S1 - 27 - Tips & Techniques: Bullet Seating
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- Опубликовано: 17 окт 2024
- In this episode, the 6.5 Guys are back at the reloading bench to discuss bullet seating for compressed loads and how it can present challenges for maintaining consistent concentricity and cartridge overall all length (OAL). Steve and Ed review some of the current techniques they are using to help address these challenges.
website: www.65guys.com
Facebook: / sixfiveguys
Twitter: / sixfiveguys
Hosts: Steve Lawrence, Ed Mobley
Edited by: Steve Lawrence
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on the hornady anvil you can take the brass screw and insert it on the other side and that should correct the problem of alignment
Thanks guys, I'm a newer reloader and love the 6.5 Grendel, would love to see more reloading videos on it. Thanks guys absolutely love your videos, keep up the great work
Excellent video guys... one more thing I found to minimize runout was to use a rubber O-ring on the sizing and seating dies (on the die threads between the lock rings and press)... With OUT the O-ring my average runout was 2.5 thou, with the O-ring it's now 1-1.5 thou, with it rarely going over 1.5 thou.
I use the Hornady concentricity gauge, Rcbs green box dies, and as a reference for load data, 49.2gr H-4350, 308 winchester brass, 190smk.
RCBS chargemaster kicks ass !!! especially after the straw modification in the spout and the re-programming... after thousands of rounds dispensed not one was overthrown and random checks on a 505 beam the charges are 100% dead on. I use anti-static spray every time and a ferrite choke on the chord to halt any zero drift.
ZeroBoostBuick Yes - I use the O-rings on my Dillon setup.
Always like revisiting 6.5 Guys videos...I've found that pouring the powder into the case in "stages" and tapping the case between partial pours settles the powder quite nicely.
Appreciate all of the tips and everything you guys do for your viewers! I had to come back to this video after a bit to see if there was anything I could do better. Totally forgot about the powder settling trick. Don't measure concentricity yet as I'm still stuck on 6.5 cm and feel there are other variables that will be effecting my reloads much more. Thanks again!
I'm a little late viewing your video on bullet seating, but found it informative. Well done guys. I am currently using a Redding S type FL bushing die for resizing, and Sinclair mandrel for neck tension. The combination seems to work well. I just viewed a video extolling the virtues of using a K&M arbor press with spring pack for bullet seating. The claim was that maintaining consistent pressure during seating will result in smaller ES. Of course I thought that was the purpose of the Sinclair mandrel. The only difference I see is that you would have a pressure in pounds to use to determine consistency. Have you guys had any experience with an arbor press?
Nice info guys.
Theoretically, settling your Powder would be a great reason to buy an ultrasonic cleaner. Set a tray of 50 cases filled with Powder and set the tray of 50 into the ultrasonic (dry of course) and let the 40khz settle the Powder in all 50 cases at once.
Just a thought.
Keep up the good work and innovations.
Ultrasonic cleaners should never be run without liquid in the tank. Maybe if you had an old one that you didn't care about...
Awesome idea. Would really want to know what the difference in accuracy is.
Very useful video, very well done. Using the vibrators to settle the powder was interesting, and gave me a thought to try. 50 charged cases in a loading block, identical loading block on top to put a cover on all the cases, rubber band around the two loading blocks, place on vibrating tumbler for a few minutes . . . 50 cases done at a clip.
Great video. Thank you gentlemen.
Where can I get one of those micrometer seat stops. The black thing on top. I want one. Please reply thanks. I like the patience and precision you guys do. Thanks.
Use the grub screw one the other side of the base to center the base to the comparator
High guys do or did you get any velocity change between settled and non settled.....?
thats a good question.
On bullet concentricity/runout.. I started measuring right after I started seating the bullet. It's real easy to nudge it into place at this point and then finish seating. Sometimes I'll check on initial seating, nudge.. check at midpoint.. nudge.. check after seating..
Great opening demo using grapenuts! I've noticed in my reloading manuals that compressed loads are never listed as the most accurate load in the calibers I hunt with (Nozler, Speer, Hornady, Lee manuals). So why use a compressed load? THANKS.
Try putting your comparator body on the traveling arm of the caliper. It is much easier to get a good reading and try to roll the Case toward you. By using a continuous rolling, it will square up the cartridge when using the anvil. If you have a case with a high primer the anvil will tell you.
We've tried every conceivable way of mounting the comparator base on the calipers including what you recommended and it still is a no-go.
