This is a huge problem at the dealership. As a master tech. diagnostic specialist you get one hour. One hour usually on a car that went to 3 shop because they didn't want to spend money at dealership. Then I get it do my basic diag in a car that apart in pieces with more problems caused then it originally had! Customer flips out says they aren't paying a penny over the 1hr labor and we are ripping them off! Then manager gets involved tells me to FIX it don't worry about time. Then I get screwed after cars fixed 4-5 hrs later. Dealer life sucks as diag guy best to stay a C tech bang out gravy work with no stress of electric and drivability problems.
I need to save this comment. This is 100% our field, not just a dealer. Big chain aftermarket places are like this too! Doing my best to make a difference. Thanks for sharing!
It amazes me that people will drop thousands on a guess and balk at the idea of paying a couple of hundred to guarantee and prove it is repaired. The blame goes to the parts stores and large chain shops for their "free" diagnostics as well as the instant gratification people.
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Thanks Danner's. Appreciate the emphasis on "we don't work for free". I believe your videos have helped and will continue to change our industry. Communication/people skills is key with Mr or Mrs customer. Thank you!
I appreciate you putting this video out! I have said it before and I’ll say it again, YOU are what’s right with this industry. There is not another trade or industry out there that doesn’t charge someone when they look at something or come out. We as a whole have created this problem. It’s amplified by the free “diagnosis” by the parts stores. And if the shops would still do their part the parts store issues would have mostly gone away. People would learn after they got it wrong that they are not providing any real value by scanning a vehicle. Dealerships and independent shops need to communicate to the customer what they can expect and what they cannot. Set the expectations so they are not surprised by a charge afterwards if they haven’t found the issue. Communicating what is not the problem really helps ease the conversation.
You hit the nail on the head Paul. Communication is key. I may over communicate with my customers but they keep coming back and are happy to have their vehicles repaired properly!
Ive recently just got promoted into a foreman/ manager position at my shop, ive been in this business for about 15 years and youve said it all man gotta be able to lay everthinb out to a customer and even more so when you do repairs on fleet companies the more info you can give and justify your time the easier it is to sell kore time and to keep that relationship on good terms 👏👍
Same feeling here brother but it also doesn't make sense to spend all day trying to fix a problem and not get paid at the end just because you couldn't fix it. It should be 50/50 when fault is not found and fixed.
@@abubakarisadiqueibrahim481 100%. I always end up knocking a bit off of my diag fee if I cannot find the issue. Just to be fair (I'm a mobile mechanic). But working for free is no option. I'm already losing on gas and time. Need something!
I wish service managers and advisors fully understood this. Some do, most certainly do not. I work at a Chrysler dealership, customers are always coming in with multiple concerns such as 1: customer states transmission is slipping. 2: customer states ABS light is on. 3: customer states vehicle lacks power. Now an experienced advisor would inform the customer that it would be at least 3 hours of diag time. If they end up all being related maybe not but most advisors will tell the customer 1 hour. ABSOLUTE BULLCRAP!! It’s hard enough that customers think you just plug in a tool and tell them what’s wrong, but now the guys that are supposed to be on our side are screwing us! 1 hour for 3 concerns? No. If you want to pay us flat rate you need to play by the rules.
Yeah I get that but if you're serious about getting paid you gotta draw a line in the sand. Either they pay you properly (for your time no more no less) or you're leaving, and tell them that. Don't take less. If my service advisor tells me that, I'm flat out saying I ain't doing it. Wtf they gonna do fire me? For what? Not working for free? Go ahead. I'll get another job by tomorrow and let the labor board know. Tell them that just like that man.
I'm a customer who watches your videos and "knows things". 😁 I've got an ac problem in with a technician right now who I'm paying to diagnose an issue that's beyond my tools and knowledge. What's most frustrating is when I pay for them to tell me nothing new and nothing's changed.
They should state what test have been carried out and the results. Then that should give you a sense if they are even looking in the right direction or maybe get new eyes on the case.
You are awesome man. You just helped me i was in that predicament thinking I had no choice n I had to work for free but not no more. I appreciate you greatly.
Paul I am a technician around your age, We must charge for our time. I would guess you have gone way above and beyond to help your customers out too. I would charge for labor time, diagnostic time, and even what we called "window time" when we had to go to a salvage yard/ parts store. when you talked about the doctor and his diagnostic time it reminded me of things I use to say. when a doctor is wrong with a diag. they will say "they are practicing medicine." The difference between a Mechanic and a Doctor is this, when a doctor misdiagnose some symptom they bury their mistake. When a mechanic makes a misdiagnoses he has to fix his mistakes! Love the videos Thank you.
A trend that I've been seeing in the industry is that repair shops are claiming that a lot of their profit comes from the markup on parts. I think that's a backwards business decision. The repair shops should be charging for the skills and talent their technicians have. Parts changers have little, if any, diagnostic ability. It's almost like the technician who can trace an intermittent problem down to a corroded wire is demonized because he didn't sell any parts to make a repair. If we want to be parts salesmen, we'll go work at an auto parts store!
I agree, the people who take the time and develop the skills to fine the actual fault are often scolded for it. I worked at a few shops where the manager knew next to nothing about automotive repair, they were more or less a salesman. They were only interested in how many parts and services they can sell to a customer. The guy who finds the wire that is broken and can repair it is not as valuable to them compared to the guy who recommends swapping different parts and up selling extra services.
I know that exact feeling of being scolded for fixing a car with out new parts. At a previous employer, car was towed in from another shop because supposedly it needed a pcm and programming. The boss of course was excited for that. I got the RO, and after 2-3 hrs of fixing all the screwed up wiring the other shop loused up, the veh drove out perfectly fine under it's own power. My shop owner was livid that I fixed it with out the new computer. I asked him, "would you rather take $1800 and not fix the car, or the proper amount of labor time and have it fixed", he just said, "next time just do what you're told". ..... I laughed......
People hear I am an electrician and frequently they have electrical work they want done. Most of the time I just tell them I don't do side work, but some times I say no problem $100 and hour 4 hour minimum, I have had no one take me up on that.
Paul, understood that time is money. There are innumerable videos (South Main Auto, Pine Hollow Diagnostics) that have recounted expensive, ineffective repairs. I use the malaligned scan tool to at least give some insight before my car goes to the shop. There are a lot of untrained mechanics who charge for ineptitude.
I admire your work and knowledge. I went into a different field because people would rather pay for things they want (rims, lift kits or fancy sound system or a quinceñera party), instead of things they really need (vehicle repair) My charge was 2 hours of initial diagnostics. 9 out of 10 would say: "no, that's too much, I already went to autozone and they say all I need is an o2 sensor" Got so freaking tired of educating customers. Hope the world gets to watch this video. Thanks for everything my man
This is exactly why I've been just dealing with an intermittent no-crank issue. Some days it just doesn't want to crank, and the rest it's fine. I have done everything myself to diagnose, and it's either the ground or starter itself. It's been doing this for almost 2 years now. I sent it to the shop, and whaddya know, by the time the mechanic got to it IT WAS STARTING AGAIN. Absolute money-pit of an issue if I let a mechanic try and chase this intermittent issue. This is why for some customers it *sucks* to pay for diagnosing intermittent issues.
Grab a 10mm (or appropriate), and loosen then tighten every ground strap, both ends... Have you used jumper cables to starter from battery when no start condition? (ground and hot direct to battery). GL ps. Had a merc that took me 3 days to diagnose/fix... was a relay as I recall.
An experienced diagnostic tech , will test appropriately for the system and one who uses a scope can detect poor circuits and components. With good data can make a call to fix an intermittent issue of a failing part/control circuit. JS
Also, where are you Matt? I'm retired and help some folks/friends and family out, if relatively local (1 in X chance), I'd be willing to diagnose without charge and fix, you buy parts and assist.
@@kennethhicks2113 Thanks for the offer. The issue came back after over 2 months again. This time I checked nearly everything. New symptom being it cranks for a split second then no longer responds to crank signal. It did this twice this week. Both days split second crank then no response after. Solenoid gets 12v every time key in crank Heavy gauge hot always 12.3v Voltage drops to 12.09 on the heavy gauge with key in crank There is no voltage leaking into ground on the engine block The only thing I haven't tried is bypassing the system with a direct jumper to starter (it's not easy setting alligator clips on blindly). Seems to me it's been the starter the entire time? It's only about 3-4 years old, but I'm not sure what brand the previous shop installed in there.
@@TheGuccibane Based on how I'm reading what you wrote, key always applies 12V to solenoid and solenoid always outputs 12V with very little voltage drop. This tells me not much current output to starter and thus not enough power to turn the starter motor. Diagnosis/guess, bad starter or ground. Considering the difficulty of getting 12V to starter, use jumper cable from battery ground to engine block close to starter (you supply known good ground on starter).... if same measurements, bad starter. GL
This is something that used to chap me something fierce when I was still in this business. Why should techs work for free? No one else does. Some of what bothered me the most was some customers just had the attitude that well since my car is broke you have to fix it with minimal or no charge to me. Much time is spent now and has been for several years now, just finding wiring schematics, narrowing down the problem, before ever even touching the car. All of that takes time to do. I still wish this industry would do away with the flat rate pay system. Unfortunately, that is what has created all of the parts changers out there in my opinion.
