Ultimately this is a great step and further supports your channel as your journey and we are are lucky enough to be able to learn from your experiences.
Am with you on this - I've moved away from MAF for much of the same reasons. I still use it on my base runs, but like to mix it up as well. Whilst running fast increases the risks of injury etc, it just feels good to push your body every so often! ps. thanks for the subscription - you has the honour of being the one and only! 😀 I might have to actually post a new video after 11 years now that I have an audience!!
Building muscular strength back up is my current goal. That, and - believe it or not -- working on my breathing, especially when NOT trying to run, but rather, when I am sleeping. I found out my CO2 level is an issue, and my lung capacity is an issue. Yes, I'm an old lady (?) but even with this factor, I think I can get better and stronger, and enjoy running more. All the "methods" are really just tools to be applied to get our goals met! Thanks a lot Dave, for all your content lately!!
Very interesting and refreshing take Dave. I'd come to a similar conclusion, even though I've only been following MAF method since Jan 1st. I'll still do MAF, but have been mixing it up with intervals and tempo runs for the last 2 weeks. I had intended to do a MAF test today, as I still see this as a way to benchmark my progress, but it was 48C in the sun and my HR was over MAF so quickly I changed my plan and did a 5K tempo run. My first 10K race is next Saturday, I hope the temperature cools down a little this week!
I'm proud of you Dave. We're the same age and I run in large part for mental health benefits, but I have a goal of one day having8-9 minute miles being my Base Pace. I stated MAF when I started running with treadmill running which allowed 13-15 minutes miles. That kind of shuffle was fine for calorie burn, feeling mental health benefits but the difference between 13 minute miles and 8 minute miles are enormous. Almost like 2 different activities. Lots of trails for Easy running are a blast, the centerpiece, but I want to get faster too so one day I can bounce along at a running stride and enjoy. Peace
Been doing MAF since 2003. MAF isn’t all about low intensity, and many don’t realize this. Doing higher intensities is totally allowed, but as you age you need to be careful. You go through ups and downs over the years but it has served me well and has kept me going. You have to stay consistent and roll with the ebbs and flows. I still got big plans at almost 55 so I’m sticking with it 😎
And don’t get me wrong. I don’t believe that MAF is the be all end all of training. There are many ways to train and I think that if one finds their happy place in training that works for them, that’s all that matters. I think it’s important to keep the basic principles in mind e.g. train mostly easy aerobic, eat whole foods, manage stress, sleep well. But you need to find your WHY that keeps you going day to day and I think that “mixing it up” and using your brain to determine how you FEEL is the most important. Too many people misinterpret MAF as meaning “always slow” and “no weight lifting” and that is completely wrong. One day I may write a book about it lol…..
It's been a couple of years since a read his book, but I do remember that in that book there were blocks of intervals when the easy running does not work anymore. I'd say that it wasnt the purpouse at all to run easy all the time
@@djc0108no plans. Every day I do a workout based on how I feel and what I want to do. If I have a big goal, I go a little longer every day and take stepback weeks. I also include some short hard efforts here and there but I'm 55 so not too many.
You're not quitting - just taking a different approach. I have never supported the MM, so was delighted to see this. I am 63 and run with lots of variation and the result is that I consistently make time qualifiers in races, Iincluding BQs. Yesterday, I did a 10 mile trail run (1700 foot vertical) and today I ran a 5K race (6:40 pace) this morning. I feel great! Agree that you should be mixing things up!
I agree Dave. I think MAF works well when you are starting out or returning to running after a break. But, once you can run relatively comfortably for (I dunno, it's different for everyone) let's say 45-60 minutes, then I think always running slow/easy is as bad as always running hard! 🇨🇦🇨🇦😃😃 Variety is key and as you say add some faster runs, strides, intervals etc. Sometimes just entering a race or event is all you need. (October Toronto half or full marathon??)
Thank you for being humble enough to share this! One thing I've learned from watching these videos is how much of a journey it is. We experiment, try something and then re-adjust as needed and keep going. Thank you for the encouragement.
what's up dave! yeah I sort of moved away from MAF method last year. I still run about 90/10 polarized but by feel. I've been injured so often the last 2 years that I kind of know now when to dial it back down. I have no problem on walking on some easy runs. I've also added a lot more strength training to strengthen by core and guard against injury. I find that to get any positive adaptation, I need to run hard. So these days I run hard when I feel good, I run slow when I don't. Works out to about 1 hard session every 5 days or so (a lot less volume, more strength now). Also the quality of my fuel matters quite a bit - day after pizza dinner and i feel like a gasoline car running on diesel. Sleep is also a big factor for me. Either way, every day that you can get out to enjoy a beautiful sport like running is a good day :). cheers man, hope you find your good place!
I too find this unfortunately true. I read the MAF books and followed it, nutrition, zero-drop shoes and all, for 2 years. I didnt get better, I got slower and injured. Yes my triglycerides went so low that sensor couldnt detect, HDL went way high, etc etc. After two years on MAF, it took me another year to re-build my above MAF speed (I used Jack Daniel’s method). My frustration with MAF was that because the strides became so narrow (jog) and no variety in the strides and I got insertional achilles tendinosis despite running relatively same mileage/week before with closer to what 80/20 would recommend. Over the years, my take is that YES MAF works, but if we go by the book, a lot of the success stories come from triathletes who do HUGE training volumes and always pushing and that they are generally anatomically gifted. Other success stories come from high volume professional runners/athletes. We cant just extend these that “oh it is good for pros, must be good for time limited everyday athletes.” Everyone is different, try different things, seek coach’s help etc. Personally I find high drop shoes are better for me and 80/20 is the best for me to build fitness.
@@peterlee208 sorry to hear that. My Achilles still bothers me from time to time, which I injured it back in 2017. Hope you got yours sorted out for good.
