A Ranty Discussion: Three Dark Crowns, YA Publishing, and Expressing Opinions on Booktube
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
- Today I'd like to have a discussion in three parts. I'll be talking about my issues with Three Dark Crowns, how publishers are disrespecting the YA audience, and why I felt uncomfortable doing this video in the first place.
-Books Discussed-
Three Dark Crowns by Kendare Blake: amzn.to/37UPgLM
(The above is an affiliate link. Should you choose to purchase, I will receive a very small commission that goes toward the operating expenses for this channel.)
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"That's not a plot twist that's manipulation." yessss preach
"Oftentimes I hold this community to a higher standard, because ... We are book people." Oh, this video! Oh, the perfection of it all!
I want to have this video playing on repeat for the rest of my life. You expressed so many of my thoughts and such an eloquent way, and I just think that so many more people in our community need to hear it. This video was phenomenal, thank you so much.
Oh that is so lovely of you to say. Thank you so much!
I just finished this book and absolutely adored it and I'm shaking in need until I get book 2. Without a doubt the reason this book gets as much negativity it does is because the publisher fucked up and marketed the book as something its not. Any time publishers do that its cheap and aggravating and comes across like they didn't believe it would have done well if they had marketed it honestly. Saying this book is about a fight to the death or comparing it to the Hunger Games is soooo misleading.
I have mixed feelings about the love triangle. He is a trash person and is hurting a character I care about, so I hate it and if that is all it ends up being I'm going to be really upset. However, I got the impression that it's a setup to something bigger which could be cool.
The twist ending shouldn't have been the very last line, that's unnecessary. But there were plenty of clues pointing to it that I thought it would happen so I think it's a good twist- much like the other twist with the other dude.
What hints did you spot cos I was totally surprised 😅
". . . that's a money move" - excactly like the Hobbit trilogy, were a short book was stretched beyond any reason to three movies. Loved the book, saw the first movie and a half of the second and that was enough for me.
I was thinking of that EXACT thing when I finished this book.
Awesome points here. I don't think it's a recent trend. When Doyle killed off Sherlock (and was quite happy to do so), actual men walked around with black armbands and harassed Doyle into bringing him back to life. I've been involved in many types of fandom for almost 20 years, and there have always been people who equate the thing they love with their personhood, and react as if personally attacked when the thing they love is criticized. I believe the vast proliferation of social media, the ability to be anonymous, and the increased capacity of search engines simply helps bring those people to the critics.
I guess my point is, I don't believe there are greater numbers of sensitive people, simply easier means to attack those they disagree with or feel wronged by. I wish "book people" were above this, but we really aren't because we are human and flawed like everyone else.
I don't understand people. I love reviews because I like to hear other people's opinions, especially on books when I don't want to waste time reading a book I know I may not enjoy. Or to hear reasons why I should pick up a book I may not have ever picked up on my own.
I've had people dislike books I've loved and I don't see the purpose in defending the book. I liked it for a reason and whatever their reasoning for disliking the book won't change my mind. Just like me arguing with someone about why their opinion is "wrong" won't change theirs. Every book can't be written for every person.
Also I hate when a book is unnecessarily made into a trilogy. Often times those books can clearly be wrapped up in one book, and the other two following books are never as good. I've avoided many books lately when I find out they are a part of a trilogy.
As someone who read the ENTIRE series, I agree, The first two books could have been squeezed into one novel. However the 3rd and 4th books were very much needed as two separate books in the series and
SPOILER
in the second book The love interest dies in front of both girls causing the them a lot of trauma and to start to work as a team.
Besides the obvious exploitation from the publishers not Kendare Blake. Past the first book, it was an excellent fast paced and exciting series.
I have to agree the first two could’ve been one big book, and it does start slow, as well as the love triangle could’ve been handled a little better in the beginning. Honestly I enjoyed this series very much and love the concept.
I haven't read Three Dark Crowns but I have similar feelings towards authors/publishers using their popularity to spew crap. I recently read Aleph by Coelho. If he didn't have such success with the Alchemist, and offered it to a publisher as a debut, it would have been thrown out. I think similar thoughts were floating around booktube about the Harry Potter "play" .....I have a passionate hatred for the existence of books that are ONLY there because the authors did something good in the past. It's the same as stretching it out for a whole series. Someone not too long ago figured out people like series, and now that's the goal. I have mad respect for Neil Gaiman for working on one book at a time in totally different genres without thinking of making it a series...like he's trying things out, but he's not capitalizing on the fact that people like him. I hope that doesn't change.
I agree with you about Coelho. I have read 4 of his books and I just found them extremely similar and in the end I didn't like any one of them.
Infinite Text I agree with you ladies! I read the Alchemist, and completely loved it... and I was thinking to buying more of his books. I read Aleph, and felt that it was the same story different title. That’s why I have an issue reading/loving first time Authors for me and wanting to continue reading their works.
Sorry I don't mean to be like oh you're wrong but I just felt I needed to offer a correction because The Alchemist was written by Paulo Coelho and The Aleph is a short story written by Jorge Luis Borges.
you are correct! "The Aleph" is a beautiful short story by Borges (wonderful writer), however Aleph is a novel by Coelho.
Just finished this book and couldn't find anyone who felt the same way I do about it... until now. PREACH IT GIRL I FEEL YA
I don’t quite understand why people would leave mean comments on anyone’s channel. I look on booktube to find what they are reading/loving at the moment, and if they read a book that I’ve read and enjoyed it as well, hey that’s good! And if they didn’t, I’m glad that they at least share their reason on why they didn’t, and that’s okay too.
I watch your channel not because of our same interest in books, since I don’t really read non-fiction but slowly trying to get there.... I watch your channel because you share honest opinions and your personality/voice are great to watch while I’m drinking my coffee and getting ready to go to work! Your choices on books are new to me, but I seem to enjoy them.
I also share the same dislike on the way publishers put out their works. And to be honest, that’s why I watch your videos and other booktubers, because the publishers may say one thing, an you guys another and I could base my opinion on whether to spend money on it or not, based on the opinions on readers and not on sellers.