Amen BROTHER! People absolutley need to be informed! I always make sure they understand what is happening. The more Educated they are the better they feel about moving on with the process!
Unfortunately it also comes down to alot of shop owners or service managers who also don't want to pay a technician for diagnostic time. Technicians are pressured so much to have an answer of what is wrong within the first hour diagnostic time, you get guys start doing guessnoatics in hopes to happen to fix the issue. Then when that does not work, the technician gets it in the neck because it does not fix the problem. The industry is getting worse when it comes to this and less and less people are wanting to get into the automotive industry. You make the same points I have been ranting on for years about the same things. I always appreciate your videos Paul, thanks for sharing all your k knowledge.
I love your channel and always look forward to what is next. I am a retired autobody repairer and know exactly what you mean especially with intermittent electrical problems. I do want to comment on time charged for repairs. I absolutely agree one must pay for one's talent. It takes many, many years to be a pro at anything. Admittedly some folks never get better than average but charge the same and most times more because of time spent. A rookie may spend three days to find a problem whereas a pro may take a day or an hour because of their years of experience.( must pay for that talent). Regardless if we are talking about lawyers, doctors, mechanics, plumbers, etc there are great professionals and then there are those that barely pass. Every shop has its best mechanic and then the rest. I do prefer to pay the bigger buck for someone with years of experience. Rookies have to start somewhere and I don't mind a rookie working alongside a pro on my car or home etc. In collision repair or rust repair? We also have the real good pros and then the average joe. Yet the door rates are the same is my point. So charging is important but so is the level of the expert on the case. We all cringe at having to go to a dealer, however, if you get the "right" person, sometimes it is faster/cheaper because maybe the pro has experienced your symptoms before vs a private garage that has never worked on your particular vehicle and needs to "learn" from ground zero. This rant is not worth a dime, but it's free. TY
I completely agree with you, in Spain we have exactly the same problem, but much more serious since neither the bosses themselves value, neither the knowledge nor the time invested in training to make a good diagnosis, much less the clients when they spend hours and hours looking for a fault and avoid changing parts.
As a workshop foreman in a dealership most of my day is spent on diagnostics. I have made my service advisors watch several of your videos relating to this topic and after a couple of months they finally got it and things are running so much smoother. Managing customer’s expectations and giving proper detailed write ups on invoices,so when Mr customer comes back with a MIL on they have full documentation of what was fixed what code was stored etc, so you have to pay again cause it’s a different fault different job
100% , the doctor comparison is exactly right. They charge for every test they run , not even by the hour. Heck they charge you for just showing up and talking for 5 minutes 😵
I used a customers vehicle to test drive it while getting parts for another vehicle. Yet, you'd here ppl gripe that you were using their vehicle for free. Aggravating!!!
My wife works in insurance, she gets mad if she catches me taking customer vehicles thru the drive thru. I consider it a valid diag test. "Drive thru noise verification test" Yes, charge for your time & diag. Great video as usual, thanks
I tell the customer up front what my average time spent diagnosing a vehicle is and give them a ball park to look at. I tell them it could be more or less depending on the problem. I also have them read and agree to terms and conditions I send them via email before going there. Part of the terms and conditions is I must be paid regardless if I find the fault or not or if a component needs to replaced and programmed at the dealer unless I say otherwise. I haven't had anyone complain yet.
Nice video. I used my Verus lab scope and the knowledge I have learned from to trouble shoot my Aqua Hot boiler in my RV. The scope showed the glitch the volt meter just showed a small drop in voltage. It still was a hard call to make since the Webasto controller is a thousand bucks. Got a rebuilt one for half price and problem fixed. Thanks Paul for all your teaching and the people whining about you talking to much can go and kick rocks.
Really great PSA about diagnostic time.. yeah the educated customer knows your time isn’t free. Couldn’t agree more with that analogy on the doctor visit not finding anything, but you’re still gonna be charged, this is the exact same. Great scenery on that drive very lush .. but I’d expect that in PA.. I always find your commentary educational and witty.. I’m a DIYer and don’t just swap parts, I try to diagnose and solve problems.. but if I scan something and it shows intermittent I/O issues I’ll RR a part of it’s not too expensive, like an ABS sensor.. I won’t tell my buddy if I’m working on his car you need a $800 ABS module.. open communication is key.. I think customers will understand
For me eating in the customer's car or using the customer's car for a personal errand is a no no….. This is the one thing that sooooo many technicians in the field disagree with me on…. If I go for a road test, that's all I do, road test the vehicle..... The car is only operated for diagnostic or troubleshooting purposes..... I know guys are going to beat me up in the comments because sooooo many techs do it but it is just my view for staying professional Nothing personal only professional...thanks for the video, keep them coming!!!
I wouldn't beat you up on that. The trade off then is you should be billing for every minute you spend in that customer's car. And if you say that is what I do, I have ZERO problem with that. Certainly us eating in the customer's car does not come off as very professional and if that car was going back to that customer this same day, we would have an issue there.
You're absolutely right about 9 out of 10 shops being nothing but parts changers. I work at a shop that takes in all the work that the other local shops and dealers can't handle. It really sucks when you get a vehicle after it has been to 3 other shops for the same issue. Half the time the vehicle arrives with the truck full of old parts, the vehicle is partially disassembled, and there's a whole slew of erroneous fault codes from the last guy unplugging stuff.
I agree. I work for a dealership and we get a lot of cars from the independent car lots or the buy here pay here lots and those "techs" at those lots and the chain shops can't fix the most obvious fault especially if it has anything to do with electrical work.
@@JD730 I think a big part of the problem is that most tech schools don't seem to teach diagnosis and they don't give their students real world problems to diagnose. I went to a pretty good school, but I still learned most of my diag skills by working in the field and seeking out information online. The case studies that ScannerDanner posts are way more informative than what I saw in school.
@SALEEN961 😂😂😂 "school" only teaches the basics, enough to get you an entry level job. I get a good laugh at people who think school teaches everything you need to know and will make you an expert
Your right bro I do the same thing your time is money and if someone else fixes it cheaper and they mess it up then they call you then it's more money beside it's a convenients to go to their home to fix it then to take it to a garage and always get paid what your worth. Keep the good work up.👍👍👍
I love what you say my biggest issue with running my own business but also being a tech. Being a mobile mechanic as well deff makes it interesting in charging as well. Also testing is a weird one for me
I took my truck to a shop recently to get a inspection and get my tail light wiring fixed. I knew what it was that needed fixed, I just didn't want to do it. I work 7 days a week and the last thing I want to do is work on my own truck in 100 degree heat. Here's how my bill totaled Inspection- $12 Electrical diagnostic-$135 Labor for wiring-$65 Light bulb-$17.50 Ball joint replacement-$ 120 Ball joint labor-$275 4 wheel alignment-$135 Now after my tax I was out the door paying almost $700 for a ball joint, tail light wiring fixed, a bulb, inspection and alignment. Also I had to miss 2 days of work because the shop originally told me they would be done the day I took the truck there. I had to get ahold of the shop 30 minutes before they was to close and see what was up with my truck. Then they said oh well we was really busy today and wasn't able to get to it, so either you can leave the truck here or bring it back tomorrow. Well I told them to keep it and it ended up taking them 4 days to fix my truck instead of the 1 I was told. I had to miss 2 days of work. So not only was I out the 700 to pay the shop I was out my 2 days pay at work. How's that fair to me? I still got charged for telling them what was wrong with my truck, $135 for electrical diagnostic.
If a doctor does a MRI and finds nothing you still pay for the MRI. Same with any other tests, scans, or blood work. You have to pay even though nothing is found. If he gives you 2 aspirins and tells you to call him in the morning, you will be billed for the office visit and 2 aspirins and when you call him the next morning he will bill for another office visit.That said, every thing you test that IT ain't will lead you to what IT is. Process of elimination. NO DIFFERENCE IN HIM AND US. WE SHOULD BE PAID FOR WHAT WE DO. We should and can use his standard line "OUR TEST WAS INCLUSIVE, SO WE NEED TO DO MORE TESTS". This is exactly what we should be doing. Communicate with the customer, tell him what you didn't find and make a recommendation for more time or bring it back while it's acting up. {CALL ME IN THE MORNING} NO....N.. O.. No other profession gives away their time, we should not either.......
Your point is 100% valid, but a lot of mechanics bill 2.5 hours for pulling a code with zero follow up, which gives real mechanics a bad name by affiliation.
