The Carney (Church of Christ) vs. Dailey (Baptist) Debate (part 1)
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- Опубликовано: 22 окт 2024
- Andrew Carney Debates Garry Dailey at Jackson Street Church of Christ, Nashville, TN - March 21, 2009
Affirm: It does make a difference what church one is a member of.
He is most definately speaking the truth. I am a Christian of the Church of Christ. I thank God for being with me throughout my life. I never went hungry. Any time I ever needed anything, the Lord always came through for my family and I.
Vlad IV~RomanianXsadr777 Mark 16:16(KJV) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Acts 2:38
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
We Christians follow the bible as it is written No additions, no subtractions.
@@kayharp7178 Amen sister !! That's why there are thousands of distorted doctrines and denominations in the world today .. Because people have raped the bible of its spirituality over the last 2,000 years .. The Catholics started all of it .. Every denomination you see today is an offspring of the catholic church … Its true
Jeremiah ch 5v21 hear this. Now o foolish people's without understanding who have eyes and see not and who have ears and hear not
Greetings brethren...the congregation in Eden, NC greets you (Rom 16:16) and we are so thankful for this debate...you all did a wonderful Job!!
Thank you, bro. Glad u enjoyed!
The Church of Christ is right.
am a member of the church of Christ in st.Vincent ,... praise the lord ,...preach it brother !
YoungKingg !! Praise God! West Orlando Church of Church
The Greek word "eis" in Acts chapter 2 verse 38 is the exact same word used in Matthew chapter 26 verse 28. It NEVER means "because of". Take any Greek lexicon and look it up. It is always used in a prospective manner. In Matthew 26:28 it says ".... this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for "eis" the remission of sins." If "eis" in Greek means" because of" then the passage in Matthew 26:28 would mean "... this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many (because of) the remission of sins. This makes Jesus dying on the cross an afterthought for remission of sins. No church I know of teaches that Jesus died because man's sins had already been forgiven. Jesus died to ensure that man's sin would be paid.
The most simple explanation is Acts 2:14-39. At that point in time there were only the Old Testament Scriptures as the New Testament Scriptures were not even in existence yet. Peter quotes several Old Testament scriptures pertaining to Jesus being the Christ. Remember that Jesus gives the keys to the Kingdom to Peter to open the door first for the Jews and then for the Gentiles. After hearing the Gospel preached by Peter, they are cut to the heart and ask "Brothers what shall we do?" At this point they have heard the Gospel and believed but are still asking what shall we do? Peter answers with what they are to believe and obey(=faith), "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off- for all whom the Lord our God will call." There are many scriptures that are written later by Paul and others that some churches say negate baptism and relegate it to simply a symbol like a wedding ring, etc. or just something secondary. Some will say it is a work and they are right, but not of man but of God Himself! Baptism is faith in action: after hearing the Gospel(Death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ) believing that by repenting and being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of our sins, we will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Notice I'm not using later scriptures like Romans 6 or others to justify what I said because Acts 2 is enough. The Kingdom of God is ushered in and Peter opens the door for the Jews and then the Gentiles (Acts10:Cornelius). Believe and obey. I hope this helps!
FACTS! Amen!
The church are a group of people. The church, as it were, are all those saved by the blood of Christ. Denominations are man made. Jesus didn't come to set up buildings or religion. He came to save those who God loved, all of mankind. John 3:16. If we start breaking down what church you go to and if you don't go to this church you're not save and if you don't go to that church you're not saved. We are not saved by a building or by a group of people, we are saved by the Son Of Man who died and was raised again for forgiveness of sin. Amen!
Baptize is Baptizo which is full submersion in water.
Except for a few obscure Gnostic groups, the first time in Christian history that water baptism was said to not be essential and necessary for salvation was in the 16th century with John Calvin. There may have been changes in its mode, or the meaning behind it, or differences over the appropriate subjects for it, but for the first 1,500 years of Christianity in order to be saved you had to be baptized in water.
Even Augustine who influenced the teaching and theology of John Calvin insisted that baptism is essential and necessary for salvation. The challenge for those who disagree is to provide legitimate valid proof where early Christians held to the "faith only" concept with the elimination of water baptism in their teaching. It just simply is nowhere to be found in most of Christian history and begins with John Calvin in the 1500's.
Rightly divide the word of truth. Show us in the scriptures where Holy Spirit baptism saves. Also, we don't always take baptize to mean in water.
If Baptists believe that water baptism is not essential to salvation then why do they practice it at all? If they are saying that to become a Christian you don't need it, then why do they require it? Of course if that's the case based on what they say then it's more difficult to become a Baptist than it is to become a Christian.