Hey - First time commenter on your channel here, (long-time lurker though!), and just wanted to say that I completely agree with you. YA novels seem to have seen a massive growth since around the release of Twilight; the publishing industry seems to have jumped on board, and are just throwing out a bunch of mediocre novels because they know they'll make money.
Also, it's definitely true about people seemingly lashing out at others due to difference of opinions on favourite media. I think it may be because we feel so emotive and have associations with that 'thing' and so when others didn't enjoy it I wonder if people feel that their emotions and connections to that 'thing' are being discredited or hurt. It's definitely something we can all learn to actually step away from!
Really interesting and thought provoking video!
I appreciate that you made this video, and didn't try to sugar coat it or make it seem like you had to apologize for feeling this way. I've definitely noticed a similar trend regarding others possessiveness and defensiveness of the media they consume, almost to an unhealthy level. Everyone is different in some way, and is going to find something that they like or dislike that others feel differently on. It's just how things are. When it comes to subjective things, like the media we prefer, no one is right or wrong. It's all just preference, and my preference doesn't make your preference any less valid. I think it also has a lot to do with the anonymity of having an online presence. I feel like many discussions would not escalate as they do if they were had in person. When we're all behind these walls the internet provides, it's easy to lash out without a filter or regard for the person on the other end. And, when we're online and no one knows our personality and history, I suppose it feels like our "likes" are what do define us. It's a sad thing to think about. I hope we can find ways to progress past this kind of thinking so that we understand it's actually a great thing that everyone has personal taste. Thanks for taking a step in using your platform to talk about it.
As a side note, I completely agree about Three Dark Crowns. There was a ton of hype around this book, and the concept pulled me in, even though I don't read mostly YA. I picked up a copy, but became extremely frustrated at the amount of "fluff" and the fact that it really felt like the first half of a book that an editor never got to see. It could have been such a great book, and it has good underlying structure, but it was just not good. I saw that the second one came out, but I couldn't bring myself to spend the time reading it.
Sugar coating isn't my way. Respectful dialogue is, though & I hope I brought that in this video.
As I'm not an avid YA reader, I don't pay much attention to the hyped books in the YA-sphere but I'm not surprised TDC was hyped. Hell, I was hyped to read it after I read the synopsis. But you're right, there was a ton of fluff. A reader shouldn't be able to look at over HALF of the plot points of the book and ask, "what was the point of that in the larger story?" I don't know what the editing process was like for this book but if I was its editor (not saying I'm qualified) I would have MANGLED the manuscript within an inch of it's literary life. Red pen EVERYWHERE.
Although you have really good points, I actually really like all the “useless” subplots😂😂 I think it adds so much more to the characters. I do think though that the love triangle is ridicules (PS I’ve only read the first book so don’t judge my opinions too harshly lol)
Lauren D I personally love the books! I really like character development. Honestly I didn’t think it went slow and I enjoyed it and wanted to read more. Not really because of a “cliffhanger”(I personally don’t think it was really a cliffhanger) though. I just really liked it😂 the next books are really good too
Thank you for actually making this video, Olive, especially given the fact that you didn't necessarily want to get into the more heated discussion. Just the other day Jen from Insert Literary Pun did a tag and talked about the numbers on her channel suddenly bringing a lot of negativity and hostility to her videos. It is so awful to see this kind of thing on booktube channels especially when you personally couldn't think of a reason for someone to be this vicious. "People sometimes treat their favorite type of media as an extension of themselves." What a perfect point you made here, Olive.
I completely agree with you about the tendency of YA publishers to milk the story to the point where there is no more story to tell but we still have 2 books to publish within that series. It also speaks to the habit of publishers of signing authors for a series of books from the get-go. Not contracting them on a book that might turn into a series if the author expands on the story but rather telling them they have to produce a series. How many books have a text on the cover "first book in a new trilogy" and there is no sigh of the second book anywhere? I believe that there are many authors who do not have their entire series planned and would rather have written a standalone but the numbers are appealing. There is that pressure to write series and have the next Harry Potter or Hunger Games in your publishing house or on your author resume.
Thnx, hon ^^
On a separate note, I have felt that visceral reaction when a friend not just disagrees about something I like, but disparages it (meaning they're just going "oh, I hate it; it's dumb" rather than having a discussion). I try to walk away if I can so I can get a hold of myself before talking to them. Even though I feel that reaction, I don't have to act on it. It makes much more sense to do like you said, to talk about it and learn.
Amen to this 👌🏻
I personnally don't care at all that someone doesn't like my favourite books, I often don't like the books others love. It doesn't really matter.
I wish more people felt like that.
Preach!! Unfortunately I'd like to say that this attitude is just an adolescent thing. I mean I was sort of like that as a teenager but I outgrew it. But it seems that this mentality seems more of a consequence of fandoms in general. RUclips might bring out the more toxic elements because well it's RUclips. But we should be able to discuss differing opinions of our book or movie. That's what makes life interesting.
I think the urge to defend something we love has always been there BUT I also think it has only become prevalent because of social media. We used to discuss our opinions in our own circle of family and friends. With the explosion of social media and the urge to share our thoughts to a much wider audience I think it has also made people feel freer to express their opposite opinion. I also think that we do not always consider how that opinion sounds to the person we are disagreeing with. It is very easy to sound like we are bashing someone when all we meant to say is 'sorry you didn't enjoy it as much as I did here are my reasons for loving it I hope we can find common ground on something else'. I fell out with a very good friend many years ago through a text conversation. Once we had both calmed down we talked the conversation through face to face and we had a much different outcome.
On the publishing issue. I have never taken any notice of the manipulation by authors and/or publishers to draw out a book to make it into a series. I have read series that I have thought 'oh conr if you spent less time telling me about this you could have paid more attention to that and had a shorter and much richer book'. I never thought of it as manipulation to make more money though. This may be something I pay closer attention to in future.
I also love hearing negative opinions as well as positive as it gives a much more rounded and balanced view when deciding if something is possibly right for me.
I love having conversations with people who have different opinions about books that I love. However, I don't want to have a conversation with someone who refuses to see the other side. You explained it perfectly, how people have the mindset that if you don't like books that they love you somehow don't like them. The most frustrating part is that the only thing they can say to defend their opinion is to shout, "you didn't understand the book"... Even more frustrating is the disclaimers people have to put on videos when discussing an unpopular opinion. People should be allowed to discuss their opinions without feeling the need to protect themselves from the crazies.
