I bet most of that loss is just from adding the extra conections in the coax chain and not from the Balun. You could test it with just a straight jumper, then Balun, and finaly with just the coax to the antenna.
Maybe. I don't trust the readings he got, but that is not the issue. Read my lengthly reply in the comments. This topic is far, far more complex than a viewer can be led to believe from watching this video. i.e. the choke was not being stressed at all since there was no common mode current with that setup.
Hey JR, thank you for watching. I just wanted to show a simple demo of loss in the core itself, I've got quite a few other videos showing loss in core and transmission lines if you are interested. I agree that this is't a "real world" example like FALFAL stated but I addressed his comments under his original post.
@@feeatlastfeeatlast5283 Sure as you reach saturation of the core it will affect what is going thru it. That is why you build your Balun to comfortably handle the most amount of power you could possibly be putting thru it.
@@TheSmokinApe I agree, simple test that anyone can do at home with basic equipment. I have been following your series of test and greatly enjoy and appreciat you doing them. For the "real world" this test would indeed show what you are trying to do, you just need to record the numbers while you do FT8 for like an hour.
Thank you for this format. You clearly explained the topic in a short and direct video. Streamlined information like that feels like your sinuses opening up and being able to truly take a full and fresh breath of air compared to other videos that wing it and are five times longer than they need to be. Thank you for your effort.
Hi Ape, You KNOW that I've previously stated that your videos are amongst the best because you usually perform some kind of test to produce results in order to back up what you're saying. AGAIN - Thank you for your efforts. I certainly appreciate it. In the test you did here, I can see two things that could be modified for future content. 1: Type of load The load is a dummy load, which if it is half decent quality will present 50ohm @ most frequencies. The load is not some wild impedance presented from a less than ideal antenna. As a result, the power is getting to the load and is being burned off as heat in the load, with next to nothing being returned. It stands to reason that the choke has nothing to chew on, so it can't lose something that it never "had". ANY measurement under these conditions will show next to no loss. 2: Position of measurement It wasn't 10000% clear in the video if the SWR meter was between the radio and the choke or between the choke and the load. During the test you performed, the load was as described above (1: Type of load), so the position of the meter would have no bearing on the result (no wild impedence mismatch = no return currents = nothing to measure = no loss). If, on the other hand, the load was a less than ideal antenna, it would certainly try to return some current. That current would get as far as the choke but would not continue PAST the choke. Instead, the forward and return current would form two opposing magnetic fields that would cancel out and presumably be spent as heat in the torroid (energy cannot be destroyed, only changed in form). 2A: With a less than ideal antenna, and the SWR meter between the radio and the choke, I would imagine that you would see your forward power and close to nothing returned - that is the whole point of the choke. 2B: With a less than ideal antenna, but with the SWR meter between the choke and the load, you would see your forward power and possibly quite a high return. It is likely that the forward power at that point would be somewhat less than your radio output. This would indicate the loss, no? One final thing - It would fascinating if someone were to use epoxy resin (high thermal transfer) to glue something like an LM35 temperature sensor to the torroid core and do a 1 minute TX on fairly high power to monitor temperature rise under different loads. I imagine a dummy load would show no change in temperature in the core, but a less than ideal antenna WOULD show an increase in temperature in the core. This would add weight (or take it away) to the idea of chokes being "lossy". AGAIN - no shade, no disrespect at all. Yours is one of the channels I come back to again and again.
Hey DRH, glad to know you still like the channel. I did this video because people say the balun choke is lossy, which it isn't. That's why I constructed the test the way I did. If I had used an none resonant antenna what I'd actually be measuring is the loss from SWR reflections. The Tests was RADIO > COAX > CHOKE > POWER METER > DUMMY LOAD. I actually picked up a pretty nice temperature gun so I can measure core temps in the future. Stay tuned... I don't see your questions / ciments as shade at all, I see them as a positive addition to the conversation and I thank you for that.
@@TheSmokinApe You know, I read back my initial comment, and now that I have, I missed even my OWN point! Here it is: What you measured was insertion loss with an ideal load. You PROVED that in this situation, the insertion loss is so low that you have to be carefull how you measure it. This is good info, as your test took the load out of the equation, and gave us the characteristic insertion loss on its own. What we could do with is a measurement with a non-ideal load. This will demonstrate the "loss" that people talk about. Sure, a choke will (hopefully) burn off the returned energy (as a result of the non-ideal load) as heat producing the "loss" that people talk about, but that energy was destined for our fingers and the neighbours stereo anyway. Yes, we "lose" that energy as heat, but how else can we limit the damage it was going to do? What's the alternative to chokes / baluns? RF burrns and neigbours banging on the door! I veiw it all a bit like the coolant radiator on a car. The radiator is "lossy". VERY lossy. It's supposed to be! It provides some efficiency "loss" by dumping energy as heat, but the alternative is a warped cylinder head.
Thanks man, I’ve watched all 3 of your balun videos. I’ve been a ham operator for 40 years and I’m still experimenting on all kinds of stuff. Thank you.
There is an excellent way to test this on the air live and in real time. Using a big screen monitor bring up 5 or 6 KiwiSDR receivers around US or elsewhere, tune up the transmitter on a clear frequency as heard on the Kiwis, then tune in your signal on the KiwiSDR receivers. Choose a power level that produces a signal above the mud. Start your screen recorder so you have a record of your activies. Use CW or an unmodulated FM. End of test 1. Now install the choke balun, don't change anything else - same tuning. The screen capture is logging it all. End of test 2. Now tweak your transmitter or what ever your final tuning device is. End of test 3. Too simple, no? The S meters on the KiwiSDRs will faithfully record your signal under these three setups. Finally, remove the choke balun and repeat the test to identify band condition changes. This test can reveal transmitted power loss, angle of radiation changes as a function of the choke balun in the system.
Thanks for post. I have used KiwiSDRs to compare antennas. However, is never dawned on me that this would be quick and easy way of testing if a BALUN was affecting radiation pattern on a single antenna. I suppose that a BALUN will introduce some loss. However, if it significantly improves your radiation pattern and reduces RX noise, it's good to have the BALUN.
