Recently had a one on one session with Mike via the buy me a coffee option. Rarely do you get the opportunity to pick someone's brain in a one on one setting. I tried finding coffee roasting classes locally and had no luck. I binge watched Mike's and other youtuber's videos and still had some targeted questions. Mike asked me my questions ahead of time and then prepared a PDF with my answers. Mike is patient and thorough. Consider supporting him and his efforts via buy me a coffee and a one on one is a steal of a deal. I plan to do another session after I get some more experience under my belt.
It was great to meet with you on Zoom Duke. I'm glad I was able to answer most of your questions and it was a good value for you. I'm looking forward to the next time we get a chance to meet and talk coffee roasting. Thanks for sharing your experience here in this comment. If there are others who might be interested in a "One-On-One Zoom call" with me to talk coffee roasting see this link: www.buymeacoffee.com/virtualcoffeelab/extras
Mike really is the best. I too have gained so many skills from him. Last night I spoke to my wife about what I could ask during a zoom call. Thank you for your comment. Best wishes and may you have many great cups to come.
Thank you! I have seen so many people throw up graphs and talk about "rate of rise" without actually explaining what it is. Of course I'd mostly been watching videos about which roasters might be best for various reasons and they apparently assume you know these things already I suppose. I am thankful for your very good verbal description. This is the first time I actually understand what is actually being measured on the graphs. As soon as someone throws up a graph it makes it seem like it must be something so complicated that a graph is necessary to grasp what's happening.
Thank you for your kind comments. I’m glad my videos have been helpful. In my next video, I talk about the roast, while reference a worksheet, then at the end of the video I build a basic graph that visualizes the roast. It is a good transition for people who are learning and I don’t really talk about rate much at all. That might be helpful for you. Again, thanks for watching!
Great video! Just got my first roaster yesterday and plan on my roasting today. So glad I found your video to get me started on the right path. Keep up the good work.
Hey man, I’m Yousif from Saudi Arabia, would like to complement the way you talk, I’m practicing my IELTS test and just watching you talking has improved me. Very clear and words used in place wisely, also the way you explained the middle phase was just perfect, I’m lucky your video the first thing I saw, that saved me a lot of time. Thanks again.
Hello Yousuf. You speak very good English. Are you roasting coffee? Tell me about the type of roaster and coffee you use while roasting coffee. Thank you for your kind words and for watching my videos! Good Luck with your IELTS test.
Glad you enjoy it! It has been a lot of effort, probably 10+ hours per video, and expenses but I am excited I am able to help the home coffee roasting community. The comments area has become a gem and I am grateful for that. Lots of time there but a really helpful source of info. Thanks for watching and the message. I appreciate your recognition of my efforts and the encouraging words.
I use a rotisserie basket in an electric oven. Temperature can measured manually in the coffee, or indirectly using an oven thermometer. Continuous rotation and oven fan ensure even heat distribution compared to using a wok or heater gun. Thanks for the explanation on the importance of charting. Cheers!
Hello Alan, thanks for watching. Sounds like you have a process that is working for you. Yes, charting is really helpful and will help you roast some great coffee!
Thank you for this useful content. Just an idea how to improve your explanations: when you dealing with numbers, curves like different RoRs, it would be much more comprehensible showing it on a diagram or using another kind of visualization. But I really appreciate your thoroughness. Thank you again.
Thanks for your suggestion Ferenc, I really do appreciate it. I agree. As I do more videos, I think I am getting better at presenting my thoughts and including more graphical info. At t some point I will be revisiting this top in more detail and will do as you suggest. Thanks for watching my video!
Great video Mike! I'm roasting on a Hive hooked up to Artisan and learning so much from your clear explanations. Thank you very much for helping me with my new hobby! No doubt you have roasted many different beans and wonder if you could share with me what are your top favorite few bean choices???
Hi Ed, I’m so glad my videos have helped you. Yes, I’ve roasted many different coffees. I Am a sucker for a dry process Ethiopian beans. They are fruity. I am also on the hunt for the blueberry bomb by the way. As far as a specific region of Africa, that isn’t important to me. What is important is high scoring high density African coffee. I am a huge fan of Guatemala Huehuetenango beans. I’m drinking that coffee every week. There are many others coffees I really like from countries like El Salvador, Sumatra, and Colombia.
Super informative as always! I wanted to clarify a couple of things to make sure if I’m understanding correctly regarding ROR. I know the numbers can change a bit but I’ll be using the example numbers you used in the video. I preheated my Behmor 1600 Plus and the starting temp was 230. On P5 the ROR started at about 18. With a target of 20 at dry end do I was a ROR of 20 throughout the drying phase or do I want to dial back the temperature and build up to 20 at dry end? Then during the browning phase the target example was going from 20 ROR to 12 ROR IN 4 minutes. Do you mean let the temperature continue to climb but at a steadily decreasing ROR or let the temperature drop at that rate? I hope this makes sense. Thank you!
Hi Michael. Yea, I could have done a better job explaining that. YES, the ROR (rate of rise) is the temperature increase rate within a period of time. In this case 1 minute I think. So, yes, on a traditional drum roaster the temperature ALWAYS increases throughout the roast, but generally speaking, the rate of increase is less (lower) as you progress through the roast. The highest rate of increase will occur during the dry phase. You mentioned 18-20 degrees. Now, this part is really important. The examples I gave in my video are based on my drum roaster experience. I still take the concepts and apply them to all roasters BUT the Behmor is a little different. Your ROR profile will NOT be pretty on the Behmor compared to a drum roaster. Why? Because the temperature readings you see on the Behmor are NOT bean temperatures. They are environmental temperatures for the most part. So you're not seeing the real ROR. See my Behmor Artisan video link below where i place probes in the behmor to display both BT and ET temperatures. These are not perfectly accurate either BUT the video does give a good visual representation of the ROR using the the Bean Temperature / BT. Notice how it climbs pretty steeply and then the downward trend of the temp occurs during the middle phase. Again, this isn't a true BT but it shows lower rates of temperature increase as the roast moves towards first crack and the development phase. ruclips.net/video/jm5MsA8poJs/видео.html I hope my comments make sense. You are correct, but the behmor just isn't the best roaster to discuss ROR because we can't truly measure it. We can only synthesize it.
Thank you for watching my video. Keep in mind a "medium" roast level is the temperature range of the beans you are roasting when the roast ends. So my answers below are helpful as long as you remember we are talking about bean temperature. The total roast time for medium roast temperature depends on several things: 1. The type of roasting machine you are using. Roast times for medium can range from 5 minutes to 20 minutes depending on your roaster. Air roasters can roast fast while a frying pan can take 20 minutes. Again, it is all about how fast the heat from your roaster can penetrate the coffee. If you roaster is powerful and an air roaster, the heat will penetrate the bean quicker. If it is a frying pan, the heat is mostly affecting the side of the bean that is laying on the surface of the pan. I am using extreem examples to help explain how the type of roaster you have makes a difference in the ability to roast the coffee to a medium roast. 2. The type of coffee you are roasting will determine how much heat you are able to apply without causing roasting defects like scorching and tipping. The coffee bean density and process can influence the total roast time because of what I just explained. So, if you like a brazil coffee, that might take longer to roast because you are being careful not to apply too much heat in the beginning of the roast and this will cause you to have a longer total roast time to get to a medium temperature roast . 3. Total roast time will affect how the coffee to taste. Even though we end our roast at the same "medium temperature", how fast or slow we roast the coffee will impact the flavor. Try it for yourself. Roast a coffee fast, say in 7 minutes and compare that taste of the same coffee that is roasted in 12 minutes. You will notice a difference. The shorter roast might be more tart and light in body while the longer roast might be a bigger body feel with less acidity Let me know if you have more questions about this. Have a great week roasting!
Airflow, drum speed and capacity/batch size are also 3 very important variables in roasting times, roasting quality and uniformity, because of how the coffee batches take on heat. For example, with the same environment temperature reading a higher airflow setting and drum speed can cause the coffee to cook faster (higher ROR). On the other hand, with a higher airflow and drum speed, a little lower temperature can be used while keeping a similar ROR. I'd love to see a video addressing this with real examples. So maybe a video all about controlling ROR throughout each phase. And all the different ways to do so, with end results of each different way. I feel this would be EXTREMELY helpful to so many! Thanks so much for your videos and sharing your experience and knowledge with us!
Those are all great suggestion. I did a video about air ruclips.net/video/G8BRifGG0hE/видео.html and touch on some of your comments but a video devoted to ROR sounds interesting. I'll see how to work that into my Que. Thanks for your comments and suggestions. :-)
I’ve been roasting quite a while. Your video gave me a little more perspective. I’ve tried different temps and rates of air flow. I’ve had some really good tasting coffee and some mediocre. What would be helpful for me would be to see an artisan graph of one of your roasts. A picture would be worth a thousand words.
Thanks for watching Carson. Ultimately, the ending temperature of your roast determines how light or dark your coffee will be. You can use the development phase to balance acidity, sweetness and origin flavors. I will be talking more about this in my profile series.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab ok, I am roasting off the behmor 2000ab and I have been tracking my roasts and looking at data and graphing it and then cupping them a couple of days later, I usually go p5 til browning switch to p4 during browning and then first crack I will bring it down to p1, in my mind if I stop the roast in the beginning of first crack I will get light, in the middle medium, and towards the end of 1st crack dark, correct me if I am wrong on that but I am also sampling 20 different beans to see which ones I want as my main beans to possibly sell, but how can I tell if I should make adjustments and if I should go lighter and darker based off the taste during cupping
Question on extending development time into 2nd crack. Behmor 1600+, Honduran hard beans, 1/2 lb (227g) charge. I've roasted around 60lbs of these beans so 120 roasts and have lots of data curves stored in the Roastmaster app. Honduran beans, per web writers, taste better from darker than lighter roasts so I go for City+ to FC color. For the first 50 lbs of beans I used manual mode to get the heat as high as possible. I followed your guidance and cut power to P4 just before I expected 1st crack, sped up the drum, then P3 mid-development. I aimed for max 20% development time again per you (thank you, excellent guidance) and this was generally just as 1st crack ended. Coffee was fine. I let one run long accidentally and got to 2nd crack. Really liked the extra carmelization and decided to purpsosely extend the development time and try to reach 2nd crack. My roast times went from 15:00 to 19:00 (just finished one 5 minutes ago) which I think is more baking than roasting. My question relates to temperature during development. If you plan on extending the roast to 2nd crack do you still reduce the power during 1st crack? I'm thinking I should maintain P5 through most of 1st crack, then P4 and finally P3 as I anticipate 2nd crack. The Development time went to 40% and I'm guessing you'd suggest to reduce that with higher roast temperatures that speed up the 1st crack duration and reduce the waiting period before 2nd crack. A reasonable answer will be "Just try and taste the result" but I'm hoping you can give some advice on reducing roast temp prior to 1st and/or 2nd crack. Thanks!
Just did a repeat. This time I kept P5 until 1st crack was 75% done then went P4. The was only a 20 or 30 second lag until second crack. I’ll keep the beans separate and see what I like. You talk about the flavour compound decoration passed first crack, so I’ll keep playing until I find a mix of sweetness and roasty caramelization that I like.
Doug, I don’t usually roast to 2nd crack but that is a personal choice. To shorten development time yet push your roast into second crack, you will need to keep the momentum going at first crack like you did on that second roast. When going into second crack you will most likely be over 20% but that’s ok. It all comes down to taste. Sounds like you like a little bite in your coffee.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Thanks a lot for the confirmation, much appreciated. These Honduran beans just seem to want a little push past 1C so I'll try to fine the sweet spot.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Having just started down this rabbit hole, I am using a cast iron skillet. Having seen some of your informative videos, trying to emulate some semblance of a profile. I figure if I have any success at this, jumping in with both feet will then be a snap. (Famous last words.)
Learning the fresh roast 540... a little learning curve so far. First batch I tried to follow what some people have had success with, starting at full fan+power and decreasing fan speed only as the roast goes on. First crack happened about 3:30 in and the coffee was badly scorched and unevenly roasted, needed milk to be palatable. So, I switched tehnique to fan 9 and power gradually increasing and had some great roasts while trying to get a sense of how fast drying and browning are happening using sight+smell; and started recently dropping temperature slightly(ex. 2 power levels) when first crack hits and the consistently+flavor continue to improve. Every roast is different! Even the mistakes so far have been good, one roast I missed first crack entirely wound up well into 2nd before ending the roast after my fire alarm was set off. Not exactly something I would want to repeat, but it was still the best dark(probably full french) roast coffee I've ever had.
Thanks for sharing @maybefull. Are you using an extension tube with your SR540? If not, consider it. That really helped bean movement, especially in the drying phase when the green coffee is most heavy. The result was fewer roasting defects and more even roasts. It did cause me to change my roasting approach a little. There is so much bean movement you will need to lower the fan to prevent the beans from flying up into the chaff collector. This change in air causes temperatures to rise. This allows me to use less power/heat throughout the roast. I like your approach with heat being lowered at first crack. I based the temperature decrease on the sound of first crack. If it is weak and trickling in the earlier part of FC I don't lower the heat. If it starts to roll then I am moving my heat lower. How long it your typical total roast time on a washed dense coffee compared to a natural?
@@VirtualCoffeeLab I appreciate your reccomendation and advise for the extension tube! It does seem like it would be a good idea. Something to consider asking for next holiday. So far I'm noticing natural roasting a little more briskly for my taste -- maybe ~15pct faster -- than washed dense, but it's definitely a work in progress.
you are right, naturals seem to roast quicker. I've heard it said that we should treat naturals as though they were already partially roasted. So, your 15% observation seems to make sense. I tend to have a shorter total roast time for naturals because of that fact AND because I usually have a shorter development time for them. If you like fruity coffee, don't let the shorter roast times scare you. If you want to lengthen the roast that is fine but you aren't breaking any rules. I guess I should have asked how long your total roast times are now you hae more control over your roast and you aren't burning your coffee?
You were very clear and informative in your exposition, but I was left wondering how to set the targets too be met. Why four minutes rather than, say, 3 or 5 minutes for the second phase? And, equally, why enter first crack at a particular RoR? Also, you didn't say anything about temperatures to aim for at first crack and drop. Should they too be targeted?
@Matthew Hoffman, depending on your roaster, roasting environment, beans and roasting style, times will vary. The best thing you can do to determine times for each phase is to first understand how your roast can perform. If you already have a history with your roaster, you and all factors are the same except the type of coffee, then it comes down to knowing how your specific coffee will respond to heat. Coffee that is more dense can handle higher temperatures. Less dense coffee absorbs heat quicker and is more prone to roasting defects. My video about how to find and buy great coffee explains a lot of that. Ultimately if you are roasting the with the same machine and all parameters are the same except the coffee, your temperature range may vary by + - 30 degrees..... So, if you charge your roaster at say 380 degrees for a washed ethiopian, you may charge at 365 for a dry process ethiopian from the same farm. As you can see, I don't want to talk about specific times because more than likely our roasters, roasting style and so many other variables influence those times and temps. Having said that, I can answer why i enter first crack at a particular RoR. It all has to do with momentum. The pace of the roast. If I am flying with a high RoR from the beginning of first crack, then my 3rd phase (development phase) will be shorter in time because my temperature increase is high. I need to slow down the roast to a point where I have enough time in development to balance out my flavors (if that is what my goal is for that particular roast) and if my momentum is too fast I won't have enough time. Same thing for the caramelization and acidity, if I go too fast though the roast then those won't be able to form and develop (like i mentioned in the video). On my roaster, first crack happens between 377 and 390 depending on the coffee i am roasting and how fast my roast is moving at the time of first crack. Yes, i can roast the exact same coffee and have different first crack times if I have applied more or less heat during the roast. As far as temps for drop temperatures, on my roaster, depending on the coffee I usually drop my coffee between 397 and 401. Again, this too will vary based on my roast profile, what I am trying to achieve in balancing the coffee and as i mentioned first, the type of coffee i am roasting. I hope my answers were helpful. Please know that my temperatures won't necessarily transfer to your roasting environment and equipment.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Thank you for that thoughtful answer. It seems that roasting a particular bean is analogous to dialling-in a roasted coffee on an espresso machine. You start where previous similar roasts have worked well for you and then change the variables from there depending on what you have learned will happen (if, eg, you grind finer) and what you are trying to achieve.
How are you? I’m new to home roasting 1 week in to be truly honest, is been a blessing finding your channel, is been very helpful. Question? What are your thoughts about Coffee Bean Corral, when it comes to buying beans from them?
Hello Julio, thank you for your message and for watching my videos. Yes, I have ordered from the Coffee Bean Corral. Many people order from them and I have not heard negative comments. I did a video about buying green coffee beans and it includes some helpful tips. You might want to check that out. What are you roasting coffee with?
Hey, friend. Thanks for providing such amazing content. I started roasting coffee at home in this month, however my coffee always tasted a little bit salty and puckery. I controlled my first phase in 4~6 minutes and met first cracks at 12 mins. Could you give me some suggestions to my roasting? Appreciate it.
Thanks for watching my video. It sounds like ou are experiencing an cup that has more acidity thank you like. It is hard to know based on what you shared. What type of coffee are you roasting? How longer after first crack are you roasting? Would you consider your coffee a light roast, medium roast or dark roast? You are not hitting second crack are you? There are a few reasons that could contribute to this. If you are ending your roast as soon as the coffee begins to crack this could cause some of the puckery & salty notes. Try these times and see if that improves your result. 4 minute dry 3 1/2 minute middle phase to first crack 1 1/2 - 2 minutes after first crack until end of roast. Be sure to be careul of your roast temperatures. You don't want to keep pouring on the heat or your coffee will get too dark. Dark coffee will add to bitterness.
Superb! I’ve learned more in the past few days since finding your channel than I have in the past year. I’m using a FreshRoast 800 with 12” Razzo roasting chamber, Mastech MS6514 temp meter, two K type thermocouples, and Artisan software. I have struggled to achieve ANY consistency, but until I started hearing you talk about the 3 stages and percentage of time in each phase, and especially RoR, nothing I have read to date had sunk in. Now things are starting to make sense. I can’t wait to head back to the drawing board and start from scratch with the information you have provided. Thank you!! 🙏🏼
Thanks a million for this great and simple speaking language of roasting coffee. I’ve definitely learned a lot. If it was in my hand I would but this video on top of all roasting videos on you tube. Just a quick question. Could you please suggest a rate of time and temperature to roast coffee for different methods? ( ex. 180c for 5min after dry period) Thanks again 👍🏼
Thanks for your kind and encouraging comments Wael. Temperatures are not really helpful to discuss because they will be different from your roaster to mine. A good way to talk about this is focusing on coffee roasting events and time. When I roast coffee I categorize my time by roast phase. Dry Phase (beginning of roast until coffee turns yellow) Browning Phase (Yellow to first crack) Development Phase (first crack to drop) I set my roast temperatures so my coffee will reach the target phase event within a speific amount of time. For example, I want my coffee to turn yellow in Four minutes and thirty seconds after i start my roast. In order to do that I need my temperature to be X. After my green beans turn yellow I want to hit first crack within 3 minutes so i adjust my heat so the first crack event begins then. Depending on my roasting device, the type of coffee i am roasting, how much coffee, the roast style and much more, I will have to make adjustments to my temperatures to accomplish my phase time goals. If you watch my video "3 Tips For New Home Coffee Roasters" I talk about the phase concept. I hope my answer was helpful.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Wonderful, thanks for your clarification. I was just worried to roast for long time that would make your beans taste like roasted bread. So do you think if the total roasting time is thirty minutes it’s too long?
Yes, 30 minutes is a long time. What type of roasting machine are you using? What roast level are you considering? The total roast times I stay within vary from 7 minutes to 12 minutes. Some people roast a little longer. Some roasting machines can't roast that fast and take 20 minutes. I'm sharing the roasting times I use and others may have a different opinion BUT 30 minutes is a long time.
Shane, that is personal preference. You like a medium roast coffee? Usually with the behmor the roast takes 12-14 minutes. So you probably won't have real fruity acidic coffee (assuming the coffee potentially has those note). So it comes down to bitterness and flavor. The further you go into the roast, the more bitterness will begin to appear and the less bean characteristics will be noticed. What kind of a roast do you usually like? Remember, the Behmor doesn't cool quickly so if you end your roast at say 1:30 past first crack, you can add an extra minute of roasting into the total roast time. That coffee won't cool that quickly if left in the roaster. If you are going all the way to the end of first crack, completely, and then hitting the cool button, your probably roasting 2 minutes past first crack plus the cool down time so almost 3 minutes.
Thank you again for another informative video! I roast 1/2 lb. coffee every 6 days and just wish I could roast more often to learn more! I'm using a Hottop that I just converted to -2K+ and now I can see what is happening during the roast and I also have a record of each roast so I can study and plan the next roast. I do turn the heat down at dry end, but maybe I also need to increase the fan speed higher to help drop the temp even more. The middle phase of my last roast was 3:00 minutes, which was 25% of the total roast time. I haven't tried that coffee yet, but maybe in the morning I'll brew it. That was Guatemala Antigua Pulcal Inteligente from Sweet Maria's. The average ROR during the middle phase was 21°F, dropping to 12.4°F in the third phase.
Hi Adrian, thanks for your comments. I'm interested to hear how your coffee tastes. Not sure but you might want to stretch out the middle phase a little longer if you think your cup tastes a little tart. Depending on the coffee I found that 30-35 percent is a sweet spot. If you like acidic coffee then shorter development times are good. 12% is a little short but it all comes down to what you are tasting in the cup. I'm glad you are noticing and paying attention to these phases and am excited to hear if you have successes with your hottop! As for the fan, if you have your fan set for just a little draw to move out the smoke and add a little convection to your roast that is a great start. I wouldn't mess with it yet. Once you get your charge temps and phase percentages figured out, then you can try bumping up your fan. In my video with Rob Hoos, he said he has his turned up for most of the roast and doesn't touch it BUT his roaster can perform so he isn't just sucking out all of his energy and then crashing his roast. One step at a time, one change at a time. That tip helped me keep my sanity when I started roasting.
