Good review Dan - thanks. I also have a 9.5 kwh battery and have been adversely affected by the SOC bug. Just going to give it a few more days monitoring the community forums before I pull the trigger.
I've had a GivEnergy system system for about two years. Originally I had a 5.2 kWh battery which started off fine then the storage capacity massively reduced. GE took it away for a few weeks, in the end I had to complain and they replaced it with an 8.2 kWh battery which I was more than happy with, That was fine, at first, then I started to have a few SOC reading problems as you described. This seemed to settle down after a software update. I then noticed that the battery capacity seemed to be going down again, although I still had enough to power my day. Then GE got in touch with me and said they'd noticed. They tried a few remote options and I had an engineer visit but it didn't get fixed. They then decided to replace the battery and now everything is absolutely tickedy boo. I know it seems that I have had a bit of a rough time, however, GE have been brilliant. I was especially impressed that they picked up my poor battery health without me reporting it. Fingers crossed everything will stay in the pink now.
Hello Dan,I have a setup battery 8 kw inverter,all foxess set everything to send power on flux ,I am a customer with octopus set the force charge from 16:00 to 19:00 yesterday,and saved it ,and waited and looked on my soc was no different at ten o clock,
My Givenergy battery is also in my garage and is now 6 months old. It has been brilliant. My 9.5 Kwh battery means that I very rarely draw any power from the grid. The exception is that I occasionally charge my EV overnight between 2.00am and 5.00am on the Octopus Flux tariff at less than 20p per unit. I agree with your interpretation that the battery has a 10 year warranty. My monthly bill with Octopus Flux is around £45 but, once my export details have been concluded, I expect this to reduce.
A comparison: LuxPower offers a modular system where various manufacturers’ batteries can be installed and subsequently added, though the Inverter rates cannot be changed. I’m currently a heavy user of the SoC (State of charge of the battery) graph across the day in order to compare tariffs. This is well presented on the web, but missing on the App. The graph’s vertical axis is dynamic and often shows 125%! Strangely, the battery never reaches this figure😉 The installer and importer can read the data remotely. Three periods for Charge across the day can be defined and three for Discharge in addition to the standard program, however in each case all three periods share settings. The installer offers additional programs for some Octopus tariffs on request. The display of the current (5-minute update) situation frequently gives some somewhat illogical presentations. Using a CT-clip to measure grid import & export is cheap but somewhat inaccurate with significant leakage. The installer and importer say “Nothing wrong”. EPS (Emergency Power Supply) is available to provide power direct from the battery for specific new sockets. This is not to be confused with the isolation and hence whole house provision which Tesla offers.
Great video, Dan. I was planning my own walk-though of the app but you beat me to it! I've got a few more things to say about it though (I have the smart plugs for example), so I'll probably still do that video soon. I think I have a solution for your scheduled battery discharge issue. In the app when you set the discharge setting to ""Scheduled" you then have two options for the "Consumption Type". Try setting that to "Home Demand" rather than "Full Export". I experimented with both (it's very unclear what they actually mean!) and when I tried "Full Export" I found the same issue as you in that the battery wouldn't charge outside of the scheduled discharge time. With "Home Demand" it seems to behave entirely normally during the rest of the day. I've had mine set up for discharge between 6 and 7pm and so far it's just got on with it with no problems.
Hi Tim. Thank you and apologies 😁 always room for one more video though I’m sure. 👍 Will look forward to it. Ooh, I will try that method, cheers! I agree, it’s not very obvious what each option means at all, which is strange as the rest of the app is very easy to use and understand. What losses are you seeing when you discharge the battery? My home consumption according to the app seems to increase about 400W during this time, which I assume is from the power the inverter uses to actually discharge power back to the grid. Seems quite high, to the point I’m wondering whether it is actually worth discharging to the grid at all, but still probably will as it does make a difference to the earnings.
@@DanEVSolar7 yeah, that's a great question and one I'm currently struggling to answer. I also see some extra load when discharging but to do a proper test I need to work out the round-trip efficiency more reliably. I'm currently thinking of discharging at full power for half an hour then charging at full power for half an hour (when it's dark so there is no solar charging to contaminate it). If I know the typical baseload use of the house I should be able to subtract that away from the export kWh to work out how much came from the battery, then work out what the change in battery % was between charge and discharge, if you see what I mean. i.e. measure the kWh imported and the kWh exported (using the Octopus meter readings as the definitive values) and then the same values suggested by the % state of charge change, and from that the round-trip efficiency should be possible to calculate. It's a bit fiddly but worth doing I think, as I agree if the round-trip efficiency is less than about 70% it might not be worth doing this charge/discharge at all.
Yeah makes sense. I was thinking if it’s using 400w then a 3 hour discharge during the peak would use, or essentially waste 1.2kwh. Which if that was kept in the battery you’d then gain back that 1.2kwh in export the next day, probably off-peak which would equate to about (21p x 1.2) 26p gain maybe. If you exported at peak for 3 hours you would probably earn about £1.02 (2kwh discharge with losses x 0.34p) so still seems worth doing, but like you say hard to estimate accurately without doing quite a bit of testing. I tried that home demand option and it works great by the way! I can’t believe I didn’t try that option as I’d messed around with it for quite a while. 😂
@@DanEVSolar7 excellent! I'm glad that worked for you. Yeah, I couldn't see any difference in behaviour between those two options while discharging so assumed it made no difference. It was only after the discharge period ended and the battery didn't then charge from excess solar that I got a bit confused and tried the other option. I think the names are a bit misleading tbh. Although I'm not sure what I'd call them instead!
Had my GivEnergy system 4,781KwH array (15 panels), 3k inverter & 2x 2.6KwH batteries for almost a year now. Over that time generated 4.2 Mwh, used 3.1 MwH, exported 1.8 MwH and imported 880 KwH. The import was over the Oct-Feb period. Not had any problems with the kit apart from the Eon engineer who fitted an isolator, to enable a consumer unit upgrade, refitting the CT clamp the wrong way round!! Soon spotted and resolved when readings the wrong way round.
