I remember as a kid what a build up to bringing back Star Trek was, we were were getting by with Space 1999 and re-runs . It was a thrill to see the old crew together again, but most of the audience was expecting Star Wars . I was listening to a podcast about someone who claimed to work on the movie that in the earlier versions it was Quetzalcoatl (Kukulkan) which came back, which was shelved and put into the animated series . Great work getting into the mythology .
I loved Space: 1999 when I was a kid, and I still have the Moonbase Eagle ship that I got for Christmas way back in '76. Unfortunately the series has not held up for me, but I still try to watch it every so often! Back in the '70s it seemed like Star Trek would never return, and I was so excited when it finally did! I remember seeing it in the theater on a cold December night when I was 9, and it left me with a weird, cold feeling inside too. But I've always been fascinated by the movie, and I love it! Didn't know that they were considering using Quetzalcoatl instead of Voyager. That would have giving the movie quite a different feel!
As I emerged from the cinema back in '79 my 15 year old self concluded that although I was glad to see our heroic crews return, enjoyed being dazzled by great SFX that were state of the art at the time plus the exquisite score...it was basically a massively expensive re-run of the Changeling. I still love it though.
Another excellent comparison video presented with your typical aplomb! I really appreciate all the sound effects and visuals you incorporate into your videos. Your videos are so much more engaging than they would be if we were simply staring at a still photo. And your dialogue matches what we see and hear perfectly. In this video, I especially appreciated the multiple screens demonstrating the frequent recurrence on the key words (i.e., creator). Thank you for putting so much effort into what you do. It is interesting that one of the main themes throughout TOS is the conflict between man and machine, which concludes time and again by showing us that man is superior to machines (proven when inevitably the machine in question self destructs). Although toward the end of TOS, in “Requiem,” the series showed that through love a machine could--almost--become a human being. TMP seems to be the final time in ST where this conflict is shown, and the film revisited the idea of machine evolution first hinted at in "Requiem" by having Decker’s sacrifice enable V’ger (and Decker) to not only equal, but to transcend the limits of humanity. Interestingly in TNG, the man versus machine theme has been completely dropped in favor of the (now taken for granted) belief that machines (represented by Data) could become human or at least very human-like. TMP is the thematic bridge that makes this new ST reality possible. Many people would considerTMP to be a bloated version of “The Changeling,” but since I saw TMP many times and many years before I saw "The Changeling," I consider it to be the reverse: that "The Changeling" is a less expensive and less imaginative version of the movie ("The Changeling" is still a great episode, but as you show in this video, they are so similar it’s hard not to compare). I do enjoy Nomad’s computer voice, but it's hard to ignore the fact that Nomad is actually smaller than a human being, and it is hard to imagine it being able to destroy all life on Earth. V'ger, however, is immense and potentially highly destructive. Plus V'ger had, in a way and on its own, already gained so much knowledge that it has essentially already become human (as Kirk admits in the film). Gaining knowledge, wanted to improve, seeking meaning in life: those are the qualities of humanity par excellence. V'ger's growth also mirrors the character arcs of Spock and Kirk in the film as well. I still consider TMP to be the best Star Trek movie. I love it! It is a science fiction allegory as TOS was. It is odd--at least to me--that (despite the fact that TMP set everything up perfectly for more films) Meyers felt the need to do a soft-reboot in ST:II and have Kirk basically repeat the same character arc he did in TMP. Meyers even had Kirk make a crucial mistake in his leadership (like in TMP). Although in TMP, Kirk's mistake (jumping to warp too soon) only could have turned out badly and resulted in a lot of death--but in ST:II, Kirk's mistake (not raising the shields when he should have) did. Also, while I'm on the subject of Meyer's soft-reboot, in TMP, the Enterprise is the most advanced starship in the fleet (complete with new shields and everything), but by ST:II it is just being used as a training vessel....and in ST:III it's ready for the garbage can....huh... Back to the subject at hand though, one thing I wonder is how much the original script of TMP by Alan Dean Foster was directly modeled after "The Changeling"? As you pointed out in your video, there’s so many similarities between the two stories that it cannot be coincidence. I wonder what the producers and Roddenberry thought about having so many similarities between the two stories? Thanks again for another amazing video! The whole fam loved it.
