The 3-Cyl 6-Piston Commer TS3 Was Simple, Reliable And Genius
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 31 май 2024
- - Patreon -
/ visioracer
- Timestamps -
00:00 Intro
00:39 Responsible people
01:49 Meticulous development
02:19 Inspired by rivals?
02:48 Engine design
04:19 Production specs
05:02 More power
05:43 Chrysler-scrapped concept
07:21 Final words
07:53 Cheers!
- Disclaimer -
This video is fair use under U.S. copyright law because it is transformative in nature, uses no more of the original than necessary and has no adverse effect on the market for the original work.
- Credits -
“Achates Power Heavy-Duty 10.6L Opposed-Piston Engine” by Achates Power
• Achates Power Heavy-Du...
“Commer Truck TS3 knocker Engine supercharged two stroke.” by phantomrose1999
• Commer Truck TS3 knock...
“The £1.6m Ecurie Ecosse Commer TS3 Transporter - "Farewell old girl"” by Goodwood Road & Racing
• The £1.6m Ecurie Ecoss...
“COMMER TWO STROKE LORRY. 1966 VINTAGE.” by gillian goldup
• COMMER TWO STROKE LORR...
“UK TV Program 1999 History Channel 'Forgotten Marques' Rootes” by yellowdfp
• UK TV Program 1999 His...
“Opposed Piston Engine Design - Commer TS3 - Solidworks” by Muammer tanrıverdi
• Opposed Piston Engine ...
“Commer TS 3” by timsimmk
• Commer TS 3
“Working Of 2 Stroke Opposed Piston Engine” by Syed Abdul Razzak
• Working Of 2 Stroke Op...
“firing up the commer knocker” by Matt_tenere700
• firing up the commer k...
“my first TS3” by ivan sandford
• my first TS3
“Commer TS3 climbing Haldon Hill Devon” by TheScammellexplorer
• Commer TS3 climbing Ha...
“Commer TS3 2 Stroke Taking Off” by ts3cunningstunt
• Commer TS3 2 Stroke Ta...
“Commer TS3 Start up” by Obmit2847
• Commer TS3 Start up
“Commer TS3 "barking"” by mdts3
• Commer TS3 "barking" 
Авто/Мото
![Eminem - Houdini [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/22tVWwmTie8/mqdefault.jpg)
Happy memories of these trucks.Commer was one of five British brands that disappeared thanks to Chrysler. I can’t see the point of buying a company and then destroying it’s brilliant and unique technology because it is often better than what they produce themselves.
That's why they do it.
Competition..now or in the future;
wasn't made here;
complete moronic jealosy;
stupidity....
all factors in "why"...
That's what the giuda do, they buy Cristian companies just to destroy them.
Any time you have to ask why, the answer is ALWAYS, Power, Position, Prestige or Profit.
@@JohnSmith-yv6eq . The take over and delete the better products happens too much. I Think it's extremely stupid to do it. There was so much to like about the opposed piston design. Just imagine if Chysler had continued its development and continued to meet emission regulations. Shame on you Chysler!
yeah , it's called the free market , ha ha it's funny , aye !
The fact they didn't have head gaskets alone, makes them really reliable.
The last thing they want is something that does not fail.
@@UQRXD Sounds like a Detroit
So did an Offy, but you don't see them, either.
Yeah no valves either
Those were some crazy torque numbers in relation to the horsepower and the displacement wasn't that much to begin with. A lot of low end pull. Gotta love diesel.
WELL DONE!!¬ I was an apprentice at Tillings, and spent much of this time on TS3 development including dynamometer engine testing - like 24hrs at full speed of 2400rpm in relatively small test beds - the noise!! You mentioned Bill Seaman - he was my boss at that time, and a very clever man! Road testing in masked vehicles also part of it where chief road tester Frank Puxty became a great friend. I was also on the commissioning team on Jessica, a Southampton pilot boat which had two TS3's, and wow didn't that sing, both on full throttle!! We had just started on prototype TS4 engine when Chrysler put us all out of work , so I finished up in our aero dept. building Comet 3/4 columns and rudder sets, flap gearboxes, Rolls Royce jet engine parts and god knows what else - they also finished all that too - those were the days!! Other apprentices finished up in 'ERS' which was where all the Rootes group exchange reconditioned engines were done - civil and military. Did you know that Tilling Stevens also built petrol electric (hybrid) buses in the very early days of motoring!. So it wasn't invented by Toyota...
Thanks for that, I owned a ford d series 82 model, very fuel efficient, didn't like to pull up with a big load. But it would fit in a car space, great turning circle.
Your contribution is very valuable, it must of been so exciting working on these engines in a team like that. Then the yanks stuffed it. There's seems to be something evil about management. My neighbour served in Darwin WW2, the yanks were not liked, he said they shot all their own aircraft down trying to land when the Japs bombed Darwin at night. Cutting edge night fighters equipped with radar. A few old blokes who served said the same thing about them in new guinea. One bloke was escorted by a Japanese zero , the Australian pilot got shot trying to land by the yanks, so he flew a further 45 min to another airdrome. The zero came in inspected the damage on the cargo plane, saluted him . He thought well this is it, but the zero escorted him. Amazing what you learn when you talk to old blokes who were actually there. I hope you have all your experiences written down, otherwise it will all be re-written. Thanks mate best input on her
Must be nice controlling society by censoring whatever you want to 🙅🏻♂️🤦🏻♀️.