Good stuff. I have been a General Operator for 1 year this month. I have learned a great deal from your videos. I am getting the study book for Extra next week. This is a great hobby. Ed, KM4MMD
Short video straight to the point, perfect! Thanks. I still wonder how much get lost in the connections, although the total loss being small it just can't be that much... 73 from F4LBH
Hello, Ape I'm using a 10-40 End Fed Would you recommend putting the choke at the feed point or a couple of feet away the feed line. I don't have a ground rod so no grounding here , if anything I have a chain link fence that I could use. Any thoughts on your side would be greatly appreciated 73 W3QIN
Well done Ape. It amazes me that many think there are more losses on a piece of coax wrapped around ferrite than the same piece with no ferrite. Perhaps we should teach basic physics in school like we did 50 years ago.
Read my comment above (lengthly). Heating in CM chokes is due to large CM currents in real antennas and are significantly affected by the environment. There was no CM current on his test setup because it was just a piece of coax into a non radiating, perfect load! So the test proved nothing. So, I can't agree with your first sentence.
@@feeatlastfeeatlast5283 Hi Rick. I agree with your statement that the test shown does not provide common mode return currents for the choke to block. When a choke of a very high impedance (3K ohm or more) is inserted at a specific location on the transmission line where CM current is found to be at maximum, the choke will be most efficient and attenuate most of the current flowing on the outside shield of the coax. Because there is a high impedance (in a properly designed choke), there must then also be minimal current flowing through the choke (according to Ohms Law) and thus there is also minimal heating. When the choking impedance is high, CM losses are low and the only way any imbalanced RF it can return to the transmitter is via the load of the antenna where it contributes constructively to the total radiation pattern. It has been my experience that the majority of times when a balun or choke is cooked, it is likely due to contamination (water ingress), improper use, or improper design. Sadly, there are many models that are not built with sufficient choking impedance to begin with or are misused on a band where their choking impedance is only moderate. 73 OM
@@feeatlastfeeatlast5283 Any antenna that isn't tuned and carefully constructed will have common mode currents..that is an antenna problem not a choke problem. Next, there will still be NO losses in the signal path, only losses due to undesired currents on the outside causing heating...the same currents that would be lost in wasted power anyways. So no, even if the are common mode currents and the choke gets warm the net losses are the same with or without using the choke. A properly designed antenna and a properly designed choke will not get hot or even warm and will have losses in the tents of a dB.
great job ! that good for a RG 58 U coax. it's not the toroid that makes the loss in this case . it's the coax. and for short piece a RG 58 is fine. I made mine with RG 8X and RG 400 for more power rating. I melted 8X with 1 KW . RG 400 took 1.5Kw just fine. The one showed hear is great for POTA and SOTA . you will never notice the loss. in fact it may help with the noise floor. put right at antenna if counterpoise . if coax is counterpoise put at tuner or radio. simple as that. 73's
@@TheSmokinApe get the ABR one with PL 259 to SO 239 and made with RG 400 coax. wont see a loss and rated full legal power. want N or BNC ABR makes them that way. keep testing ! lots of myth's to bust !
Interesting results, of course the cable is being bent far tighter than it should be and this can cause the centre to migrate so in theory it might vary from the designed 50 ohm characteristic impedance. That MIGHT cause some anomalies with the power measurement. Certainly none of the losses would worry me based on efficiency, however it is worth thinking of the significance of the losses, at high power, high duty cycle a common mode choke mounted in a small project box could reach quite extreme temperatures at 2.4% loss. In this test set up there should be no magnetic field induced in the ferrite, so the core should not be a source of loss. With a typical antenna set up the loss will be greater but of course difficult to replicate. Well done on the measurements 73
Hey g0fvt, thanks for watching. I don't think I would disagree with any of the points you make. I did do this test at 100w, if I was going to run legal lemit I would use a different choke.
Maybe folks want Rf on their mic line from the common mode current. They might think it makes them sound better. Then also the elevator doesn't go all the way to the top for some people! Great simple video Ape! 73
😂 Elevator doesn't go to all the way to the top floor.... I don't think I've heard before. In Britain, a similar phrase might be, "not the full shilling" or "penny short of a pound".
Would like to see it done while connected to an antenna ! Where if there were going to be any RF coming back, perhaps we might see something different ?
Love it! "You want data? Heres your data" Side note: It would be interesting to see how many chokes you could hook up, in line, before it takes it down an s-point...I suppose you could use math too but what fun is that?
Interesting results. I would expect the loss to increase with frequency, so I am puzzled about the 14Mhz result, I would have expected a loss of about 1.5%. I would like to see more results with different choke/baluns. However, the loss is insignificant for ham radio use. I just don't like outliers I can't explain.
I agree with the premise of more loss with higher frequency and was equally surprised by the 20m results. I do have a number of other videos doing similar test but they are with the NanoVNA. Thank you for watching 👍
The problem is caused by different issues, one, the source impedance of the radio could be a little off, two the directivity of the power meter is not good at this frequency and the added cable lengt caused it to read wrong, or final, a combination of both.
How does this compare with using ferrite beads? I use 4 ferrite beads at the antenna connection and 4 at the radio connection. I have no idea if it's making any kind of difference at all but I figure it couldn't hurt if anything and I have tons of them in a box anyways.
A outer jacket coax ferrite CMC suppression choke will not create any loss. The loss that you will get from the type shown is due to the connectors, this is why you use slip on beads and terminate the coax after the beads are on, this way there is no connector loss which is minute anyway.
I think the loss here was more about the rg58 than the connectors but I could be wrong. I have a bunch of videos, probably the most from a single channel, testing all kinds of baluns from a choking standpoint and insertion loss. What I have found is the toroid cores outperform the beads. Thanks for watching and for the comment Shane.
You inspired me to test my commercially available MFJ-915 in-line RF Suppressor and it has more insertion loss and less suppression then a wrapped 31 like yours. MFJ-915 suppression average was -15 db and an RG-8X wrapped 31 was -25 db. Q- Can you choke it too much? I am talking about RF suppression. Thanks APE!!
