@@evo3481 I wasn't saying to give Elise any of Broodmother's abilities, I was commenting on the disparity in character fantasy between two spider characters. But if we're on the topic, we have the MR version of Sunfire Cape that can do the Earthshaker thing passively, albeit not instantly. We also have three champions off the top of my head that would directly benefit from her having more spiders (Aurelion Sol, Senna, Thresh) and we even have Smolder that with his Q splash could farm stacks at ridiculous speeds mid-late game. Broodmother's swarm ability specifically is countered much more easily in League without having one dude that deletes you instantly for daring to not ban him lmao
Or Broodmothers webs. They're one of my fav aspects of her kit as it chmages how you (as an enemy) interact with the map. Plus it just has a nice spider vibe
@@EebyDeeby515 Oh yeah, the webs are super rad, but I refuse to entertain the idea that Riot could properly balance Evelynn's permanent stealth roam and Kayne's free wall walking in one ability as a basic ability, the ult would probably just immediately destroy a tower from anywhere on the map on a one minute cooldown if that's considered basic ability tier lmao
I was an Elise one trick for 2 years. I love her This video sums up exactly what her problems are. She feels outdated, one dimensional, and other champs do her job better. A midscope update would be enough to make her good again. Sadly, I think Riot lowkey forgot about her ever since Evelynn rework came out. She replaced Elise entirely: lore wise, being the sexy femme fatale, AP female assasin jungler, and for God sake they're names are even similar. The only difference is early game Elise beats Evelynn, but then mid/late Evelynn does her job 10x times better.
evelynn is also easier and safer to use. her stealth makes it easy to move around the map and put pressure on your opponents to use control wards to prevent your ganks. evelynn is also non commital, as in if the one you're ganking suddenly gets backup or fights back, you can simply run away and not engage, whereas elise, if she dives in, she has to burst the target down or die trying
I dont really think its even fair to compare them as champs they're both AP Assasains but playstyle is completely different Eve is passive for early game and only engages when she can clean up kills. Elise forces plays and is very aggressive and can dive towers, looks for invades etc. they have completely different power spikes and different playstyles really.
@@turkishgrandmaexplode evelynn is still way easier to 1v9 with elise is extremely reliant on teammates after 20 minutes as you're just hoping they can close the game out fast with the lead you gave them because you're otherwise just a stunbot. you should not be locking this champ below diamond at all for this reason
giving elise the naafiri thing with more summons= more damage thing a lot of sense since you are losing that damage everytime you swap and it also puts a lot more importance to your ability rotation in human form in order to get the max amount of spiders
i think she should have minions in both forms. make her W cost actual minions but make it stronger and faster. maybe even controllable little exploders. Q in human form cause her spiderlings to jump onto enemies instead of spider form q.
What I noticed about some of the newer champs is that they have usually a a bit flatter curve in terms of scaling than some of the older ones. Asol and smolder have strong late games but their early game is at least somewhat save, while briar and naafiri have tons of scaling to compensate for their classes usually performing worse in late game team fights. The separation in early and late game champs isn't as strict anymore, and many champs feel probably more forgiving than her. I mean, heck, even belveth, despite her infinite scaling, does rather well in the early game, although that might be more because she is 200 years.
well Belveth's scaling is also more of a red herring in her kit, Yes she does technically infinite scale but she's technically weak in teamfights cause her damage is single target, she's a hypercarry so she's also very weak to getting focused down, essentialy her kit Needs her to do a lot of things to reward her with infinite power and in order to even get to that late game power fantasy she needs to be able to snowball (AKA have a viable early/mid game) and the reason why the separation of early and late game champions is far less noticable is that Riot realized traditional early game champs were starting to fall behind with the game becoming way faster and finishing earlier than their powerspikes, so they had to flatten the curve to allow lategame champs to Ever hit their spikes at reasonable times, Make them spike earlier, make their spikes weaker and distribute some power to their early so they can better survive the most important part of the game (The start)
If I may, I would like to add that some old champions also have a flatter scaling curve today, so it's more a general issue than a specific champ issue. For instance, Lee Sin I remember in S8-9 used to be absolutely useless at some point in the game regardless of how fed he was, but nowadays with decent items he can still be a lethal threat for carries even in the very late game. Currently I am learning Jarvan 4 which is supposedly an early game gank oriented champion aswell, but his fighting power feels quite constant through the game, I'd even argue that at 1-2 item powerspike he can outscale some champions. I think what makes a champ scale or not is how well his kit handles teamfighting, whereas before season 11 some champions would straight up have bad combat stats that would cripple them regardless of how much mobility they had. You were forced to build tank items to end your build so at least you could be beefy enough to provide some value, or pray that you could trade your life to kill a carry.
@@thomasb5307 there are essentially two kinds of scaling: number scaling, and conceptual scaling. Number scaling is, well, better numbers over the course of the game, while conceptual scaling is how well the champ works over the different stages of the game (in what fighting scenarios does he work the best). Jarvan the forth has the advantage of having a amazing team fight ult for isolating some enemies and then letting the allies focus them down with tons of aoe damage. And because the ult is independent of his numbers, he "scales" well into the late game regardless of how the rest of his kit might look. Briar has some of the most ridiculous scalings in the game, but her kit works really at its best in duels or small scale skirmishes due to being a drain tanker that is mostly single target. Her number scaling essentially compensates for her theoretically poor conceptual scaling.
To be fair a adc shapeshifter would be similar to aphelios. Different guns to keep the adc. A 2 mode maybe, sniper into dual wield. Sniper to zone and damage or poke safely, dual wield to execute while losong range.
I used to main Elise when she first came out. I played her top lane because of the % HP damage, she was a tank eater. After they refocused her for jungle, she never felt the same.
Basically: A long time ago, she was broken. She had a stun, substantial assassination power, some moderate sustained dps and the ability to freely remove tower aggro. Now, everyone has that on their Q, basically. The turret aggro thing is probably still in the game, because she's so outclassed by much more cohesive and well designed kits, so she doesn't even get the Riot aggro over what they went to lengths to prevent other (especially newer reworks) from doing.
"everyone has that on their Q" lmao most pisslow take ever. Name any champ that has stun/assassination power/dps all in one single Q. Actual low IQ comment.
Her scaling is the biggest problem. While she retains her old power in early game, her late game is really weak. This is important because comeback mechanics are so strong right now. She still has to go through her whole combo to really one shot people while a lot of modern assassins just need 1/2 their kit to do so. Even then, her full combo may not even get the kill if she is not fed enough. If your early game was all about giving your laners kills and they screw up, you can't solo carry anymore. They need to add some aspects to her kit to make her scale better, like making cocoon targets take more damage, make skittering frenzy heal more or just up the scaling numbers on her base kit
Unlike most assassins, Elise does not have both effective target selection and escape tools. While rappel offers a lot of flexibility, it's very high CD, and she will need to either walk her way in or walk her way out. Which means her combat pattern is more straightforward than most assassins, and she will need to take more damage compared to most of them during a fight. Divers are classified as champions that go in, take someone out, and then fight to the death. This is not too far from what Elise does, except she's squishier than most AD divers because of the AP bruiser item issue. Similar to lee sin and rek'sai (both divers), it's difficult for elise to assassinate anyone late game unless they face-check her or run at her or one of her teammates. From season 2 up until seasons 8-9 or so she has always built offtank (magic pen and health were her most important stats) and sometimes every supportive items, until the meta shifted and the need to force an early game win through sheer damage eclipsed the need to be useful in mid-to-late game fights.
