If you haven't watched the two main videos, check them out, they're both on the same playlist as this video. They took approximately 100 times longer to make than this video, and I promise that they're ACTUALLY good videos. Also thank you to everyone for getting this channel to over 10k. Much love! ruclips.net/video/8ujwMqnx-Uw/видео.html ruclips.net/video/Z9VaGPJMrUU/видео.html
Everything you say in this video is very valid but i really wanna mention that the team is doing their best to fix most of these issues. For example in a recent patch they changed it so that you cannot fall off of ledges by attacking except if you already stand right at the edge.
This is fantastic. I applaud the team, and I always go out of my way to mention the good in the game. I might have to hop back in to cover it’s redemption arc, and that makes me very happy!
The constant patching by the team is one of the reasons why I have such mixed opinions on this game. It’s a 70 dollar game that released as a buggy, laggy mess…but it’s being patched like how I think a 70 dollar game should be. Constant patching, attempts to fix everything in the game, adding new shit and revamping things the players don’t like. Tbh I really don’t like LOTF but I do wish the devs the best. It seems like they’re trying to learn from their mistakes, and I support this.
@@ryan.1990 oh you don't have to, the game is a 7/10 for me and i would never recommend it to anyone who is not a huge souls fan already but the amount of effort the devs are putting into it is commendable!
Have to confess I too was overwhelmed by the constant stream of mobs, especially in Umbral in addition to the couple snipers hidden in the mix. Then I farmed a whole lot and got OP. Ever since I loved the game more and more and I even look forward to the mobs. Another thing about the mobs is it makes farming easier. I'm looking forward to going to NG+0. Never on NG+1 or more unless they bring back the vestiges they removed. I'll even do another NG+0 when I finish the first NG+0. Waiting for the Christmas season to finish before restarting in case they drop another new quest which they may.
I'm sure FromSoft didn't intend to create a culture where video game criticisms can get written off with "git gud" but that's unfortunately the world we've ended up in
I just wanted to say thank you. This video actually helped me a lot. I bounced off of Lords of the Fallen, and it made me rather sad. It was one of those games I really really wanted to like. I know I am generally rather bad at souls likes, but most of the time, against all odds, I do eventually find something that actually works for me, but while I am no stranger to having to try over and over and over (I am a slow learner) in Lords of the Fallen I just did not feel good failing. But I was not quite able to put it in words the way you did.
The whole "fun is subjective" thing is basically my feeling on most Souls-likes in general. I never got far in any of the Dark Souls games, not because of the bosses or the difficulty, but because of the mobs and the jank in between. The very act of moving around within the world just felt tedious and I never felt challenged or engaged, I simply felt like I was wasting my time which led to me getting bored and going to play something "fun" instead.
Not to nitpick too much because this game is definitely plagued with problems, but IIRC both LOTF and the Dark Souls series don't let you fall off cliffs from the movement that's created by attack animations. However, rolling during lock-on is bugged in this game and sometimes the rolls send you into completely unintended directions. That's what causing the problems.
Lords of the Fallen (new) is mixed reviews on Steam PC. It's that gross mustard yellow color instead of that steam green. There's clearly something wrong with this game. It doesn't appear to be severe but it isn't mild either.
I made a post about how the tracking threw my character off cliffs multiple times to the point I had to stop playing the game. One of the responses was blaming me that I didn’t understand my weapon’s move set or momentum. I’ve been playing souls games since the first dark souls and many other souls-like and never have I ran into this problem before where I’m set off the ledge from the weapon’s move set or momentum. It’s a matter of how intense the enemy tracking is that I’m no longer in control of my character. I hope the devs fix this problem eventually
I believe they already fixed part of the issue...You won't go flying off the edge while attacking anymore unless you are standing right on the edge already...