Amen sister! Exactly why we never see a YA chunker, publishers make insane efforts to break up books so what should be 1 cleanly edited novel at 700 pages ends up being 3 books unedited at 900 pages. As soon as I hear the word “Trilogy” I tread carefully because these concepts leak into adult fiction too.
So I really liked this book and this series.. but you are spot-on about holding opinions and the right to express them, as well as folks taking an opinion about something waaaaaay too personally. You’re also spot-on about the manipulative and exploitative nature of the publication industry. I haven’t seen any of your other videos, and stumbled on to your channel by sheer accident, but I’ll definitely be watching for more. Even if I don’t agree with your opinion about this one book, you clearly have a solid head on your shoulders! Keep at it girl!
You have some very good points that make a lot of sense. I do enjoy YA from time to time though it's not my favorite genre. I get tired of the constant tropes that seem to follow and some of the series could have been wrapped up in one book. If a story has enough information to make a series out of that doesn't seem really stretched, then I say go for it. I love reading series in general but I want there to be meat in that story and not just half chewed bones with crumbs so to speak. There seems to be so many publishers that are pushing for stories to get out there but not really checking to see if it's a quality story or not. I read to be entertained but I also like to read to be informed. Being a bookworm is a big part of who I am and when I read, I want to hope that the stories I read are what I will enjoy whether people agree with my reading choices or not. It is hard to express an opinion about some books because some people seem ready to attack whether you mention someone specifically or not. We are all adults here and I'd like to think we can express our opinions honestly without needing to single someone out just because they disagree with material that many people may enjoy. What fun would it be if everyone enjoyed the same books at all times?
PREEEEEEEEEEEACH. I sometimes feel like I'm less sensitive than others because recommending books you love and having people go "Ew gross no" is a huge part of being a librarian. But yeah, you're totally right on everything.
I love this whole video! And yes, I too have come to really enjoy hearing why people don't like books I've loved. I feel oftentimes when I love a book, I find it really hard to think about it critically. So hearing someone else's opinion gives me a sort of starting place to look at a book from a new angle.
And I love series, but YES. Just because a book is fantasy doesn't mean it needs to made into a trilogy or even longer. It depends on the story, standalones are also awesome. I would love for fantasy to have more standalone books. I don't necessarily want every book I start to also be the start of a ten book series lol!
Thank you for letting me talk about your experience briefly! I thought about including a screenshot of the tweet but as much of an ass as that person was, it would seem like shaming them which I don't like :/
But I figured you would have an opinion on the topic of series since you're such a big SFF reader. It's one of the things that keeps me from getting more into fantasy - I CANNOT commit to those massive series, especially when every book is so L O N G. Like, I don't even want to try Robin Hobb since they're massive books and one series just seems to feed into another...and another. Everyone says her books are so good but.....eh....I just can't.
There have definitely been opinions that I have been afraid to express on our channel. I'm still surprised that my review of The Kite Runner hasn't had a host of negative comments. Thankfully, we haven't experienced much negativity, but I do see it a lot on Twitter and on larger channels, especially with YA. I understand that when you love a book, you can feel like that book is a part of you, or if you identify with a character, it can feel like that character is you in a way, so when someone says they disliked it, it can feel personal, but I think everyone needs to slow down and think before they comment on things online. People often have an emotional response and don't think it through logically before attacking someone for their opinions or beliefs. Great discussion! -Sue
I won't say I censor myself but I'm careful with how I word things sometimes. I was VERY careful in the Harry Potter series I did (which didn't make a damn bit of difference, they still got massively hated on). I'm glad you guys haven't had much of a problem with negativity. And of course, books can be incredibly personal. When someone doesn't like things I do, it's more like "aww, that's a shame" then "HOW DARE YOU," though. People definitely act on the upfront emotion they feel. Meanwhile, it's a good idea 100% of the time to cool off before acting on ANY emotion in ANY situation. But such wisdom escapes some people.
Thanks for bringing up the incivility topic. It seems to be happening all over social media. One of the greatest attributes of democracy is that everyone can express their own opinions. But we seem to have gotten to the point where some folks seem to think their opinion is the only valid one and any opposing views are demonized or worse, they express their opinion in a drastically rude or demeaning way. I think all areas of discussion these days could benefit from respectful disagreement...
I just stumbled across your review because I, too, felt heated about this book. Let me just say....you speak SO eloquently and present your thoughts so cohesively and clearly. You are a goddess. and your lipstick is on POINT. I had to sub. I adore you! :) Thank you for speaking your mind on this one!
I ranted about this in February about Unearthed. It was not a complete story and it should have been. My channel is tiny so I didn’t get any comment on it. I’m glad you brought it up because Im sick of it. I’ve also avoided filming book reviews because I just don’t want to deal with people. It’s a real shame. I’m also glad I don’t need to read Three Dark Crowns now.
Hi Olive thank you so much for being so honest and saying what you think in a very intelligent and succinct way! I'm a blogger and like you, if I have an opinion about a book, even if it happens to be critical, I'm going to put it out there. Luckily I haven't had much negativity back from it (yet!) but I still feel like I have to put a disclaimer in each critical review I do i.e. "Just because I didn't get on with it doesn't mean you won't! This is only my personal opinion." etc. I just don't understand why people can't chill with the fact that we all might like different stuff? Isn't that the beauty of what makes us all individuals?? 🙄
I enjoyed your ranty video, you have some very good points about YA publishing! I haven’t read this series but from the sound of it, I would’ve been as frustrated as you if I read it! I hate to be tricked into buying next book by an unnecessary cliffhanger. Unfortunately, I’ve seen this tactic in other genres, especially by self published authors ☹️
Oh Gosh, this is perfect. It is so true how personally people take the media they consume. I had a similar situation with a review I made of Love in the Time of Cholera where people basically told me I needed to learn to read literature or otherwise go back to reading "twilight", because I discussed some problems I had with it. 🙄
Oh god that's ridiculous that someone said that to you. There are a few authors here on booktube that attract ALL the mansplainers (Murakami & Marquez are two big ones). One of my most popular videos is a review of a book that is popular on reddit and I want to delete the shit out of it some days.