I have the same battery and a Zappi to charge my ev. At first the Zappi was drawing the maximum 3.6kW discharge rate. As my car has a 64kWh battery, obviously I didn’t want my home battery being rapidly drained by it. Fortunately on the GivEnergy app, it’s a simple matter of using the slider to lower the discharge rate of the battery. You can lower it all the way to zero. I try to predict what the average solar generation (say 1.8kW) will be and then set the battery to just top up the solar (say 400 watts) if it decreases due to cloud cover. I find the GivEnergy battery in eco mode is fantastic at working in tandem with my solar to power the house during the day and at night the battery keeps our house ticking over nicely. Our grid use per day is between 1 and 4 pence and that is if I forget the 3.6kW inverter limit, such as if the oven is on and then I switch the kettle on. 😅 Also, throughout the day when intensive energy appliances switch on it takes the battery a couple of seconds to match the consumption and over a day this results in 1 to 4 pence of grid use. Have you found the same thing happening with your system, Dan? Anyway, I’m enjoying your updates, thank you. 👍
Thanks for the comments. Yes, I see exactly the same thing… Just a couple of pence a day unless we run too much at the same time, but generally costing me next to nothing for electricity import. 👍 I think venturing into the world of EVs and EV chargers will be my next experiment. 😆
@@DanEVSolar7It sounds like our systems are working as designed to. 👍 I have an MG4 SE Long Range and can highly recommend it. It’s really great fun to drive and being able to charge it with solar feels like magic. 😃
Hi Dan I managed to get the battery to discharge to the grid between certain times using schedule but you need to set consumption type to home demand. This will mean the battery will only discharge to house demand outside the scheduled time. reset the battery to default before making the changes settings.
Thanks for this. I could never get that to work on mine for some reason. It didn’t fully discharge like I wanted during the time period for some reason.
hi, We had a 5KW solar install complete with Give energy inverter & Gen2 9.5KW battery, its over 1 year now since the install and initially we had a setup issue which was diagnosed to a breakdown in cabling & initial charging - but after that was quickly fixed we have not had any issues. family of 4 who are fairly high users around 17KW per day, in the summer we don't use the grid but in winter we charge up off peak with Octopus energy who have to be the slowest b4stards in the world at sorting things or calling back! BUT taking everything into account we have managed to generate over 56% of our energy from the solar panels and by using off-peak and storage we have seen our bills reduced massively so it has been very much worth while. I am now considering a second battery and weighing up the cost at approx £250 per year depreciation of the battery vs how much we will save compared to having just one battery - I would definitely recommend the Give Energy stop though
Hey, I'm in the same boat with the battery as well. The capacity right now is perfect but I think another 9.5kWh battery would hopefully see me through the winter if I went down the ASHP route. I usually contact Octopus on Twitter/X and they are usually very responsive via that route and seem to have well trained staff. Glad to hear you are making the most of the equipment!
I’m considering agivenergy install and trying to decide the battery capacity. I have solar already but what is the maximum battery charge/kWh that can be imported from the grid during the 3 hour octopus overnight window?
@@simbakirk1 economy 7 tariffs give you 7 hours of Off-Peak electricity so you can charge it up at 2.5kw X 7 = 17.5kw. If you on,y have the 3 hour car charging cheap rate window then you’d get 7.5KW. But you will top up from solar too
Great walkthrough of the 5kW Gen 1 and 9.5 kWh battery. We offer Agile Octo integration and multiple charge/discharge schedules and it's all compatible with the Giv Gen 1 - would love to hear your thoughts! Thank you. 🙏
This might be something I'm interested in in future, but quite happy on Intelligent Octopus Go for the time being. I'll certainly bear it in mind though! Thanks.
Looks good . What is your maximum draw from the system? Is it 2.5 kWh ie you cant boil a normal kettle without importing from the grid when there is little solar ie in the evening or winter day . Thanks
With my Gen1 inverter, yeah the limit is 2.6kw. The Gen2 inverter can do 3.6, so go for that one if you can. 👍 It’s only pence as the battery would cover most of it, but still, it all helps.
Hi Dan. Thanks for the content. I have a solar diverted that powers an immersion heater. Does anyone know whether this can be integrated with the Givenergy battery in terms of where the solar excess goes?
I have a GivEnergy 5.2kw plus inverter with 12 panels on my roof - has anyone used Puraflow Renewables for installation? I am experiencing some issues with their installation.
Hi Dan Glad that you are back, although with sleepless nights. I have a quick question Can you tell me if the GIVENERY systems can be integrated with the ZAPPI? I have a ZAPPI and two Electric cars I am in Octopus GO 🐙 at the moment. I am saving to get a battery system an Solar next year I am looking at the GIVENERY systems, ie the 9.2 and the all in one Big question is what is the Solar panels input attached to, either the GIVENERY or the ZAPPI I am looking at speckiing my system and how to spec the battery size and the Sola I will get Octopus 🐙 for battery and solar.and want to use the energy in the battery as well as sell to the Grid Any help would be appreciated Thanks James
Hi James. It depends what you mean by compatible. The Zappi won’t show up in the GivEnergy app but you can configure it to see the battery and solar and then prioritise where you want the power to come from with the help of a Harvi and plenty of CT clamps. A good installer should be able to advise the best way to do it. 👍
Curious where you're based? I'm looking at solar and givenergy kit soon, hence I found your video. I know you mentioned you were going to Harrogate, I'm in Leeds and looking for a reliable installer. Who did yours and would you recommend?
Ive got the gen1 5k inverter, and the 8.2k GE battery. Heard a few things on user groups about oddites of the battery SOC, but can't validate myself. Occasional it does weird stuff, like not kicking in and thus drawing from the grid. Sent a few mails to support and kinda been brushed off which is annoying
Hi Stuart. Yeah it’s a tricky one. I feel like they could be a market leader with the right strategy and products, but I feel like they have a lot to juggle at the moment and they can’t afford to take their eyes of the customer service part.
Dan...have you had any issues with the inverter throttling back the Solar production when your battery is full or nearly full? When my battery reaches 95+% is basically slows the PV production instead of keeping the production the same and exporting to the grid. The exported stuff can then be diverted to my Zappi & Eddi.
Yes, this is a bug in the inverter which the guys at GivEnergy had just fixed. My gen 2 5kW inverter was upgraded to firmware version 909 a few days ago and the results are amazing. All my issues (caused when battery > 90% full) fixed. Yesterday I got an extra 10kWh than a similar previous sunny day. Heavily documented on the givEnergy community forum. They are making firmware available via web portal soon or give them a ring. Good luck, Dom
I'm going to have GivEnergy 9.5kWh batter storage for my solar system. In regarding to the inverter should I go for Gen3 GivEnergy 3.6kw hybrid inverter or Gen3 GivEnergy 5kW hybrid inverter?
