The Rise of Experimental Music in the 1960s documentary (2005)
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- Опубликовано: 1 дек 2024
- "Here's a Piano I Prepared Earlier" is a documentary film about experimental classical music in the 1960s. The program focuses on composers such as John Cage, Terry Riley, Steve Reich and Cornelius Cardew and their musical experiments and developments and how they influenced performers, audiences and composers from all backgrounds and genres.
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It showed how John Cage prepared pianos, and what he found worked and didn’t, mainly due to the stability of the items added to the strings. Cardew’s work with ‘The Scratch Band’ was also interesting and some of the innovation’s they came up with. They also showed an orchestra of varying ability playing works from the established repertoire, but with notes played incorrectly and out of sequence, thus producing a barely recognizable reproduction of familiar works.
Perhaps most interesting in the field of chance music was a waltz composed by the throw of dice based on a system proposed by Mozart, where numbers related to short motifs of music. They played the short piece at the end, thus creating a work of chance in part created by one of the most brilliant musical minds that ever lived, nearly 200 years before indeterminacy.
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How about you fucking put a correct video title first?
Manufacturing Intellect Genocide of Beauty: Cultural Marxism in the arts
whiterottenrabbit Genocide of Beauty: Cultural Marxism in the arts
On a serious note, are you able to help me find a documentary Michael Tippett made with Channel 4 at the end of his life please? If you guys know any links to it be so grateful!
yet again the dull white male, english speaking discourse. While experimental music, for the the sake of it, was going allover the world.
In Japan, in Russia, in India, even Ethiopia, Brazil, Cuba etc etc. However little did these white pioneers sitting in England, America or Germany know much.
Do not pay a cent to these hacks and patreon. Pathetic hope economy of labor.
“John Cages 4:33, originally not played on piano, but here, not played by a full orchestra” brilliant 😂
That was my favorite. I was laughing at loud at it, which caught the attention of my wife. John Cage worked at and taught and played at my old school, Cornish College of the Arts. His work with Merce Cunningham will live forever, I hope. But, yeah - that was amazing ha ha haaaa!!!
I have enjoyed many inventive performances of this masterpiece
I played it on Air Guitar
If I go to my garage and not build a stool can I still call it a stool ?? would you want to sit on??and can I call myself a brilliant woodworker??
The Omission of Women pioneers such as Meredith Monk, and Pauline Oliveros is GLARING, and Borderline CRIMINAL!
There is no place for woman in music I think that must be the obvious reason chief
@@poisoneddog2967 - I am sure That's a Fucking Joke - right?
@@poisoneddog2967 - and your "Channel" has NO Content! That say's it ALL - Chief!
@@markdarnell614 of course it was old chap didn't even know I had a channel 🤣
@@poisoneddog2967 Ahhh! Had me Goin'! Have a Good One!
Oh, if every brilliant performer were as beautifully humble as John Tilbury. The outstanding Cardew could not have dreamt of a more thorough, thought-provoking biographer. My respect for John knows no bounds.
I'm a Gavin Bryars fan for some 30 years now - this documentary is pure gold to me! 👍
So many of my favourite composers ! A joy to watch !!
That was just fantastic. Loved every second of it.
why are we talking on phones? even these people realize how ridiculous this is. great material for sure!
I been on a continuous drive into expertimental avant garde music, recently. Field recordings, plunderphonics, musique concrete ect. Its all so brilliant and timeless. It has influenced many great bands as well. I been heavily into Matmos, i heard their whole discography in one sitting. I really enjoy hearing music being created from strange corners and structured in a boundary pushing manner.
Music is infinite. Music is ever-changing. Music is subjective. So don't ever let anyone tell you that what "real music" is. Don't let anyone be critical of your specific taste. If you enoy it, its soul for ya soul.
Great Comment!
Jose, recommend a book or two. I ned more of this open thinking to go with my outer space drone music
@@artistwintersong7343 "Silence" by John Cage is a must. Also, "Experimental Music" by Michael Nyman.
@@spacerockwizard "Greatest Thread Of All Time" GTOAT.
Also' Keywords in Sound,' a book. This is great!