"Champion that gets power/feature crept by the latest gameplay changes and champion releases, requiring an emergency rework or otherwise buff but not getting one for years after they've already been pushed out of the meta"? Many such cases. Elise has been one of my favourite designs both character and kit wise, having a clear distinction between control mage and assassin, with the satisfying fluidity of being able to control when you transform and having abilities between the forms' kits enable each other (human Q %current HP damage allowing spider Q to gain %missing HP damage faster, human E stunning for easy and free DPS in spider form with W and Q). She used to be an easy answer to late game junglers and comps and fit in well with a lot of your own comps despite her arguably very basic abilities on each form's kit. Nowadays, with how easy leads and gold are to get, and items like Serrated Dirk giving insane early stats, she just feels straight up bad, especially being an AP assassin (or bruiser if you fancy that), as AP item balance is super fragile. AD champs have the benefit of picking from AD + lethality, AD + crit, AD + health, AD + CDR, AD + armour/MR, or building tank items without losing much damage. AP champs have AP + pen, AP + haste, or AP + health, and that lack of choice feels REALLY bad on a crept-out-of-meta champ like Elise because the less her kit design contributes to her power, the more item reliant she gets, and her losing a shit load of AP or health because a Riot needed to slap down an HP stacking mage, or some other item abuser like Brand and Zyra. It shows how terrible her state is when we've been in an AP jungler meta for a split and a half and she's barely seeing a rise in pickrate (I think she gained like .3%? It's still abysmal compared to the Brand and Sejuani you'll see almost every game.) Early game champions (as in champions designed SPECIFIALLY to have a strong early game) feel like they're a dying breed because there's just so much damage and stats in the game now that even a Heimerdinger, Veigar, or Jax are strong at 1 item now. I mean, hell, the premier late game mage from the old era, Vlad, is strong in early game right now. It just makes me super sad that Riot is obsessed with the 20 minute meta and doesn't invest in champions that won't generate skin sales or make epic proplay moments (despite that being the thing Elise used to do anyways). I really wish Riot would take the easy way out and issue referendums and Q&A with champion main communities to best determine how to handle their champions balance becuase as of right now , even the really smart players who know exactly what's wrong with a champion or can list all their bugs by heart are just outright ignored by Riot while they push their own clearly out-of-touch visions (see: the latest shitshow with K'Sante, the incoming rework being very clearly toxic and the wrong direction for the champion, all clearly outlined and decried by the K'Sante mains, and Phreak or Phroxon just says there is no war in Ba Sing Se...)
I think a mid-scope update, like how you mentioned that could turn her into a bruiser, would be a very good idea. Elise has a sustain effect in her spider form on her auto attacks; I think making it scale with bonus HP rather than AP would help, and having her spiderlings apply on-hit effects (probably with 50% reduced potency) instead of spell effects would help too, or maybe having a gimmick that allows her to summon more spiderlings in combat. Fun fact: Naafiri's dogs' attack speed scales with 100% of Naafiri's attack speed, but Elise's spiderlings only attack as fast as her ranks in W. That definitely needs to be changed if Elise is to be a bruiser
Range Form: Battle Mage, slowing them down and keeping them away from escaping your webs Melee Form: Bruiser, you have come to close to me now. fight fight fight fight bite bite bite bite.
She on my list of champions that in theory would be right up my alley but I never actually play. I'm a top lane player so I've always wanted to see her go up there as a sort of ap bruiser but a minion focused caster type would also be cool. My suggestions are increase the spiderlings, change her human W completely (not fun or interactive to use or play against), increase her self healing, make human Q feel like an ability, give her higher base stats, lower her early level ability scaling but have them scale harder with levels, make her spider E feel more intuitive to use and reward her more for using it on enemies.
I have a lot of success playing her bruiser top lane. Her lane bullying pressure is pretty substantial. I would say a weakness of hers is fighting un-interactive top laners such as a kayle or nasus, but if you capitalize on the early game weakness of those types of champions easy snowball lane and swap the build path to assassin mage. The most successful way of play for me has been go in with the mindset of bruiser and make changes based on game state and other factors.
@AvalenFrost I've been testing a lot of different builds over the changing seasons atm the strongest still is her usual assassin roots with electrocute lichbane rush. Bruiser I either go grasp or comet. Grasp I play the early game like ad nidalee top transforming for max stack advantage. Comet allows you to play the early game more aggressive your spiders refresh comet quickly. Items om bruiser build are a mix of whatever you need build similar to rumble. I notice I haven't said any actual items because I change the build up so frequently 😅 I recommend looking up my account and picking a build that I've done in the recent past that suites your style best.
Wish she could be more like broodmother from dota 2, it's the only reason i really play it lmao, the fantasy of being a scary, cute-ish Wolf spider surrounded by webs and threatening ANYTHING and ANYONE within it's territory while summoning waves of spiderlings to help her is very appealing to me, like, really, i just wish broodmother was in league, and elise in dota 2, broodmother is just WAY more unique and fun and would perfectly fit the jungle role, being able to freely traverse terrain with it's webs and do objectives with the spiderlings, WHY GOD, WHY MUST I PLAY DOTA 2 ONLY TO ENJOY A SINGLE. SPIDER. CHARACTER. AAAAAAA
She used to be somewhat similar. BM falloff late game but can absolutely dominate mid game. Elise used to dominate early game but now she can't even do that. Now early champions have too much stats Elise can't reliably kill them to get a lead and you know what happens if an early champion can't win the early game. Not to mention Rito has been gradually shortening the game for many years and with the late game coming quicker, people just wait for the early phase to be over to get back.
Good video. The question really comes down to: why pick her ? Almost everything she does another champion does better. There are better divers, assassins, stun bots. Elise in 2024 simply has nothing which is ironic since she is a shapeshifter.
as someone who played elise on launch and into season 3-4-5 she was the one champ I was able to carry with, and felt good about it and learned and mastered, even getting plat and diamond players (very high at the time) to help me get better, I feel her jungle clear speed is the only thing she needs, it feels bad i ganked all 3 lanes, cleared my jungle and hybrid-ap shyvana out here doing the most.... (or who ever) and don't get me wrong i'll play briar, kayn, hec, but i miss elise
Honestly shapeshifters in general have somewhat got screwed by the impact of newer champions in league. In the past Shapeshifters where the champions who have more abilities overall (if u ignore swapping it's 6 to 4) meaning they burst better or are more flexible than most champions. But then you look at newer champions and a large number of them straight up reset their abilities with minimal effort effectively giving them infinite abilities so long as the conditions still fulfilled or just have more abilities in general through some mechanic & still get their ultimate. as nowerdays they're fighting with things like aphelios, hwei, k'sante, viego, samira, pyke.
They could give Elise a great niche by replacing one of her boring abilities (Spider W/Human Q) with that AoE spiderweb thingie you mentioned at the end, with the only effect applied to enemies being 'grounded' to simulate being "caught in the spider's web" or whatever. IIRC only Cassio and Singed can apply Grounded, it would be great to get another user of it to help with all the movement/dash creep. Imagine if Cocoon could hit an additional target or do more damage or have an aoe slow when used on a target inside the spiderweb ability? That would help Elise be suited towards "anti-mobility" like how Vex was supposed to, but it makes much more sense on a spider than whatever shadow yordle thing Vex is supposed to be.
Yet another grounded/stun ability isn't going to do anything. What it needs to be is something like a 3-5 second sticky wall that you have to do damage to to get past/knock down. Imagine simply walling off the drake pit for 3 seconds, and slowing enemies if they touch it. If she had a unique ability that reflected the problem what spider webs cause to adventurers, traditionally (making a maze out of an area), then she would have great value in matchups.
Well that aged badly, her update with the new season made her incredibly popular and rather strong. Deserved though, she was so long in the gutter - it's nice to see her shine again
I feel like one of the things that holds Elise back is her fantasy. Compared to other champions, her spider queen fantasy is soo simple; she can't apply actual poison even if she's supposed to be a venomous spider, she doesn't really plays around webs and her spiderlings are passive damage that while are useful, don't feel impactful or make you feel like you're a spider queen. Compared to other femme fatales like Evelynn and Zyra, her fantasy feels really barebones; Evelynn stalks her enemies, seduces them and then unleashes hell on them, hopping to the next victim afterwards, Zyra builds a network of plants that makes you feel like you're controlling the earth and dominating enemies with your thorns. Elise just makes you do her combo and only use rapel to pursue, dive or escape enemies. I don't think her kit is bad and her being a shapeshifter is the strongest part of her identity, but i hope riot gives her more power to match how she's depicted in lore.
I have an idea to make her feel useful particularly in grouped situations Rappel drops a spider web that reduces movement speed where she lands or where she uses it (not sure yet) which reduces enemies movement speed and maybe attack speed by a scaling amount. Could also be a very quick snare (not stun). The range of this scales with levels in the ability. This could give her a bit of engage (if it lands where she lands) or a bit of disengage (if it lands where she uses it) Rappel in, use Zhonyas, hope your team kills them It’s not the best ability, but as E is leveled last, it gives her an option late game
Maybe give her a more significant heal on her 'Q', and make her 'W' reset it's duration and give even more attack speed when she kills anything. That'll make her essentially have more damage, simulate being a bruiser basically. And the attack speed thing will increase her clear speed in an interesting way.
I recently became an Elise enjoyer, and I found great success with her in the gutter ranks I play in because I have no time or love for sweating my ass off. I feel like a midscope update that focuses on giving her a bit more versatility and a few more ways for her spiderlings to contribute to her gameplay would feel excellent. As it stands, her spiderlings feel more like an afterthought most of the time outside of the first clear, when I'm using them to absorb camp aggro. I also think that'd make for some interesting potential for AP bruiser builds, allowing Elise to take slightly longer fights in spider form after her engage for those mid-late game teamfights.