Hi. Difficult to say as it’s dependent on a number of factors. Have you got DNO approval for more than 3.6kw? What are your usage patterns? Size of your array? Etc.
The batteries are interesting - I’m about to get a heat pump ; was looking at solar and battery but it seems just a battery works great with Octopus Intelligent (reducing my electricity to 7.5p/kWh) - to the extent that solar is left only able to reduce costs from 7.5p to zero which is a saving of only 7.5 per kWh? Makes solar seem a bit less enticing?
Yes, that is definitely one way to look at it. I like having the solar as it covers you for any future changes to the tariffs and means you’re a little more self reliant and gives a layer of flexibility, but the cheap overnight rate makes just a battery on its own look quite appealing too.
Thermal runaway - I’m not keen on having a large battery in the house ( we have a void under the living area that the suppliers want to use ) - thinking of building a service cupboard but only viable place is ten metres from CU . ?
Most home batteries use LFP technology now, which is much safer than NMC used in some cars so although not impossible, it is very unlikely to suffer thermal runaway.
I’ve had my GE system since Jan 23 and its worked fine although I have had issues with the setup and installation that I’ve had to diagnose. Our house has an existing 4kW FIT array and Growatt inverter that I knew wouldn’t be monitored by the GE system, but it does result in some strange negative daily consumption figures on sunny days. Alongside this we had 10.4kW of solar panels installed, 2x Gen1 5kW hybrid inverters (due to the number of panels), a 5.2kW battery and a 9.5 battery. Only after installation and reading the GE forum did I find out that a multi-inverter “plant” setup isn’t recommended as the two inverters are not aware of each other and can conflict, although I’ve not seen any issues at all. My first issue was that the installers fitted both batteries to one inverter so on sunny days when the other inverter was generating lots of power it had nowhere to go but the grid, but in doing so the excess power was causing the first inverter to record an over-voltage error and isolate itself. This happened repeatedly and for hours on end during the day. Moving the batteries so there’s one on each inverter largely resolved this issue. I still get over-voltage errors but much less frequently and only for 5 minutes at a time. Second more recent issue was that when Eon fitted a new twin rate smart meter (so I can take advantage of newer tariffs) they fitted the CT clamps round the wrong way. As the existing FIT array was exporting during the day the GE inverters read this export as a phantom import and drained the batteries to try to supply it and then never charged the batteries as they were constantly trying to divert the solar to meet the house demand. Swapping the CT clamps round fixed this one. As you said the battery and solar do what they should do and our grid demand has dropped substantially. With the house draw and our Air Source Heat Pump we’re not as self-sufficient as I hoped for, in April and early May the batteries would run out and we were still drawing from the grid in the evening so probably need more batteries and/or move to a time of day tariff but I’m put off by the cost of extra batteries and the high daytime electricity price with ToD tariffs so no decisions yet
You can monitor the existing pv from your givenergy. If you have an AC inverter it comes with a CT clamp for monitoring the existing PV, or the installer could have added additional meters for monitoring it.
@@davemyers77 We have two GE 5kW Gen 1 hybrid inverters that feed a battery attached to each inverter. The two inverters have a CT clamp which monitors the incoming supply, but unfortunately there’s no way of adding a second CT clamp and monitoring the FIT array. In fact the FIT generation confuses the energy monitoring of the hybrid inverters because they “see” generation occuring in the house where they are expecting demand to occur. So on sunny days where the FIT array is generating more than the house is using I end up with negative ‘generation to home’ figures. In hindsight maybe I should have an AC coupled battery system which could have captured excess solar from the FIT array as well as excess solar from the new array. Would however have required two sets of inverters (DC to AC and AC to DC battery) which would have been more expensive. And at the time I didn’t appreciate the different options, I just went with the recommended hybrid inverters which are more efficient as only one set of voltage conversion occurs
An excellent video, however I waited with baited breath to learn what happens if you get a power cut. As it wasn’t referred to, can anyone comment on what happens if you get a powercut/blackout and the local power grid goes down. What happens with the GivEnergy battery. Can it still supply the whole house, within reason, until the local grid is back online. I know the Tesla PowerWall 2 is able to do exactly that. What I don’t want is I have a separate electrical mains circuit installed just for power cuts or only have the battery run one device like a freezer. I haven’t found any battery systems, apart from Tesla that keep the house powered when the grid is down. We suffer from powercuts on a regular basis, had one last night. Sometimes they last for a few minutes and other times a few hours. I’d love to hear people’s thoughts and views on my question/query.
Thanks Stephen. Unfortunately no not at the moment, but it is possible if I added a Giv-Gateway, although from the website, it looks like this is not yet available. 👍 Hope that helps.
@@DanEVSolar7 I believe the Tesla Powerwall 2 comes with the gateway as standard. I appreciate your comment regarding GivEnergy’s gateway but how long have they been stating that? Do you think it’s another false promise? I appreciate that products take time to arrive to market but some companies never deliver as promised.
No, there are several EPS (emergency power supply) options for the GE battery & inverters and it can supply the whole house in the event of a power cut. The limitation is the throughput of the inverter. I have a 5kW gen 1 so can supply 2.6kW from the battery only or 5k from battery and solar (power cut during the day). You don’t need the GE gateway device, that’s for use with the new GE all-in-one which is basically a battery in a box same as the the Tesla Powerwall
Hi Dan, Many thanks for your advice and information. Can you please elaborate on the manufacturer and models for the several EPS (emergency power supply) that you are referring to. Would it be fair to say that these options would also work alongside most makes of batteries or just GE ? Thank you
Hi, thanks for your video. I have just had a GE system installed and have down loaded the app onto my iPhone. I notice that your app has a ‘play’ button which allows you to go to further options.Unfortunately the play button doesn’t appear on my screen. Can you suggest how I can access the play button and further options? Thanks
Hmm, to a degree. With a couple of correctly placed CT clamps you can kinda get all of the data from the MyEnergi app but it’s not ideal. An integrated system would be better in my opinion.
Hi James. There’s not a great deal in it to be honest. Most panels are around 20-25% efficient and usually a higher wattage output generally just means a bigger panel. You can get more efficient panels than this but you pay a premium. The panels are probably the least of your concerns with a solar install. Any good installer should be able to advise you what to get. 👍
Not yet unfortunately. Apparently GivEnergy are implementing this at some point soon but home assistant is really the only way at the moment, as far as I can tell.