Working at several dealerships and shops over the years, the biggest hurdle was getting the"boss or service writer" to understand this concept. Those are the jobs I evacuated very quickly. Of course these employers loved that I could fix the problems other techs or garages but after getting multiple diag jobs in a week I usually got screwed on my hours. Oh well just a rant. The parts changers seem to get the recognition and pay and us diag techs get the crap end of the stick. Frustrating AF
So I am no longer a mechanic and had stopped doing DIY for several years. But now I take care of my own cars and several others for friends and family. And let me say I agree with you. But my question is who pays for the parts cannon? Or for the shop that changes the oil and lets all the Freon out, AC worked when it went in. And did not when it left. Separate shop tested it charged it and no leaks. And I do understand the customer that comes in and says I have a miss change the coil. And does not allow diagnostic time. They should pay. But the tech should also communicate what he see's even in those circumstances. Your point about communication is key. I would rather of had a tech call me and say hey I am an hour in. And we know it is not x or y we think it is B but could be 3 other things. And to diagnose all other options would take 4 more hours. Do you want me to replace B. And see what happens which may mean a return and more diagnostic time. Up to you mr customer. But that is not what seems to happen and this happens often. I truly believe in your training. I pay for it actually mostly because I have received so much value from the free stuff you do on RUclips. So yes I believe Techs should get payed for their services. But Techs and Shops need to get way better at communications. I stopped taking my cars to shops because of several situations all with in a single year happening to me with several different shops. Oil change that dumped all the oil out with in 4 miles of leaving the shop, Another services that the air cleaner was left out all together and the air box was not even closed up. And Yes one case of me being that customer. I told them to change the clutch. the pilot bearing was bad but the left the old one in, never called me. 2 days later after picking truck up had issues shifting. pulled transmission pilot bearing was welded to the crank, had to put new crankshaft in. And had tires and breaks done. Lugnuts were not torqued down. Driving down the highway front wheel passes my daughter into the ditch. No studs left on wheel when done. That one is a bit of speculation it could have been over tightening as well. Either I suck at picking Shops. Or there is a bigger systemic problem that really needs to be addressed. And not all these were same shops and not all same city. It can be expensive finding a shop you can trust.
Because of time issue i left this work i cahnged my line to factory automation.customer thinks they paid for fix the car not only for diagnostics never win this part with automotive work so ran away from it but i love this work as much as i can say.worst customer are who dont leave their car with you to work upon thats the most absurd thing to have.
Next topic should be on what shops pay their techs. I’ve worked in a number of shops that their certified master tech can’t diag a car for crap or just goes straight to the computer and tells the advisor what’s wrong based on most common fault. And yet they get paid the “big bucks”. It also bugs me how the we the techs have not seen a pay adjustment based on cost of living for decades now. Years ago 26-30$/hr was considered pretty good. Now days that’s barely enough to pay for tools and everything else and yet 32$/hr is still considered high according to shop owners and companies. Such a pain to deal with.
Yes, we should learn to communicate well with the client from the first moment. If he doesn't like the deal, we don't waste our time and money. Greetings from Panama.
I think mechanics need to see this video, but I also think that customers would learn something by this video also. I went to a shop on the July long weekend to check a truck that was around a few different shops and they couldn't find the problem. I found the problem, shop owner starts bickering with me over my charge, after spending a couple of thousand dollars already between himself and the other shops he sent it to for my couple of hundred dollars to actually solve his problem. Sometimes people piss me off! Stay well everybody!
So so so, many times I've worked for free and I'm tired of that crap as well. I freakin charge every time now! Although I'm good at it, I hate wiring harness problems along with fuse block problems!
I always get the people who seem to not understand that it may take more than an day to diagnose an situation. They always seem to think diagnoses takes an hour and it's just an scan but they don't understand that you may have to scope the car run live diagnoses on scanner and all this can take time when your navigating the scanner waiting for loading times page to page. Or when scoping you may have to scope more than one sensore or part which takes time to reset scope up and settings. On top of that all the other test like block testing for compression or snap throttle testing when in live diagnoses on scanner. Just sucks when you have someone who wants there issue resolved but don't want to wait to get there car back so they take there car blow up the engine then there mad that they have to buy an new car
It blows my mind when one’s ask if I charge to diagnose? If the diagnosis goes toward the repair? These people are clueless to the cost of equipment, value of product knowledge and the value of my time!!! When I’m asked those questions, I defer the work to someone else. Not the client I’m looking for. They’ll never value what I’ll do for them
You don’t get a doctor visit for free. Facts 💯 We are the auto doctors so we are not free. I’m also tired of people thinking my time and skill is cheap because I’m a mobile mechanic. I’m a mobile technician not a tree shade diyer
Had an ac system diag a week or so ago, woman called me and asked if I could figure out what was wrong with her ac, I said I can take a look at it, but my rate for diag is 50 an hr, she knew full well before arrival, I gave her a little over an hr and diagnosed the problem, informed her what the problem was, asked if I could replace it on the coming mon, said yes, also asked if she could pay for it all mon, reluctantly said yes, and never heard from her again, now I know that's my fault, but I figured being that a friend referred her to me it wouldn't be an issue, on top of informing her the ac shop that just "replaced" a line, didn't replace anything. But no, I guess she felt she needed to get what she lost from the shop, out of me. From now on my diags will be paid up front or I'm not looking at it.
It Snap-On, Mac Tools and Matco Tools fault because they don’t sell magic wands and crystal balls. That’s what I think the motoring public thinks we have in our multiple tool boxes. They think we’re suppose to know the cause of every problem because we do work this everyday all day. They don’t realize every job is different. Oh, great video as usual.
One variable to keep in mind. If you work in a shop with a service advisor who is the middle person between the tech and the customer. In this case, communication is not just about a good or bad tech.
Exactly, Awesome a prominent industry person says this! We recently had a customer with an Explorer who asked us to install an alternator. We asked her for diagnosis, she said that was a rip off to charge just for checking her car. Her car was charging and had a parasitic draw that kills the battery after sitting a couple days. She left angry that we wouldn't install an alternator. This is our world, can't win them all.
It's a conundrum. Knowledge isn't action but knowledgeable people still need to get paid for their time (edit--their diagnostics). Mechanics are supposed to listen to the customer but a lot (?) of customers also throw curve balls. The mechanic has to start with the ABC's or they are setting themselves up for failure. It's fine to do what the customer says they want done with the mechanic's caveat of---OK, but I am charging you for it and I don't guarantee that is the fix e.g. throwing parts at it. Story--Neighbors son took their badly running car in. The mechanic pulled a DTC and replaced the CPS for $240. The car still wouldn't start and the mechanic told them they needed to unplug a relay, turn ignition on and then off, then replace the relay to start the car; the car was still barely running. Another shop said it needed a new transmission (edit---a new engine) to fix the problem. I pulled a DTC---bad CPS. The mom neighbor put in a new CPS and the car runs fine. I have a bad back so I can't do a lot, but I still have eyes. My two friends, who have tons of wrenching under their belts, and I went to get a truck one of them picked up for cheap because it would not start. After watching them for an hour trying to start it I walked over. Two wiring harnesses were unplugged. It started right up after plugging them in. What I am getting at is even the most cursory visual inspection can lead to a solution. Most people have no clue what they are looking at or for. I'm like, how can you not see something staring you right in the face? LOL. The Car Wizard has several videos where his customers have been bounced from shop to shop because they (edit, the shops) couldn't diagnose even the most basic problems---spark, fuel, air. Sad sigh. Industry full of incompetence and rip offs. Best wishes to awl! Edit---I have seen people who do something to their car (or nothing at all), try starting it, still barely runs, or not at all, and keep cranking it or starting and stopping it thinking it will run better after this ritualistic mumbo jumbo ...too funny! Also, Paul your one great dude. And peoples, show him the MONEY!
Very good point sir! Im actually fighting that same thing on my service vehicle. My jeep has an intermittent boost control circuit fault that puts it into limp mode at seemingly random times. When i get to a point of putting my scope on it, the fault isnt there. It acts up until i shut it off then it resets. I know a problem is there, but cant say for sure where the circuit fault is yet. Its the same for my customers. Im trying to find the fault and sometimes it takes longer than an hour.
i work full time at a fleet/municipality.... when i make repairs to help out friends, family, outside customers.... troubleshooting comes with prior authorization of up to 4 hours to look at it and if they have a problem with that they get to take their car to a parts changer and I refuse to look at it
Great information Paul. Just out of curiosity, if you have an intermittent problem that you cannot duplicate. Where do you draw the line? How much time? In the past I used to spend on and off several days trying to duplicate the customer concern. Driving down bumpy roads, shaking the whole truck around, wiggling all harnesses, etc lol. Now, depending on the issue, I’ve gotten to the point where I only spend a few hours before I just ask the customer to bring it back when the problem is more frequent.
Sometimes I just go over it quickly then give it back without a charge at all! Why? Because I do NOT want to own it. Once you charge them, it is now your problem. And yes, just tell them to bring it back when it is happening more frequently
Doctors suck now a day. I honestly truly feel that a really good technician is almost like a detective but has to have the iq level of a doctor if that makes sense lol love your stuff. I am constantly trying to learn and become a better diagnosing technician.
The problem is when the shop guessing and the customer has to pay for the consequences or when the customer thinks get code is the diagnostic. On electric problem you know when you start but you don't know when you go fishing. Gest is not the solution.
I know some who decided to take a customers van and pick up a 30 gallon drum of GL5. Don’t ask me how. But the drum opened up when it fell over and emptied out in the van.
I feel this man the first time I started watching he's videos you are the shit lol I am a mobile mechanic and I started told the costumers once you see a issue whit a car turn your camera on from your phone and recorder just like if the issue its not occurring while we there so it helps
I had to tell some people that I don't work on cars anymore. People were getting my diagnosis and labor to perform the repairs free of charge. No more ex-girlfriend free of charge repairs or friends. I'm a do it yourself er. I've been working on cars for many years, I'm by no means a mastertech but I hold my own. I'm always learning and I dedicate a lot of hours to further my automotive knowledge. I was an aircraft parts technician for many years, but automotive repairs is a hobby that I enjoy. But, time is precious and people need to pay for the service.