It is done as an act of obedience and as a sign of the death of our old self and resurrection into a life for Christ.
skip up to the 7 min mark : )
filoll...could you please answer the questions and show how it means HS baptism? I am a former Pentecostal "bishop" now member of the Lord's church and this isn't even a position that many holiness or Pentecostals take...Baptizo means submersion in water...rom a derivative of 911; to immerse, submerge; to make whelmed (i.e. fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism:--Baptist, baptize, wash.
that was from the original greek work Baptizo
You all speak of Church as if it were a building or place. The Church is we the believers. The Church is not your building that we must attend in order to follow Christ. So in ending you are all wrong.
It is indeed a spiritual building and a spiritual place
1Pe 2:5
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
Colossians 1:13
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
I think it amusing how Protestants argue with each other who is right. Wasn't Protestantism started by a neurotic ex Catholic priest who shrugged off the guidance of the Church and said EACH INDIVIDUAL can read and interpret the Bible for themselves! And so here they go arguing who is right. Complete silliness.
BendyBus Song Well it doesnt take a scholar to see that there is no Mary worship or Pope in the Bible.
Show me where Holy Spirit Baptism saves.
:Acts 2:38 . I can also show you where Peter told 3,000 sinners condemned to hell were told to do it ... Galatians 3:27 . For as many of you that were baptized into Christ, have "PUT ON" Christ .. Do you think a person is saved if he or she doesn't have Christ "ON" them ..
@Truth Seeker Acts 2:38 is not referring to Holy Spirit baptism. The verse actually says:
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 2:38 KJV
Notice the verse says, and ye shall receive the gift...That's not Holy Spirit baptism. This is what happens during baptism by water.
I enjoyed listening to these Brothers in Jesus debate; I am a new Christian and I attend a Baptist Church (Independent Fundamental) and the baptism that saves is the baptism of the Holy Spirit and that happens when you've profess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus died for your sins. The water baptism identifies you with the death, burial and resurrection (i.e. you (the old man) dies, is buried and resurrected (as the new man) in the body of Christ). Praise Jesus!
Leo Miller Amen...
Amen
amen
Prove it please that immersion in the holy spirit saves.... book, chapter, verse and context...1 Thess 5:21 and 1 John 4:1
when it comes to the word of god inspired we must believe that they are indeed gods words just as we believe the words when we talk to each other in truth if we believe that christ being our exsample we have to follow the exsample or pattern in order to be just like the original exsample to be christian we must follow the manual the blue print when john baptised christ he didnt have no debate before he complied and it was not a sprinkleing or spraying when the enuch was baptised by philip it was no debate after peter went to corneiulus house they didnt hold a debate the bible gives us undenieable exsample that god has allways required baptism if one could be saved before baptisn then there would be a exsanple paul before he was converted prayed for a while untill annaise told him what to do his sight would not have came to him praying and laying on hands didnot work he said rise and be baptised so you see if we all follow the orig pattern there want need a debate session god bless
Great Job Brother....
THIS MINISTER SEEMS TO FORGET THAT WHEN PAUL WAS SPEAKING IN ACTS 20:28 THERE WAS NO DENOMINATIONS IN EXISTENCE THERE ALSO NO ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH IN EXISTENCE.
AS LONG AS THE TRUTH OF THE GOSPEL BASED UPON 1 CORINTH 15:1-4 IS PREACHED IN THE CHURCH OF CHRIST THEN IT IS PART OF THE REAL CHURCH THAT JESUS PURCHASED WITH. HIS PRECIOUS BLOOD. THE CHURCH IS NOT NECESSARILY A PHYSICAL ASSEMBLY BECAUSE SALVATION DEAL WITH OUR SOULS. IN JOHN 3:3 WHEN JESUS SPOKE ABOUT OUR BEING BORN AGAIN SPIRITUALLY. ( From above that is)
so how did this debate end?
My family is CoC, and rest assured, they're deceived. They think because the name of their church is kindof in the Bible, that means they're the true church, BUT, what about the Church of the First Born cult??? Heb 12:23. Their name is in the Bible, too, but.......
+filoIII Your opinion or anybody elses opinion is irelevant ... You have to prove that the doctrine the CoC is a false doctrine ... Theres nothing in the Bible that says theres more than one church that Jesus built . The CoC doctrine is the only one that holds up and follows the teachings of Christ and the Apostles ... The only one .... It was established A.D. 33 on the day of pentecost ... Its the only church you can read about in the bible .