@Adrian I am exactly in the same situation as you in that my roasted batch will take 6 or more days to consume, and I wish I could roast more often than that. There are so many things I'd like to try. Maybe I'll have to start just giving coffee away!
@@VirtualCoffeeLab The Guatemala coffee is good, but I'm still lacking the ability to describe coffee notes! Unfortunately that is only a 1 pound bag; it was one of the complementary 8 pounds of greens that came with the roaster. I have one roast left to make changes. I'm still so new at this with the Hottop that I'm spinning! I preheated the roaster to 250°; maybe a higher temp will decrease the drying time? That's what I'll do next. ☕
Hi Kirk. The roaster in the behind me is my Mill City 500 Gram drum roaster. I have highlighted several different roasters on my channel. One of the first questions to ask is batch size. How much coffee do you want to roast per batch? This will determine the type of roaster and budget. A new MC500 is selling for about 6,500 dollars currently. The Kaliedo M2 is a 400 gram drum roaster that sells for under 2,000 dollars. So, if you are looking to buy a first roaster, maybe start with an inexpensive option to begin and see if this is something you want to grow into. Maybe a Behmor, Fresh Roast, Popper, or even a Hive to start out?
Thank you for all notes mentioned in this video, but still for beginner like me, there's some darkness in picture such as the chart shows more than one graph, my request to your kind attention to explain these graphs or curves even hand written...to show timing of each stage..dryness of beans...darkness degrees..first Crack....etc. Thank you in advance...
Thank you for your comments and suggestions. I plan on doing some beginner videos in the near future. They will introduce basic roasting concepts. This should bring shed more light on the roasting process Thank you for watching my video.
Super helpful video to someone like me who's new to roasting and now have a better understanding about R.O.R. and on how to apply fire throughout and plan my the roast ahead 🙌 On the sidenote can I ask how did you modify the artisan software to see the burner Kpa degree to show on the graph? Thanks mike's looking forward to more of your videos
Glad you like the video @Janot Enriquez. The exhaust temperature "ET" is the red line you will see that runs across the artisan graph. I have a probe that is reading the exhaust temperature as well a one that reads the bean temperature "BT". It is interesting you ask about that. I use my ET as a reference for how much Horsepower/energy I am applying in my roast. As the roast progresses, I can lower my energy setting around first crack and the ET will remain in place because the beans have gone exothermic.... they actually begin to start giving off heat. Pretty interesting to watch. I hope I answered your question. Thanks for your encouraging comments.
Great video. My question is: will the notes on the bag always be what you achieve, or can other flavours and aromas develop from the same bean if the profile changes?
Hi Jim, thanks for your question. I can say 100% absolutely that the notes on the bag will not always match what you will roast for several reasons. The roast Profile may not be the same. How they roasted the coffee and how you did are likely different. Many times the seller will identify a “roast level” that produces those notes but that is a general statement of color of the bean….. the type of roast. Modulating the roast profile - Rob Hoos, consultant, master roaster, educator of coffee roasting was on my channel last year. He wrote a book called “modulating the flavor profile of coffee” where he demonstrates how the very same coffee can produce different notes based on roast level and phase percentages within the roast. That is why I talk a sour the length of time devoted towards each of the phases in my videos. Intentional roast styles - we all roast our coffee based on how we like it. Medium roast, city roast, whatever you want to call it as far as roast level, but many of us don’t think about the impact of a short browning phase and how that will affect the flavor. I did a video with the ikawa pro where I did just as Rob Hoos was doing. I modulated the flavor profile of the coffee by changing the brown phase percentage and the total roast time. You can see that video here ruclips.net/video/puAdHc2MpXo/видео.html. The best thing you can do to learn more about roasting is to experiment and taste the changes. Take notes log your roasts and compare. Most important is to use the same coffee when doing this so you can taste the changes. After you have done this and you move on to the next coffee, you can intentionally roast a profile that you think will get you close and then make small changes and taste the difference.
Great video. Something you said you’d cover but I don’t think I picked up on was how to experiment to get different flavors. Would there be some kind of experimental framework to follow? For me with my roaster (Nucleus Link) I have to plan out the curve ahead of time then run the curve vs say a Freshroast where the heat and time are all manual. What would I do to the curve to get a sweeter cup? I know, hard to answer.
That’s a great question. I am starting my “profile” series tomorrow. It is an intro video but future “profile” videos will have several roasters including the LINK I think. Now to answer your question. The link is special in that it can repeat the same profile over and over. It can also roast based on brewing style. I would recommend measuring the same dose (weight) and profile but alter the settings for brew type. Be sure to save the profiles. Now, open and look at the event times, temps, and total roast times for each of the roasts and notice how they are different. Now, brew each of the roasts using the same brew method and taste the difference and make notes. After that experiment, draw some conclusions about the end temperature or the length of the middle phase, or the total roast time. One thing to note a part the link profiles….. many are designed for sample roasting. They tend to be lighter roasts with shorter development times. I’m assuming that is why you are asking your question about sweetness. If you want an easier place to start, and assuming the development phase is short (like 12%) try extending your 12% development to 18% with a 3 degree higher drop temp.
@@VirtualCoffeeLabI’m looking forward to the series. With the link for each profile you can set the development time to be whatever you want, to a point. Beyond that point you actually have to edit the profile slightly. The folks at Link pointed me to a video to do that. And you are right of course, designed for samples and geared toward lighter roasts. It has I think 4 cupping profile packs, each with dozens and dozens of profiles, 3 filter packs each with many many profiles, an OMNI pack that’s designed to roast both filer and espresso (you have to change the developing of course) and these are considered to be ready to drink roasts, and an Espresso pack with numerous profiles. I’ve done about 30 roasts so far. I do a 50g first to make sure I have the right profile based on first crack time before doing a 100g batch. I find the light roasts tasting slightly underdeveloped but I am not used to light roasts. Although I’ve been drinking coffee for 50 years I’ve never been so engrossed in it as I am now.
I think the middle phase is lengthened or shortened a little based on the brew method. Yes, extending the development time and increasing the temps just 2-3 degrees should be a change you can taste. .
Thank you so much for these really valuable information. I’m an amateur roaster and in 8 minutes (plus 1 min ending around 9 mins for development phase) I usually get lucky ending up with V60 light-medium to medium roast with wonderful acidity sweetness balance if I get the heat right at about 210C (I finish the same as my charge temp 210C) on my Aillio V2. Though I am very confused and hope you can please help. Which phase (Drying, Browning, Development) should I drag the time and ROR on if I’m shooting for a medium - medium dark Ethiopia batch for making espresso. I myself found loving the medium roast to be fine for my taste but my family members tend to love the darker less acidity flavors. Thank you so much in advance 🙏🏻
NB , thanks for watching my video. You can lower acidity by lengthening the development phase. When you hit first crack slow down your roast by backing off the heat a little. Instead of spending 1 min in development, spend an additional 15-30 seconds in development... so 1:30 for development Honestly without seeing your current profile I'm taking a stab and making the suggestion I did. Generally speaking longer development will knock down acidity.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Finally I am out of the dark. Its been miserable the past months … I will give it a try this weekend and will come update you. Many thanks again! Have a wonderful weekend 😊
Dear @virtualcoffeelab ! Thanks a lot for super videos!! I had a pro roastery roast my coffee. I have wanted to make a light/medium/dark roast of the same kind of bean. The way they do it, is to follow the same profile each time, but then just drop the beans at different times. For example for light we droppes at 196 degrees c. Medium 202c and dark 205c. The light roast is wayyy to acidic. Would you suggest to either take it up to 199c to tone it down? Or should we maybe extend the time for the development phase and stay around 196-198? I feel like the roastery is just making easy money because they dont change their profile for the different roasts, but I am NO expert! 😅 I wont tell them that a guy from RUclips told me any different, but could you please enlighten me on this subject? Thanks a lot Mike ☕️👍🏾 Kind regards Morten
Hi Morten, I’m no expert either. In my experience, I have heard people do just what you described. Interestingly enough, I’ve use this technique but another technique is to drop your ror at a higher rate just before moving into first crack. I’ve been using this technique for the PNG coffee we are roasting for this big project. In a future video you will see what I’m talking about but for now, let’s say we have a 10 minute roast and your target first crack time is eight 1/2 minutes. At about 7 1/2 minutes you back off the power to lower your ror at a higher rate so you are between 9-11 ror on a downward trend when you hit first crack. Crack starts a slow roll and you now adjust your ror to be more shallow, slowly drifting down to about 5 ror at drop. This steeper descent technique will give you a slower temp increase, with more time in development if needed. I think, depending on the coffee, you might have fun and even surprise yourself tasting the different fruit notes as you fiddle with the different development times while keeping your drop temps down. I’m more in the 202-205 range which throws me into the medium/light category. I’ve never roasted as light as 196 on my drum roaster but we could be closer than we realize. Likely our temps are slightly different because of probes or other reasons. Just for reference, I don’t usually hit first crack till about then. So, are you thinking of dropping right when crack starts? What type of roaster is it?
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Thanks a lot Mike! You can make a book after all this. Really looking forward to your coming project. I will explore many different roasts with this bean :) We are in a similar project, making a small brand from this bean. We have a good relationship with friends in Indonesia, that's why it all started. So, I have taken note of what you just said. The thing that puzzles me is the high level of acidity. So my question is: Does the sweetness develop along side the acidity? And if so, the solution is to prolong the development phase, with a very small ROR? Or even also prolong the browning phase, because in that, lies a mystery of sweetness maybe :D The roaster is a Giesen for 10 kg badges. I dropped the beans just after 1st crack, my mistake. I should probably have waited until at least 199 degrees and a prolonged development. Best regards, Morten
Morten, drop temperature will be a big factor in your acidity level. The longer your development time is, the lower your acidity will be. As far as sweeetness compared to acidity, they are all part of the same reactions taking place. The proteins and carbohydrates react each with its own set of complex flavors that are developed. The amount of time roasting in the browning/middle phase and the development phase influence both acidity and sweetness. So, there is a max sweetness you will achieve as you move into the development phase and then the temp reaches a point and the complex reactions move away from sweetness towards bitterness. When we talk about carmelization for sweetness it is agreed that once second crack hits the origin flavors are all but gone and you are into the bitter side of the roast. This has been my experience and it is not a perfect science. As you are doing, I would experiment with differnt total roast times, and phase times and make notes, paying attention to how the flavor profile changes. I would also suggest you purchase Rob Hoos' great booklet on "modulating the flavor profile of coffee". He shares very clearly what changes he makes during a roast and how that influenced the flavors. Very very interesting and helpful book. Hope I helped answer your question.
I think it might be better said that maximum sweetness will vary from coffee to coffee and take place during the development phase after first crack and before second crack. That is a wide range of time and experimenting will help you find the "sweet spot".
Hi, Beginner roaster here. I own a Behmore 1600 Plus and a Freshroast SR800 I picked up second-hand. Trying to roast Monsooned Malabar for espresso and trying to achieve a light-medium roast with smooth (no acidity) and sweet roast profile. Saw your Malabar video but it's a tad complicated trying to transfer your high-end roaster info to these beginner roasters I am trying to use. Do you have a formula or a roast profile for 1/4 or 1/2 lb batches you could recommend for this monsooned malabar bean on these two machines? Thanks as always!
Hi Andraio, I don't have a formula. In general, lower acidity can be achieved by longer development along with the lighter roast which means lower drop tem. If you watch my video on roasting the Papua New Guinea coffee you will notice I have a low ROR throughout the development phase which allows more time in development but the temperature increase is slow, preventing the coffee from roasting dark. So, that should give you some ideas for roasting lighter and lower acidity. Also, a longer overall roast time will help towards lower acidity. So, low and slow is the theme. The risk is a flat boring coffee. Not sure that is possible with the Monsooned Malabar but just saying.......
I have a popcorn popper as my roaster and cannot control the temperature and the roasting came very fast. My first batch was not very drinkable. I'm not sure when I should turn the popper off. I don't know whether its the grind (medium-fine) or the extent of the roasting time or both. I sure could use some direction/correction. By the way, I do enjoy these videos as they are about the best I have seen in terms of explaining. I am definitely a newbie but want to do the home roasting. Thanks
Hi Tom, thanks for your comment and for watching my videos. Yea, you hit the mail on the head. While a hot air popper is a popular, low cost option to roast coffee, it lacks the ability to control temperature over time. There are various methods to lower the temp including an extension cord, taking off the lid. And even introducing a little cool air into the roasting chamber. Ultimately, controlling the temps with any real accuracy is challenging. The Popper by sweet Maria’s is a larger version of a popcorn popper with both temperature and air control. 90 bucks……. There are other options if you are interested. Knowing when to end the roast depends on your roasting style. What type of coffee are you roasting? What types of flavor notes do you like? If it is a specialty grade coffee, what are the tasting notes on the bag?
What is the advantage or disadvantage of the "soak" after charge? Some use it, many do not. Is it related to a specific bean variety or density? What is the impact to the TP and drying phase?
Great question Joe. For drum roasting, there are several sources of heat which roast the coffee including: Flame/Heating Element Source Hot Air Hot Metal Parts (drum, chasis, Steel Body) The roaster is a giant heat sink and that is why we do the pre-warming, so we aren't trying to warm our roaster up while we are roasting. Now to the "soak" . Exhaust Temperature (the temperature of the hot air as it is leaving the roaster) as mentioned helps us roast the beans (convection). When I am ready to charge my roaster, I don't idle my roaster at the charge temp. I catch it on the upswing. What I mean is I let the roaster cool down just a little and then kick on the flame to heat up the air. That process only takes about a minute or two and that is why you see my ET around 415-425 while my BT is down at 180-185 for many of my roasts. That 35-45 degree difference in temps allows me to keep my roaster flame off, allow the beans to roast but not have a direct flame on the drum. I'm thinking roasting defects. Also, the soak allows me to watch my ET temp and when I get to 375 on the ET I turn on the gas and begin to ramp my way up to the Dry End event. The 375 ET and the TP time and temp are "waypoints" for me to know if I am on track with my roast progress. Then during dry I manage my heat (if necessary) to achieve my exact dry time within a 10-15 second window. I do change these settings based on the type of coffee, Charge weight and roast profile. So the advantage of a soak is it gives me more control to time my initial charge temp and goals and in theory reduces the potential of roasting defects. I have no science behind the roasting defect statement, only my experiences. The soak is especially important with lower density beans BUT I use it for most roasts because of the control thing.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab I sort of understand your goals with the soak. There are two types of heat energy exchanges in the roasting process. Conductive (slow by contact) and convective (efficient). From what I understood, the initial temp or charge temp reflected the mass heat energy of the metal drum, etc. and when charge occurs, then bean mass (lower temp) crashes around making contact with the drum and other beans conducting the heat. When TP is reached, that is the indication that the beans relative temp is equal to the internal mass temp, having absorbed by contact conduction. If too much energy is in the roaster at charge, the beans especially dense ones get their surface heated too rapidly (tipping, scorching). So I assumed the "soak" removed the constant heating to allow beans to equilibrate before pushing more energy into the system. Sorry, scientist here, I try to charge at 210 - 230 then maintain the ET around the same by end. I've heard you should never let the TP drop too low and not to push convective heat in the beginning. I usually start air flow at minimum with gas on relatively high. As dry phase continues, watching RoR, I adjust gas downward and then airflow upward to keep ET near start. Just wondering if I can load dense beans at 230, drop gas, "soak absorb" for about 1 minute then kicking back on the high gas about 60 - 70%. From your explanation it sounds like you are doing something similar to get better control while monitoring the probes. (I use grams, g/L, Celsius and kPa sometimes bar.) Just about to start a batch of Haitian Marre Blanc @664 g/L which puts the density in medium range. Maybe a 45 sec. soak after charge of 210 might show some advantage.
Joe, a couple of clarifications to make sure we are on the same page. 1. if too much energy in the roaster, then LOW DENSITY beans can get roasting defects. 2. You are chargeing with ET and BT are the same temp. My ET is usually 35-40 F degrees higher than my BT at charge. This allows me to have gas off for first 30 seconds to 1 minute. 3. Soak is flexible based on ET, TP time and temps as well as the batch size.
Another great video, Mike. I now see that I was receiving some misinformation regarding the Browning Phase. From some of the first things I recall reading, the Browning Phase was simply where the beans got more and more brown as they went through it. I never, until now, realized that a lot of chemical action was taking place. Why? Because what I also learned was where the Development Phase was terminated defined whether the coffee was lighter, more acidic and and more fruity or heavier, less acidic, and more chocolatey. Although those statements are indeed true, I didn't realize that the origination of acids and sugars actually occurred during the Browning Phase. It's not crazy to think the way I did in light of the Phase names: Browning and Development. Maybe Browning should have been called the Acid, and Sugar Phase and Development should have been called the Balancing Phase or something like that. Yes, in the Browning Phase the beans do get brown. But I don't think anyone can taste the color brown. We can taste acids and sugars. Now I'm thinking that most likely there are more chemicals than just acids and sugars that are beginning in that Maillard Phase, maybe?
Hi Lou, I'm glad it was helpful We are all in the learning mode when it comes to roasting coffee. I scratched the surface of the science behind coffee roasting and flavor development. There is a lot more going on than I will ever be able to understand when it comes to flavor development BUT I can experiment and continue to learn as I roast. The names of the phases are confusing at times based on what is happening BUT I think some of that is due to the fact that experts are still learning about what happens to coffee being roasted. As far as the composition of a green coffee bean goes, there is more in there I didn't cover. I was trying to stay focused and offer enough info for us to think about and experiment with without having to put on a white lab coat... haha. Take a look at this link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffee_bean#Composition
Thanks for your good content video. What I don't understand about sample roasters like Ikawa and Roest. Why that roaster only need 7 - 8 minutes to roast coffee?
Hello Jinn, those roasters both use hot air right? That could be one reason. My drum roaster can roast short roasts also but my usual roasts range from 8-12 minutes depending on the coffee.
Hi Mike, Have you ever dropped a roast short of FC fully ending with a drum roaster like a Kaleido or any drum roaster to yield a lighter roast and still have the bean roasted all the way through? I’m still trying to obtain a lighter roast on an Ethiopian. Thanks!
Hi Jeff, yes I have dropped while crack is still going. I have an artisan profile for the M2 roasting an Ethiopian natural that gives a pretty nice result. You could lower your ror a little more to keep the temp down a couple degrees to make it even lighter. You can download it free at www.buymeacoffee.com/VirtualCoffeeLab/extras
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Thanks Mike. Hey my M6 dual came with a profile suggestion if you noticed ? for roasting with the Kaleido tablet which I used on an Ethiopian Kochere Washed Org. Perfect sweetness and flavor. Dropped at 190.2c Dev 15.4% 400g Charge.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab No it wasn’t loaded, it was in a Tablet manual. So far it’s my best roast. I also applied it yesterday to a Guatemalan that is resting but smells very sweet. Drum is at 80. Here are the details: 1) Preheat to 170-180c 2) Charge Beans - Burner 40 Air 40 3) @TP - Burner 80 Air 40 4) @Dry End - Burner 60 Air 40 5) @FC Start - Burner 20 Air 80 6) @FC End - Burner 0 Air 0. (I think I had the Air at 60 at FC for my roast depends on your desired ROR). Try it! Omg so good! This was of course on the M6 with 400g. But don’t expect the tablet Manual to be different for the M2? Check with Barrett on that.
i know this is years later ;) but i started roasting on a Nuvo eco and i am thinking my brown phase is way to fast, i get 1st crack 3 minutes in and 2nd 4-5 minutes, should i maybe remove from direct heat and keep moving the roaster around?
Thanks for watching. The Nuvo Eco gets really hot and the roast can easily move too fast. In your case it appears you should lower heat overall. Practice finding a heat setting where your beans turn yellow in about 4 minutes and then first crack at 7 min and 30 seconds and then for medium roast end the roast around 9 minutes or longer if you want to go darker. Always keep the beans moving around or they will burn/scorch. Moving them also produces airflow which helps the roasting process. Let me know how that works out
On my last roast with the extension chamber i heard a loud pop. When i emptied out the coffee beans i noticed a white smudge spot on the lower roasting pot. It looks like a thumb print. Unable to feel it or clean ot off. Any thoughts?
Michael, are you referring to the Fresh Roast? If so, it could be some sort of electrical burn? Is your roaster operating properly now? I would contact the manufacture and ask their advice.
That’s a great question. Full transparency here, I’m not positive but I think I know. I’ll try and give an answer. If anyone wants to correct me or add to what I say, I would appreciate it. Here are my thoughts: As heat is applied over time to the coffee bean, the coffee yellows, reactions within the beans compounds take place. Reactions begin to form flavors. Those reactions continue to react, creating new reactions. So, in order for these reactions to take place, the coffee temperatures continue to increase as the coffee heads towards first crack and into development. Body is created by reactions of specific compounds that take place during this roasting process. The question is;”does body increase because temperature increases or the length of time the reactions are permitted to occur ?” I would say “both”. But, I think that too much time or too much temperature increase may decrease body as the compounds breakdown and carbonize.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Thank you and I appreciate your reply. I wouldve given my insight if I have roasted a lot. Ive noticed recently when i tried changing the bean drop temperature with other similar settings from roasting the same beans with similar settings, i find that this increases the body. Will need to roast more to confirm. Thanks again and you have been my inspiration when roasting. Have been getting really great results following your advices and videos! Looking forward to more videos!