Ok next questions. Is it necessary to even use a balun for a perfect match like a dummy load? What happens to the loss when the swr goes up? What frequencies is that even capable of choking?
Here's a video where I cover the frequency coverage of this and another core: ruclips.net/video/1D9XpXWZ_a8/видео.html I sue this exact core with success on and antenna with 10:1 puls swr.
@@TheSmokinApe I appreciate the videos and response. I think there are a lot of variables in testing baluns that still leaves me with more questions! This video series gets out in the weeds a bit. I am sure you have seen it. ruclips.net/video/kMlKfHHR8FY/видео.html
My Nano VNA is my SWR meter. 🧐 But yeah, makes sense for these choke baluns as the shielding is like a VPN tunnel. I do wonder about the losses in a 9:1 unun though. Cheers.
Hey WR3ND. I think the NanoVNA is technically a Network Analyzer that we use to characterize antennas, one of those characterizations is SWR. When I think of an SWR meter, it's something that I use inline with my transceiver to get realtime SWR measurements. But I get your point. Here is a video, I do have others, that show loss from 9:1 unun's, hope its helpful. Thanks for watching and for the comment 👍
Thank for measurement. I think Your very small loses are from connectors. Myth are growing where basic physical knowledge is not assimilated. One "RUclips expert " show antenna installation in a truck and gives advice "if you have too long cable, NEVER ROLL in a loop because of COLOSSAL LOSES - lay down freely in zigzag". Without physics hards to distinguish in a brain common vs differential current.
Good video. I liked its objective data. Can you provide an objective way to compare antenna setups? SWR is just one small part of what goes into having a good antenna setup. For example a dummy load might give us a perfect SWR. I am a new ham, and haven't gotten to digital modes yet, although I want to in the next few months. My guess is that using some some digital modes and/or and beacons, might be a good way to objectively see which of two antenna configurations is best, and by how much. I could envision two antenna configurations with the same feed line lengths going to a switch and we first check antenna A and somehow measure reception and transmission on it (and maybe count contact in 5 minutes or signal strength) and then we switch to antenna B and measure reception and transmission on it (maybe count contact in 5 minutes or signal strength). This methodology might also be useful when checking things like whether X radial configuration or Y radial configuration is best. I understand you might need to do this a few times to remove changes due to propagation conditions during the 10 minutes of the two tests.
A while back you had a video where you were trying to come up with a better EFHW design. You had the standard design with the 49:1 transformer and the capacitor on the feed end and you were looking at a design with the capacitor on the antenna end. I followed that and I was interested in what you would find. I don't think you ever resolve it. If you ever did build the second EFHW design you could test them both with this switch idea if you find something you can objectively measure for transmit and receive strength.
You can use PSKReporter to see how strong your signals are being used when doing digital mones, it will also let you observes propagation patterns. For voice or SSB use websdr.org and you can choose different SDR stations to listen to or record your audio.
People who say they don't work and aren't necessary will someday be pulling their hair out trying to fix a problem a chock would fix. I had an RF problem and today every wire and cord has chocks on them.
Have to admit I had to go back to the beginning. Excessive loss, "excessive" being the key word, there is loss, but in my opinion it is not excessive. 😂😂😂😂
Most of the loss stems from the added length of the RG58 not from the balun losses. Get a simple piece of the same quality (a lot of RG58 sux) and the same length of the coax on the balun and have it in your setup for the control measurement. Then remove that piece and insert the balun. Otherwise your numbers will be off. Especially with the poor directivity of the average ham radio power meters. Any change of cable length between the source and the load will cause meters to read wrong if the directivity isn't there. This also explains why the numbers of your test vs. frequency do not follow common sense.
Let's say you go to your bank. You say that you have $100 in that bank and you want to withdraw it. The bank says, "Great, here's your $98. Have a fine day." You ask where that 2% went to. They responded "glad you asked. It's losses due to common mode withdrawals. It's not really much. We didn't think you would really miss $2 out of $100". You indicate that you actually do and you ask what you get in return for losing that money. They respond "It's complicated, but trust me, you're better off without that $2". Are you... A. Satisfied since you aren't a financial genius or B. Dissatisfied and you really want every penny you deserve I know where I am. There's too many schmucks out there ready and willing to be played.
Howdy Jerry. When you put it like that you make me think ad bit... I would be OK with the 2$ if I felt I was getting value for the 2$ but in this example I don't think I am so I would be upset. What I have noticed when operating is that I do experience negative effects from CMC entering my ham shack. For example, my radio is permanently connect to my computer, without the choke my computer will freeze or crash or make odd sounds when I transmit. With the choke it doesn't happen and I am fine "paying" the 2.4% for this to not happen. Also, depending on my antenna, I have see a drop in my noise floor when using this choke which gave me a better signal to noise ratio, I'm fine paying the 2.4% for that as well. I get that the lost in a real world setup vs my controlled test is likely higher... but I am still OK with that. In closing, I'm prolly not a financial genius and a bit of a schmuck. As always, thank you for watching and for the comment...