As you get older, you get slower, more injury prone, and gain weight a lot easier. You can't eat like you used to (sorry). Runners don't realize this until it actually happens to them. When I was in my 50s I went through a "phase" where I couldn't figure out why I wasn't getting any better or faster, despite doing more mileage and training better. I got injured a couple of times and gained weight. It was a really frustrating time. At some point you need to make peace with yourself getting older and slower. I'm almost 65 now, and I run 3-4 days a week, walk or hike 2-3 days, and always take at least 1 day off a week. You should always take a day or two off or you are asking for an injury or burn-out (sorry). The Maffetone Method works well to build up a base (if you are between ages 35-55). Otherwise it's too fast or too slow. I would look at 80/20 running or the Galloway run/walk methods to run better, but don't expect any major new PRs. Learn to enjoy the journey Dave, and maybe get away from all that technical data and training statistics. Good luck! 🙂
Well, at 61 I'll say I'm very similar to what I was doing at 51. But, without the niggling injuries, partly because I'm no longer trying to train on top of a tiring day job. Also, if you can include more cross training (for me that is now triathlon) and be careful with intensity I'll be more optimistic and say it's not a given that ageing brings a slower run pace and more injuries 😃😃
That is probably true, and for me the ageing process will have been going on in the background, but I have found I have improved out of all recognition in the last decade. I'm now mid-sixties, I'm a lot lighter, achieving much faster times and a lot less injury prone than I was back then. That said, I had a lot of improvement to make. And retirement does help. It helps a lot.
Interesting look at things. At 56 I smashed my half marathon pb by 17 mins. So you can train to get faster at an older age. When you set up a good training program injury prevention is part of it. I know people who skip warming up and cooling down. They also don't stretch or workout. Rest and recovery is another thing. Those are key to injury prevention. Diets should change much if you are injured also. Training is more than just running slow it is a combination of everything. Planning on more pb times this year. I have never used the maf method.
@@themechanic4409 It really depends on how long you've been running and how old you were when you first started. Runners who start when they are older can probably get better. But if you started in your 20s or 30s, it's doubtful you will improve on those times. You can improve in longer distances (like ultras) however mostly because of the mental aspect they require.
This guy makes me feel better about my life. I've been having a really hard time after my last competition. Took some time off to recover, and it just hasn't been the same.
Thanks Nathan, I hope you find rest and recover then start up again. Sometimes looking back can hurt a lot. Today is a new day and I do hope you get back to what feels right to you. Thanks to taking the time to leave a comment :)
Good video Dave. I have been trying to mix in a little weight lifting in. Wow am loving the dead lift (low weight). Am not looking to get jacked just build more all around strength and good posture
Dude i was so ready to jump down your throat in disagreement but you are pretty much spot on here. MAF training is great for building your base, but once you have this sussed you are right it is so easy to get bored. 80/20 split is my new plan, 80% zone 2 and 20% tempo/threshold/intervals. You do need a fairly high weekly mileage to get this split right though!
Just getting back to running after a 6 week break due to injury and work. Really impressed with how much my base held up from the months of MAF training! Thanks for the guidance there 😉I started a Garmin coach plan for the 10k I have coming up on July 4th. 2 weeks in and the variety has been nice! I set a PB for the mile, my resting HR almost immediately dropped back down to the 51-52 range and I am feeling better than ever! The most odd part to me was that I dreaded the idea of getting back after it. The thought of a run, even slow, was repulsive almost. I started by forcing myself to run very very slow. I walk at a 15 min/mile pace so I would jog at 12 min/mile. 2-3 runs in and my body felt better, my mind was clear and I was excited to run again. IDK if it was shame or guilt or just the devil (lol) but something was keeping me back! Thank you for the motivation and entertainment. It always helps pull me into a positive direction when I fall off a bit! I think 6 weeks was too much, but every qtr or 2 I could see myself taking a week to 10 days off. Maybe if you, for whatever reason, take a week off I would love to know how you respond once you start back.
I really thought the title was click bait! 😂 I used MAF for 3 solid months, built a base, but lost my speed, form, and joy of running. Now I'm mixing it up, with 1 MAF run and 2-3 RPE runs with hills and speed, and loving running and improving again. I'm looking forward to seeing this new journey of yours!
Thanks Kelly. It's been a crazy few years of using the Maffetone Method. I've seen great results during that time but I've hit a plateau and I really needed a change as I love running the trails and some faster runs I know will spark my enjoyment again.
MAF doesn't say you should not do fast runs. In fact, incorporating some fast workouts is important. Neither it say you should run the same route all the time or avoid trails. MAF is not unique or some magic bullet. Most good training programs will have 80% of runs slow and easy. MAF helps massively building a very good base and developing arobic fitness. Most importantly, it helps prevent most injuries caused by people pushing themselves all the time and running too fast.
I started to use the 80 / 20 and was influenced by the MAF process as well. As an over 50 runner, I felt the heart rates were way too low. I do think it has its place though and I definitely work to stay in Zone 2 for my easy days. If I drift into zone 3 a little, I am okay with it. I used to get worked up over it and it was sucking the joy out of simply running. For me, I don't think I got magically faster by running a lot of Zone 2 mileage. It has allowed me to safely increase my mileage, and I have way more energy / strength for the harder days. So it has its place. But you definitely have to do the harder sessions to get faster, at least in my opinion. If all you do is run Zone 1 / 2 its hard to expect that you would have the physical and mental strength to hold onto Zone 4 / 5 for a 5K.
I've come to think we can over technologize running. MAF isn't the only guilty method. But it's one. Running by feel and listening to our bodies is the key. MAF can be a pedagogical tool to get there but isn't needed or good one you're heading what your body tells you. . Good luck with your training.
I have been using the Polarized Method for cycling. 80% of my rides are at 75% of my lactate threshold while 20% are at 95-120% of lactate threshold. I LOVE IT! Always willing to train and fitness is higher than ever. This method can be applied to running.
I agree with you. I think MAF is great for a) rebuilding after illness or injury (I did that after surgery) and b) keeping you honest on your easy days but you need some speed development, too. Especially as you get older, doing sprints or VO2 max intervals of 3-5 min in length are vital to keep your fast twitch fibres going. I'm still going with MAF HR for my easy days but I've introduced sprints or VO2 max intervals each weeks plus a threshold session. I'm now doing 90/10 or 80/20 in competitive season. I also do resistance training to keep my muscular strength.
