This man clearly knows how to instruct, from begining to end. So many videos I've seen leave out steps and/or points of comparison, rendering them somewhat useless.
Toned for the first time today, and was perplexed after I obtained an almost purple result. I stumbled on your video, and nearly at the very end you mention purple tones with Sprint developer. Kismet! Thanks for confirming I didn’t just screw up.
Another great video. So much you can do with toning especially if you split tone. GAF is my standard developer though I don't think my results are as strong as what you got in this video. One thing you didn't mention is the use of perma wash. I've followed Michael Smith recommendation for 20 years and that is to add perma wash to the selenium toner bath (he uses 1 oz selenium/ 3 oz perms wash to 128 oz water). I was listening to a talk by Clyde Butcher recently who said that it makes a big difference whether you add perma wash to the selenium to the toner or do it separately. According to him you want to add perma wash and not separately. Thanks again for the great video.
For sure, amidol does not create denser lower values, then say, a Beer's formula (I never used Dektol). I have been using amidol in my printing for about 50 years now, so experience tells me. I will offer a very different thought on toning. Reasonable dilutions (1/12 to 1/20+ parts selenium to water) are only significant if the print time in the toner is consistent. Otherwise, the dilution of the selenium does not mean much--it is the time the print spends in the selenium that actually matters. So, if you use dilute toner formula it will take more time to give you the same results than if you had used a much higher ratio (again, reasonable dilutions). I don't know about bromide papers, but AZO shares many of the traits of it's predecessor: Print Out Paper. And so with AZO you can also drive your coloration by PH (however the tones are opposite that of Print out Paper). So, if you mix a weak base, ie. Na+ Sulfite, in your toner formula, you can drive your reaction into the cooler tones. At 4' in 1:15 Kodak Rapid toner selenium, my AZO prints offer a mild purple hue that bromide papers will not give you. Guiding your toner with weak acids will give you a more sepia warm tone. So, knowing this you can proceed further with AZO chloride paper (I don't know about bromide types); and build a generalized complex of warm and cold tones (not split toned--it is a true complex of colors throughout). What you would do is an incomplete acid formula hypo fix and then tone in a neutral formula. Don't wash between. And the PH will drive your paper into the warmer colors. After this toning, return your print to complete with a alkaline fixer, and retone with a basic PH selenium. These effects can create absolutely beautiful tones that I have never seen on bromide prints. Again, the various hues on your print are governed by the PH of your selenium formula. And, yes, just as you said, your paper will also favor certain colorations. Anyway, you offer a great video, and I am so glad to see tutorials and studies on chemical film/print processing.
Very useful. You didn't mention temperature for your 5-minute time. There is also a school which, based on lab testing, established years ago that the weaker dilutions and partial toning do not provide the same degree of protection to the less-toned areas, i.e., higher print values, as to the lower. I don;t worry about this a lot, because a properly processed and reasonably well maintained print will outlast us all anyway. Although many of my images have historic subjects, I believe the important ones will survive.
I processed everything at room temperature, about 22C. Selenium toning may not be as archival as it has always been believed, but better than no toning. For archival permanence, gold toning or thiorea based toner (brown toner) may be better in the end.
@@TheNakedPhotographer I have also wondered how much protection toning would provide if it was done only for 'permanence' and not for color change. I don't tone my prints since I don't have a convenient/sufficiently well ventilated space to do it, so I' wonder what I'm giving up in permanence. Are you aware of any published tests that have been done under lab conditions to determine the relative permanence of toned/untoned prints?
There is a book by Wilhelm about the permanence of color prints, for b&w there are books on print conservation from Kodak that discuss toned prints. There are most likely research papers from Rochester Institute of Technology that look into it, but I don’t know any titles off the top of my head.
Thanks Greg, informative as always. I rarely tone for longer than 1 min myself (at 1:19) as I usually pull the print as soon as I notice a change. I like the archival property of selenium, but I almost always prefer the untoned color (Ilford FB Mutigrade). I have had some pleasant results from using a very dilute ferri bath after selenium toning tho. It gives a kind of mild sepia effect.
Thank you for the helpful video. I would be curious to see a demo of a split tone process, eg sepia and selenium, if that's something that you occasionally do.
That was a fantastic and very helpful comparison, thank you! I've been mostly using 1:19 when I tone (in MCC 110 and Ilford Classic) but I had yet to try stronger dilutions with Classic (I did with MCC and found it tends to go pink to red - which can be pretty cool sometimes). Oh likewise, the C-41 towel is fantastic! Mine came in last week. It's great!
excellent. having dabbled with Selenium toning (a tiny bit), one thing which came off well was the huge number of possible variations and resulting effects. Chance and frustration at the same time… that is why your systematic approach is so helpful! I did read about a weakening/reversing effect of selenium toning over time (say 2 vs. 5 minutes) in some manuals (say Rollei Selenium), as well as its' effects on different parts of the tonal spectrum: starting with the darker tones and then later reaching the mid and higher tones. Do you concur? Cheers R.