+Truth Seeker The Thief on the Cross died under the N.T., yet wasn't dunked in water. How do you defend that?
+filoIII ,The Covenant was not fulfilled until Christ actually died. The thief confessed Christ Prior to His death, and the Christ forgave him under the law. Not the New Covenant.
I just saw his reply .. thank you John .. your exactly right ... Jesus could save anybody, any way He wanted to when he walked the face of the earth , and He did ..
+John Holt Jesus died before the thief, therefore, the thief died under the new covenant. The new covenant where you say our salvation depends on us being dunked in water by another sinful man.
Do you believe in the last messenger
I don't get why baptism is such an issue?
If you are a follower of Christ you will want to be baptized The bible says it, Jesus did it, so we should do it too. Whether you are considered saved before or after does not matter as long as you do it. I don't understand why Church's make this such an issue?
***** So is it important that we do it, or is it not required?...
***** Wow. That's the first time anyone ever admitted they were wrong. Thank you! That was so mature and believe it or not you have restored my faith in people's ability to just be... humble. I didn't think that really existed?
@@atlasshrugged2u Yes, it MUST be done and you MUST understand that it is for remission of sins ; read Acts 2:38. Must understand otherwise just getting dunked. Jesus himself said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. " One must believe before he is baptized; if he does not believe baptism will do nothing. Must understand that baptism is for salvation and NOT saved til after baptism.
@@lindahutchens8612 I hear ya, I've read it, and I agree. But there's always an exception to every rule. If someone is sick or in the hospital, studied the bible and came to believe while they were on their deathbed but couldn't get baptized, God would not hold it against them and they would be welcomed in His kingdom. I know it's an extreme example but those are the kind of questions people will come up with and we humans have to know that *only God* can change his mind or go back on his words. He is the only Authority who can do that. *"Therefore God will have mercy on whom* *He has mercy, He will have forgiveness* *for whom He'll have forgiveness and He* *will harden whom He will harden"* Romans 9:18
I think the reason the denominations have a problem with baptism is they think it is a work and we are not saved by works even though Colossians 2:12 says baptism is a work of God. Also we need to understand what happens in baptism otherwise we would just be getting wet. Baptists believe that you are saved by faith only and you get baptized to join the Baptist Church even though scriptures say the Lord adds you to His church; Acts 2:41 and 47. In baptism we "put on Christ" and ours sins are washed away.
@fillol . I can see you wont accept the truth because it's in the text. How can Jesus say. You will be with me in paradise if he had already died? Come on now.
Hello. Can you expand on John 19:30-33 please?
At the end of Acts 10 the Holy Spirit FELL upon the gentiles BEFORE they were baptized, and it says, "who can withhold water for these people to be baptized.?"
This shows that water baptism does not save you. In Ephesians 1 it says the Holy Spirit is the guarantee of your your salvation, meaning that they were saved before they were water baptized. You're saved the moment you believe.
Furthermore, in Acts 2:38 the Greek word "eis" in context means because of. For in this case means because of. Be baptized because of your forgiveness of sins or as a result of forgiveness.
I'm not trying to dumb down the importance of being baptized. It's certainly important, but it's not baptism that saves you, it's Jesus.
1st peter 3:21 says - the like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us.... also read acts 22:16 ...arise and be baptized and wash away your sins.....
What about Cornelius ? He was a gentile, a devout man, a God fearing man (ACTS10 ) .. He believed obviously but was he saved ? Or did someone have to be sent to preach the gospel message (Peter) .. Theres a difference between the Holy Spirit falling ON you and IN you .. Tell me how does one receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts2:38) ? And it was obviously important if Jesus himself said to do it in Mark 16 : 16 .. The scripture doesn't say he that believes will be saved does it ? It says He that believes AND is baptized shall be saved .. Why are you going against what Jesus said ? If he said to do it then just do it !!
@@TruthSeeker-lo6ry Amen!!!
Read carefully .... it fell ONTO not INTO ...
Where is God the Son in the Bible?
I timoteo 3:15, 16 salud you from pamama
@@harmbaker5041 That doesn't say "God the Son." It says God was manifest in the flesh... Not the same thing
@@RichiePGD who was manifested in the flesh?
@@harmbaker5041 God
@@RichiePGD god is spirit
Bro. Crowder!!!
Wow... this is like jam and jelly arguing about who tastes better.