Great video. I totally agree. Basically, doing aerobic easy, steady or steady runs has been the foundation of most running methods since the 50s. No matter if you do 80/20 or some Norwegian treshold Ingebrigtsen style, or whatever: As long as you have lots of aerobic mileage between quality sessions you'll be allright. Maffetone pretends they have evidence it works better than other methods, but then again a runner following either of other methods have as good results, if taking easy mileage seriously. People really dont understand how much easy mileage a Kipchoge or Ingebrigtsen does. Thats the real problem. People dont understand how important aerobic base or mileage is. When Kipchoge runs some runs at 5:00/km when marathon pace is 2:50/km, with my 5:40 marathon pace, then I'd better run at 6:50 (easy) or 7:45 (recovery) myself. Its very important to have variation and fun in training. Great video. I have ADHD myself. Fully understand. Now I run easy, steady, steady, marathon pace, 10 k pace, 5 k pace, longruns, intervals, short runs, treshold, VO2max. As long as you do aerobic base you can do many type of pace some times a week. I do think for most people 80/20 is a great method.
You didn’t ask me for advice and if you want to ignore it, I’m of course totally fine with it. Take a step back in running and follow an easy and light maintenance schedule. At the same time apply a more holistic approach to your training and focus more on other aspects. Start with a 3 months block of intermittent fasting and focus on diet, sleep, recovery and meditation. Cut alcohol to zero for those 3 months. I’m sure if you stick with that for 3 months, your next MAF training block will be amazing.
Any training that is too rigid will in the end not work. The first rule of running well is enjoyment! If you don't enjoy what you're doing you will inevitably stop running. The second rule is to mix it up - do your long slow runs, but mix them up with some higher intensity, some race pace and even good solid hikes. If you enjoy it, and want to get any running results, then get a coach who will help you to achieve your objectives. Mensa Cosa Coaching can help....
The great Arthur Lydiard - one of the pioneers of the "run slow to run fast" approach, and probably the greatest running coach of the 20th century would agree with you. He always maintained that you should do a block of aerobic base training for no longer than 12 weeks, otherwise you'd go nuts. And even during the 12 week block, he'd have is runners work some strides or fartlek components into some sessions, just to remind them of what leg turnover feels like. Ultimately, unless you're a professional, running needs to be enjoyable and interesting, otherwise you'll stop doing it.
my hunch is that after all those aerobic miles, your lactate threshold shifted. i followed MAF for some years (coincidently, my zone 2), it worked very well, then it stagnated. did some lactate threshold test (garmin), to my surprise, my lactate threshold hr is higher than before, thus my zone 2 is higher than my MAF hr. using my new zone 2 based on LTHR zone, & then things started moving again.. now i re-test my lactate threshold every 1-2 month, to make sure that my zones are set correctly each month. it would be much more accurate if u can invest in some lactate meter, 2mmol is the upper range for zone 2. podcast by Peter Attia & Inigo San Millan is very very informative, can check it out
Dave, I needed this video. My first (and probably) last dog recently passed away. 😭😭😭 I've been really depressed and had fallen out of love with running. However, I went out the other day and ran a tempo run. It felt good and I was happy for the first time since her passing. However, I felt guilty. Like I was cheating on the Maffatone method. But right now, I need to incorporate faster running into my schedule. I'm going to try 80/20 for awhile and see how that goes.
Ask yourself what you’re trying to optimize for. If you’re trying to shave every last second off your race times, then yeah hire a coach and do some variation of 80/20. If you’re optimizing for overall enjoyment and fulfillment from your hobby, then experiment and find a routine that keeps you excited to get out the door and keeps you healthy. I’m 40, usually run 5 times a week and 3 or 4 of those will be at threshold. It probably doesn’t optimize my race times, but it works ok and I love it…if I wanted to spend 8 hours a week in Zone 2 I’d play golf
To keep things easy (on the head) I switched to a 3 HR zone model. Sub LT1, Sub LT2, and LT2+. With the idea that sub LT1 is Fat burning mode (primarily) designed to train your body to burn fats over glycogen. Sub LT2 people often call this tempo, idea here is to work on form and push LT2 up from below, add muscular endurance. LT2+ is threshold, I spend very little time here per week. Idea here is to drag LT2 up from above, run longer at threshold. As a 50yr (in a few weeks), I went from running 5 days a week with way too much intensity, to 7days a week with 110km weeks, where I had 3 easy days (Sub LT1) , 2 aerobic runs with strides (low Sub LT2 and spikes during strides, but not to LT2), 1 workout session (HR out the window all Power driven), and 1 long run. The strides REALLY helped improve form without adding intensity to my weekly totals, and as a result we slowly extended the strides. I went 70 days running in a row without needing take a rest day...till I caught covid for the first time....ugh. Now I had to get a coach to make me train this way, and keep me honest, and it was worth every penny. 6 days out from my marathon and looking to PB by 30+ mins. As mentioned repeatedly here, MAF can work great as a starting point for people, but eventually...it runs it's course and you need to provide your body varied stimulus to continue progressing.
We are all diffrent. Im in my 50s and only been running for 3 years. I run 80% slow 20% fast. Ive been doing this for 18 months and ive pb on my half marathons 10k and 5k but the best things is im not getting any injuries anymore so im consistent and thats the key for me...
You’re actually not alone with a long list of people who have either wanted to quit MAF or who have quit MAF. When I’ve done research on it, boredom and lack of improvement after a certain point seem to be the two biggest complaints about the MAF method. I’d say go for the 80/20 method since you have that aerobic base down. It’ll give you that variety you’ve been looking for. Also, I’d look into cross training as well as way to mix things up and not be constantly running at the same distance and pace all the time.
I tried the Maffetone method. The pace improvements were minimal and were offset by how much my form deteriorated to maintain a low heart rate. It was completely joyless. I’m trying to be responsible with speed work vs easy runs and trust how my body feels.