Hi Drew. Thanks for watching my video. What are you using to roast your coffee? I wish I could give you a time but It depends on the type of coffee, your desired roast level, and batch size. Let me know and I can share some suggestions. Are you currently roasting coffee?
I really wish you went over each phase of roasting, in order, and explained what was happening in each phase. This seems all over the place and its really hard for me to take notes. It would also be useful to offer some general percentages and total roast times for a couple bean densities if they're different, so we have a place to start from. This video is the algebra and I need some calculus so I can put it to better use.
Hi David, thank you for your message. I have a video that explains exactly what you are asking. #3 Tips for new home coffee roasters ruclips.net/video/vWdvkiK10R0/видео.html includes each of the phases (in order) and what is happening in each phase. I also mention percentages and times as examples. These details differ based on your type of roaster, the coffee you are roasting and they style of coffee you like.
@Mrjcharles, thanks for watching my videos. No expert, just sharing what I have learned so far. I'm learning just like everyone else. Thank you for your comment.
Having a real difficult time roasting dry process in my Behmor 2000ab. When i purchase 30lb of beans not realizing how they would perform in my machine thought they would roast up like my wet process. Boy was i wrong... i need help drastically before i ruin any more beans
Hi Mirinda. It is easy for people who roast on a Behmor to push P1, wait for first crack and then decide when to hit the cool button. How are you currently roasting on the Behmor? What is happening with the new dried process coffee? If I had to guess what you are experiencing, the dry process coffee roasts faster right? I have noticed the Dry Process coffee requires a little less heat in the beginning of the roast compared to the washed coffees. First crack happens faster and the coffee seems to get dark quicker. Please explain what is happening where you are "ruining" beans? How are you using the behmor (manual or automatic roast profiles?) how long does your roast last? How long did it take to get to dry end? How long did it take to get to first crack?
Hi, Mike! I never ever ever comment on social media, youtube, etc. BUT i have been enjoying AND learning from your videos for a few months now and i just realized that i could chip in with $ i don't even know if this comment im writing is public OR just for your eyes???? But THANK YOU and keep helping me to learn about roasting :)
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Well thcolor is not what tells me it is inconsistent. Thgrind does. Unroasted center of beans are rubbery & wont grind fine. In contrast optimally roasted bean is also brittle. And grinds fine. I use cast iron bcuz my previous theory is combination roast = wider spectrum flavors. But your video suggest uniform sweet spot. And in this vein, its only common sense. A big fat bean is notoriously thdevil itself 2roast evenly. So, why not roast till yellow, being brittle enough to blend somewhat and chop up bean ( i use commercial blender to grind) in2 granules. Then, roast granules 2easily get nice uniform target result. Also 2get best flavor i dont heat coffee. I soak it overnight then I warm it & strain, pour more water & heat 3times 2extract ALL flavor. I grind 2 powder bcuz granules trap enormous amounts coffee flavor. Industry teaches u throw MASSIVE amount good coffee away. And use expensive paper. I use NO PAPER i use fine metal screen. All these tricks means I use only 10grams coffee per 2quarts RAIN water. Never EVER use anything but Yahwehs distilled rainwater. Starbucks secret is they DISTILL water. There is coffee powder bottom cup i just mix it periodically. Coffee business is profoundly corrupt in that they teach u 2throw MASSIVE amounts of good unused coffee away. Lastly I add FIVE sweetners. I combine sugar, stevia honey & backstrap mollasses in just right amounts 2profoundly widen spectrum of sweetness with depth. I add my homemade vanilla. U MUST use 2 strains at least. Start with 8 oz each Madagaskar & Ugands vanilla to 1 gallon cheap vodka. 1lb vanilla per gallon. I add half tspn this super special per 2quart coffee. People have said its 10 times better then what vanilla they make. I have entire recipe in detail if u want it. Which I honed &refined spanning 10 years.
Good content as always, Mike. I've been working on trying to stretch out the middle phase of my last few roasts and feel like I'm making progress, though I did have one batch that more or less stalled out and led to a weak, sputtery first crack; but flavor-wise, it turned out better than I expected. The roasts I've done since then have been a significant improvement compared to when I just keep heat on full blast until first crack set in. It's difficult to rein in the heat on a Behmor, but I'm getting a better handle on when to cut back to stretch out browning while still having enough momentum for a distinct first crack. Thanks again for your work!
Glad you are having successes Dustin. Yea, the behmor is like a heavy train. It takes a while to get up to speed and then by the time you realize you need to slow it, it can't be stopped ;-) So, becoming comfortable with your roaster you can anticipate when you should start to back off the energy. Nice work. I can't tell you how many times I have roasted and thought i totally screwed up but the coffee ended up tasting pretty good. Thanks for your kind comments.
I tried my first two roasts today. 1. 425 convection oven -didn't turn out well. Dry end was around 8-9 min, and first crack was at 25min. I was listening for it and didn't hear, or I missed it. -either way, it was a bit dark but not super dark. It had a noticeable burnt/bitter taste and had a muted smell. -the coffee tasted burnt. 2. 450 convection oven Dry end around 7:10, First crack 11:30 and I dropped it at 13. -much better. color ended up being brown. -the smell was more flavorful but still not as strong as I hoped. -the coffee tasted good, had decent flavor with acidity but I can feel there is more flavor that can be gotten. -I'm thinking I may start higher temp to get to dry end a bit quicker (start at 460 degree), then drop to 440 during the middle phase (while keeping the oven door open for about 10 seconds to help cool), I am trying to get the middle phase to be about 4 min or so... Question 1: If I drop the temp after dry end, will it delay my first crack time by a lot? (b/c in my first roast, due to the low temp, first crack didn't come for a long time. Question 2: how do I finish that last 2 minutes after first crack? Should I keep it at the lower temp or raise/lower the temp? -what happens if I keep the temp the same/lower or higher?
Sounds like you are learning as you roast Paul. That is exciting and you are able to see, hear and taste a difference in your roast just by changing your heat and time. You are on the right track. I would agree to go ahead and try the higher temp. You will want to lower your temps so you don't fly through the roast too fast. You want to control your temperatures so you can slow down the roast momentum and coordinate your first crack time. You will have to figure out what temp is necessary to accomplish this. So, if you want a 4 minute middle phase, figure out what temp will get you there. If you find it is too short, then you may have to lower your temps earlier, before dry end. The oven will still stay hot but you are slowing the roast down so you have a 4 minute browning phase. Does that makes sense? You need to do the same thing with the development phase. So how do you know what is the right time? It depends on your style of roasting. If you are looking for a nice balanced cup, consider 20% of your total roast time being spent in the development phase. A 10 minute total roast time will mean 2 minutes will be spent in the development phase. Also, the color of the bean. How far into the roast do you want to take the bean? 2nd crack? Dark coffee? Bean color and your oven temp will help you begin to understand what happens the further you go past first crack. Your taste buds will also tell you. How do you finish the last 2 minutes of your roast? How do you know what temp to hold at? Pay attention to first crack. If it is weak, slow and seems to crack over a minute then consider coming into first crack a couple of degrees higher temp. If your crack is fast, over a short period of time 20 seconds or less then you are hitting first crack with too much heat (too much momentum) and your development time of 2 minutes will take your coffee darker than you want. Finding the right momentum for your first crack will help you get a nice development. I would say leave your temp the same at first crack or lower it a couple of degrees. Whatever it takes to get your 2 minutes without going too dark.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab I'm roasting 3/4 cup at a time so it's not a lot and I may end up throwing some of the roasts out. I'm just trying to find a good roast and am willing to sacrifice some beans in the process. 3rd roast: 460 degree start. Dry end around 5:15. I am still kind of guessing when I get to dry end. Also because the roast doesn't seem entirely even in the front end, where I'll see the edges get yellow/brown before the middle. -I switch to 440 at 5:15, leaving the oven door open for 25 seconds. First crack is around 10:50 and I drop at 12:53. It doesn't seemed to have cracked a lot and it was getting too dark so I ended it. -The beans didn't cook all the way through. The 440 is too low. after cooking... After about 1 hr it still has a noticeable uncooked smell. -I brewed it, and it tasted weak and bland. -bad roast, the middle phase was too weak and didn't cook 4th roast: 460 degree start. Dry end around 6min (same as above, I'm still not confident on when I get into dry end). -I switch to 450 at 6min. First crack around 9:30 and cracks until about 12. one or two to start and around 11:30-12 it's cracking. Drop at 13. -smells much better than #3. It's cooked. The smell is ok but it's more subtle than my good #2 batch. -color is good, I like it between brown and deep brown -haven't brewed it yet. 5th roast: 450 degree start. Dry end at around 6:20 (my 2nd batch started at 450 and I got dry end at 7:10). -460 degree at 7:10 First crack around 9 and cracked till about 11 -dropped temp back to 450 at 9:30 as it started to crack quickly and I got concerned. dropped at 12 -smells good. -darker than my #2/4, but the smell is similar to my good roast #2. -haven't brewed it yet. #1/3 were bad. 1 was burnt and 3 was not cooked. #2 was my best so far, 450 throughout, 13 minute drop #4 I think will be ok, more subtle smell than #2 #5 I think will be good. It smells like #2, still kind early to see how it'll end up. #5, i got to first crack quickest and had the longest finish, so it's noticably darker than #2, but not dark. So, all in all, I think for now, I'm going to roast at 450 with a slight increase during the browning and finish around about 2 min after first crack.
@@paullee1521 great information. Way to stick at it and keep trying. Did you notice that roast 2 had a longer dry than roast 5 even though the temps were the same. This could be because the beans were spread out differently OR your oven was pre-heated better? What do you think? I mentioned to slow the roast down a little after dry end and then watch carefully as you start first crack. You had a lot of momentum on the 5th roast. When it cracks fast you have too much momentum if you are roasting for a medium type roast. You will want to lower your heat during the last phase BUT you may need to lower it earlier because the oven environment is slow to change temps and the beans already have absorbed the heat and are now starting to give off heat at first crack (exothermic reaction).
@@VirtualCoffeeLab So, I completed my first 2 lb bag of beans with the 7 roast above. I think I got overly concerned about burning so I pulled them all too early. Some way to early so they didn't complete the roast and some a bit early so it's a light medium roast, maybe one medium roast. But, the light medium/medium (I just combined them all in one bag) and the espresso and lattes tastes very good. So, I just ordered a 5lb bag and will try a roast this week with my 450/460 settings and try to get comfortable with a good medium roast. A medium roast seems to be have the sweet savory taste that most people like. My church has an espresso machine and we drink a lot of coffee so I can go through about 1.5lbs a week. This way I can get a good number of roasts done without having to drink it all and we all get fresh roasted coffee every week. So, that is reason I am doing so many roasts. I'm sticking to 1 cup per roast and doing multiple roasts b/c as you mentioned, the spread of the beans, I'm trying to keep that stable for the time being. I don't think I know how my roast is working well enough to add the change in quantity, yet.
Paul, not sure if I mentioned this but is it possible to use a some sort of coking barrier between the tray and the coffee to reduce scorching? Did we talk about this, i forgot. Some use a material between the hot metal and the beans to reduce the roasting defect. Glad it tastes good!
Do you have an idea of how far you can take a roast and retain some sweetness and light acidity while still getting that smokey bittersweet chocolate like taste? Right now, I get that by making blends of light, medium and dark roasted coffee. But the roasting bug is kind of starting to bite me and make me curious. As an aside I do tend to like darker roasted coffee. Something in the full city plus to Vienna range. But I don't tend to like things labeled French, Italian or Espresso roast.
Hello Kit, thanks for watching and for being a subscriber to my channel. I can't give a specific time or temperature as a reference where sweetness and acidity go away during the roasting process. You would need to experiment based on your coffee. The varietal, moisture level, and profile will influence the result. Generally speaking, I think that once you pass 14% moisture loss you will start to lose the acidity and sweetness, maybe even sooner. You are roasting in a frying pan so I'm not sure how to address the smoky note you desire other than to roast dark. If you were using a drum roaster I would suggest you keep your airflow low so the smoke lingers in the drum, adding a dirty smokey note. Blending sounds like your best option.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Hey, thanks that is actually quite helpful. I just got started with all of this, so I am not sure how direct the correlation of moisture vs total weight loss, but my average loss seems to be around 18% (total). Idk about going as far as a drum roaster but I am considering an SR800. I was considering a popcorn popper but I know I like to experiment with things so I think the fresh roast will be worth the investment. I will keep watching and experimenting. Thank you for the advice!
@@VirtualCoffeeLab I just thought I'd give a little update. My wife suggested that I get a popcorn popper because we had an amazon gift card laying around. I have tried a bunch of roast times based on sight, sound and smell over the past three weeks and I think I have things dialed in. I have learned that while I like dark roast sold commercially, I don't care for home roasted batches being dark. At least not in the popper. The coffee seems to be about one roast level past where you stop it, for me. Maybe less so visually but for sure taste wise. Anway, I tried going to second crack. This starts at around 9:45 seconds on my popper. The resulting coffee looks good and smells good but tastes awful. Like eating charcoal. Long story short: I have decided that anything between 6-8 minutes make a drinkable coffee when using 100 grams (seems to give me the most even roast with my Brazil). Personally, I like 6:30-7:00. This seems to give me something that taste similar to a full city to full city + if I buy it from the store. Other notes that I have made are as follows. It seems that stirring the coffee with a chop stick until it is light enough to adiate itself helps with an even roast. Also, degassing is an interesting topic. For me, for filter coffee, I like degassing to a minimum of 5 days, but a week is better. I have no idea if this is just my preference. If it is because I roasted in a popper. Or because of the type of coffee or the roast level I am using. For reference I am using a pop air popper. It looks identical to a Nostalgia. I have no idea if it is or not though. I foresee a real home roaster in my future but idk what. I am having a blast watching and learning from all of your videos. As always, thank you!
Thanks for the update Kit. I'm glad you are having success with the popcorn popper. Typically a brazil is a less dense bean than most other single origin beans. I think you will find your times change with more dense beans if you every give that a try. You might want to make notes of how things change when you roast different beans as it will prepare you for your next roaster in the future. Nice work!
As I understand it, in manipulating the temperature to stretch out the development time, there is the danger of a stalled roast. What is a stalled roast and why is it so bad? Also, is a stalled roast and a baked roast the same thing? Do you have a video where you explain these concepts?
Hi Chuck, I address these concepts regarding rate of rise (ROR) which answers some of your question. See 6:39 on this video. As far as stalling the roast, what I mean is your ROR gets so low your temperatures don't increase anymore. Your ROR is zero and that means your temps are not increasing, which means you won't make it to first crack. That is a stalled roast. This impacts the coffee and your end result is under developed coffee. Baking coffee is a kind of the opposite. Your ROR drops really fast and this impacts your flavor development. Those reactions that are taking place in the beans are impacted and the end result is a flat, boring coffee that has little characteristics as far as taste. Some say "woody", "paper" or "straw" flavors are what they experience. There may be other opinions about this. I am still trying to understand these concepts better so if anyone else would like to correct me or add to what I am saying I would appreciate that.
I just started roasting again after an 8yr hiatus. I have an iRoast2 and have been working with temp programs to try and get the phases you discuss. I fell my coffee is getting to the dry yellow stage and then first crack too fast. Wonder if you might be able to suggest a tweak to my program based on my current program and notes. July 27, 82F 340 for 4min 375 for 4min 400 for 3min 415 for 3min 425 for 1min 150g of SW New Classic Espresso blend. Yellow at 3min Tan at 4:30 1st Cracking at 6:30 2nd crack just start at 9:30 and stopped to cool. I’m not even utilizing the two higher temps. Should I start at an even lower temp and more slowly step up to say 375 with a final stage at 400 for development?
Hi Mark, thanks for your comment and question. I don't have any direct experience with the iRoast2 so my comments will be based on my own experiences with my drum roaster, charge temperatures and total roast time. I also wanted to say that I personally don't roast to 2nd crack so my comments to follow are bias towards a medium to medium light roast. I'm saying that to maintain some context with the way I provide my answer. Based on what you have shared, there are a few "Topics" we should hit. I will reference some of my videos because they will offer more details. 1. Charge Temperature - ruclips.net/video/kVUtjmGjCJA/видео.html&pp=sAQA Yes, I would lower your charge temp for a couple of reasons. First, it will lengthen the dry phase, answering your question about the 375 temp. Second, using a lower charge temp will help you set the pace for the rest of your roast. There is a sweet spot for every roaster (a temp range for charge) usually within 10 degrees depending on the type of coffee. 2. Dry Phase Length - ruclips.net/video/0sDGXYvQBk0/видео.html&pp=sAQA I think the dry phase is the most important phase in coffee roasting because it will make or break your roast. Too hot and your will have a fast dry phases usually mean shorter browning phase and too much momentum through the whole roast. To cold means a long dragged out roast that complicates the rest of the phases. You will be "dragging your coffee through the roast because of your lower temps. You watched my "browning phase" video about how to roast sweet and flavorful coffee. We wouldn't be able to do that if our charge temp and dry phase was out of wack. 3. "Final stage at 400 for development" - I don't know what 400 degrees would be on your roaster. I have talked with people who go to 2nd crack and they are at 425. My point in saying that is temps are difficult to discuss because our probes, machines, environmental conditions are different. It might be better to talk percentages of development, bean color, texture and smell. You and I have different preferences for the end roast development percentage and color and even events (2nd crack) so I'm not sure how to answer your question. I did a video on Development here ruclips.net/video/E1s5zto9L-M/видео.html&pp=sAQA and that might be helpful for you. Because you are going to 2nd crack you have to factors to watch, really the most important is momentum. You need enough momentum to push you to 2nd crack BUT you don't want to fly through the browning phase. So, consider making your slope more shallow when you hit first crack so you don't bleed off too much of your ROR, allowing you to keep moving through the phase to 2nd crack. You will notice your drop temp will vary based on how much momentum/speed your roast is progressing, especially near the end. Let me know what you think about my comments. I hope they have been helpful.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Thank you for that detailed response. I'm aware that the temp set points are just targets. Also, second crack isn't my goal, it's just where I ended up when the color looked right. Likely a 325 charge temp for 4min followed by 350 and then 375 would do a better job of stretching the drying and browning phase. I'm working my way through your videos, just found you three days ago. I might pick up some "cheap" green coffee off amazon just to play around with with no concern for how it comes out other than to learn. I'm researching a new roaster and I think I've narrowed it down to the Behmor 2000AB, Gene Cafe and the Kandi Wide. Those seem to be the ones in the $400-$700 range. The next step up is to say a Hottop for $1200 but I don't see enough upgrade for the buck there.
Hi Mark,, I read your reply and there are several hottop users that subscribe to this channel and quite a few Behmor users. I interviewed a new Behmor guy (Lou) who was learning to roast on the Behmor and we talked about what he was doing, his roasting challenges and some of the limitations of the Behmor. Actually, look here in the comments and you will see @Luigi Collins comment on this video and he is the one this video with me - ruclips.net/video/ZR381-XK32Y/видео.html&pp=sAQA Lou just shared with me this week that he was able to get his first great tasting lighter roast with the Behmor.... he was pretty excited. Thanks for your reply and for watching my videos.
Hi Joe. You might get different opinions on this topic. Some mark first crack at the very first crack. I mark first crack when I hear a succession of cracks. It doesn’t make much difference when, as long as you are consistent from roast to roast. Same thing with dry end . End of first crack would be when the succession of cracks ends. There will always be stragglers an I don’t count them.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab To muddle the milestones, use green blends where different densities achieve different endpoints. I try to size grade (sort) my greens with sieves so the uniformity of the volumes and densities match but there are still many different individual beans that crack first and last. I've tried to rely on a Gaussian curve type sample for 1C but get fooled often while thinking the crescendo ended while early 2C starts up.
Ahh, now I better understand your original question. Because you are blending your crack even is broadened because you are roasting more than one coffee at a time (blend). I don't blend greens for roasting for that reason and I don't recommend this method to others. Milestone events can be difficult to mark on the roasting timeline. As you have said, densities, varieties and bean size are variables that will affect our ability to watch, smell and hear the changes to the beans while they are roasting. In my mind it is a free for all trying to track what is happening to my roast. I know there are others who do this and if it works for them that is great, but I recommend blending coffee after they are roasted.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab, get that roaster outta my face...! 🤣 One of my favorite movies also. Quote it all the time. Nacho fans are few, but strong. I've just gotten into roasting, so I'm quite....well....green (pardon the pun). I bought a wire rotisserie basket meant for BBQs. Modified it to be on a threaded rod shaft. Suspended over a propane open flame (beer brewing burner) and inside a metal shroud to contain the heat a bit. Driven by a cordless drill with a hose clamp on trigger to keep rotating speed slow and constant. You talk about some very specific and detailed topics in this video. I can appreciate the expertise, but I'm just a cave man trying to roast coffee out in my shop. Want pics? Just say the word. Got advice for a simpleton such as myself? Fire away. Thanks for the video. I enjoyed it and learned a bit.
1. How do we determine the ROR? For example of drying phase, starting temp is 20C, and DE is 160C, total time is 20 mins, so the ROR is 140/20= 7C/min. Is this correct?if my calculation is correct, what is the recommended ROR for each stage ? 2. I normally use 160C (320F) as the DE point, is this guideline correct?