To preface, I am not saying to do all of these. IMO these would be effective ways to increase different parts of her gameplay. - Increase base dmg for her abilities for early to mid game effectiveness when ganking. - To make her better late game, increase the AP scaling on her abilities. - For jungle clear, increase her spiderling dmg and attack speed boost from W. (IMO this would be the most useful thing to give her a leg up) - To make her more effective in a team fight, reduce the CD of her Rappel and add a dmg reduction effect when landing. Can also up her human W dmg or change it.. Rappel CD is way too long.
One thing that was a charm of malzahar pre-rework 2° rework was having his voidlings to summon other voidlings, and soo on. By the late game and enough Ability haste, you could swarm a champions with 10 + voidlings. Riot removed this beloved mechanic and i sthill miss it. If they could implement such a change on Elise like, " Every time a spiderling attacks one stunned or poison target it summons another spiderling , your Q aplies poison on spider form" you be such a good way of making her like a sustained DPS, while giving her a gimmick of having an army of spiders.
I am a half casual, half competitive League player nowadays, and I love her in ARAM. I always make sure to grab her on that map for how much of a menace in annoying people with her spiders, her damage, and her escape tool. She used to be the more popular jungler in the 2010s and somehow the times caught up with her. Still cool to me since I would be able to pick her more often. 😅
in their pursuit for diversity in the jungle, they ended up forgetting the older champions that excelled specifically in the jungle and simplified it so more champs could join. by simplifying the jungle, Elise's niche with her early dives, amazing sustain and scary early deteriorated in popularity because most will outscale her by the 20 minute mark
I miss the years when jungle camps were more than just different skinned minions and actually posed a threat, and they didn't allow literal squishy mages with no survivability like Brand to be one of the fastest jungle clearers.
It isn't camp weakness that makes brand fast, it's the fact his abilities have 200%+ damage modifiers to camps. Mages like Brand and Zyra are being brute forced into the role by the balance team with jungle modifiers. If it was only the fact that camps are weaker, you'd see a much more diverse cast of mages than that the few that are being forced in.
I believe Elise's a rare case, where she's not bad, but needs help, and also because she could be godd candidate for BOTH a touch up or a complete VGU, both could work out, depending on how it's done.
I main Elise in mid lane. There’s some tougher matchups like Xerath and Orianna who just poke me out of lane. They play too far back and it’s hard to land a stun combo. If anything, a buff to her early human form damage or more healing on spider form autos would help compete in lane. She also struggles to clear waves as good as other mages who can spam their main abilities. Elise’s human W is the only AOE ability that effectively clears minions, but it has a somewhat long cooldown and it’s somewhat unreliable for last hits. Building Luden’s helps with this some. An upgrade or buff to human W would help her clear minions or jungle camps a bit faster and put her back into the meta.
Early on you asked ‘so what happened to Elise?’ My first thought was “nothing…that’s the problem”. And the rest of your video confirms it. The game has evolved and she’s one of the champs that hasn’t kept up. It wouldn’t take a lot for Riot to help Elise. Her design really needs no change… give her an A Sol style update.
For a bit last year, she was not only meta but a dominant popular pick. But I definitely don't see her much now, and I didn't see her much before her recent 15 minutes of fame. I've always felt she was clunky with her descent - she should be able to land anywhere in her range from up there, even with no target to descend upon. That would be a huge quality of life change for her and make her feel nice.
I'm not sure how Riot would "inspire" of this, but I always thought that Riot got a bit inspired off broodmother from dota2. So here are few of the things she can do. This is in no way me saying that introducing some of these would help. 1. The main mechanic of broodmother is her spinning webs. She can make basically lane wide areas of web and can have whole lot of them across the map (the duration isn't limited but the amount). She runs like on crack over them, kind of similar how skarner could with his spires. It does not increase damage, just speed making her a menace at rotating to different lanes out of combat. 2. The way she summons spiders is actually through kills. In a way stacking infinitely them with every single kill with an ultimate because she lays eggs in her opponents. Albeit in dota2 because of its RTS nature the summons are very often used for scouting and/or discount warding tools here they could probably still work as something more similar to naafiri packmates or yorick ghouls if they weren't braindead and wouldn't push lane after yorick doesn't micromanage every single one of their movements. I'm not a game designer but if her defining core gameplay is focusing on killing rather than objectives, then shifting her power budget into essentially being able to play river elise through increased movement speed on her selected areas, and also making her able to build up an absurd amount of spider army with each kill would allow her to be the modern snowballing champion. I am spitballing though, I am not an Elise player so said players would probably hate it.
Honestly one thing I think could help with the snowball nature of League would be to increase the map size. Add a few odd jungle camps to the sides that open up after say, 15 minutes or something. This way there'd be more gold and space, and I wouldn't have to be afraid of the enemy team's 4 assassins when I try to go and catch the sidewave that's about to crash.
Yay, a Elise video :D, even if is about why she dosen't get enough love. Im happy any time she gets some attention. I OTP her quite hard, literally i just play Lol with friends and for about 3 years, i haven't played anything that is not elise, dosen't matter the Line. Yeah, its quite sad to have a champion full of bugs, outdated, with minimal skins while having 11 years, with more than 20 consecute nerfs and never in history i can say she did get a buf, until some days ago, and still wasn't a buff, it was just a (oh hey you guys we promised a buff to her 2 years ago and we have been prosponing that multiple times, here i fixed 2 bugs that we promised to fix more than 5 years ago, have some less HP on every spiderling).Also she has with no debate the wost attack hability on all League, her human Q, that deals even wost damage that her auto for the price of 20% of her mana.Ah yeah, probably she gots the worst auto in the game too, almost 3 seconds per auto. Ah, yeah and she gots the worst scaling of any champion so far, even declarated by Riot staff at this point. One thinks for the worst scaling in all League she would have the best Start, is the only reason why even playing her, but no, she can't 1vrs1 more than 90% of jungle pull at start. And eveythime a complain ios made of her state or that she needs to be in meta you will read comments of (well, she was meta 9 years ago, for a whole uptade, so she dosen't need to be in meta again) xd. Still im gonna still otp her, love her Ctrl 4 spider laugh so much. But i rlly hope she one day gets good play rate numbers, for all mains of her loves that she is in a niche, 11 years in that state is way too much for any fandom. (Update) Yeah true, we loss our only youtuber OTP 3 months ago or so He stopped playing Lol. And the other guy otp on youtube the people on reddit recommended was asian and stoped at the same time playing. So, we are not just starving, we are bones on a poll by now.
I play her. She's insane, very versatile. As an assassin she slaps hard, but she can also be played kind as a bruiser with Riftmaker, and it also plays really nice. Tank Elise is usefull, sometimes i push into this build if my damage proves irrelevant that game.
I feel like she needs some modernisation, i play Elise quite a bit. She can benefit from reworks or buffs in: 1. Making her q a point and click/skillshot dash, this is so that she can get over small walls making her clear better 2. She needs more range on spider form, make it scaling everytime u level r 3. Improve her clear, maybe reduce w cooldown or increase monster dmg
I think a buff in her W in spider form would really benefit her, because it's not very useful to have a dps boosting tool in a champ focused on burst. I would add a passive where each attack in spider form heals her a fix amount based on her max hp, and when the ability is activated it heals you more based on your missing health + a little bit of scaling based on your bonus health. This way insted of defaulting into a just burst build of big ap items you could build battle mages items giving her a pseudo-diver or even tank shreder role
lise was a legendary playmaker back when she could go tank/bruiser and they gutted that. her kit deserves to be viable with at least riftmaker/liandrys build
As a masters elise main, I miss crocodile mains aswell. When someone plays him, it's always a first timer thinking it's a good idea to pick him because of the synergy and end up inting the game.
I will drop it here: Q: Increase mouse pointer detection range, and prioritize enemy target. Also, Elise should move towards the location of Q when pressed. Add AP% scaling normally instead of uga bunga petty current/missing health % bullshit, those mechanisms shouldn't be on assassin kits. W: Human form, spider bomb navigatable similar to Neeko W. Spider form should grant movement speed when attacking a target, and grant longer attack speed buff, cooldown reduced when spider summon hits a champion. E: Spider form, increase range by 150 range, and fasten animation of landing when selecting a target. Human form, when the cocoon hits, reset the R cooldown. If Nidalee can have the mechanism on Q, Elise should have too. R: Spider form, spiderling should keep attacking the enemy for up to 3 seconds even if Elise is running away or left the combat range.
She used to be one of the strongest duelist junglers in early levels. Between kiting, the low q cooldown in w, and the execute damage on her e she was super strong early.