@@spacerockwizardthanks just purchased the book
7:20 John cage
7:40 super imposition
8:15 John cage completely silent 4 minutes 33 seconds
10:30 screw percussive piano
11:15 Terry Riley in C (minimalism)
15:40 Steve Reich tape loops (minimalism)
17:20 Steve reich clapping music
20:00 Yoko Ono / Eric Anderson Fluxus
20:30 Cornelius Cardew AMM
22:00 Gavin Bryars
24:30 Scratch orchestra
26:00 Cornelius Cardew the great learning
26:55 stockhausen Beulahs avant garde
28:45 Jackson Pollock and Rhaskos
30:15 gavin bryars the sinking of the titanic
31:30 David Bedford with 100 kazoos
32:45 The Beatles, Roxy music, Bryan Eno (obscure records), Frank Zappa
34:00 Steve reich, Phillip glass
34:00 Gavin Bryars Jesus blood (recording of an old man)
40:15 Social collective music making
40:30 John White drinking and hooting machine
42:00 Fire in a pet shop (irony) Portsmouth Sinfonia
43:50 George Frederic Handel chorus Hallelujah
45:00 Richard strauss
45:40 Michael Nyman
46:20 Daniel Miller TVOD
"Improvisation/jamming", "sampling", "looping", "synthesizers/keyboards" & all "effects pedals" used by guitarists are courtesy of/or created by "Experimental Music" ! This is why it's the most important category of music.
Well improvisation/jamming was part of west African music that was brought over by the slave trade, but the rest I agree with
Without experimentation there is no change
@@philipp8429What instruments did those west African slaves bring over with them?
And presumably, if those slaves were in chains, how/why were they allowed instruments?
And precisely what music theory did those slaves know, so they could "improvise/jam?
Did they utilize the major scale in West Africa?
@@tomcarl8021well, while you are making a good point in challenging this nonsense, it’s worth pointing out that improvisation exists in pretty much all traditions of music. And probably none more than Indian classical. But also most folk musics.
@@tomcarl8021 they did bring their heads, did they not?
As an experimental hip hop producer, there is a treasure trove of samples in this documentary. I even heard one MADLIB used starting at 15:48. We all hear things differently. #STAYCREATIVE 👍🏾✌🏾✊🏾
You are a shit fraud.
technically that's Steve Reich, not this documentary. madlib sampled steve Reich, not this documentary.
@@djpopcorn#fact
What a fascinating programme! I was hoping to see an excerpt from the 1963 performance of Satie's Vexations, which included John Cage and John Cale in the list of performers...
Seeing John Cage wearing Deeleeboppers is what I needed to see today!
Mink 1973 Genocide of Beauty: Cultural Marxism in the arts
I remember that the first time it was shown. Has always stuck with me.
"4'33 (1'04 version)" got me hahahaha
Yeah, but at the expense of missing out some of the best bits of the piece.
I prefer various remixes over the original
Especially at high resolution
the phone gimmick is rather unfortunate, but what a great doc!
Facts
Huge appreciation for uploading this, thank you so much. one of the best documentaries not just on anti music, but in general. total mind opener. i now have so much to research. cheers
All of the strangest music was always my favorite. I still enjoy standard approach to songs. But odd music definitely has a special place for me.
At 30:35 the editors having fun. See the ship in the background that sinks?
27:10 That's the best kick I got out of watching anything in a long time
Saved in the watch list.
Great stuff. Who thought the phone idea was a good one lol
haha why are they talking nervously into rotary phones. looks like theyre handling some kind of hostage crisis
"talking nervously into rotary phones" is the best name for an experimental piece omg
my sentiments exactly.
Its kinda feels like they are phoning it in...
I don’t think this is the right forum for asking “why”
But I think we can conclude that not all good ideas age equally well.😅
This is an excellent documentary!
oh isn't this wonderful. ! thanks for posting this
Yes, it really is!
Back in the 90's there was this syndicated short-form nature doc that would air on my local tv station late at night. The thing I remember was that the music was really etherial, strange and challenging - very experimental. I would sample it and turn it into an ambient composition. I remember thinking that it was not your typical soundtrack to a nature doc.I believe it had an italian producer??? I wish I could find them. But so far no luck, I cant think of the name of the production - but the music was really cool.