It's nice to hear from someone who actually worked on that engine. Did they ever try to do a turbocharged version?
@@andyharman3022 Hello - and your interest Andy. there was the very large Roots type supercharger on the front of the engine, driven by a drive shaft through the engine from the timing chain at the back, but I don't think turbo charger was envisaged, unless that was cancelled by Chrysler of course!
Toyota didn't invent the hybrid car Ferdinand Porshe built one sometime around 1900
I bought one ts3 in 1968 from a scrapped lorry. Fitted it in a 30foot boat,. Ran like a dream and the exhaused was a trade mark , so smooth and reliable , with 3 injectors it was easy to maintain,. The later models had a beefed up supercharger drive shaft as twisting caused breakage. Ideal for boat use , the one I had was 105 hp at 3000. Very compact too , wonderfull memories,
Still being used in a lot of boats
Makes me wonder how many more engines and their designs were bought up by big competitors and concealed away from society. Keep bringing us these awesome videos, thanks👏
UFO engines also left the chat..
The opposed piston 2-stroke diesel is no big secret! It was extremely common at one time. As noted in the video, Sulzer had a very similar design to Commer with single crankshaft and rockers, while Jumo (and many other manufacturers, notably fairbanks morse) opted for 2 crankshafts, one each end. In order to get more power, Jumo experimented with using four 6-cylinder blocks in a diamond configuration, while Napier found a way to get the timing right with just three 6-cylinder banks, giving the Deltic engine which went into production powering ships and trains. The thing that killed the design was emissions regulations, but Achates Power is trying to bring the concept back.
@@londonalicante cool
Cummins is making a larger version similar to this. It has 2 crankshafts though connected by gears and it’s turbocharged
This happened A LOT for firearms too. Big fish, like Winchester, would swallow up smaller fish to remove competition. It makes some sense to standardize, funnel R&D and manufacturing into the more viable product line. But sometimes we lose innovation.
Quite emotional! My dad and uncle used to run these lorries in the sixties and seventies. Took me back to queueing up at London docklands, dozens of lorries waiting, early evening, to load up with fruit and veg, to deliver over night to markets all over Britain. They loved and rated them. I don't know if anyone has mentioned it here, but the engines would occasionally decoke themselves on the motorway, treating us to a firework display from the exhaust!
Beautiful sounding engine, unique. Our dog rusty could hear dad coming home five minutes before me and mum!
That is an interesting comment, I wonder if the combustion process might possibly have been cleaner than conventional diesels because of the extremely high compression ratio that could be achieved, I wonder if it is possible with modern "scrubbing" technology [i,e, DPF's and Cat converters] to revive them.
I never heard of an engine decoking. The way you describe it seems like it could be a fire hazard especially for for dry grass or forests along side the roadway.
Decoke 😂 *71 series Detroit engines are notorious for doing the same... and, when they do so on a west Texas roadway surrounded by summertime dry grassland, it results in more than just fireworks. I once INCIDENTALLY set multiple wild fires along a ~5 mile stretch of road. Luckily, our notorious West Texas wind was not blowing that day, and I was being followed by my rig crew. The Fire Department was called in. Driving the rig, I reached our next location clueless. No major damage was done, but I think there were 7 separate fires started.😧
The only diesels I ever heard that sounded anywhere near as good as the Commer "knocker" were the 2-stroke Detroits. I hitched a ride in a Commer pantech (owned by a contractor for the overnight freight company IPEC, which used to specify Commers) from Narrandera in southwestern NSW to Sydney when I was about 18. It was a memorable trip. The thing was a rocketship, hauling the light loads of parcels which were IPEC's bread and butter. As the commentator said, not much power, but once it was rolling it would run all day (night in this case) at 65mph, up hill and own dale. And the beautiful howl of the engine at high revs - it sounded like music ...
@@barnardward5293 That 2 stroke sound... In West Texas oil fields and elsewhere, we lovingly refer to 71 series Detroits as "Screamin' Demons" I liked them very much.
I worked on these engines as an apprentice and always loved them for their innovation and simplicity. The exhaust note is one you never forget....two stroke diesels have a howl you just can't get over. Thanks for this vid
Opposed two stroke diesels was why Deltic rail locos are absolutely revered for power and sound.
I also worked on these as a sprog!
Hey Helmut. These engines....Noisy or what?? :0)
Of the 2 makes, the Rootes engine had a higher pitch engine note while the detroit had a lower pitched growl. Once you had heard the two ,you always knew which was which.
Plenty of Commer “Knockers” were sold and used here in Australia, many also were used on the interstate routes to deliver freight between capital cities like Adelaide, Melbourne, Sydney, Perth, Brisbane and Darwin etc. They were durable and economical, as a young bloke I heard that a TS4 was on the drawing board , but the acquisition of the Rootes Group meant it was killed off.
A lot in NZ as well. Generally hauling livestock, truck and trailer over some of the rugged back country roads. Really hard worked machines. Shame that engine disappeared for Americanism.
A sound from my childhood, once heard never forgotten !
Me too, my father worked on fleets of them, and an uncle had one. Disappearing by the time I was a mechanic, but did get to work on and drive some. Best sound ever...apart from a Trident.
And My childhood too . A remarkable and CLEVER AF engine design , with a unique soundtrack .
Same here, sat atop one of these for years as a child. You could hear it coming and see where it had been for miles. Great sound.
How true. How true!