I used to play her because of her Blood Moon Skin. Lol. I stopped playing jungle in general when I realized Jungle was heavily decided by fan favorites like Lee Sin, Jarvan IV, Kha'Zix who go long periods of time without any actual nerfs. Sooooo I play ADC, the role that gets frequent nerfs lol.
I've been a huge Elise enthusiast since season 6, and she always hovers my most played champs in almost every season. Although most points here make sense, I highly disagree with Elise falling off. With how much power items have in modern League, no champ falls off in terms of damage. Elise can one tap anyone just as fast at 1 item or at 6 items. The issue isn't the damage, the issue is the playstyle. Elise is a predator jungler (don't confuse the term with top laners, please), she doesn't want to sit back and farm, she doesn't like invading for camps or full clearing 6 times in a row. Her playstyle rewards early action, early aggression and small fights, with as few people as possible because she's entirely single target damage (yes, her human w is technically aoe, but it can only hit one very small place so it's single target unless people are extremely bunched up). The problem with Elise is systematic with the game. Riot changed the way jungle ganks work by drastically reducing how much exp a jungler gets from lane minions, so getting a gank off and helping your laner push a wave gives you (and I mean you individually as a jungler, the gank benefits mostly your laner) a lot less benefit than just full clearing. This makes camp cycling a lot more valuable and that plays completely away from Elise's strengths. On top of that, it took Riot years to notice how broken Mercs were vs ap champs, and Hexdrinker/Maw is a free win ticket vs a burst assassin with no innate way of reducing or removing shields or have magic pen outside of some items. Her kit is still good, it's relatively simple but has a huge skill cap, but her playstyle is extremely unrewarding right now. Best you can hope is to make an enemy ragequit so the game is a 4v5, or else you get outvalued by any other champion in the game that gets a 3 level lead by afk farming, even if you are 7/0
I play Elise. And she actually does have decent late game poke. But her late game is a bit later than most other early game champions. And like aatrox, her combo speed becomes slower relative to how fast everyone else is as time goes on. I believe, the split 3 item nerfs will help Elise (or a least help her late game come online sooner).
My thought for Elise would be to make W deal more the longer it's out and to move faster. Making it into a tracking nuke. The second thing would be to make her spiderlings more important to her core gameplay. Making them leap to what she hits akin to yorick dealing extra damage and getting a big burst of Attack speed from cocoon
@@bob-zh6el I think tying it to ranged stuff will function better. Since she has only combo and lil more. I think giving her some neutral would be great
I started lol at the patch she came out i remember her log in screen(rip those they are missed)her heca and noc were the champs that make me fall in love(addiction)with the game
I think that her rappel should be replaced with a giant web. But not a stun effect. A literal portable, deployable wall that you have to hack down, allowing her to block routes and hinder enemy advances.
Riot has been streaming all peaks and troughs for years in order to make everyone feel good but forgotten that so live and die by them. Elise is a victim of that philosophy.
i think the reason we dont see her is due to imo her being better has a sup then jng :D has for updates and stuff for me the meta is the problem not her kit has a hole maybe slight buffs to passive or spiderlings are the way to go or make the CD of her E and W lower has to maybe speed her up in clear speed and make her have slightly better damage vs tanks even if we dont see changes i will still play her sup and sometime in solo lanes (hate jng) and she is still in my top 3 of most fun champs (zoe and cassio being the other 2)
I actually play her as support and it's pretty nice and fun, she has decent cc, damage and untargetable ability, plus spider form has a bit of sustain not to mention you don't have to use mana.
Let her charge cocoon like a Varus Q and have that increase speed and distance traveled, up to double, then let her rappel always be able to land on Cocooned targets in about last-breath range, while keeping the default range. It's not good, but it's more pressure late, and toes the line between diver assaassin that she's stuck on anyway.
Within the past month I was top 69 Elise in NA and yeah... this video is accurate. I still love one tricking her though, because there is very little that people can do in certain matchups. But the meta does not lend itself to those matchups right now :/
@Vars Hi, can you do another video on renekton of the why everyone/no one plays type? I feel like Renekton is quite weak for an early game lane bully that should excel in short trades but still have a good all in. As a top/jg player who's barely P4 and doesn't have as good a grasp on the game as you, I would appreciate another video of your views on his current state.
As an Elise main, I feel like this video is just exactly what I like. To make people underestimate my champion and then get oneshotted even at 30+ minutes. Who knows how to actually play the champion is almost unbeatable. She has so much skill expression and much more variety than people realize.
What I find most interesting about these videos is how skewed my perspective is on "outdated" champs. To me, the first thing that comes to mind when I think of outdated or one-dimensional champs are champs like Malphite, Sona, or Yorick and not champs that seem to have a lot of complexity or are newer like Elise, Skarner, or K'sante. It's just interesting to realize that there are a lot of simple, older champs that do their job just fine, while at the same time there are plenty of newer or more complex champions that seem to just get out performed in the very thing they specialize in.
i would love if they turned her into a full control mage. have her ultimate be she trns into a giant spider for a set time and has new abilities. or just enhance her current ones. but even tho shes my fave jungler. she does get boring to play lol
I personally think that just making her clear less painful would do a lot. Alternatively making her abilities gain bonus effects later on through "evolve" type mechanics?
Elise just need a little pull as a mage bruiser. to be great. liandry + riftmaker makes you deal enough to kill in early game and be an annoying fighter in late. Or we can go the rek'sai route... W change you into a spider & you get an ultimate.
I think it was season 5-6 when I started maining Elise top lane. With RoA she felt great, being able to burst but still out tank and sustain better than others at the time. I kinda wish I could make it viable again
In the vein of the bot lane remark, I feel players are more aggressive on the whole in more games. Even in solo lanes, the level of super hard early pressure to try and sneak that early lead. Both top and mid.
honestly i think elise would be good if she would clear faster, because she falls of either way and currently she falls of because she is getting outscaled and heavily outfarmed by meta jglers
I don't know what you mean by easy to walk away from for the spiderlings. It feels like you need to build actual move speed to get away. Those things sprint and chase for so long.
That sad moment when "The Spider Queen" has 4 spiders, meanwhile Broodmother in DotA 2 pulls up to the party with 80 of the things and eats your base
broodmother have counters that doesn't exist in league, if elise was ever given that ability. Earthshaker can oneshot her everytime his ult is up
@@evo3481 I wasn't saying to give Elise any of Broodmother's abilities, I was commenting on the disparity in character fantasy between two spider characters.
But if we're on the topic, we have the MR version of Sunfire Cape that can do the Earthshaker thing passively, albeit not instantly. We also have three champions off the top of my head that would directly benefit from her having more spiders (Aurelion Sol, Senna, Thresh) and we even have Smolder that with his Q splash could farm stacks at ridiculous speeds mid-late game. Broodmother's swarm ability specifically is countered much more easily in League without having one dude that deletes you instantly for daring to not ban him lmao
@@BIAKaboose nasus just invading elise for 3 stacks off 1 spider early game would go hard
Or Broodmothers webs. They're one of my fav aspects of her kit as it chmages how you (as an enemy) interact with the map. Plus it just has a nice spider vibe
@@EebyDeeby515 Oh yeah, the webs are super rad, but I refuse to entertain the idea that Riot could properly balance Evelynn's permanent stealth roam and Kayne's free wall walking in one ability as a basic ability, the ult would probably just immediately destroy a tower from anywhere on the map on a one minute cooldown if that's considered basic ability tier lmao
I was an Elise one trick for 2 years. I love her
This video sums up exactly what her problems are. She feels outdated, one dimensional, and other champs do her job better. A midscope update would be enough to make her good again.
Sadly, I think Riot lowkey forgot about her ever since Evelynn rework came out. She replaced Elise entirely: lore wise, being the sexy femme fatale, AP female assasin jungler, and for God sake they're names are even similar. The only difference is early game Elise beats Evelynn, but then mid/late Evelynn does her job 10x times better.
evelynn is also easier and safer to use. her stealth makes it easy to move around the map and put pressure on your opponents to use control wards to prevent your ganks. evelynn is also non commital, as in if the one you're ganking suddenly gets backup or fights back, you can simply run away and not engage, whereas elise, if she dives in, she has to burst the target down or die trying
@@lillyie all of your claims are true, but rn evelynn cant even one shot an adc
I dont really think its even fair to compare them as champs they're both AP Assasains but playstyle is completely different Eve is passive for early game and only engages when she can clean up kills. Elise forces plays and is very aggressive and can dive towers, looks for invades etc. they have completely different power spikes and different playstyles really.
