Hearing the Targaryen story narrate is great but also sad. You escape one doom then little by little their dynasty fall apart by some bad and questionable decisions but also a series of event that they cause they could have rule until the end of time. Seeing it unfold in the Dance then see what they were fighting to win back in GOT..
True. Honestly, it makes you wonder how things would've changed had Viserys just... took a page out of his predecessor's book and called a Great Council to decide whether Rhaenyra or Aegon II would be Heir Then again, Viserys was evidently a terrible father to his kids with Alicent so who knows, maybe Aegon 2 still wouldn't have grown to be the best suited for that Throne. Oh, what could have been...
@@thalmoragent9344 a great council wouldn't have made things better , the issue wasn't Rhenyra being hier most Lord's wasn't that bothered by it , the problem was the high towers userping the throne if they didn't make aegon king and let rhenerya be queen the dance wouldn't have happened.
@@thatoneblackdude3333 The fact the Greens had supporters means that, like many before Viserys forced all the Lords to bend the knee, there was plenty in the Realm expecting Aegon to be Heir and not Rhaenyra That and having multiple bastards in line for the Throne is high treason. Hell, something Viserys has consistently done is just ensure Rhaenyra didn't face any consequences, and had the Greens not crowned Aegon, more people would've seen Jace and his Strong siblings more in the forefront, also making the Line of Succession questionable. If a Great Council was called, or at least a Semi-Great Council with just all the high Lords, then I'm sure Aegon would've won, just as Viserys did over Rhaenys the last time this happened. The Hightowers and their allies wouldn't have needed to crown Aegon the way they did if the obvious succession was made apparent before Viserys' death Maybe the Dance wouldn't have happened the way it did, but eventually, Viserys' line with Alicent would've been brought to the forefront against the Rhaenyra's own "Strong line"
@@thalmoragent9344 and there was plenty who supported rhenerya so that's a mute point . No it isn't when the king and the Lord they hail from acknowledge them as heirs it's only treason if it's done behind the kings back but visarys knew plus they'd take the targaryen name once they sat the throne making them true targaryens . No he wouldn't more houses sided with rhenerya because she was the rightful hier and even if it was just the main 6 houses I'd just be a tie because half the realm sided with rhenerya , for fuck sake you green stains beyond reason your solutions always result to letting ageon be king yes" let the incompetent irresponsible rapist be king that's obviously the right answer" bro you clearly lack reading comprehension but dude it's not that hard Gourge has spent all 5 books critizing westaros and it's fucked up laws how awful does this place have to be for you people to realize that you aren't supposed to support there rules and that fallowing them is wrong these rules don't create peace they are literally the cause of these issues, case and point the great council is what put visarys on the throne and look what happened? You still think it's the solution? Aegon got to be king as per andul law and look what happened? " the obvious succession " is not the fucking solution good fucking God also there was no confusion with the succession rhenerya was the hier nobody was confused on that the hightowers stole the throne and proped aegon as king and there backstabbing allies supported them . No it wouldn't have if the high towers stayed loyal there would be no war and nobody would do anything against rhenerya this all started because of the Hightowers if the house of the Dragon stood United in support of rhenerya there is literally nothing the other Lord's can do about it the war only happened because the high towers tore the house apart and nearly destroyed it for selfish ambitions.
@@thatoneblackdude3333 Sitting the Throne doesn't make you a "true Targaryen", but I mean hey, this is from the same person who sees Aegon 2 as terrible (he is) but Rhaenyra is so much better? I didn't read the books, but I know enough of them. She had her husband killed, she committed high treason in having MULTIPLE bastards, killed or "silenced" anyone who stated the obvious truth, and even the people rose up against her in King's Landing. Neither her or Aegon 2 was fit to rule. Rhaenyra didn't give a crap about her Duty or Tradition, she just wanted the power of the Throne. She literally told her father off the bat that she didn't want to go through the responsibilities of being heir to the Throne. All I'm saying is, if Viserys was a terrible father to his kids with Alicent, and if he wasn't a blind fool who avoided any smidgen of conflict to a fault, maybe I'd respect the guy's decision more. Not all of Westerosi rules were wrong or terrible, we have laws in our world that have been made from societies thousands of years ago, Westeros is magical, off-beat Feudal Europe, with all its faults and flaws. Some are gone, some have remained with us, for better or worse. If you're honestly saying Rhaenyra is the best choice as heir then it seems you aren't as comprehensive as you claim to be. Neither were fit to rule, nor was Viserys himself tbh. My point was that if Aegon was named heir once of age, then the war wouldn't have happened and maybe he'd have grown to be a decent ruler. Instead, Viserys was a King with no backbone or decent level of intelligence so, here we are. The Hightowers aren't to blame, its the idiot King Viserys and House Targaryen. By virtue of every Targaryen ruler before him, Viserys should've named Aegon Heir, and have been a better father. Instead, he defended his daughters treasons and incapable rulership and that weakness led to the Dance.
If Jaehaerys had just named Rhaenys his heir instead of calling a great council, who would have started a war? Daemon? with 1 dragon and a small band of sellswords? against Vermithor, Silverwing, Meleys, and the Velaryon navy? thats the simplest way to prevent all these wars.