Maybe HUNTERS by the Residents?
No but thanks for trying :)@@Dulundum
I don't know but keep entering your queries and the algorithms will scour the realm to bring it to you, then other algorithms will put stupid ads up; what a waste...
Good luck, hang in there, it's coming back to you...
Oh, I just noticed your comment is FOUR YEARS AGO.
Wonder if you found it...🤔🧐
Let me tell you... if I ever had any DVD or VHC or LD of this video I'd never sell it and take it with me when it's time to go and bite dust. Viewing it free here on RUclips is the reason why I pay for ad-free! Thanks for posting. It's HUGE surprise for me.
Mind blown. The phrase «Come out to show them» is also used repeatedly in Captain Beefheart’s song «Moonlight on Vermont» from Trout Mask Replica.
Also in the Beefheart sung Zappa tune “Poofter’s Froth Wyoming Plans Ahead” (on Bongo Fury).
it is also present in the song “America’s Most Blunted” from MF DOOM.
Brian Eno in the choir at 44:06
great documentary!
to be fair this is experimental music of north america - and cage the father of experimental music? i don't know
how about pierre schaeffer, luc ferrari or luigi russolo in the 1920s? even stockhausen did a lot besides parameter composing - fully determined and completely free pieces
there are plenty other experimental composers - honestly, why does it always have to be the americans - every cultural developement?
also minimalism took a lot of ideas from indian music
Yeah I've watched the first ten minutes then skimmed through the rest, no focus on french and german experiments. It seems like it's really biased though, not mentioning Stockhausens electric studies at all, no mention of Schönbergs theory and the italian futurism as you said. As much as I like the american stuff, it realy loses any gravity without the european context
Let's not confuse "experimental" and "avant-garde," though. Schaeffer, Russolo, Varèse, etc. still composed essentially traditional music, just using newly created instruments and/or compositional techniques. Schoenberg's Zwölftontechnik also is definitely not "experimental" so much as traditional music written with a new harmonic Satz. Stockhausen did embrace experimentalism to some extent, of course, as did Boulez, but most of that was catalyzed through their close correspondence with Cage (who himself studied with Schoenberg).
"Experimentalism" isn't just creating music which sounds new; as the documentary discusses, it's a wholly different attitude toward the creative process. It's analogous in this way to something like Dada or surrealist poetry, but in music it absolutely historically comes out of America. (sidenote - I also wouldn't say Cage's works for prepared piano count as "experimental;" they're essentially just traditional music written in a situation where he couldn't fit a whole percussion orchestra in the pit)
Yeah, missing the influence of Satie on minimalism (and on fluxes!) and I would include Webern as well. And later Luigi Nono, Luciano Berio and Eliane Radique. As much as I love Terry Riley and Steve Reich there was other stuff going on - like Pandit Pran Nath’s influence - or Americans like Zappa who was strangely European in style despite his love of US pop. And if you’re going to mention experimental US musicians you can’t ignore jazz experimentalists like Coltrane or Ornette.
I'd say the Indonesian Gamalan had a big influence on Steve Reich, Terry Riley, Phillip Glass. "Legend has it that when the French classical composer Claude Debussy first encountered Javanese gamelan at the 1889 World’s Fair in Paris, he was utterly entranced, returning again and again to hear the ensemble play."
Funny how techno might have been inspired by minimalism, but a good rave is a massive overload of the senses :p
I thought the same, especially that screw piano
Derick Bailey (guitar) late 1950s thru 2005. Freestyle jazz improvisation (Noise)
Laurie Spiegel, Pauline Oliveros, Delia Derbyshire... ???
Omitting Pauline Oliveros should be a prosecutable crime
What a fantastic find in my RUclips feed! I should go buy a lottery ticket…
very basic, very androcentric and - surprise surprise - very anglocentric documentary, but it's worth a view if you're new to experimental music
"It's not experimental if you know what you want." - Tomas Svoboda
great,, thanks for sharing
I'm glad we're over it :-). We mostly remember minimalists now and that fundamentally is different from avante-garde, experimental, modernist etc... it just happend they were close to those guys. Music is an emotional art and experimentalists fundamentally lacked that skill and understanding.