For me personally, Lies of P is much harder. It's also exponentially more fun because of this. There's a satisfaction that accompanies beating something that was whipping my ass because of my own poor timing. LoTF seems to have confused difficulty for annoying asf. It's not very hard. The bosses aren't hard(at least they weren't the last time I played). Having a neverending spawn of shit enemies in a time limited space is annoying as all hell, not difficult. It's less satisfying when you can finally get past hordes of useless 1-2 hit scrub enemies that just keep coming, and more a sense of relief that it's finally done. I refuse to install it again until they fix all that irritating nonsense and annoyance to make it less reliant on dumping loads of cannon fodder on top of you. I'm positive there are folks who like that kinda stuff, and that's cool. Like you said, that's one of the best things about games is that not all games are for everyone. It's just not for me. I'll stick to the other ones that don't rely on cheap bullshit to kill you rather than your own mistakes.
I'm playing through it, at the same time as Lies of P, and Sekiro (recent steam autumn sale, still cost me $300 Canadian). I'm liking it, but the issues I have aren't brought up. I don't think anyone ever played a Souls game and said "Thank God for this bonfire, but I just really wish i could spend the souls i need to level up weapons, and stats to place these!". Without set bonfires, and how convoluted some of these areas are (Fen for example), I ran around in circles for a few hours, feeling miserable. Drip fed vigor being used up by too many things was making me angry today, when i got the Berserk sword and had to farm for 2 hours to use it. There was no way i would have had those stats naturally as i had no problems with any bosses, so didn't have to farm, and that's at least midgame. Those are my only real gripes with it. I think people are giving it too hard of a time, but i definitely agree it isn't perfect. Also, people have to stop comparing this to Lies of P, they're completely different games that have something in common. P would be my choice for game of the year, if those stupid rewards even meant anything. Seeing Spiderman Poo on there proved they don't.
This video explains how I feel about the game. The game just led to mostly frustration for me. The constant over saturation of enemies was enough to make me want to run through the level just to get to the boss fight, because that was the only thing I was enjoying. If I'm trying to avoid most of the games design, why am I even playing it? I would rush through the area, beat the boss, finish the game and for the most part, never play it again. I wanted to like the game and on occasion I would come back and try it again just to end up doing the same thing. So I really do hope they can get this game straightened out because it does have potential to be a really good game. I know they're making a valiant effort to fix these issues and I look forward to seeing how far they come with the game.
I'm actually bad at fps because I can't see a thing 5mts beyond me, and I love playing Halo Rach, or Doom Eternal. You don't really need to be good at something to enjoy it. What I didn't enjoy is playing Dark Souls 2 ON ICE, and slide to my target while I attack. Is not a bad game, just has DS2 syndrome, it doesn't amuse many people.
Loved your LoTF review man I wanted to love the game so much but nothing demonstrated this game was fundamentally unfinished than it being patched 25 damn times in less than a couple months of release. And that isn't really saying the devs are fixing things like Ii heard people say because all those issues could have been remedied with testing before release like falling off ledges and mob density in NG. Wanted to love this game but t is so half baked and full of jank I think it just needed another year in the oven to rethink vestige placement and boss difficulty (clearly again being reworked well after release too). And generally rebalance shit.
The fact that there's a decent chance half the people saying you just need to "git gud" to play LotF are the same ones crying for Lies of P to have an easier parry window because its too hard is not lost on me When a game is good but too hard, people don't call it bad. They call for it to get easier...like a lot of people did with Lies of P. When the game is bad they just go play something else...and have you heard anyone saying to make Lords of the Fallen easier? No, because making a single aspect of it easier doesn't fix the broken core design. It doesn't suddenly make it a good game. Lies of P for many was a good game that's too hard. Lords is just a bad game.
I thought about saying this in the video but it felt too anecdotal (and people always come out of the woodwork to criticize that stuff): I haven't seen anyone say that Lords was too hard for them. People defending the game with that argument seem to be pulling them out of the backrooms. I feel like if the game were hard, I'd have seen twitter threads like we saw with Armored Core 6 and Balteus, or Lies of P, but I just see people saying it's good, or it's bad, and moving on. You're 100% right in saying that a good game that's too hard isn't (almost ever) called a bad game.