Daemon, Caraxes + 2/3 of the westerosi nobility that wouldn't want their own inheritances disputed by their sisters. And as F&B clearly states, Daemon has a particular penchant for raising armies out of thin air (mf literally assembled a larger army than the Velaryons could muster during their war in the Stepstones). Also, Rhaenys would only have Meleys on her side. The Old King couldn't fly into battle by 101 AC. Queen Alysanne was dead, meaning Silverwing was dormant. And as you'll find out, the Velaryon Fleet ain't shit when pitched against the Triarchy Fleet much less the Redwyne, Greyjoy and Lannister Fleets.
@@princepscivitatis4083 why would lords worry about being usurped by their sisters? Rhaenys is Viserys' cousin, and a daughter always comes before an uncle in westerosi succesion.
@@chrisrubin6445 You do know that the nobility voted 20:1 in favor of Viserys, right? Rhaenys and Viserys are both grandchildren of Jaehaerys. Viserys' dad already bypassed Rhaenys in the line of succession after Jaehaerys invoked the 'Right of proximity' meaning Viserys was ahead of his cousin in the line of succession. If anything, Jaehaerys had only one obvious choice if he was ever going to arbitrarily rule in favor of either. But he was more prudent than that, so he summoned a Great Council and they made his choice for him, only it's not arbitrary but instead back by the collective voice of the realm. This is what singlehandedly ensured another 3 decades of peace even though Viserys was weak af and the Velaryons had more dragons than the Targs later down the line.
@@princepscivitatis4083 the nobility voting is literally meaningless, Jaehaerys should never have bypassed Rhaenys for Baelon in the first place, in westeros a daughter comes before an uncle.
One important thing to point out: the monicker "Queen Who Never Was" happens to be an invention of Mushroom (Viserys's court fool) and it's not meant to be flattering at all. It's something akin to Olenna Redwyne's monicker: "Queen of Thorns" (because she got spurned by Daeron Targaryen in favor of a male favorite of his).
@@thalmoragent9344 That's Olenna's version of events, which is not even remotely true. Just an acute case of "The Fox and the Grapes." What actually happened was that she was betrothed to Prince Daeron Targaryen, son of King Aegon V Targaryen. As such, she was set to be in the line of Targaryen succession i.e. a potential Queen. But Daeron was gay and after his siblings spurned their own arranged marriages, he did too. He rejected Olenna in favor of Ser Jeremy Norridge. After that, Olenna seduced her own sister's betrothed (Lord Martyn Tyrell) and married him. But she was forever known as the "Queen of Thorns."
@@princepscivitatis4083 Ah, I see. So how did she get away with taking her sister's betrothed? I remember her telling the story but like, she broke a betrothal that easily? Also, thanks for the info 👍🏾
It's ridiculous how ppl thought the female can't carry the family name. Yet in the books we have Harry the Heir someone who is born of the female line of house Arryn and three generations removed from it yet will assume the name Arryn should Sweetrobin die without issue. Yet ppl thought that if Rhaenys took the throne as Queen then her child would get the Velaryon name and the throne would change hands from Targaryen to Velaryon.
@@andyh4518 women and descendants of the female line shouldn't have to be the your very last option just cuz the male line is exhausted/expired due Dumb fuckery or saying shit like "This isn't Dorne" at least, as far as we know, Dorne didn't collapse in on itself from succession disputes cuz of something as stupid as gender priority.
@@madambutterfly1997 Of course it's idiotic, just like picking your leader based solely off birth order and parentage is idiotic. That's the world of Westeros.
Rhaenys should have been Queen. She would have done a job as well done as Viserys if not better. And she will not be so easily influenced. Also, it would have solved some many future succession crisis.
Do you know why the Old King summoned a Great Council? Because while the Velaryons were pushing Laenor's and Rhaenys' claim through the strength of arms, Daemon Targaryen took up the cause of his brother Viserys and responded in kind. Like he showed at the Stepstones War, Daemon had a penchant for raising armies out of thin air. And he would've been bolstered by all the Lords that felt threatened of a woman superceding a man (which, if the Council's vote is to be believed, is 20:1) Naming Rhaenys would've caused the Dance right then and there.
@@princepscivitatis4083 no one would question Jahaerys decision, he and his wife is extremely too popular to the smallfolk, noble uprising would've been futile, and not to mention the queen who never was already had a son, if anything a small uprising would've happened after Jahaerys passing, the action rhaenys could take is through show of power using meleys and stop the uprising, and I would've doubt anyone of Jahaerys grandchildren would scheme against his chosen heir, not even daemon I bet considering all daemon care for is just attentions and approval from his brother and whorehouses
I tried to make a complete family tree including all the houses that House Targaryen married into but just abandoned it as the tree is just a hot mess for this exact reason.
