UPDATE LAB ANALYSIS: Latest video here of 9 different brands showing lab test analysis results: ruclips.net/video/dQOi9G6zskE/видео.html including UDT2, Permatran 821XL, Amsoil, Mobil Delvac, Rural King Providence, Walmart Super Tech, Tractor Supply Traveller, Lucas, and John Deere Hy-Gard
@@therealsideburnz I'm not planning any more lab testing at this time, but you could do it for $35 (or $45 if you want to know the TAN). Blackstone will send you a sample bottle for free and all you need to do is mail in the sample and wait a few weeks, then compare what you get to the spec table in the lab test video.
Sorry, I can't offer any opposing view. I agree with you, after seeing the numbers you collected (thank you for doing that) and considering that my tractor is new and under warranty, I'll stick with the AGCO oil. It's more expensive than the bargain brands, but they are no bargain if they cause system failure that won't be covered by warranty because I'm running an unapproved oil. My Dad used to tell me, "When you buy the cheapest version of something, you get what you pay for."
You hit the nail on the head. I run a lot of equipment and do oil samples on a lot of it. Had this debate with my mechanic and after contacting oil sample lab they said that any variations out of spec was always an off brand oil! They merge several base oils that end up with variations in the end product. You have to consider the risk and expense of failure and whether or not the price of oil savings is worth the possible failure. Not for me.
Good factual Video , love the way you do your spreadsheet, you convinced me to go with the GC with it ;-) . I decided to stay with AGCO too, price is good here in canada too and one good aspect of it is it probably help my local dealer stay in buisness wich is good for them and for other massey user like me around here :-).
Thanks for the video Ed. I'm sticking with Agco. An extra $60 bucks isn't going to break the bank for me. PS - The Mobile 80W sounds like the gear box oil that you would use on a post hole digger gear box.
You nailed it! The exact line from the Mobile sheet is that in addition to Delvac being compatible with hydrostatic transmissions and hydraulic systems, it is is also suitable for "Applications requiring API GL-4 or SAE 80W grade lubricants in all gear applications." I guess they are saying that this one fluid which they also call Mobilefluid 424 works in all of those applications.
I opted for the Shell Rotella HD. It is 10w30. My 2022 GC1723EB tractor manual says you need to meet the Massey M1145 spec, which this does. Locally, it was just under $100 at Napa, whereas the Permatran is $150 if you can get it.
Hmmm, I see that now. $96.99 here at my local NAPA. The last time I price checked Permatran before going to Aghriteer, their online price was $113 for a 5 gal container, but only $84 when I purchased in person. If the same proportions hold true next time I go, then Permatran is going to be in that $95 range as well. Won't know until I go there. Can you tell me where in the manual the M1145 spec is referenced? I just searched the April 2022 manual and it's not in there. That manual still says Permatran or equivalent.
@@Redneck_Ed You are correct, the manual just says "or equivalent". I researched the Massey Ferguson website and the current spec for Permatran 821XL is M1145, so that is the equivalent. I also found something on the MF website that says "Shell's commitment to quality, technology, and safety make them the perfect partner in developing, manufacturing and supplying AGCO genuine oils products to our exact specifications." In my mind, if Shell is good enough to make the MF oils, then their own branded products should be a good substitute, as long as they meet the same M1145 spec. The MF website also has a table listing the AGCO part number and cross references to the Shell part number. It is all a bit convoluted, but that was what all led me to believe that the Shell oil was an acceptable equivalent.
@@Galego_66 Great tip on that AGCO brochure and cross referencing to Shell. I added a link to it in the description of this video. It's international, but seems to be a pretty clear indication that Shell is in the "equivalent" category per AGCO.