No! this is defending God's truth. Which, I can see in your reply, you have very little respect for the truth, comparing it to jelly and jam :(
Your message goo
Bible is Correct
Peter told us Salvation
ACTs 2-38
1. REPENTance
2. Baptism in - JESUS name
3. Seek and revieve the Holy Ghost - with TONGUEs
It's so sad that us so-called Christians, who abound in love, spend so much time still bickering about how different we all interpret the bible. If one was truly after Christ, you'd do what he said. Go preach the good news. Period. If you don't agree leave it. You all sound like the Pharisee written in Luke 18:9. I've been in the CoC since 1986 & It's so sad that we condemn others who don't believe like us to hell. That's the main reason the CoC is dying. If it was so "right" it would be growing. Take what you believe and God bless you. When I joined dancing, playing cards was a sin. Well the preachers changed their minds on that. What else do you have wrong? Do you know all mysteries of the bible? No you don't. So what makes you so prideful thinking you are right and everyone who reads it different is wrong and NOT in the church. Be very careful and re-read Luke 18:9
I agree with you brother im in the coc as well. And that is very said. If we change that it will elevate the coc instead it is declining.
Jeffrey McReynolds
Jesus said Mark 16:15-16
15He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.
16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Peter says to the crowd on the day of Pentecost after preaching Jesus:
Acts 2:37,38
37When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
38Peter
replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of
Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the
gift of the Holy Spirit.
The Baptist doctrine teaches that baptism is not for forgiveness of sins but an "outward sign of inward grace" this at it's core is false doctrine and we should call them out on it as such. They teach a different gospel than what was taught in the first century church. They want to bury an already "saved" man in the watery grave since they believe a person is saved before baptism.
Paul to the church in Galatia:
Galatians 1
6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you
to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel-
7which
is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into
confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.
8But
even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than
the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!
9As
we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to
you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s
curse!
dsvet Then should you and the Churches of Christ be called out on your false doctrine? Many CoC preachers preached from the pulpit that women dressing in pants at church was a sin. That playing cards was sin. That dancing was sin. Was that false doctrine? To condemn someone as unrepentant sinners for playing cards? Now most of those preachers don't believe this anymore. They may even play a friendly game of spades. Be very careful my brother. The measure you use to judge others will be used to judge you. Don't be too prideful.
The Baptist (and I don't claim to be one) they DO believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. They really believe Christ died for sin. And that for sin forgiveness one must believe on Christ as the Way. That is the Gospel. The "false" gospels Paul focused on were those of Jewish traditions and customs. And how the converted Jews still were pressured to kept them. I truly say this in love. No judgement is meant here.
Jeffrey McReynolds Yes please call us out if you think it's "false doctrine". I don't know if it's a sin. If a man wears a dress to church is that a sin? 1 Timothy 2:9-10, 1 Peter 3:2-5 Define modesty. If these jeans are tight do they pose a problem. If dresses are too short do they pose a problem? Showing cleavage?
If playing cards for money, in other words GAMBLING, yes it's a sin. Many young people get introduced to gambling by playing a "friendly game of poker".
If someone is dancing in the meat market clubs today then yes it's a sin. Maybe these people you speak of were warning that if you play with fire you might get burned. A kind of preventive maintenance.
I have no doubt the Baptists believe. Even the demons believe. They just don't obey the full gospel by being baptized for forgiveness of sins as all 1st century Christians did. That's not judgement, it's using discernment and rightly diving the Word plain and simple.
dsvet If a man wore a dress to church would that be sin? I certainly could not say. Neither could you without knowing why.
Showing cleavage, tight clothes and such is not modest dress I agree. Not what I meant. I was referring to the preachers who said from the pulpit that a woman in ANY type of pants was sinning. Do you agree with that?
What about the opposite. If I came to your building as a visitor in a $3,000 Armani suit, is that modest dress? No it is not. But I'd be seen as more spiritual in that suit vs coming in with cargo shorts in August with a polo shirt and sneakers.
Gambling can certainly lead to sin, but for that to lead to a ban on all card playing is pure weakness. I got introduced to dice playing monopoly. But never shot "craps". Dancing in the strip club is sin, so do we ban all types of dancing? No. But at one time CoC preachers did. They were wrong by their own admission. And that's ok. It's called GROWTH.
Have you rightly divided the complete Word of God? You have it ALL figured out? If you say yes, you must be amazing, but I won't believe you. I'm NOT saying Baptist are right and you are wrong or vice-versa. I'm simply saying for those that don't divide the scriptures like you do, when you condemn them to hell, you are also condemning yourself.