E equal MC2, here is my reply: 1. Rate of Rise can be calculated by using your current temp and subtracting the temp reading from the previous minute. That is your RoR for 1 minute. Calculate your RoR per minute. Is your dry time 20 minutes? As far as ROR for each stage, the important, more helpful answer would be to think of it in terms of momentum during your roast. So, if you have too much momentum, too much heat being applied coming into the middle phase (browning) then you will move too fast through that phase and your flavors won't have time to react, form and develop. So, it won't be helpful for me to give you a RoR to go by. I can say that on my roaster, for my environment and most of the coffee I am roasting, I can achieve a top ROR of 25 during dry and then I want to target my RoR to be around 12-14 when I reach first crack SO I can be in a comfortable momentum to have enough time in the 3rd phase. That means I have to work hard to get my RoR down during the middle phase not only for what I just said, but also to allow enough time in my middle phase for coffee flavor development. 2. DE (Dry End) isn't always the same temp but on most coffee will be close. I would always use my sight to determine when the coffee has completed green and you can call DE (yellow)
Virtual Coffee Lab - Home Coffee Roaste. Thanks for the explanation. During drying phase, my ROR is about as low as 17 toad high as about 22C/minute. And browning phase is between 12-15C/minute. The development phase in most cases between 2-2.5 minutes after first crack. In terms of aroma, beans does smells some aroma, it more prominent after it is grind. The taste is very sweet, this seems to meet my expectation..
@@Presso99 Nice job! Yea, so as far as RoR goes, this is helpful to help us visually see our momentum in the roast so we can prevent too fast or too slow roast progression.
Rather than trying so hard to roast coffee to pinpoint the sought balance between fruity taste and caramel/chocolate taste, wouldn't it be easier from the practical point of view to roast two batches of coffee distinctly differently (dark roast and light roast) and then to combine these two roasts, in various proportions, to achieve the desired balance?
Hi Eugene, thanks for your comment and for watching. I understand why you are asking that question. As a matter of fact, it is common for people to blend two or more different coffees together. I have not seen two different roast levels of the same coffee blended though. For me, roasting and drinking a single origin coffee is an experience. Depending on so many factors from the soil, weather, varietal, fermentation, processing, storage, import time and more, you and I have a wonderful opportunity to roast that special coffee to optimize the flavors we want. Because of my roasting plan, I roasted a wonderful Honduran coffee that was sweet, had a raspberry note, milk chocolate and caramel. It was not roasty, nor was it under roasted. These are personal preferences we get to choose when we roast. I think it would be easier for me to roast a single roast like this one, rather than two different roasts to try and achieve the balance you are talking about. If I did the light and dark blend, I would have the dark notes in the coffee. The roasty notes would be in the cup. By the way, we don’t talk about the brew method. After all of that hard work to get a great cup(farm to roast) we can still mess things up with our brewing. It’s pretty amazing what we go through for a great cup of coffee. What do you think?🤔
What is the temperature lag time from the outside to the center of a coffee bean? How long does the entire bean take to respond to a change in temperature?
Hi Geofrey. Thanks for watching my video. Are you asking about heat penetrating to the center for a fully roasted coffee bean or are you talking about cooling? Please reply and include more details to the questions I have below. Then I might be able to offer an educated guess. There are lots of variables like bean density and size. What are you using to roast coffee? What temperature are you dropping your coffee? How long is your total roast time? How much coffee are you roasting at one time? How are you cooling your coffee?
@@VirtualCoffeeLab I'm using an air corn popper. My question relates to evenly roasting each individual bean - since I don't have fine control over the input air temperature, I wonder if the outside is getting [over]done before the inside. With the power output of this machine and average ambient temperature at my house, going from yellow to second crack never takes more than four minutes. (The time from power-on to yellow is more variable.) Is this too fast for the inside of the coffee to achieve a well-developed roast?
OK Geofrey, your question makes more sense now. Yes, that is one of my concerns about off the shelf hot air popcorn poppers. They will brown the coffee and do it quickly. Using hot air to roast coffee and shorter roast times go hand in hand. I'm still trying to figure out a "percentage" of time the roast goes quicker but if I would have to guess, I would say 20-30%. So a 9 minute roast on my drum roaster might look more like 6 minutes on a hot air roaster. I still believe the concept of roast phases and managing a percentage of the total roast time in each phase applies to air roasting. Just an overall shorter period of time. Now, having said that, a 4 minute roast is really fast. Most likely the outside is more roasted than the inside. I would bet on it. There are ways to slow your roast down but the real issue isn't just slowing it down, it is controlling the heat so you can slow down your roast in the middle phase and development phase. If you are interested in this, consider watching my video on the new Sweet Marias Popper and you can see how it works and how I am able to use the variable temperature control to control the amount of time in each of the roast phases ruclips.net/video/p472YkRZEfM/видео.html One important exercise you can do is to break open a bean you have roasted and look at the color difference between the outer and inner bean. Most likely the outer bean will be darker. It may not be a clearly visible way, depending on how dark and or how fast your roast was.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab I'll see about cutting beans in half...maybe grind it down with sandpaper to get a nice cross-section. So far I've been working on air-pop technique and getting objectively enjoyable results but I expect I'm going to want an upgrade eventually. Thank you for your insight!
@@GeofreySanders sounds good. You can probably just snap them in half along the center line. That should give you a pretty quick idea of what's going on...
That is a great question April. I would like to hear your experiences with documenting moisture loss during roasting. Do you see differences based on the type of coffee you are roasting (assuming you are roasting the same coffee over and over)? Lots of people talk about moisture loss and share their percentages and i think they are doing this to convey the amount of development that has occurred to the bean i think? Personally I used to monitoring my moisture loss percentages but stopped because I am roasting many different coffees that all have different roasting profiles. I could see it being helpful for production roasting though. How are you using moisture loss with your coffee roasting processes? As far as taste goes, wow, I have not looked at moisture loss as a reference for taste. I use smell, bean color, texture, phase percentages and drop temperature and total roast time to craft coffee taste. At one point (a few years ago) I read an amazing article a few years back about monitoring moisture loss during the roasting process: www.roastmagazine.com/resources/Articles/2019/2019_Issue1_JanFeb/Roast_JanFeb19_a2_BakedBeans.pdf Imagine having that type of information during your roast. That would be interesting!
@@VirtualCoffeeLab thank you so much for your response! I am new to roasting and have heard people mention the higher the % of moisture loss, the darker the roast. I myself haven't really noticed that, but then was thinking maybe I'm possibly roasting wrong. I've only been roasting the same coffee, since I just started and am still learning. Your videos are extremely helpful and I truly appreciate you taking the time to write back.
Now I understand why you are asking that question April. What are you using to roast with? There are several things you should be thinking about when determining when to end your roast. Are you aiming for a dark roast? What type of coffee are you currently roasting?
That's interesting. So are you using a camping gas stove or a BBQ grill for your heat source. And, are you monitoring temperatures somehow? How long does it take for your beans to go from green to full yellow? What is your total roast time?
Hello Giovanny, thanks for watching my video. Yea, lots of reactions taking place to form flavors in the middle/browning phase. What are you roasting with?
@@VirtualCoffeeLab I just recently started roasting this last year using a Nesco CR-04-13 which has been discontinued because of fire hazard. Been using it for about a year now, but I keep a good eye on it. However, I'm in the market for a 1kg coffee roaster - I'm looking at the Aillio Bullet Roaster. You got any suggestions?
@@giovannyt.6778 There are several Bullet roaster viewers here on my channel. I have heard great things about the bullet. This link www.home-barista.com/roasting/aillio-bullet-r1-roasting-experience-t43465.html is a good source to look at if you have not seen it already. Other than that I would consider the Aillio Bullet facebook group.
So I’m using a airfryer with a drum. I can only go up to 400 degrees and I figured out it takes 45 minutes to hit second crack. But my coffee tastes a little flat I’ve tried two different beans and it tastes the same. What am I doing wrong?
Hunter. I have never used an air fryer BUT One of my viewers uses an air fryer with very good results. Go to this video and then look for gotelljesussaves user in the comments for that video. He explains in detail how he achieves a 6 minute roast just up to second crack. If I had to guess, he is roasting a smaller quantity of beans than you are. You can pick up the conversation on that thread. 3 ways to increase coffee sweetness while roasting ruclips.net/video/UBjP6JIziLs/видео.html Hope that info was helpful. Your coffee tastes flat because your roast is way way way to long. Once you get your roast times shorter then you can focus on the phase percentages.
the bean changes color from green to yellow. I determine yellow when there is no more green. others may do it differently. I use this method for every roast.
Hi Ken. Currently it seems artisan download is for windows, Mac OS and Linux. I didn’t see iOS or Android. See this link artisan-scope.org/docs/installation/#step-1-download-artisan-for-your-platform
Yeah, i am just a beginner, I have a Sniper M1 with dual system. The capacity of this model is 50g -200g. I have to say that I learned a lot from this machine because Smoke,Power and Roller are adjustable.And the chaff can be collected automatically.The roasted beans' color is very even. For people who are interested in roasting, I reccomend this brand .
Nick, our temperatures are going to be different. Depending on what you are using to roast will have a huge impact on your dry end and first crack. One way to figure all of this out is to look at your total roast time and then back into how much time you want to spend in each phase. So, I'm curious, what are you roasting on and what is your total roast time typically?
@@VirtualCoffeeLab thanks for asking. Your point makes sense. I'm using a fresh roast sr540 w/extension tube. I've got a bean temp probe connected to artisan. I've been roasting a variety of beans but mostly getting bland results. Typically I see end of dry phase around 3 minutes (~300f) and first crack around 10 minutes (~400f) with an average RoR of 14f/min for the dev phase. I usually drop at the end of 1c or after 1-2 minutes for city +
Nick, I think your roaster has the ability to control temperature and air right? If yes, I would allow more time during the dry phase for a couple of reasons. First, this will allow heat to move towards the center of the bean evenly. If you apply too much heat, the outer bean will be brown quicker and you could have an underdeveloped roast. I talked about this on the "why is the dry phase so important" video as well as the "how to roast sweet and flavorful coffee". If you fly through the roast, your roasting the outside of the bean but not all the way through. Second, slowing your dry phase will allow you to control the pace of your roast all the way through the other two phases (browning & development). So, if you heat up your beans too quick during dry, more than likely you will rush through the browning phase too. Try and slow down this phase so you go from green to yellow in in about 4-5 minutes. Then have the browning phase last 3:30 till first crack controlling your temps to aim for that time frame and then do your 1:30-2:00 minute development. I think I heard the freshroast is slow to cool down? Keep that in mind when selecting when to end your roast. I think if you try this profile compared to your faster one, you might get a more flavorful cup. I don't normally like to talk about times when I make recommendations because it is basically a "recipe" and it is better to have you experience and try different times. So, i would highly recommend you watch my video "3 tips for new home coffee roasters" because it discusses all 3 phases and I offer a percentage of the total roast time for each phase and discuss why. It really is important to understand what and why so we can take control of our roasts. I hope that makes sense.
Nick, I meant to also say that by having a short dry phase like you have and then a really long browning phase, you are basically baking your coffee. So, try the changes I just suggested and let me know what happens.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab thanks so much for your explanation, tips and replies. I think you've really helped me improve my roasting. Basically what I was doing before is trying to get a constant declining rate of rise over the entire roast. Which means the highest rate of rise was during the drying phase, then it slowed down for the browning and finishing phases. Now what I do is keep the settings for the slowest rate of rise during the drying phase, then ramp up significantly at the end of drying (~35f/min ror) and aim for a constant declining rate of rise from there(down to
depending on your roasting style and the type of coffee, 15% is normal. It could be 12% to beyond 15% if you are roasting dark. What type of roaster do you have and what is your roasting style/level?
@@VirtualCoffeeLab sr500 depends on my mood. Roasting on high for 8.2 minutes. This coffee not worth a light roast. Full speed fan. These are big bean so they don’t jam up the vent. I started out decades ago with oven/cookie-sheet. Then Poppery II. It caught fire. So bought the anemic SR500
Hello Khaled. Thanks for your comment and for watching my video. Yes, rate of rise is very important. For some home coffee roasting devices like the basic hive, a popcorn popper or frying pan, it is not possible to monitor the rate of rise while roasting. Unless logging software is used, monitoring rate of rise is difficult. Calculating ROR while roasting without software is almost impossible. My opinion for those who don't have logging software to track ROR would be to focus on the phase percentages of the total roast time. This will help them get good flavor profile results. It might not be perfect but it is a great start. What type of roaster are you using to roast coffee Khaled?
Really great video thank you Mike. I have been logging my roasts using the Behmor 2000AB+ with Coffee Roaster Pro app. Of course I can't capture bean temperature on the Behmor, so I am only tracking chamber temperature. Is there a way to figure out how to dial in a roast using chamber temperature and bean color?
@@Presso99 thanks. I am actually looking into that at the moment. I am looking at two different versions. One like you're speaking of and another that actually modifies the roaster. But until I do that I was wondering if there was a way to get close without direct bean temp.
Mike, a couple of videos ago we talked about the behmor and temperatures. Lou (who was in the video) was trying to find out how much different the bean temp would be compared to the roasting chamber. There is a guy who has modified his Behmor to insert a probe for Bean Temp BT and connect it to artisan. That is fine and might provide some helpful info BUT I think that bean color, smell and sound will win the day with the Behmor. As mentioned by E eual MC2, There are external probes you can buy online, kind of like a digital meat thermometer but for higher temps you could checkout but I think those temps will be very similar to what the Behmor reports.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab I am a beginner. I just learn a course about it but i am really interested in this. I am not decide what i should buy yet. I used Boca Boca Coffee Roaster in the class. Your video is really helpful for me. Thank you much 🥰
If roasting beans in a pan there is no way you can write down temperatures, as I constantly swirl the beans in the C.I pan. I know this video dedicated to owners of coffee roasters.
Hello @libertango, yes, that would be impossible. The reality of pan roasting is you are limited to only your senses and time. That means you are still able to manage temperature over time and still roast really good coffee. The concept I have been sharing about the 3 phases of coffee roasting and slowing the roast after dry end still applies to pan roasters although it will b e challenging. Thank you for your comment and for watching my video!
I am by no mean an expert but have roasted at home for years and have tried many many coffees, from cheap blends to the most expensive single origins availible. I have now stopped for a few reasons. You cannot recreate a roast unless you have the exact raw beans and it cannot be a blend, it must be of same age with the same moist levels. On top of that, it has to be the same weather, air preassure, same season, same place and even the exakt same voltage in the power lines if you run your roaster with electricity and so on for it to taste the same. Regarding your statement of getting the most flavours out of all coffees wirh a perfect roast profile is not apliable on all coffees, I have had very good cupped coffees with cheap extremely low scored coffee when toning down unwanted flavours. And there are coffees that not taste nearly as good if you don't hit second crack. And there are also coffees that are nearly undrinkable but taste like best thing ever if you use it to Capuccino/latte milk coffees. Some of them even tasts better when roasting in an air owen instread of an drum roaster. I have at least 30 different way to make coffee, 3 different vacuum, 5 different drop, espressomachines, automatic, mocha, turk, preassure and so on. And in my best Asberger moments I cupped most of them with the same beans on different roasts and roasting equipment. :) I did found the Holy Graal brew once (I think) It was a single origin Brazilian Yellow Bourbon something with somewhat low scores and even low characteristics regarding, body, acidity, sweetness, nutiness, sharpness, clean cup and so on. It was like heaven to taste, sweet nut with a incredibel body and still so clean with an aftertaste of coffee and nuts that stayed in my mouth for hours. It was roasted in an air owen at 230c. I have never tasted any coffee in the world nearly as good. And after several failed attemts to find the exact same coffee and roast it the same way I gave up this hobby. However after a couple of years with no roasting I found your videos and actually roasted a batch a couple of days ago and it was fun.
Hi Jonny, thank you for your message. I'm glad you are back at roasting again. I agree, beans change all the time. You can order beans from the same farm one year and the next they don't seem to taste the same. The beauty about roasting is the uniqueness of the coffee we drink. Some coffee's will never be fruity and sweet. They are a different type and grown in a different climate which makes them unique. I have ad some really really good lower scoring coffee as well. Enjoy your roasting experience and thanks again for your comments.
I hope to share your Facebook account to send you photos of my Roasting results and my chart of Temperature and time to be able to correct what I doing, thanks your videos very useful
I am not a fan of opening the door and losing heat to look at beans. That and the view to see the beans is the horrendous light color and stuff in the way.
Agreed. I open the door because the yellow light makes it hard to see bean color. Some Behmor users have changed their incondesant bulbs for LED and now the light is whiter, not yellow. you might like this behmor roasting video - ruclips.net/video/li_XZd1hrtI/видео.html
Hi Paul, thanks for watching. I'm sorry my video wasn't specific enough. It is challenging to present "how to" videos when the audience is using so many different types of roasters AND coffee. General concepts are most helpful in that situation. Example, the total roast time for small air roaster will be different than a drum roaster or skillet. The comments section here helps address specifics. What type of roaster do you have. Do you have a specific question you are trying to address. Thank you for your honest feedback and for being a subscriber!
Hello Axe2Grind, thanks for your comment. I did explain what dry end is at 1:26 where I say "the beans go from green to yellow....... we hit dry end and the beans are yellow". I talk about first crack at 9:24. I included 3 cards that appear in the upper right corner that have links to "why the dry phase is important "which focuses on the first phase where the dry end event takes place, as well as 3 tips for new home coffee roasters", which covers all of the major events that take place during the roasting process including first crack.
Thanks for watching Dan. The sound quality isn’t the greatest on this video but it is plenty loud. There are two different volume controls you could check. Obviously one is your device. The other is the RUclips player volume slide which could be set low? Sorry you are experiencing problems
Thanks for your message Kathleen. Agreed, I can better now.... That video is over two years old and I was newer at making RUclips videos. Making these video has a learning curve. Especially for someone who is usually not a public speaker. My audience has been very patient with me. Now that I have been doing this for a couple of years I have learned to be more concise. Thank you for your feedback. I hope to put out a new, better version of this video in the coming months. What are you using to roast coffee?
Recently had a one on one session with Mike via the buy me a coffee option. Rarely do you get the opportunity to pick someone's brain in a one on one setting. I tried finding coffee roasting classes locally and had no luck. I binge watched Mike's and other youtuber's videos and still had some targeted questions. Mike asked me my questions ahead of time and then prepared a PDF with my answers. Mike is patient and thorough. Consider supporting him and his efforts via buy me a coffee and a one on one is a steal of a deal. I plan to do another session after I get some more experience under my belt.
It was great to meet with you on Zoom Duke. I'm glad I was able to answer most of your questions and it was a good value for you. I'm looking forward to the next time we get a chance to meet and talk coffee roasting. Thanks for sharing your experience here in this comment.
If there are others who might be interested in a "One-On-One Zoom call" with me to talk coffee roasting see this link:
www.buymeacoffee.com/virtualcoffeelab/extras
Mike really is the best. I too have gained so many skills from him. Last night I spoke to my wife about what I could ask during a zoom call. Thank you for your comment. Best wishes and may you have many great cups to come.
Thank you! I have seen so many people throw up graphs and talk about "rate of rise" without actually explaining what it is. Of course I'd mostly been watching videos about which roasters might be best for various reasons and they apparently assume you know these things already I suppose. I am thankful for your very good verbal description. This is the first time I actually understand what is actually being measured on the graphs. As soon as someone throws up a graph it makes it seem like it must be something so complicated that a graph is necessary to grasp what's happening.
Thank you for your kind comments. I’m glad my videos have been helpful. In my next video, I talk about the roast, while reference a worksheet, then at the end of the video I build a basic graph that visualizes the roast. It is a good transition for people who are learning and I don’t really talk about rate much at all. That might be helpful for you.
Again, thanks for watching!
Great video! Just got my first roaster yesterday and plan on my roasting today. So glad I found your video to get me started on the right path. Keep up the good work.
Thanks. What roaster are you using?
Hey man, I’m Yousif from Saudi Arabia, would like to complement the way you talk, I’m practicing my IELTS test and just watching you talking has improved me. Very clear and words used in place wisely, also the way you explained the middle phase was just perfect, I’m lucky your video the first thing I saw, that saved me a lot of time. Thanks again.
Hello Yousuf. You speak very good English. Are you roasting coffee? Tell me about the type of roaster and coffee you use while roasting coffee. Thank you for your kind words and for watching my videos! Good Luck with your IELTS test.
Don’t they brew green coffee there by law? Coffee houses foment Revolution
Fantastic video! I’ve been roasting without fine tuning for 10 years and never considered adjusting the time and temp. I’ll do this today!
Thanks for watching my video. I'm glad it was helpful for you. Let me know what happens with your roast!
I'm a commercial coffee roaster, and your videos are really awesome. Great, informative presentation.
Wow, thank you for watching my videos! I appreciate the encouragement and kind words. What are you roasting on?
I concur. Diedrich roaster here.
Thanks for all the time and effort that has gone into making these videos. This channel has excellent content.
Glad you enjoy it! It has been a lot of effort, probably 10+ hours per video, and expenses but I am excited I am able to help the home coffee roasting community. The comments area has become a gem and I am grateful for that. Lots of time there but a really helpful source of info. Thanks for watching and the message. I appreciate your recognition of my efforts and the encouraging words.
Helpful video, thanks for sharing! You have a way of making the how and why very clear.
Glad it was helpful David. Thanks for watching and for being a subscriber!
I use a rotisserie basket in an electric oven. Temperature can measured manually in the coffee, or indirectly using an oven thermometer. Continuous rotation and oven fan ensure even heat distribution compared to using a wok or heater gun. Thanks for the explanation on the importance of charting. Cheers!
Hello Alan, thanks for watching. Sounds like you have a process that is working for you. Yes, charting is really helpful and will help you roast some great coffee!