Great Informative Unbiased Video. I even picked up a Good Point when you mentioned lack of information or test data on Aftermarket Oils. I know from Dealer Side Training that Oil Testing is Very Expensive especially when it comes to rating oils like the API (American Petroleum Institute) Specs & Grades. Many Years ago I heard $150,000 a Test on Engine Oils to test up to the next Classification Level. Also some Manufacturers and some of the Base Oil & Additives Suppliers continually test their products. The Additive Supplier for AGCO Lubricants has over Trillion Hours of Lab Testing (Wonder what that Diesel Fuel Bill Costs???). There's lots of Great Oils Out there and There's some not so great or but to call not the same. Depends on Base Oil Stock they start with additives package costs, Testing Costs, and more. Actually AGCO Parts offers 3 Permatran 821XL Oils 1) Permtran 821XL (As in Video - Gold Label) 10W30 Viscosity Grade (DO NOT USE FOR ENGINE OIL - Just the Grade, Flowability Level), Also have for our Big Tractors with Fendt CVT Transmission (Green Label) 15w40 Viscosity Grade, and also a Cold Climate Permatran 821XL (Blue Label) 5W-20 Viscosity Grade. Then they also offer the ISO Hydraulics Oils , ATF Automatic Transmission and they Own Sparex which has Hydraulitc Transmission Fluid for Legacy Model Tractors. There's lots of Oils from One Manufacturer to take care of their machines and Actually 2 Approved for the GC Series Tractors. Brookfield Viscosity Test is one of the Test that is done on Hydraulic Oils to Test Friction of Oil upon StartUp. Very important in low temperatures. The Lower the Number the Fast the oil moving through the system. The Lower the Number the faster the oil is moving through the system. A Number as high as 70,000 can still be viable fluid by Oil Industry guidelines. AGCO SemiSynthetic Permatran 821XL (Gold Label) Brookfield @ -35° C, cP (Centipose) 39,000 AGCO Low Temperature Permatran 821XL (Blue Label) is 19,000 Brookfield @ -35°C, CP. Blue flow faster in cold weather but you don't want to use in warm climates as it can flow too good and not protect vital components. M-1145 is the Most Current Massey Ferguson Specification. The Older Levels are often printed on the Container but are olds specs like M-1143 was prior recommended spec and M-1141 was prior to that. If your Oil does not have M-1145 Spec is it not current level for the requirements of the tractor. There have been several lawsuits in recent years by State Attorney Generals over the John Deere 303 Spec that aftermarket oil companies where using. This spec had been replaces and was no a valid spec because it was originally a Whale Oil Base Product from way back in the Mid 1960's and mislead consumers if was safe to use in their tractors and the courts issues cease order to stop production and removal of the product. It's hard for customers to keep up with specs is it for a dealer too but I'm an Oil Addict and like to learn the differences and had had some opportunities to discuss with Manufacturer and Industry Professionals. I actually did a video from some of my learning: ruclips.net/video/jIEHu5nM_3U/видео.html Final Thoughts: I love your thoughts on oil and costs and protection for your tractor. As a dealer it sure makes it easier if you do have a claim and using AGCO Parts Products it's covered and no loss of sleep as a customer that your protected. Maintenance is a inexpensive expense when you compare to cost of the components you are protection and the investment you made. At least during the warranty period I highly recommend considering using OEM Filter & Oil. And you might want to consider as many times it's not much more or even less cost. especially Filters when comparing the correct cross references. What you do after warranty that is your own decision. But like a customer told me : "Do you buy the Cheapest Whiskey for your Cocktail? It makes a drink but it's not the same as the Good Stuff: Advice from Industry Professional that I have remembered and good words when comparing "Don't Judge Oil on One Feature or Spec alone but the Complete Package Offering"
First, thank you for commenting. Your comment is now pinned to the top. Your video is outstanding, and it was one that I watched while researching before I published my video. Your point about testing expense rings true for other industries too. At my old job we would integrate products manufactured by HP, for example, into our systems and then charge more money for an HP network switch you could by from CDW. com for way less. The integration work was a big part of the cost, but the continuous testing for ongoing compatibility was also a big part of the expense. Honestly, making money for the company was on that list too, but why fault a company for trying to make money off of a service that brings value to their customers?
@@VahrenbergImplement with these long winded responses, YOU TWO BOOK BOYS MUST BE IN CONSTANT EJAC---ATION. BOTH OF YOU, PLEASE LIST CONFIRMABLE ACTUAL EXPERIENCE, IN DECADES, AS ACTUAL MECHANICS OR SOME TYPE OF REAL EXPERIENCE TO BACK UP YOUR SUPPOSED KNOWLEDGE.