DOOM/Madlib sample in the first minute
The "best" English contemporary classical music in The States was found on the Argo label which I believe was UK Decca's specialty label. PS For those less adventurous but still adventurous, try enjoying one if not all of Britten's string quartets.
interesting docu, the thing they do with the telephones is pretty weird
yet fascinating
@@saoirsestark3903 i'm imagining some sort of panel meeting about what's needed to spice up this documentary and that was the only thing they could come up with
@@Mauroleiicus LOL phones are nice haha
I'm thinking of the phones here as sort of a ZOOM meeting--before ZOOM meetings.
You could say its pretty experimental
I've always loved that phase of experimental music where we discovered we could use computers to make music and just made a whole lot of archaic nonesense.
How could it be archaic and nonsensical when it was all about vanguardism, experimentation and computed music wasn't discovered yet? And now that almost everyone is computing everything what do we have? Spotified narrowness!
@IL4MR - I remember stumbling across a copy of Charles Dodge's "Earth's Magnetic Field" LP as a teen and reading the sleeve notes thinking it sounded amazing. Archaic nonsense is the perfect description for it. Literally just random gloops and whirs for 30 minutes, tuneless and unlistenable. But that's conceptual art for you I guess.
Esther Beaty Genocide of Beauty: Cultural Marxism in the arts
Desperate Mohammedan the World's Strongest Arab Genocide of Beauty: Cultural Marxism in the arts
Desperate Mohammedan the World's Strongest Arab Genocide of Beauty: Cultural Marxism in the arts
I would argue against techno being influenced by minimalism; i think it was just a natural outgrowth of disco and electro pioneered by Detroit DJs whom I somehow doubt were deep into experimental classical music. Good doco though
No influence at all. Just pretentious toffs trying to ingratiate themselves with the masses.
ruclips.net/video/Gi4vzEoJXHU/видео.html
Detroit djs were definitely listening to Kraftwerk though who were absolutely influenced by minimalists.
Has experimental instrumental music ever
combined horror and more upbeat music?
if so what are some examples?
Cage's 4 minutes of silence is a JOKE. What a stupid, idiotic waste of time. The audience is clapping at the end. PhD indeed......academic bamboozlement...
@@fk2106 cry harder I'm almost finished
Thanks for uploading! Was that Victor Lewis Smith narrating?
I was fascinated by Todd Dockstader's "Water Music" from the release "Drone" on Owl Records. I imagined a trip through the inside of a household plumbing system. Too unconventional for commercial radio, you could only hear it on public radio.
And considering the time period when these emerged, "trip" may be the most appropriate characterization.
bloody great!
Robert Fripp? Are you IN there?!?
love it!!
Hats off to the BBC for this
As much as I enjoyed it, I couldn't but notice that all these happened in an era when the NATO states would pump a ridiculous amount of money into arts in their effort to show off to the Warsaw Pact States what they can achieve. After the dissolution of this Pact they would just import all the artists from the former Warsaw Pact states and invest there through private initiates. I am afraid that the West must trust its own kin again much better and not self censor what it can achieve!
Couldn’t watch this. The movement, this particular one, started well before the sixties, but if I were to watch a documentary about the sixties, I’d prefer-no require-it to be made in the sixties.
what is the cage prepared piano piece at 11:50?
Sonatas and Interludes. Not totally certain but a proper guess.
You are right
The BBC makes it a nice package. Again. In the end revolving around the British. Fish & chips. Clean and simple. Within 50 minutes. And back to… Grrzsssmmah. The normal life, presently new normal. Presented by the BBC. And such. Oh, doting on the recent past. Nostalgia…
0:53 woahh can anyone tell me what this is? I recodnize it from madvillainy
It's a piece by steve reich called Come Out (1966)
@@kelechi_77I did end up finding it after leaving this comment, I was already a huge fan of his but that piece is one of the coolest things I've ever listened to
Stockhausen, Maderna, Ramati, Berio, Moran all missing...