Good point about the Enterprise going from practically a new ship in TMP to be decommissioned by TSFS. I didn't realize that before. The question is how many years in Star Trek time has passed from TMP to TWOK?
@Suresh, I think the reason they made the Enterprise ready for decommissioning in ST:III was to make it “OK“ for Kirk to steal the ship. I think it also made it less painful for the fans to see the ship destroyed if we knew it was going to be decommissioned in any case. Sometimes it seems as if the producers of the movies must feel like either a main character must die or the ship has to be destroyed to give it the proper amount of gravitas since it’s a movie. Generations, of course, managed to pull both tasks off. ;)
You raise some interesting and well thought-out points here. I’d never considered TNG’s different attitude towards AI, which makes perfect sense in light of Data being a central character, which you also point out. It’s interesting how you describe TMP as a “bridge,” which is exactly what I noticed for the first time while making this video-that TMP acts in many ways as a bridge between TOS and TNG. Something that I might be interested in devoting a video to at some point. It’s funny that you mention “Requiem,” as one of the earlier versions of Rayna looks an awful lot like a Deltan! The ending of that episode reminds me somewhat of Blue Beard and the room the new wife is not to enter upon pain of death. Your point about it being hard to imagine Nomad destroying all life on Earth is well taken. I’ve felt the same way. It seems even less likely that it could wipe out four planets as it's claimed at the beginning of the episode. It would take something that size a very, very long time to do so. And how V’ger’s character arc is paralleled by Spock and Kirk is yet another excellent observation that I had totally missed. I never thought about the contrasting view of the Enterprise between ST: I and II. I would estimate that about 10 years had lapsed between the two movies, nowhere near long enough for them to want to retire a completely refit, state-of-the-art starship. I think you’re right that it was to soften the blow when they destroy the Enterprise, or at least make it a more acceptable choice when it happens. Analyzing the script to “In Thy Image” might help to determine how much of _TMP_ was modeled after The Changeling. It definitely had to be used as an element in the development of the movie. Thank you for continuing to post intelligent and thought provoking comments that are a joy to read!
Both "The Changeling" and "Star Trek: The Motion Picture" raises concerns that feel even more relevant in an era where we are seeing the rapid expansion of mainstream artificial intelligence.
"The Changeling" is gripping from start to finish. The movie felt interminable. The data packets are possibly a borrowed idea from "By Any Other Name" when a male and female crewmembers are reduced to small, easily crushed "packets." Terrific comparison. Well done.
"The Changeling" is a quintessential Star Trek episode, it has all the ingredients one would expect to find in a TOS episode; red shirts getting zapped, Kirk talking a machine to death, and a mind meld thrown in for good measure. Glad you enjoyed the video, thanks for posting!
A quick correction: It's only the word "creator" that is heard no where else but in "The Changeling" and in Star Trek: The Motion Picture. I made it sound like the word "creation" was never used anywhere else in Classic Star Trek, either. It was actually used a few other times, including in Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan.
That's a great point. It's funny, I recently rewatched "For the World Is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky," and the word "creators" [plural] is used approximately 100 times in that episode. :) "Creators" referring to ancestors, not a Creator-God as "The Changeling" and TMP use it though. I love this video!!!!! Thanks again for all your hard work on your channel!
@@thecaptain6730 Yeah, that episode is lousy with the word "creators." It's used no less than 13 times! It's one of my favorite episodes, with a lot of interesting concepts. Very Gnostic. I wonder if it's where the "Hollow Earth Theory" got its start? Thanks for posting, and have a Merry Christmas!!
@@MetaTrek Agreed about "For the World..." being a great episode. It is a wonderful example of how so many hard sci-fi concepts came into play in Season Three (if sometimes only in an incomplete manner). This is an episode that could have easily been made into a two-parter, with more time spent exploring the culture of the planet and the origin backstory. Plus: I do so love that very late 60s/early 70s special effect that is used when they are "punished" in the oracle room. The effect reminds me of the Spiderman films that came out in the 70s too. :)
Maybe you referenced this already, - but there is a connection between - Star Trek: Generations (1994). & TNG, Second Chances. - Riker believes everyone thinks he is dead. - Kirk is believed dead. - Kirk has chosen the woman, not his career this time. - Riker has forgone his career & stayed committed to the woman. - In both stories there is a boundary, - a Ribbon of energy in Generations, a distortion field in TNG - In both stories there is a research outpost that was collecting data & an evacuation. Data says "the planets proximity to its sun makes the transport window possible" - The Suns location is pivotal in Generations. Picard's nephew dies, and he questions his choices: ie career vs family. Riker leads an evacuation in both. - Most visually striking is the scene in which Riker almost dies & the one in which Kirk does die. - Something else interesting "Roykirk" - Riker + Kirk - I am sure you can find a lot more, I have not watched Generations in years, so going off memory.
