Repairing the Rapid Traverse Clutch Pack on a Kearny & Trecker 2H Horizontal Mill
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- Опубликовано: 9 сен 2024
- Disassembling the drive on a K&T 2H Horizontal Mill and rebuilding the rapid traverse clutch pack to replace worn and weak springs that cause the clutch to slip.
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Staying in during this pandemic, has seen me become immersed in the hitherto mysteries of briar pipe making, cobbling, fine cabinet making, basket weaving, pottery and now machine tool engineering. It may not have been your prime objective Keith, but you and your fellow artisans are helping keep me sane. Thanks for posting.
Still always amazes me the age of such equipment and the intricate design and engineering that went into such things. And we also need to remember that some of those machines were designed and built way before Computer Aided Design capabilities were readily available. Thumbs Up!
enjoyed...disassembled, repaired, reassembled within a cup of my morning coffee!! super video as always
Always a good day when I get a new Keith Rucker video! Thanks for keeping the videos coming during these crazy times, Keith
Hehe no need to find words, mate. Your grin shouted how pleased you were!
Ive been binge watching all your vids..
Good old fashioned machine shop..
Machine skills are a dying art.. I hope theres younger guys following your engineering footsteps...
One comment, When re-assembling be sure the mating surface between the "feed and rapid traverse take-off bracket" casting (where the rapid traverse slip clutch you worked on is located) and the main casting has a good clean contact and air tight seal. The oil pump for the main gear case is part of this casting and if you have an air leek in the suction side it will not pull oil up from the sump properly!. I learned this the hard way with my 1943 K&T 2HL when I rebuilt it in 1974. (I paid $0.06/pound as scrap for the mill) The 2HL is still a valued part of my shop and great for production jobs. I have a couple manuals for my K&T 2HL that I had uploaded to add to the collection at VintageMachinery.org.
Thanks Keith...and thanks for the library of manuals for these older machines.
Keith, at the 17:30 mark...
When I was flying (Navy) I spent a lot of time on the hanger deck with my old salty dog crew chief. He taught me when working on things like that retaining ring to put a plastic sandwich bag over the gear. You can see through it, you can work through it... and when it goes "sproing", it stays where you need it to be.
The actual fix is pretty quick...gaining access is what eats up the time and cost. Great video.
What a Rube Goldberg design. All I can say is that the guys who designed teletype machines and these K&T mills must have had some really good drugs back in the day.. Great video Keith an great repair. I'm really impressed you managed to diagnose the problem and even more impressed you got all back together without any left over parts.
That's what you can do on Jack Daniels and Lucky Strikes.
Have you looked closely at a manual typewriter? Or watched a Linotype machine making type slugs?
@@royreynolds108 Yes YES! All amazing machines......and incredibly gifted designers
@@royreynolds108 For sure. I wrote my PhD thesis on a manual typewriter. I've even fixed them and I was always amazed at how they were made. Pipe organs are also really amazing.
I hope he put the oil back in it !
Nice job Keith.
Have a blessed week and stay safe!
My dad was a maintenance man for SK tool for many years back in the 60's and 70's he spoke of working on Kearny & Trecker mills all the time.
I think you need to pat on the back for being able to remember where all the parts go (David)
I am more fascinated by the idea that someone came up with the idea to design such a piece of machinery. The complexity amazes me. .designed before computer aided help.. Awesome. !
You know you need a real quiet shop to remove snap rings in. That way you can hear where they land when they come flying off... Enjoyed the project!!!
That was alot of work and I can see why it was a while before you dug into this. Nice job! Since we are on this social distance thing it was nice to see in your face the excitement and happiness. Keep up the great videos and stay healthy during this Covid -19 isolation.
Thanks Keith , very interesting , you're a brave soul
I only saw the first video earlier today when you last took the clutch apart. The new springs you put in were open coil ends, I'm pretty sure that they should have been closed end and ground, particularly where they are against the pressure plate. Hopefull these new ones will work OK. I was also going to say based on what I saw of the first video that you should have tried Lee Spring. I use them in the UK when I get stuck. I just paid £23.00 for a spring smaller than the one in a ball point pen and very light, but my door bell now goes Ding - Dong instead of Dong - Dong! Well worth over £20.00.