@@TheSmokinApe common mode is the mathematical difference between the voltage of two lines on transmission line. What you are referring to is the reflected current that you can reduce by making your transmission line more lossy rather than finding the proper matching at the antenna feed point and correcting the issue properly. Here's another concern. If the 'roids are eating the 2% and the amateur radio operator is running 1.5kW, is that 'roid ready to eat 30W? That's if the 'roid is acting in the linear portion and not near saturation. It's gonna be more loss when you are saturating. My whole point is we are amateurs. We passed our exams and we are exposed to simulation software and incredible measurement devices like the nanoVNA that tells you what you need to know about making corrections. We can discuss that or we may as well just watch stupid cat videos. I've never met a feline who made up crap like commode currents. Jerry N9XR
Hey Ape, Rick, K2XT here. You put up a catchy title, hinting there was some myth to be debunked. Then you made a simple test in an environment that doesn't require a balun. Your balun there on your bench doesn't see any common mode current from the non-radiating load; therefore it is not being stressed at all. The only possible losses would come from the lousy, lossy rg58 and the way you have it wound so tight on that core. Others have suggested, why didn't you measure the loss of the rg58 alone and you should see some little loss that is greater on 10 meters than 80. So, you didn't really analyze or provide the newbie viewer with a reason for your conclusion. Since you tried to convince the viewer that CM chokes don't have much loss and let them go away with that little jewel of technical fact how then do you explain why some CM choke vendors sell "2 kw" and even "5 kw" chokes, with multiple stacked cores? Why 5 kw? Because the 2 kw ones are burning up, so throw a bigger choke at the problem. DXE will be happy to take your money. So, in conclusion, you claim to have debunked a myth but in reality the viewer is no closer to understanding what is really going on in their antenna system. i.e. what effect the feedline length from feedpoint to where it is grounded has on the common mode impedance of the outer shield. When that is understood and evaluated then the reason why CM chokes heat up at all can be explained. Until that is accomplished "myths" will continue. Agree? Here's what's going to happen - someone watches this video, believes this puts the issue of choke losses to bed (just look at the comments to see how quickly they became convinced and give 5 thumbs up for the video). Then he puts up a OCF or G5RV and his choke heats up and maybe cracks the core due to horrendous CM current. "But wait, Ape said losses are a myth, why did DXE say I need a bigger CM choke, a 5 kw model?" Sending warmest 73, Rick K2XT ps This topic is quite complex
Hey Rick. I agree, the coax is the lossy part... I have a buch of vides showing coax and core loss. I also agree that the core isn't stressed, but I was responding to comments that this types of chokes are lossy and I'm fairly certain that you would agree that a ft240-31 isn't going to get stressed to a failure point from 100w. I think your example of running 5kw into a G5RV is a leap at best. This video shows a core at 100w... and I'm sure it's going to be fine at 100w into a G5RV.
In what way? When a ground and signal line pass through the transformer equally without any connection between the center pin and ground it's a balun. An unun has a jumper connecting the center pin and ground.
@@MentalWhiplash Agree to disagree. Balun is BALanced UNbalanced. This choke is unbalanced on both ends: UNUN. A balun might have jumpers, but it is not necessary.
This was a completely pointless exercise as there is no interaction between the signal in the coax and the core it is wound around and therefore it could not ever have shown any loss. Either Ape doesn't know this, because he doesn't understand what's going on, or he does know this and is playing silly games. Either way, the clown show continues...
Of course I knew that’s what’s gonna happen, in the beginning of the video I expanded that and why I did the video. Maybe you didn’t watch or understand…. lol don’t know which.
I bet most of that loss is just from adding the extra conections in the coax chain and not from the Balun. You could test it with just a straight jumper, then Balun, and finaly with just the coax to the antenna.
Maybe. I don't trust the readings he got, but that is not the issue.
Read my lengthly reply in the comments. This topic is far, far more complex than a viewer can be led to believe from watching this video. i.e. the choke was not being stressed at all since there was no common mode current with that setup.
Hey JR, thank you for watching. I just wanted to show a simple demo of loss in the core itself, I've got quite a few other videos showing loss in core and transmission lines if you are interested. I agree that this is't a "real world" example like FALFAL stated but I addressed his comments under his original post.
@@feeatlastfeeatlast5283 Sure as you reach saturation of the core it will affect what is going thru it. That is why you build your Balun to comfortably handle the most amount of power you could possibly be putting thru it.
@@TheSmokinApe I agree, simple test that anyone can do at home with basic equipment. I have been following your series of test and greatly enjoy and appreciat you doing them. For the "real world" this test would indeed show what you are trying to do, you just need to record the numbers while you do FT8 for like an hour.
That's what I was going to add. I am actually planning on building one for the portable equipment.
Thank you for this format. You clearly explained the topic in a short and direct video. Streamlined information like that feels like your sinuses opening up and being able to truly take a full and fresh breath of air compared to other videos that wing it and are five times longer than they need to be. Thank you for your effort.
Thanks Craig, glad you liked it 👍
I've been a HAM for 105 years and you just proved me wrong!😅👍🍺
lol Don
+-40%
Nice job. You've been killing it lately with well prepared and presenting content. You are becoming one of my most respected ham-tubers.
Awesome, glad to hear you like the videos 👍
He's at the top of my list of Elmer's!
@@ka6psdrbeswick709 👍
Hi Ape,
You KNOW that I've previously stated that your videos are amongst the best because you usually perform some kind of test to produce results in order to back up what you're saying. AGAIN - Thank you for your efforts. I certainly appreciate it.
In the test you did here, I can see two things that could be modified for future content.
1: Type of load
The load is a dummy load, which if it is half decent quality will present 50ohm @ most frequencies.
The load is not some wild impedance presented from a less than ideal antenna.
As a result, the power is getting to the load and is being burned off as heat in the load, with next to nothing being returned. It stands to reason that the choke has nothing to chew on, so it can't lose something that it never "had".
ANY measurement under these conditions will show next to no loss.
2: Position of measurement
It wasn't 10000% clear in the video if the SWR meter was between the radio and the choke or between the choke and the load.
During the test you performed, the load was as described above (1: Type of load), so the position of the meter would have no bearing on the result (no wild impedence mismatch = no return currents = nothing to measure = no loss).
If, on the other hand, the load was a less than ideal antenna, it would certainly try to return some current. That current would get as far as the choke but would not continue PAST the choke. Instead, the forward and return current would form two opposing magnetic fields that would cancel out and presumably be spent as heat in the torroid (energy cannot be destroyed, only changed in form).
2A: With a less than ideal antenna, and the SWR meter between the radio and the choke, I would imagine that you would see your forward power and close to nothing returned - that is the whole point of the choke.
2B: With a less than ideal antenna, but with the SWR meter between the choke and the load, you would see your forward power and possibly quite a high return. It is likely that the forward power at that point would be somewhat less than your radio output. This would indicate the loss, no?
One final thing - It would fascinating if someone were to use epoxy resin (high thermal transfer) to glue something like an LM35 temperature sensor to the torroid core and do a 1 minute TX on fairly high power to monitor temperature rise under different loads.
