I was watching Rainn Wilson’s presentation on this channel from a few years ago just out of a learning opportunity. Then when Dr. Ahdieh’s video popped up, I was pleasantly surprised! As a former law school student at Texas A&M when he became our dean and having the opportunity to visit with him a few times, I appreciated hearing from him. As an evangelical Christian, it was interesting to learn about the Baha’i faith, and I enjoyed hearing his take on peace.
Thank you Mr. Ahdieh. I am sure you are a well-meaning scholar but many of the arguments you advance here do not satisfy the mildest degree of scrutiny. If humankind was at a child level in the past, why previous religions had designated the harshest punishments for their mistakes and sins (death, stoning, lashing, cutting limbs for theft and a tormenting description of hell for the soul)? We never treat children that way. Religions are not similar to school levels. Like you said, high school math complete the elementary level math but many of the teachings in the Baha'i Faith-and modern understanding of human rights-are based on the complete abolition of previous religious systems and teachings like slavery and inequality of men and women.
Thanks for your thoughts, Sarah. A few reactions, for whatever they might be worth: First, I think it's important to try (as best we can) to distinguish between the true essence of different faiths and various beliefs and views that have been appended to them over time. Thus, I'm not sure slavery was part of the true nature of relevant past religions - as opposed to something that was a distortion of the faith over time (in line with the other metaphor I drew, to the seasons). Social teachings, meanwhile, might be abrogated over time - because they no longer have applicability at a later point in time. Finally, in terms of the metaphor to human development, I didn't mean to suggest that earlier religions were reflected of how we teach or engage children. Rather, the point was that humanity's capacity for understanding has grown over time. So what we could understand at one point is different than what we can understand today.
@@robertahdieh6846 Dear Mr. Ahdieh, Thank you for your response. Slavery has way too many references in both the Old and the New Testaments to be discarded as gradual appendments over time . For example, please see 1 Peter 2:18, Colossians 3:22 and Exodus 21. Regarding the inferiority of women to men, see Timothy 2:12 and Ephesians 5:22. The inequality of men and women is also manifest in the Quran and the Hadith and known to pretty much everyone. Regarding the different stages of mankind: Increase in humanity's capacity for understanding over time is so obvious that explaining it with an analogy seems utterly unnecessary. So you create an illusion of purpose in the mind of your audience when you choose a specific analogy to describe this obvious phenomenon. In other words, you shouldn’t describe something a certain way if you don’t mean your analogy to encapsulate the point you are trying to make. There are so many analogies that could be used to describe the increase of human understanding over time, so when you liken the previous generations to children, you can’t escape the natural comparison that you create with your analogy. Comparing someone or a group of people to children reflects the innocence of childhood NOT lack of understanding about a certain topic that even affects adults. And this is why the harshness of previous religions becomes relevant (it would also be relevant to the case of uninformed adults, but more relevant when you use a child analogy). Also, the analogy you use to describe certain generations should reflect the reality of lives of those generations. A child knows that she is a child and her life reflects what is expected for and from a child. But if you tell thousands of slaves or infidels living under Islamic Caliphates who were either killed or paid Jazzyyah with humiliation that you live such painful lives because you are a child in the course of mankind development, I doubt you would hear a polite response. Best,
@sarahmcbeth9156 Hello there. Fellow non-Bahai who grapples with similar questions as you. The Bible verses and mentions of the Hadiths & the Holy Qu'ran are indeed, valid points that should be greatly considered when pondering the validity of religious institutions. I'd like to point out however, that is important to approach Mr. Ahdieh's response in 1. Good faith, that is, to understand the Baha'i assertion that it is indeed, an Abrahamic religion most suited to the problems of global society today (post Industrial Revolution); and 2. Within the context of "Divine Revelation" at the mark of modern society i.e., post Industrial Revolution & hence rapid globalization--when monumental events had simultaneously taken place such as the invention of the first telephone (1844 in morse code) and the abrogation of slavery in the US (1865). The application of Islamic jurispudence, for example, to a world that no longer needs extreme *segregation of gender* to implement birth control/create societal order - is one way of differentiating between Baha'i law and that of its Islamic predecessor. The same rationale can be applied to Christianity and its virulent relationship with colonization. While there is mention of violence in Biblical parables, nowhere in the New Testament did Christ promote the subjugation and genocide of entire populations. And yet, it would be disingenous to separate Christianity with colonization, white supremacy, etc. Because the Baha'i Faith is pretty recent in its inception, it is the only Abrahamic religion disassociated from religious conquest. 3. The question of religion is not binary. A false dichotomy arises when you ask questions like "Is religion good or bad?" You mentioned slavery under the Islamic Caliphate as well as Biblical verses citing the inferiority of women towards men. These are all true; and a relfection of Arabian/Hebrew societies at the time. But had it not been for the Prophet Muhammad, the opposing tribes at the time would have further pillaged and killed one another had he not introduced the concept of monotheism. The same can be said for Jesus Christ and His controversial relationship with Mary Magdalene, at a time when women were subordinate to men. Interpretation is important*. False dichotomy is a logical fallacy that frames the debate as a choice between God or no God* The Baha'i Faith merely provides a Fourth Way (after Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) to practice monotheism and worship the same God as Yahweh/God the Father/Allah; whilst emphasizing its oneness with other non-Abrahamic religions as originating from that same Source. The question of whether or not Baha'is make the world a better place, is an entirely separate question all together. "Thus by their fruit you will recognize them".
I was watching Rainn Wilson’s presentation on this channel from a few years ago just out of a learning opportunity. Then when Dr. Ahdieh’s video popped up, I was pleasantly surprised! As a former law school student at Texas A&M when he became our dean and having the opportunity to visit with him a few times, I appreciated hearing from him. As an evangelical Christian, it was interesting to learn about the Baha’i faith, and I enjoyed hearing his take on peace.