I love these videos. I've never even been in the same room as a milling machine like this but it's so cool!
Keith I do not envy you--you worked pretty hard for that result- I am getting too old and get too frustrated when I cannot do what I used to do all the time..I have reached a stage in my life that the older I get the better I used to be..LOL ..But I still love good machinery...E
I remember your first attempt at a repair and how disappointed you were after all your hard work that the traverse still slipped. You must be ecstatic having the second attempt succeed.
Great job Keith. Great Explanation. Thank you for sharing. Great video.
My uncle called the e clips, c clips Jesus clips. Because when the came off and flew away, you say, jeez, where’d it go!
Whole lot of design engineering went into that machine. Nice repair. Thanks for making the video.
That was cool- I do remember watching you tear it open before. Seriously; congrats.( I know the feeling of success).
* Also know that sickening, sinking feeling of " OMG I have to take this dang thing back apart again? !" Good job and pretty good at filming and editing. A Scientist I know also still enjoys working with his hands AND is also good at it.
Seems like a remarkable coincidence that most all of you all in the RUclips Machinist/Craftsmanship Community are really great people. Kudos.
Started my machining career on these machines back in the seventies. Never had the chance to see one apart. These machines were built to be serviced. Thanks for sharing. Hope you remembered to put the oil back in!
Looks like a 2h plain.. I have the same machine made in 1943...I have a std hi speed universal head and a Bridgeport M head for mine....As usual, when I got the std hi speed head, the drive gear was missing so I cut a new one on my 2hl universal....Cheers! Mike in Louisiana.......
Epic inside the K & T clutch pack! A serious win!
THIS is why I love this channel! Fascinating how complex it is. Great work!
Outstanding job 👍
Nice feeling when something like that is accomplished, solving a long-standing problem.
Nice video.
Thanks,
John
Thanks Keith, It is so very helpful, that you give us all the details of your work, like the source of the springs and the part #, many of the other guys seem to forget that we watch to get information and help. Thanks again , much appreciated
A little trick. Belts will go on and off easier from the larger pulley. These two didn't look too bad to do though off the smaller one.
I appreciate so much your videos and your work and the feeling of relaxation that comes from you. Especially these days. God bless you and your family!
always a happy time when plan A works out.
educational as always Keith
Good Friday morning Mr. Rucker.
Great job Keith, Don't know if anyone else noticed but you managed to get that back together much faster than it came apart. It's usually the other way around for myself.
Hi Keith, once again a job done with a master's hand, we here in Belgium are confined we tinker a little and the time becomes long, fortunately you made beautiful videos with Adam to distract us. Thank you again and see you soon
High K-factor compression springs with closed and grounds ends are never cheap to begin with. $6 each actually does not sound outrageous to me; they are not a "standard" off the shelf part. They are very likely made specifically for that application and its a niche application. So yeah, not bad!! Thanks Keith, glad to see the K&T back to where it needs to be.
Thanks Kieth.........good vid!!!!
Very cool mechanism
Elliot working hard! Nice to have it working properly finally I am sure.
Well done Sir!
Good to see...I used to run one like this for Bucyrus erie a few years back...good memories keep em comin..!
Good job as always Keith, hope you stay safe and well in this time of Coronavirus. Regards Sarah
It amazing to me someone could sit down and design a machine like this and figure out everything that is needed and then build it.
Wasn't a one man show
Thousands of minds over 100 years
Each person takes what is an old design and makes small changes to make the machine better
@@fowletm1992 my thoughts exactly. An army of men using slide rules and math, another actually building machines. Just for the current (at the time) version.
Once you fixed a bvunch of stuff it's all very similar .. that BIG clutch he took off first (on thre big belt pulley) is the basic desing for dozens of machine tools for example.
That is really nice Keith congratulations..E
After watching this, I am now certain that YOU are a genius. Enjoyed this. Thanks Keith.
Hi Keith I am looking forward to the full rebuild!
Hi Keith thanks again for the advice on my Kent kgs 250 surface grinder just ordered 2 manual Oilers .
Great Video, Enjoyed very much !