Yeah, but Elise can at least play from farther away in specific cases *cough cough NASUS cough cough*
@@turkishgrandmaexplode evelynn is still way easier to 1v9 with
elise is extremely reliant on teammates after 20 minutes as you're just hoping they can close the game out fast with the lead you gave them because you're otherwise just a stunbot. you should not be locking this champ below diamond at all for this reason
giving elise the naafiri thing with more summons= more damage thing a lot of sense since you are losing that damage everytime you swap and it also puts a lot more importance to your ability rotation in human form in order to get the max amount of spiders
i think she should have minions in both forms. make her W cost actual minions but make it stronger and faster. maybe even controllable little exploders. Q in human form cause her spiderlings to jump onto enemies instead of spider form q.
What I noticed about some of the newer champs is that they have usually a a bit flatter curve in terms of scaling than some of the older ones. Asol and smolder have strong late games but their early game is at least somewhat save, while briar and naafiri have tons of scaling to compensate for their classes usually performing worse in late game team fights. The separation in early and late game champs isn't as strict anymore, and many champs feel probably more forgiving than her.
I mean, heck, even belveth, despite her infinite scaling, does rather well in the early game, although that might be more because she is 200 years.
well Belveth's scaling is also more of a red herring in her kit, Yes she does technically infinite scale but she's technically weak in teamfights cause her damage is single target, she's a hypercarry so she's also very weak to getting focused down, essentialy her kit Needs her to do a lot of things to reward her with infinite power and in order to even get to that late game power fantasy she needs to be able to snowball (AKA have a viable early/mid game) and the reason why the separation of early and late game champions is far less noticable is that Riot realized traditional early game champs were starting to fall behind with the game becoming way faster and finishing earlier than their powerspikes, so they had to flatten the curve to allow lategame champs to Ever hit their spikes at reasonable times, Make them spike earlier, make their spikes weaker and distribute some power to their early so they can better survive the most important part of the game (The start)
If I may, I would like to add that some old champions also have a flatter scaling curve today, so it's more a general issue than a specific champ issue.
For instance, Lee Sin I remember in S8-9 used to be absolutely useless at some point in the game regardless of how fed he was, but nowadays with decent items he can still be a lethal threat for carries even in the very late game.
Currently I am learning Jarvan 4 which is supposedly an early game gank oriented champion aswell, but his fighting power feels quite constant through the game, I'd even argue that at 1-2 item powerspike he can outscale some champions.
I think what makes a champ scale or not is how well his kit handles teamfighting, whereas before season 11 some champions would straight up have bad combat stats that would cripple them regardless of how much mobility they had. You were forced to build tank items to end your build so at least you could be beefy enough to provide some value, or pray that you could trade your life to kill a carry.
Bleveth despite having infitine scaling has bad scaling, she is a snowballer, he scaling is purely as a duelist
@@thomasb5307 there are essentially two kinds of scaling: number scaling, and conceptual scaling. Number scaling is, well, better numbers over the course of the game, while conceptual scaling is how well the champ works over the different stages of the game (in what fighting scenarios does he work the best). Jarvan the forth has the advantage of having a amazing team fight ult for isolating some enemies and then letting the allies focus them down with tons of aoe damage. And because the ult is independent of his numbers, he "scales" well into the late game regardless of how the rest of his kit might look. Briar has some of the most ridiculous scalings in the game, but her kit works really at its best in duels or small scale skirmishes due to being a drain tanker that is mostly single target. Her number scaling essentially compensates for her theoretically poor conceptual scaling.
Bel'veth passive is more of a bonus, you're not intended to hyper focus on it like a Kayn trying to get his forms
Pray for more shapeshifters. One of my favorite archetypes. ADC Shapeshifter please and ty!
Agreed. I really miss old Quinn when you could swap with Valor on R, basically doing the shapeshift things.
I would like to see an adc that swaps between a dueling and teamfight form. You either do more damage but single target or less damage with cleave
To be fair a adc shapeshifter would be similar to aphelios. Different guns to keep the adc.
A 2 mode maybe, sniper into dual wield.
Sniper to zone and damage or poke safely, dual wield to execute while losong range.
@@fergin4979 i don't think we actualy want such monster on the rift onestly
@@Diamondstar1ify IIRC you can AA as a bird, but I forgot what were your bonuses aside from more AD and tankiness in exchnge for being melee.
I used to main Elise when she first came out. I played her top lane because of the % HP damage, she was a tank eater. After they refocused her for jungle, she never felt the same.
Basically: A long time ago, she was broken. She had a stun, substantial assassination power, some moderate sustained dps and the ability to freely remove tower aggro.
Now, everyone has that on their Q, basically. The turret aggro thing is probably still in the game, because she's so outclassed by much more cohesive and well designed kits, so she doesn't even get the Riot aggro over what they went to lengths to prevent other (especially newer reworks) from doing.
"everyone has that on their Q" lmao most pisslow take ever. Name any champ that has stun/assassination power/dps all in one single Q. Actual low IQ comment.
Her scaling is the biggest problem. While she retains her old power in early game, her late game is really weak. This is important because comeback mechanics are so strong right now. She still has to go through her whole combo to really one shot people while a lot of modern assassins just need 1/2 their kit to do so. Even then, her full combo may not even get the kill if she is not fed enough. If your early game was all about giving your laners kills and they screw up, you can't solo carry anymore. They need to add some aspects to her kit to make her scale better, like making cocoon targets take more damage, make skittering frenzy heal more or just up the scaling numbers on her base kit
I won't forget when she was meta and could point and click onetap you. Thank God she's gone.
For a very long time, I always wondered why Elise is classified as a Diver instead of an Assassin personally speaking
Its possible a rioter saw her diving at lv3 so easily and thought the class was right for her
Unlike most assassins, Elise does not have both effective target selection and escape tools. While rappel offers a lot of flexibility, it's very high CD, and she will need to either walk her way in or walk her way out. Which means her combat pattern is more straightforward than most assassins, and she will need to take more damage compared to most of them during a fight. Divers are classified as champions that go in, take someone out, and then fight to the death. This is not too far from what Elise does, except she's squishier than most AD divers because of the AP bruiser item issue. Similar to lee sin and rek'sai (both divers), it's difficult for elise to assassinate anyone late game unless they face-check her or run at her or one of her teammates. From season 2 up until seasons 8-9 or so she has always built offtank (magic pen and health were her most important stats) and sometimes every supportive items, until the meta shifted and the need to force an early game win through sheer damage eclipsed the need to be useful in mid-to-late game fights.
@@sophiaascart484 i remember for a time her build was JG item into liandry rilay combo
@@gigagaming960l
a relic from a time her jump was considered "long range" back in 2013~
"Champion that gets power/feature crept by the latest gameplay changes and champion releases, requiring an emergency rework or otherwise buff but not getting one for years after they've already been pushed out of the meta"? Many such cases.
Elise has been one of my favourite designs both character and kit wise, having a clear distinction between control mage and assassin, with the satisfying fluidity of being able to control when you transform and having abilities between the forms' kits enable each other (human Q %current HP damage allowing spider Q to gain %missing HP damage faster, human E stunning for easy and free DPS in spider form with W and Q). She used to be an easy answer to late game junglers and comps and fit in well with a lot of your own comps despite her arguably very basic abilities on each form's kit.
Nowadays, with how easy leads and gold are to get, and items like Serrated Dirk giving insane early stats, she just feels straight up bad, especially being an AP assassin (or bruiser if you fancy that), as AP item balance is super fragile. AD champs have the benefit of picking from AD + lethality, AD + crit, AD + health, AD + CDR, AD + armour/MR, or building tank items without losing much damage. AP champs have AP + pen, AP + haste, or AP + health, and that lack of choice feels REALLY bad on a crept-out-of-meta champ like Elise because the less her kit design contributes to her power, the more item reliant she gets, and her losing a shit load of AP or health because a Riot needed to slap down an HP stacking mage, or some other item abuser like Brand and Zyra. It shows how terrible her state is when we've been in an AP jungler meta for a split and a half and she's barely seeing a rise in pickrate (I think she gained like .3%? It's still abysmal compared to the Brand and Sejuani you'll see almost every game.)
Early game champions (as in champions designed SPECIFIALLY to have a strong early game) feel like they're a dying breed because there's just so much damage and stats in the game now that even a Heimerdinger, Veigar, or Jax are strong at 1 item now. I mean, hell, the premier late game mage from the old era, Vlad, is strong in early game right now. It just makes me super sad that Riot is obsessed with the 20 minute meta and doesn't invest in champions that won't generate skin sales or make epic proplay moments (despite that being the thing Elise used to do anyways). I really wish Riot would take the easy way out and issue referendums and Q&A with champion main communities to best determine how to handle their champions balance becuase as of right now , even the really smart players who know exactly what's wrong with a champion or can list all their bugs by heart are just outright ignored by Riot while they push their own clearly out-of-touch visions (see: the latest shitshow with K'Sante, the incoming rework being very clearly toxic and the wrong direction for the champion, all clearly outlined and decried by the K'Sante mains, and Phreak or Phroxon just says there is no war in Ba Sing Se...)