I imagine a dummy load would show no change in temperature in the core, but a less than ideal antenna WOULD show an increase in temperature in the core. This would add weight (or take it away) to the idea of chokes being "lossy".
AGAIN - no shade, no disrespect at all. Yours is one of the channels I come back to again and again.
Hey DRH, glad to know you still like the channel.
I did this video because people say the balun choke is lossy, which it isn't. That's why I constructed the test the way I did. If I had used an none resonant antenna what I'd actually be measuring is the loss from SWR reflections.
The Tests was RADIO > COAX > CHOKE > POWER METER > DUMMY LOAD.
I actually picked up a pretty nice temperature gun so I can measure core temps in the future. Stay tuned...
I don't see your questions / ciments as shade at all, I see them as a positive addition to the conversation and I thank you for that.
@@TheSmokinApe
You know, I read back my initial comment, and now that I have, I missed even my OWN point!
Here it is:
What you measured was insertion loss with an ideal load. You PROVED that in this situation, the insertion loss is so low that you have to be carefull how you measure it. This is good info, as your test took the load out of the equation, and gave us the characteristic insertion loss on its own.
What we could do with is a measurement with a non-ideal load. This will demonstrate the "loss" that people talk about. Sure, a choke will (hopefully) burn off the returned energy (as a result of the non-ideal load) as heat producing the "loss" that people talk about, but that energy was destined for our fingers and the neighbours stereo anyway.
Yes, we "lose" that energy as heat, but how else can we limit the damage it was going to do?
What's the alternative to chokes / baluns?
RF burrns and neigbours banging on the door!
I veiw it all a bit like the coolant radiator on a car. The radiator is "lossy". VERY lossy. It's supposed to be! It provides some efficiency "loss" by dumping energy as heat, but the alternative is a warped cylinder head.
Thanks man, I’ve watched all 3 of your balun videos. I’ve been a ham operator for 40 years and I’m still experimenting on all kinds of stuff. Thank you.
Hey n7kme, thank you for watching. I hope they are helpful 👍
@@TheSmokinApe pretty much every thing you do is helpful one way or another. Keep up the good work!
@@n7kme thank you
Another great video. Straight to the point and using straight forward language. THANKS
Thanks bduff, glad you liked it 👍
There is an excellent way to test this on the air live and in real time. Using a big screen monitor bring up 5 or 6 KiwiSDR receivers around US or elsewhere, tune up the transmitter on a clear frequency as heard on the Kiwis, then tune in your signal on the KiwiSDR receivers. Choose a power level that produces a signal above the mud. Start your screen recorder so you have a record of your activies. Use CW or an unmodulated FM. End of test 1. Now install the choke balun, don't change anything else - same tuning. The screen capture is logging it all. End of test 2. Now tweak your transmitter or what ever your final tuning device is. End of test 3. Too simple, no? The S meters on the KiwiSDRs will faithfully record your signal under these three setups. Finally, remove the choke balun and repeat the test to identify band condition changes. This test can reveal transmitted power loss, angle of radiation changes as a function of the choke balun in the system.
Great idea LGITW, thank you!
Thanks for post. I have used KiwiSDRs to compare antennas. However, is never dawned on me that this would be quick and easy way of testing if a BALUN was affecting radiation pattern on a single antenna. I suppose that a BALUN will introduce some loss. However, if it significantly improves your radiation pattern and reduces RX noise, it's good to have the BALUN.
Good stuff. I have been a General Operator for 1 year this month. I have learned a great deal from your videos. I am getting the study book for Extra next week. This is a great hobby. Ed, KM4MMD
Good luck on the test and glad to hear the channel is helpful 👍
Short video straight to the point, perfect! Thanks. I still wonder how much get lost in the connections, although the total loss being small it just can't be that much... 73 from F4LBH
Hey Jean, I’m sure most of the loss seen here is from the coax 👍
Thanks Ape! Another great video. I think we get hyper focused on every nth of a Db instead of the noticeable result.
We sure do, thanks for watching 👍
Thanks for the video...this one and others. As a starter I appreciate them tremendously.
Glad you like them, thank you for watching!
Thank you so much The Smokin Ape☺️
Thank you for watching Mary.
Nice to know Ape ... Got a choke like that over here too ... thx ;)
Thanks for watching Jan 👍
Hello, Ape
I'm using a 10-40 End Fed
Would you recommend putting the choke at the feed point or a couple of feet away the feed line. I don't have a ground rod so no grounding here , if anything I have a chain link fence that I could use. Any thoughts on your side would be greatly appreciated 73 W3QIN
Thank you Sir. I learned a lot. Be interesting to repeat this on an “ugly “ balun ie several turns of coax taped together.
Hey Chris. I’m not a fan of ugly baluns, they are very narrow banded and difficult to tune as a result 👍
@@TheSmokinApe Thank you again, more rules of thumb to add to the mental tool box.
Well done Ape. It amazes me that many think there are more losses on a piece of coax wrapped around ferrite than the same piece with no ferrite. Perhaps we should teach basic physics in school like we did 50 years ago.
Perhaps we should. "but them bends slow down mah watts"
Read my comment above (lengthly). Heating in CM chokes is due to large CM currents in real antennas and are significantly affected by the environment. There was no CM current on his test setup because it was just a piece of coax into a non radiating, perfect load! So the test proved nothing.
So, I can't agree with your first sentence.
Sorry for no ID. This is Rick, K2XT
@@feeatlastfeeatlast5283 Hi Rick. I agree with your statement that the test shown does not provide common mode return currents for the choke to block.
When a choke of a very high impedance (3K ohm or more) is inserted at a specific location on the transmission line where CM current is found to be at maximum, the choke will be most efficient and attenuate most of the current flowing on the outside shield of the coax. Because there is a high impedance (in a properly designed choke), there must then also be minimal current flowing through the choke (according to Ohms Law) and thus there is also minimal heating. When the choking impedance is high, CM losses are low and the only way any imbalanced RF it can return to the transmitter is via the load of the antenna where it contributes constructively to the total radiation pattern.