Me too, you could hear them coming for miles, and smell them after they had passed by.
Amazing that such a unique design worked so well, from such a small design team.
Thats an absolutly beautifull design, i love the opposing cylinders with hemispherical chambers, also super clever to have the intake and exhaust sides seperated so you can time intake and exhaust timing seperatly and have great chamber flushing, also that it only needs one crankshaft. What a cool engine!
Interesting fact opposed piston engines highly knock resistant because camber is expanding in two directions , ironic this engine known for knocking
@@garypeatling7927 That with very low compression.
I agree but why did they make them so small only 3.5 litres
@@garypeatling7927 The nick name of the engine comes from the noise the blower drivetrain made on units with no harmonic dampers fitted, nothing to do with either diesel knock or detonation.
@@andrewking4885 \
An anecdote: Going back 50 years, we had a flat bed Commer lorry on the farm as a bale transporter, because tractors and trailers in the day were pitifully small. This thing was awesome. As young kids we all drove it on a tractor/car licence down the village road from one end of the farm to the other. It always had a flat battery, but bump started exceedingly easy. What a sound...and what a lot of smoke. One day, Dad had an offer he couldn't refuse from an engine collector!
Where were you living in those days? I envy you having actually been there with a running version
Congratulations on a superbly researched production on the Rootes TS3 diesel. I have been a huge fan of these engines since riding in the cab of a very early TS3 powered Commer 7 tonner in New Zealand, driven by my father on stock cartage over some very hilly and sometimes rough territory. The sound of that motor can never been forgotten. I was very fortunate to make contact with Don Kitchen in later life and would always ring him on his birthday - 10th July from memory. He was an amazing man, still living in his own house and driving himself around in his mid 90s with an amazing range of interests. Sadly he died of COVID when he had to go into hospital due to another medical issue. A very sad loss to an amazing man. I enjoyed the phone calls talking about Commer stuff and letters he wrote to me about his life and his time developing the TS3 / TS4. I was also fortunate to get copies of other letters he sent to another Commer enthusiast in NZ as well as receiving interesting plans, reports and photos from Don. I am very pleased you have mentioned that TS3 stands for Two Stroke 3 Cylinder and are not repeating the myth that this stands for Tilling Stevens which is sadly often incorrectly reported by authors in Classic Truck Magazine articles on TS3 powered Commers, or mentioned on the WWW. If people only did a little research, they would work out it couldnʻt possibly stand for Tilling Stevens. As you quite rightly state, development started on this engine in 1946. Rootes Group didnʻt purchase Tilling Stevens until 1950! And they purchased it for manufacturing space, not for any technical developments being undertaken by Tilling Stevens. As Don said in a letter, the fact that the TS3 was MANUFACTURED at Maidstone was entirely coincidental. It could have been manufactured at another of the Rootes plants... Just to add further to its development, the TS3 design team were housed on the third floor of the Admin block at the Humber-Hillman Stoke Aldermoor Rootes plant in Coventry between the military vehicles design office and the Hillman Minx ohv 4 cylinder design team which was developed from 1390cc its final incarnation in the Hillman Hunter. It was a few years later that the Rootes Diesel engine division moved to Maidstone to be nearer production and any issues that arose. Just to make a little correction on your commentary, Don wrote in a letter that when he arrived to work at the Humber plant as a design engineer apprentice, there was the single cylinder version which they used to work on liner / cylinder design, and two TS3 prototypes, one in a truck and one on the test bed. The two cylinder version came a few years later after the TS3 had been in production and the design request from Commer trucks for the two cylinder version was as a possible diesel engine option for the bonneted 6 cylinder Superpoise petrol or an industrial motor. Don thought it was proceeded with because of vibration issues. As far as he knew, it ended up in the scrap bin. I wish I could post photos as I have a copy of the only known photo of the 2 cylinder engine... The mention of Commer Trucks requesting a two cylinder version brings up a point not often understood. Rootes Diesel Engine Division was responsible to Commer Trucks Luton who would forward request for engine development. It is not widely known but Rootes Diesel Engine Division, at the request of Commer Trucks, tried to develop diesel versions of the 4 and 6 cylinder petrol motors used in Commer trucks. This wasnʻt successful. Don stressed that there was always a little tension between the Rootes Diesel Engine Division and the Maidstone engineers as they were only responsible for the manufacturing of the TS3, not its development and they often thought they knew what should be done, in their opinion, to improve the TS3. I am amazed that you have featured a page of the design calculations for the TS3. I have seen these ʻin the fleshʻ as Don sent them to the other Commer enthusiast in NZ. They make a mockery of the idea that the TS3 was a copy of one of the other opposed piston two stroke diesels. Why would you need to go to the trouble of calculating all those stress calculations - and there are pages of them, and if the TS3 was a copy, surely they would have had at least one of those engines lying around in the design centre workshop to consult. It is very clear from papers he presented to the likes of the Royal Society of Engineers, that Eric Coy knew a great deal about all the opposed piston engines, but just because he developed an engine using similar ideas - as you state from a clean slate, doesnʻt mean it was a ʻcopyʻ of another engine. You mentioned that the TS3 was developed for Industrial purposes. This was just one branch of the development of the TS3 - never an initial goal. Rootes Diesel engine division came to an arrangement for Listers for an industrial version of the TS3 to power stationary pumps and gen sets, late in the 1950s, but this only lasted 18 months or so. Despite this, the TS3 was used and developed for an incredible range of uses where its low running costs and reliability was a real assets. Sorry if I have gone on a bit but I didnʻt have any other way of contacting you but I hope this adds to the story of remarkable engine. Again, well done on a tremendous history of this remarkable engine and the incredibly small and dedicated team that bought this engine to life. Cheers from New Zealand
That last clip with crowds lining the roads around a tight hairpin bend was filmed in Brixham Torbay, South Devon in the UK. It's on Overgang road and the lorry has just driven up from the harbour.