All fucking shit that's why!
Nono...
Thank god ! Pretentious crap.
@@2112jonr LOL... Maderna pretentious... go back to books kid... Maderna directed orchestras at 9
Victor Lewis Smith. Gawd bless yer Sir!
32:45 The Beatles, Roxy Music, Brian Eno and Frank Zappa, but where the f*** is John Cale and The Velvet Underground and their influence on Pop and Rock music? Their musical influence of bringing in the Avant-garde and experimentation into these exploding genres during the 60s was far greater and relevant than any of the previous mentioned artists here.
They opened up the door to the upcoming universe of Punk and Alternative music.
John Cale brought in that sinister menace into the Velvets groundbreaking sound and actually should have been co-credited for the music on those two seminal albums, but unfortunately Lou Reed's massive ego got in the way.
Cale had worked and studied under the guidance not only of John Cage and LaMonte Young, but also under Yannis Xenakis, who I haven't seen mentioned here either.
After Cale was ousted from the Velvets, Cale went on to produce and arrange Nico's lp trilogy The Marble Index, Desertshore and The End, which would have a massive impact on Postpunk and Goth.
Furthermore he produced those milestone debut albums by The Stooges, Patti Smith and The Modern Lovers.
I'm still baffled that his contribution to contemporary music is still generally so overlooked, most likely this has to do with him being Welsh and not English, as there is a certain jingoism within the UK (music) press (including you BBC).
Most probably the likes of the NME, Melody Maker or Sounds would have herralded him as one of the musical Godfathers like Lou, Iggy and Bowie, dating as far back to the late 70s and early 80s, when the Velvets influence became aparent, had it him being English and not Welsh. Another reason for mainly being permenantly overlooked was Lou Reed, who made almost everybody believe the Velvets was entirely his brainchild with a bit of Warhol and Nico besides, which is still the general and superficial narrative until today.
does anybody know the direct source from this
This was pretty bad. ALways a focus on anglosaxon music, omitting the GRM and the Köln studio, omitting the true pioneers of british avant garde electronics, such as the BBC radioworkshop, and more importantly Trevor Wishart...
I would like to learn more. I've never heard of these.
@@wellesradio well, I show and play their records regularly in my weekly music streams, amongst other things, but there are plenty of books about all these institutions, I think ^^ happy new year !
❤
they can't talk about the BBC radio workshop because they would need to mention not paying them properly
Wished they'd expounded more on LaMonte Young, John Cale, and Terry Riley. No Pauline Oliveros or SunRa ? I get it, it's the 'beeb' and it was under an hour, but get with the program.
There’s a two part documentary by the BBC on minimalism. La Monte Young, Riley, Reich and Glass. It’s on youtube. Something with Drones and Arpeggios in the title.
thanks for posting
Cage piece “4:33” with full orchestra instead of just piano makes the sound richer. But not much, still audience grunts and coughs are most of it since musicians try to restrain themselves.
Could you please subtitle it? I can help but I'm unable to understand all the sentences.
Yes please!
Anyone know the name of the John Cage piece on the prepared piano?
Think I worked it out, it sounds like "Sonata no. 5 for prepared piano" for anyone else wondering. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
@@Empero-Sanguine It will be one of the Sonatas and Interludes, but I don't have your investigative stamina
Well, I am very experimental and film music, and I just really enjoyed. I’ve always been interested in a innovation though… within the other genre, there is a fine line between junkie experimental and actually quality experimental, but that’s all subjective, isn’t it?
5:11 what a sound. can't stop coming back to this part. does anybody know what is this recording and where to get the full version?
Don't know which version that's from but there's a full recording here ruclips.net/video/b0V9_xqaw8Q/видео.html
@@notgalen Sorry for the late response. That link is very appreciated. Thank you! :)
@@shfunky No problem!
💚
0:14 where is that peace from?
TikTok'ers making nonsense need to drop their phones and watch these older folks talking about... making nonsense... into the phone.
Why does the audience think they have to sit in silence..lol, surely the whole point of the piece is to get you to listen to natural sounds.