So, another hot take, this is gonna be a long one, and please don't behead me; As much as I do agree Rhaenys did have good aptitude for rule, I've seen lots of comments mention Old Valyria and how there, the rules weren't as set such as Westeros, allowing both men and women to inherit. Some say it's tragic the Targaryens "forgot" this custom, but I have a rebuttal; I don't think it's "tragic" the Valyrian families had to adapt to Westerosi customs. They have their own customs that are still Valyrian but Aegon himself chose to adopt Westerosi customs so he'd be seen as a legitimate ruler. He made the banner for House Targaryen which wasn't around till he made it, he was anointed by the High Septon, and even before he invaded, it seems Aegon's followers saw him as the True ruler, and not the older Visenya. And Visenya herself had no objections to this, she just rolled with it. Not to mention that House Velaryon was in Westeros even longer than the Targaryens. Marrying direct family members is a Valyrian thing, as is their language and the dragon-aesthetic, etc But it's not really a "tragedy" that they've adapted to at least some customs of the Continent they rule. Not once before Rhaenyra has there been such an entitled Targaryen woman who was adamant at taking the Throne over her younger brother Visenya didn't care, Aegon the Uncrowned and Jaeherys had an elder sister, Rhaella (or was it Rhaena?) but she didn't mind her younger brother Aegon being her husband and heir to the Throne after their father Aenys. Then Rhaenys made an argument about her being the heir after Aemon (who was also a younger brother to an older sister but she died pretty young) instead of her uncle Baelon. So a Great Council was made, Viserys won over Rhaenys, and she let it go shortly after, and respected the decision (even more than Corlys himself did) So when Rhaenyra comes to the Throne as Heir, and she's shown not to care about Duty or Tradition, then... yeah, there's a problem. Granted, neither Rhaenyra or Aegon 2 (heck, not even Viserys himself) should've been inheritors or sat on the Throne. They all, in their own ways, suck. Aegon 2 arguably would've been more like Robert since he had a decent Council but even then, not the same or as effective. Aemond would've been OK but his disfigurement as a kid left him bitter towards Luke so, that emotion sadly got the better of him, but let's not get ahead of ourselves The moral of the story? When in doubt, pull a Jaehaerys and ask the Realm for help in succession crisis. Jaehaerys did it, and a future Targaryen King (Egg) was also made King due to a vote.
Rhaenyra wasnt just like inherently feeling entitled to the throne over her brothers, she was the only Targaryen female at that point who had a younger brother, while also being constantly reaffirmed as heir by the king. That was what was unprecedented, Rhaenyra only felt entitled to what her father the king wanted to leave to her. Meanwhile Jaehaerys, at the height of his political power decides to create decades of doubt and division by calling the great council that could really only long term lead to war, if the high lords feel entitled to choose their monarch. Jaehaerys if he was smart, should have just said Rhaenys is the heir, and then her children after her will take the Targaryen name. Its not that complicated, and you then have a dragon riding monarch, ruling wisely, with the largest navy in the realm at her back and a small army of dragons. The reason King Viserys naming his daughter as heir was such a huge problem was the fact that Jaehaerys had already screwed it up by calling the great council, and Viserys had exactly ZERO dragons to enforce his will, Rhaenys would initially have Vermithor, Silverwing, and Meleys, and eventually Seasmoke and Vhgar. Jaehaerys calling the great council seriously undermined royal authority and set the stage for centuries of war to follow.
@@chrisrubin6445 having the council be mandatory for choosing the king is the best option. The only way to improve on that would be to have a council determine the written laws for deciding the heir based on various scenarios. No lord could go against the council vote because that would be treason. Unless they had many houses who agreed with them and if that was to happen then they should have won the vote anyway.
Your moral of the story is defending westaros fucked up laws and traditions which is the completely wrong way to interpret this story line Gourge as gone time and time again that westaros laws and traditions are wrong they actively hurt everyone there system benefits nobody but the powerful and even then it hurts even them eventually so yes the targaryens abandoning there traditions was a tragedy because that led to there deaths andul customs killed house targaryen , aegon and other targaryens accepting the westaros sexism ways doesn't=that it isn't bad dear fucking God hotd created some rid crazy fans convincing themselves that westaros way of life is actually somehow not that bad and that it's fine that women shouldn't be allowed to rule that they should just be content to suffer in there fucked up system like seriously do you fucking hear yourself? The great council literally created bad kings not good ones because the Nobel Lord's don't look for compatent rulers it's based purely on bias and personal agendas the the vary fact Thsr visarys failed as jeharyes successor should have clued you in on the fact that it was flawed from foundation .