Just finished this book. It took forever. Oh my God. Totally agree with you - great concept, piss poor execution.
100% agree with you here! There's so much about YA publishing that's fantastic, but I do think they take advantage of their audience's enthusiasm at times in a really manipulative way. YA ended up becoming the reason I find it very hard to read series now, because I read so many disappointing ones during my teens and early twenties that I don't have faith that a series has been written because it needed to be a series rather than because the publisher wanted to make some more cash dollar dollars. Please do continue to give your honest opinions, I love to hear them! I'm lucky that I have very friendly debates with people I know about the books we read and how we feel about them, but if someone hears me mention I'm not the biggest Marvel fan they'll try to tell me all the reasons why I should be. It's great that you like the thing, stop wasting time when you could be liking the thing and I could be liking another thing trying to make me like your thing! Great video as always! :)
I just finished reading this book. You mentioned it in your Honest Booktuber tag video, so I came to find the video. I had some specific issues with this book too, the way it was ended made me crazy! The whole concept of the book is really interesting, but I agree that it felt like it was lengthened unnecessarily.
Honestly, I felt the book was a drag as well. It was so lengthy however, I was so in tuned with what was happening that I couldn't put it down. The ending upset me as well, simply for the fact that it took the book so long to reach a climax.
I'm a fan of Three Dark Crowns, and I agree with you on some of your points in your video on some of your thoughts on the book, and your rants about YA publishing, and what's going on in the internet lately. Especially with trying to tell your opinions on something and having other people take it so personally. I honestly really like watching videos like this because, I like to see what other people think on my favorite books or movies. Good on you for making this
I love Three Dark Crowns, but the marketing is so misleading.
Came back to this video from a black hole on Goodreads - agree with you. Differing book opinions are great. Without them how will you ever be surprised. You can expect to hate something based on other review and love it. There is a positive to this which people forget. I get the sensitivity - I am always reluctant to express a criticism when someone has loved the media (like my best friend) - but I consider it an exercise in expressing your opinion politely and civilly.
Thank you for bringing this up. I listened to a podcast recently on how professors are feeling the same pressure, sometimes in the opposite direction. Students won't like a book and then demand to have the book removed from the course reading list. It's negatively effecting academic training. Honestly, I've never heard of most of the books you discuss. I'm mostly looking for nonfiction that can teach me something, but I'm open to reading fiction if it happens to strike a chord. I understand that I don't read as much as you do so I will never be able to read everything you do. I will have to pick the books that most interest me out of the many you recommend. There are no guarantees that I will like something you do, but so far, I like your selections. If I don't like something, I won't yell at you. Keep on keeping on. Thank you for your dedication to increasing literacy in Internet strangers. It helps a lot.
As a writer, and one who writes primarily YA Fantasy, I agree that if the story is one book, it should stay one book. Most of my ideas are stand-alone. Though, I am indie/self published, and plan to stay that way for the most part, and thus have that freedom.
I just finished The Black Witch, and I couldn't help but remember this video, not just afterward, but while I was finishing it up -- it definitely falls into that category of manipulating the reader by cutting off the book at a major plot twist, and it doesn't resolve any of the plot threads it's set up before it does this. In effect, this book is everything I hate about YA on all levels and reinforces why I typically stay away from it. That said, I read it for the sake of my friend who loved it, so while I completely agree that your favorite books are not YOU and it shouldn't be such a personal thing... I'm still feeling that hesitancy to tell her that I hated it, because I don't want to be mean 🙃
Honestly, the issues that you speak about here are the reasons I won't create a book review channel or blog. I once shared a story about my dad and traveling on someone's post, and I got attacked by trolls - for no good reason. People seem to think that because they are hiding behind a screen they have the freedom to be hateful in a way they wouldn't in person because of social niceties and mores. I know this is going to happen and don't want to put myself out there.
I completely agree!! I like the book but it’s super slow and lack luster with the details. It’s like I waiting for this big thing for a WHILE. Then a love triangle is thrown in and it’s super frustrating.
I personally loved the trilogy. But I agree with you in saying that it should have been a stand alone book. I think it was drawn out and slow because she was trying to make it a series. I personally mostly read it because of the characters which I found very deep and complex. I completely agree with you that the way that publishers manipulate their audience. I think that there have been a lot of very successful stand alone ya novels. But I think that publishers are always looking for the biggest bottom line as possible. Which I find sad as I think it should be about the books not the money made. I think you handled this subject very well❤️❤️❤️❤️
Also sorry this was really rambly
I honestly think this has to do with numbers more than anything else. We are book people sure but we are also internet people and where there is a group of people enjoying something on the internet there is the probability that one of those people is gonna get mad at you for virtually any thing. Thats why obscurity is safety here because the less people you have watching you the more free you are to express your opinion. I can feel free to make rant reviews all i want because the only people watching are my friends who want to hear my genuine opinion and discuss it with me but the more subs you have the more these people expand from just your friends into "anyone" . And with a group of "Anyone" there are always people ready to argue instead of discuss. Great video! Hopefully you can find a more satisfying YA fantasy! ( I suggest Graceling, its a full story i promise 😉 )
My bestfriend doesn't like my favorite book. She DNF'd it. Do I care? A little, because that book is so close to my heart, but I also understand that books are subjective. Art in a whole is subjective, and so to criticize someone over their opinion is disgusting. I say that knowing full well I did that when I was younger, but now I know I was in the wrong.
I love how perfectly you articulated your thoughts; perfection! I just subscribed.
this is such a great video!!
I love a ranty video! Your opinions are always so well expressed and thoughtful. And I love the humor you bring to this discussion.
I have only just arrived at your channel and this video has convinced me to subscribe. If a reviewer is made to feel they can't give an honest opinion of a work, then the whole process is pointless. And don't even get me started on novels that don't tell a complete and satisfying story, but are just setups for the next book...
Welcome! Happy that you've found your way here. I completely agree, a reviewer must feel safe to give their opinion (in a respectful way, of course) or else we may as well not have book reviews. I want to see this community become that place where reviewers don't have to fear nasty comments, emails, et al if they say they don't like something.