It's bad here in western Pa. Too many guys are uneducated and enjoy working for free. Facebook groups are REAL bad. Anytime I see a post asking for recommendations in my field I turn the other way. When people are asking for recommendations what they're really saying is they want someone to do the job for free.
There's also a difference between not communicating a diagnostic fee and getting your ass kicked to the point you feel bad about charging a customer for 8 hours of diagnosing and giving them a break on half or a part of that fee.
Hello danner,i like your subject.you know in my country there are a shops only to hook up the scanner tool,reading codes for the customer and got paid.then the customer drive his car to the another shop to repair what i found and got paid again.and if the problem not solved,customer come back to the first shop to scan again and charge again.i think this is how it should be only for the customers who doesn't like to pay.
Customer Complaint: A little yellow light keeps coming on. (The Stop/Start system warning light illuminates intermittently.) Customer is unaware that their car even has this function. Break out the owner's manual, explain the purpose, and hope it sinks in (there's almost 30 minutes shot right there.) ME: Any related or unrelated work performed recently? Are any aftermarket devices in use when the issue occurs? Morning, noon, or night, car warm, cold, short drive, long drive, on and on. Maintenance history? Are you the original owner, were you driving or someone else? Any notification's from the manufacturer concerning recalls, campaigns, ect.? Performed an All Module Scan, and found 39 DTCs from 33 different modules. Suspect Uxxx codes as caused by Pxxx code/s Checked battery connections and circuit integrity, SoH & SoC, and Load tested. Research TSBs, software updates and recalls, none found. Pull up the SI for the offending DTC/s, read the theory of operation, setting conditions, check for the obvious first, get under the dash or hood, and break out appropriate diagnostic tools for the task at hand, test drive, inspect, try and reproduce and or confirm the issue/complaint. We're at another 30-45 minute mark, maybe an hour if I'm not too busy and feeling charitable, maybe even using the time as a learning experience for future reference. If I've done my job right, find and prove-out the cause, estimate, call the customer who is unreachable, send them an estimate via email and text (everyone has their Smarty phone in hand 24-7, except when it's me trying to get approval for a repair). Give them a few to reply, put shit back together, push or drive it out, bring the next car in for a repair (the stuff that pays the bills), then they call, whine about cost, need their car by a certain time, yeah yeah yeah, sorry, best I can do is tomorrow. Y'all get the picture :O)
@@ScannerDanner Yeah, the $6K X-Box with the $2,500/yr subscription, try explaining that to them. Besides most customers having no idea what all is entailed, can't blame them, somehow I think they think we do this for fun. Hang in there Dude, and thanks for sharing your knowledge and integrity!
Absolutely, should be a standard service call fee. Or mileage based. For example, I worked at a tire shop and our roadside tire service was $150 in town and increased with mileage if we had to go out of town
I got in trouble last year.. doing a confirmation road test and decided to swing through Taco Bell along the way. The customer saw his car in the drive thru, took a picture and then unloaded on my shop owner. My suggestion: avoid personal errands in customer cars
For sure, but in this case, the owner is my brother, and I just don't care 🙂 Especially when the customer isn't getting billed for every second I'm in that car right? I mean, if he was being billed like that, then they can have a complaint about it. Otherwise, I'm handling my business too while I drive the customers car to recreate an intermittent issue.
Hi sir I have been following ur good work,can u give me a help,I got a ford escape hybrid 2008,after timing it starts runs for 2sec and goes off and a red triangle appears on dashboard any help?thanks
Usually customers don't like when you road test their cars looking for a problem esp when going on a lunch run. And now that the gas is so high and customers will bring you the car to you on empty so you have to fill it with your money and expect for it to be gratis, UM no way we put gas in we get a receipt this is the responsibility to have gas for us to road test. Yeah lunch runs we frowned upon because people get the wrong idea that you are charging for that time but as you said we deduct that time and usually don't charge for all the time we spend in the intermittent problems. As long as you say you fixed it is good by me retired so all good.
I started to tell the story in here, but there was a tech/garage that got all kinds of negative publicity because the owner had a GPS tracker or left their phone in the car and they followed it to home depot and saw the tech coming out of the store with some personal stuff. This is absolutely 100% a legit "test drive" when the customer doesn't want to pay for the time to drive the car to get it to act up.
Years ago I did a transmission overhaul, job took me a week because I kept needing more parts and wrong parts were showing up. Customer called three times everyday wanting updates and my loser advisor couldn’t set him straight. My garage gave the customer a loaner, they have wheels, what are they rushing me….? Anyhow, the day I put it together and install the transmission my advisor keeps telling the customer just two more hours. When I drive the car out and start my post checks my (loser) advisor tells the customer the job is done. I took the car for lunch and got stuck in traffic on the way back. For an hour I’m dropping ass in the car, it’s bad, when I get to the garage the customer sees the car pull into the garage. They walk up with the advisor, wanting the car, they get it and are immediately hit with the smell of ass I had been dropping in the car for the last hour. I was pleased, don’t rush techs
If you ever worked at a high end dealership what customers do when in warranty, they bring the car in knowing you will not road test when it is snowing and getting a all wheel drive loaner because their car stays safe and they take the risk with your loaner. We at the dealership do see a pattern, never verify the concern. Surprising it never happens when there was never snow.
So, in the heavy truck industry, I don’t have a “scanner danner” I can pass off the hard jobs to. Most of the really tough electricall issues end up with a chassis harness being replaced because a short some where in 30 plus feet of harness with untold number of circuits in it. The manufacturer says to replace the harness. Oh, wait, there’s more than one harness. There’s also the abs harness,. Trans harness. After treatment harnesses. And I just found out the automotive hourly shop rate is higher than heavy duty shop rate, WHAT?!?! How i s that a friggin thing? We don’t have Snap on scanners with preloaded circuit connectors with pin values and specs for Peterbilt, Kenworth, and the other heavy manufacturers. If we had a vantage pro for the class 8 trucks, that would be awesome, we don’t, and won’t. Cummins Insite and Quickserve are pretty dang good but not on the automotive level. You guys are lucky in that instance. My main objective in troubleshooting is finding the resolution. Not changing parts until the problem goes away, that would get expensive very quickly. We don’t have someone we can pass it off to if swap tronics doesn’t fix it. We all keep known good sensor to try, but we can’t just swap and hope. In the heavy truck industry, you’d have the spot light on you pretty quickly if you tried that.
![No Start, No Crank - Suspected Bad ECM - [Auction Truck]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/hhbmJprhino/mqdefault.jpg)
![No Start, No Crank - Suspected Bad ECM - [Auction Truck]](/img/tr.png)
This is a huge problem at the dealership. As a master tech. diagnostic specialist you get one hour. One hour usually on a car that went to 3 shop because they didn't want to spend money at dealership. Then I get it do my basic diag in a car that apart in pieces with more problems caused then it originally had! Customer flips out says they aren't paying a penny over the 1hr labor and we are ripping them off! Then manager gets involved tells me to FIX it don't worry about time.
Then I get screwed after cars fixed 4-5 hrs later.
Dealer life sucks as diag guy best to stay a C tech bang out gravy work with no stress of electric and drivability problems.
I need to save this comment. This is 100% our field, not just a dealer. Big chain aftermarket places are like this too! Doing my best to make a difference. Thanks for sharing!
@@ScannerDanner ps. Love your channel and your name has come up at lexus corporate training center. The engineers love u! True story.
@@jasonstaub3045 wow, seriously? That's so cool man. Never would have thought. Thanks for sharing this too. Really means a lot
@@jasonstaub3045is it the training facility inNJ
It amazes me that people will drop thousands on a guess and balk at the idea of paying a couple of hundred to guarantee and prove it is repaired. The blame goes to the parts stores and large chain shops for their "free" diagnostics as well as the instant gratification people.
I agree and spot on. Communication is key.
The blame goes to us for allowing it to happen.
This full case study will be out next week. On the second day we were finally able to get it to act up and we fixed the problem. Be sure to like and subscribe and hit that bell icon to be notified for the upcoming case study. Thank you all so much! In the mean time, we have a new SD Premium video out today, so head on over and check it out www.scannerdanner.com
What scanner are you primarily using
@@jeffblackwelder6543 Snap-on Verus, Autel Ultra, Autel IM608, Bosch 525x, TopDon Pheonix and every one of these I would give my stamp of approval on.
Thanks Danner's. Appreciate the emphasis on "we don't work for free". I believe your videos have helped and will continue to change our industry. Communication/people skills is key with Mr or Mrs customer. Thank you!
Thank you so much
I appreciate you putting this video out! I have said it before and I’ll say it again, YOU are what’s right with this industry. There is not another trade or industry out there that doesn’t charge someone when they look at something or come out. We as a whole have created this problem. It’s amplified by the free “diagnosis” by the parts stores. And if the shops would still do their part the parts store issues would have mostly gone away. People would learn after they got it wrong that they are not providing any real value by scanning a vehicle. Dealerships and independent shops need to communicate to the customer what they can expect and what they cannot. Set the expectations so they are not surprised by a charge afterwards if they haven’t found the issue. Communicating what is not the problem really helps ease the conversation.