I live near here, and it is instantly recognizable and have driven around that bend many, many times.
My father would take me to his optician's practice when I was a kid, which was next to a steep hill. I would love to run outside and listen to the Commer lorries battling up that hill with that (even to me as a 7-year old) very distinctive sound.
fond memories indeed🐱👍🏿
Yep, under load, they screamed like no other diesel.
well I can confidently say that Chrysler deserved all the hardships it would face in the future for canceling and trying to destroy this engine
Karma is a bitch...🤣🤣🤣
Napier deltic is the same engine except it used 3 crankshafts instead of 2. Britain used it in trains since the 1940's.
ruclips.net/video/-vV-YaKsIGk/видео.html
@@wishicouldsing129 Developed for fast attack/torpedo launches for the U.S. Navy I believe, but that might have been the shortened 9-cyl version.
2 cycle diesels can't pass any future emissions standards. Same thing happened to Detroit Diesels. Blame the environmental Green Agenda.
I wish I had coffee table book featuring all these obscure engines.
Great video. Thanks for sharing
Once borrowed a book from our local library titled 'Some Unusual Engines' by L.J.K Setright.
coffee talk then becomes a coffee conference🐱👍🏿
@@cwt5654 Thanks for the tip. I found one available on Amazon and bought it.
There is also Opposed Piston Engines: Evolution, Use, and Future Applications by Martin Flint and Jean Pierre Pirault who I helped out with contact details for Don Kitchen and others. These guys have amazing CVs - working for Ford / Aston Martin, etc. Incredibly well researched. Unfortunately I didnʻt buy a copy when it first came out as I thought it was a little expensive... Now I need to pay about 3 or 4 times the price for the few available 2nd hand copies...
My late father was a partner in a touring venture, taking tourists from Johannesburg to London overland in 2 Commer buses fitted with this engine in 1956. Remarkable, up Africa, through the Sahara desert, into Europe and Britain, ferrying across the Mediterranean and English Channel respectively. Incredible adventure, considering the challenges, this new, untried engine with novel, unique concept and design being but one consideration!
That rocker arm type connecting rod is fascinating to watch. It's a cool design. Has some advantages, some disadvantages. It's just part of what makes engineering so fascinating.
I love this channel BTW.
Thank you!
Chrysler made a mistake...a destructive one. So sad. An interesting design. I hope this video inspires designers.
An old fitter described them as having conrods shaped like jug handles.😊
the art of compromise
yes, those rockers took so much power and torque, our early ones failed, but development cured it with immensely strong through bolts holding it all together...
So damn interesting, what a brilliant design. Thanks VR for bringing such a outstanding engine into the light that I never know existed.
That is nothing. You wanna see this real engine in operation since 1940? Napier deltic was a British train engine and it used 3 crankshaft. Talk about a work of art. ruclips.net/video/-vV-YaKsIGk/видео.html
Should check out the Achates 2 stroke diesels - they are 3 cylinder opposed.
i have expected two crankshafts,
but this is simpler whilst being more compact at the same time.
There are opposed engines with double cranks but yeah this is a far smarter way to do it
And then there’s the Deltic with THREE cranks, and three banks of (effectively) V-Twins. Used initially in WW2 high speed rescue boats, for rescuing aircrews downed in the English Channel, and after the war in trains.
Intelligently designed
I would think the mass of those rockers reciprocating would somewhat limit rpm, but the engine is intended for low rpm torque and the plus of compactness is significant. Less metal surface area exposed to combustion per displacement I’d think has potential for better thermal efficiency.
@@JeffinTD Strangely, the rpm of this engine was quite high for the time. Very nearly double of some of the established engines of the period. The worst thing of this engine were those rockers as they sapped quite a bit of the usable power. They were pretty gutless at low rpm but good when 'singing' though the exhaust always smelt like rotting fish. If only they had produced the TS4 as the extra cylinder and two pistons made a colossal difference to the behaviour of the engine.
Thank you VisoRacer for this great video!
As with elsewhere, the Commer Knocker also enjoyed a great reputation in Australia. Such a fantastic little Diesel which produced sufficient power to ‘keep the big boys honest’ while delivering that charismatically angry and unique high-revving snarl all it’s own.
During those long, hard, night time Interstate runs there was many a tale related of Knockers equipped with vertical exhaust stacks behind the cab that would throw 4 feet of flame upwards out of the pipe when maxxed out and really ‘on compression’.
Other truck drivers approaching from the opposite direction often described (including to me) of how they could easily recognise a Knocker in the pitch black of night by this jet of flame seemingly floating in the darkness high above the headlights of an oncoming Commer..
Thanks for the memories ! Lads. Shakespeare country uk
This channel deserves so much more recognition than it gets. This is my go-to RUclips channel for learning about various different engine technology from the past and now that I never knew actually existed or how they worked compared to others.
Thank you very much!
His accent is too rough for most people. Not easy to understand
I honestly don't mind it. But I would have to say his English has greatly improved over the lifespan of his channel, all I have to say is to just stick with him because he has a lot of interesting things to talk about.