YES. I have read so many trilogies or series where the first one is just the setup. It's gotten to the point where I will wait for the series to be out so I can marathon read it because in reality, it should be one book or maybe a duology. Some first books that are actually legit: The Thief, Illuminae
Oh my, I agree so much with you!! We are not "wrong" in our opinions, they are OUR opinions. I love to discuss my favorite and my "hated" books. And I'm so nervous sometimes when I speak about a book I disliked in a video, I know people will be touchy. I made a video about the reasons I dislike romance in general, and I had people telling me it was real and I couldn't say it wasn't (I never by the way). I'm like you, mostly positive in my videos, but when I don't like, I won't say I did just to please everyone. It is not the point. Honestly, thank you so much for this video!!And that's true that there are too many trilogies/series just to sell. And that's sad. I just finished a YA series, and I realize the three books were the same, just not with the same characters. So disappointed. I love series, when they are good, really good. I'll read Three Dark Crowns, it is on my TBR - still hope I'll love it haha
So well said! If authors feel they must write multiple volumes in a fantasy world, I wish they’d consider doing companion novels instead of series. I find series often get stale if they go on too long, especially ones that go beyond a trilogy.
Good point! I'm on board for companion novels.
i’ve read the first three books in this series and so far i’ve enjoyed them and will read the final book, but i totally agree that it is long and drawn out for no reason. i feel like this series could’ve definitely been put into two books instead of four, especially the first two. they could’ve 100% been made into one book and i get why someone would be frustrated and maybe not finish the series. i think the only way i’m finishing this series is my love for some of the characters.
This is great!! I understand your points for why you didn’t enjoy the book. I also agree that they could have probably put the whole series in one book and been fine. I did very much enjoy three dark crowns and the sequel. I picked it up because I found the plot to be super interesting. While it by far was not the best book ever I found it to be fun and I liked the characters. I found it a entertaining easy read which is what I am looking for when I pick up YA. I love that you addressed that people are allowed to disagree without it being personal, it’s a problem in all forms of social media. Everyone has different tastes and that’s ok. Keep it up! I love your channel.
Thank you for making this video! So many people seem to confuse "personal opinion" with "undeniable fact"... It's so puerile to attack someone for having a different point of view - especially a book, for crying out loud!
Also, I completely agree with you about this apparent obsession with making a trilogy out of nearly every darn book (I call it trilogy-itis).
Hope your new traveling work life goes well😻Before I retired I traveled a lot and found it great for my reading life...there is something magic about being in a solo hotel room, just YOU and your BOOK!🙋♀️💕📚
I agree with all your points. the fact that you have to explain this to some people however is quite depressing. this behavior doesn't seem to apply to booktube exclusively. it says a lot about the mind set of the youtube community as a whole and may be the state of humanity in general.
I agree so much! There have been several books, not just YA, that come out, are marketed as stand-alones, do well and then are suddenly series or trilogies. I have no proof, but I thought when Three Dark Crowns was first published, it was a stand-alone. Similarly, last fall I read Girl Waits with Gun with Amy Stewart. This was published in 2015 as a stand-alone. I was very excited to read it, and finally did read it, and I LOVED it. I highly recommend it. When I went to review it on Goodreads, I discovered there are two more books with a third on the way! Perhaps the author had these in the pipeline because they were published rather quickly, but why are books marketed as a stand-alone and then turned into series? It really bothers me.
i also feel like maybe creators have a different standard of response to viewers sometimes, as in there are people who are only looking to find others with similar tastes or views as theirs without wanting to expand the discussions on certain topics etc etc, so you get a lot of immature or close-minded responses, especially when it comes to YA books because people get so attached to the characters. Kiera Knightly said of her role as Elizabeth Bennet that she felt like it was an intimidating role only because so many people feel like they own her as a character, and their version is always better than anything else she could bring. i feel that has a lot to do with it as well.
I think part of the reason people are so defensive over negative opinions of things they love is the existence of people who *will* bash anyone who likes something that they don't. I saw a video where someone straight up said that fans of a certain author were basically trash. That's not okay either, and while I admit it doesn't happen as often in the book community (that I've seen), it happens pretty frequently in other areas of life, especially on the internet. And sometimes it's difficult to tell whether the person's opinion is limited to whatever it is they're talking about, or whether it includes a negative view of people who have the opposite opinion.
A thoroughly thought out critique is going to get more understanding than simply saying, 'This is trash, I hated it, it sucks, etc.' One is far more aggressive than the other (and doesn't really invite open discussion) and, as a result, is going to breed more defensiveness. Not to say that some people won't get defensive over even a politely worded critique, but it is less likely to devolve into people spewing hate and vitriol at each other.
Amen! I read Three Dark Crowns, had the same complaints you did, but made the mistake of reading the sequel and it was worthless. Same issues only worse because now the series was being expanded even further, it has like four books plus two novellas. Blatant money grab. I think a big problem is that the biggest YA booktubers are kind of in the pocket of the publishers and are so unwilling to say negative things about books for fear of not getting paid or sent free books anymore, and they set the tone for the community like it or not. There's so many booktubers that I have to do weird mental math with now (like if they rate something 4 stars it's really a 2 star read but they just don't want to say it). This comment is rambly but it's frustrating!
I 100% agree! Best video I've seen on booktube in ages. Keep it up
Amazing video! I agree wholeheartedly with what you said - it makes me so enraged when you can clearly see a book that would’ve been a good standalone, but the publishers want to squeeze more money out of the audience by splitting it into more and more books.
On that note, I have a recommendation for you! I also read Three Dark Crowns and was majorly disappointed by it, mostly because I was also in love with the concept and felt that it didn’t deliver at all. However, I recently read “The Queens of Innis Lear” which is a fantasy King Lear retelling based around the same idea (three sisters competing for a crown) and it was done SO much better! Not only in terms of pacing but when it comes to characters and their relationships as well. You should definitely check it out.