I've always felt a more apt comparison would be between Kirk and Riker, not Kirk and Picard, especially after I discovered that Picard is French for Pike! Picard and Riker = Pike and Kirk (+Decker) Thank you for pointing out those similarities--fascinating!
@@MetaTrek - I heard they were not sure that Picard would be acceptable to trekies and wanted a Kirk type in the wings. - so makes sense, - slightly off topic but have you see "Dr. Livesey Walk - Star Trek Style" on youtube yet?
Interesting. It would seem that Riker and Decker have yet another thing in common, they were both there as potential replacements should the first captain need to be replaced (see my video on how Phase II influenced TNG for more details on Decker could have been a replacement for Kirk). I hadn't seen that video, but I just checked it out. Fun stuff!
It’s clear that Ilia is still alive during the joining scene, when she approaches Decker and they embrace as they evolve with V’ger to another dimension. V’ger gave up control of the Ilia probe and she became free. Not only are V’ger and the creator merged, Decker and Ilia are merged and finally united in body and spirit.
Great video. There is also a great deal of similarities between TMP and the Space:1999 episode "Ring Around the Moon." I don't hear many talk about that even though TMP adopted the entire look of Space:1999 including all the gray. Plus, TNG takes the phrase "resistance is futile" from Space:1999 as well.
I would be interested to hear more about the similarities between _TMP_ and "Ring Around the Moon." Although I loved the show when it first aired (when I was a little kid), it hasn't held up as well as Star Trek and so I'm not very familiar with the episode. Do you think there's many similarities with "Voyager's Return" as well? I suspect the similar look between _TMP_ and _Space:_ _1999_ has something to do with the fact that both were influenced by _2001_ _A_ _Space_ _Odyssey_.
@@MetaTrek In Ring Around the Moon a crewmen is taken over and accesses computers at a high rate of speed. He fends others who try to stop him. Kind of like the probe accessing the science station, though it's actually more similar to the Borg in Q Who. The biggest similarity is that a female crew is taken and returns and is given a medical exam that finds only one thing out of place. Very similar to Ilia. I had almost forgotten about Voyager's Return! Of course, there's the name of the craft, but he similarity here is that they mention Voyager has amassed tremendous amounts of data on its journey.
Thanks for pointing out the similarities. The next time I'm in the mood for _Space:_ _1999_ I will check out "Ring Around the Moon," I'm pretty sure that I haven't revisited that one as an adult. Are you a fan of the series?
@@MetaTrek No problem. Your videos are excellent by the way. Am a fan of Space:1999? The best answer is kind of. I had never seen it until about 15 or 16 years ago. I got the DVDs from Netflix and watched the whole show. The first season is 70s trippy and though-provoking, but very weird. They did some interesting filmmaking techniques though. Season 2 was almost a totally new show with a strong Star Trek feel, but didn't work right. Too big of a shift for fans of the first season and not enough episodes to build a new fan base I'm guessing. Fred Freiberger from TOS season 3 joined as producer for Season 2. Season 2 used the phrase "resistance is futile" in the episode "The Dorcons." Though, I think Dr. Who used the phrase a year earlier. On the DVD edition I rented there was also a video essay about Space: 1999 and TMP comparing them. It was awesome. There was another video essay about the philosophy behind the first season. Very strange but certainly interesting. Keep making these incredible videos!