I don’t enjoy my runs if I follow some “structured” method/ plan. If I feel like running slower, I do; if I feel like intervals, i do; etc. I never want to be in a position where I ‘have’ to something because someone said so. If I plan on doing a some type of race then, maybe, I follow some plan… but very loosely. Your mileage should dictate whether you can run that distance or not. I run for fun, not to break any time or mileage or any arbitrary set number. If it happens, then I take it as a bonus.
oh boy i thought i would not live long enough to see this video, i am really happy for you, to leave the prison after such a long time.....run free....enjoy.....be happy ( my last comment is years ago under my former nick name Thomas Fritz)
I mean it definitely has it's place. Like 80% of runs should be done following the MAF method (if you want to call it that), but the main idea is just to do it at an aerobic level as that's where you will gain most. For someone less fit or just starting out I can see why it would not work, because it would be very difficult to run in zone 2 whilst maintaining form with a low level of fitness. And on the other side, if you just run slow (MAF) 100% of the time you will become very good at running slow, and lose ability to run fast. You will also burn out if you do all running slow, or all running fast, for different reasons at each side of the spectrum but burn out regardless. It sounds pretty textbook but no matter what level you're at, if you have some degree of fitness and want to get faster, you need to be doing around 20% of running faster. Depending on your age/condition/injuries it doesn't mean you have to be doing high intensity intervals all the time, or 30min thresholds, but something that will challenge your speed endurance, leg speed etc. So I do 80% of my runs between 4:30-5:20:/km and then the remaining 20% at moderate- high intensity, which can be anywhere from 3:35/km to fast 200m intervals. TLDR if you switch up the runs, try some hill reps, fartleks, long runs with faster sections, tempos; your body adapts better and not only do you look forward to running more but you improve much quicker. You will also go back to your majority easy runs and start to see pace/heartrate gains that you just weren't getting before. And yeah I know everyone has different goals, some people just want to run, but it doesn't have to be super technical to be more fun, when you know the basics :) hope something helped
This video is titled wrong. You do understand that you aren't supposed to stay building a base forever. MAF works but if dedicated to always improving, then it is part of a training cycle.
I don't remember exactly where Maffetone sets zone 2 range, but mine is pretty low like his (60-75%). There's no reason to run like that every day in a training week for longer than about 12-16 weeks. You will have gotten all the mitochondrial and capillary density adaptations by then. If you are doing polarized training, then go to your lactate threshold and "speed" work. If you do it like me, then go to stamina phase (tempo, etc) before moving on to economy (lactate threshold and running economy), and then on to real speed training. Then go back to your base / endurance phase again. I don't even think Maffetone suggests you should do this endlessly. Basically, you will start to see dwindling improvements in your MAF tests as the weeks go on in that first phase. At a certain point, the marginal improvements you measure will not be justified with respect to the time and fatigue (stimulus to fatigue ratio is going to drop). The problem is that those early adaptations are largely not noticeable (more mitochondria and capillaries). You can only see them indirectly by noting improvements in your paces at the same aerobic heart rate. Once that dries up, then you need to move on to your next phase of training. That's my 2c, anyway. Plus, you will get bored if you don't stick with a periodized training system, which is what you experienced. Base training is fun after you have gone through all the phases and your body is kind of run down from the speed work and racing.
I totally get where you're coming from, and it's evident that you have a solid understanding of training principles and the Maffetone Method. It's true that sticking to a low heart rate zone for extended periods can lead to diminishing returns, and it's essential to incorporate different phases in your training to keep making progress. I've seen great results over the years however there does come a point where runners need some faster running. Periodization is key to preventing burnout and boredom. Moving through different phases like base, stamina, economy, and speed work allows us to target different aspects of our running performance and keep things fresh and exciting. The base training phase can indeed be enjoyable, especially when we've already gone through the entire cycle of training and our body needs that recovery and endurance focus. It's during this time that we can truly appreciate the benefits of the earlier adaptations and the groundwork we've laid. And you're spot on about the early adaptations being less noticeable. The improvements in mitochondrial and capillary density might not be immediately visible, but we see them in our improved paces at the same aerobic heart rate. It's like the foundation for further growth and progress. At some point, we have to recognize that we've squeezed all we can out of that particular phase, and it's time to move on to the next challenge. It's about finding that balance between pushing ourselves and allowing sufficient recovery to avoid overtraining. Your two cents are worth a lot, and it's always great to exchange knowledge and experiences with fellow runners. Remember, running is a journey, and each phase teaches us valuable lessons about ourselves and our capabilities. So, here's to embracing the process, staying adaptable, and continuing to chase those personal bests!
I always wanted to try MAF but had my doubts. It sounds very sound but I don't really like being restricted while running. I feel I improve the most when I let the running happen naturally
That's too bad. Yeah, motivation is key. I stuck at it and found myself running faster, but it takes time. Also, 80-20 split is OK. You don't have to stick at MAF HR for all runs. And if you are training for an event you can up the intensity, but do long runs at MAF HF.
Sounds stessful. Charts & graphs lol.? Sounds like someone training for the olympics. Im reletavly new to running.. but i simply do it for fun. Sounds like youre overthinking, and over complicating things. Running coach? Ffs.. im 48 years old, not a college athelete. Sounds exhausting. To keep running fun.. just run for fun.
Unfortunately, it took you a long time to realise how the professional train. Best method is to follow 80/20 formula they use. I'm 57 and my pace is not improving. I know the only way to improve is to add Hill repeats and interval training. It's painful, and I really have to be carful not to injure myself, but its the only way if I want to improve
Running slow, Will only make you slower. I tried running after the Maff method for a year or so. I don’t think I had enough weekly hours to benefit from it. I run daily from 5-12km. And the slow run only made me slower. I’m quite sure doing the same over and over will make us people lazy. The body or at least mine need a wake up call. So I skipped it, and try to push my self a bit now, and that seems to work. But that’s just me :)
Ultimately this is a great step and further supports your channel as your journey and we are are lucky enough to be able to learn from your experiences.
Am with you on this - I've moved away from MAF for much of the same reasons. I still use it on my base runs, but like to mix it up as well. Whilst running fast increases the risks of injury etc, it just feels good to push your body every so often! ps. thanks for the subscription - you has the honour of being the one and only! 😀 I might have to actually post a new video after 11 years now that I have an audience!!
Building muscular strength back up is my current goal. That, and - believe it or not -- working on my breathing, especially when NOT trying to run, but rather, when I am sleeping. I found out my CO2 level is an issue, and my lung capacity is an issue. Yes, I'm an old lady (?) but even with this factor, I think I can get better and stronger, and enjoy running more. All the "methods" are really just tools to be applied to get our goals met! Thanks a lot Dave, for all your content lately!!