@@twintwo1429 We have only been a Farm Equipment Dealership since 1952. Been to numerous training seminars and experience with seeing the differences in our service department and effects. There are lots of differences in how oils are created and how manufacturers create what they sell. I tell our customers it sure makes it easier to use the OEM manufacture products during warranty as there is no question you are covered. Often it's very little price difference for the peace of mind your using the right stuff.
I bought a backhoe with really contaminated fluid ive changed it twice with the cheaper fluid maybe 20 to 25 gallons changed each time Ill probably do that one more time and then put the good stuff in the last time , its looks a little better each time
@@Redneck_Ed google it. Its the best way for you to verify what I said. My manual is for the T25A, T25A2, AND T25A3. MOSTLY IN RUSSIAN, BUT NAME BRAND IS OBVIOUS.
Lol, that is awesome. The whole idea of my channel is to talk about and show ideal ways of doing things, but also ways of doing it good enough so things work! 15/40, the new catch all lubricant!
No, you are incorrect. Mobile is Tractor Hydraulic Fluid as stated in the video title and shown in the video thumbnail. It's actually the fluid that some AGCO dealers use instead of Permatran 821XL which is spec'd for the Massey hydrostatic transmissions with an internal hydraulic pump. It's also spec'd for the front axle of at least the Massey GCs instead of gear oil. What made you think that the Mobile product shown in the video was gear oil? The Mobile container with the THF label is shown more clearly in the follow-up video I did showing virgin sample lab testing results: ruclips.net/video/ii7GYEKUCrM/видео.html
UPDATE LAB ANALYSIS: Latest video here of 9 different brands showing lab test analysis results: ruclips.net/video/dQOi9G6zskE/видео.html including UDT2, Permatran 821XL, Amsoil, Mobil Delvac, Rural King Providence, Walmart Super Tech, Tractor Supply Traveller, Lucas, and John Deere Hy-Gard
Id love to see this. I’d be most interested to see IH Hytran compared.
@@therealsideburnz I'm not planning any more lab testing at this time, but you could do it for $35 (or $45 if you want to know the TAN). Blackstone will send you a sample bottle for free and all you need to do is mail in the sample and wait a few weeks, then compare what you get to the spec table in the lab test video.
Thanks for doing the work! I was wondering about alternatives. I'll stick with AGCO.
Sorry, I can't offer any opposing view. I agree with you, after seeing the numbers you collected (thank you for doing that) and considering that my tractor is new and under warranty, I'll stick with the AGCO oil. It's more expensive than the bargain brands, but they are no bargain if they cause system failure that won't be covered by warranty because I'm running an unapproved oil. My Dad used to tell me, "When you buy the cheapest version of something, you get what you pay for."
You hit the nail on the head. I run a lot of equipment and do oil samples on a lot of it. Had this debate with my mechanic and after contacting oil sample lab they said that any variations out of spec was always an off brand oil! They merge several base oils that end up with variations in the end product. You have to consider the risk and expense of failure and whether or not the price of oil savings is worth the possible failure. Not for me.
Glad i found your channel! Very useful information thank you!
Good factual Video , love the way you do your spreadsheet, you convinced me to go with the GC with it ;-) . I decided to stay with AGCO too, price is good here in canada too and one good aspect of it is it probably help my local dealer stay in buisness wich is good for them and for other massey user like me around here :-).
That's a great point about supporting the dealers.
Thanks for the video Ed. I'm sticking with Agco. An extra $60 bucks isn't going to break the bank for me. PS - The Mobile 80W sounds like the gear box oil that you would use on a post hole digger gear box.
You nailed it! The exact line from the Mobile sheet is that in addition to Delvac being compatible with hydrostatic transmissions and hydraulic systems, it is is also suitable for "Applications requiring API GL-4 or SAE 80W grade lubricants in all gear applications." I guess they are saying that this one fluid which they also call Mobilefluid 424 works in all of those applications.
I opted for the Shell Rotella HD. It is 10w30. My 2022 GC1723EB tractor manual says you need to meet the Massey M1145 spec, which this does. Locally, it was just under $100 at Napa, whereas the Permatran is $150 if you can get it.