Thank you! I searched for the comparison video you mentioned, but unfortunately it doesn't seem to be on youtube. I hadn't realized there was such a history behind "resistance is futile." Spock says it in _TMP_ as well.
a similarity I see is on the Enterprise bridge Uhura and Ilia are both assaulted by an alien probe and their memories erased and/or absorbed. both characters go through a reeducation or sorts to regain who they were
@@MetaTrek They are both Arnold, champion episodes of Trek, in their own way. Your video is excellent and although a super Trek fan (especially Kirk) for more than four decades, I learned something. I do love Nomad episode which I think exemplifies the public's perception of computers in the 1960's, useful tools akin to vacuum cleaners and toasters, but not equal to the human mind and spirit. TMP is more about man's actions of today coming back to haunt his tomorrow. Kirk's victory over Nomad is pure Kirk, pulling success from disaster at the last moment and he is a hero. TMP shows a Kirk attempting to recapture past glory and sacrificing multiple lives while doing so. Kirk is flawed, perhaps a hero, but not the pure hero of our cherished TOS. I feel this Kirk is out of character, but perhaps Kirk's flaws were the catalyst required to move the crew from the past of TOS and into the future of the movies, where the characters deal with the actions of their past from Kahn to lost brothers and all else in between, mirroring TMP's struggle with past actions coming home.
That's some great insight into how Nomad may have been received by a 60's audience, and the difference in approach presented in _TMP_ . They were definitely willing to present Kirk in a less flattering way in the movies. Some of what you mention about Kirk I touched on in my last video, "Kirk and the King Archetype." If you haven't checked that one out yet, you might find it interesting.
I never understood how NO ONE (in the film) even referenced Nomad or that experience in TMP. The sequel (TWOK) was based off of a TOS episode so why no connectivity? Also, WHERE did you get the clip of the Security Officer being vaporized / absorbed by the light probe? I've always known this was shot for the film but I can't say I've ever noticed it in any of the versions of the film I've seen.
The movie was very much like an episode of the series; no direct references were made to previous episodes, while at the same time plenty of elements from earlier episodes were reused. The clip of the security officer is one of several deleted scenes just released in tandem with the newest version of TMP. The others are definitely worth checking out, and can be found on youtube!
@@MetaTrek Thanks for the info. I have the Directors Cut DVD from way back and a Blu Ray version of the theatrical cut. Wax thinking about getting the 40th Anniversary version that came out this year. Perhaps it’s part of those special features.
@@BronzeAgeBryon you're absolutely right. Although they've released more deleted scenes, I know there is still more that they haven't, including additional scenes shot at Starfleet Headquarters. I guess they're saving them for the next "special release" in order to get us to buy that one as well!
3:44 Where did you find that exact concept art of Ilia’s body in the pyramid. I’ve been looking for it but I cannot find it on Google, nor information on it. Is there any more info on that draft of the script where Ilia’s dead body is found I the pyramid?
The only place I know of is in this coffee table photo-book: Star Trek: The Motion Picture: Inside the Art and Visual Effects. I have a link to in in the video description, but here it is again for convenience sake: amzn.to/3I6yfm9 Among a lot of other awesome artwork I've not found elsewhere, there's a more detailed depiction of Ilia inside the pyramid. It also has the storyboard for the sequence, as well as a write-up on the concept. Cheers!
V'ger is on a philosophical quest -- Nomad calls Kirk creator only because it thinks he's a professional engineer. V'ger is also intentionally seeking some kind of truth. And in Star Trek II, Kirk and co. just fight Khan, the exact same guy, the exact same actor, again. So what's the point of saying TMP is repetitive? At least it showed some imagination and scope.
This video perfectly captures both my love for Star Trek and my OCD. Bless you.
In the early 80s, I did my college "Comparison & Contrast" essay in Writing 101 on STTMP and The Changeling. Got an A on it.
Makes me wonder what you may have uncovered that I missed, does anything stand out that you'd like to share with us?
I remember as a kid what a build up to bringing back Star Trek was, we were were getting by with Space 1999 and re-runs . It was a thrill to see the old crew together again, but most of the audience was expecting Star Wars . I was listening to a podcast about someone who claimed to work on the movie that in the earlier versions it was Quetzalcoatl
(Kukulkan) which came back, which was shelved and put into the animated series . Great work getting into the mythology .
I loved Space: 1999 when I was a kid, and I still have the Moonbase Eagle ship that I got for Christmas way back in '76. Unfortunately the series has not held up for me, but I still try to watch it every so often! Back in the '70s it seemed like Star Trek would never return, and I was so excited when it finally did! I remember seeing it in the theater on a cold December night when I was 9, and it left me with a weird, cold feeling inside too. But I've always been fascinated by the movie, and I love it! Didn't know that they were considering using Quetzalcoatl instead of Voyager. That would have giving the movie quite a different feel!