Very interesting and refreshing take Dave. I'd come to a similar conclusion, even though I've only been following MAF method since Jan 1st. I'll still do MAF, but have been mixing it up with intervals and tempo runs for the last 2 weeks. I had intended to do a MAF test today, as I still see this as a way to benchmark my progress, but it was 48C in the sun and my HR was over MAF so quickly I changed my plan and did a 5K tempo run. My first 10K race is next Saturday, I hope the temperature cools down a little this week!
Maf has completely transformed my running. I’m faster and stronger than ever before. Works for some and not for others.
I'm proud of you Dave. We're the same age and I run in large part for mental health benefits, but I have a goal of one day having8-9 minute miles being my Base Pace. I stated MAF when I started running with treadmill running which allowed 13-15 minutes miles. That kind of shuffle was fine for calorie burn, feeling mental health benefits but the difference between 13 minute miles and 8 minute miles are enormous. Almost like 2 different activities. Lots of trails for Easy running are a blast, the centerpiece, but I want to get faster too so one day I can bounce along at a running stride and enjoy. Peace
Been doing MAF since 2003. MAF isn’t all about low intensity, and many don’t realize this. Doing higher intensities is totally allowed, but as you age you need to be careful. You go through ups and downs over the years but it has served me well and has kept me going. You have to stay consistent and roll with the ebbs and flows. I still got big plans at almost 55 so I’m sticking with it 😎
And don’t get me wrong. I don’t believe that MAF is the be all end all of training. There are many ways to train and I think that if one finds their happy place in training that works for them, that’s all that matters. I think it’s important to keep the basic principles in mind e.g. train mostly easy aerobic, eat whole foods, manage stress, sleep well. But you need to find your WHY that keeps you going day to day and I think that “mixing it up” and using your brain to determine how you FEEL is the most important. Too many people misinterpret MAF as meaning “always slow” and “no weight lifting” and that is completely wrong. One day I may write a book about it lol…..
It's been a couple of years since a read his book, but I do remember that in that book there were blocks of intervals when the easy running does not work anymore.
I'd say that it wasnt the purpouse at all to run easy all the time
What plans have you got ?
@@djc0108no plans. Every day I do a workout based on how I feel and what I want to do. If I have a big goal, I go a little longer every day and take stepback weeks. I also include some short hard efforts here and there but I'm 55 so not too many.
I do MAF during the winter months, and start 80/20 during spring/summer/fall for whatever race I'm signed up for.
You're not quitting - just taking a different approach. I have never supported the MM, so was delighted to see this. I am 63 and run with lots of variation and the result is that I consistently make time qualifiers in races, Iincluding BQs. Yesterday, I did a 10 mile trail run (1700 foot vertical) and today I ran a 5K race (6:40 pace) this morning. I feel great! Agree that you should be mixing things up!
I agree Dave. I think MAF works well when you are starting out or returning to running after a break. But, once you can run relatively comfortably for (I dunno, it's different for everyone) let's say 45-60 minutes, then I think always running slow/easy is as bad as always running hard! 🇨🇦🇨🇦😃😃 Variety is key and as you say add some faster runs, strides, intervals etc. Sometimes just entering a race or event is all you need. (October Toronto half or full marathon??)
Thank you for being humble enough to share this! One thing I've learned from watching these videos is how much of a journey it is. We experiment, try something and then re-adjust as needed and keep going. Thank you for the encouragement.
what's up dave! yeah I sort of moved away from MAF method last year. I still run about 90/10 polarized but by feel. I've been injured so often the last 2 years that I kind of know now when to dial it back down. I have no problem on walking on some easy runs. I've also added a lot more strength training to strengthen by core and guard against injury. I find that to get any positive adaptation, I need to run hard. So these days I run hard when I feel good, I run slow when I don't. Works out to about 1 hard session every 5 days or so (a lot less volume, more strength now). Also the quality of my fuel matters quite a bit - day after pizza dinner and i feel like a gasoline car running on diesel. Sleep is also a big factor for me. Either way, every day that you can get out to enjoy a beautiful sport like running is a good day :). cheers man, hope you find your good place!
I too find this unfortunately true. I read the MAF books and followed it, nutrition, zero-drop shoes and all, for 2 years. I didnt get better, I got slower and injured. Yes my triglycerides went so low that sensor couldnt detect, HDL went way high, etc etc. After two years on MAF, it took me another year to re-build my above MAF speed (I used Jack Daniel’s method). My frustration with MAF was that because the strides became so narrow (jog) and no variety in the strides and I got insertional achilles tendinosis despite running relatively same mileage/week before with closer to what 80/20 would recommend. Over the years, my take is that YES MAF works, but if we go by the book, a lot of the success stories come from triathletes who do HUGE training volumes and always pushing and that they are generally anatomically gifted. Other success stories come from high volume professional runners/athletes. We cant just extend these that “oh it is good for pros, must be good for time limited everyday athletes.” Everyone is different, try different things, seek coach’s help etc. Personally I find high drop shoes are better for me and 80/20 is the best for me to build fitness.
my chronic ankle issue started after trying zero drop shoes. No more, i run in what my body likes. These days, Saucony endorphin speed is my go to.
@@peterlee208 sorry to hear that. My Achilles still bothers me from time to time, which I injured it back in 2017. Hope you got yours sorted out for good.
One of the best videos I've watched this year. Well spoken and put together.
As you get older, you get slower, more injury prone, and gain weight a lot easier. You can't eat like you used to (sorry). Runners don't realize this until it actually happens to them. When I was in my 50s I went through a "phase" where I couldn't figure out why I wasn't getting any better or faster, despite doing more mileage and training better. I got injured a couple of times and gained weight. It was a really frustrating time. At some point you need to make peace with yourself getting older and slower. I'm almost 65 now, and I run 3-4 days a week, walk or hike 2-3 days, and always take at least 1 day off a week. You should always take a day or two off or you are asking for an injury or burn-out (sorry). The Maffetone Method works well to build up a base (if you are between ages 35-55). Otherwise it's too fast or too slow. I would look at 80/20 running or the Galloway run/walk methods to run better, but don't expect any major new PRs. Learn to enjoy the journey Dave, and maybe get away from all that technical data and training statistics. Good luck! 🙂
Well, at 61 I'll say I'm very similar to what I was doing at 51. But, without the niggling injuries, partly because I'm no longer trying to train on top of a tiring day job. Also, if you can include more cross training (for me that is now triathlon) and be careful with intensity I'll be more optimistic and say it's not a given that ageing brings a slower run pace and more injuries 😃😃
That is probably true, and for me the ageing process will have been going on in the background, but I have found I have improved out of all recognition in the last decade. I'm now mid-sixties, I'm a lot lighter, achieving much faster times and a lot less injury prone than I was back then. That said, I had a lot of improvement to make. And retirement does help. It helps a lot.