Every time u release a why no one plays video I feel a calling in my heart to play that champion
I think a mid-scope update, like how you mentioned that could turn her into a bruiser, would be a very good idea. Elise has a sustain effect in her spider form on her auto attacks; I think making it scale with bonus HP rather than AP would help, and having her spiderlings apply on-hit effects (probably with 50% reduced potency) instead of spell effects would help too, or maybe having a gimmick that allows her to summon more spiderlings in combat.
Fun fact: Naafiri's dogs' attack speed scales with 100% of Naafiri's attack speed, but Elise's spiderlings only attack as fast as her ranks in W. That definitely needs to be changed if Elise is to be a bruiser
I would love Elise to become some sort of AP Yorick just so I can permasplit in case the real one is banned.
Range Form: Battle Mage, slowing them down and keeping them away from escaping your webs
Melee Form: Bruiser, you have come to close to me now. fight fight fight fight bite bite bite bite.
5:08 "tower diving has never been easier" old reworked pantheon empowered e: let me introduce myself
She on my list of champions that in theory would be right up my alley but I never actually play. I'm a top lane player so I've always wanted to see her go up there as a sort of ap bruiser but a minion focused caster type would also be cool.
My suggestions are increase the spiderlings, change her human W completely (not fun or interactive to use or play against), increase her self healing, make human Q feel like an ability, give her higher base stats, lower her early level ability scaling but have them scale harder with levels, make her spider E feel more intuitive to use and reward her more for using it on enemies.
"Qiyana who can wipe out entire teams with her ult"
You don't gotta rub salt into the wound Vars
Every1 plays elise when its a 0 farming spamganking meta, when its not there is no point to play her.
I have a lot of success playing her bruiser top lane. Her lane bullying pressure is pretty substantial. I would say a weakness of hers is fighting un-interactive top laners such as a kayle or nasus, but if you capitalize on the early game weakness of those types of champions easy snowball lane and swap the build path to assassin mage. The most successful way of play for me has been go in with the mindset of bruiser and make changes based on game state and other factors.
I used to play her top when she first came out, but stopped after the changes. What build do you use top?
@AvalenFrost I've been testing a lot of different builds over the changing seasons atm the strongest still is her usual assassin roots with electrocute lichbane rush. Bruiser I either go grasp or comet. Grasp I play the early game like ad nidalee top transforming for max stack advantage. Comet allows you to play the early game more aggressive your spiders refresh comet quickly. Items om bruiser build are a mix of whatever you need build similar to rumble. I notice I haven't said any actual items because I change the build up so frequently 😅 I recommend looking up my account and picking a build that I've done in the recent past that suites your style best.
Wish she could be more like broodmother from dota 2, it's the only reason i really play it lmao, the fantasy of being a scary, cute-ish Wolf spider surrounded by webs and threatening ANYTHING and ANYONE within it's territory while summoning waves of spiderlings to help her is very appealing to me, like, really, i just wish broodmother was in league, and elise in dota 2, broodmother is just WAY more unique and fun and would perfectly fit the jungle role, being able to freely traverse terrain with it's webs and do objectives with the spiderlings, WHY GOD, WHY MUST I PLAY DOTA 2 ONLY TO ENJOY A SINGLE. SPIDER. CHARACTER. AAAAAAA
She used to be somewhat similar. BM falloff late game but can absolutely dominate mid game. Elise used to dominate early game but now she can't even do that. Now early champions have too much stats Elise can't reliably kill them to get a lead and you know what happens if an early champion can't win the early game. Not to mention Rito has been gradually shortening the game for many years and with the late game coming quicker, people just wait for the early phase to be over to get back.
now 14.19 and she became popular lmao
Good video. The question really comes down to: why pick her ? Almost everything she does another champion does better. There are better divers, assassins, stun bots. Elise in 2024 simply has nothing which is ironic since she is a shapeshifter.
as someone who played elise on launch and into season 3-4-5 she was the one champ I was able to carry with, and felt good about it and learned and mastered, even getting plat and diamond players (very high at the time) to help me get better, I feel her jungle clear speed is the only thing she needs, it feels bad i ganked all 3 lanes, cleared my jungle and hybrid-ap shyvana out here doing the most.... (or who ever) and don't get me wrong i'll play briar, kayn, hec, but i miss elise
Video Release 13 Seconds ago i got it recommended as soon as it got released love your vids.
Honestly shapeshifters in general have somewhat got screwed by the impact of newer champions in league.
In the past Shapeshifters where the champions who have more abilities overall (if u ignore swapping it's 6 to 4) meaning they burst better or are more flexible than most champions.
But then you look at newer champions and a large number of them straight up reset their abilities with minimal effort effectively giving them infinite abilities so long as the conditions still fulfilled or just have more abilities in general through some mechanic & still get their ultimate.
as nowerdays they're fighting with things like aphelios, hwei, k'sante, viego, samira, pyke.
They could give Elise a great niche by replacing one of her boring abilities (Spider W/Human Q) with that AoE spiderweb thingie you mentioned at the end, with the only effect applied to enemies being 'grounded' to simulate being "caught in the spider's web" or whatever. IIRC only Cassio and Singed can apply Grounded, it would be great to get another user of it to help with all the movement/dash creep. Imagine if Cocoon could hit an additional target or do more damage or have an aoe slow when used on a target inside the spiderweb ability?
That would help Elise be suited towards "anti-mobility" like how Vex was supposed to, but it makes much more sense on a spider than whatever shadow yordle thing Vex is supposed to be.
Yet another grounded/stun ability isn't going to do anything. What it needs to be is something like a 3-5 second sticky wall that you have to do damage to to get past/knock down. Imagine simply walling off the drake pit for 3 seconds, and slowing enemies if they touch it. If she had a unique ability that reflected the problem what spider webs cause to adventurers, traditionally (making a maze out of an area), then she would have great value in matchups.
Simply said, elise got outscaled, in game and in terms of features
Well that aged badly, her update with the new season made her incredibly popular and rather strong. Deserved though, she was so long in the gutter - it's nice to see her shine again
I feel like one of the things that holds Elise back is her fantasy. Compared to other champions, her spider queen fantasy is soo simple; she can't apply actual poison even if she's supposed to be a venomous spider, she doesn't really plays around webs and her spiderlings are passive damage that while are useful, don't feel impactful or make you feel like you're a spider queen.
Compared to other femme fatales like Evelynn and Zyra, her fantasy feels really barebones; Evelynn stalks her enemies, seduces them and then unleashes hell on them, hopping to the next victim afterwards, Zyra builds a network of plants that makes you feel like you're controlling the earth and dominating enemies with your thorns. Elise just makes you do her combo and only use rapel to pursue, dive or escape enemies.
I don't think her kit is bad and her being a shapeshifter is the strongest part of her identity, but i hope riot gives her more power to match how she's depicted in lore.
I have an idea to make her feel useful particularly in grouped situations
Rappel drops a spider web that reduces movement speed where she lands or where she uses it (not sure yet) which reduces enemies movement speed and maybe attack speed by a scaling amount. Could also be a very quick snare (not stun). The range of this scales with levels in the ability.
This could give her a bit of engage (if it lands where she lands) or a bit of disengage (if it lands where she uses it)
Rappel in, use Zhonyas, hope your team kills them
It’s not the best ability, but as E is leveled last, it gives her an option late game
She should’ve had the bel’veth passive where she spawns voispawns when she attacks towers but instead of voidspawn it would be spiders
Maybe give her a more significant heal on her 'Q', and make her 'W' reset it's duration and give even more attack speed when she kills anything.
That'll make her essentially have more damage, simulate being a bruiser basically. And the attack speed thing will increase her clear speed in an interesting way.
finally an elise videooooo i tried playing her and she’s fiine but feels weird unless you main her.. she’s harder to get into than others
Maybe they could try to make her splitpush better by giving her spiders more scaling against minons and objectives.
I recently became an Elise enjoyer, and I found great success with her in the gutter ranks I play in because I have no time or love for sweating my ass off. I feel like a midscope update that focuses on giving her a bit more versatility and a few more ways for her spiderlings to contribute to her gameplay would feel excellent. As it stands, her spiderlings feel more like an afterthought most of the time outside of the first clear, when I'm using them to absorb camp aggro. I also think that'd make for some interesting potential for AP bruiser builds, allowing Elise to take slightly longer fights in spider form after her engage for those mid-late game teamfights.
It would be cool to see Vilemaw be incorporated into Elise's kit.