As I emerged from the cinema back in '79 my 15 year old self concluded that although I was glad to see our heroic crews return, enjoyed being dazzled by great SFX that were state of the art at the time plus the exquisite score...it was basically a massively expensive re-run of the Changeling. I still love it though.
Another excellent comparison video presented with your typical aplomb! I really appreciate all the sound effects and visuals you incorporate into your videos. Your videos are so much more engaging than they would be if we were simply staring at a still photo. And your dialogue matches what we see and hear perfectly. In this video, I especially appreciated the multiple screens demonstrating the frequent recurrence on the key words (i.e., creator). Thank you for putting so much effort into what you do.
It is interesting that one of the main themes throughout TOS is the conflict between man and machine, which concludes time and again by showing us that man is superior to machines (proven when inevitably the machine in question self destructs). Although toward the end of TOS, in “Requiem,” the series showed that through love a machine could--almost--become a human being. TMP seems to be the final time in ST where this conflict is shown, and the film revisited the idea of machine evolution first hinted at in "Requiem" by having Decker’s sacrifice enable V’ger (and Decker) to not only equal, but to transcend the limits of humanity. Interestingly in TNG, the man versus machine theme has been completely dropped in favor of the (now taken for granted) belief that machines (represented by Data) could become human or at least very human-like. TMP is the thematic bridge that makes this new ST reality possible.
Many people would considerTMP to be a bloated version of “The Changeling,” but since I saw TMP many times and many years before I saw "The Changeling," I consider it to be the reverse: that "The Changeling" is a less expensive and less imaginative version of the movie ("The Changeling" is still a great episode, but as you show in this video, they are so similar it’s hard not to compare). I do enjoy Nomad’s computer voice, but it's hard to ignore the fact that Nomad is actually smaller than a human being, and it is hard to imagine it being able to destroy all life on Earth. V'ger, however, is immense and potentially highly destructive. Plus V'ger had, in a way and on its own, already gained so much knowledge that it has essentially already become human (as Kirk admits in the film). Gaining knowledge, wanted to improve, seeking meaning in life: those are the qualities of humanity par excellence. V'ger's growth also mirrors the character arcs of Spock and Kirk in the film as well.
I still consider TMP to be the best Star Trek movie. I love it! It is a science fiction allegory as TOS was. It is odd--at least to me--that (despite the fact that TMP set everything up perfectly for more films) Meyers felt the need to do a soft-reboot in ST:II and have Kirk basically repeat the same character arc he did in TMP. Meyers even had Kirk make a crucial mistake in his leadership (like in TMP). Although in TMP, Kirk's mistake (jumping to warp too soon) only could have turned out badly and resulted in a lot of death--but in ST:II, Kirk's mistake (not raising the shields when he should have) did. Also, while I'm on the subject of Meyer's soft-reboot, in TMP, the Enterprise is the most advanced starship in the fleet (complete with new shields and everything), but by ST:II it is just being used as a training vessel....and in ST:III it's ready for the garbage can....huh...
Back to the subject at hand though, one thing I wonder is how much the original script of TMP by Alan Dean Foster was directly modeled after "The Changeling"? As you pointed out in your video, there’s so many similarities between the two stories that it cannot be coincidence. I wonder what the producers and Roddenberry thought about having so many similarities between the two stories?
Thanks again for another amazing video! The whole fam loved it.
Good point about the Enterprise going from practically a new ship in TMP to be decommissioned by TSFS. I didn't realize that before. The question is how many years in Star Trek time has passed from TMP to TWOK?
@Suresh, I think the reason they made the Enterprise ready for decommissioning in ST:III was to make it “OK“ for Kirk to steal the ship. I think it also made it less painful for the fans to see the ship destroyed if we knew it was going to be decommissioned in any case.
Sometimes it seems as if the producers of the movies must feel like either a main character must die or the ship has to be destroyed to give it the proper amount of gravitas since it’s a movie. Generations, of course, managed to pull both tasks off. ;)
You raise some interesting and well thought-out points here. I’d never considered TNG’s different attitude towards AI, which makes perfect sense in light of Data being a central character, which you also point out. It’s interesting how you describe TMP as a “bridge,” which is exactly what I noticed for the first time while making this video-that TMP acts in many ways as a bridge between TOS and TNG. Something that I might be interested in devoting a video to at some point. It’s funny that you mention “Requiem,” as one of the earlier versions of Rayna looks an awful lot like a Deltan! The ending of that episode reminds me somewhat of Blue Beard and the room the new wife is not to enter upon pain of death.