Thank you Scott
You hit the nail on the head Paul. Communication is key. I may over communicate with my customers but they keep coming back and are happy to have their vehicles repaired properly!
Ive recently just got promoted into a foreman/ manager position at my shop, ive been in this business for about 15 years and youve said it all man gotta be able to lay everthinb out to a customer and even more so when you do repairs on fleet companies the more info you can give and justify your time the easier it is to sell kore time and to keep that relationship on good terms 👏👍
This is exactly what I needed! I always feel weird charging people and not having an answer
Know how ya feel, makes me mad as heck not being able to duplicate/fix issues too!
Same feeling here brother but it also doesn't make sense to spend all day trying to fix a problem and not get paid at the end just because you couldn't fix it. It should be 50/50 when fault is not found and fixed.
@@abubakarisadiqueibrahim481 100%. I always end up knocking a bit off of my diag fee if I cannot find the issue. Just to be fair (I'm a mobile mechanic). But working for free is no option. I'm already losing on gas and time. Need something!
@@Ken-1 Yeah sure.
I wish service managers and advisors fully understood this. Some do, most certainly do not.
I work at a Chrysler dealership, customers are always coming in with multiple concerns such as 1: customer states transmission is slipping. 2: customer states ABS light is on. 3: customer states vehicle lacks power.
Now an experienced advisor would inform the customer that it would be at least 3 hours of diag time. If they end up all being related maybe not but most advisors will tell the customer 1 hour. ABSOLUTE BULLCRAP!! It’s hard enough that customers think you just plug in a tool and tell them what’s wrong, but now the guys that are supposed to be on our side are screwing us! 1 hour for 3 concerns? No. If you want to pay us flat rate you need to play by the rules.
I hear ya! :O)
ruclips.net/video/t1VzXXWUfqk/видео.html
Yeah I get that but if you're serious about getting paid you gotta draw a line in the sand. Either they pay you properly (for your time no more no less) or you're leaving, and tell them that. Don't take less. If my service advisor tells me that, I'm flat out saying I ain't doing it. Wtf they gonna do fire me? For what? Not working for free? Go ahead. I'll get another job by tomorrow and let the labor board know. Tell them that just like that man.
Very well said
I'm a customer who watches your videos and "knows things". 😁 I've got an ac problem in with a technician right now who I'm paying to diagnose an issue that's beyond my tools and knowledge. What's most frustrating is when I pay for them to tell me nothing new and nothing's changed.
They should state what test have been carried out and the results. Then that should give you a sense if they are even looking in the right direction or maybe get new eyes on the case.
@@DooMHaMMeR247 Well said
You are awesome man. You just helped me i was in that predicament thinking I had no choice n I had to work for free but not no more. I appreciate you greatly.
Paul I am a technician around your age, We must charge for our time. I would guess you have gone way above and beyond to help your customers out too. I would charge for labor time, diagnostic time, and even what we called "window time" when we had to go to a salvage yard/ parts store. when you talked about the doctor and his diagnostic time it reminded me of things I use to say. when a doctor is wrong with a diag. they will say "they are practicing medicine." The difference between a Mechanic and a Doctor is this, when a doctor misdiagnose some symptom they bury their mistake. When a mechanic makes a misdiagnoses he has to fix his mistakes! Love the videos Thank you.
I learned how to diagnose from you 17 years ago in your class. In that 17 years I learned I’m selling my time. Do they want to buy it?
17 years? For real? That is awesome, glad to see you here too my old friend
A trend that I've been seeing in the industry is that repair shops are claiming that a lot of their profit comes from the markup on parts. I think that's a backwards business decision. The repair shops should be charging for the skills and talent their technicians have. Parts changers have little, if any, diagnostic ability. It's almost like the technician who can trace an intermittent problem down to a corroded wire is demonized because he didn't sell any parts to make a repair. If we want to be parts salesmen, we'll go work at an auto parts store!
I agree, the people who take the time and develop the skills to fine the actual fault are often scolded for it. I worked at a few shops where the manager knew next to nothing about automotive repair, they were more or less a salesman. They were only interested in how many parts and services they can sell to a customer. The guy who finds the wire that is broken and can repair it is not as valuable to them compared to the guy who recommends swapping different parts and up selling extra services.
I know that exact feeling of being scolded for fixing a car with out new parts. At a previous employer, car was towed in from another shop because supposedly it needed a pcm and programming. The boss of course was excited for that. I got the RO, and after 2-3 hrs of fixing all the screwed up wiring the other shop loused up, the veh drove out perfectly fine under it's own power. My shop owner was livid that I fixed it with out the new computer. I asked him, "would you rather take $1800 and not fix the car, or the proper amount of labor time and have it fixed", he just said, "next time just do what you're told". ..... I laughed......
People hear I am an electrician and frequently they have electrical work they want done. Most of the time I just tell them I don't do side work, but some times I say no problem $100 and hour 4 hour minimum, I have had no one take me up on that.
Paul, understood that time is money. There are innumerable videos (South Main Auto, Pine Hollow Diagnostics) that have recounted expensive, ineffective repairs. I use the malaligned scan tool to at least give some insight before my car goes to the shop. There are a lot of untrained mechanics who charge for ineptitude.
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I admire your work and knowledge. I went into a different field because people would rather pay for things they want (rims, lift kits or fancy sound system or a quinceñera party), instead of things they really need (vehicle repair) My charge was 2 hours of initial diagnostics. 9 out of 10 would say: "no, that's too much, I already went to autozone and they say all I need is an o2 sensor"
Got so freaking tired of educating customers. Hope the world gets to watch this video. Thanks for everything my man
This is exactly why I've been just dealing with an intermittent no-crank issue. Some days it just doesn't want to crank, and the rest it's fine. I have done everything myself to diagnose, and it's either the ground or starter itself. It's been doing this for almost 2 years now.
I sent it to the shop, and whaddya know, by the time the mechanic got to it IT WAS STARTING AGAIN. Absolute money-pit of an issue if I let a mechanic try and chase this intermittent issue. This is why for some customers it *sucks* to pay for diagnosing intermittent issues.
Grab a 10mm (or appropriate), and loosen then tighten every ground strap, both ends...
Have you used jumper cables to starter from battery when no start condition? (ground and hot direct to battery). GL
ps. Had a merc that took me 3 days to diagnose/fix... was a relay as I recall.
An experienced diagnostic tech , will test appropriately for the system and one who uses a scope can detect poor circuits and components. With good data can make a call to fix an intermittent issue of a failing part/control circuit. JS
Also, where are you Matt? I'm retired and help some folks/friends and family out, if relatively local (1 in X chance), I'd be willing to diagnose without charge and fix, you buy parts and assist.
@@kennethhicks2113 Thanks for the offer.
The issue came back after over 2 months again. This time I checked nearly everything. New symptom being it cranks for a split second then no longer responds to crank signal. It did this twice this week. Both days split second crank then no response after.
Solenoid gets 12v every time key in crank
Heavy gauge hot always 12.3v
Voltage drops to 12.09 on the heavy gauge with key in crank
There is no voltage leaking into ground on the engine block
The only thing I haven't tried is bypassing the system with a direct jumper to starter (it's not easy setting alligator clips on blindly).
Seems to me it's been the starter the entire time? It's only about 3-4 years old, but I'm not sure what brand the previous shop installed in there.
@@TheGuccibane Based on how I'm reading what you wrote, key always applies 12V to solenoid and solenoid always outputs 12V with very little voltage drop. This tells me not much current output to starter and thus not enough power to turn the starter motor. Diagnosis/guess, bad starter or ground. Considering the difficulty of getting 12V to starter, use jumper cable from battery ground to engine block close to starter (you supply known good ground on starter).... if same measurements, bad starter. GL
This is something that used to chap me something fierce when I was still in this business. Why should techs work for free? No one else does. Some of what bothered me the most was some customers just had the attitude that well since my car is broke you have to fix it with minimal or no charge to me. Much time is spent now and has been for several years now, just finding wiring schematics, narrowing down the problem, before ever even touching the car. All of that takes time to do. I still wish this industry would do away with the flat rate pay system. Unfortunately, that is what has created all of the parts changers out there in my opinion.
Amen BROTHER! People absolutley need to be informed! I always make sure they understand what is happening. The more Educated they are the better they feel about moving on with the process!
Unfortunately it also comes down to alot of shop owners or service managers who also don't want to pay a technician for diagnostic time. Technicians are pressured so much to have an answer of what is wrong within the first hour diagnostic time, you get guys start doing guessnoatics in hopes to happen to fix the issue. Then when that does not work, the technician gets it in the neck because it does not fix the problem. The industry is getting worse when it comes to this and less and less people are wanting to get into the automotive industry. You make the same points I have been ranting on for years about the same things. I always appreciate your videos Paul, thanks for sharing all your k knowledge.
Good techs should be paid for their time!