Amazing explanation, you are doing great sir, thank you so much ❤
I’m glad you liked it. I’ve got a new video coming out soon related to the browning phase. Stay tuned!
Thank you for this useful content. Just an idea how to improve your explanations: when you dealing with numbers, curves like different RoRs, it would be much more comprehensible showing it on a diagram or using another kind of visualization. But I really appreciate your thoroughness. Thank you again.
Thanks for your suggestion Ferenc, I really do appreciate it. I agree. As I do more videos, I think I am getting better at presenting my thoughts and including more graphical info. At t some point I will be revisiting this top in more detail and will do as you suggest. Thanks for watching my video!
Great stuff Mike! Tough to weed through all the online info and make sense of it. Your videos make it concise and clear. Keep'em coming!
Thank you for watching Billy. I'm glad my videos have been helpful for you. What are you using to roast coffee?
Wow, learned so much today. Thank you.
Very welcome!
Great video Mike! I'm roasting on a Hive hooked up to Artisan and learning so much from your clear explanations. Thank you very much for helping me with my new hobby! No doubt you have roasted many different beans and wonder if you could share with me what are your top favorite few bean choices???
Hi Ed, I’m so glad my videos have helped you. Yes, I’ve roasted many different coffees. I
Am a sucker for a dry process Ethiopian beans. They are fruity. I am also on the hunt for the blueberry bomb by the way. As far as a specific region of Africa, that isn’t important to me. What is important is high scoring high density African coffee. I am a huge fan of Guatemala Huehuetenango beans. I’m drinking that coffee every week. There are many others coffees I really like from countries like El Salvador, Sumatra, and Colombia.
Super informative as always! I wanted to clarify a couple of things to make sure if I’m understanding correctly regarding ROR. I know the numbers can change a bit but I’ll be using the example numbers you used in the video. I preheated my Behmor 1600 Plus and the starting temp was 230. On P5 the ROR started at about 18. With a target of 20 at dry end do I was a ROR of 20 throughout the drying phase or do I want to dial back the temperature and build up to 20 at dry end? Then during the browning phase the target example was going from 20 ROR to 12 ROR IN 4 minutes. Do you mean let the temperature continue to climb but at a steadily decreasing ROR or let the temperature drop at that rate? I hope this makes sense. Thank you!
Hi Michael. Yea, I could have done a better job explaining that. YES, the ROR (rate of rise) is the temperature increase rate within a period of time. In this case 1 minute I think. So, yes, on a traditional drum roaster the temperature ALWAYS increases throughout the roast, but generally speaking, the rate of increase is less (lower) as you progress through the roast.
The highest rate of increase will occur during the dry phase. You mentioned 18-20 degrees. Now, this part is really important. The examples I gave in my video are based on my drum roaster experience. I still take the concepts and apply them to all roasters BUT the Behmor is a little different. Your ROR profile will NOT be pretty on the Behmor compared to a drum roaster. Why? Because the temperature readings you see on the Behmor are NOT bean temperatures. They are environmental temperatures for the most part. So you're not seeing the real ROR. See my Behmor Artisan video link below where i place probes in the behmor to display both BT and ET temperatures. These are not perfectly accurate either BUT the video does give a good visual representation of the ROR using the the Bean Temperature / BT. Notice how it climbs pretty steeply and then the downward trend of the temp occurs during the middle phase. Again, this isn't a true BT but it shows lower rates of temperature increase as the roast moves towards first crack and the development phase. ruclips.net/video/jm5MsA8poJs/видео.html
I hope my comments make sense. You are correct, but the behmor just isn't the best roaster to discuss ROR because we can't truly measure it. We can only synthesize it.
Thanks for good information. My question is what time does it take to roast medium roast beans
Thank you for watching my video. Keep in mind a "medium" roast level is the temperature range of the beans you are roasting when the roast ends. So my answers below are helpful as long as you remember we are talking about bean temperature. The total roast time for medium roast temperature depends on several things:
1. The type of roasting machine you are using. Roast times for medium can range from 5 minutes to 20 minutes depending on your roaster. Air roasters can roast fast while a frying pan can take 20 minutes. Again, it is all about how fast the heat from your roaster can penetrate the coffee. If you roaster is powerful and an air roaster, the heat will penetrate the bean quicker. If it is a frying pan, the heat is mostly affecting the side of the bean that is laying on the surface of the pan. I am using extreem examples to help explain how the type of roaster you have makes a difference in the ability to roast the coffee to a medium roast.
2. The type of coffee you are roasting will determine how much heat you are able to apply without causing roasting defects like scorching and tipping. The coffee bean density and process can influence the total roast time because of what I just explained. So, if you like a brazil coffee, that might take longer to roast because you are being careful not to apply too much heat in the beginning of the roast and this will cause you to have a longer total roast time to get to a medium temperature roast .
3. Total roast time will affect how the coffee to taste. Even though we end our roast at the same "medium temperature", how fast or slow we roast the coffee will impact the flavor. Try it for yourself. Roast a coffee fast, say in 7 minutes and compare that taste of the same coffee that is roasted in 12 minutes. You will notice a difference. The shorter roast might be more tart and light in body while the longer roast might be a bigger body feel with less acidity
Let me know if you have more questions about this. Have a great week roasting!
Truly appreciate all of the info… thank you!
You are so welcome! I'm glad it is helpful. Thanks for watching and subscribing!
Airflow, drum speed and capacity/batch size are also 3 very important variables in roasting times, roasting quality and uniformity, because of how the coffee batches take on heat.
For example, with the same environment temperature reading a higher airflow setting and drum speed can cause the coffee to cook faster (higher ROR).
On the other hand, with a higher airflow and drum speed, a little lower temperature can be used while keeping a similar ROR.
I'd love to see a video addressing this with real examples. So maybe a video all about controlling ROR throughout each phase. And all the different ways to do so, with end results of each different way.
I feel this would be EXTREMELY helpful to so many!
Thanks so much for your videos and sharing your experience and knowledge with us!
Those are all great suggestion. I did a video about air ruclips.net/video/G8BRifGG0hE/видео.html and touch on some of your comments but a video devoted to ROR sounds interesting. I'll see how to work that into my Que. Thanks for your comments and suggestions. :-)
I’ve been roasting quite a while. Your video gave me a little more perspective. I’ve tried different temps and rates of air flow. I’ve had some really good tasting coffee and some mediocre. What would be helpful for me would be to see an artisan graph of one of your roasts. A picture would be worth a thousand words.
Very informative ty
Glad it was helpful Fenn. Thanks for watching!
Thank you so much! So you’re saying the development stage is how you control if you want a lighter medium or even darker medium roast?
Thanks for watching Carson. Ultimately, the ending temperature of your roast determines how light or dark your coffee will be. You can use the development phase to balance acidity, sweetness and origin flavors. I will be talking more about this in my profile series.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab ok, I am roasting off the behmor 2000ab and I have been tracking my roasts and looking at data and graphing it and then cupping them a couple of days later, I usually go p5 til browning switch to p4 during browning and then first crack I will bring it down to p1, in my mind if I stop the roast in the beginning of first crack I will get light, in the middle medium, and towards the end of 1st crack dark, correct me if I am wrong on that but I am also sampling 20 different beans to see which ones I want as my main beans to possibly sell, but how can I tell if I should make adjustments and if I should go lighter and darker based off the taste during cupping
Question on extending development time into 2nd crack. Behmor 1600+, Honduran hard beans, 1/2 lb (227g) charge. I've roasted around 60lbs of these beans so 120 roasts and have lots of data curves stored in the Roastmaster app. Honduran beans, per web writers, taste better from darker than lighter roasts so I go for City+ to FC color.
For the first 50 lbs of beans I used manual mode to get the heat as high as possible. I followed your guidance and cut power to P4 just before I expected 1st crack, sped up the drum, then P3 mid-development. I aimed for max 20% development time again per you (thank you, excellent guidance) and this was generally just as 1st crack ended. Coffee was fine.
I let one run long accidentally and got to 2nd crack. Really liked the extra carmelization and decided to purpsosely extend the development time and try to reach 2nd crack. My roast times went from 15:00 to 19:00 (just finished one 5 minutes ago) which I think is more baking than roasting. My question relates to temperature during development. If you plan on extending the roast to 2nd crack do you still reduce the power during 1st crack? I'm thinking I should maintain P5 through most of 1st crack, then P4 and finally P3 as I anticipate 2nd crack. The Development time went to 40% and I'm guessing you'd suggest to reduce that with higher roast temperatures that speed up the 1st crack duration and reduce the waiting period before 2nd crack.
A reasonable answer will be "Just try and taste the result" but I'm hoping you can give some advice on reducing roast temp prior to 1st and/or 2nd crack.
Thanks!
Just did a repeat. This time I kept P5 until 1st crack was 75% done then went P4. The was only a 20 or 30 second lag until second crack. I’ll keep the beans separate and see what I like. You talk about the flavour compound decoration passed first crack, so I’ll keep playing until I find a mix of sweetness and roasty caramelization that I like.
Doug, I don’t usually roast to 2nd crack but that is a personal choice. To shorten development time yet push your roast into second crack, you will need to keep the momentum going at first crack like you did on that second roast. When going into second crack you will most likely be over 20% but that’s ok. It all comes down to taste. Sounds like you like a little bite in your coffee.
The further you go into second crack the less sweet and more bitter your coffee will taste
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Thanks a lot for the confirmation, much appreciated. These Honduran beans just seem to want a little push past 1C so I'll try to fine the sweet spot.
Great video! Exactly what I wanted to learn. Thanks!
Glad it was helpful Robert. What are you roasting with?
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Having just started down this rabbit hole, I am using a cast iron skillet. Having seen some of your informative videos, trying to emulate some semblance of a profile. I figure if I have any success at this, jumping in with both feet will then be a snap. (Famous last words.)
Learning the fresh roast 540... a little learning curve so far. First batch I tried to follow what some people have had success with, starting at full fan+power and decreasing fan speed only as the roast goes on. First crack happened about 3:30 in and the coffee was badly scorched and unevenly roasted, needed milk to be palatable. So, I switched tehnique to fan 9 and power gradually increasing and had some great roasts while trying to get a sense of how fast drying and browning are happening using sight+smell; and started recently dropping temperature slightly(ex. 2 power levels) when first crack hits and the consistently+flavor continue to improve. Every roast is different! Even the mistakes so far have been good, one roast I missed first crack entirely wound up well into 2nd before ending the roast after my fire alarm was set off. Not exactly something I would want to repeat, but it was still the best dark(probably full french) roast coffee I've ever had.
Thanks for sharing @maybefull. Are you using an extension tube with your SR540? If not, consider it. That really helped bean movement, especially in the drying phase when the green coffee is most heavy. The result was fewer roasting defects and more even roasts. It did cause me to change my roasting approach a little. There is so much bean movement you will need to lower the fan to prevent the beans from flying up into the chaff collector. This change in air causes temperatures to rise. This allows me to use less power/heat throughout the roast.
I like your approach with heat being lowered at first crack. I based the temperature decrease on the sound of first crack. If it is weak and trickling in the earlier part of FC I don't lower the heat. If it starts to roll then I am moving my heat lower.
How long it your typical total roast time on a washed dense coffee compared to a natural?
@@VirtualCoffeeLab I appreciate your reccomendation and advise for the extension tube! It does seem like it would be a good idea. Something to consider asking for next holiday.
So far I'm noticing natural roasting a little more briskly for my taste -- maybe ~15pct faster -- than washed dense, but it's definitely a work in progress.
you are right, naturals seem to roast quicker. I've heard it said that we should treat naturals as though they were already partially roasted. So, your 15% observation seems to make sense. I tend to have a shorter total roast time for naturals because of that fact AND because I usually have a shorter development time for them. If you like fruity coffee, don't let the shorter roast times scare you. If you want to lengthen the roast that is fine but you aren't breaking any rules. I guess I should have asked how long your total roast times are now you hae more control over your roast and you aren't burning your coffee?
@@VirtualCoffeeLab usually 10-12 for denser washed and 8-10 for natural processed
You were very clear and informative in your exposition, but I was left wondering how to set the targets too be met. Why four minutes rather than, say, 3 or 5 minutes for the second phase? And, equally, why enter first crack at a particular RoR? Also, you didn't say anything about temperatures to aim for at first crack and drop. Should they too be targeted?
@Matthew Hoffman, depending on your roaster, roasting environment, beans and roasting style, times will vary. The best thing you can do to determine times for each phase is to first understand how your roast can perform. If you already have a history with your roaster, you and all factors are the same except the type of coffee, then it comes down to knowing how your specific coffee will respond to heat. Coffee that is more dense can handle higher temperatures. Less dense coffee absorbs heat quicker and is more prone to roasting defects. My video about how to find and buy great coffee explains a lot of that. Ultimately if you are roasting the with the same machine and all parameters are the same except the coffee, your temperature range may vary by + - 30 degrees..... So, if you charge your roaster at say 380 degrees for a washed ethiopian, you may charge at 365 for a dry process ethiopian from the same farm.
As you can see, I don't want to talk about specific times because more than likely our roasters, roasting style and so many other variables influence those times and temps. Having said that, I can answer why i enter first crack at a particular RoR. It all has to do with momentum. The pace of the roast. If I am flying with a high RoR from the beginning of first crack, then my 3rd phase (development phase) will be shorter in time because my temperature increase is high. I need to slow down the roast to a point where I have enough time in development to balance out my flavors (if that is what my goal is for that particular roast) and if my momentum is too fast I won't have enough time. Same thing for the caramelization and acidity, if I go too fast though the roast then those won't be able to form and develop (like i mentioned in the video).
On my roaster, first crack happens between 377 and 390 depending on the coffee i am roasting and how fast my roast is moving at the time of first crack. Yes, i can roast the exact same coffee and have different first crack times if I have applied more or less heat during the roast.
As far as temps for drop temperatures, on my roaster, depending on the coffee I usually drop my coffee between 397 and 401. Again, this too will vary based on my roast profile, what I am trying to achieve in balancing the coffee and as i mentioned first, the type of coffee i am roasting.
I hope my answers were helpful. Please know that my temperatures won't necessarily transfer to your roasting environment and equipment.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Thank you for that thoughtful answer. It seems that roasting a particular bean is analogous to dialling-in a roasted coffee on an espresso machine. You start where previous similar roasts have worked well for you and then change the variables from there depending on what you have learned will happen (if, eg, you grind finer) and what you are trying to achieve.
@@matthewhoffman6868 Very Well Said Matthew.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab That was a fantastic answer. You are a very gifted teacher, and it is much appreciated.
@@floorpizza8074 Thank you for watching my video. I appreciate your encouraging comments!
How are you? I’m new to home roasting 1 week in to be truly honest, is been a blessing finding your channel, is been very helpful. Question? What are your thoughts about Coffee Bean Corral, when it comes to buying beans from them?
Hello Julio, thank you for your message and for watching my videos. Yes, I have ordered from the Coffee Bean Corral. Many people order from them and I have not heard negative comments. I did a video about buying green coffee beans and it includes some helpful tips. You might want to check that out. What are you roasting coffee with?
Hey, friend. Thanks for providing such amazing content. I started roasting coffee at home in this month, however my coffee always tasted a little bit salty and puckery. I controlled my first phase in 4~6 minutes and met first cracks at 12 mins. Could you give me some suggestions to my roasting? Appreciate it.
Thanks for watching. Can you share what type of coffee you are roasting, and what type of roaster you are using please.
Kenya Neri topAA. And my roaster is Nuvo Eco Ceramic Coffee Roaster@@VirtualCoffeeLab
The beans turned brown quickly after turning yellow at about 6～7 mins. Some of em even turned brown from green directly.
Thanks for watching my video. It sounds like ou are experiencing an cup that has more acidity thank you like. It is hard to know based on what you shared. What type of coffee are you roasting? How longer after first crack are you roasting? Would you consider your coffee a light roast, medium roast or dark roast? You are not hitting second crack are you?
There are a few reasons that could contribute to this. If you are ending your roast as soon as the coffee begins to crack this could cause some of the puckery & salty notes. Try these times and see if that improves your result.
4 minute dry
3 1/2 minute middle phase to first crack
1 1/2 - 2 minutes after first crack until end of roast.
Be sure to be careul of your roast temperatures. You don't want to keep pouring on the heat or your coffee will get too dark. Dark coffee will add to bitterness.
Superb! I’ve learned more in the past few days since finding your channel than I have in the past year. I’m using a FreshRoast 800 with 12” Razzo roasting chamber, Mastech MS6514 temp meter, two K type thermocouples, and Artisan software. I have struggled to achieve ANY consistency, but until I started hearing you talk about the 3 stages and percentage of time in each phase, and especially RoR, nothing I have read to date had sunk in. Now things are starting to make sense. I can’t wait to head back to the drawing board and start from scratch with the information you have provided. Thank you!! 🙏🏼
I'm looking forward to hearing your experiences Rayzer. Thanks for sharing and for watching my videos!
Thanks a million for this great and simple speaking language of roasting coffee. I’ve definitely learned a lot. If it was in my hand I would but this video on top of all roasting videos on you tube.
Just a quick question. Could you please suggest a rate of time and temperature to roast coffee for different methods? ( ex. 180c for 5min after dry period)
Thanks again 👍🏼
Thanks for your kind and encouraging comments Wael. Temperatures are not really helpful to discuss because they will be different from your roaster to mine. A good way to talk about this is focusing on coffee roasting events and time. When I roast coffee I categorize my time by roast phase.
Dry Phase (beginning of roast until coffee turns yellow)
Browning Phase (Yellow to first crack)
Development Phase (first crack to drop)
I set my roast temperatures so my coffee will reach the target phase event within a speific amount of time. For example, I want my coffee to turn yellow in Four minutes and thirty seconds after i start my roast. In order to do that I need my temperature to be X. After my green beans turn yellow I want to hit first crack within 3 minutes so i adjust my heat so the first crack event begins then.
Depending on my roasting device, the type of coffee i am roasting, how much coffee, the roast style and much more, I will have to make adjustments to my temperatures to accomplish my phase time goals. If you watch my video "3 Tips For New Home Coffee Roasters" I talk about the phase concept. I hope my answer was helpful.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Wonderful, thanks for your clarification. I was just worried to roast for long time that would make your beans taste like roasted bread. So do you think if the total roasting time is thirty minutes it’s too long?
Yes, 30 minutes is a long time. What type of roasting machine are you using? What roast level are you considering? The total roast times I stay within vary from 7 minutes to 12 minutes. Some people roast a little longer. Some roasting machines can't roast that fast and take 20 minutes. I'm sharing the roasting times I use and others may have a different opinion BUT 30 minutes is a long time.
Very good explanation.One the best explanations I’ve heard so far
Glad it was helpful!
Hi Mike, great video again, going to the end of first crack going to far for my roast?
Shane, that is personal preference. You like a medium roast coffee? Usually with the behmor the roast takes 12-14 minutes. So you probably won't have real fruity acidic coffee (assuming the coffee potentially has those note). So it comes down to bitterness and flavor. The further you go into the roast, the more bitterness will begin to appear and the less bean characteristics will be noticed. What kind of a roast do you usually like?
Remember, the Behmor doesn't cool quickly so if you end your roast at say 1:30 past first crack, you can add an extra minute of roasting into the total roast time. That coffee won't cool that quickly if left in the roaster. If you are going all the way to the end of first crack, completely, and then hitting the cool button, your probably roasting 2 minutes past first crack plus the cool down time so almost 3 minutes.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Hi Mike, thanks for the reply and that advice you gave me.
Fantastic video Mike 👏👏
Glad you it was helpful Mario!
Thank you again for another informative video! I roast 1/2 lb. coffee every 6 days and just wish I could roast more often to learn more! I'm using a Hottop that I just converted to -2K+ and now I can see what is happening during the roast and I also have a record of each roast so I can study and plan the next roast. I do turn the heat down at dry end, but maybe I also need to increase the fan speed higher to help drop the temp even more. The middle phase of my last roast was 3:00 minutes, which was 25% of the total roast time. I haven't tried that coffee yet, but maybe in the morning I'll brew it. That was Guatemala Antigua Pulcal Inteligente from Sweet Maria's. The average ROR during the middle phase was 21°F, dropping to 12.4°F in the third phase.
Hi Adrian, thanks for your comments. I'm interested to hear how your coffee tastes. Not sure but you might want to stretch out the middle phase a little longer if you think your cup tastes a little tart. Depending on the coffee I found that 30-35 percent is a sweet spot. If you like acidic coffee then shorter development times are good. 12% is a little short but it all comes down to what you are tasting in the cup. I'm glad you are noticing and paying attention to these phases and am excited to hear if you have successes with your hottop!
As for the fan, if you have your fan set for just a little draw to move out the smoke and add a little convection to your roast that is a great start. I wouldn't mess with it yet. Once you get your charge temps and phase percentages figured out, then you can try bumping up your fan. In my video with Rob Hoos, he said he has his turned up for most of the roast and doesn't touch it BUT his roaster can perform so he isn't just sucking out all of his energy and then crashing his roast. One step at a time, one change at a time. That tip helped me keep my sanity when I started roasting.
@Adrian I am exactly in the same situation as you in that my roasted batch will take 6 or more days to consume, and I wish I could roast more often than that. There are so many things I'd like to try. Maybe I'll have to start just giving coffee away!
@@VirtualCoffeeLab The Guatemala coffee is good, but I'm still lacking the ability to describe coffee notes! Unfortunately that is only a 1 pound bag; it was one of the complementary 8 pounds of greens that came with the roaster. I have one roast left to make changes. I'm still so new at this with the Hottop that I'm spinning! I preheated the roaster to 250°; maybe a higher temp will decrease the drying time? That's what I'll do next. ☕
@@luigicollins3954 Good idea!