Your point about it being hard to imagine Nomad destroying all life on Earth is well taken. I’ve felt the same way. It seems even less likely that it could wipe out four planets as it's claimed at the beginning of the episode. It would take something that size a very, very long time to do so. And how V’ger’s character arc is paralleled by Spock and Kirk is yet another excellent observation that I had totally missed. I never thought about the contrasting view of the Enterprise between ST: I and II. I would estimate that about 10 years had lapsed between the two movies, nowhere near long enough for them to want to retire a completely refit, state-of-the-art starship. I think you’re right that it was to soften the blow when they destroy the Enterprise, or at least make it a more acceptable choice when it happens.
Analyzing the script to “In Thy Image” might help to determine how much of _TMP_ was modeled after The Changeling. It definitely had to be used as an element in the development of the movie.
Thank you for continuing to post intelligent and thought provoking comments that are a joy to read!
I would guess around 10 years.
Both "The Changeling" and "Star Trek: The Motion Picture" raises concerns that feel even more relevant in an era where we are seeing the rapid expansion of mainstream artificial intelligence.
Has anyone acknowledged that between these episodes, came forth the origin of the BORG.
"The Changeling" is gripping from start to finish. The movie felt interminable.
The data packets are possibly a borrowed idea from "By Any Other Name" when a male and female crewmembers are reduced to small, easily crushed "packets."
Terrific comparison. Well done.
"The Changeling" is a quintessential Star Trek episode, it has all the ingredients one would expect to find in a TOS episode; red shirts getting zapped, Kirk talking a machine to death, and a mind meld thrown in for good measure. Glad you enjoyed the video, thanks for posting!
Another great vid. Thanks for the shout out!
You're very welcome. Thank you for becoming a Patreon! Be sure to check out the exclusive videos I've posted for my Patreons. More is on the way . . .
A quick correction: It's only the word "creator" that is heard no where else but in "The Changeling" and in Star Trek: The Motion Picture. I made it sound like the word "creation" was never used anywhere else in Classic Star Trek, either. It was actually used a few other times, including in Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan.
That's a great point. It's funny, I recently rewatched "For the World Is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky," and the word "creators" [plural] is used approximately 100 times in that episode. :) "Creators" referring to ancestors, not a Creator-God as "The Changeling" and TMP use it though. I love this video!!!!! Thanks again for all your hard work on your channel!
@@thecaptain6730 Yeah, that episode is lousy with the word "creators." It's used no less than 13 times! It's one of my favorite episodes, with a lot of interesting concepts. Very Gnostic. I wonder if it's where the "Hollow Earth Theory" got its start? Thanks for posting, and have a Merry Christmas!!
@@MetaTrek Agreed about "For the World..." being a great episode. It is a wonderful example of how so many hard sci-fi concepts came into play in Season Three (if sometimes only in an incomplete manner). This is an episode that could have easily been made into a two-parter, with more time spent exploring the culture of the planet and the origin backstory. Plus: I do so love that very late 60s/early 70s special effect that is used when they are "punished" in the oracle room. The effect reminds me of the Spiderman films that came out in the 70s too. :)
Maybe you referenced this already, - but there is a connection between - Star Trek: Generations (1994). & TNG, Second Chances. - Riker believes everyone thinks he is dead. - Kirk is believed dead. - Kirk has chosen the woman, not his career this time. - Riker has forgone his career & stayed committed to the woman. - In both stories there is a boundary, - a Ribbon of energy in Generations, a distortion field in TNG - In both stories there is a research outpost that was collecting data & an evacuation. Data says "the planets proximity to its sun makes the transport window possible" - The Suns location is pivotal in Generations. Picard's nephew dies, and he questions his choices: ie career vs family. Riker leads an evacuation in both. - Most visually striking is the scene in which Riker almost dies & the one in which Kirk does die. - Something else interesting "Roykirk" - Riker + Kirk - I am sure you can find a lot more, I have not watched Generations in years, so going off memory.