Interesting look at things. At 56 I smashed my half marathon pb by 17 mins. So you can train to get faster at an older age. When you set up a good training program injury prevention is part of it. I know people who skip warming up and cooling down. They also don't stretch or workout. Rest and recovery is another thing. Those are key to injury prevention. Diets should change much if you are injured also. Training is more than just running slow it is a combination of everything. Planning on more pb times this year. I have never used the maf method.
@@themechanic4409 It really depends on how long you've been running and how old you were when you first started. Runners who start when they are older can probably get better. But if you started in your 20s or 30s, it's doubtful you will improve on those times. You can improve in longer distances (like ultras) however mostly because of the mental aspect they require.
This guy makes me feel better about my life. I've been having a really hard time after my last competition. Took some time off to recover, and it just hasn't been the same.
Thanks Nathan, I hope you find rest and recover then start up again. Sometimes looking back can hurt a lot. Today is a new day and I do hope you get back to what feels right to you. Thanks to taking the time to leave a comment :)
Good video Dave. I have been trying to mix in a little weight lifting in. Wow am loving the dead lift (low weight). Am not looking to get jacked just build more all around strength and good posture
As the saying goes "Variety is the spice of life" Keep up the good work Dave.
Great video, Dave! I am looking forward to seeing more from your trail runs.
Dude i was so ready to jump down your throat in disagreement but you are pretty much spot on here. MAF training is great for building your base, but once you have this sussed you are right it is so easy to get bored. 80/20 split is my new plan, 80% zone 2 and 20% tempo/threshold/intervals. You do need a fairly high weekly mileage to get this split right though!
glad to hear! base building shouldn't take forever, when it is done then move on. good luck on your next adventure!
I like running fast. ⚡️ it feels good, even as an older athlete. I’m a kid again when I run like a kid again
Just getting back to running after a 6 week break due to injury and work. Really impressed with how much my base held up from the months of MAF training! Thanks for the guidance there 😉I started a Garmin coach plan for the 10k I have coming up on July 4th. 2 weeks in and the variety has been nice! I set a PB for the mile, my resting HR almost immediately dropped back down to the 51-52 range and I am feeling better than ever!
The most odd part to me was that I dreaded the idea of getting back after it. The thought of a run, even slow, was repulsive almost. I started by forcing myself to run very very slow. I walk at a 15 min/mile pace so I would jog at 12 min/mile. 2-3 runs in and my body felt better, my mind was clear and I was excited to run again. IDK if it was shame or guilt or just the devil (lol) but something was keeping me back! Thank you for the motivation and entertainment. It always helps pull me into a positive direction when I fall off a bit!
I think 6 weeks was too much, but every qtr or 2 I could see myself taking a week to 10 days off. Maybe if you, for whatever reason, take a week off I would love to know how you respond once you start back.
I really thought the title was click bait! 😂 I used MAF for 3 solid months, built a base, but lost my speed, form, and joy of running. Now I'm mixing it up, with 1 MAF run and 2-3 RPE runs with hills and speed, and loving running and improving again. I'm looking forward to seeing this new journey of yours!
Thanks Kelly. It's been a crazy few years of using the Maffetone Method. I've seen great results during that time but I've hit a plateau and I really needed a change as I love running the trails and some faster runs I know will spark my enjoyment again.
MAF doesn't say you should not do fast runs. In fact, incorporating some fast workouts is important. Neither it say you should run the same route all the time or avoid trails. MAF is not unique or some magic bullet. Most good training programs will have 80% of runs slow and easy. MAF helps massively building a very good base and developing arobic fitness. Most importantly, it helps prevent most injuries caused by people pushing themselves all the time and running too fast.
I started to use the 80 / 20 and was influenced by the MAF process as well. As an over 50 runner, I felt the heart rates were way too low. I do think it has its place though and I definitely work to stay in Zone 2 for my easy days. If I drift into zone 3 a little, I am okay with it. I used to get worked up over it and it was sucking the joy out of simply running. For me, I don't think I got magically faster by running a lot of Zone 2 mileage. It has allowed me to safely increase my mileage, and I have way more energy / strength for the harder days. So it has its place. But you definitely have to do the harder sessions to get faster, at least in my opinion. If all you do is run Zone 1 / 2 its hard to expect that you would have the physical and mental strength to hold onto Zone 4 / 5 for a 5K.
This was my experience as well. I'm now enjoying my RPE runs, with a weekly MAF recovery run.
I've come to think we can over technologize running. MAF isn't the only guilty method. But it's one. Running by feel and listening to our bodies is the key. MAF can be a pedagogical tool to get there but isn't needed or good one you're heading what your body tells you. . Good luck with your training.
I have been using the Polarized Method for cycling. 80% of my rides are at 75% of my lactate threshold while 20% are at 95-120% of lactate threshold. I LOVE IT! Always willing to train and fitness is higher than ever. This method can be applied to running.
I agree with you. I think MAF is great for a) rebuilding after illness or injury (I did that after surgery) and b) keeping you honest on your easy days but you need some speed development, too. Especially as you get older, doing sprints or VO2 max intervals of 3-5 min in length are vital to keep your fast twitch fibres going. I'm still going with MAF HR for my easy days but I've introduced sprints or VO2 max intervals each weeks plus a threshold session. I'm now doing 90/10 or 80/20 in competitive season. I also do resistance training to keep my muscular strength.