The sound they make, reminds me of the old Detroit's. Love those 2 stroke diesels! Except no idle surge when cold. Lol thanks Visio for another great and well produced video! Cheers my friend!
Thank you!
I agree, sounds very similar to the Detroit diesel. Always sounds like they are revving far higher than any diesel engine should.
The "big knocker".
@@ferrumignis yes they do, but that's the beauty of them. If you ever heard a 12v71 or any variant of a older Detroit Diesel that was straight piped it's quite an experience, almost sounds like there going to explode at any moment. Lol. All i can say is that they stand out all by themselves.
Congratulations from Australia, you always produce a nice little walk down memory lane. Please keep up the episodes.
It's such a shame these corporations lack any foresight and just push their own dated designs.
Thank you!
Hi, when I was a young boy in the 50's you knew in advance what make of truck was coming before you saw it. Many thanks.
When I was a teenager in the 1960s a local home removal company had a fleet of these Commer 2 stroke engined trucks, the sound was amazing. I also saw one attached to a large generator.
I absolutely love these videos, VR! Never stop making them 😄
It is my pleasure, thanks!
Thank you. I knew about these engines, yet did not know how they were designed. Now I do! It happens often, I do not understand it: you purchase a company and then you start throwing away worthwhile stuff. No wonder Chrysler went down in the end...
hi i love yer chanel i remember the commer dustbin wagon screaming up grange over sands fell road to pick dustbins up
in the 60s im old ass lol
Incredible engineering Commer were everywhere when I was a kid 👊
Build that engine with today's tech, would be a reliable engine and a nice orchestral tone from under the hood.💪👍
It'd still be a two stroke, so no. It wouldn't be under any modern hoods. Because it maked the weather bader.
@@camojoe83 EXOTIC MATERIALS and some cleaner fuels as hydrogen or gas could do the job
@@panospapadimitriou3498 they smoke, no matter what kind of fuel they burn
It would probably still be tough to meet emissions standards, even with modern technology.
@@camojoe83
Douglas Bader?
He was badder......
Basically you needed a 6 to 7 liters of displacement to get north of 300 foot pounds of torque back then. 100 foot pounds of torque per liter is really good numbers for 1950s industrial applications.
Finally someone who gets it. These oldschool diesels don't have top-end HP, it's all about the high torque from tickover. As you say, these numbers are revolutionary for the time.
🐱👍🏿
Yes, TS3 was 270, and with that amount of torque, gearboxes to take it were hard to find, for test purposes we had AEC 's from their very much larger engines.
@@theoriginaldylangreenein Australia they were called commer knocker they can pull all day using a small amount of fuel they are like a train whistle they can be heard comming far away and a nice sound just like the screaming gm America and Japan were researching the knocker with new technology larger engine that put out staggering performance and extremely low fuel usage the was about ten years ago I would think it was a threat and bought out you can't have a threat if it's too!!! Good it must be shelved😢😢
It seems that every thing we think is new was already made a 100 years ago. Great video thank-you
bought and shelved technology
Back in the 60s, my Dad put a tank on the roof, painted it black, attached black painted iron pipes to it, and used solar to heat water for the kitchen.
(We didn't have an indoor toilet because my folks thought it a nasty idea to $hit in the same building you cooked and ate in.)
That was a while before most people had even heard of photovoltaic heating. But he knew the sun was warm, and black objects heated faster than white ones. And that Mama might stop bugging him to get electricity hooked up.
("Foofaraw and foolishness to buy stuff just because everybody else does it.")
You might think I would look back on that life as hard, maybe even outlandish, but I don't. I didn't miss the things I didn't have because I didn't know others had any "better" than The Folk in our own remote community.
I had a ts3 commer in 71 worked it hard a Great truck loved it,
I love how the automatically generated captions just say "[Music]" at 4:56
Never saw any commer engines in Canada but a similar sound was common from the many Detroit 2 strokes on the road back then.
A well researched and compiled video.
As an apprentice HGV technician in the mid 1970's, I remember the technical College I attended in Birmingham UK (Hall Green) having one of these engines removed from a truck, and put on display there, and although it never run, I was fascinated with its design.
I have never seen or heard a TS3 engine running in a Commer HGV, but I believe these vehicles were featured in the 1972 Hitchcock film 'Frenzy' where London Dockers use them as their main transport .
What became of Chrysler in the UK.....an unmitigated and complete disaster, with the appalling cars they produced in Coventry, e.g. the Alpine and Horizon.
As an 18 year old I got my semi truck license in NZ and drove an Artic and Trailer from the local freezing works to the dock at Bluff to make extra money on my days off. For the day the working rev range was very small. I never did know that the actual engine capacities were so small. Great video.
Did it blow up 🤣
@@brianlowe3529 Not while I was driving it.
@@nevillemcnaughton6306 👍
The rpm range required 5 speed plus Eaton diff for heavier (artic) trucks but were great for town delivery trucks. Perkins V8 diesels were often retrofitted where they could be shoe horned in. They required a wider chassis spacing.
@@howardsimpson489 The Perkins 510 / 580 V8s fitted in easily to the larger later Commers as they had a ʻspadeʻ chassis that made it easy for this - Page Vivian fitted them to new Commers in the North Island of New Zealand. Lots of Commers in OZ and NZ had GM / Detroit V6s and even V8s fitted as well as the Cat 1150/3208 series. Various firms in NZ fitted these engines from new in NZ, like Gills of Huntly who developed ʻfitment kitsʻ so trucking firm mechanics could fit their own.