I am with Octopus and have a ZAPPI. I have a KIA EV6 and my wife's has a VAUXHALL MOKKA E I am on Octopus GO FASTER which is ending, so I would like to go to Intelligent Octopus. My car is on the list so I can get Octopus Intelligent, but my wife's is not My question is. Can both the cars use the time of day tarrif if I set my car up?
i dispute GivEnergy's claim that containing no cobalt makes the battery non-flammable. Lithium iron phosphate cells are much safer than other lithium ion chemistries, but like all lithium ion batteries they have a flammable organic solvent electrolyte. Set it on fire and it will burn vigorously.
@@CastleKnight7 I am an electrical engineer and I was involved in three projects totalling approx 50MWh of lithium iron phosphate battery over the last couple of years. I know a little about this
Hi. The import options are great, but I think for some of the newer export tariffs, a full suite of options is not quite there yet. Hopefully they can update this in time. 👍
I've been able to set up the charge and discharge settings for my system and it works pretty well (see my separate comment). I think you can get more sophisticated automations with Octopus Agile but it appears those don't work with Flux (at least I've not found a way to do set them up yet).
Being a British company the larger they get the more likely the government would step in because of dependency on public that have them installed. I would be more concerned on the Chinese company systems where there would be little to no support. That’s genuinely part the reason I opted givenergy plus there support has also been really good, especially in online forums where they have active dedicated (employed) engineers
That’s what the GivEnergy data sheet says, “The battery chemistry does not contain any Cobalt, making it non-flammable and the battery pack is 99% recyclable.”
i dispute GivEnergy's claim that containing no cobalt makes the battery non-flammable. Lithium iron phosphate cells are much safer than other lithium ion chemistries, but like all lithium ion batteries they have a flammable organic solvent electrolyte. Set it on fire and it will burn vigorously.
Thanks all. Glad to know it's their 👍 Annoyingly the system went a little bit 'rogue' again this morning whilst cooking breakfast. Was using the oven which is around 2500w at 200 temp. Had 500 from PV, usual base load of around 150w, but the bloody thing drew power from the grid for a 45 minutes, so 1.4kwh imported and battery stood idle. I guess ultimately it's the inverter, but no new FW showing up. This is the 3rd or 4th time it's done something odd like this. Will have to raise a ticket and join that FB group you mentioned. Frustrating as I noticed it standing idle whilst cooking grr
I have a couple of comments: Battery: Gen 2, 9.5 kWh Battery was recommended by the install team itself. There are some bad vibes about Gen 1 batteries. So it’s a big improvement over Gen 1 apparently. So far so good. Inverter: We have a 2.6 kW (Gen 1) inverter which is NOT adequate for a fully electric home with an ASHP! Gen 2 is an improvement at 3.6 kW, however we need an inverter rated around 4.5 kW available from the battery alone, as this is how the system works particularly in winter. Frankly: GivEnergy products seem to be improving, but they should have been right when released. The EV charger they promoted 12months ago is another case in point, it’s still NOT available which is really annoying. One of the reasons I chose GivEnergy is the integration in the App. It looks good and works well. I’ve ordered a MyEnergi Zappi EV charger today… Keep your eye’s open and do your own due diligence. Good video!
Now swapped out the Gen 1 inverter for a Gen 3 which is much better, it has much less ‘chatter’ when switching, so less draw from the grid. Also added another 9.5 kWh battery. Happier with GivEnergy. Zappi is too good to swap out for the new GivEnergy EV charger. I’ll wait until it’s proven, Gen 2 EV charger? Take care.
Hi Peter. Yep, I’ve tried slowing it down a little in my recent vids. I don’t think the editing helped with this one. Probably cut too much of the pauses out. 😆
so either I get scammed on a 10k battery install - or get slowly scammed by the energy companies on monthly fees if I dont get a battery. I spent 10k on panels last year, they are shit - barely make enough power to boil kettle - SEG is skank too, EDF doing everything in their power to stop paying the tiny SEG payment - they owe me 120 quid in SEG but not paying it, keep asking me for photos of Smart meter ive sent them so many pics. We are all being robbed, need a revolution like the french did in 1789.
Slightly pessimistic way to look at it haha. 😂 I prefer to think of it as securing your own energy supply instead of having to rely on the grid and the fluctuations in the market and flexibility for how you use the power. Surprised to hear about your panels, most people don’t have any issues assuming the system is sized correctly for your usage and the property. There are also other cheaper batteries available if they All in one does t suit your needs. I have the 9.5kWh GivEnergy battery and it works brilliantly. Octopus definitely seem to be the best for customer service out of all of the big energy providers. Hope you get to a more positive position with EDF.
Good review Dan - thanks. I also have a 9.5 kwh battery and have been adversely affected by the SOC bug. Just going to give it a few more days monitoring the community forums before I pull the trigger.
I've had a GivEnergy system system for about two years. Originally I had a 5.2 kWh battery which started off fine then the storage capacity massively reduced. GE took it away for a few weeks, in the end I had to complain and they replaced it with an 8.2 kWh battery which I was more than happy with, That was fine, at first, then I started to have a few SOC reading problems as you described. This seemed to settle down after a software update. I then noticed that the battery capacity seemed to be going down again, although I still had enough to power my day. Then GE got in touch with me and said they'd noticed. They tried a few remote options and I had an engineer visit but it didn't get fixed. They then decided to replace the battery and now everything is absolutely tickedy boo. I know it seems that I have had a bit of a rough time, however, GE have been brilliant. I was especially impressed that they picked up my poor battery health without me reporting it. Fingers crossed everything will stay in the pink now.
Hi Eddy. Great to hear your experience and pleased they finally got the issues sorted. Thanks! 👍
Hi Eddy, what do you mean when you say storage was reduced on the 5.2kw
Hello Dan,I have a setup battery 8 kw inverter,all foxess set everything to send power on flux ,I am a customer with octopus set the force charge from 16:00 to 19:00 yesterday,and saved it ,and waited and looked on my soc was no different at ten o clock,
My Givenergy battery is also in my garage and is now 6 months old. It has been brilliant. My 9.5 Kwh battery means that I very rarely draw any power from the grid. The exception is that I occasionally charge my EV overnight between 2.00am and 5.00am on the Octopus Flux tariff at less than 20p per unit. I agree with your interpretation that the battery has a 10 year warranty.