I've always felt a more apt comparison would be between Kirk and Riker, not Kirk and Picard, especially after I discovered that Picard is French for Pike!
Picard and Riker = Pike and Kirk (+Decker)
Thank you for pointing out those similarities--fascinating!
@@MetaTrek - I heard they were not sure that Picard would be acceptable to trekies and wanted a Kirk type in the wings. - so makes sense, - slightly off topic but have you see "Dr. Livesey Walk - Star Trek Style" on youtube yet?
Interesting. It would seem that Riker and Decker have yet another thing in common, they were both there as potential replacements should the first captain need to be replaced (see my video on how Phase II influenced TNG for more details on Decker could have been a replacement for Kirk). I hadn't seen that video, but I just checked it out. Fun stuff!
@@MetaTrek - I think I have seen all your vids
It’s clear that Ilia is still alive during the joining scene, when she approaches Decker and they embrace as they evolve with V’ger to another dimension. V’ger gave up control of the Ilia probe and she became free. Not only are V’ger and the creator merged, Decker and Ilia are merged and finally united in body and spirit.
I really like this take on the merger between V’ger, Decker, and Ilia. Thanks for sharing it!
@@MetaTrek of course! TMP is my favorite Star Trek production so I love to analyze it.
Great video. agree re the comment below to the credit owed to Space 1999.
Great video. There is also a great deal of similarities between TMP and the Space:1999 episode "Ring Around the Moon." I don't hear many talk about that even though TMP adopted the entire look of Space:1999 including all the gray. Plus, TNG takes the phrase "resistance is futile" from Space:1999 as well.
I would be interested to hear more about the similarities between _TMP_ and "Ring Around the Moon." Although I loved the show when it first aired (when I was a little kid), it hasn't held up as well as Star Trek and so I'm not very familiar with the episode. Do you think there's many similarities with "Voyager's Return" as well? I suspect the similar look between _TMP_ and _Space:_ _1999_ has something to do with the fact that both were influenced by _2001_ _A_ _Space_ _Odyssey_.
@@MetaTrek In Ring Around the Moon a crewmen is taken over and accesses computers at a high rate of speed. He fends others who try to stop him. Kind of like the probe accessing the science station, though it's actually more similar to the Borg in Q Who. The biggest similarity is that a female crew is taken and returns and is given a medical exam that finds only one thing out of place. Very similar to Ilia. I had almost forgotten about Voyager's Return! Of course, there's the name of the craft, but he similarity here is that they mention Voyager has amassed tremendous amounts of data on its journey.
Thanks for pointing out the similarities. The next time I'm in the mood for _Space:_ _1999_ I will check out "Ring Around the Moon," I'm pretty sure that I haven't revisited that one as an adult. Are you a fan of the series?
@@MetaTrek No problem. Your videos are excellent by the way. Am a fan of Space:1999? The best answer is kind of. I had never seen it until about 15 or 16 years ago. I got the DVDs from Netflix and watched the whole show. The first season is 70s trippy and though-provoking, but very weird. They did some interesting filmmaking techniques though. Season 2 was almost a totally new show with a strong Star Trek feel, but didn't work right. Too big of a shift for fans of the first season and not enough episodes to build a new fan base I'm guessing. Fred Freiberger from TOS season 3 joined as producer for Season 2. Season 2 used the phrase "resistance is futile" in the episode "The Dorcons." Though, I think Dr. Who used the phrase a year earlier. On the DVD edition I rented there was also a video essay about Space: 1999 and TMP comparing them. It was awesome. There was another video essay about the philosophy behind the first season. Very strange but certainly interesting. Keep making these incredible videos!
Thank you! I searched for the comparison video you mentioned, but unfortunately it doesn't seem to be on youtube. I hadn't realized there was such a history behind "resistance is futile." Spock says it in _TMP_ as well.
a similarity I see is on the Enterprise bridge Uhura and Ilia are both assaulted by an alien probe and their memories erased and/or absorbed. both characters go through a reeducation or sorts to regain who they were
That's a great point. The two encounters may have been even more similar had _TMP_ remained a series pilot. Thanks for posting!
Fab comparison, in your usual excellent style 👍
Another similarity to consider: Both Vger and Nomad probed the mind of a woman and were momentarily unsettled or confused.