*Great* video. I really thing Chrysler was shortsighted for both abandoning and attempting to bury these.
And Chrysler ends up getting bought out themselves
chrysler =...💩
It can't meet the requirements of the strict rules of EPA.
Cost too much investment and investment to try to get it certified.
@@jks3849 *Twice*
@@loktom4068 pull a VW
6:31 - Why did Chrysler want to make sure that everything to do with the concept TS4 engine was binned and destroyed after plans to put the engine into production were cancelled after they acquired the Rootes Group?
Basic big corp evilness
because it lasted to long, and didn't require enough maintenance
@@alexanderdeburdegala4609 And that meant Chrysler wouldn’t have made as much money if it had been put into production, hence why they ordered plans to put it into production to be cancelled.
There’s planned obsolescence for you - it simply means more profit for the company at the expense of the consumer…
I would suggest that Chrysler management decided that a high reliability engine didn't fit within their corporate identity
It must have been expensive to build. And/or they simply wanted out of the medium diesel business. Seems like a bad idea, but then again look who we are talking about~
I thought I knew a few things about basic engine designs, but this one is brand new to me - THANKS!
Family sold their commer float/horse box just several years ago..It hauled the Heavy Horses and a caravan all over Ireland and over to England and Scotland even long ago to France..
They bought it used in the mid-late 60s...
I loved Commer trucks and vans when I was a kid. They were beautiful to look at! Thanks for posting this very interesting piece! 👍
I was in Whakatane a few weeks ago and literally saw that Commer TS3 drive past! The sound def caught my attention! Such a strong, clever, and efficient design!
wheres that uk or nz?
@@fidelcatsro6948 NZ. Down the coast aboutx an hour from Tauranga
@@timothyjamieson1282 wow buy and keep it
That must have been the same one I saw on Friday on SH30.
I saw it todsy going to Rotorua. Well presented truck and an awesome exhaust noise...
I knew this type of truck but wasn’t aware of the engine design. Amazing thinking outside the box, makes you wonder if there is a budding genus out there that can take it to the next level.
Great video, I drove a Commer 10ton tipper fitted with this engine, great sound, a little light on horse's enjoyed driving it.
you should have bought the truck!
I've read about these, but never seen one before. Beautiful sound.
Great video Visio. I've heard of the opposed piston design, but never heard of this company & their masterpiece.
My father’s small business had two TS3 engined Commer tipper lorries, and a few Ford tippers of similar size. The Commer lorries matched the Fords’ performance, despite the Fords being 6 litre straight 6 engines - the advantage of the TS3’s two power strokes per 2 revolutions.
The TS3s were beautifully built engines, and each came with its blueprints, showing the balanced weights of each rocker and other components - I think the components were marked with IDs that matched those shown in the blueprints. The downside of the design was the need for extra bearings - one in the centre of each rocker, one at each end of the two connecting rods for each rocker, plus the usual crank shaft main bearings. All these were white metal bearings. This made keeping up with oil changes a critical service need.
The timing gears were complex, needing something like 30 revolutions before all the timing punch marks lined up again - often causing a bit of head-scratching when checking the timing after a re-build.
The Commers also had twin speed back axles with an electrically operated gear select in the differential.
The 2 stroke Commers sound amazing. I have been lucky enough to see/hear one in person.
I remember the Commer truck when I was boy. A haulage company near my old school in the village had a fleet of Commer trucks. The 2 stroke engine note was very distinctive. I was fascinated how it worked when I was a kid, I still am. I read that a U.S. company is planning to launch their own version. They have very low emissions apparently.
Seems someone somewhere has often been working for decades on opposed piston designs, but they never make it to market. I suppose the Achilles heel commercially is the cost and complexity of having 2 cranks on opposite sides of the engine. Or the inability to modulate valve timing with a cylinder port design. Maybe, just guessing.
A recent interesting concept is a generator for ev vehicles. No need to have a crank at all, as it is projected to use linear electrical generation.
Most informative,well do I remember the distinctive sound of Commer lorries from my childhood. Well done!
I worked in the Bapco Bahrain Refinery in 1979. A Comer van took us back to Awali after work. It was a neat little vehicle with an unusual sound.
Wow, I'd never heard of an engine of this layout! Another cool video from Visio!
Fantastic video. Thanks for the information about something I had not known. It's amazing what others have done, and then gets wiped to prevent competition.
Our local council in New Zealand had several of the Commer TS3 trucks, a very distinctive sound
get one and preserve it while its still around 🐱👍🏿
I spent my childhood in my dads commer TS3 4 wheeler asphalt truck ,great to hear the old engine again
We used to call them Commer Knockers in NZ because of there distinctive noise under power. A great engine.
I remember these Commer trucks when I was a kid because they were exceptionally noisy with a deep, aggressive exhaust note. I had no idea about the dual piston per cylinder like the Jumo 205 diesel aircraft engine though.
Interesting video, thanks!
exceptionally noisy with a deep, aggressive exhaust note - understatement of the day! You could hear these things for miles! Awful contraptions
I have been thinking about Jumo 205 as well watching this video.
Quite impressed how you were able to obtain all that historic material. Most historic videos consist of few historic footage and 80% interviews in the present with people recalling history. This what you do is SO much better.