@@chrisrubin6445 Even in our world, Monarchs still had to answer to the likes of say, the Pope or their own high Lords who still have a lot of their own power. Even Monarchs aren't God's, and if anything, it made the Monarchy more respected. Even Aegon bent to some Westerosi customs, he didn't say "screw you guys, I'm bringing full-on Valyrian identity on top of you First Men and Andals". He somewhat adapted. If anything, my counter argument to your statement is that Jaeherys should've stuck with his succession decision and named Baelon's Eldest son, Viserys, the Heir right off the bat. After Aemon died, Baelon was chosen as heir. Jaehaerys got such heavy flack from Rhaenys, Corlys, Alyssane, and Rhaenys' mother and uncle Baratheon that he called the Council to "prevent a war over his succession from happening". And... they basically all said "yeah man, you're right, Viserys should be the heir" and so Jaehaerys was all set And that's not how that works, if Rhaenys was named heir and her kids would be named Targaryen, then shoot, what's the point, any lord who married a Targaryen woman before could just give their kids the Targaryen name, if that's what's happening. Remember Aemma? Her mother was Daella Targaryen. So, could the Arryns get away with naming her Aemma Targaryen? Not to mention, if Rhaenys becomes queen who obviously other men in her family still around, then suddenly other citizens of Westeros could make arguments for ladies of other houses being heir, then you've got all these mini-civil wars over who gets to rule who and why. All I'm saying is, how about you DON'T take a page out of Viserys' book and break centuries, actually no, over a *Millenia* of Ancient Tradition, customs and rules of succession with no other reason than "I say so". Your argument for Jaehaerys making the Monarchy weak doesn't work when you realize that the King before him was Maegor the Cruel. Now unless you wanna tell me Maegor was within his "royal rights" to do absolutely everything he did, then... I'd say even the Monarchy, as powerful and feared and respected as it should be, still needs SOME humility and wise decision making so as to best accommodate, well, everything they do
@@adefay2811 Yeah, either Jaehaerys should've made it law for there to always be a proper vote for Heir, or he should've made the Male Primogeniture not just tradition but straight up written law It was an "unwritten rule" that all the Targaryens before him followed but maybe some things, obvious as they should be, just NEED to be stated since some (like Viserys) just can't seem to understand the importance of them. Jaehaerys' only mistake was not using the Great Council to essentially reaffirm and solidify male Primogeniture. But hey, the Dance itself made sure not a single Targaryen woman sat the Throne, with Dany being a future rare case for obvious reasons; she's the last Targaryen (well, we'll see how Jon's parentage goes in the books, as well as this Young Griff I've been hearing about). But, well, she's the last confirmed Targaryen so, yeah that's how it goes Another Great Council was called to make a succession choice as well, as mentioned above so, some guy looked back at the Dance and said "yeah, let's not pull a Viserys again", with or without Dragons. 😅
Leana and Leanor had white hair. Their father Corlys had white hair. Their mother has whitehaired grandparents, who were brother and sister. In the show, Rheanys has white hair. In the books she had black hair with silver streaks as a young woman. Seems to me that white hair is a recessive genetic trait. Just like red hair in our world. Both Corlys and Rheanys have Targaryen ancestry. Both are carriers so the chances of them having kids with white hair is very big. Which is why people were raising eyebrows at Rheanyra giving birth to three brownhaired boys, meaning that the brown hair must have come from Leanor...her cousin. who has white hair and shares the same whitehaired great grandparents...their childrens' brown hair is..... Strong. But not necessarily, stronger than white hair😉
Would the Dance have happened the way it did if the Rhaenys line ascended (Viserys would have acquiesced to the Great Council, Daemon would not have a leg to stand on at least then). In this scenario, there is the chance that Viserys does not marry again or foist death on childbirth upon Aemma. Would Corlys see advantage in wedding Laenor to Rhaenyra? If so, we have the same situation with the Strong boys, but with no real alternative to challenge them other than Daemon. The Daemon challenge is blunted if he marries Laena. Additionally, Laenor is king for the foreseeable future. Unlike Rhaenyra, he is male and therefore it is not the double whammy of being a woman heir apparent with a bastard heir apparent.
I genuinely doubt it. If Rhaenys was kept heir, Laena would be her heir since she was the eldest. Daemon would still marry her and Baela or Rhaena would be queen. I’d assume if this was the case, female heirs would no longer be taboo. Do keep in mind, Jaehaerys changing Rhaenys to Baelon as heir showed Westeros females heirs don’t matter if there is a male. It’s why Otto and Alicent were to manipulate the court to make Aegon king.
Getting to her own wedding on dragon's back is such a boss move.
Hearing the Targaryen story narrate is great but also sad. You escape one doom then little by little their dynasty fall apart by some bad and questionable decisions but also a series of event that they cause they could have rule until the end of time. Seeing it unfold in the Dance then see what they were fighting to win back in GOT..
True. Honestly, it makes you wonder how things would've changed had Viserys just... took a page out of his predecessor's book and called a Great Council to decide whether Rhaenyra or Aegon II would be Heir
Then again, Viserys was evidently a terrible father to his kids with Alicent so who knows, maybe Aegon 2 still wouldn't have grown to be the best suited for that Throne.
Oh, what could have been...
@@thalmoragent9344 a great council wouldn't have made things better , the issue wasn't Rhenyra being hier most Lord's wasn't that bothered by it , the problem was the high towers userping the throne if they didn't make aegon king and let rhenerya be queen the dance wouldn't have happened.
@@thatoneblackdude3333
The fact the Greens had supporters means that, like many before Viserys forced all the Lords to bend the knee, there was plenty in the Realm expecting Aegon to be Heir and not Rhaenyra
That and having multiple bastards in line for the Throne is high treason. Hell, something Viserys has consistently done is just ensure Rhaenyra didn't face any consequences, and had the Greens not crowned Aegon, more people would've seen Jace and his Strong siblings more in the forefront, also making the Line of Succession questionable.