Very nice video however that rapid assembly should have some Benny Hill music with it, LoL. Thanks for sharing. :o)
Open another tab with the Benny Hill theme, i did. It was fantastic. :))
Well done 🇬🇧
I use my arbor press, albeit much smaller than yours, to press clutch packs. I have a non-stretching rope anchored to the base of the press stan and a tight loop on the handle. When I manually press the clutch pack I slide the rope loop out on the handle till it is tight enough to hold the handle in position so I can get the snap rings in. Old school but it works. I have seen it done with a light chain and an L-bracket with a hole that fits the press arm. Set it and when the arm tries to bo back to rest the L-bracket is self pinched onto the press arm. Works for me with just a rope.
Great piece of surgery, Keith, Interesting to see the innards of these old machines - Happy good Friday!
WoW Keith, I look forward to every Friday to see your GREAT video. Again, you are the best!
Cute dog he is very comfortable
NICE JOB I'M GLAD IT WORKED OUT THIS TIME ! ALWAYS IN JOY SEEING YOU WORK ON FIXING MACHINES YOU SHOW EVERYTHING NICE GOOD VIDEOS !
Ya buddy ! I love a great fixit vid share .. ENJOYED !! Thanks Keith ..
Keith, Awesome job/repair to your Kearney great video liked watching the tear down and enjoyable watching it being rebuilt, thanks for sharing your knowledge & video.!.!.!.
never saw you put oil in on time lapse footage, hope you remembered keith.
alistair foster came here to say the same thing!
18 hole this is the round I like. I could get it apart, but maybe not back together. love the show thanks
Thanks Keith. I remember the problem from last time. Good luck.
Great job Keith, you did not turn this into several vids as some others are like to do!
Had a similar problem with a machine. Belleville washers, 192 in total required. Local parts are not right, so phoned the UK supplier of the original ones, and ordered them, and they have a MOQ of 500, so got that. 96 washers per time to replace, so they went into packs of 96, all ready to simply put in place for next time I would have to change them. As they typically last 5 years in service before losing tension ( they have a lot of force applied, and nothing you can do about it, as they are cam driven, and the cam follower is a really tough bearing) they are fine, with at least 2 spare sets for use.
THANK YOU...for sharing. Watched and very much enjoyed.
That was fun.
springs from a tap matick tapping head work just fine. bin there done that.
My father was a tool maker now I’m getting close to retirement and have the desire to learn so I started my own channel and I’m learning from watching you ,Steve Summers,A-bomb ,Blondie hacks , b block, and many more.I do appreciate y’all being there please keep yourself healthy . Keep providing the great content. Love,Kimber Zelik (LOVE>fear) P.S. I’m like in my second week of machinist pre-School. YOU-TUBE channel ( kimber Zelik )
Good work as usual. That dark clutch recess area was the perfect place to use a lighted rattle wrench. When reassembling it, I would need to play the video backwards as an aid to know where everything should go.
Heck $6 per spring, that is cheaper than a roll of toilet paper! :-)
Learning as usual. Thank you and stay safe.
Gday Keith, it’s a fair size job to get into the clutch,in saying that it’s a heavily built machine, definitely made to last that’s for sure, great to see your fit and well, please stay safe, Cheers Matty
When you started taking the clutch pack apart with the vise, I thought of a device like you made to put it back together and use a press.
Great content
The tool you made to compress the springs and install the snap ring is very similar to what's used when rebuilding automatic transmissions. Unlike this one, those actually have multiple friction and steel plates.
Seems to be working better. I hope that repair holds up given the spring cost. Now please go replace the missing cap screw from the knee into the gear box. And give us an update on whether the Z axis rapid works now with the new springs.
Quite a piece of engineering.
Thank you...Sir...!
Love the old machine design that would have spanned the era of motors and belt drives. I have managed to bodge up a limiter clutch like that in the past by using smaller balls. I swapped out the 1/4" balls for 6mm and the clutch worked like new. I didn't know what the breakaway torque was but it never took out the shear pins.
Somebody did that when he pulled the clutch apart the first time (8mm balls instead of 5/16", but only in some locations). He installed new 5/16" balls at that time.
@@ratdude747 The difference between 8mm and 5/16 isn't enough to make a difference in that joint as the difference is only a couple of thou. 1/4 and 6mm is 0.013" and it's smaller so it works. Mixing 8mm and 5/16 being close but not the same will actually make it easier to break away because it will only be riding on the 8mm balls.