Rainn Wilson will be back in our live program tomorrow
Maybe these are all signs for you!
So glad you were able to watch the program. (Though Rainn is definitely better...) Would love to speak more anytime!
Very important for the people to understand about peace. He explained it beautifully.
Are these talks avaliable in an audio-only format? I've searched on Spotify and had no luck. I would love to have that option!
Thank you Mr. Ahdieh. I am sure you are a well-meaning scholar but many of the arguments you advance here do not satisfy the mildest degree of scrutiny. If humankind was at a child level in the past, why previous religions had designated the harshest punishments for their mistakes and sins (death, stoning, lashing, cutting limbs for theft and a tormenting description of hell for the soul)? We never treat children that way.
Religions are not similar to school levels. Like you said, high school math complete the elementary level math but many of the teachings in the Baha'i Faith-and modern understanding of human rights-are based on the complete abolition of previous religious systems and teachings like slavery and inequality of men and women.
Thanks for your thoughts, Sarah. A few reactions, for whatever they might be worth: First, I think it's important to try (as best we can) to distinguish between the true essence of different faiths and various beliefs and views that have been appended to them over time. Thus, I'm not sure slavery was part of the true nature of relevant past religions - as opposed to something that was a distortion of the faith over time (in line with the other metaphor I drew, to the seasons). Social teachings, meanwhile, might be abrogated over time - because they no longer have applicability at a later point in time. Finally, in terms of the metaphor to human development, I didn't mean to suggest that earlier religions were reflected of how we teach or engage children. Rather, the point was that humanity's capacity for understanding has grown over time. So what we could understand at one point is different than what we can understand today.
@@robertahdieh6846
Dear Mr. Ahdieh,
Thank you for your response. Slavery has way too many references in both the Old and the New Testaments to be discarded as gradual appendments over time . For example, please see 1 Peter 2:18, Colossians 3:22 and Exodus 21. Regarding the inferiority of women to men, see Timothy 2:12 and Ephesians 5:22. The inequality of men and women is also manifest in the Quran and the Hadith and known to pretty much everyone.
Regarding the different stages of mankind:
Increase in humanity's capacity for understanding over time is so obvious that explaining it with an analogy seems utterly unnecessary. So you create an illusion of purpose in the mind of your audience when you choose a specific analogy to describe this obvious phenomenon. In other words, you shouldn’t describe something a certain way if you don’t mean your analogy to encapsulate the point you are trying to make. There are so many analogies that could be used to describe the increase of human understanding over time, so when you liken the previous generations to children, you can’t escape the natural comparison that you create with your analogy. Comparing someone or a group of people to children reflects the innocence of childhood NOT lack of understanding about a certain topic that even affects adults. And this is why the harshness of previous religions becomes relevant (it would also be relevant to the case of uninformed adults, but more relevant when you use a child analogy).
Also, the analogy you use to describe certain generations should reflect the reality of lives of those generations. A child knows that she is a child and her life reflects what is expected for and from a child. But if you tell thousands of slaves or infidels living under Islamic Caliphates who were either killed or paid Jazzyyah with humiliation that you live such painful lives because you are a child in the course of mankind development, I doubt you would hear a polite response.
Best,
@sarahmcbeth9156 Hello there. Fellow non-Bahai who grapples with similar questions as you. The Bible verses and mentions of the Hadiths & the Holy Qu'ran are indeed, valid points that should be greatly considered when pondering the validity of religious institutions. I'd like to point out however, that is important to approach Mr. Ahdieh's response in
1. Good faith, that is, to understand the Baha'i assertion that it is indeed, an Abrahamic religion most suited to the problems of global society today (post Industrial Revolution); and
2. Within the context of "Divine Revelation" at the mark of modern society i.e., post Industrial Revolution & hence rapid globalization--when monumental events had simultaneously taken place such as the invention of the first telephone (1844 in morse code) and the abrogation of slavery in the US (1865).
The application of Islamic jurispudence, for example, to a world that no longer needs extreme *segregation of gender* to implement birth control/create societal order - is one way of differentiating between Baha'i law and that of its Islamic predecessor. The same rationale can be applied to Christianity and its virulent relationship with colonization. While there is mention of violence in Biblical parables, nowhere in the New Testament did Christ promote the subjugation and genocide of entire populations. And yet, it would be disingenous to separate Christianity with colonization, white supremacy, etc. Because the Baha'i Faith is pretty recent in its inception, it is the only Abrahamic religion disassociated from religious conquest.
3. The question of religion is not binary. A false dichotomy arises when you ask questions like "Is religion good or bad?"
You mentioned slavery under the Islamic Caliphate as well as Biblical verses citing the inferiority of women towards men. These are all true; and a relfection of Arabian/Hebrew societies at the time. But had it not been for the Prophet Muhammad, the opposing tribes at the time would have further pillaged and killed one another had he not introduced the concept of monotheism. The same can be said for Jesus Christ and His controversial relationship with Mary Magdalene, at a time when women were subordinate to men.
Interpretation is important*. False dichotomy is a logical fallacy that frames the debate as a choice between God or no God*
The Baha'i Faith merely provides a Fourth Way (after Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) to practice monotheism and worship the same God as Yahweh/God the Father/Allah; whilst emphasizing its oneness with other non-Abrahamic religions as originating from that same Source. The question of whether or not Baha'is make the world a better place, is an entirely separate question all together.
"Thus by their fruit you will recognize them".
Host is great but should dress more professionally. Thank you though. Programs are so helpful!