Is that the roaster you use behind you? I am looking to buy a first roaster. Can you suggest one?
Hi Kirk. The roaster in the behind me is my Mill City 500 Gram drum roaster. I have highlighted several different roasters on my channel. One of the first questions to ask is batch size. How much coffee do you want to roast per batch? This will determine the type of roaster and budget. A new MC500 is selling for about 6,500 dollars currently. The Kaliedo M2 is a 400 gram drum roaster that sells for under 2,000 dollars. So, if you are looking to buy a first roaster, maybe start with an inexpensive option to begin and see if this is something you want to grow into. Maybe a Behmor, Fresh Roast, Popper, or even a Hive to start out?
Thank you for all notes mentioned in this video, but still for beginner like me, there's some darkness in picture such as the chart shows more than one graph, my request to your kind attention to explain these graphs or curves even hand written...to show timing of each stage..dryness of beans...darkness degrees..first Crack....etc.
Thank you in advance...
Thank you for your comments and suggestions. I plan on doing some beginner videos in the near future. They will introduce basic roasting concepts. This should bring shed more light on the roasting process
Thank you for watching my video.
Super helpful video to someone like me who's new to roasting and now have a better understanding about R.O.R. and on how to apply fire throughout and plan my the roast ahead 🙌
On the sidenote can I ask how did you modify the artisan software to see the burner Kpa degree to show on the graph? Thanks mike's looking forward to more of your videos
Glad you like the video @Janot Enriquez. The exhaust temperature "ET" is the red line you will see that runs across the artisan graph. I have a probe that is reading the exhaust temperature as well a one that reads the bean temperature "BT". It is interesting you ask about that. I use my ET as a reference for how much Horsepower/energy I am applying in my roast. As the roast progresses, I can lower my energy setting around first crack and the ET will remain in place because the beans have gone exothermic.... they actually begin to start giving off heat. Pretty interesting to watch. I hope I answered your question. Thanks for your encouraging comments.
Great video. My question is: will the notes on the bag always be what you achieve, or can other flavours and aromas develop from the same bean if the profile changes?
Hi Jim, thanks for your question. I can say 100% absolutely that the notes on the bag will not always match what you will roast for several reasons.
The roast
Profile may not be the same. How they roasted the coffee and how you did are likely different. Many times the seller will identify a “roast level” that produces those notes but that is a general statement of color of the bean….. the type of roast.
Modulating the roast profile - Rob Hoos, consultant, master roaster, educator of coffee roasting was on my channel last year. He wrote a book called “modulating the flavor profile of coffee” where he demonstrates how the very same coffee can produce different notes based on roast level and phase percentages within the roast. That is why I talk a sour the length of time devoted towards each of the phases in my videos.
Intentional roast styles - we all roast our coffee based on how we like it. Medium roast, city roast, whatever you want to call it as far as roast level, but many of us don’t think about the impact of a short browning phase and how that will affect the flavor.
I did a video with the ikawa pro where I did just as Rob Hoos was doing. I modulated the flavor profile of the coffee by changing the brown phase percentage and the total roast time. You can see that video here ruclips.net/video/puAdHc2MpXo/видео.html. The best thing you can do to learn more about roasting is to experiment and taste the changes. Take notes log your roasts and compare. Most important is to use the same coffee when doing this so you can taste the changes. After you have done this and you move on to the next coffee, you can intentionally roast a profile that you think will get you close and then make small changes and taste the difference.
Mold influence
Very thorough and informative videos! Best so far during my home roasting learnings. Hope new roasters flock to your videos soon!
Thanks for the encouragement @Hushed Ambience. I'm glad you found my videos helpull! Fee free to share my channel!
Great video. Something you said you’d cover but I don’t think I picked up on was how to experiment to get different flavors. Would there be some kind of experimental framework to follow? For me with my roaster (Nucleus Link) I have to plan out the curve ahead of time then run the curve vs say a Freshroast where the heat and time are all manual. What would I do to the curve to get a sweeter cup? I know, hard to answer.
That’s a great question. I am starting my “profile” series tomorrow. It is an intro video but future “profile” videos will have several roasters including the LINK I think.
Now to answer your question. The link is special in that it can repeat the same profile over and over. It can also roast based on brewing style. I would recommend measuring the same dose (weight) and profile but alter the settings for brew type. Be sure to save the profiles. Now, open and look at the event times, temps, and total roast times for each of the roasts and notice how they are different. Now, brew each of the roasts using the same brew method and taste the difference and make notes.
After that experiment, draw some conclusions about the end temperature or the length of the middle phase, or the total roast time.
One thing to note a part the link profiles….. many are designed for sample roasting. They tend to be lighter roasts with shorter development times. I’m assuming that is why you are asking your question about sweetness.
If you want an easier place to start, and assuming the development phase is short (like 12%) try extending your 12% development to 18% with a 3 degree higher drop temp.
@@VirtualCoffeeLabI’m looking forward to the series. With the link for each profile you can set the development time to be whatever you want, to a point. Beyond that point you actually have to edit the profile slightly. The folks at Link pointed me to a video to do that. And you are right of course, designed for samples and geared toward lighter roasts. It has I think 4 cupping profile packs, each with dozens and dozens of profiles, 3 filter packs each with many many profiles, an OMNI pack that’s designed to roast both filer and espresso (you have to change the developing of course) and these are considered to be ready to drink roasts, and an Espresso pack with numerous profiles. I’ve done about 30 roasts so far. I do a 50g first to make sure I have the right profile based on first crack time before doing a 100g batch. I find the light roasts tasting slightly underdeveloped but I am not used to light roasts. Although I’ve been drinking coffee for 50 years I’ve never been so engrossed in it as I am now.
I think the middle phase is lengthened or shortened a little based on the brew method. Yes, extending the development time and increasing the temps just 2-3 degrees should be a change you can taste. .
Very informative!
Thanks for watching Afranio. What are you using to roast coffee?
@@VirtualCoffeeLab I started an small Roastery one year ago. I use a Bideli 3,5kg 👌🏻
Thank you so much for these really valuable information. I’m an amateur roaster and in 8 minutes (plus 1 min ending around 9 mins for development phase) I usually get lucky ending up with V60 light-medium to medium roast with wonderful acidity sweetness balance if I get the heat right at about 210C (I finish the same as my charge temp 210C) on my Aillio V2. Though I am very confused and hope you can please help. Which phase (Drying, Browning, Development) should I drag the time and ROR on if I’m shooting for a medium - medium dark Ethiopia batch for making espresso. I myself found loving the medium roast to be fine for my taste but my family members tend to love the darker less acidity flavors. Thank you so much in advance 🙏🏻
NB , thanks for watching my video. You can lower acidity by lengthening the development phase. When you hit first crack slow down your roast by backing off the heat a little. Instead of spending 1 min in development, spend an additional 15-30 seconds in development... so 1:30 for development
Honestly without seeing your current profile I'm taking a stab and making the suggestion I did. Generally speaking longer development will knock down acidity.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Finally I am out of the dark. Its been miserable the past months … I will give it a try this weekend and will come update you. Many thanks again! Have a wonderful weekend 😊
Dear @virtualcoffeelab ! Thanks a lot for super videos!! I had a pro roastery roast my coffee. I have wanted to make a light/medium/dark roast of the same kind of bean. The way they do it, is to follow the same profile each time, but then just drop the beans at different times. For example for light we droppes at 196 degrees c. Medium 202c and dark 205c. The light roast is wayyy to acidic. Would you suggest to either take it up to 199c to tone it down? Or should we maybe extend the time for the development phase and stay around 196-198? I feel like the roastery is just making easy money because they dont change their profile for the different roasts, but I am NO expert! 😅 I wont tell them that a guy from RUclips told me any different, but could you please enlighten me on this subject? Thanks a lot Mike ☕️👍🏾 Kind regards Morten
Hi Morten, I’m no expert either. In my experience, I have heard people do just what you described. Interestingly enough, I’ve use this technique but another technique is to drop your ror at a higher rate just before moving into first crack. I’ve been using this technique for the PNG coffee we are roasting for this big project. In a future video you will see what I’m talking about but for now, let’s say we have a 10 minute roast and your target first crack time is eight 1/2 minutes. At about 7 1/2 minutes you back off the power to lower your ror at a higher rate so you are between 9-11 ror on a downward trend when you hit first crack. Crack starts a slow roll and you now adjust your ror to be more shallow, slowly drifting down to about 5 ror at drop. This steeper descent technique will give you a slower temp increase, with more time in development if needed. I think, depending on the coffee, you might have fun and even surprise yourself tasting the different fruit notes as you fiddle with the different development times while keeping your drop temps down.
I’m more in the 202-205 range which throws me into the medium/light category. I’ve never roasted as light as 196 on my drum roaster but we could be closer than we realize. Likely our temps are slightly different because of probes or other reasons. Just for reference, I don’t usually hit first crack till about then. So, are you thinking of dropping right when crack starts? What type of roaster is it?
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Thanks a lot Mike! You can make a book after all this. Really looking forward to your coming project. I will explore many different roasts with this bean :)
We are in a similar project, making a small brand from this bean. We have a good relationship with friends in Indonesia, that's why it all started.
So, I have taken note of what you just said. The thing that puzzles me is the high level of acidity. So my question is:
Does the sweetness develop along side the acidity?
And if so, the solution is to prolong the development phase, with a very small ROR?
Or even also prolong the browning phase, because in that, lies a mystery of sweetness maybe :D
The roaster is a Giesen for 10 kg badges. I dropped the beans just after 1st crack, my mistake. I should probably have waited until at least 199 degrees and a prolonged development.
Best regards, Morten
Morten, drop temperature will be a big factor in your acidity level. The longer your development time is, the lower your acidity will be. As far as sweeetness compared to acidity, they are all part of the same reactions taking place. The proteins and carbohydrates react each with its own set of complex flavors that are developed. The amount of time roasting in the browning/middle phase and the development phase influence both acidity and sweetness. So, there is a max sweetness you will achieve as you move into the development phase and then the temp reaches a point and the complex reactions move away from sweetness towards bitterness. When we talk about carmelization for sweetness it is agreed that once second crack hits the origin flavors are all but gone and you are into the bitter side of the roast.
This has been my experience and it is not a perfect science. As you are doing, I would experiment with differnt total roast times, and phase times and make notes, paying attention to how the flavor profile changes. I would also suggest you purchase Rob Hoos' great booklet on "modulating the flavor profile of coffee". He shares very clearly what changes he makes during a roast and how that influenced the flavors. Very very interesting and helpful book. Hope I helped answer your question.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab You sir, are awesome. So maximum sweetness tops around the browning phase close to 1st crack or more in the “development phase”...?
I think it might be better said that maximum sweetness will vary from coffee to coffee and take place during the development phase after first crack and before second crack. That is a wide range of time and experimenting will help you find the "sweet spot".
Hi, Beginner roaster here. I own a Behmore 1600 Plus and a Freshroast SR800 I picked up second-hand. Trying to roast Monsooned Malabar for espresso and trying to achieve a light-medium roast with smooth (no acidity) and sweet roast profile. Saw your Malabar video but it's a tad complicated trying to transfer your high-end roaster info to these beginner roasters I am trying to use. Do you have a formula or a roast profile for 1/4 or 1/2 lb batches you could recommend for this monsooned malabar bean on these two machines? Thanks as always!
Hi Andraio, I don't have a formula. In general, lower acidity can be achieved by longer development along with the lighter roast which means lower drop tem. If you watch my video on roasting the Papua New Guinea coffee you will notice I have a low ROR throughout the development phase which allows more time in development but the temperature increase is slow, preventing the coffee from roasting dark. So, that should give you some ideas for roasting lighter and lower acidity. Also, a longer overall roast time will help towards lower acidity. So, low and slow is the theme. The risk is a flat boring coffee. Not sure that is possible with the Monsooned Malabar but just saying.......
I have a popcorn popper as my roaster and cannot control the temperature and the roasting came very fast. My first batch was not very drinkable. I'm not sure when I should turn the popper off. I don't know whether its the grind (medium-fine) or the extent of the roasting time or both. I sure could use some direction/correction. By the way, I do enjoy these videos as they are about the best I have seen in terms of explaining. I am definitely a newbie but want to do the home roasting. Thanks
Hi Tom, thanks for your comment and for watching my videos. Yea, you hit the mail on the head. While a hot air popper is a popular, low cost option to roast coffee, it lacks the ability to control temperature over time. There are various methods to lower the temp including an extension cord, taking off the lid. And even introducing a little cool air into the roasting chamber. Ultimately, controlling the temps with any real accuracy is challenging.
The Popper by sweet Maria’s is a larger version of a popcorn popper with both temperature and air control. 90 bucks……. There are other options if you are interested.
Knowing when to end the roast depends on your roasting style. What type of coffee are you roasting? What types of flavor notes do you like? If it is a specialty grade coffee, what are the tasting notes on the bag?
What is the advantage or disadvantage of the "soak" after charge? Some use it, many do not. Is it related to a specific bean variety or density? What is the impact to the TP and drying phase?
Great question Joe. For drum roasting, there are several sources of heat which roast the coffee including:
Flame/Heating Element Source
Hot Air
Hot Metal Parts (drum, chasis, Steel Body)
The roaster is a giant heat sink and that is why we do the pre-warming, so we aren't trying to warm our roaster up while we are roasting.
Now to the "soak" . Exhaust Temperature (the temperature of the hot air as it is leaving the roaster) as mentioned helps us roast the beans (convection). When I am ready to charge my roaster, I don't idle my roaster at the charge temp. I catch it on the upswing. What I mean is I let the roaster cool down just a little and then kick on the flame to heat up the air. That process only takes about a minute or two and that is why you see my ET around 415-425 while my BT is down at 180-185 for many of my roasts. That 35-45 degree difference in temps allows me to keep my roaster flame off, allow the beans to roast but not have a direct flame on the drum. I'm thinking roasting defects.
Also, the soak allows me to watch my ET temp and when I get to 375 on the ET I turn on the gas and begin to ramp my way up to the Dry End event. The 375 ET and the TP time and temp are "waypoints" for me to know if I am on track with my roast progress. Then during dry I manage my heat (if necessary) to achieve my exact dry time within a 10-15 second window. I do change these settings based on the type of coffee, Charge weight and roast profile.
So the advantage of a soak is it gives me more control to time my initial charge temp and goals and in theory reduces the potential of roasting defects. I have no science behind the roasting defect statement, only my experiences. The soak is especially important with lower density beans BUT I use it for most roasts because of the control thing.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab I sort of understand your goals with the soak. There are two types of heat energy exchanges in the roasting process. Conductive (slow by contact) and convective (efficient). From what I understood, the initial temp or charge temp reflected the mass heat energy of the metal drum, etc. and when charge occurs, then bean mass (lower temp) crashes around making contact with the drum and other beans conducting the heat. When TP is reached, that is the indication that the beans relative temp is equal to the internal mass temp, having absorbed by contact conduction. If too much energy is in the roaster at charge, the beans especially dense ones get their surface heated too rapidly (tipping, scorching). So I assumed the "soak" removed the constant heating to allow beans to equilibrate before pushing more energy into the system. Sorry, scientist here, I try to charge at 210 - 230 then maintain the ET around the same by end. I've heard you should never let the TP drop too low and not to push convective heat in the beginning. I usually start air flow at minimum with gas on relatively high. As dry phase continues, watching RoR, I adjust gas downward and then airflow upward to keep ET near start. Just wondering if I can load dense beans at 230, drop gas, "soak absorb" for about 1 minute then kicking back on the high gas about 60 - 70%. From your explanation it sounds like you are doing something similar to get better control while monitoring the probes. (I use grams, g/L, Celsius and kPa sometimes bar.) Just about to start a batch of Haitian Marre Blanc @664 g/L which puts the density in medium range. Maybe a 45 sec. soak after charge of 210 might show some advantage.
Joe, a couple of clarifications to make sure we are on the same page.
1. if too much energy in the roaster, then LOW DENSITY beans can get roasting defects.
2. You are chargeing with ET and BT are the same temp. My ET is usually 35-40 F degrees higher than my BT at charge. This allows me to have gas off for first 30 seconds to 1 minute.
3. Soak is flexible based on ET, TP time and temps as well as the batch size.
Another great video, Mike. I now see that I was receiving some misinformation regarding the Browning Phase. From some of the first things I recall reading, the Browning Phase was simply where the beans got more and more brown as they went through it. I never, until now, realized that a lot of chemical action was taking place. Why? Because what I also learned was where the Development Phase was terminated defined whether the coffee was lighter, more acidic and and more fruity or heavier, less acidic, and more chocolatey. Although those statements are indeed true, I didn't realize that the origination of acids and sugars actually occurred during the Browning Phase. It's not crazy to think the way I did in light of the Phase names: Browning and Development. Maybe Browning should have been called the Acid, and Sugar Phase and Development should have been called the Balancing Phase or something like that. Yes, in the Browning Phase the beans do get brown. But I don't think anyone can taste the color brown. We can taste acids and sugars. Now I'm thinking that most likely there are more chemicals than just acids and sugars that are beginning in that Maillard Phase, maybe?
Hi Lou, I'm glad it was helpful We are all in the learning mode when it comes to roasting coffee. I scratched the surface of the science behind coffee roasting and flavor development. There is a lot more going on than I will ever be able to understand when it comes to flavor development BUT I can experiment and continue to learn as I roast. The names of the phases are confusing at times based on what is happening BUT I think some of that is due to the fact that experts are still learning about what happens to coffee being roasted. As far as the composition of a green coffee bean goes, there is more in there I didn't cover. I was trying to stay focused and offer enough info for us to think about and experiment with without having to put on a white lab coat... haha. Take a look at this link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffee_bean#Composition
Thanks for your good content video. What I don't understand about sample roasters like Ikawa and Roest. Why that roaster only need 7 - 8 minutes to roast coffee?
Hello Jinn, those roasters both use hot air right? That could be one reason. My drum roaster can roast short roasts also but my usual roasts range from 8-12 minutes depending on the coffee.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Oh! I see. Means air roast is faster than drum roast. Thanks for your info.
Hi Mike, Have you ever dropped a roast short of FC fully ending with a drum roaster like a Kaleido or any drum roaster to yield a lighter roast and still have the bean roasted all the way through? I’m still trying to obtain a lighter roast on an Ethiopian. Thanks!
Hi Jeff, yes I have dropped while crack is still going. I have an artisan profile for the M2 roasting an Ethiopian natural that gives a pretty nice result. You could lower your ror a little more to keep the temp down a couple degrees to make it even lighter. You can download it free at www.buymeacoffee.com/VirtualCoffeeLab/extras
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Thanks Mike. Hey my M6 dual came with a profile suggestion if you noticed ? for roasting with the Kaleido tablet which I used on an Ethiopian Kochere Washed Org. Perfect sweetness and flavor. Dropped at 190.2c Dev 15.4% 400g Charge.
Hey Jeff..... Congrats again on the roaster. What was the profile suggestion? Was it already loaded in the tablet? What is the name of the profile?
@@VirtualCoffeeLab No it wasn’t loaded, it was in a Tablet manual. So far it’s my best roast. I also applied it yesterday to a Guatemalan that is resting but smells very sweet. Drum is at 80.
Here are the details: 1) Preheat to 170-180c 2) Charge Beans - Burner 40 Air 40 3) @TP - Burner 80 Air 40 4) @Dry End - Burner 60 Air 40 5) @FC Start - Burner 20 Air 80 6) @FC End - Burner 0 Air 0. (I think I had the Air at 60 at FC for my roast depends on your desired ROR). Try it! Omg so good! This was of course on the M6 with 400g. But don’t expect the tablet Manual to be different for the M2? Check with Barrett on that.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Unable to Download?
i know this is years later ;) but i started roasting on a Nuvo eco and i am thinking my brown phase is way to fast, i get 1st crack 3 minutes in and 2nd 4-5 minutes, should i maybe remove from direct heat and keep moving the roaster around?
Thanks for watching. The Nuvo Eco gets really hot and the roast can easily move too fast. In your case it appears you should lower heat overall. Practice finding a heat setting where your beans turn yellow in about 4 minutes and then first crack at 7 min and 30 seconds and then for medium roast end the roast around 9 minutes or longer if you want to go darker.
Always keep the beans moving around or they will burn/scorch. Moving them also produces airflow which helps the roasting process.
Let me know how that works out
On my last roast with the extension chamber i heard a loud pop. When i emptied out the coffee beans i noticed a white smudge spot on the lower roasting pot. It looks like a thumb print. Unable to feel it or clean ot off. Any thoughts?
Michael, are you referring to the Fresh Roast? If so, it could be some sort of electrical burn? Is your roaster operating properly now? I would contact the manufacture and ask their advice.
This man knows what hes talking about
Still lots to learn Steve. How is your roasting going. Anything new?
For the development phase, does increasing bean drop temperature increase the body other than prolonging the development phase?
That’s a great question. Full transparency here, I’m not positive but I think I know.
I’ll try and give an answer. If anyone wants to correct me or add to what I say, I would appreciate it. Here are my thoughts:
As heat is applied over time to the coffee bean, the coffee yellows, reactions within the beans compounds take place. Reactions begin to form flavors. Those reactions continue to react, creating new reactions. So, in order for these reactions to take place, the coffee temperatures continue to increase as the coffee heads towards first crack and into development. Body is created by reactions of specific compounds that take place during this roasting process. The question is;”does body increase because temperature increases or the length of time the reactions are permitted to occur ?” I would say “both”. But, I think that too much time or too much temperature increase may decrease body as the compounds breakdown and carbonize.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Thank you and I appreciate your reply. I wouldve given my insight if I have roasted a lot. Ive noticed recently when i tried changing the bean drop temperature with other similar settings from roasting the same beans with similar settings, i find that this increases the body. Will need to roast more to confirm. Thanks again and you have been my inspiration when roasting. Have been getting really great results following your advices and videos! Looking forward to more videos!