To preface, I am not saying to do all of these. IMO these would be effective ways to increase different parts of her gameplay.
- Increase base dmg for her abilities for early to mid game effectiveness when ganking.
- To make her better late game, increase the AP scaling on her abilities.
- For jungle clear, increase her spiderling dmg and attack speed boost from W. (IMO this would be the most useful thing to give her a leg up)
- To make her more effective in a team fight, reduce the CD of her Rappel and add a dmg reduction effect when landing. Can also up her human W dmg or change it.. Rappel CD is way too long.
Been trying to make Botlane Elise work and this video feels like a hard reality check 😢
My day is made Vars. Thank you 🥰🥰
One thing that was a charm of malzahar pre-rework 2° rework was having his voidlings to summon other voidlings, and soo on. By the late game and enough Ability haste, you could swarm a champions with 10 + voidlings. Riot removed this beloved mechanic and i sthill miss it. If they could implement such a change on Elise like, " Every time a spiderling attacks one stunned or poison target it summons another spiderling , your Q aplies poison on spider form" you be such a good way of making her like a sustained DPS, while giving her a gimmick of having an army of spiders.
I've genuinely seen Elise mid and support almost as much as I've seen her jungle in my 2 years of playing.
I am a half casual, half competitive League player nowadays, and I love her in ARAM. I always make sure to grab her on that map for how much of a menace in annoying people with her spiders, her damage, and her escape tool. She used to be the more popular jungler in the 2010s and somehow the times caught up with her. Still cool to me since I would be able to pick her more often. 😅
in their pursuit for diversity in the jungle, they ended up forgetting the older champions that excelled specifically in the jungle and simplified it so more champs could join.
by simplifying the jungle, Elise's niche with her early dives, amazing sustain and scary early deteriorated in popularity because most will outscale her by the 20 minute mark
I miss the years when jungle camps were more than just different skinned minions and actually posed a threat, and they didn't allow literal squishy mages with no survivability like Brand to be one of the fastest jungle clearers.
Why?
It isn't camp weakness that makes brand fast, it's the fact his abilities have 200%+ damage modifiers to camps. Mages like Brand and Zyra are being brute forced into the role by the balance team with jungle modifiers. If it was only the fact that camps are weaker, you'd see a much more diverse cast of mages than that the few that are being forced in.
Brand has one of the slowest clears before fated Ashes.
Nowadays it feels like there's no point of dedicated junglers when even marksmen like Jhin can perform full clear without leash in 3:30.
@@aabeeek
Junglers start going to other lanes, if anything it gives more variety
seeing a good elise nowadays is like seeing a good kindred or pre-rework asol. you just found a unicorn!
I believe Elise's a rare case, where she's not bad, but needs help, and also because she could be godd candidate for BOTH a touch up or a complete VGU, both could work out, depending on how it's done.
Wouldnt she be best for a CGU then?
Core gameplay update
I main Elise in mid lane. There’s some tougher matchups like Xerath and Orianna who just poke me out of lane. They play too far back and it’s hard to land a stun combo. If anything, a buff to her early human form damage or more healing on spider form autos would help compete in lane.
She also struggles to clear waves as good as other mages who can spam their main abilities. Elise’s human W is the only AOE ability that effectively clears minions, but it has a somewhat long cooldown and it’s somewhat unreliable for last hits. Building Luden’s helps with this some. An upgrade or buff to human W would help her clear minions or jungle camps a bit faster and put her back into the meta.
11:15 That's so real. That's why elise is so good in Arena. Everyone grows at the same time so that disparity is no longer there
Early on you asked ‘so what happened to Elise?’ My first thought was “nothing…that’s the problem”. And the rest of your video confirms it. The game has evolved and she’s one of the champs that hasn’t kept up. It wouldn’t take a lot for Riot to help Elise. Her design really needs no change… give her an A Sol style update.
I just finished a game playing Elise scored 8/1/4
cant wait to watch ur vid
For a bit last year, she was not only meta but a dominant popular pick. But I definitely don't see her much now, and I didn't see her much before her recent 15 minutes of fame. I've always felt she was clunky with her descent - she should be able to land anywhere in her range from up there, even with no target to descend upon. That would be a huge quality of life change for her and make her feel nice.
50 secs ago is vile
I'm not sure how Riot would "inspire" of this, but I always thought that Riot got a bit inspired off broodmother from dota2. So here are few of the things she can do. This is in no way me saying that introducing some of these would help.
1. The main mechanic of broodmother is her spinning webs. She can make basically lane wide areas of web and can have whole lot of them across the map (the duration isn't limited but the amount). She runs like on crack over them, kind of similar how skarner could with his spires. It does not increase damage, just speed making her a menace at rotating to different lanes out of combat.
2. The way she summons spiders is actually through kills. In a way stacking infinitely them with every single kill with an ultimate because she lays eggs in her opponents. Albeit in dota2 because of its RTS nature the summons are very often used for scouting and/or discount warding tools here they could probably still work as something more similar to naafiri packmates or yorick ghouls if they weren't braindead and wouldn't push lane after yorick doesn't micromanage every single one of their movements.
I'm not a game designer but if her defining core gameplay is focusing on killing rather than objectives, then shifting her power budget into essentially being able to play river elise through increased movement speed on her selected areas, and also making her able to build up an absurd amount of spider army with each kill would allow her to be the modern snowballing champion. I am spitballing though, I am not an Elise player so said players would probably hate it.
Honestly one thing I think could help with the snowball nature of League would be to increase the map size. Add a few odd jungle camps to the sides that open up after say, 15 minutes or something. This way there'd be more gold and space, and I wouldn't have to be afraid of the enemy team's 4 assassins when I try to go and catch the sidewave that's about to crash.
Yay, a Elise video :D, even if is about why she dosen't get enough love.
Im happy any time she gets some attention. I OTP her quite hard, literally i just play Lol with friends and for about 3 years, i haven't played anything that is not elise, dosen't matter the Line. Yeah, its quite sad to have a champion full of bugs, outdated, with minimal skins while having 11 years, with more than 20 consecute nerfs and never in history i can say she did get a buf, until some days ago, and still wasn't a buff, it was just a (oh hey you guys we promised a buff to her 2 years ago and we have been prosponing that multiple times, here i fixed 2 bugs that we promised to fix more than 5 years ago, have some less HP on every spiderling).Also she has with no debate the wost attack hability on all League, her human Q, that deals even wost damage that her auto for the price of 20% of her mana.Ah yeah, probably she gots the worst auto in the game too, almost 3 seconds per auto. Ah, yeah and she gots the worst scaling of any champion so far, even declarated by Riot staff at this point. One thinks for the worst scaling in all League she would have the best Start, is the only reason why even playing her, but no, she can't 1vrs1 more than 90% of jungle pull at start. And eveythime a complain ios made of her state or that she needs to be in meta you will read comments of (well, she was meta 9 years ago, for a whole uptade, so she dosen't need to be in meta again) xd. Still im gonna still otp her, love her Ctrl 4 spider laugh so much. But i rlly hope she one day gets good play rate numbers, for all mains of her loves that she is in a niche, 11 years in that state is way too much for any fandom.
(Update) Yeah true, we loss our only youtuber OTP 3 months ago or so He stopped playing Lol. And the other guy otp on youtube the people on reddit recommended was asian and stoped at the same time playing. So, we are not just starving, we are bones on a poll by now.
most shapeshifters ni league are early game champs, but jayce definatly does not fall off late game
I'm old enough in this game to remember Elise top with Voyboy. Elise used to be crazy.
I play her.
She's insane, very versatile.
As an assassin she slaps hard, but she can also be played kind as a bruiser with Riftmaker, and it also plays really nice. Tank Elise is usefull, sometimes i push into this build if my damage proves irrelevant that game.
Just remembered Elise exists because of this video, and immediately thought Fright Night would be a perfect skin for her.
I feel like she needs some modernisation, i play Elise quite a bit. She can benefit from reworks or buffs in:
1. Making her q a point and click/skillshot dash, this is so that she can get over small walls making her clear better
2. She needs more range on spider form, make it scaling everytime u level r
3. Improve her clear, maybe reduce w cooldown or increase monster dmg
I think a buff in her W in spider form would really benefit her, because it's not very useful to have a dps boosting tool in a champ focused on burst. I would add a passive where each attack in spider form heals her a fix amount based on her max hp, and when the ability is activated it heals you more based on your missing health + a little bit of scaling based on your bonus health. This way insted of defaulting into a just burst build of big ap items you could build battle mages items giving her a pseudo-diver or even tank shreder role
lise was a legendary playmaker back when she could go tank/bruiser and they gutted that. her kit deserves to be viable with at least riftmaker/liandrys build
As a masters renekton main, I miss my spider friends
As a masters elise main, I miss crocodile mains aswell. When someone plays him, it's always a first timer thinking it's a good idea to pick him because of the synergy and end up inting the game.