The split tone effect seen in the WT prints shows this very clearly. If I toned longer, the mid and high tones would turn brown as well. A weaker dilution and longer toning time would give greater control of the color since the reaction would be slower, but eventually all the prints would look the same if toned long enough.
thank you! a very helpful video. I have a stupid question, though: I know that you said that at some point the toning will stop, but could be possible to achieve noticeable tone change with weak dilutions with extended baths? Let's say, 1:19 for half an hour, for example.
@@TheNakedPhotographer that's good to know. I try to cut down as much as possible the use of chemicals or use less toxic ones to look after the environment. I been trying to achieve acceptable paper development with caffenol or teanol, but the problem is that the mixture stain the paper. You have any ideas in that regard?
I've selenium toned for years and now use a 1:9 dilution, including a wash aid, for about 4 minutes. Do you know how many (say 11x14) sheets of paper a gallon of solution will tone, and how long can the solution of toner be stored in air tight containers?
Ilford publishes numbers of 25 prints at 8x10 size per liter when mixed 1:3. That would be approximately 12 11x14 prints. Weaker dilutions would tone fewer, so 1:9, being less than half the toner per liter would be maybe 5 11x14 prints per liter. They also publish storage of 6 months in a full bottle for the working strength solution, 1 month in a partial bottle, and 7 days in an open tray. I would expect Kodak’s toner to perform in the same manner.
According to toning maestro Tim Rudman, max density is usually achieved after about 2min in 1:9. After that the density increase will actually start to reverse
@@TheNakedPhotographer perhaps it's just a perceptual effect as the colour starts to come in. I do notice this happening on Ilford Classic FB (in Adox MCC), but I guess it's maybe not real
Best selenium toner info on RUclips that I’ve seen thanks.
This man clearly knows how to instruct, from begining to end. So many videos I've seen leave out steps and/or points of comparison, rendering them somewhat useless.
Very helpful, thank you for posting this.
Toned for the first time today, and was perplexed after I obtained an almost purple result. I stumbled on your video, and nearly at the very end you mention purple tones with Sprint developer. Kismet! Thanks for confirming I didn’t just screw up.
Another great video. So much you can do with toning especially if you split tone. GAF is my standard developer though I don't think my results are as strong as what you got in this video. One thing you didn't mention is the use of perma wash. I've followed Michael Smith recommendation for 20 years and that is to add perma wash to the selenium toner bath (he uses 1 oz selenium/ 3 oz perms wash to 128 oz water). I was listening to a talk by Clyde Butcher recently who said that it makes a big difference whether you add perma wash to the selenium to the toner or do it separately. According to him you want to add perma wash and not separately. Thanks again for the great video.
Many thanks for sharing this, really interesting and good to see changes.
Do you sepia tone as well? If so, any chance of a vid on that?
For sure, amidol does not create denser lower values, then say, a Beer's formula (I never used Dektol). I have been using amidol in my printing for about 50 years now, so experience tells me. I will offer a very different thought on toning. Reasonable dilutions (1/12 to 1/20+ parts selenium to water) are only significant if the print time in the toner is consistent. Otherwise, the dilution of the selenium does not mean much--it is the time the print spends in the selenium that actually matters. So, if you use dilute toner formula it will take more time to give you the same results than if you had used a much higher ratio (again, reasonable dilutions). I don't know about bromide papers, but AZO shares many of the traits of it's predecessor: Print Out Paper. And so with AZO you can also drive your coloration by PH (however the tones are opposite that of Print out Paper). So, if you mix a weak base, ie. Na+ Sulfite, in your toner formula, you can drive your reaction into the cooler tones. At 4' in 1:15 Kodak Rapid toner selenium, my AZO prints offer a mild purple hue that bromide papers will not give you. Guiding your toner with weak acids will give you a more sepia warm tone. So, knowing this you can proceed further with AZO chloride paper (I don't know about bromide types); and build a generalized complex of warm and cold tones (not split toned--it is a true complex of colors throughout). What you would do is an incomplete acid formula hypo fix and then tone in a neutral formula. Don't wash between. And the PH will drive your paper into the warmer colors. After this toning, return your print to complete with a alkaline fixer, and retone with a basic PH selenium. These effects can create absolutely beautiful tones that I have never seen on bromide prints. Again, the various hues on your print are governed by the PH of your selenium formula. And, yes, just as you said, your paper will also favor certain colorations. Anyway, you offer a great video, and I am so glad to see tutorials and studies on chemical film/print processing.
Fantastic content! Thank you!
Very useful. You didn't mention temperature for your 5-minute time. There is also a school which, based on lab testing, established years ago that the weaker dilutions and partial toning do not provide the same degree of protection to the less-toned areas, i.e., higher print values, as to the lower. I don;t worry about this a lot, because a properly processed and reasonably well maintained print will outlast us all anyway. Although many of my images have historic subjects, I believe the important ones will survive.