Hi guys I enjoyed your video and am glad to see you're running a rock chucker press like me. I saw a post about the wire snap clip that holds the seat in the press, and that it can tip the seat unevenly and cause concentricity problems. To solve this he took the clip off and used a small rubber band. Because you guys have the concentricity gauge I'm curious if you could try the rubber band idea and see if it would reduce your runout.
Nice vid. Never thought of the the powder creating concentricity problems...interesting. Definitely agree about the powder changing the OAL also agree about spinning the round 180 degrees and seating a second time. Here's a thought for a future vid. I say this because a guy in my shooting circle has had some interesting experiences with concentricity. He used the Hornady concentricity tool to basically ruin (i.e. Create very VERY non-concentric) 308 loads. The results were still tiny little groups at 300 yds. Actually, they were some of the best groups he ever shot. It makes us wonder if concentricity really matters that much... I would love to see a c-test with 5 cases each
I've wondered about that. Certainly less runout is better. But yes, at some point you're better off spending your time practicing.
How would a 2 foot drop tube work for powder charge dumping?
If you read the directions with the Hornady Comp and Anvil, the slot is cut off center, depending on which side you insert the brass screw will change how it centers on the calipers.
We're aware of how to use the comparator anvil/base. The particular unit that Ed has appears to have a manufacturing defect. No matter how you orient the base to the calipers the base it self is canted slightly to one side which will not allow the base of a cartridge to sit true to be measured accurately.
Yup
About the OAL gauge base, I think its much more reassuring that you know the case is squared up using the base. It has a much bigger flat surface for the whole case head to seat on. Its easy to square up along the caliper jaws but the axis perpendicular to the jaws is tough to square up to w/o the base. Wiggling the case while putting slight push pressure on the caliper thumb wheel also helps. By the way my Hornady base and cylinder are all lined up, try switching the thumb screw location on the cylinder instead.
Mike we appreciate you sharing your comments and suggestions. Thanks for watching the video.
6.5 Guys
Greetings from South Africa.
Crazy glue an "o ring", on the base
that way you'll always get consistent readings
PS appreciate you're iinfo sharing and love your channel.
regards
Shane
Thanks Shane!
Hello Gentleman and excellent as always. I have started to use the swirl technique through the powder funnel to help settle powder and whilst its not as efficient as the vibratory method, I have had success with it and it seems to work well for me. i guess the more techniques we have the more adaptive we become. Keep up the excellent work
Thanks Stuart!
if you haven't figured it out already. the hornedy comparator insert body has screw holes on both sides, so that it can be mounted in the center and out of the center. this is very important as it must be mounted out of the center when used with O.A.L. gauge.
Did u try adding a 10” tube to funnel so it drops down more uniform ?
Hey guys i have found that if your pour the powder down they side of the funnel, as it goes down the it will spiral around the funnel and disperse in the case much more densely than if i just drop it down the middle of the tube, also have you ever tried lubing the inside of the case necks to improve run out? I have tried it lately with positive results. Thanks for the videos
Josh
Thanks for watching Josh. What sort of lube do you use?
ozJman86 Interesting - let me know what you find out. I've heard of people using bullet lube but don't know of anybody first hand. I guess the challenge would be applying it consistently.
Hi Ed i did get some shooting in today without any lube and the vertical disappeared but runout is not as good as lubed, i will stick with non lubed cases and have ordered a redding competition seater to hopefully improve the runout on the rounds. I am confident this will be the way forward for more accurate ammunition for me.
My Hornady Comparator gauge & Anvil are perfectly in line on my Mitutoyo callipers. So you may have a faulty set. 👍🏼🇬🇧
Excellent idea in using the vibrating tooth brush lol .
if you guys look at your hornady base you will see a set screw on the other side and you use that to center the gauges up to make them even
I tried it both ways - just was easier using the bare caliper. Thanks for the advice though.
@@edmobley3 davidsayer is correct. Screws on both the base and the upper part have to have the screw on the same side, if one goes into the short end, make sure the other goes into the shot end as well. I have fixed all my bases by changing the screw around ..
Have you checked powder, settled by aggressive vibration, for degradation? It seems possible that an ultrasonic toothbrush, against the case wall could drive grains together with sufficient force to crack grains, or degrade coatings
Why would you? It vibrates on the shipping truck for hundreds of miles
Guys, I'm a competition Benchrest shooter and we all use long drop tubes ( around 12" )to get more powder in the case. Could be something you mite wan to try. Take care..