Hmmm, I see that now. $96.99 here at my local NAPA. The last time I price checked Permatran before going to Aghriteer, their online price was $113 for a 5 gal container, but only $84 when I purchased in person. If the same proportions hold true next time I go, then Permatran is going to be in that $95 range as well. Won't know until I go there. Can you tell me where in the manual the M1145 spec is referenced? I just searched the April 2022 manual and it's not in there. That manual still says Permatran or equivalent.
@@Redneck_Ed You are correct, the manual just says "or equivalent". I researched the Massey Ferguson website and the current spec for Permatran 821XL is M1145, so that is the equivalent. I also found something on the MF website that says "Shell's commitment to quality, technology, and safety make them the perfect partner in developing, manufacturing and supplying AGCO genuine oils products to our exact specifications." In my mind, if Shell is good enough to make the MF oils, then their own branded products should be a good substitute, as long as they meet the same M1145 spec. The MF website also has a table listing the AGCO part number and cross references to the Shell part number. It is all a bit convoluted, but that was what all led me to believe that the Shell oil was an acceptable equivalent.
Another resource I found helpful: www.shell-livedocs.com/data/published/en-US/29b86953-ec15-4ef6-b490-f7b42207f79c.pdf
@@Galego_66 Great tip on that AGCO brochure and cross referencing to Shell. I added a link to it in the description of this video. It's international, but seems to be a pretty clear indication that Shell is in the "equivalent" category per AGCO.
Great Informative Unbiased Video. I even picked up a Good Point when you mentioned lack of information or test data on Aftermarket Oils. I know from Dealer Side Training that Oil Testing is Very Expensive especially when it comes to rating oils like the API (American Petroleum Institute) Specs & Grades. Many Years ago I heard $150,000 a Test on Engine Oils to test up to the next Classification Level. Also some Manufacturers and some of the Base Oil & Additives Suppliers continually test their products. The Additive Supplier for AGCO Lubricants has over Trillion Hours of Lab Testing (Wonder what that Diesel Fuel Bill Costs???). There's lots of Great Oils Out there and There's some not so great or but to call not the same. Depends on Base Oil Stock they start with additives package costs, Testing Costs, and more. Actually AGCO Parts offers 3 Permatran 821XL Oils 1) Permtran 821XL (As in Video - Gold Label) 10W30 Viscosity Grade (DO NOT USE FOR ENGINE OIL - Just the Grade, Flowability Level), Also have for our Big Tractors with Fendt CVT Transmission (Green Label) 15w40 Viscosity Grade, and also a Cold Climate Permatran 821XL (Blue Label) 5W-20 Viscosity Grade. Then they also offer the ISO Hydraulics Oils , ATF Automatic Transmission and they Own Sparex which has Hydraulitc Transmission Fluid for Legacy Model Tractors. There's lots of Oils from One Manufacturer to take care of their machines and Actually 2 Approved for the GC Series Tractors.
Brookfield Viscosity Test is one of the Test that is done on Hydraulic Oils to Test Friction of Oil upon StartUp. Very important in low temperatures. The Lower the Number the Fast the oil moving through the system. The Lower the Number the faster the oil is moving through the system. A Number as high as 70,000 can still be viable fluid by Oil Industry guidelines. AGCO SemiSynthetic Permatran 821XL (Gold Label) Brookfield @ -35° C, cP (Centipose) 39,000 AGCO Low Temperature Permatran 821XL (Blue Label) is 19,000 Brookfield @ -35°C, CP. Blue flow faster in cold weather but you don't want to use in warm climates as it can flow too good and not protect vital components.