This is your one biased opinion. One could make the argument that the trial and error moveset design of LoP bosses is an annoying timesink, while LoTf respects your time much more since its challenge comes from encounters you can deal with without necessarily dying and repeating.
You think it’s a bad game. That doesn’t make it a bad game it had problems on launch, but in case you need a reminder P put a demo out that revived a LOT of criticism and the devs did a lot of patching before the game came out.
@@christopherway2546 If you have to literally go back to prerelease content specifically put out to get feedback on mechanics to find issues with the mechanics that's telling on how polished the full game is. And the like two mechanics that had issues at launch were patched and fixed long before LotF could even fix glaring issues like attacks throwing you off ledges and killing you unfairly. Yall are super defensive because you know the general opinion is much more in favor of Lies of P I feel. And I bet if Lords of the Fallen had put a demo out and been willing to make needed changes before launch it would have launched in a much better state.
I'm confident in saying Lies of P is my game of the year, I just beat the corrupted parade master yesterday morning, and I'm looking at a 40 hour in game timer. That'll give you a barometer as to how mediocre I am at this genre. Just roadblock after roadblock, but I'm having such a lovely time. Adore these types of games to pieces. I respect your opinion on Lords, and am looking forward to trying it after P wraps up. I follow both games on social media, and...like if those patch notes are accurate, I wonder how the mobs were in it's original state compared to now. Yeesh.
The lotf team is giving this game unprecendented support (atleast in the souls like genre) like...they made this giant ass roadmap of huge changes that they are all gonna push out in 2023 including basically every critism that they CAN still fix. I really hope their next game is gonna be a great game!
I'm very impressed with both titles post launch support. Like actually taking constructive criticism to heart and putting the work in. It's very pleasing to read.
@@ShikiRyougi05LotF team are supporting the game but it’s not “unprecedented”. They are reacting to negative response/feedback, there was a lot wrong with the game, and the devs have been trying to recover the very large percentage of players not jiving with the game. The additional quest line patches and seasonal content were things that were already planned and on the content pipeline, and isn’t anything unheard or never seen before. They deserve praise for their response to criticism, especially when compared to the arrogance of AAA devs these days like Bethesda, but LotF devs aren’t doing anything Lies of P devs hadn’t done as well and neither of them were the first or last, that *should* be the bare minimum in the industry today, and for the most part it is, instances like Bethesda response to Starfield negativity, or EA’s complete abandonment of Wild Hearts early this year, instances like that are few and far between in the grand scheme of things. “Unprecedented” is a bit much though, that’s all, sorry for long response
I know alot of people are bashing on LotF, and it does have problems...But I've spent about 150hrs playing it and I have had a blast...I never had any issues with the enemy density, but that could just be because of the build I used or the way I play...My biggest issues with it are enemy variety and lack of movesets, for weapons and for enemies...I did have an issue with yeeting myself off of cliffs while attacking at first also...I do wish they would fix that, but after you get used to the movement it really wasn't a big deal...I think as long as you go in with an open mind there is a lot of fun to be had...The world design is absolutely amazing!
I'm honestly looking forward to forming my own opinion on the title, but I respect all these intelligent takes. I love discussions like these. I'm really digging the dark fantasy flavor they went with, that tone is my kinda jam.