Keith, The balls in the over ride clutch are just there as noise makers to let you know the friction clutch is slipping and you may have hit something during the rapid. So the wear in the back plate is no problem.
Chuck, Please look up ball-detent clutch and you will see that the balls being held in the pockets by the spring force is the clutch mechanism. When the pockets are worn the springs do not compress as far for the balls to "skip" pockets, which results in the clutch slipping at a lower torque.
"This is just a temporary measure. I'll fix it later."
Four years later:
Four years is kind of "later"! I have projects that have hit double figure "later".
Nice repair, but I would suggest putting oil back in it
Hey Keith - Those machines need lots of TLC. Enjoyed the video.
Give Steve Summers a ring... he has the same mill and may be interested in the spring set.
But what a price for those springs, amazing.
oh great video
Hey Keith, is it possible that the problem is not the torque limiter but something binding somewhere that is engaging the torque limiter? You're also going to get to a point where you are going to have to do something about that plate on the other side. It's hard to tell from the video, but how severely rounded are those edges and how deep is the groove?
I agree with this comment! The function of that "clutch" is to limit torque to the rapid traverse so if something overloads it doesn't break the machine. I would propose that your traverse is dirty or dry and the torque limiter is simply doing its job. This would also explain why you made some improvement a few years ago, you simply increased the limit of the torque limiter, but didn't solve the root issue.
Are parts still available for the old K&T? The worn grooves in the torque limiter still worry me. The added spring length may be suitable as a permanent repair, but I like to go OEM when possible instead of guessing. That is a lot of spring cost if you guessed wrong.
I cut my machine repair teeth on Abom's model K&T. That is so many years ago that I can't recall the model number or many of the details. That was the only K&T our shop owned and the only one that I ever serviced. I had no reason to keep up with K&T and parts availability. K&T used some very complex mechanical design on your machine that was upgraded to very complex hydraulic and mechanical design on Abom's machine. I took great pleasure in isolating trouble cause when opening the bowels of our K&T. Disassembly required disconnecting mechanical or hydraulic interfaces. Tracing power transfer when disassembled wasn't always simple. You went through a lot of work to hope you guessed correctly plus a lot of spring cost. Doing this in a production environment meant additional production downtime when the repairman guessed wrong. I quickly learned to read assembly drawings so I had my diagnosis well concluded before I grabbed a wrench. I also tried to have correctly ordered the parts from that diagnosis prior to teardown and have them on site. These kinds of problems present themselves in gradual function decline. Diagnosing what is developing before failure becomes increasingly advantageous in the production environment. Sudden component failure doesn't allow for proactive action.
Lee Spring has been a source for decades. I kept nearly full stocked Lee Spring engineers test kits in both compression and extension coil spring sizes. The kits come packed with 2 springs per spring size. I ordered mine from McMaster Carr. The wide selection of springs in the kits were a ready source for emergency and permanent repairs. The kit gives you test parts and confirms part numbers. The test kit is a handy investment. I inherited somewhat already picked over kits when I landed my job, and I think that I only started over with new test kits once in 34 years. I may have occasionally restocked popular sizes. I had the advantage that my company supported my desire to maintain machinery to OEM specification. This allowed me to order OEM parts with assurance that the parts were correct. This allowed more reliability to order parts correctly prior to disassembly.
Documentation is invaluable when employing the described repair approach. Knowing the component condition and repair action taken previously and any non OEM alteration is critical. We kept detailed repair records on every diagnosis and repair including parts used, repairman, cost, vendor and delivery issues. When I retired we had over 30 years of every repair documented and since 1994 these records were maintained electronically. With powerful search engines these old repairs could be called up in moments. We routinely updated old repair documentation when we discovered that records were incomplete or included errors. I would eventually have low skilled technicians performing high tech diagnosis and repair due to the reliance on our documentation. The record keeping applied universally to all technologies. We employed the method for mechanical, electrical, digital, programming, hydraulic, etc. with equal results.
In my retirement, my wrenching hours are greatly reduced, but I am still active in my shop.
Thinking more on this topic...
Keith showed worn shortened coil springs. I was told early in my training that compression coil springs LENGTHEN as they weaken. I have replaced far more shortened compression coil springs than lengthened springs. Was I told a falicy or do springs relax lengthened early in their spring failure life before losing springiness to return to full length?