So go preach what you believe, call others out and talk, then agree to disagree and go on your way and pray for each other's growth. But if you believe you have it all figured out, and those who don't agree with you are simply teaching false doctrine, BE CAREFUL as you yourself may have missed something because you are a human sinner yourself. This is WHY we need Christ in the first place. Pride goes before a fall. And from my experience The CoC denomination is certainly falling. Peace.
Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this is not from yourselves, it is a gift from God.
I think that followers of Christ should be baptized but it is their faith that saves them. Adding baptism to salvation is like saying the The Lord's sacrifice was not enough. His grace is enough. If a man is in prison and accepts The Lord but is unable to be baptized I believe Christ still saves him. God is not a God of technicalities but a God of love. It's infighting like this that divides the church thus driving people away. Lets agree on God's love.
Some imagine the “IT” in the phrase “IT is the gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8b) refers back to “faith,” but a closer study of the grammar of this verse makes it clear that the pronoun “it” refers to the “grace-through-faith” PROCESS, not to “faith,” per se.
No, we’re NOT saved “by [our] works” (v. 9), but we ARE saved “to do good works” (v. 10)! The suggestion that we will be saved with or without good works receives a stern rebuke in James 2.14-26. Take special note of vv. 19, 24, and 25. Will there be any demons in Paradise? Can a “dead faith” save anyone?
Ephesians 2.8-10 really says nothing about baptism, one way or the other, since baptism is not a “work of righteousness.” 1 Peter 3.21 says: “It is the pledge of a good conscience.” How could any sort of pledge or promise or even an oath be considered a meritorious "work"?
Please note: 1 Peter 3.21 also says: “. . . baptism now saves us. . . .” Consult any translation you like and each one renders it the same way: “. . . baptism now saves us. . . .”
I'm searching for a true Protestant Church that observes the Sabbath that is truly Christian based, not one that worships the sun.
Careya Jones What do you mean? I am sure if you want a church just because they keep the Jewish Sabbath, you can find it. If you want a church that follows the New Testament, including worship on the day Jesus was resurrected, the churches of Christ do that. If you put on part of the old law, you should put on all of it. . Christians don't worship the sun, any more than you worship Saturn.
I've noticed the Church of Christ will remove commas in verses to make it look like we must do such and such. Research their literature regarding Acts 2:38.
These people know zilch about Holy Spirit baptism, which is salvation. The MUST assume the word baptize ALWAYS means dunked in water, which it doesn't.
The New Testament was written in Greek; there were no commas in Greek, and likely no spaces in between words depending on when written.
@@kermitdfrogz That's what makes the KJB superior. It explains the meaning of a passage w/ punctuation
THE THIEF ON THE CROSS WAS NEVER BAPTIZED YET HE WAS SAVED. CHRIST BROUGHT HIM THE PARADISE.RELYING ON THIS EVENT IS ENOUGH AS IT WAS CHRIST WHO APPROVED IT.
Scripture doesn’t reveal whether the criminal on the cross was baptized or not! How can anyone be sure he wasn’t? He probably was, since he rebuked the other criminal for disrespecting our Savior, he knew of and argued Christ’s innocence, and even acknowledged him as King by referring to Christ’s “kingdom” (Luke 23.38-43).
Besides, Christ could’ve given this man a personal exemption, without exempting everyone who’s lived ever since from obeying the command to “Repent and be baptized.” It’s Christ’s kingdom, so the King can admit anyone he likes. But unless we’re hanging on a cross next to him, receiving special dispensations from his lips, the criminal’s case tells us nothing about OUR situation!
As F.F. Bruce has explained, baptism has ALWAYS been the initiation rite into the Christian religion, adding, “The idea of an unbaptized believer simply is not entertained in [the] NT.”
We don't know if he was baptized or not, and it does not matter anyways because Christ had the power to forgive sins while he was living on earth (Mark 2:10).
Jesse Childress The thief on the cross died before Jesus did. That means he was still under the Mosaic law when he died.
What is my point? My point is that the thief died BEFORE Jesus Christ died on the cross. Baptism was not required under the Mosaic Law, therefore the thief was not required under the Law of Moses to be baptized. We did not have Christianity just yet, so even if the thief had died after Christ, Jesus had not yet given the apostles the Great Commission, which you can read about in Matthew 28:19. This He gave to them after His resurrection.
Yes, Jesus has the power to save anyone, that is why He told him he would be with Him this day in Paradise.
*I wish to correct what I have said in this comment. We don't know if the thief on the cross was already dead before Jesus died, or if he died after Jesus.
Carole Smith YES YES YES! . You are correct ... i misunderstood your comment .. i must have read it to fast ... i apologize ..