I enjoyed LotF enough for 3 separate playthroughs. For a passionate team I was baffled by some of their design choices. They seem to be confused about what constitutes difficulty and challenge and what is simply punishing and inconvenient. The reduced bonfires in NG+ cycles is a great example. This adds zero difficulty as you can drop one where you like, it adds inconvenience getting around. E.g. when your finishing up quests and need to travel a lot. Try doing the umbral ending on NG+3 with no bonfires. Harder? No, frustratingly inconvenient though. Mob density does add a little challenge but it’s easily dealt with if you approach the encounter strategically. The trouble is that breaks the flow of the encounter, the Dark Souls dance if you like. It comes at a cost.
you didnt even mention the ranged enemies that you have to deal with on top of large group of enemies . You can deal with the large amount of enemies with positionning and some strategic play but the snipers makes it bad . Also no one mentionned this but its the only game that heavily punishes you for well using a game mechanic which is parry . Withered dmg plus stamina reduction ( the same punishement as if you failed a parry which results into a block ) and stamina reduction in a game that the stamina takes ages to recover is a punishement (99 stamina in Elden Ring takes 4 secs to recover , in LOTF it takes 10 sec so the difference is huge ) The enemy variety is no where to be found. The tutorial boss has been infinitly reskinned . Becomes a normal enemy at first and then you face him with a bell in his head and some radiance magic then you face him again as the first boss in the fief with frost dmg and he becomes a regular enemy too . And this goes also with the archer (the mistress of hounds ) which also becomes a normal enemy and then it has also frost variation in fief , you face another variation in the depths the poison archers . Skinstealer shares a lot of moves with the lightreaper . The hushed saint is the same fight as Tancred(1st phase) only tancred uses some magic( and this is the worst cuz both of them are important progression bosses that drop a remamberance ). Dervla shares a lot of moves in her first phase with crimson rector.(this is not all the reskins but the only ones i remember) .This is on top of reusing every mini boss as normal enemy. Soo reusing enemies was not enough, they reuse movesets too . But the community is busy commenting get gud to everyone creticizing a fondamentely broken game and arguing if the game is difficult or not as if its the most important thing BUT if you make a fast complex well designed bosses with a tight parry window(Lies of P) they call it unfair . Conclusion: plz stop listeneing and responding to negative comments and keep providing us with good elaborate content .
I'm just finishing my first and only playthrough. I liked the game overall, but am finding it quite mechanical and the end game variety of enemies is a bit of a let down. Running pure strength with Skin and Tooth, and since I put Loash into primary I'm simply unstoppable with my charge R2s. The main issues I have with the game though are in the technical aspects. The performance is atrocious, with frame stuttering prevalent from the mid game onwards especially. Many a time I've pushed a button that hasn't registered due to the terrible frame pacing, and died. The second major problem is with the lock on, which just does not work. Enemies have to be dead centre to the camera to consistently lock on, and even then most of the time it will lock to a distant object. Also I've been finding my lock on disappears for no reason whatsoever. It's appallingly implemented. The consistent (rull system) crashes at 3.00 umbral multiplier really get me on edge, but I'm glad to see that the developers have a save backup system to eliminate full blown save corruption.
mugthiefs opinion of Loftr would be better if he started playing it this past two weeks like I have. He would have objectively liked this game much more because they patched it and made adjustments. It plays like a darks souks game now and it not much different than them. The problem is the game studio released it too early. It ran poorly and they did not get enough tester feedback. It should have been delayed until next year. Objectively speaking, loftr is the same as DS games. If Loftr was released before Elden Ring, then it would be highly praised. ER raised the bar higher for all souls games and anything after ER will be compared because of bias.
I really tried to like LOTF but I agree, it just isn't fun. I played DS1, DS1 and Elden Ring through many times to 100% completion (not you DS2!) but I could not finish this game. I could not put my finger on it myself but I tried and tried to love this game as it looks great and it should be fun.... but I had to admit it was just an utter chore to play for me personally and I wasn't having fun like I did with souls games.