Indeed - something we might experiment with.
ALL my Hornady gauges line up perfectly.
high ed i would like to ask a question about powder.. i developed my rounds in winter... the gun ran very good shot 1/8 inch groups at 100 meters. i started now in summer to load for my next prs match same load same batch powder primers and heads.. the grouping opend up to 2 and a half moa and the muzzle velocity just went up with 200ft a second??? could it be that the powder dried inside the container??
I seriously doubt your powder dried up. While I would expect your load to run faster in the summer a 200 fps increase is pretty extreme unless your winter temps were below freezing and your summer temps were pushing three digits and you had a very temp sensitive powder. There must be some other factor at play to drive your velocities up that much.
I'm curious what the SD/ES of the unsettled COAL load versus the control COAL was...
Thinking that may be a cause of some COAL variance I'm seeing
+Wes Hickey Hi - we never fired the rounds. We're going on the hypothesis that more consistent seating depth = more consistency all around.
Greetings 6.5 Guys...... question on your thoughts. I have a stock RPR 6.5creedmoor with Terminator TT muzzle brake, Vortex HS LR XLR XD scope, and have loaded 120grn Berger BTHP Target - 140grn Hornady SST - 140grn Hornady Match BTHP. Three types of powder I use, Superformance - H4350, and IMR4350. All COL 2.845" measured by Hornady COL gauge -0.002" off the lands. Anyway I digress, I graphite tumble coat my bullets, and also use Moly coated. What are your thoughts, and or experience with these types of bullets? Could you do a test? and show the results? I think you would be actually amazed. I'm able to put 10 rounds into one ragged hole @100yrds, measured 0.737", and 10 shots in 1.274" at 200yrds. I will be testing my next loads at 3-4, and 500yrds for the May6th PRS match here...Cheers Guys.... thanks for the fantastic vids you guys make. btw moparmadman channel is competing with you GUYS LOL...thumbs up.
Thanks for sharing your experience. Interestingly enough, we don't know of anybody in our circle of shooters who tumble bullets. Tumbling in graphite is easy enough and worth playing around with.
I have some of the same issues with the ogive OAL gauge and the anvil base, the only thing I've found so far that makes it easier to get repeatable results is to turn the calipers up and let gravity settle the base of the round while closing the calipers Once I get my seating depth correct based on this usage (I usually hold the cartridge base very lightly after I know it's flat against the anvil base) I just put it away since I trust my micrometer die to stay fixed.
Thanks for watching and sharing your experience!
Thats cool, but whats the diff in accuracy?
Great video guys! Since I am new to reloading (6.5 Creedmoor) I have a question on Redding competition seating dies. I will be using Berger 140 VLD bullets. From my reading, do you recommend a Redding VLD Bullet Seating Micrometer to control runout and marring the bullets compared to the micrometer that came with the die set?
Thank you for a wealth of information!
Jack Hammer Hi Jack - thanks for watching! I'm not sure I totally understand the question. The Redding VLD Bullet Seating Micrometer seems to be designed to retro-fit conventional seating dies - at least that's how I understand them to work:
www.brownells.com/reloading/measuring-tools/micrometers/redding-vld-bullet-seating-micrometers-prod44705.aspx
If you bought a Redding micrometer seating die, it should work with VLD bullets - Redding can confirm. I'm using a Forster seater so I don't have direct experience. The proper seating stem should not mar the bullet.
Ed Mobley Thank you Ed!
Could you lay your load bullet tray in a dry RCBS sonic bullet cleaner? Would that settle all the power in the tray?
That is a creative suggestion that may actually work, but we haven't tested that method yet.
6.5 Guys , I have two concerns with this. Firstly, running an ultrasound dry (possible damage to the unit). Secondly, primer ignition from the ultrasound waves if they indeed even travel through air.
I haven’t done the research, but somebody should.
Just discovered your channel a couple if days ago. Really like it. By the way I was just using the Hornady tool in my reloading room prior to watching your vid. The reason your Hornady tools is out of alignment is that you must first put it in alignment and then tighten down the two
thumb screws. It works very well and is much easier to use for the base of your shell then the naked blade of the calipers.
Thanks for the comments!
Are drop tubes no longer being used?
We have a detailed write up at our web site: www.65guys.com
Always felt the best bullet seating technique is to start with a combination of components that don't have cases overfull. Compressed loads are by nature inconsistent, and there's really no justification for them. Now back to bullet seating?