My monthly bill with Octopus Flux is around £45 but, once my export details have been concluded, I expect this to reduce.
Thanks Thomas. Great to hear!
A comparison: LuxPower offers a modular system where various manufacturers’ batteries can be installed and subsequently added, though the Inverter rates cannot be changed.
I’m currently a heavy user of the SoC (State of charge of the battery) graph across the day in order to compare tariffs. This is well presented on the web, but missing on the App. The graph’s vertical axis is dynamic and often shows 125%! Strangely, the battery never reaches this figure😉
The installer and importer can read the data remotely.
Three periods for Charge across the day can be defined and three for Discharge in addition to the standard program, however in each case all three periods share settings.
The installer offers additional programs for some Octopus tariffs on request.
The display of the current (5-minute update) situation frequently gives some somewhat illogical presentations.
Using a CT-clip to measure grid import & export is cheap but somewhat inaccurate with significant leakage. The installer and importer say “Nothing wrong”.
EPS (Emergency Power Supply) is available to provide power direct from the battery for specific new sockets. This is not to be confused with the isolation and hence whole house provision which Tesla offers.
Is the ZAPPI charger compatible?
Great video, Dan. I was planning my own walk-though of the app but you beat me to it! I've got a few more things to say about it though (I have the smart plugs for example), so I'll probably still do that video soon. I think I have a solution for your scheduled battery discharge issue. In the app when you set the discharge setting to ""Scheduled" you then have two options for the "Consumption Type". Try setting that to "Home Demand" rather than "Full Export". I experimented with both (it's very unclear what they actually mean!) and when I tried "Full Export" I found the same issue as you in that the battery wouldn't charge outside of the scheduled discharge time. With "Home Demand" it seems to behave entirely normally during the rest of the day. I've had mine set up for discharge between 6 and 7pm and so far it's just got on with it with no problems.
Hi Tim. Thank you and apologies 😁 always room for one more video though I’m sure. 👍 Will look forward to it.
Ooh, I will try that method, cheers! I agree, it’s not very obvious what each option means at all, which is strange as the rest of the app is very easy to use and understand.
What losses are you seeing when you discharge the battery? My home consumption according to the app seems to increase about 400W during this time, which I assume is from the power the inverter uses to actually discharge power back to the grid. Seems quite high, to the point I’m wondering whether it is actually worth discharging to the grid at all, but still probably will as it does make a difference to the earnings.
That’s a very good tip, Tim! Thanks for sharing.
@@DanEVSolar7 yeah, that's a great question and one I'm currently struggling to answer. I also see some extra load when discharging but to do a proper test I need to work out the round-trip efficiency more reliably. I'm currently thinking of discharging at full power for half an hour then charging at full power for half an hour (when it's dark so there is no solar charging to contaminate it). If I know the typical baseload use of the house I should be able to subtract that away from the export kWh to work out how much came from the battery, then work out what the change in battery % was between charge and discharge, if you see what I mean. i.e. measure the kWh imported and the kWh exported (using the Octopus meter readings as the definitive values) and then the same values suggested by the % state of charge change, and from that the round-trip efficiency should be possible to calculate. It's a bit fiddly but worth doing I think, as I agree if the round-trip efficiency is less than about 70% it might not be worth doing this charge/discharge at all.
Yeah makes sense. I was thinking if it’s using 400w then a 3 hour discharge during the peak would use, or essentially waste 1.2kwh. Which if that was kept in the battery you’d then gain back that 1.2kwh in export the next day, probably off-peak which would equate to about (21p x 1.2) 26p gain maybe. If you exported at peak for 3 hours you would probably earn about £1.02 (2kwh discharge with losses x 0.34p) so still seems worth doing, but like you say hard to estimate accurately without doing quite a bit of testing.
I tried that home demand option and it works great by the way! I can’t believe I didn’t try that option as I’d messed around with it for quite a while. 😂
@@DanEVSolar7 excellent! I'm glad that worked for you. Yeah, I couldn't see any difference in behaviour between those two options while discharging so assumed it made no difference. It was only after the discharge period ended and the battery didn't then charge from excess solar that I got a bit confused and tried the other option. I think the names are a bit misleading tbh. Although I'm not sure what I'd call them instead!
Had my GivEnergy system 4,781KwH array (15 panels), 3k inverter & 2x 2.6KwH batteries for almost a year now.
Over that time generated 4.2 Mwh, used 3.1 MwH, exported 1.8 MwH and imported 880 KwH. The import was over the Oct-Feb period.
Not had any problems with the kit apart from the Eon engineer who fitted an isolator, to enable a consumer unit upgrade, refitting the CT clamp the wrong way round!! Soon spotted and resolved when readings the wrong way round.
Great to hear Brian! 👍
4.2Mwh? That's 4'200'000wh out of a 3.6kw inverter & 4700 Watt array in 12 months?
I have the same battery and a Zappi to charge my ev. At first the Zappi was drawing the maximum 3.6kW discharge rate. As my car has a 64kWh battery, obviously I didn’t want my home battery being rapidly drained by it. Fortunately on the GivEnergy app, it’s a simple matter of using the slider to lower the discharge rate of the battery. You can lower it all the way to zero. I try to predict what the average solar generation (say 1.8kW) will be and then set the battery to just top up the solar (say 400 watts) if it decreases due to cloud cover.
I find the GivEnergy battery in eco mode is fantastic at working in tandem with my solar to power the house during the day and at night the battery keeps our house ticking over nicely. Our grid use per day is between 1 and 4 pence and that is if I forget the 3.6kW inverter limit, such as if the oven is on and then I switch the kettle on. 😅 Also, throughout the day when intensive energy appliances switch on it takes the battery a couple of seconds to match the consumption and over a day this results in 1 to 4 pence of grid use. Have you found the same thing happening with your system, Dan?
Anyway, I’m enjoying your updates, thank you. 👍
Thanks for the comments. Yes, I see exactly the same thing… Just a couple of pence a day unless we run too much at the same time, but generally costing me next to nothing for electricity import. 👍 I think venturing into the world of EVs and EV chargers will be my next experiment. 😆
@@DanEVSolar7It sounds like our systems are working as designed to. 👍 I have an MG4 SE Long Range and can highly recommend it. It’s really great fun to drive and being able to charge it with solar feels like magic. 😃
Hi Dan I managed to get the battery to discharge to the grid between certain times using schedule but you need to set consumption type to home demand. This will mean the battery will only discharge to house demand outside the scheduled time. reset the battery to default before making the changes settings.