I love your channel and always look forward to what is next. I am a retired autobody repairer and know exactly what you mean especially with intermittent electrical problems. I do want to comment on time charged for repairs. I absolutely agree one must pay for one's talent. It takes many, many years to be a pro at anything. Admittedly some folks never get better than average but charge the same and most times more because of time spent. A rookie may spend three days to find a problem whereas a pro may take a day or an hour because of their years of experience.( must pay for that talent). Regardless if we are talking about lawyers, doctors, mechanics, plumbers, etc there are great professionals and then there are those that barely pass. Every shop has its best mechanic and then the rest. I do prefer to pay the bigger buck for someone with years of experience. Rookies have to start somewhere and I don't mind a rookie working alongside a pro on my car or home etc. In collision repair or rust repair? We also have the real good pros and then the average joe. Yet the door rates are the same is my point. So charging is important but so is the level of the expert on the case. We all cringe at having to go to a dealer, however, if you get the "right" person, sometimes it is faster/cheaper because maybe the pro has experienced your symptoms before vs a private garage that has never worked on your particular vehicle and needs to "learn" from ground zero. This rant is not worth a dime, but it's free. TY
Great video brother you an your son have a blessed day
Thanx Paul.Yes its so difficult to find these intermittant faults and still charge the customer,Thanx for your input on this.
I completely agree with you, in Spain we have exactly the same problem, but much more serious since neither the bosses themselves value, neither the knowledge nor the time invested in training to make a good diagnosis, much less the clients when they spend hours and hours looking for a fault and avoid changing parts.
Pennsylvania is a beautiful place! Thanks for the video.
As a workshop foreman in a dealership most of my day is spent on diagnostics. I have made my service advisors watch several of your videos relating to this topic and after a couple of months they finally got it and things are running so much smoother. Managing customer’s expectations and giving proper detailed write ups on invoices,so when Mr customer comes back with a MIL on they have full documentation of what was fixed what code was stored etc, so you have to pay again cause it’s a different fault different job
Awesome! Thank you! Trying to help this field in any way that I can
100% , the doctor comparison is exactly right. They charge for every test they run , not even by the hour. Heck they charge you for just showing up and talking for 5 minutes 😵
They even charge for misdiagnosis and losing a patient
Just shared on my business page! Thank you for that understanding of needing to be paid for our time.
thank you so much!
Agreed 💯 SD. 💯. Train your customers, make sure your call is spot on. Make sure they pay what your time is worth.
I used a customers vehicle to test drive it while getting parts for another vehicle. Yet, you'd here ppl gripe that you were using their vehicle for free. Aggravating!!!
My wife works in insurance, she gets mad if she catches me taking customer vehicles thru the drive thru. I consider it a valid diag test. "Drive thru noise verification test"
Yes, charge for your time & diag. Great video as usual, thanks
I tell the customer up front what my average time spent diagnosing a vehicle is and give them a ball park to look at. I tell them it could be more or less depending on the problem. I also have them read and agree to terms and conditions I send them via email before going there. Part of the terms and conditions is I must be paid regardless if I find the fault or not or if a component needs to replaced and programmed at the dealer unless I say otherwise. I haven't had anyone complain yet.
perfect! Communication is the key
Nice video. I used my Verus lab scope and the knowledge I have learned from to trouble shoot my Aqua Hot boiler in my RV. The scope showed the glitch the volt meter just showed a small drop in voltage. It still was a hard call to make since the Webasto controller is a thousand bucks. Got a rebuilt one for half price and problem fixed. Thanks Paul for all your teaching and the people whining about you talking to much can go and kick rocks.
Thank you Cullen!
Really great PSA about diagnostic time.. yeah the educated customer knows your time isn’t free. Couldn’t agree more with that analogy on the doctor visit not finding anything, but you’re still gonna be charged, this is the exact same. Great scenery on that drive very lush .. but I’d expect that in PA.. I always find your commentary educational and witty.. I’m a DIYer and don’t just swap parts, I try to diagnose and solve problems.. but if I scan something and it shows intermittent I/O issues I’ll RR a part of it’s not too expensive, like an ABS sensor.. I won’t tell my buddy if I’m working on his car you need a $800 ABS module.. open communication is key.. I think customers will understand
Awesome video! 100% agree with you! You are the one that got me started in this business.
Thanks so much!
For me eating in the customer's car or using the customer's car for a personal errand is a no no…..
This is the one thing that sooooo many technicians in the field disagree with me on…. If I go for a road test, that's all I do, road test the vehicle.....
The car is only operated for diagnostic or troubleshooting purposes.....
I know guys are going to beat me up in the comments because sooooo many techs do it but it is just my view for staying professional
Nothing personal only professional...thanks for the video, keep them coming!!!
I wouldn't beat you up on that. The trade off then is you should be billing for every minute you spend in that customer's car. And if you say that is what I do, I have ZERO problem with that.
Certainly us eating in the customer's car does not come off as very professional and if that car was going back to that customer this same day, we would have an issue there.
@@ScannerDanner Agreed....and we are good!!!...just conversation amongst friends and technicians!!!
You're absolutely right about 9 out of 10 shops being nothing but parts changers. I work at a shop that takes in all the work that the other local shops and dealers can't handle. It really sucks when you get a vehicle after it has been to 3 other shops for the same issue. Half the time the vehicle arrives with the truck full of old parts, the vehicle is partially disassembled, and there's a whole slew of erroneous fault codes from the last guy unplugging stuff.
I agree. I work for a dealership and we get a lot of cars from the independent car lots or the buy here pay here lots and those "techs" at those lots and the chain shops can't fix the most obvious fault especially if it has anything to do with electrical work.
@@JD730 I think a big part of the problem is that most tech schools don't seem to teach diagnosis and they don't give their students real world problems to diagnose. I went to a pretty good school, but I still learned most of my diag skills by working in the field and seeking out information online. The case studies that ScannerDanner posts are way more informative than what I saw in school.
@SALEEN961 😂😂😂 "school" only teaches the basics, enough to get you an entry level job. I get a good laugh at people who think school teaches everything you need to know and will make you an expert
Well said mate - "communication".
Your right bro I do the same thing your time is money and if someone else fixes it cheaper and they mess it up then they call you then it's more money beside it's a convenients to go to their home to fix it then to take it to a garage and always get paid what your worth. Keep the good work up.👍👍👍
Hits home very hard Danner, Well said
I love what you say my biggest issue with running my own business but also being a tech. Being a mobile mechanic as well deff makes it interesting in charging as well. Also testing is a weird one for me
6:38 OMG that view is beautiful, i wish i had streets like that where i live
I took my truck to a shop recently to get a inspection and get my tail light wiring fixed. I knew what it was that needed fixed, I just didn't want to do it. I work 7 days a week and the last thing I want to do is work on my own truck in 100 degree heat. Here's how my bill totaled
Inspection- $12
Electrical diagnostic-$135
Labor for wiring-$65
Light bulb-$17.50
Ball joint replacement-$ 120
Ball joint labor-$275
4 wheel alignment-$135
Now after my tax I was out the door paying almost $700 for a ball joint, tail light wiring fixed, a bulb, inspection and alignment. Also I had to miss 2 days of work because the shop originally told me they would be done the day I took the truck there. I had to get ahold of the shop 30 minutes before they was to close and see what was up with my truck. Then they said oh well we was really busy today and wasn't able to get to it, so either you can leave the truck here or bring it back tomorrow. Well I told them to keep it and it ended up taking them 4 days to fix my truck instead of the 1 I was told. I had to miss 2 days of work. So not only was I out the 700 to pay the shop I was out my 2 days pay at work. How's that fair to me? I still got charged for telling them what was wrong with my truck, $135 for electrical diagnostic.
If a doctor does a MRI and finds nothing you still pay for the MRI. Same with any other tests, scans, or blood work. You have to pay even though nothing is found. If he gives you 2 aspirins and tells you to call him in the morning, you will be billed for the office visit and 2 aspirins and when you call him the next morning he will bill for another office visit.That said, every thing you test that IT ain't will lead you to what IT is. Process of elimination. NO DIFFERENCE IN HIM AND US. WE SHOULD BE PAID FOR WHAT WE DO. We should and can use his standard line "OUR TEST WAS INCLUSIVE, SO WE NEED TO DO MORE TESTS". This is exactly what we should be doing. Communicate with the customer, tell him what you didn't find and make a recommendation for more time or bring it back while it's acting up. {CALL ME IN THE MORNING} NO....N.. O.. No other profession gives away their time, we should not either.......
Brother didn't even stop at the stop !!!!! Great point vid.
Your point is 100% valid, but a lot of mechanics bill 2.5 hours for pulling a code with zero follow up, which gives real mechanics a bad name by affiliation.
Scanner danner you are the man!!
As I used to say on the hotline, "Reproducable is fixable" and "No brokie, no fixie."
and "Random sucks."
Great video as always
Working at several dealerships and shops over the years, the biggest hurdle was getting the"boss or service writer" to understand this concept. Those are the jobs I evacuated very quickly. Of course these employers loved that I could fix the problems other techs or garages but after getting multiple diag jobs in a week I usually got screwed on my hours. Oh well just a rant. The parts changers seem to get the recognition and pay and us diag techs get the crap end of the stick. Frustrating AF
100% spot on and is one of the greatest travesties of our industry
So I am no longer a mechanic and had stopped doing DIY for several years. But now I take care of my own cars and several others for friends and family. And let me say I agree with you. But my question is who pays for the parts cannon? Or for the shop that changes the oil and lets all the Freon out, AC worked when it went in. And did not when it left. Separate shop tested it charged it and no leaks. And I do understand the customer that comes in and says I have a miss change the coil. And does not allow diagnostic time. They should pay. But the tech should also communicate what he see's even in those circumstances.