If a Great Council was called, or at least a Semi-Great Council with just all the high Lords, then I'm sure Aegon would've won, just as Viserys did over Rhaenys the last time this happened. The Hightowers and their allies wouldn't have needed to crown Aegon the way they did if the obvious succession was made apparent before Viserys' death
Maybe the Dance wouldn't have happened the way it did, but eventually, Viserys' line with Alicent would've been brought to the forefront against the Rhaenyra's own "Strong line"
@@thalmoragent9344 and there was plenty who supported rhenerya so that's a mute point .
No it isn't when the king and the Lord they hail from acknowledge them as heirs it's only treason if it's done behind the kings back but visarys knew plus they'd take the targaryen name once they sat the throne making them true targaryens .
No he wouldn't more houses sided with rhenerya because she was the rightful hier and even if it was just the main 6 houses I'd just be a tie because half the realm sided with rhenerya , for fuck sake you green stains beyond reason your solutions always result to letting ageon be king yes" let the incompetent irresponsible rapist be king that's obviously the right answer" bro you clearly lack reading comprehension but dude it's not that hard Gourge has spent all 5 books critizing westaros and it's fucked up laws how awful does this place have to be for you people to realize that you aren't supposed to support there rules and that fallowing them is wrong these rules don't create peace they are literally the cause of these issues, case and point the great council is what put visarys on the throne and look what happened? You still think it's the solution? Aegon got to be king as per andul law and look what happened? " the obvious succession " is not the fucking solution good fucking God also there was no confusion with the succession rhenerya was the hier nobody was confused on that the hightowers stole the throne and proped aegon as king and there backstabbing allies supported them .
No it wouldn't have if the high towers stayed loyal there would be no war and nobody would do anything against rhenerya this all started because of the Hightowers if the house of the Dragon stood United in support of rhenerya there is literally nothing the other Lord's can do about it the war only happened because the high towers tore the house apart and nearly destroyed it for selfish ambitions.
@@thatoneblackdude3333
Sitting the Throne doesn't make you a "true Targaryen", but I mean hey, this is from the same person who sees Aegon 2 as terrible (he is) but Rhaenyra is so much better?
I didn't read the books, but I know enough of them.
She had her husband killed, she committed high treason in having MULTIPLE bastards, killed or "silenced" anyone who stated the obvious truth, and even the people rose up against her in King's Landing.
Neither her or Aegon 2 was fit to rule. Rhaenyra didn't give a crap about her Duty or Tradition, she just wanted the power of the Throne. She literally told her father off the bat that she didn't want to go through the responsibilities of being heir to the Throne.
All I'm saying is, if Viserys was a terrible father to his kids with Alicent, and if he wasn't a blind fool who avoided any smidgen of conflict to a fault, maybe I'd respect the guy's decision more.
Not all of Westerosi rules were wrong or terrible, we have laws in our world that have been made from societies thousands of years ago, Westeros is magical, off-beat Feudal Europe, with all its faults and flaws. Some are gone, some have remained with us, for better or worse.
If you're honestly saying Rhaenyra is the best choice as heir then it seems you aren't as comprehensive as you claim to be. Neither were fit to rule, nor was Viserys himself tbh. My point was that if Aegon was named heir once of age, then the war wouldn't have happened and maybe he'd have grown to be a decent ruler.
Instead, Viserys was a King with no backbone or decent level of intelligence so, here we are. The Hightowers aren't to blame, its the idiot King Viserys and House Targaryen.
By virtue of every Targaryen ruler before him, Viserys should've named Aegon Heir, and have been a better father. Instead, he defended his daughters treasons and incapable rulership and that weakness led to the Dance.
Who is coming back here after House Of The Dragon? RIP to The Queen Who ALWAYS was!
The Queen who Should have Been
She got lobsters between her cooch 😂
Not after that terrorist stunt she pulled up
Only for her family's name to die at Laenor cus...ya know
Rhaenys is my favorite Fire and blood/ hotD character🔥🔥🔥 badass through and through.
If Jaehaerys had just named Rhaenys his heir instead of calling a great council, who would have started a war? Daemon? with 1 dragon and a small band of sellswords? against Vermithor, Silverwing, Meleys, and the Velaryon navy? thats the simplest way to prevent all these wars.
He just don't want a civil war, I guess. And as the vote later revealed, many of the lords were still traditionalist.
Daemon, Caraxes + 2/3 of the westerosi nobility that wouldn't want their own inheritances disputed by their sisters. And as F&B clearly states, Daemon has a particular penchant for raising armies out of thin air (mf literally assembled a larger army than the Velaryons could muster during their war in the Stepstones).
Also, Rhaenys would only have Meleys on her side. The Old King couldn't fly into battle by 101 AC. Queen Alysanne was dead, meaning Silverwing was dormant. And as you'll find out, the Velaryon Fleet ain't shit when pitched against the Triarchy Fleet much less the Redwyne, Greyjoy and Lannister Fleets.