Upon watching the case being revolved in the concentricity guage, I was curious if upon measuring a case that had a taper to it if the guage still would give a reliable concentric reading???
+Prairie Falcon My understanding is it will.
I avoid compressed loads, because more time is involved in seating the bullet. If you're compressing the powder to get more fps, go with a bigger cartridge and or longer barrel.
Never thought about settling powder. I'll try that. Thanks!
Just started watching your videos and enjoying them. But as far as that Hornady base plate goes it sucks I had the same problem glad it wasn't just me thought I was doing something wrong lol
Yes the base plate was very annoying but not so expensive that I pursued a refund. Thanks for watching!
Are you guys referencing Berger VLD Target projectiles, when you say "VLDs?"
That's correct. Thanks for watching!
I have a thrift store electric toothbrush that can shake the filled case to help settle the powder just a little.
It crunched 10% of the arm swing wow but if that's your best node remember that 10% area that it did crunch.Just thinking out load.Great video good slower speed for us old farts that are new at this awesome hobby thank you very much!
Guys what kind of caliber is that bullet
How bout this? Shoot a ten round min to max powder test. Then shoot a ten round col test. No one reads Lee’s book. He states that a powder that fills the usable capacity is good. He also proves that compressed charges are lower than declared “ dangerous” powder charges. Come to my place. I’ll disprove a whole lot of , arm chair viewers. Even your channel. I hope y’all make money from arm chair viewers.
Is there a concentricity tool in the market that isn’t made in china?
I use this
www.midwayusa.com/product/293879/forster-blue-ribbon-powder-funnel-with-long-drop-tube
and it settles the powder much better than the short funnels also better than tapping on the case body with a pen, that I have done in the past. I have not thought to try vibration but will.
next step would be to change from varget stick type to powder for better concentricity
Just use a long drop tube and pour slow.
I have the same exact issue with the lil Hornady base. Can't win em all.
and it's really not needed...
the vibrator talk was amazing
7:30 definitely using it wrong. put the thumb screw on the other side. itll line up and sit better.
I would think those runout tools could be greatly affected by inconsistencies in the brass. That vibrator comment. Ha!
Yes - I've noticed that as well. However little digs and divots in the brass move the needle in a jerky manner. The true runout is measured by the high and low positions of the dial. I think you're the first to catch the vibrator comment. Thanks for watching.
+Ed Mobley I was more surprised at Steves response. Anyway Ed, thanks for the responses. Go SEA!
Yeah, there are some areas where one doesn't want to probe any further.
LOL
my buddy lets them sit over night tapping it lightly once and a while. lets gravity di its job
...or just use a powder that fits in the case. Some people love wasting time and causing problems so they can "solve" them. Common sense is not very common these days.
That is not a safe loading practice you can not have proper bullet seating in that case and I would bet the bullet is jammed into the lands of the barrel also closing the bolt is sure to be in question, I been reloading for over 50 yrs.with your bad habits your headed for a disaster. find a different powder and a different reloading book.
1.don’t treat your calipers like an old lawnmower. Yes even cheap crappy ones.
2.align your gimmick round holders notches so u can use the base by milling the slots with end mill or key way cutter, whatever. Build shims to occupy all slop.
3. Watch machinist RUclips vids for proper caliper use
4. Stay humble. You/we know nothing, just a tad less ignorant everyday
5. Get a evil finch 9864 rimmer
6. Be careful rubbing hundreds of thousands of powder grains against one another at a gajillion HZ vibratory speed. Unlikely? Yea but very possible to end in a bad day
7. Stay on target?
SORRY
Ever stop to consider this: after you vibrate the case to settle the powder, you might be actually changing the physical characteristics of the powder...ie cutting the sticks of the powder shorter...who knows and how consistent is that. ? You might be affecting the burn rate. Only way to know is measure your bullet speeds with a very expensive chrono...not one that’s a couple hundred bucks. Then look at your spreads...that’s what matters. If you want concentricity trim, neck turn anneal your brass and remove the expander ball in your f/l die that ruins your necks when you resize. These affect your concentricity way more than what you all just showed. Peace out
no just filling voids.
The die is not made to the bullet shape.
Steve, you're the asian...i mean the numbers guy. What do you think?
Steve here... what specifically are your referring to in the video?
It was a joke...you always get the math questions. Its a stereotype thing. No offense meant