I always love to see criticism for my absolute favorite books, because it makes me see the stories in a new light and acknowledge flaws that I might’ve been blinded to before. One of my faves of all time is A Little Life by Hanya Yanagihara and I was so enthralled and mesmerized by it that when I began to found negative reviews for it, I was dumbfounded as to how someone could not love that book as much as I did. However, once I actually heard the criticism - I even found myself agreeing with them! I could see where people were coming from, but even though I could recognize these things they saw as flaws, to me they didn’t negatively impact my reading experience. And at the end, that’s what it boils down to - reading is something incredibly subjective, and no two persons will feel exactly the same way about something because the way you see things is shaped by your personal experiences as well, not just by what’s offered to you on the page. It’s actually my favorite aspect of the whole booktube community; learning how other people have connected and reacted to some books I love or loathe.
Anyway this has already become too long! lol Loved this video, you always word your thoughts so well. :)
Thank you for putting my feelings into some context! I read Truly Devious by Maureen Johnson last week and was infuriated by the ending, but I couldn't say why. This is exactly why! The mystery was not solved and a second one that was thrown in wasn't solved either, and the last sentence is one of those plot twist cliffhangers. It makes me so mad that I have to wait for two more books to finish out the mystery. And I don't know why she did it either! Her Shades of London series is wonderful and works much better because even if it leaves something hanging, it feels like a natural ending and I'm okay waiting for the next book. So I don't know why she changed with this book.
I spent maybe 20 minutes rereading the last chapter because I was freaking lost. I thought I was just missing the solution. I had to google to see if I could find “spoilers” to explain it to me and realized it was in another book 😡 like the build up was too long in one book let alone to just keep going
Thank you for posting this! I read a variety of different genres but fell out of love with YA because of the reasons you mentioned here. I found myself frustrated at how some books contained nothing but cliche plot twist after cliche plot twist, drowning out any semblance of story flow. I felt the writing was rushed; that no one truly cared about the story on the pages. So I stepped away from YA.
I agree with you that these conversations need to happen, and that so many people are too quick to get their feelings hurt. Please keep posting these type of videos. I hope it makes readers look just a little deeper at their reading choices and habits.
I so agree with you about the YA trilogies & people's opinions. I don't read too much YA, but I did enjoy three dark crowns. I needed something easy & light ;)
I appreciated this video, mainly because I feel like people have forgotten how to debate without getting emotionally involved. It's a skill that needs to be taught and embraced, and recognized, because so many times people get into "debates" without taking the time to separate themselves from the argument first. So good!
I'm with you on book series, that's why I tend to avoid them in the first place. Especially when it's not advertised as a Book 1. Series books need to stand alone to be any good. The continuing books in a series all need to stand alone & together they create a fuller picture. There's no exceptions to this. Adding something near the end that causes the book to be incomplete is weak writing & a cash grab. (Good point Olive that YA readers do deserve better.) A series should be far more complex than a stand alone book. That's what makes it a series, not that it's like a TV show cutting to a commercial at the most intense moment. Great video!
PERFECTLY stated. If a book is part of a series, I expect rich, detailed world building and a plot that doesn't feel like the author is making it up as they go along. I tend to become a commitment phobic when a book is presented as a series and now with my present feelings on how publishers are handling them...I'm staying FAR FAR away for a good long while.
you gained yourself a subscriber with those 1st 3min of the video!! yo are soo right
We just need more of this, and more honesty. I'm sure publishers know there's not enough content in most YA series, and yet they still do it and present rubbish. I agree with it all, and would love to see a lot more RUclipsrs/reviewers/bloggers do the same. Well done!
Bring it!! And I haven't read Three Dark Crowns, but I can see how it could be frustrating!!
Well stated ... I think it mostly depends on the eye of the beholder ... sad to say sometimes we can't see past our own noses.
I am trying to do better with not criticizing people's tastes! My favorite books ever are Jurassic Park and Dracula. Most people I know or see on social don't like them or struggle to read them. I get it! They can be dry, and have very difficult language for a lot of people. I struggle with fantasy, and that is mind-boggling to a lot of people.
I usually don't read series for the same reasons as you, but I think the one genre they really work well in are in romance. Romance has been mass market for long enough that I think the genre has developed its rules so that money moves don't come at the expense of the writing. Many romance series will follow some particular world over multiple books, and these worlds may include some kind of long-term narrative that requires multiple books to understand. In most series, each individual book follows one particular couple, which basically means there has to be a complete, well-plotted story arc.
This structure is reliable as a reader, but it's also a great way to make money. The author can build up goodwill towards particular characters and hint at potential future couplings, basically advertising future books while also telling the story at hand. There is also an opportunity to revisit old pairings and get "updates" on them in later books. But because each book has to follow a particular romance arc, it still needs to follow the rules of pacing and plotting that I think are missing from some of these YA series. In contrast, there are a few romance series that will follow one couple over multiple books, and I think those struggle more with consistency and coherence, particularly in later books when you can often feel the author's steam wear out.
Anyway that was a whole 2 paragraphs of romance series thoughts to say that I really enjoyed this discussion both on twitter and youtube, and I'm glad you made this video!
I haven't read much (really any) romance so it's interesting to hear your take on this. I would really like to read a couple romance series to see how series can be done in a better way since I very much trust your opinion. Any suggestions of where to start?
Hey sorry for the delayed response (shakes fist at how bad RUclips is for conversations)...I've put three suggestions here for romance series from different romance subgenres that I think can be good introductions. These series are all 3-4 books, so fairly manageable (I hate series that go on for a bajillion books). I can't promise that you'll love them, but I think they can help someone new to romance pinpoint what they're looking for out of a romance series. Also, this is probably going to get long because I am physically incapable of keeping myself from rambling about this stuff.
The Rule of Scoundrels series by Sarah Maclean: Sarah Maclean has written three Regency romance series. The series are all set in the same world, so you'll see some characters pop up across them, but each series is primarily contained to one particular cast. I'd recommend starting with her Rule of Scoundrel series, which is the second series she wrote. It's stronger than her first series, and it's set in a gambling den, which I love. The order is A Rogue by Any Other Name, One Good Earl Deserves a Lover, No Good Duke Goes Unpunished, and Never Judge a Lady by her Cover. You don't have to read them in that order, but I'd recommend saving Never Judge a Lady for last. It's my favorite, and I think the payoff is greater if you wait for it.