It has been my experience that the majority of times when a balun or choke is cooked, it is likely due to contamination (water ingress), improper use, or improper design. Sadly, there are many models that are not built with sufficient choking impedance to begin with or are misused on a band where their choking impedance is only moderate.
73 OM
@@feeatlastfeeatlast5283 Any antenna that isn't tuned and carefully constructed will have common mode currents..that is an antenna problem not a choke problem. Next, there will still be NO losses in the signal path, only losses due to undesired currents on the outside causing heating...the same currents that would be lost in wasted power anyways. So no, even if the are common mode currents and the choke gets warm the net losses are the same with or without using the choke. A properly designed antenna and a properly designed choke will not get hot or even warm and will have losses in the tents of a dB.
great job ! that good for a RG 58 U coax. it's not the toroid that makes the loss in this case . it's the coax. and for short piece a RG 58 is fine. I made mine with RG 8X and RG 400 for more power rating. I melted 8X with 1 KW . RG 400 took 1.5Kw just fine. The one showed hear is great for POTA and SOTA . you will never notice the loss. in fact it may help with the noise floor. put right at antenna if counterpoise . if coax is counterpoise put at tuner or radio. simple as that. 73's
Hey Robert. I agree the loss was mostly due to the coax and in the case of improved noise floor I get better Signal to Noise.
@@TheSmokinApe get the ABR one with PL 259 to SO 239 and made with RG 400 coax. wont see a loss and rated full legal power. want N or BNC ABR makes them that way. keep testing ! lots of myth's to bust !
Yeah, the ABR stuff is great 👍
The benefits greatly outweigh the loss!! Nice job Ape!!
Yeah, it's minimal at best. Thanks for watching BA 👍
Thanks for this test
Thanks for watching WB 👍
This, this is vindication!!! Well played, good Sir, well played!!!
lol, thanks for watching Dewayne
Would there be more loss on vhf and up?
If so would today be a factor of the choke or the rg58 used on this choke?
Awesome video!!
The loss is dependent on the core makeup and the coax. you would need to see what works best for your band of interest.
Always informative, great video
Thanks Chris!
Thanks Ape. Good video!
Thanks David 👍
Interesting results, of course the cable is being bent far tighter than it should be and this can cause the centre to migrate so in theory it might vary from the designed 50 ohm characteristic impedance. That MIGHT cause some anomalies with the power measurement. Certainly none of the losses would worry me based on efficiency, however it is worth thinking of the significance of the losses, at high power, high duty cycle a common mode choke mounted in a small project box could reach quite extreme temperatures at 2.4% loss. In this test set up there should be no magnetic field induced in the ferrite, so the core should not be a source of loss. With a typical antenna set up the loss will be greater but of course difficult to replicate.
Well done on the measurements 73
Hey g0fvt, thanks for watching. I don't think I would disagree with any of the points you make. I did do this test at 100w, if I was going to run legal lemit I would use a different choke.
Thanks again, Ape!
Thanks for watching James!
Maybe folks want Rf on their mic line from the common mode current. They might think it makes them sound better. Then also the elevator doesn't go all the way to the top for some people! Great simple video Ape! 73
LOL, thanks for watching bro...
😂 Elevator doesn't go to all the way to the top floor.... I don't think I've heard before. In Britain, a similar phrase might be, "not the full shilling" or "penny short of a pound".
Would there be any advantage or disadvantage to high power cureent balun with a qrp rig. Say a 5kw balun with 5 watts. Other than cost.
It wouldn't be a problem.
Nice job, Ape, thanks!
Thanks for watching MJ 👍
Would like to see it done while connected to an antenna !
Where if there were going to be any RF coming back, perhaps we might see something different ?
I use this same choke on my antenna and the loss is minimal.
Love it! "You want data? Heres your data"
Side note: It would be interesting to see how many chokes you could hook up, in line, before it takes it down an s-point...I suppose you could use math too but what fun is that?
Can't argue with the data so the Ham Police will say I tested incorrectly. The amount it would take to get to an S-Unit = shit load.
@@TheSmokinApe 😆 @ Shit load! When it comes to the Ham Police.. I think the NWA album still applies
@@AndyAAzeroAM lol
Hi Ape, is this power meter (NISSEI) very accurate and recommended?
Yeah, it’s pretty good 👍
Thanks.
Interesting results. I would expect the loss to increase with frequency, so I am puzzled about the 14Mhz result, I would have expected a loss of about 1.5%. I would like to see more results with different choke/baluns. However, the loss is insignificant for ham radio use. I just don't like outliers I can't explain.
I agree with the premise of more loss with higher frequency and was equally surprised by the 20m results. I do have a number of other videos doing similar test but they are with the NanoVNA. Thank you for watching 👍
I also wondered about this. Maybe taking a several readings at different frequencies across each band would have given a better sample?
The problem is caused by different issues, one, the source impedance of the radio could be a little off, two the directivity of the power meter is not good at this frequency and the added cable lengt caused it to read wrong, or final, a combination of both.
And how much of that power was coming back on the braid w/o balun
How does this compare with using ferrite beads? I use 4 ferrite beads at the antenna connection and 4 at the radio connection. I have no idea if it's making any kind of difference at all but I figure it couldn't hurt if anything and I have tons of them in a box anyways.
Hey TTK, bead work fine and that's what I would use if thats all I had. In my tests the core do perform a little better but you're fine with beads.
A outer jacket coax ferrite CMC suppression choke will not create any loss. The loss that you will get from the type shown is due to the connectors, this is why you use slip on beads and terminate the coax after the beads are on, this way there is no connector loss which is minute anyway.
I think the loss here was more about the rg58 than the connectors but I could be wrong. I have a bunch of videos, probably the most from a single channel, testing all kinds of baluns from a choking standpoint and insertion loss. What I have found is the toroid cores outperform the beads. Thanks for watching and for the comment Shane.
Good video. if you use 2 torrid rings. will the loss be bigger???????
It would be but the real value in using more cores would allow for higher power levels.