Great video. I totally agree. Basically, doing aerobic easy, steady or steady runs has been the foundation of most running methods since the 50s. No matter if you do 80/20 or some Norwegian treshold Ingebrigtsen style, or whatever: As long as you have lots of aerobic mileage between quality sessions you'll be allright. Maffetone pretends they have evidence it works better than other methods, but then again a runner following either of other methods have as good results, if taking easy mileage seriously. People really dont understand how much easy mileage a Kipchoge or Ingebrigtsen does. Thats the real problem. People dont understand how important aerobic base or mileage is. When Kipchoge runs some runs at 5:00/km when marathon pace is 2:50/km, with my 5:40 marathon pace, then I'd better run at 6:50 (easy) or 7:45 (recovery) myself. Its very important to have variation and fun in training. Great video. I have ADHD myself. Fully understand. Now I run easy, steady, steady, marathon pace, 10 k pace, 5 k pace, longruns, intervals, short runs, treshold, VO2max. As long as you do aerobic base you can do many type of pace some times a week. I do think for most people 80/20 is a great method.
You didn’t ask me for advice and if you want to ignore it, I’m of course totally fine with it.
Take a step back in running and follow an easy and light maintenance schedule. At the same time apply a more holistic approach to your training and focus more on other aspects. Start with a 3 months block of intermittent fasting and focus on diet, sleep, recovery and meditation. Cut alcohol to zero for those 3 months. I’m sure if you stick with that for 3 months, your next MAF training block will be amazing.
i do maf 3 times a week and i have 1 speed session on tuesday. tempo, threshold or repeats. i'm always looking forward to tuesdays :D
Any training that is too rigid will in the end not work. The first rule of running well is enjoyment! If you don't enjoy what you're doing you will inevitably stop running. The second rule is to mix it up - do your long slow runs, but mix them up with some higher intensity, some race pace and even good solid hikes. If you enjoy it, and want to get any running results, then get a coach who will help you to achieve your objectives. Mensa Cosa Coaching can help....
The great Arthur Lydiard - one of the pioneers of the "run slow to run fast" approach, and probably the greatest running coach of the 20th century would agree with you. He always maintained that you should do a block of aerobic base training for no longer than 12 weeks, otherwise you'd go nuts. And even during the 12 week block, he'd have is runners work some strides or fartlek components into some sessions, just to remind them of what leg turnover feels like. Ultimately, unless you're a professional, running needs to be enjoyable and interesting, otherwise you'll stop doing it.
"... hard on the mind, because it's easy on the body." This is true about so many things (not all the time, of course) but it's a great thought!
my hunch is that after all those aerobic miles, your lactate threshold shifted. i followed MAF for some years (coincidently, my zone 2), it worked very well, then it stagnated. did some lactate threshold test (garmin), to my surprise, my lactate threshold hr is higher than before, thus my zone 2 is higher than my MAF hr. using my new zone 2 based on LTHR zone, & then things started moving again.. now i re-test my lactate threshold every 1-2 month, to make sure that my zones are set correctly each month. it would be much more accurate if u can invest in some lactate meter, 2mmol is the upper range for zone 2. podcast by Peter Attia & Inigo San Millan is very very informative, can check it out
Dave, I needed this video. My first (and probably) last dog recently passed away. 😭😭😭 I've been really depressed and had fallen out of love with running. However, I went out the other day and ran a tempo run. It felt good and I was happy for the first time since her passing. However, I felt guilty. Like I was cheating on the Maffatone method. But right now, I need to incorporate faster running into my schedule. I'm going to try 80/20 for awhile and see how that goes.
i follow maff to build base then a race plan for say a 16 wk marathon block
Ask yourself what you’re trying to optimize for. If you’re trying to shave every last second off your race times, then yeah hire a coach and do some variation of 80/20. If you’re optimizing for overall enjoyment and fulfillment from your hobby, then experiment and find a routine that keeps you excited to get out the door and keeps you healthy. I’m 40, usually run 5 times a week and 3 or 4 of those will be at threshold. It probably doesn’t optimize my race times, but it works ok and I love it…if I wanted to spend 8 hours a week in Zone 2 I’d play golf
To keep things easy (on the head) I switched to a 3 HR zone model. Sub LT1, Sub LT2, and LT2+. With the idea that sub LT1 is Fat burning mode (primarily) designed to train your body to burn fats over glycogen. Sub LT2 people often call this tempo, idea here is to work on form and push LT2 up from below, add muscular endurance. LT2+ is threshold, I spend very little time here per week. Idea here is to drag LT2 up from above, run longer at threshold. As a 50yr (in a few weeks), I went from running 5 days a week with way too much intensity, to 7days a week with 110km weeks, where I had 3 easy days (Sub LT1) , 2 aerobic runs with strides (low Sub LT2 and spikes during strides, but not to LT2), 1 workout session (HR out the window all Power driven), and 1 long run. The strides REALLY helped improve form without adding intensity to my weekly totals, and as a result we slowly extended the strides. I went 70 days running in a row without needing take a rest day...till I caught covid for the first time....ugh. Now I had to get a coach to make me train this way, and keep me honest, and it was worth every penny. 6 days out from my marathon and looking to PB by 30+ mins.
As mentioned repeatedly here, MAF can work great as a starting point for people, but eventually...it runs it's course and you need to provide your body varied stimulus to continue progressing.
We are all diffrent. Im in my 50s and only been running for 3 years. I run 80% slow 20% fast. Ive been doing this for 18 months and ive pb on my half marathons 10k and 5k but the best things is im not getting any injuries anymore so im consistent and thats the key for me...
You’re actually not alone with a long list of people who have either wanted to quit MAF or who have quit MAF.
When I’ve done research on it, boredom and lack of improvement after a certain point seem to be the two biggest complaints about the MAF method.
I’d say go for the 80/20 method since you have that aerobic base down. It’ll give you that variety you’ve been looking for.
Also, I’d look into cross training as well as way to mix things up and not be constantly running at the same distance and pace all the time.
I tried the Maffetone method. The pace improvements were minimal and were offset by how much my form deteriorated to maintain a low heart rate. It was completely joyless. I’m trying to be responsible with speed work vs easy runs and trust how my body feels.
I don’t enjoy my runs if I follow some “structured” method/ plan.
If I feel like running slower, I do; if I feel like intervals, i do; etc.
I never want to be in a position where I ‘have’ to something because someone said so.