@@princepscivitatis4083 why would lords worry about being usurped by their sisters? Rhaenys is Viserys' cousin, and a daughter always comes before an uncle in westerosi succesion.
@@chrisrubin6445
You do know that the nobility voted 20:1 in favor of Viserys, right?
Rhaenys and Viserys are both grandchildren of Jaehaerys. Viserys' dad already bypassed Rhaenys in the line of succession after Jaehaerys invoked the 'Right of proximity' meaning Viserys was ahead of his cousin in the line of succession. If anything, Jaehaerys had only one obvious choice if he was ever going to arbitrarily rule in favor of either. But he was more prudent than that, so he summoned a Great Council and they made his choice for him, only it's not arbitrary but instead back by the collective voice of the realm. This is what singlehandedly ensured another 3 decades of peace even though Viserys was weak af and the Velaryons had more dragons than the Targs later down the line.
@@princepscivitatis4083 the nobility voting is literally meaningless, Jaehaerys should never have bypassed Rhaenys for Baelon in the first place, in westeros a daughter comes before an uncle.
The Queen of the Side-eye.
One important thing to point out: the monicker "Queen Who Never Was" happens to be an invention of Mushroom (Viserys's court fool) and it's not meant to be flattering at all.
It's something akin to Olenna Redwyne's monicker: "Queen of Thorns" (because she got spurned by Daeron Targaryen in favor of a male favorite of his).
Mushroom was a big meanie. 😋
Wait, when did this happen? I remember she was supposed to get to a Targaryen man but she pushed to go for her soon-to-be husband, a Tyrell, instead.
@@thalmoragent9344
That's Olenna's version of events, which is not even remotely true. Just an acute case of "The Fox and the Grapes."
What actually happened was that she was betrothed to Prince Daeron Targaryen, son of King Aegon V Targaryen. As such, she was set to be in the line of Targaryen succession i.e. a potential Queen. But Daeron was gay and after his siblings spurned their own arranged marriages, he did too. He rejected Olenna in favor of Ser Jeremy Norridge.
After that, Olenna seduced her own sister's betrothed (Lord Martyn Tyrell) and married him. But she was forever known as the "Queen of Thorns."
@@princepscivitatis4083
Ah, I see. So how did she get away with taking her sister's betrothed? I remember her telling the story but like, she broke a betrothal that easily?
Also, thanks for the info 👍🏾
My favourite character from house of dragons.
It's ridiculous how ppl thought the female can't carry the family name. Yet in the books we have Harry the Heir someone who is born of the female line of house Arryn and three generations removed from it yet will assume the name Arryn should Sweetrobin die without issue.
Yet ppl thought that if Rhaenys took the throne as Queen then her child would get the Velaryon name and the throne would change hands from Targaryen to Velaryon.
The Arryns had no other choices - if they'd had the equivalent of Viserys (and Daemon) then they would have been chosen as Robin's heirs by default.
@@andyh4518 women and descendants of the female line shouldn't have to be the your very last option just cuz the male line is exhausted/expired due Dumb fuckery or saying shit like "This isn't Dorne" at least, as far as we know, Dorne didn't collapse in on itself from succession disputes cuz of something as stupid as gender priority.
@@madambutterfly1997 feudalism and monarchies still suck, so it doest matter
@@madambutterfly1997 Of course it's idiotic, just like picking your leader based solely off birth order and parentage is idiotic. That's the world of Westeros.
@@Caramelo23606 Basically.
Rhaenys should have been Queen. She would have done a job as well done as Viserys if not better. And she will not be so easily influenced. Also, it would have solved some many future succession crisis.
In truth, the only reason there was ever a Succession Crisis was because Viserys was an idiot. House Targaryen has no one to blame but themselves
Do you know why the Old King summoned a Great Council? Because while the Velaryons were pushing Laenor's and Rhaenys' claim through the strength of arms, Daemon Targaryen took up the cause of his brother Viserys and responded in kind. Like he showed at the Stepstones War, Daemon had a penchant for raising armies out of thin air. And he would've been bolstered by all the Lords that felt threatened of a woman superceding a man (which, if the Council's vote is to be believed, is 20:1)
Naming Rhaenys would've caused the Dance right then and there.
Well all the Lords of Westeros disagreed
And viserys wife wouldn't have died, he would have not marry allicent and the kingdom wouldn't have fallen into a succession war
@@princepscivitatis4083 no one would question Jahaerys decision, he and his wife is extremely too popular to the smallfolk, noble uprising would've been futile, and not to mention the queen who never was already had a son, if anything a small uprising would've happened after Jahaerys passing, the action rhaenys could take is through show of power using meleys and stop the uprising, and I would've doubt anyone of Jahaerys grandchildren would scheme against his chosen heir, not even daemon I bet considering all daemon care for is just attentions and approval from his brother and whorehouses
Bravo once again. As always you deliver Sir. I am loving these character deep dives.