Thanks for this. I could never get that to work on mine for some reason. It didn’t fully discharge like I wanted during the time period for some reason.
hi, We had a 5KW solar install complete with Give energy inverter & Gen2 9.5KW battery, its over 1 year now since the install and initially we had a setup issue which was diagnosed to a breakdown in cabling & initial charging - but after that was quickly fixed we have not had any issues. family of 4 who are fairly high users around 17KW per day, in the summer we don't use the grid but in winter we charge up off peak with Octopus energy who have to be the slowest b4stards in the world at sorting things or calling back! BUT taking everything into account we have managed to generate over 56% of our energy from the solar panels and by using off-peak and storage we have seen our bills reduced massively so it has been very much worth while. I am now considering a second battery and weighing up the cost at approx £250 per year depreciation of the battery vs how much we will save compared to having just one battery - I would definitely recommend the Give Energy stop though
Hey, I'm in the same boat with the battery as well. The capacity right now is perfect but I think another 9.5kWh battery would hopefully see me through the winter if I went down the ASHP route. I usually contact Octopus on Twitter/X and they are usually very responsive via that route and seem to have well trained staff. Glad to hear you are making the most of the equipment!
I’m considering agivenergy install and trying to decide the battery capacity. I have solar already but what is the maximum battery charge/kWh that can be imported from the grid during the 3 hour octopus overnight window?
@@simbakirk1 economy 7 tariffs give you 7 hours of Off-Peak electricity so you can charge it up at 2.5kw X 7 = 17.5kw. If you on,y have the 3 hour car charging cheap rate window then you’d get 7.5KW. But you will top up from solar too
Great walkthrough of the 5kW Gen 1 and 9.5 kWh battery. We offer Agile Octo integration and multiple charge/discharge schedules and it's all compatible with the Giv Gen 1 - would love to hear your thoughts! Thank you. 🙏
This might be something I'm interested in in future, but quite happy on Intelligent Octopus Go for the time being. I'll certainly bear it in mind though! Thanks.
Looks good . What is your maximum draw from the system? Is it 2.5 kWh ie you cant boil a normal kettle without importing from the grid when there is little solar ie in the evening or winter day . Thanks
With my Gen1 inverter, yeah the limit is 2.6kw. The Gen2 inverter can do 3.6, so go for that one if you can. 👍 It’s only pence as the battery would cover most of it, but still, it all helps.
Hi Dan. Thanks for the content. I have a solar diverted that powers an immersion heater. Does anyone know whether this can be integrated with the Givenergy battery in terms of where the solar excess goes?
Thanks James. Sorry I don’t have an answer for you but hopefully someone does. 👍
I have a GivEnergy 5.2kw plus inverter with 12 panels on my roof - has anyone used Puraflow Renewables for installation? I am experiencing some issues with their installation.
Hi Dan
Glad that you are back, although with sleepless nights.
I have a quick question
Can you tell me if the GIVENERY systems can be integrated with the ZAPPI?
I have a ZAPPI and two Electric cars
I am in Octopus GO 🐙 at the moment.
I am saving to get a battery system an Solar next year
I am looking at the GIVENERY systems, ie the 9.2 and the all in one
Big question is what is the Solar panels input attached to, either the GIVENERY or the ZAPPI
I am looking at speckiing my system and how to spec the battery size and the Sola
I will get Octopus 🐙 for battery and solar.and want to use the energy in the battery as well as sell to the Grid
Any help would be appreciated
Thanks James
Hi James. It depends what you mean by compatible. The Zappi won’t show up in the GivEnergy app but you can configure it to see the battery and solar and then prioritise where you want the power to come from with the help of a Harvi and plenty of CT clamps. A good installer should be able to advise the best way to do it. 👍
Curious where you're based? I'm looking at solar and givenergy kit soon, hence I found your video. I know you mentioned you were going to Harrogate, I'm in Leeds and looking for a reliable installer. Who did yours and would you recommend?
Hi Gary. I’m near Middlesbrough so a bit further north. I used a local installer called UCS Renewables.
Ive got the gen1 5k inverter, and the 8.2k GE battery.
Heard a few things on user groups about oddites of the battery SOC, but can't validate myself.
Occasional it does weird stuff, like not kicking in and thus drawing from the grid.
Sent a few mails to support and kinda been brushed off which is annoying
Hi Stuart. Yeah it’s a tricky one. I feel like they could be a market leader with the right strategy and products, but I feel like they have a lot to juggle at the moment and they can’t afford to take their eyes of the customer service part.
Dan...have you had any issues with the inverter throttling back the Solar production when your battery is full or nearly full? When my battery reaches 95+% is basically slows the PV production instead of keeping the production the same and exporting to the grid. The exported stuff can then be diverted to my Zappi & Eddi.
Hi Ian. No, I’ve not seen that. It usually gets to 100% full power, then reverts to export straight after.
Yes, this is a bug in the inverter which the guys at GivEnergy had just fixed. My gen 2 5kW inverter was upgraded to firmware version 909 a few days ago and the results are amazing. All my issues (caused when battery > 90% full) fixed. Yesterday I got an extra 10kWh than a similar previous sunny day. Heavily documented on the givEnergy community forum. They are making firmware available via web portal soon or give them a ring. Good luck, Dom
I'm going to have GivEnergy 9.5kWh batter storage for my solar system. In regarding to the inverter should I go for Gen3 GivEnergy 3.6kw hybrid inverter or Gen3 GivEnergy 5kW hybrid inverter?
Hi. Difficult to say as it’s dependent on a number of factors. Have you got DNO approval for more than 3.6kw? What are your usage patterns? Size of your array? Etc.
The batteries are interesting - I’m about to get a heat pump ; was looking at solar and battery but it seems just a battery works great with Octopus Intelligent (reducing my electricity to 7.5p/kWh) - to the extent that solar is left only able to reduce costs from 7.5p to zero which is a saving of only 7.5 per kWh? Makes solar seem a bit less enticing?
Yes, that is definitely one way to look at it. I like having the solar as it covers you for any future changes to the tariffs and means you’re a little more self reliant and gives a layer of flexibility, but the cheap overnight rate makes just a battery on its own look quite appealing too.
Thermal runaway - I’m not keen on having a large battery in the house ( we have a void under the living area that the suppliers want to use ) - thinking of building a service cupboard but only viable place is ten metres from CU . ?