Your point about communication is key. I would rather of had a tech call me and say hey I am an hour in. And we know it is not x or y we think it is B but could be 3 other things. And to diagnose all other options would take 4 more hours. Do you want me to replace B. And see what happens which may mean a return and more diagnostic time. Up to you mr customer. But that is not what seems to happen and this happens often. I truly believe in your training. I pay for it actually mostly because I have received so much value from the free stuff you do on RUclips. So yes I believe Techs should get payed for their services. But Techs and Shops need to get way better at communications.
I stopped taking my cars to shops because of several situations all with in a single year happening to me with several different shops. Oil change that dumped all the oil out with in 4 miles of leaving the shop, Another services that the air cleaner was left out all together and the air box was not even closed up. And Yes one case of me being that customer. I told them to change the clutch. the pilot bearing was bad but the left the old one in, never called me. 2 days later after picking truck up had issues shifting. pulled transmission pilot bearing was welded to the crank, had to put new crankshaft in. And had tires and breaks done. Lugnuts were not torqued down. Driving down the highway front wheel passes my daughter into the ditch. No studs left on wheel when done. That one is a bit of speculation it could have been over tightening as well.
Either I suck at picking Shops. Or there is a bigger systemic problem that really needs to be addressed. And not all these were same shops and not all same city. It can be expensive finding a shop you can trust.
Because of time issue i left this work i cahnged my line to factory automation.customer thinks they paid for fix the car not only for diagnostics never win this part with automotive work so ran away from it but i love this work as much as i can say.worst customer are who dont leave their car with you to work upon thats the most absurd thing to have.
that is why I watch you and many others!!
Next topic should be on what shops pay their techs. I’ve worked in a number of shops that their certified master tech can’t diag a car for crap or just goes straight to the computer and tells the advisor what’s wrong based on most common fault. And yet they get paid the “big bucks”. It also bugs me how the we the techs have not seen a pay adjustment based on cost of living for decades now. Years ago 26-30$/hr was considered pretty good. Now days that’s barely enough to pay for tools and everything else and yet 32$/hr is still considered high according to shop owners and companies. Such a pain to deal with.
Yes, we should learn to communicate well with the client from the first moment. If he doesn't like the deal, we don't waste our time and money. Greetings from Panama.
I think mechanics need to see this video, but I also think that customers would learn something by this video also. I went to a shop on the July long weekend to check a truck that was around a few different shops and they couldn't find the problem. I found the problem, shop owner starts bickering with me over my charge, after spending a couple of thousand dollars already between himself and the other shops he sent it to for my couple of hundred dollars to actually solve his problem. Sometimes people piss me off! Stay well everybody!
So so so, many times I've worked for free and I'm tired of that crap as well. I freakin charge every time now! Although I'm good at it, I hate wiring harness problems along with fuse block problems!
I dont even work for free for friends anymore. If i spend 2 hours i want 2 hours of work in return
Preach Brother!!. Preach….
WE DONT WORK FOR FREE
I always get the people who seem to not understand that it may take more than an day to diagnose an situation. They always seem to think diagnoses takes an hour and it's just an scan but they don't understand that you may have to scope the car run live diagnoses on scanner and all this can take time when your navigating the scanner waiting for loading times page to page. Or when scoping you may have to scope more than one sensore or part which takes time to reset scope up and settings. On top of that all the other test like block testing for compression or snap throttle testing when in live diagnoses on scanner. Just sucks when you have someone who wants there issue resolved but don't want to wait to get there car back so they take there car blow up the engine then there mad that they have to buy an new car
It blows my mind when one’s ask if I charge to diagnose? If the diagnosis goes toward the repair? These people are clueless to the cost of equipment, value of product knowledge and the value of my time!!!
When I’m asked those questions, I defer the work to someone else. Not the client I’m looking for. They’ll never value what I’ll do for them
Yes communication to the customer is very important
You don’t get a doctor visit for free. Facts 💯
We are the auto doctors so we are not free. I’m also tired of people thinking my time and skill is cheap because I’m a mobile mechanic. I’m a mobile technician not a tree shade diyer
Had an ac system diag a week or so ago, woman called me and asked if I could figure out what was wrong with her ac, I said I can take a look at it, but my rate for diag is 50 an hr, she knew full well before arrival, I gave her a little over an hr and diagnosed the problem, informed her what the problem was, asked if I could replace it on the coming mon, said yes, also asked if she could pay for it all mon, reluctantly said yes, and never heard from her again, now I know that's my fault, but I figured being that a friend referred her to me it wouldn't be an issue, on top of informing her the ac shop that just "replaced" a line, didn't replace anything. But no, I guess she felt she needed to get what she lost from the shop, out of me. From now on my diags will be paid up front or I'm not looking at it.
that's some b.s. right there isn't it? Lesson learned though, unfortunately
@@ScannerDanner it most certainly is, I appreciate all you do for the community, keep up the good work!
It Snap-On, Mac Tools and Matco Tools fault because they don’t sell magic wands and crystal balls. That’s what I think the motoring public thinks we have in our multiple tool boxes. They think we’re suppose to know the cause of every problem because we do work this everyday all day. They don’t realize every job is different. Oh, great video as usual.
One variable to keep in mind. If you work in a shop with a service advisor who is the middle person between the tech and the customer. In this case, communication is not just about a good or bad tech.
Great Topic there amigo.....too good to discuss here in the comments as I don't want to write a novel.
Exactly, Awesome a prominent industry person says this!
We recently had a customer with an Explorer who asked us to install an alternator. We asked her for diagnosis, she said that was a rip off to charge just for checking her car. Her car was charging and had a parasitic draw that kills the battery after sitting a couple days. She left angry that we wouldn't install an alternator.
This is our world, can't win them all.
@MPB Very true, the less they want to spend, the more they seem to expect.
👍 customers need to pay for diagnosis time or they will pay for a parts changer and it will end up costing more.
The only time I don’t expect to pay diagnostic time is if it is a warranty complaint. Then the manufacturer is going to be paying diagnostic time.
Many thanks Paul, I couldn't agree more.
It's a conundrum. Knowledge isn't action but knowledgeable people still need to get paid for their time (edit--their diagnostics). Mechanics are supposed to listen to the customer but a lot (?) of customers also throw curve balls. The mechanic has to start with the ABC's or they are setting themselves up for failure. It's fine to do what the customer says they want done with the mechanic's caveat of---OK, but I am charging you for it and I don't guarantee that is the fix e.g. throwing parts at it. Story--Neighbors son took their badly running car in. The mechanic pulled a DTC and replaced the CPS for $240. The car still wouldn't start and the mechanic told them they needed to unplug a relay, turn ignition on and then off, then replace the relay to start the car; the car was still barely running. Another shop said it needed a new transmission (edit---a new engine) to fix the problem. I pulled a DTC---bad CPS. The mom neighbor put in a new CPS and the car runs fine. I have a bad back so I can't do a lot, but I still have eyes. My two friends, who have tons of wrenching under their belts, and I went to get a truck one of them picked up for cheap because it would not start. After watching them for an hour trying to start it I walked over. Two wiring harnesses were unplugged. It started right up after plugging them in. What I am getting at is even the most cursory visual inspection can lead to a solution. Most people have no clue what they are looking at or for. I'm like, how can you not see something staring you right in the face? LOL. The Car Wizard has several videos where his customers have been bounced from shop to shop because they (edit, the shops) couldn't diagnose even the most basic problems---spark, fuel, air. Sad sigh. Industry full of incompetence and rip offs. Best wishes to awl! Edit---I have seen people who do something to their car (or nothing at all), try starting it, still barely runs, or not at all, and keep cranking it or starting and stopping it thinking it will run better after this ritualistic mumbo jumbo ...too funny! Also, Paul your one great dude. And peoples, show him the MONEY!
Very good point sir! Im actually fighting that same thing on my service vehicle. My jeep has an intermittent boost control circuit fault that puts it into limp mode at seemingly random times. When i get to a point of putting my scope on it, the fault isnt there. It acts up until i shut it off then it resets. I know a problem is there, but cant say for sure where the circuit fault is yet. Its the same for my customers. Im trying to find the fault and sometimes it takes longer than an hour.
Awesome Outstanding job thanks
i work full time at a fleet/municipality.... when i make repairs to help out friends, family, outside customers.... troubleshooting comes with prior authorization of up to 4 hours to look at it and if they have a problem with that they get to take their car to a parts changer and I refuse to look at it
Great information Paul. Just out of curiosity, if you have an intermittent problem that you cannot duplicate. Where do you draw the line? How much time? In the past I used to spend on and off several days trying to duplicate the customer concern. Driving down bumpy roads, shaking the whole truck around, wiggling all harnesses, etc lol. Now, depending on the issue, I’ve gotten to the point where I only spend a few hours before I just ask the customer to bring it back when the problem is more frequent.