M-1145 is the Most Current Massey Ferguson Specification. The Older Levels are often printed on the Container but are olds specs like M-1143 was prior recommended spec and M-1141 was prior to that. If your Oil does not have M-1145 Spec is it not current level for the requirements of the tractor. There have been several lawsuits in recent years by State Attorney Generals over the John Deere 303 Spec that aftermarket oil companies where using. This spec had been replaces and was no a valid spec because it was originally a Whale Oil Base Product from way back in the Mid 1960's and mislead consumers if was safe to use in their tractors and the courts issues cease order to stop production and removal of the product. It's hard for customers to keep up with specs is it for a dealer too but I'm an Oil Addict and like to learn the differences and had had some opportunities to discuss with Manufacturer and Industry Professionals. I actually did a video from some of my learning: ruclips.net/video/jIEHu5nM_3U/видео.html
Final Thoughts: I love your thoughts on oil and costs and protection for your tractor. As a dealer it sure makes it easier if you do have a claim and using AGCO Parts Products it's covered and no loss of sleep as a customer that your protected. Maintenance is a inexpensive expense when you compare to cost of the components you are protection and the investment you made. At least during the warranty period I highly recommend considering using OEM Filter & Oil. And you might want to consider as many times it's not much more or even less cost. especially Filters when comparing the correct cross references. What you do after warranty that is your own decision. But like a customer told me : "Do you buy the Cheapest Whiskey for your Cocktail? It makes a drink but it's not the same as the Good Stuff:
Advice from Industry Professional that I have remembered and good words when comparing "Don't Judge Oil on One Feature or Spec alone but the Complete Package Offering"
First, thank you for commenting. Your comment is now pinned to the top. Your video is outstanding, and it was one that I watched while researching before I published my video. Your point about testing expense rings true for other industries too. At my old job we would integrate products manufactured by HP, for example, into our systems and then charge more money for an HP network switch you could by from CDW. com for way less. The integration work was a big part of the cost, but the continuous testing for ongoing compatibility was also a big part of the expense. Honestly, making money for the company was on that list too, but why fault a company for trying to make money off of a service that brings value to their customers?
@@VahrenbergImplement with these long winded responses, YOU TWO BOOK BOYS MUST BE IN CONSTANT EJAC---ATION. BOTH OF YOU, PLEASE LIST CONFIRMABLE ACTUAL EXPERIENCE, IN DECADES, AS ACTUAL MECHANICS OR SOME TYPE OF REAL EXPERIENCE TO BACK UP YOUR SUPPOSED KNOWLEDGE.
@@twintwo1429 We have only been a Farm Equipment Dealership since 1952. Been to numerous training seminars and experience with seeing the differences in our service department and effects. There are lots of differences in how oils are created and how manufacturers create what they sell. I tell our customers it sure makes it easier to use the OEM manufacture products during warranty as there is no question you are covered. Often it's very little price difference for the peace of mind your using the right stuff.
I bought a backhoe with really contaminated fluid ive changed it twice with the cheaper fluid maybe 20 to 25 gallons changed each time Ill probably do that one more time and then put the good stuff in the last time , its looks a little better each time
Example of a good manufacturers owners manual:
BELARUS tractor manual has a list of over 120 fluids that are approved for the machine.
That's impressive. Does that brand of tractor use THF like those shown in this video? Are any from this video on the list?
@@Redneck_Ed google it. Its the best way for you to verify what I said. My manual is for the T25A, T25A2, AND T25A3. MOSTLY IN RUSSIAN, BUT NAME BRAND IS OBVIOUS.
I know of one company that use 15/40 diesel oil in everthing.Engine,hydro static or hydraulic and it worked perfect.
Lol, that is awesome. The whole idea of my channel is to talk about and show ideal ways of doing things, but also ways of doing it good enough so things work! 15/40, the new catch all lubricant!
It’s obvious Mobil is gear lube the others are hydro oil, are you comparing hydraulic fluid or hydro transmission fluid?
No, you are incorrect. Mobile is Tractor Hydraulic Fluid as stated in the video title and shown in the video thumbnail. It's actually the fluid that some AGCO dealers use instead of Permatran 821XL which is spec'd for the Massey hydrostatic transmissions with an internal hydraulic pump. It's also spec'd for the front axle of at least the Massey GCs instead of gear oil. What made you think that the Mobile product shown in the video was gear oil? The Mobile container with the THF label is shown more clearly in the follow-up video I did showing virgin sample lab testing results: ruclips.net/video/ii7GYEKUCrM/видео.html
I'm going to use dealer oil I feel safer this equipment is expensive
That's probably a safe bet. Stay tuned though because I sent 4 of these brands off for lab testing. I'll be releasing that video soon.
@@Redneck_Ed thank you I will