Most home batteries use LFP technology now, which is much safer than NMC used in some cars so although not impossible, it is very unlikely to suffer thermal runaway.
I’ve had my GE system since Jan 23 and its worked fine although I have had issues with the setup and installation that I’ve had to diagnose.
Our house has an existing 4kW FIT array and Growatt inverter that I knew wouldn’t be monitored by the GE system, but it does result in some strange negative daily consumption figures on sunny days. Alongside this we had 10.4kW of solar panels installed, 2x Gen1 5kW hybrid inverters (due to the number of panels), a 5.2kW battery and a 9.5 battery. Only after installation and reading the GE forum did I find out that a multi-inverter “plant” setup isn’t recommended as the two inverters are not aware of each other and can conflict, although I’ve not seen any issues at all.
My first issue was that the installers fitted both batteries to one inverter so on sunny days when the other inverter was generating lots of power it had nowhere to go but the grid, but in doing so the excess power was causing the first inverter to record an over-voltage error and isolate itself. This happened repeatedly and for hours on end during the day. Moving the batteries so there’s one on each inverter largely resolved this issue. I still get over-voltage errors but much less frequently and only for 5 minutes at a time.
Second more recent issue was that when Eon fitted a new twin rate smart meter (so I can take advantage of newer tariffs) they fitted the CT clamps round the wrong way. As the existing FIT array was exporting during the day the GE inverters read this export as a phantom import and drained the batteries to try to supply it and then never charged the batteries as they were constantly trying to divert the solar to meet the house demand. Swapping the CT clamps round fixed this one.
As you said the battery and solar do what they should do and our grid demand has dropped substantially. With the house draw and our Air Source Heat Pump we’re not as self-sufficient as I hoped for, in April and early May the batteries would run out and we were still drawing from the grid in the evening so probably need more batteries and/or move to a time of day tariff but I’m put off by the cost of extra batteries and the high daytime electricity price with ToD tariffs so no decisions yet
You can monitor the existing pv from your givenergy. If you have an AC inverter it comes with a CT clamp for monitoring the existing PV, or the installer could have added additional meters for monitoring it.
@@davemyers77 We have two GE 5kW Gen 1 hybrid inverters that feed a battery attached to each inverter. The two inverters have a CT clamp which monitors the incoming supply, but unfortunately there’s no way of adding a second CT clamp and monitoring the FIT array. In fact the FIT generation confuses the energy monitoring of the hybrid inverters because they “see” generation occuring in the house where they are expecting demand to occur. So on sunny days where the FIT array is generating more than the house is using I end up with negative ‘generation to home’ figures.
In hindsight maybe I should have an AC coupled battery system which could have captured excess solar from the FIT array as well as excess solar from the new array. Would however have required two sets of inverters (DC to AC and AC to DC battery) which would have been more expensive. And at the time I didn’t appreciate the different options, I just went with the recommended hybrid inverters which are more efficient as only one set of voltage conversion occurs
An excellent video, however I waited with baited breath to learn what happens if you get a power cut. As it wasn’t referred to, can anyone comment on what happens if you get a powercut/blackout and the local power grid goes down. What happens with the GivEnergy battery. Can it still supply the whole house, within reason, until the local grid is back online. I know the Tesla PowerWall 2 is able to do exactly that. What I don’t want is I have a separate electrical mains circuit installed just for power cuts or only have the battery run one device like a freezer.
I haven’t found any battery systems, apart from Tesla that keep the house powered when the grid is down. We suffer from powercuts on a regular basis, had one last night. Sometimes they last for a few minutes and other times a few hours.
I’d love to hear people’s thoughts and views on my question/query.
Thanks Stephen. Unfortunately no not at the moment, but it is possible if I added a Giv-Gateway, although from the website, it looks like this is not yet available. 👍 Hope that helps.
Even with the Tesla Powerwall you would need an additional gateway box to allow it to do this.
@@DanEVSolar7 I believe the Tesla Powerwall 2 comes with the gateway as standard. I appreciate your comment regarding GivEnergy’s gateway but how long have they been stating that? Do you think it’s another false promise? I appreciate that products take time to arrive to market but some companies never deliver as promised.
No, there are several EPS (emergency power supply) options for the GE battery & inverters and it can supply the whole house in the event of a power cut. The limitation is the throughput of the inverter. I have a 5kW gen 1 so can supply 2.6kW from the battery only or 5k from battery and solar (power cut during the day). You don’t need the GE gateway device, that’s for use with the new GE all-in-one which is basically a battery in a box same as the the Tesla Powerwall
Hi Dan,
Many thanks for your advice and information. Can you please elaborate on the manufacturer and models for the several EPS (emergency power supply) that you are referring to. Would it be fair to say that these options would also work alongside most makes of batteries or just GE ?
Thank you
Hi, thanks for your video. I have just had a GE system installed and have down loaded the app onto my iPhone. I notice that your app has a ‘play’ button which allows you to go to further options.Unfortunately the play button doesn’t appear on my screen. Can you suggest how I can access the play button and further options? Thanks
Hi B F. If you open the app and go to the settings -> Preferences -> Show quick settings button that should show it. 👍
Thanks Guys. Had I realised I needed a degree in IT analytics I might have thought twice about getting a solar system installed😉👍
Is the ZAPPI home charger compatible with the GIVENERGY system?
Hmm, to a degree. With a couple of correctly placed CT clamps you can kinda get all of the data from the MyEnergi app but it’s not ideal. An integrated system would be better in my opinion.
I am looking at the GIVENERY battery., but can you help me as to which Solar Panel is best, more efficient etc.
Hi James. There’s not a great deal in it to be honest. Most panels are around 20-25% efficient and usually a higher wattage output generally just means a bigger panel. You can get more efficient panels than this but you pay a premium. The panels are probably the least of your concerns with a solar install. Any good installer should be able to advise you what to get. 👍
Do you recommend your installer?
Yeah they were really good. 👍
ucs-renewables.co.uk
did you ever find solution to setting the timer on battery to distribute during peak times? This is a concern for me.
Not yet unfortunately. Apparently GivEnergy are implementing this at some point soon but home assistant is really the only way at the moment, as far as I can tell.
@@DanEVSolar7 so the energy stored in the battery just sits in the battery & won't automatically power the home?
It powers the home, it just doesn’t export at full power unless you tell it to manually.
I am with Octopus and have a ZAPPI.