What is your recommended time or percentage of roast to spend in the yellowing-1C phase?
Hi Drew. Thanks for watching my video. What are you using to roast your coffee?
I wish I could give you a time but It depends on the type of coffee, your desired roast level, and batch size. Let me know and I can share some suggestions.
Are you currently roasting coffee?
I really wish you went over each phase of roasting, in order, and explained what was happening in each phase. This seems all over the place and its really hard for me to take notes.
It would also be useful to offer some general percentages and total roast times for a couple bean densities if they're different, so we have a place to start from.
This video is the algebra and I need some calculus so I can put it to better use.
Hi David, thank you for your message. I have a video that explains exactly what you are asking. #3 Tips for new home coffee roasters ruclips.net/video/vWdvkiK10R0/видео.html includes each of the phases (in order) and what is happening in each phase. I also mention percentages and times as examples. These details differ based on your type of roaster, the coffee you are roasting and they style of coffee you like.
Very nice can tell you're an expert ;P
@Mrjcharles, thanks for watching my videos. No expert, just sharing what I have learned so far. I'm learning just like everyone else. Thank you for your comment.
Having a real difficult time roasting dry process in my Behmor 2000ab. When i purchase 30lb of beans not realizing how they would perform in my machine thought they would roast up like my wet process. Boy was i wrong... i need help drastically before i ruin any more beans
Hi Mirinda. It is easy for people who roast on a Behmor to push P1, wait for first crack and then decide when to hit the cool button. How are you currently roasting on the Behmor? What is happening with the new dried process coffee?
If I had to guess what you are experiencing, the dry process coffee roasts faster right? I have noticed the Dry Process coffee requires a little less heat in the beginning of the roast compared to the washed coffees. First crack happens faster and the coffee seems to get dark quicker.
Please explain what is happening where you are "ruining" beans? How are you using the behmor (manual or automatic roast profiles?) how long does your roast last? How long did it take to get to dry end? How long did it take to get to first crack?
Thanks!
Thanks for watching!
Bubby g - Thank you very much for the "Thanks!" tip. I really appreciate you making that donation. THANK YOU.
Hi, Mike! I never ever ever comment on social media, youtube, etc. BUT i have been enjoying AND learning from your videos for a few months now and i just realized that i could chip in with $ i don't even know if this comment im writing is public OR just for your eyes???? But THANK YOU and keep helping me to learn about roasting :)
Thr key 4even brown is i think grind coffee at first crack. Then roast granules much more uniformely.
Sergio, I’ve not heard that before. Are your roast color not consistent? What roaster are you using?
@@VirtualCoffeeLab
Well thcolor is not what tells me it is inconsistent. Thgrind does.
Unroasted center of beans are rubbery & wont grind fine. In contrast optimally roasted bean is also brittle. And grinds fine.
I use cast iron bcuz my previous theory is combination roast = wider spectrum flavors.
But your video suggest uniform sweet spot. And in this vein, its only common sense. A big fat bean is notoriously thdevil itself 2roast evenly. So, why not roast till yellow, being brittle enough to blend somewhat and chop up bean ( i use commercial blender to grind) in2 granules. Then, roast granules 2easily get nice uniform target result.
Also 2get best flavor i dont heat coffee. I soak it overnight then I warm it & strain, pour more water & heat 3times 2extract ALL flavor.
I grind 2 powder bcuz granules trap enormous amounts coffee flavor.
Industry teaches u throw MASSIVE amount good coffee away.
And use expensive paper. I use NO PAPER i use fine metal screen.
All these tricks means I use only 10grams coffee per 2quarts RAIN water. Never EVER use anything but Yahwehs distilled rainwater. Starbucks secret is they DISTILL water.
There is coffee powder bottom cup i just mix it periodically.
Coffee business is profoundly corrupt in that they teach u 2throw MASSIVE amounts of good unused coffee away.
Lastly I add FIVE sweetners.
I combine sugar, stevia honey & backstrap mollasses in just right amounts 2profoundly widen spectrum of sweetness with depth.
I add my homemade vanilla. U MUST use 2 strains at least. Start with 8 oz each Madagaskar & Ugands vanilla to 1 gallon cheap vodka. 1lb vanilla per gallon.
I add half tspn this super special per 2quart coffee. People have said its 10 times better then what vanilla they make.
I have entire recipe in detail if u want it. Which I honed &refined spanning 10 years.
Good content as always, Mike. I've been working on trying to stretch out the middle phase of my last few roasts and feel like I'm making progress, though I did have one batch that more or less stalled out and led to a weak, sputtery first crack; but flavor-wise, it turned out better than I expected. The roasts I've done since then have been a significant improvement compared to when I just keep heat on full blast until first crack set in. It's difficult to rein in the heat on a Behmor, but I'm getting a better handle on when to cut back to stretch out browning while still having enough momentum for a distinct first crack. Thanks again for your work!
Glad you are having successes Dustin. Yea, the behmor is like a heavy train. It takes a while to get up to speed and then by the time you realize you need to slow it, it can't be stopped ;-) So, becoming comfortable with your roaster you can anticipate when you should start to back off the energy. Nice work. I can't tell you how many times I have roasted and thought i totally screwed up but the coffee ended up tasting pretty good. Thanks for your kind comments.
Get a kaldi 600 or huky 500
I tried my first two roasts today.
1. 425 convection oven
-didn't turn out well. Dry end was around 8-9 min, and first crack was at 25min. I was listening for it and didn't hear, or I missed it.
-either way, it was a bit dark but not super dark. It had a noticeable burnt/bitter taste and had a muted smell.
-the coffee tasted burnt.
2. 450 convection oven
Dry end around 7:10, First crack 11:30 and I dropped it at 13.
-much better. color ended up being brown.
-the smell was more flavorful but still not as strong as I hoped.
-the coffee tasted good, had decent flavor with acidity but I can feel there is more flavor that can be gotten.
-I'm thinking I may start higher temp to get to dry end a bit quicker (start at 460 degree), then drop to 440 during the middle phase (while keeping the oven door open for about 10 seconds to help cool), I am trying to get the middle phase to be about 4 min or so...
Question 1: If I drop the temp after dry end, will it delay my first crack time by a lot? (b/c in my first roast, due to the low temp, first crack didn't come for a long time.
Question 2: how do I finish that last 2 minutes after first crack? Should I keep it at the lower temp or raise/lower the temp?
-what happens if I keep the temp the same/lower or higher?
Sounds like you are learning as you roast Paul. That is exciting and you are able to see, hear and taste a difference in your roast just by changing your heat and time. You are on the right track. I would agree to go ahead and try the higher temp. You will want to lower your temps so you don't fly through the roast too fast.
You want to control your temperatures so you can slow down the roast momentum and coordinate your first crack time. You will have to figure out what temp is necessary to accomplish this. So, if you want a 4 minute middle phase, figure out what temp will get you there. If you find it is too short, then you may have to lower your temps earlier, before dry end. The oven will still stay hot but you are slowing the roast down so you have a 4 minute browning phase. Does that makes sense? You need to do the same thing with the development phase.
So how do you know what is the right time? It depends on your style of roasting. If you are looking for a nice balanced cup, consider 20% of your total roast time being spent in the development phase. A 10 minute total roast time will mean 2 minutes will be spent in the development phase.
Also, the color of the bean. How far into the roast do you want to take the bean? 2nd crack? Dark coffee? Bean color and your oven temp will help you begin to understand what happens the further you go past first crack. Your taste buds will also tell you.
How do you finish the last 2 minutes of your roast? How do you know what temp to hold at? Pay attention to first crack. If it is weak, slow and seems to crack over a minute then consider coming into first crack a couple of degrees higher temp. If your crack is fast, over a short period of time 20 seconds or less then you are hitting first crack with too much heat (too much momentum) and your development time of 2 minutes will take your coffee darker than you want. Finding the right momentum for your first crack will help you get a nice development. I would say leave your temp the same at first crack or lower it a couple of degrees. Whatever it takes to get your 2 minutes without going too dark.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab I'm roasting 3/4 cup at a time so it's not a lot and I may end up throwing some of the roasts out. I'm just trying to find a good roast and am willing to sacrifice some beans in the process.
3rd roast: 460 degree start. Dry end around 5:15. I am still kind of guessing when I get to dry end. Also because the roast doesn't seem entirely even in the front end, where I'll see the edges get yellow/brown before the middle. -I switch to 440 at 5:15, leaving the oven door open for 25 seconds. First crack is around 10:50 and I drop at 12:53. It doesn't seemed to have cracked a lot and it was getting too dark so I ended it.
-The beans didn't cook all the way through. The 440 is too low. after cooking... After about 1 hr it still has a noticeable uncooked smell.
-I brewed it, and it tasted weak and bland.
-bad roast, the middle phase was too weak and didn't cook
4th roast: 460 degree start. Dry end around 6min (same as above, I'm still not confident on when I get into dry end).
-I switch to 450 at 6min.
First crack around 9:30 and cracks until about 12. one or two to start and around 11:30-12 it's cracking.
Drop at 13.
-smells much better than #3. It's cooked. The smell is ok but it's more subtle than my good #2 batch.
-color is good, I like it between brown and deep brown
-haven't brewed it yet.
5th roast: 450 degree start. Dry end at around 6:20 (my 2nd batch started at 450 and I got dry end at 7:10).
-460 degree at 7:10
First crack around 9 and cracked till about 11
-dropped temp back to 450 at 9:30 as it started to crack quickly and I got concerned.
dropped at 12
-smells good.
-darker than my #2/4, but the smell is similar to my good roast #2.
-haven't brewed it yet.
#1/3 were bad. 1 was burnt and 3 was not cooked.
#2 was my best so far, 450 throughout, 13 minute drop
#4 I think will be ok, more subtle smell than #2
#5 I think will be good. It smells like #2, still kind early to see how it'll end up. #5, i got to first crack quickest and had the longest finish, so it's noticably darker than #2, but not dark.
So, all in all, I think for now, I'm going to roast at 450 with a slight increase during the browning and finish around about 2 min after first crack.
@@paullee1521 great information. Way to stick at it and keep trying. Did you notice that roast 2 had a longer dry than roast 5 even though the temps were the same. This could be because the beans were spread out differently OR your oven was pre-heated better? What do you think?
I mentioned to slow the roast down a little after dry end and then watch carefully as you start first crack. You had a lot of momentum on the 5th roast. When it cracks fast you have too much momentum if you are roasting for a medium type roast. You will want to lower your heat during the last phase BUT you may need to lower it earlier because the oven environment is slow to change temps and the beans already have absorbed the heat and are now starting to give off heat at first crack (exothermic reaction).
@@VirtualCoffeeLab So, I completed my first 2 lb bag of beans with the 7 roast above. I think I got overly concerned about burning so I pulled them all too early. Some way to early so they didn't complete the roast and some a bit early so it's a light medium roast, maybe one medium roast. But, the light medium/medium (I just combined them all in one bag) and the espresso and lattes tastes very good.
So, I just ordered a 5lb bag and will try a roast this week with my 450/460 settings and try to get comfortable with a good medium roast. A medium roast seems to be have the sweet savory taste that most people like. My church has an espresso machine and we drink a lot of coffee so I can go through about 1.5lbs a week. This way I can get a good number of roasts done without having to drink it all and we all get fresh roasted coffee every week. So, that is reason I am doing so many roasts.
I'm sticking to 1 cup per roast and doing multiple roasts b/c as you mentioned, the spread of the beans, I'm trying to keep that stable for the time being. I don't think I know how my roast is working well enough to add the change in quantity, yet.
Paul, not sure if I mentioned this but is it possible to use a some sort of coking barrier between the tray and the coffee to reduce scorching? Did we talk about this, i forgot. Some use a material between the hot metal and the beans to reduce the roasting defect. Glad it tastes good!
شكرا جزيلا
Hello Tloooooly, you are very welcome.
Do you have an idea of how far you can take a roast and retain some sweetness and light acidity while still getting that smokey bittersweet chocolate like taste? Right now, I get that by making blends of light, medium and dark roasted coffee. But the roasting bug is kind of starting to bite me and make me curious.
As an aside I do tend to like darker roasted coffee. Something in the full city plus to Vienna range. But I don't tend to like things labeled French, Italian or Espresso roast.
Hello Kit, thanks for watching and for being a subscriber to my channel. I can't give a specific time or temperature as a reference where sweetness and acidity go away during the roasting process. You would need to experiment based on your coffee. The varietal, moisture level, and profile will influence the result. Generally speaking, I think that once you pass 14% moisture loss you will start to lose the acidity and sweetness, maybe even sooner.
You are roasting in a frying pan so I'm not sure how to address the smoky note you desire other than to roast dark. If you were using a drum roaster I would suggest you keep your airflow low so the smoke lingers in the drum, adding a dirty smokey note. Blending sounds like your best option.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Hey, thanks that is actually quite helpful. I just got started with all of this, so I am not sure how direct the correlation of moisture vs total weight loss, but my average loss seems to be around 18% (total).
Idk about going as far as a drum roaster but I am considering an SR800. I was considering a popcorn popper but I know I like to experiment with things so I think the fresh roast will be worth the investment.
I will keep watching and experimenting. Thank you for the advice!
@@VirtualCoffeeLab I just thought I'd give a little update. My wife suggested that I get a popcorn popper because we had an amazon gift card laying around. I have tried a bunch of roast times based on sight, sound and smell over the past three weeks and I think I have things dialed in. I have learned that while I like dark roast sold commercially, I don't care for home roasted batches being dark. At least not in the popper. The coffee seems to be about one roast level past where you stop it, for me. Maybe less so visually but for sure taste wise.
Anway, I tried going to second crack. This starts at around 9:45 seconds on my popper. The resulting coffee looks good and smells good but tastes awful. Like eating charcoal. Long story short: I have decided that anything between 6-8 minutes make a drinkable coffee when using 100 grams (seems to give me the most even roast with my Brazil). Personally, I like 6:30-7:00. This seems to give me something that taste similar to a full city to full city + if I buy it from the store.
Other notes that I have made are as follows. It seems that stirring the coffee with a chop stick until it is light enough to adiate itself helps with an even roast. Also, degassing is an interesting topic. For me, for filter coffee, I like degassing to a minimum of 5 days, but a week is better. I have no idea if this is just my preference. If it is because I roasted in a popper. Or because of the type of coffee or the roast level I am using.
For reference I am using a pop air popper. It looks identical to a Nostalgia. I have no idea if it is or not though. I foresee a real home roaster in my future but idk what.
I am having a blast watching and learning from all of your videos. As always, thank you!
Thanks for the update Kit. I'm glad you are having success with the popcorn popper. Typically a brazil is a less dense bean than most other single origin beans. I think you will find your times change with more dense beans if you every give that a try. You might want to make notes of how things change when you roast different beans as it will prepare you for your next roaster in the future. Nice work!
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Thank you for the heads up. I have that jotted down in my notebook now!
As I understand it, in manipulating the temperature to stretch out the development time, there is the danger of a stalled roast. What is a stalled roast and why is it so bad? Also, is a stalled roast and a baked roast the same thing? Do you have a video where you explain these concepts?
Hi Chuck, I address these concepts regarding rate of rise (ROR) which answers some of your question. See 6:39 on this video.
As far as stalling the roast, what I mean is your ROR gets so low your temperatures don't increase anymore. Your ROR is zero and that means your temps are not increasing, which means you won't make it to first crack. That is a stalled roast. This impacts the coffee and your end result is under developed coffee.
Baking coffee is a kind of the opposite. Your ROR drops really fast and this impacts your flavor development. Those reactions that are taking place in the beans are impacted and the end result is a flat, boring coffee that has little characteristics as far as taste. Some say "woody", "paper" or "straw" flavors are what they experience.
There may be other opinions about this. I am still trying to understand these concepts better so if anyone else would like to correct me or add to what I am saying I would appreciate that.
I just started roasting again after an 8yr hiatus. I have an iRoast2 and have been working with temp programs to try and get the phases you discuss. I fell my coffee is getting to the dry yellow stage and then first crack too fast. Wonder if you might be able to suggest a tweak to my program based on my current program and notes.
July 27, 82F
340 for 4min
375 for 4min
400 for 3min
415 for 3min
425 for 1min
150g of SW New Classic Espresso blend.
Yellow at 3min
Tan at 4:30
1st Cracking at 6:30
2nd crack just start at 9:30 and stopped to cool.
I’m not even utilizing the two higher temps. Should I start at an even lower temp and more slowly step up to say 375 with a final stage at 400 for development?
Hi Mark, thanks for your comment and question. I don't have any direct experience with the iRoast2 so my comments will be based on my own experiences with my drum roaster, charge temperatures and total roast time. I also wanted to say that I personally don't roast to 2nd crack so my comments to follow are bias towards a medium to medium light roast. I'm saying that to maintain some context with the way I provide my answer.
Based on what you have shared, there are a few "Topics" we should hit. I will reference some of my videos because they will offer more details.
1. Charge Temperature - ruclips.net/video/kVUtjmGjCJA/видео.html&pp=sAQA
Yes, I would lower your charge temp for a couple of reasons. First, it will lengthen the dry phase, answering your question about the 375 temp. Second, using a lower charge temp will help you set the pace for the rest of your roast. There is a sweet spot for every roaster (a temp range for charge) usually within 10 degrees depending on the type of coffee.
2. Dry Phase Length - ruclips.net/video/0sDGXYvQBk0/видео.html&pp=sAQA
I think the dry phase is the most important phase in coffee roasting because it will make or break your roast. Too hot and your will have a fast dry phases usually mean shorter browning phase and too much momentum through the whole roast. To cold means a long dragged out roast that complicates the rest of the phases. You will be "dragging your coffee through the roast because of your lower temps. You watched my "browning phase" video about how to roast sweet and flavorful coffee. We wouldn't be able to do that if our charge temp and dry phase was out of wack.
3. "Final stage at 400 for development" - I don't know what 400 degrees would be on your roaster. I have talked with people who go to 2nd crack and they are at 425. My point in saying that is temps are difficult to discuss because our probes, machines, environmental conditions are different. It might be better to talk percentages of development, bean color, texture and smell. You and I have different preferences for the end roast development percentage and color and even events (2nd crack) so I'm not sure how to answer your question. I did a video on Development here ruclips.net/video/E1s5zto9L-M/видео.html&pp=sAQA and that might be helpful for you. Because you are going to 2nd crack you have to factors to watch, really the most important is momentum. You need enough momentum to push you to 2nd crack BUT you don't want to fly through the browning phase. So, consider making your slope more shallow when you hit first crack so you don't bleed off too much of your ROR, allowing you to keep moving through the phase to 2nd crack. You will notice your drop temp will vary based on how much momentum/speed your roast is progressing, especially near the end.
Let me know what you think about my comments. I hope they have been helpful.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Thank you for that detailed response. I'm aware that the temp set points are just targets. Also, second crack isn't my goal, it's just where I ended up when the color looked right. Likely a 325 charge temp for 4min followed by 350 and then 375 would do a better job of stretching the drying and browning phase.
I'm working my way through your videos, just found you three days ago. I might pick up some "cheap" green coffee off amazon just to play around with with no concern for how it comes out other than to learn.
I'm researching a new roaster and I think I've narrowed it down to the Behmor 2000AB, Gene Cafe and the Kandi Wide. Those seem to be the ones in the $400-$700 range. The next step up is to say a Hottop for $1200 but I don't see enough upgrade for the buck there.
Hi Mark,, I read your reply and there are several hottop users that subscribe to this channel and quite a few Behmor users. I interviewed a new Behmor guy (Lou) who was learning to roast on the Behmor and we talked about what he was doing, his roasting challenges and some of the limitations of the Behmor. Actually, look here in the comments and you will see @Luigi Collins comment on this video and he is the one this video with me - ruclips.net/video/ZR381-XK32Y/видео.html&pp=sAQA Lou just shared with me this week that he was able to get his first great tasting lighter roast with the Behmor.... he was pretty excited.
Thanks for your reply and for watching my videos.
When is first crack defined? One bean crack, 3 or more, 10, many many? Conversely when is End of 1C because there are stragglers?
Hi Joe. You might get different opinions on this topic. Some mark first crack at the very first crack. I mark first crack when I hear a succession of cracks. It doesn’t make much difference when, as long as you are consistent from roast to roast. Same thing with dry end .
End of first crack would be when the succession of cracks ends. There will always be stragglers an I don’t count them.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab To muddle the milestones, use green blends where different densities achieve different endpoints. I try to size grade (sort) my greens with sieves so the uniformity of the volumes and densities match but there are still many different individual beans that crack first and last. I've tried to rely on a Gaussian curve type sample for 1C but get fooled often while thinking the crescendo ended while early 2C starts up.
Ahh, now I better understand your original question. Because you are blending your crack even is broadened because you are roasting more than one coffee at a time (blend). I don't blend greens for roasting for that reason and I don't recommend this method to others. Milestone events can be difficult to mark on the roasting timeline. As you have said, densities, varieties and bean size are variables that will affect our ability to watch, smell and hear the changes to the beans while they are roasting. In my mind it is a free for all trying to track what is happening to my roast. I know there are others who do this and if it works for them that is great, but I recommend blending coffee after they are roasted.
Min 5:21
"There is no flavor, there are no spices, where are the chips"
Great add in there.
yea, that is one of my all time favorite movies. Thanks for watching my video Daniel. What are you roasting with?