Another opportunity to rant...
As a technician I value assembly drawings vastly over isometric or exploded view drawings. Assembly drawings confirm vastly more useful information. In the assembly drawing you can validate which shoulder is load bearing, fit alignment and clearance. Internal fluid porting can be confirmed. Direction of thrust bearing races are obvious. Which face of O ring provides sealing force, which part face carries motion load and stroke length, etc. Parts that are directional often lose their orientation when on the repair bench. Assembly drawings eliminate guessing wrong during reassembly. I find keeping small parts, hardware and subassemblies in separate boxes during disassembly eliminates reassembly confusion. Lista cabinet plastic drawer organizer boxes are ideal for uniform and reusable small parts organization. AKRO bins are a good option too, but the open slanted end is sometimes undesirable.
Phase marking tape comes in many colors and is a reassembly confirmation trick that I like to use. Colored zip ties are permanent and are ideal for marking hose ends to fittings. The cell phone camera became super valuable to document complex assemblies before disassembly... Think drum brake shoes component orientation or serpentine belt path. That photo can be a real timesaver.
One of Keith's components had threaded pusher bolt holes to aid in disassembly. The knee drive power transfer gearbox did not. Drilling and tapping pusher bolt holes while disassembled is a prudent improvement. Often you can use assembly hardware for the pusher bolts. Size any added pusher threaded holes to match assembly hardware. Fully threaded SHCS are a handy repair tool kit item to collect. Long set screws are an alternative, but SHCS allow use of a larger wrench. I like McMaster Carr as a supply source. They will sell one piece for a premium, but it saves investing in box lot sizes when not required. They stock more variety than any supplier that I am aware of. Same day shipment and next day delivery for standard UPS orders to ST Louis. Pretty impressive!
Use a copy machine to make shop use drawings when at the machine. This keeps the original clean.
At the time he redid the clutch the first time, the ball plate/hubs were available... for $800 a hit. They know what they have, as one would say. I think he mentioned paying about $1000 for the mill, so such expense wasn't warranted (he also mentioned wanting to find a bigger horizontal mill, like a Cincinnati).
Can the detent ring be re-created?
@@elmarqo_3448 Yes, the tricky part is the steel and the heat treating process is very specific for that type of application so you would need to get the steel grade, the hardness and the temper and then work on recreating the part. Not impossible but also not simple.
@@paulhunt598 You were fortunate to work for a company to have that type of mentality. Most of the places where I worked ran until it broke then fixed it. One place had a label machine that had been made in Germany, something happened and to keep the bearings in the bearing races were welded to the shafts. They got POed when I blew out the air compressor inlet filters to clean them as a preventative maintenance operation.
Wow what a vid good stuff man your really skilled👌👌
I would check to see if the shaft is stopping turning when you raise the knee in rapid transverse. I suspect from the way the clutch is made its a gear slipping somewhere else in the drive. I have seen other machinist make a socket to fit the raise adjustment and run it up with a drill or impact wrench.
Nice video, my prefered type of video when you get to se the inner workings of things that are not 100% and then the fix. One thing is for sure your not afraid to get your hands dirty like some. Good to se you solved the problem even if it did take 10 years. 😉
That K&T could definitely use a lick of paint.
Glad for you, seeing that damn machine finally yeild to the forces of light and truth. I felt bad for you last time, when it still skipped even after all that exploration through those unknown dark paths and cliffs, full of springy things ready to jump out at'cha and little balls scampering for hiding places. I marveled at your patience and sledge-hammer forbearance back then. More than I could have mustered. So Yay and goodonya. It's Rucker, 1; Kearny, O... for now.
quite the job! Thanks for sharing
The slipper clutch at 19:00 works almost exactly like the clutch on a screw gun.
Did you check to see if the stiffer and longer springs would compress enough to allow the balls to jump to the next hole.
I assume the torque limiter might
come into play when the table reaches the end of it's travel.
If it binds up something might break
The engineering is a marval in itself; in this old machine. When was it built. I'm thinking in the 40"s...
Shoemaker’s child finally gets shoes. Thanks for the video.
nice video
Really interesting video, well presented as always. Regards from Stoke Golding in the UK