Rhaenys was such a boss. She had so much moxy
Big thank you for doing this video ❤️
Rhaenys and her father are literally cousins, and her mother is also her great aunt. Her great-grandmother is also her grandmother
I tried to make a complete family tree including all the houses that House Targaryen married into but just abandoned it as the tree is just a hot mess for this exact reason.
She would have been wonderful as queen
The maesters 100% chose Viserys due to him being easy to control. Rhaenys would have kept House Targaryen strong.
I do wonder how Rhaena* reacted about this.
Viserys wants to correct the mistake and he married his daughter to Laenor. But he wasn't ready to produce a son. He interested in males.
So, another hot take, this is gonna be a long one, and please don't behead me;
As much as I do agree Rhaenys did have good aptitude for rule, I've seen lots of comments mention Old Valyria and how there, the rules weren't as set such as Westeros, allowing both men and women to inherit. Some say it's tragic the Targaryens "forgot" this custom, but I have a rebuttal;
I don't think it's "tragic" the Valyrian families had to adapt to Westerosi customs.
They have their own customs that are still Valyrian but Aegon himself chose to adopt Westerosi customs so he'd be seen as a legitimate ruler. He made the banner for House Targaryen which wasn't around till he made it, he was anointed by the High Septon, and even before he invaded, it seems Aegon's followers saw him as the True ruler, and not the older Visenya. And Visenya herself had no objections to this, she just rolled with it.
Not to mention that House Velaryon was in Westeros even longer than the Targaryens. Marrying direct family members is a Valyrian thing, as is their language and the dragon-aesthetic, etc
But it's not really a "tragedy" that they've adapted to at least some customs of the Continent they rule. Not once before Rhaenyra has there been such an entitled Targaryen woman who was adamant at taking the Throne over her younger brother
Visenya didn't care, Aegon the Uncrowned and Jaeherys had an elder sister, Rhaella (or was it Rhaena?) but she didn't mind her younger brother Aegon being her husband and heir to the Throne after their father Aenys. Then Rhaenys made an argument about her being the heir after Aemon (who was also a younger brother to an older sister but she died pretty young) instead of her uncle Baelon.
So a Great Council was made, Viserys won over Rhaenys, and she let it go shortly after, and respected the decision (even more than Corlys himself did)
So when Rhaenyra comes to the Throne as Heir, and she's shown not to care about Duty or Tradition, then... yeah, there's a problem.
Granted, neither Rhaenyra or Aegon 2 (heck, not even Viserys himself) should've been inheritors or sat on the Throne. They all, in their own ways, suck. Aegon 2 arguably would've been more like Robert since he had a decent Council but even then, not the same or as effective. Aemond would've been OK but his disfigurement as a kid left him bitter towards Luke so, that emotion sadly got the better of him, but let's not get ahead of ourselves
The moral of the story?
When in doubt, pull a Jaehaerys and ask the Realm for help in succession crisis. Jaehaerys did it, and a future Targaryen King (Egg) was also made King due to a vote.
Rhaenyra wasnt just like inherently feeling entitled to the throne over her brothers, she was the only Targaryen female at that point who had a younger brother, while also being constantly reaffirmed as heir by the king. That was what was unprecedented, Rhaenyra only felt entitled to what her father the king wanted to leave to her. Meanwhile Jaehaerys, at the height of his political power decides to create decades of doubt and division by calling the great council that could really only long term lead to war, if the high lords feel entitled to choose their monarch. Jaehaerys if he was smart, should have just said Rhaenys is the heir, and then her children after her will take the Targaryen name. Its not that complicated, and you then have a dragon riding monarch, ruling wisely, with the largest navy in the realm at her back and a small army of dragons. The reason King Viserys naming his daughter as heir was such a huge problem was the fact that Jaehaerys had already screwed it up by calling the great council, and Viserys had exactly ZERO dragons to enforce his will, Rhaenys would initially have Vermithor, Silverwing, and Meleys, and eventually Seasmoke and Vhgar. Jaehaerys calling the great council seriously undermined royal authority and set the stage for centuries of war to follow.
@@chrisrubin6445 having the council be mandatory for choosing the king is the best option. The only way to improve on that would be to have a council determine the written laws for deciding the heir based on various scenarios. No lord could go against the council vote because that would be treason. Unless they had many houses who agreed with them and if that was to happen then they should have won the vote anyway.
Your moral of the story is defending westaros fucked up laws and traditions which is the completely wrong way to interpret this story line Gourge as gone time and time again that westaros laws and traditions are wrong they actively hurt everyone there system benefits nobody but the powerful and even then it hurts even them eventually so yes the targaryens abandoning there traditions was a tragedy because that led to there deaths andul customs killed house targaryen , aegon and other targaryens accepting the westaros sexism ways doesn't=that it isn't bad dear fucking God hotd created some rid crazy fans convincing themselves that westaros way of life is actually somehow not that bad and that it's fine that women shouldn't be allowed to rule that they should just be content to suffer in there fucked up system like seriously do you fucking hear yourself?
The great council literally created bad kings not good ones because the Nobel Lord's don't look for compatent rulers it's based purely on bias and personal agendas the the vary fact Thsr visarys failed as jeharyes successor should have clued you in on the fact that it was flawed from foundation .