I processed everything at room temperature, about 22C. Selenium toning may not be as archival as it has always been believed, but better than no toning. For archival permanence, gold toning or thiorea based toner (brown toner) may be better in the end.
How does selenium act on RC papers? Would it make them more archival? Or would the coatings prevent anything such as archival qualities or coloring?
@@TheNakedPhotographer I have also wondered how much protection toning would provide if it was done only for 'permanence' and not for color change. I don't tone my prints since I don't have a convenient/sufficiently well ventilated space to do it, so I' wonder what I'm giving up in permanence. Are you aware of any published tests that have been done under lab conditions to determine the relative permanence of toned/untoned prints?
There is a book by Wilhelm about the permanence of color prints, for b&w there are books on print conservation from Kodak that discuss toned prints. There are most likely research papers from Rochester Institute of Technology that look into it, but I don’t know any titles off the top of my head.
Thanks for a very helpful video. What is missing is that you shall use your selenium toner in the well ventilated room and rubber gloves. Take care.
Thanks Greg, informative as always. I rarely tone for longer than 1 min myself (at 1:19) as I usually pull the print as soon as I notice a change. I like the archival property of selenium, but I almost always prefer the untoned color (Ilford FB Mutigrade). I have had some pleasant results from using a very dilute ferri bath after selenium toning tho. It gives a kind of mild sepia effect.
Excellent vid. Thanks
Thank you for the helpful video. I would be curious to see a demo of a split tone process, eg sepia and selenium, if that's something that you occasionally do.
I’ll get there eventually. I want to cover single toners first.
Thank you for your great job.
Amo tus videos, no los dejes de hacer.
Un abrazo desde México.
Gracias
That was a fantastic and very helpful comparison, thank you! I've been mostly using 1:19 when I tone (in MCC 110 and Ilford Classic) but I had yet to try stronger dilutions with Classic (I did with MCC and found it tends to go pink to red - which can be pretty cool sometimes).
Oh likewise, the C-41 towel is fantastic! Mine came in last week. It's great!
Thank you for your support!
Very good! Do you have any videos using toner in the film development?
I’m afraid not
Thanks!
excellent. having dabbled with Selenium toning (a tiny bit), one thing which came off well was the huge number of possible variations and resulting effects. Chance and frustration at the same time… that is why your systematic approach is so helpful!
I did read about a weakening/reversing effect of selenium toning over time (say 2 vs. 5 minutes) in some manuals (say Rollei Selenium), as well as its' effects on different parts of the tonal spectrum: starting with the darker tones and then later reaching the mid and higher tones. Do you concur?
Cheers R.
The split tone effect seen in the WT prints shows this very clearly. If I toned longer, the mid and high tones would turn brown as well. A weaker dilution and longer toning time would give greater control of the color since the reaction would be slower, but eventually all the prints would look the same if toned long enough.
thank you! a very helpful video. I have a stupid question, though: I know that you said that at some point the toning will stop, but could be possible to achieve noticeable tone change with weak dilutions with extended baths? Let's say, 1:19 for half an hour, for example.
You could probably achieve just as much tone at 1:19 as you could with 1:3 given enough time.
@@TheNakedPhotographer that's good to know. I try to cut down as much as possible the use of chemicals or use less toxic ones to look after the environment.
I been trying to achieve acceptable paper development with caffenol or teanol, but the problem is that the mixture stain the paper. You have any ideas in that regard?
They are staining agents. Use something else.
Hi, if the colour hasn't changed much, how do you know it has become more archival?
Selenium is still bonding with the silver to form silver selenide.
Great Video! o/
I've selenium toned for years and now use a 1:9 dilution, including a wash aid, for about 4 minutes. Do you know how many (say 11x14) sheets of paper a gallon of solution will tone, and how long can the solution of toner be stored in air tight containers?
Ilford publishes numbers of 25 prints at 8x10 size per liter when mixed 1:3. That would be approximately 12 11x14 prints. Weaker dilutions would tone fewer, so 1:9, being less than half the toner per liter would be maybe 5 11x14 prints per liter. They also publish storage of 6 months in a full bottle for the working strength solution, 1 month in a partial bottle, and 7 days in an open tray. I would expect Kodak’s toner to perform in the same manner.
@@TheNakedPhotographer thank you
According to toning maestro Tim Rudman, max density is usually achieved after about 2min in 1:9. After that the density increase will actually start to reverse
My densitometer readings did not back this up.
@@TheNakedPhotographer perhaps it's just a perceptual effect as the colour starts to come in. I do notice this happening on Ilford Classic FB (in Adox MCC), but I guess it's maybe not real
I never liked the Green cast of Dektol... my woes disappeared once I switched to Ethol paper Development
Very helpful, thank you for posting this.