Thanks!
As a kid I was always fascinated by how different these Comma trucks sounded. A local haulage firm had 3 Comma flatbeds to pick up the milk churns from the farms.
Deetroit Diesel's 2-stroke brother from across the pond.
Love opposed piston design.
No head gasket issues.
No valvetrain.
That’s super cool!!! I’ve never heard of this engine before.
It sounds fantastic! The HP / TQ are incredibly impressive for the size of that engine.
It sounds fantastic!
A both sad and happy story! - thanks for this interesting video! greetings, Levi in Sweden
Thank you!
I especially enjoy your videos reference diesel engines from the past. Thank you for the information!
I DROVE ONE OF THOSE FOR 38 YEARS. YOU'LL HAVE TO SPEAK UP!
Drove one of these Commers in a dump truck in the late 1960's. Went like hell.
I always liked doing drafting in school, they don't offer it anymore. I will also thank you and your patronage for helping you with the channel and and informative information on these videos, I always forget to tell you that I have heard and seen some goofy designs. You bring back a lot of things that I have completely have forgotten about and for that I humbly thank you again. 🙂
It's all done on computers these days. No need for paper and pencil.
It's still taught, it's called CAD, now. Computer Aided Design
What an amazing engine, and what a travesty it was cancelled. Thank you for the video..
I remember Commercial 2 stroke diesels very well when I was a kid. Loved them.
I've been waiting for you to do a video on this engine!
Love your channel content, about strange engines. Great presentation and video. THANKS
love the sound of a two stroke diesel love your vids too.
I have a classroom training model of a single cylinder of this engine made by my father Ken pritchard who worked for Roots. It has sliding intake and exhaust ports to change port timing, and also a height adjustable crankshaft to change compression ratio. It still works by hand turning the crankshaft by a tap handle behind the plywood panel ! It always interested me as a small child and it now hangs in my garage and is shown to the younger generations. It was great to see the working ones on this channel. Thanks.
The Timoney Brothers in Ireland, who did a lot of work on the TS3/4 in the later 70s/ 80s after Chrysler stopped any further development developed at least one with eccentric rocker shafts that rotated slightly to alter the timing of the pistons to increase torque at different speeds - sort of variable valve timing if you will. AFAIK, they never got it working successfully but if they did??? They had the reputation of blowing up a lot of TS3s...
Loved this! I've been tuning in to your videos for years and they're always So Good! Informative and entertaining 👌
Thank you!
What a beautiful design. It reminds me of the old Detroit diesel engines in some of the old GMC PD series buses which a my dad owned in a few variations. Figures Chrysler f**ks up and destroys a great concept that’s even being re-explored today. Perhaps it was a good thing. They can’t even make their best engine (5.7 Hemi) right without reports of them blowing up after nearly 60+ years of making them.
I digress this channel is amazing and the level of historical detail on these recent episodes has been incredible. Keep up the great work!
Thank you, James!
Chrysler used to be known for their advanced engineering & design, but no more. The purchase & merger w/Fiat & Renault was a disaster waiting to happen & of course it did. Stelantis is a mongrel of a company & their demise was predictable & happening before yr. eyes. Likely their days are numbered, bc. what happens when you put three losers together? An even bigger loser. I can't believe ppl. bought stock in this sinking ship. I would be rich if I had shorted them from the start.
The Rams are especially the only ones I’d recommend. Especially the ones with the Cummins (older pre 2010 ones). I own an 2014 Dodge Ram 1500 5.7 Hemi ironically. It’s been pretty good. The lifter issues are what worry me and what I had implied on referring to.
But Chrysler has had so many chances to bring up quality control and their innovation level but cheap out. I wouldn’t touch anything 06+ GM with a ten foot pole either. The older the better in that case.
Would love to see more on this engineering marvel,thanks.
Thanks for posting my video of my TS3 on the trailer.
Hi I drove a Commer TS3 lorry in 1967 for W L Vallance of Heathfield Devon England it was considered a Maxi loader 16 tons gross weight, The lorry was fast comfortable to drive i was 26 years old at the time and drove the lorry about 2 years then moved on to 12 speed Foden artic but i still remember The Commer TS3 great engine for its time thanks for the memories Ed 40 S of Las Vegas Nevada USA
A very interesting video. Over the years there have been many revolutionary engine designs, but you have to wonder why they never get taken up in mass production. Ok, so the Mazda rotary engine made a brief appearance but was killed off due to not meeting emission standards, but when all is said and done, the normal four or six cylinder inline engine powers most cars today.
Amazing. That such a small team engineered such a revolutionary design is remarkable!
My granddad had a ‘Knocker’ in the 32’ boat he made himself back in the 60’s.
Quite compact, it fitted below the cabin sole, but also powerful.
Very distinct exhaust note.
Sometime in the late 70’s he changed it out for a Perkins 6354 which was much larger and ‘upright’ a therefor needed an engine cover etc. etc!
Probably changed out because spares would have been too difficult by then.
This engine design continues to surface from time to time, with great interest !
It would seem to be ri0e for a talented and hungry engineer, or engineering team to continue to develop further !
To take the concept and reverse engineer it to it's ultimate end product, and take it from there !
Light pickup trucks maybe come to my mind !
Current emissions scrubbing devices may take these engines to their next level !
Excellent job on this video Sir !
More of them please !
That Diesel engine sounds amazing.
What an engine note!
Did any of these make it across the pond?