@@chrisrubin6445
Even in our world, Monarchs still had to answer to the likes of say, the Pope or their own high Lords who still have a lot of their own power. Even Monarchs aren't God's, and if anything, it made the Monarchy more respected. Even Aegon bent to some Westerosi customs, he didn't say "screw you guys, I'm bringing full-on Valyrian identity on top of you First Men and Andals". He somewhat adapted.
If anything, my counter argument to your statement is that Jaeherys should've stuck with his succession decision and named Baelon's Eldest son, Viserys, the Heir right off the bat.
After Aemon died, Baelon was chosen as heir. Jaehaerys got such heavy flack from Rhaenys, Corlys, Alyssane, and Rhaenys' mother and uncle Baratheon that he called the Council to "prevent a war over his succession from happening". And... they basically all said "yeah man, you're right, Viserys should be the heir" and so Jaehaerys was all set
And that's not how that works, if Rhaenys was named heir and her kids would be named Targaryen, then shoot, what's the point, any lord who married a Targaryen woman before could just give their kids the Targaryen name, if that's what's happening. Remember Aemma? Her mother was Daella Targaryen. So, could the Arryns get away with naming her Aemma Targaryen?
Not to mention, if Rhaenys becomes queen who obviously other men in her family still around, then suddenly other citizens of Westeros could make arguments for ladies of other houses being heir, then you've got all these mini-civil wars over who gets to rule who and why.
All I'm saying is, how about you DON'T take a page out of Viserys' book and break centuries, actually no, over a *Millenia* of Ancient Tradition, customs and rules of succession with no other reason than "I say so". Your argument for Jaehaerys making the Monarchy weak doesn't work when you realize that the King before him was Maegor the Cruel. Now unless you wanna tell me Maegor was within his "royal rights" to do absolutely everything he did, then... I'd say even the Monarchy, as powerful and feared and respected as it should be, still needs SOME humility and wise decision making so as to best accommodate, well, everything they do
@@adefay2811
Yeah, either Jaehaerys should've made it law for there to always be a proper vote for Heir, or he should've made the Male Primogeniture not just tradition but straight up written law
It was an "unwritten rule" that all the Targaryens before him followed but maybe some things, obvious as they should be, just NEED to be stated since some (like Viserys) just can't seem to understand the importance of them.
Jaehaerys' only mistake was not using the Great Council to essentially reaffirm and solidify male Primogeniture. But hey, the Dance itself made sure not a single Targaryen woman sat the Throne, with Dany being a future rare case for obvious reasons; she's the last Targaryen (well, we'll see how Jon's parentage goes in the books, as well as this Young Griff I've been hearing about). But, well, she's the last confirmed Targaryen so, yeah that's how it goes
Another Great Council was called to make a succession choice as well, as mentioned above so, some guy looked back at the Dance and said "yeah, let's not pull a Viserys again", with or without Dragons. 😅
I’m just curious I thought Baratheon black hair was stronger than white hair. How are her kids white hair?
Leana and Leanor had white hair. Their father Corlys had white hair. Their mother has whitehaired grandparents, who were brother and sister. In the show, Rheanys has white hair. In the books she had black hair with silver streaks as a young woman. Seems to me that white hair is a recessive genetic trait. Just like red hair in our world. Both Corlys and Rheanys have Targaryen ancestry. Both are carriers so the chances of them having kids with white hair is very big. Which is why people were raising eyebrows at Rheanyra giving birth to three brownhaired boys, meaning that the brown hair must have come from Leanor...her cousin. who has white hair and shares the same whitehaired great grandparents...their childrens' brown hair is..... Strong. But not necessarily, stronger than white hair😉
@@roddo1955 thanks for the breakdown we forget that while targyean hair is recessive years of
Inbreeding makes it complex
The queen who never won more like 😂
Would the Dance have happened the way it did if the Rhaenys line ascended (Viserys would have acquiesced to the Great Council, Daemon would not have a leg to stand on at least then).
In this scenario, there is the chance that Viserys does not marry again or foist death on childbirth upon Aemma.
Would Corlys see advantage in wedding Laenor to Rhaenyra? If so, we have the same situation with the Strong boys, but with no real alternative to challenge them other than Daemon. The Daemon challenge is blunted if he marries Laena. Additionally, Laenor is king for the foreseeable future. Unlike Rhaenyra, he is male and therefore it is not the double whammy of being a woman heir apparent with a bastard heir apparent.
I genuinely doubt it. If Rhaenys was kept heir, Laena would be her heir since she was the eldest. Daemon would still marry her and Baela or Rhaena would be queen. I’d assume if this was the case, female heirs would no longer be taboo.
Do keep in mind, Jaehaerys changing Rhaenys to Baelon as heir showed Westeros females heirs don’t matter if there is a male. It’s why Otto and Alicent were to manipulate the court to make Aegon king.
@@glensaldivar3169 I completely forgot that in the books, Laena is older. In the show, it is unclear at best.
You are right.
@@glensaldivar3169Women do not inherit 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