Sometimes I just go over it quickly then give it back without a charge at all! Why? Because I do NOT want to own it. Once you charge them, it is now your problem. And yes, just tell them to bring it back when it is happening more frequently
Doctors suck now a day. I honestly truly feel that a really good technician is almost like a detective but has to have the iq level of a doctor if that makes sense lol love your stuff. I am constantly trying to learn and become a better diagnosing technician.
100% agree, most doctors are "parts changers" and the ratio seems to be the same as finding a good tech
Yep went to the doctor 4 times for the same issue and did the other 3 doctors take my money very quick, with the money for Prescriptions yes they did.
You were talking to me on this one Danner .
The problem is when the shop guessing and the customer has to pay for the consequences or when the customer thinks get code is the diagnostic. On electric problem you know when you start but you don't know when you go fishing. Gest is not the solution.
Customers thinking the code is diagnostics is autozone and other parts chain's fault for putting that in the customer's minds in the late 90's -2000's
I know some who decided to take a customers van and pick up a 30 gallon drum of GL5. Don’t ask me how. But the drum opened up when it fell over and emptied out in the van.
lol, well that was just dumb on their part
Ha, now that’s funny. Expensive lesson for the shop
@@mph5896 yep. He never used a customer’s car again for anything other than diagnostic’s. Very expensive lesson for sure.
I feel this man the first time I started watching he's videos you are the shit lol I am a mobile mechanic and I started told the costumers once you see a issue whit a car turn your camera on from your phone and recorder just like if the issue its not occurring while we there so it helps
Right-ON BRO...👊🏾👍🏾
I had to tell some people that I don't work on cars anymore. People were getting my diagnosis and labor to perform the repairs free of charge. No more ex-girlfriend free of charge repairs or friends. I'm a do it yourself er. I've been working on cars for many years, I'm by no means a mastertech but I hold my own. I'm always learning and I dedicate a lot of hours to further my automotive knowledge. I was an aircraft parts technician for many years, but automotive repairs is a hobby that I enjoy. But, time is precious and people need to pay for the service.
It's bad here in western Pa. Too many guys are uneducated and enjoy working for free. Facebook groups are REAL bad. Anytime I see a post asking for recommendations in my field I turn the other way. When people are asking for recommendations what they're really saying is they want someone to do the job for free.
There's also a difference between not communicating a diagnostic fee and getting your ass kicked to the point you feel bad about charging a customer for 8 hours of diagnosing and giving them a break on half or a part of that fee.
Absolutely
Hello danner,i like your subject.you know in my country there are a shops only to hook up the scanner tool,reading codes for the customer and got paid.then the customer drive his car to the another shop to repair what i found and got paid again.and if the problem not solved,customer come back to the first shop to scan again and charge again.i think this is how it should be only for the customers who doesn't like to pay.
I completely understand.
Customer Complaint: A little yellow light keeps coming on. (The Stop/Start system warning light illuminates intermittently.)
Customer is unaware that their car even has this function.
Break out the owner's manual, explain the purpose, and hope it sinks in (there's almost 30 minutes shot right there.)
ME: Any related or unrelated work performed recently?
Are any aftermarket devices in use when the issue occurs?
Morning, noon, or night, car warm, cold, short drive, long drive, on and on.
Maintenance history?
Are you the original owner, were you driving or someone else?
Any notification's from the manufacturer concerning recalls, campaigns, ect.?
Performed an All Module Scan, and found 39 DTCs from 33 different modules. Suspect Uxxx codes as caused by Pxxx code/s
Checked battery connections and circuit integrity, SoH & SoC, and Load tested.
Research TSBs, software updates and recalls, none found.
Pull up the SI for the offending DTC/s, read the theory of operation, setting conditions, check for the obvious first, get under the dash or hood, and break out appropriate diagnostic tools for the task at hand, test drive, inspect, try and reproduce and or confirm the issue/complaint.
We're at another 30-45 minute mark, maybe an hour if I'm not too busy and feeling charitable, maybe even using the time as a learning experience for future reference.
If I've done my job right, find and prove-out the cause, estimate, call the customer who is unreachable, send them an estimate via email and text (everyone has their Smarty phone in hand 24-7, except when it's me trying to get approval for a repair).
Give them a few to reply, put shit back together, push or drive it out, bring the next car in for a repair (the stuff that pays the bills), then they call, whine about cost, need their car by a certain time, yeah yeah yeah, sorry, best I can do is tomorrow.
Y'all get the picture :O)
100% spot on. The things people do not see or understand. "Can't you just hook up your little machine to tell me what's wrong?"
@@ScannerDanner Yeah, the $6K X-Box with the $2,500/yr subscription, try explaining that to them. Besides most customers having no idea what all is entailed, can't blame them, somehow I think they think we do this for fun. Hang in there Dude, and thanks for sharing your knowledge and integrity!
As a mobile tech do you also charge to go out to the shop/customer house with these gas prices goin up?
Who wouldn't?
Absolutely, should be a standard service call fee. Or mileage based. For example, I worked at a tire shop and our roadside tire service was $150 in town and increased with mileage if we had to go out of town
@@xephael3485 reason I’m asking because I just started doing mobile work and was wondering if it was a good idea to charge to mileage fee
@@oldmanriver8922 awesome I need to start charging a mileage fee then.yesterday I had a job 72 miles away and only charged for the initial repair
absolutely your prices should vary based on the cost of fuel
got it early on.
infrequent intermittents are infrequent intermittents FOR TECHNICIANS too!
9:23 nice suspense I thought he was gonna say unfortunately I hit the squirlle
Very well said
I got in trouble last year.. doing a confirmation road test and decided to swing through Taco Bell along the way. The customer saw his car in the drive thru, took a picture and then unloaded on my shop owner. My suggestion: avoid personal errands in customer cars
For sure, but in this case, the owner is my brother, and I just don't care 🙂
Especially when the customer isn't getting billed for every second I'm in that car right?
I mean, if he was being billed like that, then they can have a complaint about it. Otherwise, I'm handling my business too while I drive the customers car to recreate an intermittent issue.
Hi sir I have been following ur good work,can u give me a help,I got a ford escape hybrid 2008,after timing it starts runs for 2sec and goes off and a red triangle appears on dashboard any help?thanks
Usually customers don't like when you road test their cars looking for a problem esp when going on a lunch run. And now that the gas is so high and customers will bring you the car to you on empty so you have to fill it with your money and expect for it to be gratis, UM no way we put gas in we get a receipt this is the responsibility to have gas for us to road test. Yeah lunch runs we frowned upon because people get the wrong idea that you are charging for that time but as you said we deduct that time and usually don't charge for all the time we spend in the intermittent problems. As long as you say you fixed it is good by me retired so all good.
I started to tell the story in here, but there was a tech/garage that got all kinds of negative publicity because the owner had a GPS tracker or left their phone in the car and they followed it to home depot and saw the tech coming out of the store with some personal stuff. This is absolutely 100% a legit "test drive" when the customer doesn't want to pay for the time to drive the car to get it to act up.
I say one of 2 things... 1) Try to get a "free" meal from McDonald's OR 2) See if the dealership will fix it, for less... It works 100% of the time.
Years ago I did a transmission overhaul, job took me a week because I kept needing more parts and wrong parts were showing up. Customer called three times everyday wanting updates and my loser advisor couldn’t set him straight. My garage gave the customer a loaner, they have wheels, what are they rushing me….?
Anyhow, the day I put it together and install the transmission my advisor keeps telling the customer just two more hours. When I drive the car out and start my post checks my (loser) advisor tells the customer the job is done.
I took the car for lunch and got stuck in traffic on the way back. For an hour I’m dropping ass in the car, it’s bad, when I get to the garage the customer sees the car pull into the garage. They walk up with the advisor, wanting the car, they get it and are immediately hit with the smell of ass I had been dropping in the car for the last hour.
I was pleased, don’t rush techs
lol
If you ever worked at a high end dealership what customers do when in warranty, they bring the car in knowing you will not road test when it is snowing and getting a all wheel drive loaner because their car stays safe and they take the risk with your loaner. We at the dealership do see a pattern, never verify the concern. Surprising it never happens when there was never snow.
that is some real b.s. right there huh? crazy stuff
So, in the heavy truck industry, I don’t have a “scanner danner” I can pass off the hard jobs to. Most of the really tough electricall issues end up with a chassis harness being replaced because a short some where in 30 plus feet of harness with untold number of circuits in it. The manufacturer says to replace the harness. Oh, wait, there’s more than one harness. There’s also the abs harness,. Trans harness. After treatment harnesses. And I just found out the automotive hourly shop rate is higher than heavy duty shop rate, WHAT?!?! How i s that a friggin thing? We don’t have Snap on scanners with preloaded circuit connectors with pin values and specs for Peterbilt, Kenworth, and the other heavy manufacturers. If we had a vantage pro for the class 8 trucks, that would be awesome, we don’t, and won’t. Cummins Insite and Quickserve are pretty dang good but not on the automotive level. You guys are lucky in that instance.
My main objective in troubleshooting is finding the resolution. Not changing parts until the problem goes away, that would get expensive very quickly. We don’t have someone we can pass it off to if swap tronics doesn’t fix it. We all keep known good sensor to try, but we can’t just swap and hope. In the heavy truck industry, you’d have the spot light on you pretty quickly if you tried that.