How about the loss of the short balun coax WITHOUT the ferrite core? How much of your W/ Balun loss was from connectors and coax?
I’m fairly confident most of the loss you saw was because of the coax.
You inspired me to test my commercially available MFJ-915 in-line RF Suppressor and it has more insertion loss and less suppression then a wrapped 31 like yours. MFJ-915 suppression average was -15 db and an RG-8X wrapped 31 was -25 db. Q- Can you choke it too much? I am talking about RF suppression. Thanks APE!!
Hey TB, I don't think you can... you will be subject to the law of diminishing returns.
Ok next questions. Is it necessary to even use a balun for a perfect match like a dummy load? What happens to the loss when the swr goes up? What frequencies is that even capable of choking?
Here's a video where I cover the frequency coverage of this and another core: ruclips.net/video/1D9XpXWZ_a8/видео.html
I sue this exact core with success on and antenna with 10:1 puls swr.
@@TheSmokinApe I appreciate the videos and response. I think there are a lot of variables in testing baluns that still leaves me with more questions! This video series gets out in the weeds a bit. I am sure you have seen it. ruclips.net/video/kMlKfHHR8FY/видео.html
My Nano VNA is my SWR meter. 🧐
But yeah, makes sense for these choke baluns as the shielding is like a VPN tunnel. I do wonder about the losses in a 9:1 unun though.
Cheers.
Hey WR3ND. I think the NanoVNA is technically a Network Analyzer that we use to characterize antennas, one of those characterizations is SWR. When I think of an SWR meter, it's something that I use inline with my transceiver to get realtime SWR measurements. But I get your point. Here is a video, I do have others, that show loss from 9:1 unun's, hope its helpful.
Thanks for watching and for the comment 👍
@@TheSmokinApe Thanks. I'll check your channel again - I've probably even seen them and just forgot the figures. Cheers buddy. Have a great weekend!
@@WR3ND thanks man, you too 👍
THIS is an excellent banana peel slap (I'ma keep usin' it til you do....lol)
LOL, thanks for watching MW 👍
Given an S-point is 6dB =75% loss your highest loss of 2.5% is therefore 1/30th of an S-point. As you say TOTALLY NEGLIGIBLE.
ANd people get upset over that. Thanks for watching SP 👍
Thank for measurement. I think Your very small loses are from connectors. Myth are growing where basic physical knowledge is not assimilated. One "RUclips expert " show antenna installation in a truck and gives advice "if you have too long cable, NEVER ROLL in a loop because of COLOSSAL LOSES - lay down freely in zigzag". Without physics hards to distinguish in a brain common vs differential current.
Haha, thank you for the comment 👍
Given the magnetic field is completely cancelled in the core, it's invisible. For reference, 1% loss is 0.05db, sweet bugger all :)
Thanks for watching Chris 👍
Good video. I liked its objective data. Can you provide an objective way to compare antenna setups? SWR is just one small part of what goes into having a good antenna setup. For example a dummy load might give us a perfect SWR. I am a new ham, and haven't gotten to digital modes yet, although I want to in the next few months. My guess is that using some some digital modes and/or and beacons, might be a good way to objectively see which of two antenna configurations is best, and by how much. I could envision two antenna configurations with the same feed line lengths going to a switch and we first check antenna A and somehow measure reception and transmission on it (and maybe count contact in 5 minutes or signal strength) and then we switch to antenna B and measure reception and transmission on it (maybe count contact in 5 minutes or signal strength). This methodology might also be useful when checking things like whether X radial configuration or Y radial configuration is best. I understand you might need to do this a few times to remove changes due to propagation conditions during the 10 minutes of the two tests.
A while back you had a video where you were trying to come up with a better EFHW design. You had the standard design with the 49:1 transformer and the capacitor on the feed end and you were looking at a design with the capacitor on the antenna end. I followed that and I was interested in what you would find. I don't think you ever resolve it. If you ever did build the second EFHW design you could test them both with this switch idea if you find something you can objectively measure for transmit and receive strength.
You can use PSKReporter to see how strong your signals are being used when doing digital mones, it will also let you observes propagation patterns. For voice or SSB use websdr.org and you can choose different SDR stations to listen to or record your audio.
I haven't messed with the EFHW in some time, once I do and get it working I will do a video. Thank you for watching Cary 👍
People who say they don't work and aren't necessary will someday be pulling their hair out trying to fix a problem a chock would fix. I had an RF problem and today every wire and cord has chocks on them.
Agreed 100%
BOOM! -Mic drop!
lol
I wonder if the 10 meter loss would come down if a different mix was used.
Hey Paul, the coax RG58 is more lossy at higher frequencies which I'm sure plays a role. Thanks for watching and for the comment 👍
Indeed it's prudent to NOT get too wrapped around the torroid about loss.....😂
That's a good one Watt
Have to admit I had to go back to the beginning. Excessive loss, "excessive" being the key word, there is loss, but in my opinion it is not excessive. 😂😂😂😂
Agreed, thanks for watching Big John 👍
@@TheSmokinApe anytime brother.
Most of the loss stems from the added length of the RG58 not from the balun losses. Get a simple piece of the same quality (a lot of RG58 sux) and the same length of the coax on the balun and have it in your setup for the control measurement. Then remove that piece and insert the balun. Otherwise your numbers will be off. Especially with the poor directivity of the average ham radio power meters. Any change of cable length between the source and the load will cause meters to read wrong if the directivity isn't there. This also explains why the numbers of your test vs. frequency do not follow common sense.
I’d agree 100%, thanks for checking out the video GJ 👍
I'm wondering if Ape would get the same results by just adding the same the same length of cable that was wrapped around the toroid?
yes
I'm sure it would be close...
Let's say you go to your bank. You say that you have $100 in that bank and you want to withdraw it. The bank says, "Great, here's your $98. Have a fine day."
You ask where that 2% went to.
They responded "glad you asked. It's losses due to common mode withdrawals. It's not really much. We didn't think you would really miss $2 out of $100".
You indicate that you actually do and you ask what you get in return for losing that money.
They respond "It's complicated, but trust me, you're better off without that $2".