Yes, I too remember that sound on the street. I had no idea it was in anyway a special piece of engineering that was going past me!
I remember these from my childhood in the '70's - a most fearful racket and my mum saying 'oh, it's just a Commer Knocker'. Of course now I'd love the sound!
Fascinating!
wonderful content!
As a teen I was often woken by fully laden trucks passing our house from a company close by. They had a fleet of Commer 2-strokes that made a noise like no other, a noise with a definite tingle factor as they accelerated away from their base. It could have in part been the Rootes blower sucking in huge amounts of air making that delightful racket...
Great vid viSo. - all designed with pencils! I will never forget a day long journey in a "Commer Knocker" as a kid with my Dad from South East England to North west Wales carrying over 10t of Potatoes, ~it would reach 70 Mph/110 plus kmh regularly-but died uphill, But the sound was so memorable as if yesterday. made my ears ring.
-
To hear one in a film clip loud - Alfred Hitchcocks "Frenzy" film had a scene where the Bad guy was in the back of one carrying out an evil deed- amongst the cargo-which happened to be Potatoes-my Dad wasnt the bad guy by the way, he just carried spuds with a TS3.
Wow ! Again I am astonished about your qualification and research. What a pity they cancelled the engine.
We need to arrange mass protest outside Chrysler and demand reforms
Keep the great videos coming!
Yes sir!
There's a TS3 sitting in my mother-in-law's shed. It hasn't run in a long time.
A good description and commentary on a legendary engine. Thanks. Keep up the good work.
Thank you very much!
Chrysler had some notion to make their slant 6 engines into diesels/make a diesel variant of them..... that was going on about the same time as these Commer Knockers were being developed/made. Might have had something to do with why Chrysler scuttled this engine
Another great vid thanks for the effort putting them together
They were called "knockers" for a reason!
Never heard of that and the Slopey with only 4 mains was hardly a cantidate for high compression.
They wanted their American counterpart Cummins to supply their yale v6 and v8 engines which I believe were a failure.
@@edwardkennedy9919 Yes - someone has it right! Although the engines were to come from the new Scottish Cummins factory! And they were disasters. Why did we get the D series Fords with these engines in New Zealand (2418 model) rather than the Perkins V8 option (2417 model) they had in England? Someone made a bad mistake!
This design is clever and sophisticated mechanically. The use of the connecting rod rocker arms to use a single crankshaft is brilliant. This keeps the cost and complexity down and also eliminates the need to come up with a way to connect two crankshafts. It also keeps the engine slim enough to fit between the frame rails. Or at least it looks like it can fit between the frame rails. I don't think that could have been done with two crankshafts. The use of two pistons per bore I didn't think was new territory, but it looks like it worked out to be a good design decision for the engine overall. The fact that there is no cylinder head is helpful for a diesel engine as long as there is a place for the fuel injector. Commer placed it in the center of the cylinder.
It would have been good if Chrysler would have kept this in production. Chrysler had some good 2 stoke gasoline engines. As far as I remember, they didn't have a really good diesel engine. Cross-town at GM they were making plenty of those 2 stroke diesels and putting them into everything heavy from buses to trucks to locomotives. It is a shame that this was not continued. I'm also a bit surprised that a Company like Curtis-Wright or Fairbanks-Morse wasn't interested in this engine. Maybe they were. Who knows.
I'm glad you brought back this important history in this video. Good job.
During the time the Commer was in production, Curtiss-Wright was interested in the Wankel. They had the best-developed Wankel of the time, and that includes NSU and Mazda. Mazda basically copied the Curtiss-Wright engine.
The "way to connect two crankshafts" is a simple set of spur gears - it wasn't a problem for any of the companies which make two-crankshaft opposed-piston engines.
You mention that you didnʻt think the use of two pistons per bore was new territory - it wasnʻt. Doxford began development of an opposed piston diesel marine engine in 1913 which they continued to built until 1980 (and they were huge!) and from a paper on multi fuel two stroke diesels Eric Coy (the main brains behind the TS3) presented to the Royal Society of Engineers in the late 50s, he knew all about the Doxford, Junkers, MAP and all other two stroke opposed piston diesels - probably into his research before designing the TS3 - remembering that a low height diesel engine was a design request from Commer Trucks Luton - another Rootes division, to fit under the seat of their 1948 QX cab design - which was reasonably revolutionary as it allowed three men to sit side by side across the cab - something seen as a strong selling point for its development as an urban delivery lorry! As Chief Power Unit Engineer, probably Eric Coy saw this design of motor as being the easiest to meet this request.
It was a nice surprise to see my Grandpa on this video, I didn’t realise it was on here!
I remember hauling rock out of an open cut mine in a 6 wheel
Knocker. It had 2 speed diffs where the other trucks had an
auxillary box.
I romped out in 3rd gear when other trucks were struggling in
bog gear.
The noise was incredible but they got the job done.
I saw where this design was going to be used as a variable displacement engine for new trucks as they were able to get amazing MPG from it.
I had this idea years ago, you'd control the movement of the pistons like a VVT so that you vary the displacement and compression. When you have low demand, you simply reduce the size of the engine.
Well it was very economical as it was - if you talk to anyone that operated them, they gave fantastic fuel economy, even when overloaded. And maybe you were hearing about the Timoney Brothers in Ireland that developed eccentric rocker shafts that allowed variable piston timing, hence alteration of the torque of the motor. Never succeeded unfortunately!