That's a great observation, thank you for sharing it!
But which one was Arnold?!?
I would imagine V'ger, but that's more a matter of opinion. Which one would you choose?
@@MetaTrek They are both Arnold, champion episodes of Trek, in their own way. Your video is excellent and although a super Trek fan (especially Kirk) for more than four decades, I learned something. I do love Nomad episode which I think exemplifies the public's perception of computers in the 1960's, useful tools akin to vacuum cleaners and toasters, but not equal to the human mind and spirit. TMP is more about man's actions of today coming back to haunt his tomorrow. Kirk's victory over Nomad is pure Kirk, pulling success from disaster at the last moment and he is a hero. TMP shows a Kirk attempting to recapture past glory and sacrificing multiple lives while doing so. Kirk is flawed, perhaps a hero, but not the pure hero of our cherished TOS. I feel this Kirk is out of character, but perhaps Kirk's flaws were the catalyst required to move the crew from the past of TOS and into the future of the movies, where the characters deal with the actions of their past from Kahn to lost brothers and all else in between, mirroring TMP's struggle with past actions coming home.
That's some great insight into how Nomad may have been received by a 60's audience, and the difference in approach presented in _TMP_ . They were definitely willing to present Kirk in a less flattering way in the movies. Some of what you mention about Kirk I touched on in my last video, "Kirk and the King Archetype." If you haven't checked that one out yet, you might find it interesting.
Vger...
You wanted the Borg?
This is how you get the Borg.
Would that make Ilia the first Borg Queen then?
I never understood how NO ONE (in the film) even referenced Nomad or that experience in TMP. The sequel (TWOK) was based off of a TOS episode so why no connectivity? Also, WHERE did you get the clip of the Security Officer being vaporized / absorbed by the light probe? I've always known this was shot for the film but I can't say I've ever noticed it in any of the versions of the film I've seen.
The movie was very much like an episode of the series; no direct references were made to previous episodes, while at the same time plenty of elements from earlier episodes were reused. The clip of the security officer is one of several deleted scenes just released in tandem with the newest version of TMP. The others are definitely worth checking out, and can be found on youtube!
@@MetaTrek Thanks for the info. I have the Directors Cut DVD from way back and a Blu Ray version of the theatrical cut. Wax thinking about getting the 40th Anniversary version that came out this year. Perhaps it’s part of those special features.
@@BronzeAgeBryon you're absolutely right. Although they've released more deleted scenes, I know there is still more that they haven't, including additional scenes shot at Starfleet Headquarters. I guess they're saving them for the next "special release" in order to get us to buy that one as well!
3:44 Where did you find that exact concept art of Ilia’s body in the pyramid. I’ve been looking for it but I cannot find it on Google, nor information on it. Is there any more info on that draft of the script where Ilia’s dead body is found I the pyramid?
The only place I know of is in this coffee table photo-book: Star Trek: The Motion Picture: Inside the Art and Visual Effects. I have a link to in in the video description, but here it is again for convenience sake: amzn.to/3I6yfm9 Among a lot of other awesome artwork I've not found elsewhere, there's a more detailed depiction of Ilia inside the pyramid. It also has the storyboard for the sequence, as well as a write-up on the concept. Cheers!
@@MetaTrek Thank you very much!
@@MetaTrek speaking of which when is the video about the motion picture inspiring the next gen coming out?
@@anthonybrunotheodd It's hard to say when, but it is still in the works. So many video I want to produce, and so little time!
This is what happens when you invent machines that are too perfect.
I AM NOMAD!!
Non sequitur. Your facts are uncoordinated.
@@MetaTrek Oh my God, you just made my day! I'm not even kidding. Hahaha!
V'ger is on a philosophical quest -- Nomad calls Kirk creator only because it thinks he's a professional engineer. V'ger is also intentionally seeking some kind of truth. And in Star Trek II, Kirk and co. just fight Khan, the exact same guy, the exact same actor, again. So what's the point of saying TMP is repetitive? At least it showed some imagination and scope.
Watched the whole video. Knowledgeable piece.
I'd say _TMP_ showed _a_ _lot_ of imagination and scope. If I had to choose, it's probably my favorite ST movie (it's hard to pick a favorite).
Would explain why it had 1 hour of story and dialogue in a two hour movie padded with pretty pictures.
And great music!