The Off the Grid series by Alyssa Cole: This is a (sort of) post-apocalyptic series that starts with all the electricity in the world shutting off. The order is Radio Silence, Signal Boost, and Mixed Signals. I recommend reading these books in order because there is an overall arc to them about this whole electricity-getting-turned-off thing that will make much more sense if you follow the plot across books. Alyssa Cole is probably the most versatile romance writer right now too, so if you like this series, you'll have a number of other books from other romance genres that she's dabbled in to read.
Forbidden Hearts by Alisha Rai: This is a super soapy contemporary romance series with family feuds and secrets and tattoo artists and all that good stuff. Order is Hate to Want You, Wrong to Need You, and Hurts to Love you. I would recommend starting with Hate to Want You, and the other two are a little more up to you depending on how intrigued you are.
YES to all of this!
Honestly the publishing industry annoys me for a lot of reasons, but the promoting of subpar YA books is a big one for me. It’s literally taking advantage of a younger audience, and I have a big problem with that. For me it started with Twilight. I was 17 when that book released and I was so confused about its success, because that book was garbage. Young readers deserve better. And the publishing industry shouldn’t be cashing in on them by publishing watered down stories that actually could have been decent novels, if only they’d just invested the time into revision.
Being unable to cope with differing opinions is a problem across the board. I think it’s rooted in insecurity. People don’t know who they are without the things they love, and so it’s easy to offend them by disliking something they feel strongly about. I see this problem a lot with writers, too. Many of them see any criticism on their work as a personal attack. Some writers even refuse to edit their work, because “you must not get it” if you don’t like it, and how they wrote it is “truly them.” The problem in that line of thinking is that it makes writers the sum of their work. Again, an issue of insecure identity. Anything we love, anything we create, anything at all, is separate from who we are as people.
I think the hate is the reason I never started a channel. I don't take hate well, and just try to keep it out of my life. I have to say I do sometimes get upset when people don't like my favourite books, but I also understand that everyone has different reading tastes. You can't force someone to like what you like. I'm certainly not going to attack anyone for not liking what I like.
Always nice to watch your discussion videos Olive. They always give me something to think about.
I like to hear negative reviews of books I read and liked. It gives me opportunity to think about the books from different angles and oftentimes I agree in hindsight and I just didn't notice while reading it
Not everything is for everybody. We just have to let people have opinions. We can't always take something disliking something that you have personally enjoyed as an attack on your person whether that be books, music, movies or any form of entertainment you derive pleaasure from. You have to let people be.
I don't make youtube videos but I did a couple of years back. I only post my thoughts on books onto goodreads. I recently read the third book of the mortal instruments by Cassandra Clare and I cannot stand those books. I wrote a very negative review on my goodreads and I was almost reluctant to post it because I don't want someone to attack me based on my thoughts. I honestly think putting your own opinions out there can be terrifying. All you have to do is run into one person who loves a book you don't and its now a fight. Reading is subjective and a lot of people refuse to see that.
I enjoyed hearing this discussion. I agree with your statement that a few YA trilogies could do with being one book - so often we see readers complain that a second book felt like filler or a bridge to the final book, and that the third book is where all the action takes place. When I switched to reading primarily adult fiction I welcomed the fact that I could read one book and be done. If a book is part of a trilogy there’s every chance I’ll be a different person by the time the third book is released and I will no longer view the story in the same fashion.
It is definitely a money spinner. A book is no longer allowed to simply be a book but we have to think about potential movies and merchandise, how can we make fans of this book fork out cash to prove they are truly invested in the literature? This may be incredibly pessimistic of me, and perhaps fans do enjoy having a badge, or a sticker, or a scented candle with a tenuous link to the world.
Of course publishing is a money-making business and I don’t wish to take the conversation to that place.
I share negative opinions of books I read. My closest friend and I rarely agree on books and we have remained friends because this promotes discussion, and means that when we do eventually discover a book we agree on then it’s that much more special.
It irks me when folk don’t allow a person a different opinion to their own. When I was at school another student punched me in the face because I expressed the opinion that I didn’t like a band they liked. This achieved nothing. I now had a bruised face, and the knowledge of that person’s character.
Friendly discussion and debate has a vital place in the analysis of fiction in my opinion, and when people want everyone to share their opinion, to have some sort of Booktube utopia in which we all agree on the same book, they are always going to be disappointed.
When someone you like gives a negative review a book you like, it doesn’t mean you have to attack them to prove yourself worthy of being a fan.
(My apologies for going on so long, I found I had much to say.)
You perfectly summed up exactly how I felt when I’d finished Three Dark Crowns! Great video 👏
Totally 100% agree
I still gave the book 3/5 stars because I overall enjoyed it
You made a lot of great points in this video. I personally love to hear what someone thinks of a book - the good, the bad, and the ugly even if it differs from my opinion. Although, I've definitely fallen into the trap of identifying with some books too much. I recommended a book that a Book Tuber not only didn't like but ended up DNF'ing. At first I was taken a back but then I took a step back to say she didn't like the book and I loved the book and it's all ok. I do shy away from putting any negative comments about a book that I didn't like on a video for fear it may be taken the wrong way. I may mean it as a discussion point but others may seeing it as trolling or provoking negativity. Online correspondence are really hard to get right so no one gets offended except to not make a comment at all. I hope Book Tubers make response videos because these are important discussions to have.
Keep your opinions coming girlfriend!! In my opinion (hehe) it sucks when people are wishywashy or timid about their thoughts and viewpoints because of fear of backlash (which I understand is a legitimate fear). I want to hear what people actually think, not a watered down version meant to please everyone. Really great video with lots of really solid points. I also agree with you about the manipulative ways of publishing...just gross :)
Happy Reading!!
I kind of see why some authors would prefer to write a story into multiple books (more time spent on the story while getting paid, knowing you have a following, etc.) but as someone who aspires to publish my own book(s) one day, I would never do that to my projects.
Your discussion made me think of a recent 2-part video from Lindsay Ellis about The Hobbit movies (A Long-Expected Autopsy and Battle of Five Studios). Have you watched it, by any chance? If not, you might enjoy it. There are a lot of parallels, it's almost eerie.