I have a KIA EV6 and my wife's has a VAUXHALL MOKKA E
I am on Octopus GO FASTER which is ending, so I would like to go to Intelligent Octopus. My car is on the list so I can get Octopus Intelligent, but my wife's is not
My question is. Can both the cars use the time of day tarrif if I set my car up?
You would need to double check this, but I believe you can configure it for one and use it on both. 👍
i dispute GivEnergy's claim that containing no cobalt makes the battery non-flammable. Lithium iron phosphate cells are much safer than other lithium ion chemistries, but like all lithium ion batteries they have a flammable organic solvent electrolyte. Set it on fire and it will burn vigorously.
Best get in touch with GivEnergy and see what their scientists and engineers say.
@@CastleKnight7 I am an electrical engineer and I was involved in three projects totalling approx 50MWh of lithium iron phosphate battery over the last couple of years. I know a little about this
@@redshift3As I’m sure do their scientists and engineers.
The crappy scheduling and lack of logic-based import/export sounds SO annoying, forcing you to babysit the thing.
Hi. The import options are great, but I think for some of the newer export tariffs, a full suite of options is not quite there yet. Hopefully they can update this in time. 👍
I've been able to set up the charge and discharge settings for my system and it works pretty well (see my separate comment). I think you can get more sophisticated automations with Octopus Agile but it appears those don't work with Flux (at least I've not found a way to do set them up yet).
What happens if giveenergy go bust and shutdown all their webservers (as we've seen with other suppliers). Will the system still work?
Hey. I would hope it would still work locally but I guess it’s a risk with any product.
Why do you think they will go bust? Seems to me that they are thriving:)
The Home Assistant integration is very good and can communicate locally. Hopefully this would still allow control if GE went bust.
Being a British company the larger they get the more likely the government would step in because of dependency on public that have them installed. I would be more concerned on the Chinese company systems where there would be little to no support. That’s genuinely part the reason I opted givenergy plus there support has also been really good, especially in online forums where they have active dedicated (employed) engineers
Lack of cobalt makes a lithium battery non-flammable. Are you sure?
That’s what the GivEnergy data sheet says, “The battery chemistry does not contain any Cobalt, making it non-flammable and the battery pack is 99% recyclable.”
@@CastleKnight7 Interesting, I'll follow that up. Thanks.
@@Trenchfoot1No problem. I’m no expert, it’s just that I remember reading that on the data sheet which can be found on their website.
i dispute GivEnergy's claim that containing no cobalt makes the battery non-flammable. Lithium iron phosphate cells are much safer than other lithium ion chemistries, but like all lithium ion batteries they have a flammable organic solvent electrolyte. Set it on fire and it will burn vigorously.
@@redshift3 That would be my thoughts too. I'll take it in to a professional forum and see what the consensus is.
Weird, I dont get the play button on my app..
Interesting. What version are you on? I’m using v3.2.1.
Ah, press Settings -> Preferences -> Show Quick Settings button. 👍
It can be switched on/off. Click the 'Three Line' icon (top left), Settings, Preferences, Turn 'Show Quick settings button' on.
Hey presto!!
Thanks all. Glad to know it's their 👍
Annoyingly the system went a little bit 'rogue' again this morning whilst cooking breakfast.
Was using the oven which is around 2500w at 200 temp. Had 500 from PV, usual base load of around 150w, but the bloody thing drew power from the grid for a 45 minutes, so 1.4kwh imported and battery stood idle.
I guess ultimately it's the inverter, but no new FW showing up.
This is the 3rd or 4th time it's done something odd like this.
Will have to raise a ticket and join that FB group you mentioned.
Frustrating as I noticed it standing idle whilst cooking grr
@@stuartburns8657 inverter FW 909 is the key to so many issues…
I have a couple of comments:
Battery:
Gen 2, 9.5 kWh Battery was recommended by the install team itself. There are some bad vibes about Gen 1 batteries. So it’s a big improvement over Gen 1 apparently. So far so good.
Inverter:
We have a 2.6 kW (Gen 1) inverter which is NOT adequate for a fully electric home with an ASHP!
Gen 2 is an improvement at 3.6 kW, however we need an inverter rated around 4.5 kW available from the battery alone, as this is how the system works particularly in winter.
Frankly:
GivEnergy products seem to be improving, but they should have been right when released.
The EV charger they promoted 12months ago is another case in point, it’s still NOT available which is really annoying. One of the reasons I chose GivEnergy is the integration in the App. It looks good and works well.
I’ve ordered a MyEnergi Zappi EV charger today…
Keep your eye’s open and do your own due diligence. Good video!
Now swapped out the Gen 1 inverter for a Gen 3 which is much better, it has much less ‘chatter’ when switching, so less draw from the grid.
Also added another 9.5 kWh battery.
Happier with GivEnergy.
Zappi is too good to swap out for the new GivEnergy EV charger. I’ll wait until it’s proven, Gen 2 EV charger?
Take care.
8kw battery
No Nickel Cobalt Manganese content in the 9.5 kWh = safe!
Yeah, been really happy with it so far!
Could you speak a little bit slower: A lot of information, so this would help. I have the same system as yours and it works well...
Hi Peter. Yep, I’ve tried slowing it down a little in my recent vids. I don’t think the editing helped with this one. Probably cut too much of the pauses out. 😆
so either I get scammed on a 10k battery install - or get slowly scammed by the energy companies on monthly fees if I dont get a battery. I spent 10k on panels last year, they are shit - barely make enough power to boil kettle - SEG is skank too, EDF doing everything in their power to stop paying the tiny SEG payment - they owe me 120 quid in SEG but not paying it, keep asking me for photos of Smart meter ive sent them so many pics. We are all being robbed, need a revolution like the french did in 1789.
Slightly pessimistic way to look at it haha. 😂 I prefer to think of it as securing your own energy supply instead of having to rely on the grid and the fluctuations in the market and flexibility for how you use the power. Surprised to hear about your panels, most people don’t have any issues assuming the system is sized correctly for your usage and the property. There are also other cheaper batteries available if they All in one does t suit your needs. I have the 9.5kWh GivEnergy battery and it works brilliantly. Octopus definitely seem to be the best for customer service out of all of the big energy providers. Hope you get to a more positive position with EDF.
I love what your doing . But I believe the direction your going is wrong . Good luck.
Care to elaborate? 🙂
I wouldn't mind an elaboration either.