I will drop it here:
Q: Increase mouse pointer detection range, and prioritize enemy target. Also, Elise should move towards the location of Q when pressed. Add AP% scaling normally instead of uga bunga petty current/missing health % bullshit, those mechanisms shouldn't be on assassin kits.
W: Human form, spider bomb navigatable similar to Neeko W. Spider form should grant movement speed when attacking a target, and grant longer attack speed buff, cooldown reduced when spider summon hits a champion.
E: Spider form, increase range by 150 range, and fasten animation of landing when selecting a target. Human form, when the cocoon hits, reset the R cooldown. If Nidalee can have the mechanism on Q, Elise should have too.
R: Spider form, spiderling should keep attacking the enemy for up to 3 seconds even if Elise is running away or left the combat range.
I love how I don’t play league, but I see yer vid and think, “huh, why DOES no one play Elise?”
Sice when is kindred scary in the early game😂😂😂 3:36
She used to be one of the strongest duelist junglers in early levels. Between kiting, the low q cooldown in w, and the execute damage on her e she was super strong early.
she has always been an early game jungler, she isn't anymore because of the healthier clears from everybody else
Elise really just neees her mana costs and damage buffed
This video made me notice that I haven't played any of the shapeshifters for a while.... And I used to main most of them
This champion is f*cking amazing, and then comes the late game
I used to play her because of her Blood Moon Skin. Lol.
I stopped playing jungle in general when I realized Jungle was heavily decided by fan favorites like Lee Sin, Jarvan IV, Kha'Zix who go long periods of time without any actual nerfs.
Sooooo I play ADC, the role that gets frequent nerfs lol.
I love how this video came out literally day 1 of trying to play elise
I've been a huge Elise enthusiast since season 6, and she always hovers my most played champs in almost every season. Although most points here make sense, I highly disagree with Elise falling off. With how much power items have in modern League, no champ falls off in terms of damage. Elise can one tap anyone just as fast at 1 item or at 6 items. The issue isn't the damage, the issue is the playstyle. Elise is a predator jungler (don't confuse the term with top laners, please), she doesn't want to sit back and farm, she doesn't like invading for camps or full clearing 6 times in a row. Her playstyle rewards early action, early aggression and small fights, with as few people as possible because she's entirely single target damage (yes, her human w is technically aoe, but it can only hit one very small place so it's single target unless people are extremely bunched up).
The problem with Elise is systematic with the game. Riot changed the way jungle ganks work by drastically reducing how much exp a jungler gets from lane minions, so getting a gank off and helping your laner push a wave gives you (and I mean you individually as a jungler, the gank benefits mostly your laner) a lot less benefit than just full clearing. This makes camp cycling a lot more valuable and that plays completely away from Elise's strengths. On top of that, it took Riot years to notice how broken Mercs were vs ap champs, and Hexdrinker/Maw is a free win ticket vs a burst assassin with no innate way of reducing or removing shields or have magic pen outside of some items.
Her kit is still good, it's relatively simple but has a huge skill cap, but her playstyle is extremely unrewarding right now. Best you can hope is to make an enemy ragequit so the game is a 4v5, or else you get outvalued by any other champion in the game that gets a 3 level lead by afk farming, even if you are 7/0
I play Elise. And she actually does have decent late game poke. But her late game is a bit later than most other early game champions. And like aatrox, her combo speed becomes slower relative to how fast everyone else is as time goes on. I believe, the split 3 item nerfs will help Elise (or a least help her late game come online sooner).
My thought for Elise would be to make W deal more the longer it's out and to move faster. Making it into a tracking nuke. The second thing would be to make her spiderlings more important to her core gameplay. Making them leap to what she hits akin to yorick dealing extra damage and getting a big burst of Attack speed from cocoon
The human w and the small spieders do leep to the enemy when elise does q in spieder form
@@bob-zh6el I think tying it to ranged stuff will function better. Since she has only combo and lil more. I think giving her some neutral would be great
I started lol at the patch she came out i remember her log in screen(rip those they are missed)her heca and noc were the champs that make me fall in love(addiction)with the game
I think that her rappel should be replaced with a giant web. But not a stun effect. A literal portable, deployable wall that you have to hack down, allowing her to block routes and hinder enemy advances.
Riot has been streaming all peaks and troughs for years in order to make everyone feel good but forgotten that so live and die by them. Elise is a victim of that philosophy.
i think the reason we dont see her is due to imo her being better has a sup then jng :D
has for updates and stuff for me the meta is the problem not her kit has a hole maybe slight buffs to passive or spiderlings are the way to go or make the CD of her E and W lower has to maybe speed her up in clear speed and make her have slightly better damage vs tanks
even if we dont see changes i will still play her sup and sometime in solo lanes (hate jng) and she is still in my top 3 of most fun champs (zoe and cassio being the other 2)
Oh i remember the good ol rylais,liandry,deadmans core 😍
The way belveth can summon more little henchmen
"this 97 year old champion still jungles the old fashioned way"
Jayce NIdalee Kled are still seen in URF and are FUN too, no one plays them outside URF nowadays.
I actually play her as support and it's pretty nice and fun, she has decent cc, damage and untargetable ability, plus spider form has a bit of sustain not to mention you don't have to use mana.
Let her charge cocoon like a Varus Q and have that increase speed and distance traveled, up to double, then let her rappel always be able to land on Cocooned targets in about last-breath range, while keeping the default range.
It's not good, but it's more pressure late, and toes the line between diver assaassin that she's stuck on anyway.
She could create a small slowing zone when landing from rappel too
Within the past month I was top 69 Elise in NA and yeah... this video is accurate. I still love one tricking her though, because there is very little that people can do in certain matchups. But the meta does not lend itself to those matchups right now :/
@Vars Hi, can you do another video on renekton of the why everyone/no one plays type? I feel like Renekton is quite weak for an early game lane bully that should excel in short trades but still have a good all in. As a top/jg player who's barely P4 and doesn't have as good a grasp on the game as you, I would appreciate another video of your views on his current state.
Fullclear jungling is the meta rn
Simple
As an Elise main, I feel like this video is just exactly what I like. To make people underestimate my champion and then get oneshotted even at 30+ minutes. Who knows how to actually play the champion is almost unbeatable. She has so much skill expression and much more variety than people realize.
You're partially correct but she fr does need an update, also you sound like the asol mains before his rework XD
I am OTP Elise and I completely agree with you
Bro i play alot of Renekton top and whenever i get a proper Elise jungler im so happy
Perfect wording choice at 4:46
What I find most interesting about these videos is how skewed my perspective is on "outdated" champs. To me, the first thing that comes to mind when I think of outdated or one-dimensional champs are champs like Malphite, Sona, or Yorick and not champs that seem to have a lot of complexity or are newer like Elise, Skarner, or K'sante. It's just interesting to realize that there are a lot of simple, older champs that do their job just fine, while at the same time there are plenty of newer or more complex champions that seem to just get out performed in the very thing they specialize in.
i would love if they turned her into a full control mage. have her ultimate be she trns into a giant spider for a set time and has new abilities. or just enhance her current ones. but even tho shes my fave jungler. she does get boring to play lol
I personally think that just making her clear less painful would do a lot. Alternatively making her abilities gain bonus effects later on through "evolve" type mechanics?
Elise just need a little pull as a mage bruiser. to be great.
liandry + riftmaker makes you deal enough to kill in early game and be an annoying fighter in late.
Or we can go the rek'sai route... W change you into a spider & you get an ultimate.
I think it was season 5-6 when I started maining Elise top lane. With RoA she felt great, being able to burst but still out tank and sustain better than others at the time. I kinda wish I could make it viable again
In the vein of the bot lane remark, I feel players are more aggressive on the whole in more games. Even in solo lanes, the level of super hard early pressure to try and sneak that early lead. Both top and mid.
I knew he'd make a video on Elise. Long time ago during a youtube stream i asked him and he said he'd never do one about Elise and here it is 😂
honestly i think elise would be good if she would clear faster, because she falls of either way and currently she falls of because she is getting outscaled and heavily outfarmed by meta jglers
I don't know what you mean by easy to walk away from for the spiderlings. It feels like you need to build actual move speed to get away. Those things sprint and chase for so long.
Touch-up. Improve spiderling's AI and increase cocoon width.
It would be cool if you made a series called "why everyone should play..." and then talk about what champions you think are underrated.
Hot take: make repel not need a target, it'd make it less clunky, more fun, and easier to escape.