@@VirtualCoffeeLab, get that roaster outta my face...!
🤣 One of my favorite movies also. Quote it all the time. Nacho fans are few, but strong.
I've just gotten into roasting, so I'm quite....well....green (pardon the pun).
I bought a wire rotisserie basket meant for BBQs. Modified it to be on a threaded rod shaft. Suspended over a propane open flame (beer brewing burner) and inside a metal shroud to contain the heat a bit. Driven by a cordless drill with a hose clamp on trigger to keep rotating speed slow and constant. You talk about some very specific and detailed topics in this video. I can appreciate the expertise, but I'm just a cave man trying to roast coffee out in my shop. Want pics? Just say the word. Got advice for a simpleton such as myself? Fire away.
Thanks for the video. I enjoyed it and learned a bit.
1. How do we determine the ROR? For example of drying phase, starting temp is 20C, and DE is 160C, total time is 20 mins, so the ROR is 140/20= 7C/min. Is this correct?if my calculation is correct, what is the recommended ROR for each stage ?
2. I normally use 160C (320F) as the DE point, is this guideline correct?
E equal MC2, here is my reply:
1. Rate of Rise can be calculated by using your current temp and subtracting the temp reading from the previous minute. That is your RoR for 1 minute. Calculate your RoR per minute. Is your dry time 20 minutes?
As far as ROR for each stage, the important, more helpful answer would be to think of it in terms of momentum during your roast. So, if you have too much momentum, too much heat being applied coming into the middle phase (browning) then you will move too fast through that phase and your flavors won't have time to react, form and develop. So, it won't be helpful for me to give you a RoR to go by.
I can say that on my roaster, for my environment and most of the coffee I am roasting, I can achieve a top ROR of 25 during dry and then I want to target my RoR to be around 12-14 when I reach first crack SO I can be in a comfortable momentum to have enough time in the 3rd phase. That means I have to work hard to get my RoR down during the middle phase not only for what I just said, but also to allow enough time in my middle phase for coffee flavor development.
2. DE (Dry End) isn't always the same temp but on most coffee will be close. I would always use my sight to determine when the coffee has completed green and you can call DE (yellow)
Virtual Coffee Lab - Home Coffee Roaste. Thanks for the explanation. During drying phase, my ROR is about as low as 17 toad high as about 22C/minute. And browning phase is between 12-15C/minute. The development phase in most cases between 2-2.5 minutes after first crack.
In terms of aroma, beans does smells some aroma, it more prominent after it is grind. The taste is very sweet, this seems to meet my expectation..
@@Presso99 Nice job! Yea, so as far as RoR goes, this is helpful to help us visually see our momentum in the roast so we can prevent too fast or too slow roast progression.
Rather than trying so hard to roast coffee to pinpoint the sought balance between fruity taste and caramel/chocolate taste, wouldn't it be easier from the practical point of view to roast two batches of coffee distinctly differently (dark roast and light roast) and then to combine these two roasts, in various proportions, to achieve the desired balance?
Hi Eugene, thanks for your comment and for watching. I understand why you are asking that question. As a matter of fact, it is common for people to blend two or more different coffees together. I have not seen two different roast levels of the same coffee blended though.
For me, roasting and drinking a single origin coffee is an experience. Depending on so many factors from the soil, weather, varietal, fermentation, processing, storage, import time and more, you and I have a wonderful opportunity to roast that special coffee to optimize the flavors we want. Because of my roasting plan, I roasted a wonderful Honduran coffee that was sweet, had a raspberry note, milk chocolate and caramel. It was not roasty, nor was it under roasted. These are personal preferences we get to choose when we roast.
I think it would be easier for me to roast a single roast like this one, rather than two different roasts to try and achieve the balance you are talking about. If I did the light and dark blend, I would have the dark notes in the coffee. The roasty notes would be in the cup.
By the way, we don’t talk about the brew method. After all of that hard work to get a great cup(farm to roast) we can still mess things up with our brewing. It’s pretty amazing what we go through for a great cup of coffee.
What do you think?🤔
What is the temperature lag time from the outside to the center of a coffee bean? How long does the entire bean take to respond to a change in temperature?
Hi Geofrey. Thanks for watching my video. Are you asking about heat penetrating to the center for a fully roasted coffee bean or are you talking about cooling? Please reply and include more details to the questions I have below. Then I might be able to offer an educated guess. There are lots of variables like bean density and size.
What are you using to roast coffee?
What temperature are you dropping your coffee?
How long is your total roast time?
How much coffee are you roasting at one time?
How are you cooling your coffee?
@@VirtualCoffeeLab I'm using an air corn popper. My question relates to evenly roasting each individual bean - since I don't have fine control over the input air temperature, I wonder if the outside is getting [over]done before the inside. With the power output of this machine and average ambient temperature at my house, going from yellow to second crack never takes more than four minutes. (The time from power-on to yellow is more variable.) Is this too fast for the inside of the coffee to achieve a well-developed roast?
OK Geofrey, your question makes more sense now. Yes, that is one of my concerns about off the shelf hot air popcorn poppers. They will brown the coffee and do it quickly. Using hot air to roast coffee and shorter roast times go hand in hand. I'm still trying to figure out a "percentage" of time the roast goes quicker but if I would have to guess, I would say 20-30%. So a 9 minute roast on my drum roaster might look more like 6 minutes on a hot air roaster. I still believe the concept of roast phases and managing a percentage of the total roast time in each phase applies to air roasting. Just an overall shorter period of time.
Now, having said that, a 4 minute roast is really fast. Most likely the outside is more roasted than the inside. I would bet on it. There are ways to slow your roast down but the real issue isn't just slowing it down, it is controlling the heat so you can slow down your roast in the middle phase and development phase. If you are interested in this, consider watching my video on the new Sweet Marias Popper and you can see how it works and how I am able to use the variable temperature control to control the amount of time in each of the roast phases ruclips.net/video/p472YkRZEfM/видео.html
One important exercise you can do is to break open a bean you have roasted and look at the color difference between the outer and inner bean. Most likely the outer bean will be darker. It may not be a clearly visible way, depending on how dark and or how fast your roast was.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab I'll see about cutting beans in half...maybe grind it down with sandpaper to get a nice cross-section. So far I've been working on air-pop technique and getting objectively enjoyable results but I expect I'm going to want an upgrade eventually. Thank you for your insight!
@@GeofreySanders sounds good. You can probably just snap them in half along the center line. That should give you a pretty quick idea of what's going on...
What about moisture loss? Does that play a roll in the roasting taste as well?
That is a great question April. I would like to hear your experiences with documenting moisture loss during roasting. Do you see differences based on the type of coffee you are roasting (assuming you are roasting the same coffee over and over)?
Lots of people talk about moisture loss and share their percentages and i think they are doing this to convey the amount of development that has occurred to the bean i think? Personally I used to monitoring my moisture loss percentages but stopped because I am roasting many different coffees that all have different roasting profiles. I could see it being helpful for production roasting though.
How are you using moisture loss with your coffee roasting processes?
As far as taste goes, wow, I have not looked at moisture loss as a reference for taste. I use smell, bean color, texture, phase percentages and drop temperature and total roast time to craft coffee taste. At one point (a few years ago) I read an amazing article a few years back about monitoring moisture loss during the roasting process:
www.roastmagazine.com/resources/Articles/2019/2019_Issue1_JanFeb/Roast_JanFeb19_a2_BakedBeans.pdf
Imagine having that type of information during your roast. That would be interesting!
@@VirtualCoffeeLab thank you so much for your response!
I am new to roasting and have heard people mention the higher the % of moisture loss, the darker the roast.
I myself haven't really noticed that, but then was thinking maybe I'm possibly roasting wrong.
I've only been roasting the same coffee, since I just started and am still learning.
Your videos are extremely helpful and I truly appreciate you taking the time to write back.
Now I understand why you are asking that question April. What are you using to roast with? There are several things you should be thinking about when determining when to end your roast. Are you aiming for a dark roast? What type of coffee are you currently roasting?
@@VirtualCoffeeLab I am using a rotating roaster with a unwashed Mexican Chiapas green bean. I'm aiming for a light /medium roast.
That's interesting. So are you using a camping gas stove or a BBQ grill for your heat source. And, are you monitoring temperatures somehow?
How long does it take for your beans to go from green to full yellow?
What is your total roast time?
Caramelization or Millard Reaction.. it's like searing meat.. it's where the flavor is at! 👍
Hello Giovanny, thanks for watching my video. Yea, lots of reactions taking place to form flavors in the middle/browning phase. What are you roasting with?
@@VirtualCoffeeLab I just recently started roasting this last year using a Nesco CR-04-13 which has been discontinued because of fire hazard. Been using it for about a year now, but I keep a good eye on it. However, I'm in the market for a 1kg coffee roaster - I'm looking at the Aillio Bullet Roaster. You got any suggestions?
@@giovannyt.6778 There are several Bullet roaster viewers here on my channel. I have heard great things about the bullet. This link www.home-barista.com/roasting/aillio-bullet-r1-roasting-experience-t43465.html is a good source to look at if you have not seen it already. Other than that I would consider the Aillio Bullet facebook group.
So I’m using a airfryer with a drum. I can only go up to 400 degrees and I figured out it takes 45 minutes to hit second crack. But my coffee tastes a little flat I’ve tried two different beans and it tastes the same. What am I doing wrong?
Hunter. I have never used an air fryer BUT One of my viewers uses an air fryer with very good results. Go to this video and then look for gotelljesussaves user in the comments for that video. He explains in detail how he achieves a 6 minute roast just up to second crack.
If I had to guess, he is roasting a smaller quantity of beans than you are. You can pick up the conversation on that thread. 3 ways to increase coffee sweetness while roasting
ruclips.net/video/UBjP6JIziLs/видео.html
Hope that info was helpful. Your coffee tastes flat because your roast is way way way to long. Once you get your roast times shorter then you can focus on the phase percentages.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab awesome thank you!
How to know dry end time ?
the bean changes color from green to yellow. I determine yellow when there is no more green. others may do it differently. I use this method for every roast.
Cant seem to find artisan for an Ipad....anyone out there have any luck finding something that will work? im roasting with a SR800
Hi Ken. Currently it seems artisan download is for windows, Mac OS and Linux. I didn’t see iOS or Android. See this link artisan-scope.org/docs/installation/#step-1-download-artisan-for-your-platform
Thank you
Sniper Kaleido home coffee roaster is worth attention
Thanks for sharing Virgo. Do you have one? Which model? How long? Have you had any problems wi it?
Yeah, i am just a beginner, I have a Sniper M1 with dual system. The capacity of this model is 50g -200g. I have to say that I learned a lot from this machine because Smoke,Power and Roller are adjustable.And the chaff can be collected automatically.The roasted beans' color is very even. For people who are interested in roasting, I reccomend this brand .
Thanks for sharing Virgo. It would be nice to try one of the Sniper roasters some day. Glad you are enjoying your roaster!
You are right. See my video and more to come.
ruclips.net/video/eLAjepXtAg4/видео.htmlsi=MR5160Vk-TQxsZae
I'm confused because I usually hit dry end around 300 and first crack around 400. So should target a ror of 25 for a 4 min developmentpement?
Nick, our temperatures are going to be different. Depending on what you are using to roast will have a huge impact on your dry end and first crack. One way to figure all of this out is to look at your total roast time and then back into how much time you want to spend in each phase. So, I'm curious, what are you roasting on and what is your total roast time typically?
@@VirtualCoffeeLab thanks for asking. Your point makes sense. I'm using a fresh roast sr540 w/extension tube. I've got a bean temp probe connected to artisan. I've been roasting a variety of beans but mostly getting bland results. Typically I see end of dry phase around 3 minutes (~300f) and first crack around 10 minutes (~400f) with an average RoR of 14f/min for the dev phase. I usually drop at the end of 1c or after 1-2 minutes for city +
Nick,
I think your roaster has the ability to control temperature and air right? If yes, I would allow more time during the dry phase for a couple of reasons. First, this will allow heat to move towards the center of the bean evenly. If you apply too much heat, the outer bean will be brown quicker and you could have an underdeveloped roast. I talked about this on the "why is the dry phase so important" video as well as the "how to roast sweet and flavorful coffee". If you fly through the roast, your roasting the outside of the bean but not all the way through. Second, slowing your dry phase will allow you to control the pace of your roast all the way through the other two phases (browning & development). So, if you heat up your beans too quick during dry, more than likely you will rush through the browning phase too.
Try and slow down this phase so you go from green to yellow in in about 4-5 minutes. Then have the browning phase last 3:30 till first crack controlling your temps to aim for that time frame and then do your 1:30-2:00 minute development. I think I heard the freshroast is slow to cool down? Keep that in mind when selecting when to end your roast. I think if you try this profile compared to your faster one, you might get a more flavorful cup.
I don't normally like to talk about times when I make recommendations because it is basically a "recipe" and it is better to have you experience and try different times. So, i would highly recommend you watch my video "3 tips for new home coffee roasters" because it discusses all 3 phases and I offer a percentage of the total roast time for each phase and discuss why. It really is important to understand what and why so we can take control of our roasts. I hope that makes sense.
Nick, I meant to also say that by having a short dry phase like you have and then a really long browning phase, you are basically baking your coffee. So, try the changes I just suggested and let me know what happens.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab thanks so much for your explanation, tips and replies. I think you've really helped me improve my roasting. Basically what I was doing before is trying to get a constant declining rate of rise over the entire roast. Which means the highest rate of rise was during the drying phase, then it slowed down for the browning and finishing phases. Now what I do is keep the settings for the slowest rate of rise during the drying phase, then ramp up significantly at the end of drying (~35f/min ror) and aim for a constant declining rate of rise from there(down to
I needed to hear this. P.s. I bet you could grow a nice mustache.
Yea, I've had a beard and mustache..... not a good look for me. Thanks for watching Joel. I'm glad it was helpful!
I got a new bag of green. After roasting 5.00 ounces, the weight reduced to 4.25 ounces. That’s 15% water. Seems high to me.
depending on your roasting style and the type of coffee, 15% is normal. It could be 12% to beyond 15% if you are roasting dark. What type of roaster do you have and what is your roasting style/level?
@@VirtualCoffeeLab sr500 depends on my mood. Roasting on high for 8.2 minutes. This coffee not worth a light roast. Full speed fan. These are big bean so they don’t jam up the vent. I started out decades ago with oven/cookie-sheet. Then Poppery II. It caught fire. So bought the anemic SR500
It all about controlling rate of raise. It is difficult for home roaster
Hello Khaled. Thanks for your comment and for watching my video.
Yes, rate of rise is very important. For some home coffee roasting devices like the basic hive, a popcorn popper or frying pan, it is not possible to monitor the rate of rise while roasting. Unless logging software is used, monitoring rate of rise is difficult. Calculating ROR while roasting without software is almost impossible.
My opinion for those who don't have logging software to track ROR would be to focus on the phase percentages of the total roast time. This will help them get good flavor profile results. It might not be perfect but it is a great start.
What type of roaster are you using to roast coffee Khaled?
Really great video thank you Mike. I have been logging my roasts using the Behmor 2000AB+ with Coffee Roaster Pro app. Of course I can't capture bean temperature on the Behmor, so I am only tracking chamber temperature. Is there a way to figure out how to dial in a roast using chamber temperature and bean color?
Why not consider using a K type thermocouple probe into the oven? The K type thermocouple wire is very thin which will not cause temperature to drift
@@Presso99 thanks. I am actually looking into that at the moment. I am looking at two different versions. One like you're speaking of and another that actually modifies the roaster. But until I do that I was wondering if there was a way to get close without direct bean temp.
Mike, a couple of videos ago we talked about the behmor and temperatures. Lou (who was in the video) was trying to find out how much different the bean temp would be compared to the roasting chamber. There is a guy who has modified his Behmor to insert a probe for Bean Temp BT and connect it to artisan. That is fine and might provide some helpful info BUT I think that bean color, smell and sound will win the day with the Behmor.
As mentioned by E eual MC2, There are external probes you can buy online, kind of like a digital meat thermometer but for higher temps you could checkout but I think those temps will be very similar to what the Behmor reports.
Thank you both for your well-informed replies. I'll give this some pondering and let you know what I decide to do or not to do.
❤
Thank you for watching my video. I’m glad you like it. What are you using to roast your coffee? (What type of roaster)
@@VirtualCoffeeLab I am a beginner. I just learn a course about it but i am really interested in this. I am not decide what i should buy yet. I used Boca Boca Coffee Roaster in the class. Your video is really helpful for me. Thank you much 🥰
What is the name of the roaster behind you?
Hello, the roaster is a Mill City 500 gram coffee roaster. Early versions were known as North TJ-066
If roasting beans in a pan there is no way you can write down temperatures, as I constantly swirl the beans in the C.I pan. I know this video dedicated to owners of coffee roasters.
Hello @libertango, yes, that would be impossible. The reality of pan roasting is you are limited to only your senses and time. That means you are still able to manage temperature over time and still roast really good coffee. The concept I have been sharing about the 3 phases of coffee roasting and slowing the roast after dry end still applies to pan roasters although it will b e challenging. Thank you for your comment and for watching my video!
I am by no mean an expert but have roasted at home for years and have tried many many coffees, from cheap blends to the most expensive single origins availible. I have now stopped for a few reasons.
You cannot recreate a roast unless you have the exact raw beans and it cannot be a blend, it must be of same age with the same moist levels. On top of that, it has to be the same weather, air preassure, same season, same place and even the exakt same voltage in the power lines if you run your roaster with electricity and so on for it to taste the same.
Regarding your statement of getting the most flavours out of all coffees wirh a perfect roast profile is not apliable on all coffees, I have had very good cupped coffees with cheap extremely low scored coffee when toning down unwanted flavours. And there are coffees that not taste nearly as good if you don't hit second crack. And there are also coffees that are nearly undrinkable but taste like best thing ever if you use it to Capuccino/latte milk coffees.
Some of them even tasts better when roasting in an air owen instread of an drum roaster.
I have at least 30 different way to make coffee, 3 different vacuum, 5 different drop, espressomachines, automatic, mocha, turk, preassure and so on. And in my best Asberger moments I cupped most of them with the same beans on different roasts and roasting equipment. :)
I did found the Holy Graal brew once (I think) It was a single origin Brazilian Yellow Bourbon something with somewhat low scores and even low characteristics regarding, body, acidity, sweetness, nutiness, sharpness, clean cup and so on. It was like heaven to taste, sweet nut with a incredibel body and still so clean with an aftertaste of coffee and nuts that stayed in my mouth for hours. It was roasted in an air owen at 230c. I have never tasted any coffee in the world nearly as good. And after several failed attemts to find the exact same coffee and roast it the same way I gave up this hobby.
However after a couple of years with no roasting I found your videos and actually roasted a batch a couple of days ago and it was fun.
Hi Jonny, thank you for your message. I'm glad you are back at roasting again. I agree, beans change all the time. You can order beans from the same farm one year and the next they don't seem to taste the same. The beauty about roasting is the uniqueness of the coffee we drink.
Some coffee's will never be fruity and sweet. They are a different type and grown in a different climate which makes them unique. I have ad some really really good lower scoring coffee as well. Enjoy your roasting experience and thanks again for your comments.
I hope to share your Facebook account to send you photos of my Roasting results and my chart of Temperature and time to be able to correct what I doing, thanks your videos very useful
Beans, did you send anything to me via Facebook?
@@VirtualCoffeeLab not yet I just asked for your account first
@@mmortada1978 you can send that info through the virtual coffee lab facebook page.
I am not a fan of opening the door and losing heat to look at beans. That and the view to see the beans is the horrendous light color and stuff in the way.
Agreed. I open the door because the yellow light makes it hard to see bean color. Some Behmor users have changed their incondesant bulbs for LED and now the light is whiter, not yellow. you might like this behmor roasting video - ruclips.net/video/li_XZd1hrtI/видео.html
Too much info is being repeated with minimal specifics on how to do this or that.
PS I am a new subscriber.
Hi Paul, thanks for watching. I'm sorry my video wasn't specific enough. It is challenging to present "how to" videos when the audience is using so many different types of roasters AND coffee. General concepts are most helpful in that situation. Example, the total roast time for small air roaster will be different than a drum roaster or skillet. The comments section here helps address specifics. What type of roaster do you have. Do you have a specific question you are trying to address.
Thank you for your honest feedback and for being a subscriber!
If beans are misbehaving.....may I spank them?
hmmm
What is dry end? What is first crack? Why did you not take 30 seconds to explain?
Hello Axe2Grind, thanks for your comment. I did explain what dry end is at 1:26 where I say "the beans go from green to yellow....... we hit dry end and the beans are yellow". I talk about first crack at 9:24.
I included 3 cards that appear in the upper right corner that have links to "why the dry phase is important "which focuses on the first phase where the dry end event takes place, as well as 3 tips for new home coffee roasters", which covers all of the major events that take place during the roasting process including first crack.
Your mic sucks. I can barely hear you.
Thanks for watching Dan. The sound quality isn’t the greatest on this video but it is plenty loud. There are two different volume controls you could check. Obviously one is your device. The other is the RUclips player volume slide which could be set low? Sorry you are experiencing problems
Must be on your end Dan. It is so perfectly clear when I listened to it.
Too convoluted and slow
Thanks for your message Kathleen. Agreed, I can better now.... That video is over two years old and I was newer at making RUclips videos. Making these video has a learning curve. Especially for someone who is usually not a public speaker. My audience has been very patient with me. Now that I have been doing this for a couple of years I have learned to be more concise. Thank you for your feedback. I hope to put out a new, better version of this video in the coming months.
What are you using to roast coffee?