The "git gud" argument is almost always an excuse to hide jarring issues within a bad game and it's a flawed argument considering it implies that harder = better...Which is not even difficult to prove otherwise. This is, in fact, at the core of a huge misconception in people which is to think that difficult games only serve the purpose to be difficult. "Oh, you like Dark souls," I hear say around me. "You must be a masochist who like pain and frustration." No...Like anybody, I hate pain and frustration, but some developers manage to create challenges that are both engaging and fun. And that's a rare treat. Making a difficult game is difficult. It's extremely difficult because you have to find the sweet spot between offering a challenge while making sure your game is well designed and well balanced, and that every failure from the player feel his own fault (the result of him/her doing something wrong) as opposed to some random BS you have no control over. Lies of P is a great example of a well designed difficult game (the toughest game I've played this year, in fact) but I enjoyed every second of it because it was fun and well crafted). Lords of the fallen did not leave me the same impression...
If the game was fun, you would WANT to get good. LotF is simply unfun IMO. The main reason is the execution of umbral realm. You're forced into umbral to progress in most areas, but when you are in umbral you are literally swarmed vonstantly so you cant focus on exploration, to see where to go. This meant i spent half of the early game running in circles trying to see where the game wants me to go The combat wasnt hard, figuring out where to go was
Seeing release footage vs. playing it now - I can definitely see where they heard people and reduced enemy density. They also made it so attacks don't make you fall off a ledge anymore. They've patched so much in so short a time, bummer for them it didn't release/review that way. It may just be too late and they may have just shot themselves in the foot
U have to run a hybrid build when playing thats what makes it so different than souls games a melee only build isnt really viable unlike fromsoft any build can work. I had fun but i understood if its not your cup of tea. Good video 👍
I was nodding in agreement for the first half of the video but somewhere around the 8 minutes or so part of the video I just started laughing. The whiplash of hearing you talk about how people can find fun in different ways followed by essentially saying that because there’s too many enemies and situations where dodge spamming won’t save you from taking a hit and how you fall off ledges if you’re not careful etc. and acting like NOW we’re talking about how these things are objectively not fun. I mean you just talked about how you learned from your mistakes in dark souls and it was fun and then described the same thing in LotF as “not fun”. You mention the original dark souls experience but I feel like you actually forgot. You’re the exact same person that was angrily ranting about the artificial difficulty in Dark Souls back then. I think you’ve just grown cynical and LotF is just the awkward new guy that you won’t invite into your friend group. Yes this game would be very difficult to do a no-hit run in and not because of the bosses. So what? The no-hit streamers can skip this one. Who cares. The game was pretty decent, I don’t rate it higher than any of the Fromsoft releases, but that doesn’t mean it was a failure in my eyes. They did a pretty good job making a souls game and people just need to chill.
Exactly, this is where OP lost me. The real issue is that the game's systems can overlap in unexpected ways, and create sudden (jarring?) difficulty spikes. This is what OP is talking about when he says things like "objectively unfun". I happen to enjoy the difficulty spikes because they force me to improvise and change my playstyle in order to survive a tough spot. If you can't do that then game is going to feel "unfair". The problem is that most of the game IS pretty easy, and most players will naturally settle into a particular playstyle. Then, when a difficulty spike emerges, they get caught unprepared and suddenly the game is "unfair" and "broken". But the reality is that the game DOES actually give you the tools to deal with situations, the rally mechanic is extremely forgiving, and perfect parry + riposte gives you i-frames. And once again this gets back to a skill issue. I will say that perhaps the game does a poor job at training the player in dealing with difficulty spikes. I think maybe this is where the disconnect is coming from. The game lures you into a sense of complacency by being a too easy, then blindsides you with a difficulty spike. I sincerely hope OP reads these comments. While I agree with many of his points, one of his major takeaways is fundamentally flawed.
Getting caught unprepared is not unfair. It's when the game is designed to surprise you, and as a result you are put into a situation where both your agency as a player, and the rules the game has taught you no longer apply. As I said in the video, if you know what's coming and prepare for it, there are no difficulty spikes. But it's designed around those happening on your first playthrough. There's nothing wrong with forcing people into a situation where they have no agency and you have to bite the bullet, take the resource cost, and choose a way out. And these situations, much like Lords, force people into situations where the rules are very broken. Much like I cited Fear and Hunger which does this constantly, as do many other more experimental games. Some highly beloved, like Undertale for example, which does this to shock the player, and RE7 is another great example of this. But they are always, by design, unfun. It's just that Lords doesn't remove your agency because of a grand design, but because it has encounters and systems that lead to this conclusion, sometimes by fault of the player, and other times by absolutely no fault of the player. And if that weren't the case, they wouldn't be patching those.