Victor Lewis-Smith's in this, right?
Yes he's the narrator and the documentary was made by his production company Associated Redifusion.
@@geezertechhead Based
And Philip Glass, Terry Riley, Meredith Monk, or Pauline Oliveros aren't mentioned at all lol
Anyone know the dude at 0:30 ?
4:34
Bad performance of 4’ 33” by the orchestra. Not one of them with their instruments up...
I respectfully disagree. The less the potential for sound being produced, the more profound the silence. One could take it a step further, and leave the instruments in their cases, but there is a legal maxim that says, "hard cases make bad law."
@@OrdenJust I disagree. The struggle is part of the performance. How do I know? I asked him. That Is what the composer preferred
The piece is not silence, and I believe the story they say about the "I Ching" telling him not to write any notes is apocryphal. I've never heard it before at least, and can't find any sources.
In any case, Cage himself talked frequently about the work consisting of all of the sounds that happen in the hall, made by the environment and involuntarily by the performer and the audience themselves. The "performance" is a framework for the audience to listen as attentively as they would if the performer were playing. I'd think the orchestra having their instruments up would contribute immensely to this effect, but at the premiere of course, the pianist did start the piece by closing the lid. There also needs to be some indication of the three separate movements, which this orchestra does not do.
@@ja_cob_mus exactly. Well said.
That pretentious use of the red phones gives the impression that no one is actually listening to the person speaking.
Emphasises the tripe they're all waffling out of their mouths.
why did you put a watermark over this of your own channel Do you own this film ?
It will have been put out on BBC Four originally, maybe. I hardly notice the watermarks these days when I watch telly.
@@VamboMags The BBC watermark is ok.
Its the watermark which this channel uploader has added to the film. Almost claiming it as theirs . Its not needed.
44:07 - Eno!!!!
I guess because Its a doc on experimental music the director didn't want to take a normal approach buut this phone thing was. Such a bad idea
I would say......just Play!
whats with the phone thing ? lol weird.... cool doc though
BBC4 make some great shows
Another one who doesn't understand John Cage 4'33. it is NOT!~~!~!!!!! silence it is ambiance. The audience will notice highly mindful what 4'33 sounds like in their own surroundings.
Apparently, this is what killed classical music to the point that groups like The Beatles started to be heralded as composers.
The Beatles are amazing man
@@carolinacury8541 So is Cheez Whiz bro, for many.
great observation!
What's with the phone thing? Is this aimed at children?
Cool Doc, but the phones and dice are completely ridiculous
nice documentary, but i whish i could edit out the die-rolling part.
interesting but there is nothing here that is relatable which is fundamental in art and especially music . . .
I love experimental and avant garde music and i appreciate the philosophical and ideological aspects of 4'33 but to actually have a symphony play it like cmon 😂 how are they all straight faced? And the fuckin dude in the crowd with his hand contemplatively on his chin is too good! id be trying so hard not to laugh (but it would be all part of the performance i guess, right?)
Telephone line (ELO)
"The motivation for the sounds is more important than the final result." You don't say?
Shows what a complete load of tosh it all is. Toffs playing with taxpayers money for life and laughing at us poor sods, who fund their talentless hobbies.
dear the pronounce should be EEEE-jing 7:32
27:52 Titanic brought again to life???
An expensive in-joke, because Gavin Bryars (interviewed in foreground) composed The Sinking of the Titanic in 1975. The BBC had the Titanic reconstructed for this shot at an estimated cost of £400m. Or possibly used CGI.
@@momasuyes, I know that track and I love it. As I love "Jesus blood..."
Talking to phones…strange
UHHHHHH, Ok, Interesting, Yeah, very interesting.Hmmmmmm.
"Yoko Ono... in the early 1960s she lived in New York, where she belonged". I've judiciously edited the quote, but...
Let me see if I can get Harry Partch and The Residents on the phone ☎️ for you. Oh pardon me , I almost forgot that there is politics involved.
NEVERMIND
7:37
🙂
I wonder if any orchestra member has ever farted very loudly during "4.33 Minutes of Silence"....