If I plan on doing a some type of race then, maybe, I follow some plan… but very loosely. Your mileage should dictate whether you can run that distance or not.
I run for fun, not to break any time or mileage or any arbitrary set number. If it happens, then I take it as a bonus.
oh boy i thought i would not live long enough to see this video, i am really happy for you, to leave the prison after such a long time.....run free....enjoy.....be happy ( my last comment is years ago under my former nick name Thomas Fritz)
I mean it definitely has it's place. Like 80% of runs should be done following the MAF method (if you want to call it that), but the main idea is just to do it at an aerobic level as that's where you will gain most.
For someone less fit or just starting out I can see why it would not work, because it would be very difficult to run in zone 2 whilst maintaining form with a low level of fitness. And on the other side, if you just run slow (MAF) 100% of the time you will become very good at running slow, and lose ability to run fast. You will also burn out if you do all running slow, or all running fast, for different reasons at each side of the spectrum but burn out regardless. It sounds pretty textbook but no matter what level you're at, if you have some degree of fitness and want to get faster, you need to be doing around 20% of running faster. Depending on your age/condition/injuries it doesn't mean you have to be doing high intensity intervals all the time, or 30min thresholds, but something that will challenge your speed endurance, leg speed etc.
So I do 80% of my runs between 4:30-5:20:/km and then the remaining 20% at moderate- high intensity, which can be anywhere from 3:35/km to fast 200m intervals. TLDR if you switch up the runs, try some hill reps, fartleks, long runs with faster sections, tempos; your body adapts better and not only do you look forward to running more but you improve much quicker. You will also go back to your majority easy runs and start to see pace/heartrate gains that you just weren't getting before.
And yeah I know everyone has different goals, some people just want to run, but it doesn't have to be super technical to be more fun, when you know the basics :) hope something helped
This video is titled wrong. You do understand that you aren't supposed to stay building a base forever. MAF works but if dedicated to always improving, then it is part of a training cycle.
I don't remember exactly where Maffetone sets zone 2 range, but mine is pretty low like his (60-75%). There's no reason to run like that every day in a training week for longer than about 12-16 weeks. You will have gotten all the mitochondrial and capillary density adaptations by then. If you are doing polarized training, then go to your lactate threshold and "speed" work. If you do it like me, then go to stamina phase (tempo, etc) before moving on to economy (lactate threshold and running economy), and then on to real speed training. Then go back to your base / endurance phase again. I don't even think Maffetone suggests you should do this endlessly. Basically, you will start to see dwindling improvements in your MAF tests as the weeks go on in that first phase. At a certain point, the marginal improvements you measure will not be justified with respect to the time and fatigue (stimulus to fatigue ratio is going to drop). The problem is that those early adaptations are largely not noticeable (more mitochondria and capillaries). You can only see them indirectly by noting improvements in your paces at the same aerobic heart rate. Once that dries up, then you need to move on to your next phase of training. That's my 2c, anyway. Plus, you will get bored if you don't stick with a periodized training system, which is what you experienced. Base training is fun after you have gone through all the phases and your body is kind of run down from the speed work and racing.
I totally get where you're coming from, and it's evident that you have a solid understanding of training principles and the Maffetone Method. It's true that sticking to a low heart rate zone for extended periods can lead to diminishing returns, and it's essential to incorporate different phases in your training to keep making progress. I've seen great results over the years however there does come a point where runners need some faster running.
Periodization is key to preventing burnout and boredom. Moving through different phases like base, stamina, economy, and speed work allows us to target different aspects of our running performance and keep things fresh and exciting.
The base training phase can indeed be enjoyable, especially when we've already gone through the entire cycle of training and our body needs that recovery and endurance focus. It's during this time that we can truly appreciate the benefits of the earlier adaptations and the groundwork we've laid.
And you're spot on about the early adaptations being less noticeable. The improvements in mitochondrial and capillary density might not be immediately visible, but we see them in our improved paces at the same aerobic heart rate. It's like the foundation for further growth and progress.
At some point, we have to recognize that we've squeezed all we can out of that particular phase, and it's time to move on to the next challenge. It's about finding that balance between pushing ourselves and allowing sufficient recovery to avoid overtraining.
Your two cents are worth a lot, and it's always great to exchange knowledge and experiences with fellow runners. Remember, running is a journey, and each phase teaches us valuable lessons about ourselves and our capabilities. So, here's to embracing the process, staying adaptable, and continuing to chase those personal bests!
I always wanted to try MAF but had my doubts. It sounds very sound but I don't really like being restricted while running. I feel I improve the most when I let the running happen naturally
That's too bad. Yeah, motivation is key. I stuck at it and found myself running faster, but it takes time. Also, 80-20 split is OK. You don't have to stick at MAF HR for all runs.
And if you are training for an event you can up the intensity, but do long runs at MAF HF.
Do you recommend the 80/20 running techniques instead of the MAF method ?
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nice t-shirt
MAF, zone 2, easy runs...they are all the same.....just run easy, and base it on perceived effort.
I can’t bear the maffetone method. I just run as I like when I like. I am 72.
Do ultra...50km then 100 km then 100miles
Sounds stessful. Charts & graphs lol.? Sounds like someone training for the olympics. Im reletavly new to running.. but i simply do it for fun. Sounds like youre overthinking, and over complicating things. Running coach? Ffs.. im 48 years old, not a college athelete. Sounds exhausting. To keep running fun.. just run for fun.
Have you tried the 80/20 method or at least try 50/50
Yes I have.
Of course you are not suppose to run MAF all the time. Its for aerobic base building.
Unfortunately, it took you a long time to realise how the professional train.
Best method is to follow 80/20 formula they use.
I'm 57 and my pace is not improving. I know the only way to improve is to add Hill repeats and interval training. It's painful, and I really have to be carful not to injure myself, but its the only way if I want to improve
Running slow, Will only make you slower. I tried running after the Maff method for a year or so. I don’t think I had enough weekly hours to benefit from it. I run daily from 5-12km. And the slow run only made me slower. I’m quite sure doing the same over and over will make us people lazy. The body or at least mine need a wake up call. So I skipped it, and try to push my self a bit now, and that seems to work. But that’s just me :)