Are you...
A. Satisfied since you aren't a financial genius or
B. Dissatisfied and you really want every penny you deserve
I know where I am. There's too many schmucks out there ready and willing to be played.
Howdy Jerry. When you put it like that you make me think ad bit... I would be OK with the 2$ if I felt I was getting value for the 2$ but in this example I don't think I am so I would be upset.
What I have noticed when operating is that I do experience negative effects from CMC entering my ham shack. For example, my radio is permanently connect to my computer, without the choke my computer will freeze or crash or make odd sounds when I transmit. With the choke it doesn't happen and I am fine "paying" the 2.4% for this to not happen.
Also, depending on my antenna, I have see a drop in my noise floor when using this choke which gave me a better signal to noise ratio, I'm fine paying the 2.4% for that as well. I get that the lost in a real world setup vs my controlled test is likely higher... but I am still OK with that.
In closing, I'm prolly not a financial genius and a bit of a schmuck. As always, thank you for watching and for the comment...
@@TheSmokinApe common mode is the mathematical difference between the voltage of two lines on transmission line. What you are referring to is the reflected current that you can reduce by making your transmission line more lossy rather than finding the proper matching at the antenna feed point and correcting the issue properly.
Here's another concern. If the 'roids are eating the 2% and the amateur radio operator is running 1.5kW, is that 'roid ready to eat 30W? That's if the 'roid is acting in the linear portion and not near saturation. It's gonna be more loss when you are saturating.
My whole point is we are amateurs. We passed our exams and we are exposed to simulation software and incredible measurement devices like the nanoVNA that tells you what you need to know about making corrections. We can discuss that or we may as well just watch stupid cat videos. I've never met a feline who made up crap like commode currents.
Jerry N9XR
Did I just hear ape go from watts to db to claim a difference is small? ;)
Haha
Good video, unfortunately the Ham Police will believe what they want.
True.
EEEEE AWWWWW EEEEE AWWWWW PULL OVER DRIVER. You dropped a billionth of a dB back there. Here's your fine.
The ham cops probably have a warrant out for you now. What size toroid is that?
The probably do. It’s a ft240-31 👍
Hey Ape, Rick, K2XT here. You put up a catchy title, hinting there was some myth to be debunked.
Then you made a simple test in an environment that doesn't require a balun. Your balun there on your bench doesn't see any common mode current from the non-radiating load; therefore it is not being stressed at all. The only possible losses would come from the lousy, lossy rg58 and the way you have it wound so tight on that core.
Others have suggested, why didn't you measure the loss of the rg58 alone and you should see some little loss that is greater on 10 meters than 80. So, you didn't really analyze or provide the newbie viewer with a reason for your conclusion.
Since you tried to convince the viewer that CM chokes don't have much loss and let them go away with that little jewel of technical fact how then do you explain why some CM choke vendors sell "2 kw" and even "5 kw" chokes, with multiple stacked cores? Why 5 kw? Because the 2 kw ones are burning up, so throw a bigger choke at the problem. DXE will be happy to take your money.
So, in conclusion, you claim to have debunked a myth but in reality the viewer is no closer to understanding what is really going on in their antenna system. i.e. what effect the feedline length from feedpoint to where it is grounded has on the common mode impedance of the outer shield. When that is understood and evaluated then the reason why CM chokes heat up at all can be explained. Until that is accomplished "myths" will continue.
Agree? Here's what's going to happen - someone watches this video, believes this puts the issue of choke losses to bed (just look at the comments to see how quickly they became convinced and give 5 thumbs up for the video). Then he puts up a OCF or G5RV and his choke heats up and maybe cracks the core due to horrendous CM current. "But wait, Ape said losses are a myth, why did DXE say I need a bigger CM choke, a 5 kw model?"
Sending warmest 73,
Rick K2XT
ps This topic is quite complex
Hey Rick. I agree, the coax is the lossy part... I have a buch of vides showing coax and core loss. I also agree that the core isn't stressed, but I was responding to comments that this types of chokes are lossy and I'm fairly certain that you would agree that a ft240-31 isn't going to get stressed to a failure point from 100w. I think your example of running 5kw into a G5RV is a leap at best. This video shows a core at 100w... and I'm sure it's going to be fine at 100w into a G5RV.
HAve to wait 5 minutes for all the dam adds!
Sorry N0VTY
@@TheSmokinApe I liked the video, I try to explain to some that the loss is so minimal, might as well talk to a brick wall.
RIght, the same people will have an antenna 8 feet off the ground
@@TheSmokinApe That high? Oh god don't get me started!
Lol
👍👍👍
Glad you liked it MWW 👍
It's a choke not a balun, it transforms nothing!
ruclips.net/video/SifQ32f5ocQ/видео.html
As always, time VERY well spent watching - for me - thank you. KQ4IXD
Thanks FM 👍
Looks more like an unun, not a balun, but that's just me.
In what way? When a ground and signal line pass through the transformer equally without any connection between the center pin and ground it's a balun. An unun has a jumper connecting the center pin and ground.
@@MentalWhiplash Agree to disagree. Balun is BALanced UNbalanced. This choke is unbalanced on both ends: UNUN. A balun might have jumpers, but it is not necessary.
@@LeeMcc_KI5YPR if the choke is successful at reducing common mode current to a "negligible level" the output side can be argued to be balanced.
@@g0fvt I will stick with unun since both ends are the same. A balun means the ends are different. Its fine. We don't have to agree. 😙
Lee, I thought you were making a joke because of this video: ruclips.net/video/vnQ7u1g-aFo/видео.html
This was a completely pointless exercise as there is no interaction between the signal in the coax and the core it is wound around and therefore it could not ever have shown any loss. Either Ape doesn't know this, because he doesn't understand what's going on, or he does know this and is playing silly games. Either way, the clown show continues...
Of course I knew that’s what’s gonna happen, in the beginning of the video I expanded that and why I did the video. Maybe you didn’t watch or understand…. lol don’t know which.
Boom Ape 🦧. Busted 😊 well done 73 man
Thanks for watching 👍