A very thought-provoking video! Not always the easiest to keep in my mind when some form of media ends up close to one's heart but something that needs to be kept in mind. No book or any form of media will every make everyone happy, we're all different and if we weren't the world would be a very boring place. There are people I love watching on booktube and as people I love them, value their opinions and trust that they are genuine but i've realized we are almost always of opposite opinions on books. I still love their videos. At the very least I get to see a different viewpoint, even if I don't agree with it myself, sometimes I even get to see something I didn't before. We can have a different opinion on something and still get along.
Love this video!
I couldn't agree with you more! 👍🏻
When I first got into booktube I mainly watched YA channels and bought a lot of YA books because of the hype around them. I still love to read YA as you do and there are some great ones out there.
I feel like because of the success of series like Twilight, The Hunger Games...etc publishers think everything has to be turned into a duology/trilogy/series to make more money and I'm sick of it! For example I enjoyed the Dorothy Must Die series but it would've been better as a duology than a four book series in my opinion.
As for people taking offence at others for disliking their favourite books I also completely agree with you. People should be able to understand that everyone will have their own opinions and not take it personally. We should all be willing to listen and try to understand why others may dislike books that we love. I find it interesting to see differing opinions on booktube and love more critical videos for their honesty. 🙂
I don't know if I completely agree with your point about an entire trilogy could be written as a stand alone novel. However I have expressed some series where I honestly thought the first book was great but the story didn't need to continue after the first book. I have also experienced where a trilogy or even a four book series could have been done better in just two books. A problem I have been having lately is that a lot of the books I read including standalone needed to be 100 pages shorter because there was simply to much detail or redundant material that didn't enhance the story in a meaningful or logical way.
I read Three Dark Crowns and enjoyed it. I had to look back to see what I rated it.... apparently 4 stars? Considering I don’t remember much about it at this point, I may have to make that a 3 Stars.... I completely get your points though. I agree that it would have made a seriously great stand alone novel. I feel like maybe I’ve have that thought in my head about the YA publishing but never really articulated it out loud or quite as well as you. I’m glad you ended up making this video. I was looking forward to see what you had to say.
I think people have always had strong opinions but currently - openly sharing/yelling into the void - is celebrated by many.
I agree with you 100%. I read Three Dark Crowns last year - the premise and the cover drew me in! I don’t ever DNF books, but nearly did with this book as it was soooooo slow. I was disappointed as, like you said, the storyline had so much potential but could have been condensed significantly.
Unfortunately, the element of online anonymity encourages some people to behave poorly on social media platforms. If you were having a face to face discussion about a book and your opinions differed, there is no way that the interaction would become as personal and nasty as it does online.
you totally articulated something i have been trying to put words to for ages!! people tend to think someone bashing their faves is a bash on them and they take this weirdly moral stance on it, like if you don't like X thing, there's something wrong with you. you must be problematic if you don't feel the same way i feel about a thing!!! which is nonsense!! but it does seem to be a popular notion in all types of internet fan communities. books speak to people differently and it doesn't make someone a bad person if they dragged your favorite book one time lol.
also I FEEL YOU STRONGLY re: YA publishing right now. i think the popularity of a few big series made publishers decide that everything COULD be a series, whether or not it needed to be. and also just like, in general, i think that leaving the book on a big cliffhanger is a shitty move and it almost never makes for actually good writing. but YA authors have sort of embraced this "haha i love to torture my readers with cliffhangers!!! :)" attitude and it's...real annoying. maybe it's cuz i'm OLD now and i don't have the patience for that, lmao.
Yes, agreed about YA publishing, about respecting while disagreeing, and you make a great point about opening yourself up to seeing flaws in something you love!
I adore your videos and i wish small booktubers keep being honest like that in the future.
I’m glad you made this video for the exact reason why you were hesitant to make it. I appreciate your honest opinion, and honest opinion from any other sources.... otherwise why would I bother to read or watch book reviews at all? I’d just close my eyes (physical eyes and the mind’s eye) and fabricate a world that agrees only with my narratives. Don’t let other people’s narrow-mindedness get to you.
I think the important thing to remember when you're putting a "controversial" opinion out there is, you don't owe anyone a debate. You do not have to go to battle with every person who disagrees with you, particularly if they are more interested in telling you why you're wrong rather than having and engaging discussion. This goes for the other side as well--not every review trashing my favorite thing merits a ten thousand words essay on everything that person disliked or "didn't get". I know you're point is that you would like to have engaging, adult conversations with people who have an opposing viewpoints. I wish I saw more of that. Unfortunately people are often too heated and not rational about their favorite things, and when that happens, or when the person goes right for the personal attacks, don't engage. It's a waste of energy.
Amen to every single word you said.
I'm having a bit of a rough time with YA. I've just DNFed Belzhar and I can't seem to find a YA book I enjoy without focusing on all the abundantly overused tropes and clichés nad I just couldn't -.-
But I agree on the series argument. As you said, if a story is told in three books by all means, I'm up for it! But there has to be material for three books or how many they are.
Also, I don't understand why when channels grow people become nastier or meaner. I know it happens, but I don't understand why. Especially from a book community, that should be used to discussions and hearing each other's opinions, I wouldn't expect that kind of behaviour and I'm so sorry whenever it happens :(
Oh, interesting. I actually quite enjoyed Belzhar but I know that twist was...polarizing, to say the least, haha! I don't know if you've ever read The Winner's Trilogy by Marie Rutkoski but I found that to be a really engaging, challenging, not-too-tropey YA series. And unlike some other series where book 2 is only used as a bridge to book 3, the second book was actually the best in the series (in my opinion, anyway).
If I can be completely frank, I think a portion of the nastiness comes from people who don't like to see others be successful in their endeavors because of deeply seeded unhappiness & jealousy. I think those feelings overwhelm every decent impulse these people have and their use the privilege of anonymity to lash out. People also are able to act immediately on impulse & emotion when they hear something they don't like, so you're getting the worst version of their thoughts. I'm fortunate in that most grumps on my channel are cowardly and solely choose to dislike, but my heart breaks for people who are getting consistent hate thrown at them. All I know is if I see a rando jerk doing that to a fellow booktuber, they've lost the privilege to comment on my channel. Boi bye.
Loved this video and yes this is so absolutely true, sad but true
I agree with alot of your points. I genuinely didn't connect with any of the queens so by the end I didn't care what happened to them.