I just don’t have the same recollection about areas of the game making me feel as though I had no agency on the situations I ended up in or the rules no longer applied. Like you said in your video, multiple enemies might be on you at the same time and dodging would no longer work because their attacks would be coming at you at different times… I mean you just described a typical Dark Souls situation to me. You don’t have infinite I-frames for good reason, so I don’t get what the problem is. There were areas in Dark Souls that got the same reaction from players like Sens Fortress or Blight town to name a couple. Just because Hexworks patches some things like enemy density doesn’t mean anything to me other than the fact that Hexworks is being unusually active with the community compared to other studios and making an effort to make more of us happy. There were a ton of those “artificial difficulty” critique videos for Dark Souls in the past and those uploaders also got the “git gud” trolls in the comments.
Such a strange take, you suck at a game, therefore you don't like it. There are games I suck at like RTS games but I still love them and have fun playing them. And as I get older, I suck at more and more at games, but gaming is still fun.
Git Gud (brb, need to go watch the video) I have loved FROM, from the moment I first saw the opening cut scene of Demon Souls. I was truly saddened that Xbox users would not have the chance to enjoy that masterpiece. I have played hundreds of hours on each of them. I am gud enuf, though I genuinely have zero chance of finishing Sekiro, and I don't care for pvp. I love these games, but I don't think any of them are particularly fun. Intriguing yes, fun, not so much. ...and to this day, I get freaked out when hearing the chime of a triangle. (Thx Tower of Latria) I really wanted Lords of the Fallen to be as gud as it looked, but apparently that's not the case. It's tough for other developers to capture FROM's magic. I'll wait for it to end up on PS+
Ever since I started playing this game and finished it all the way through I’ve been so confused how people find this game fun. Getting hounded by dogs, archers, 100 fodder mobs and a miniboss in nearly every encounter is not fun. When I first started I noticed this immediately and figured it would get better, it did not. The game is annoying for the sake of being annoying, rather than being difficult but rewarding as a souls/soul like should be. The fans of this game are also insufferable, instead of taking criticism and genuinely thinking about it, they just say “skill issue” or “get good”. The game isn’t hard to play, it’s annoying and inconvenient to play, and I still don’t understand how so many are willing to die on a hill to defend it.
If you haven't watched the two main videos, check them out, they're both on the same playlist as this video. They took approximately 100 times longer to make than this video, and I promise that they're ACTUALLY good videos. Also thank you to everyone for getting this channel to over 10k. Much love!
ruclips.net/video/8ujwMqnx-Uw/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/Z9VaGPJMrUU/видео.html
Everything you say in this video is very valid but i really wanna mention that the team is doing their best to fix most of these issues.
For example in a recent patch they changed it so that you cannot fall off of ledges by attacking except if you already stand right at the edge.
This is fantastic. I applaud the team, and I always go out of my way to mention the good in the game. I might have to hop back in to cover it’s redemption arc, and that makes me very happy!
The constant patching by the team is one of the reasons why I have such mixed opinions on this game. It’s a 70 dollar game that released as a buggy, laggy mess…but it’s being patched like how I think a 70 dollar game should be. Constant patching, attempts to fix everything in the game, adding new shit and revamping things the players don’t like.
Tbh I really don’t like LOTF but I do wish the devs the best. It seems like they’re trying to learn from their mistakes, and I support this.
Don't care
Not buying it
@@ryan.1990 oh you don't have to, the game is a 7/10 for me and i would never recommend it to anyone who is not a huge souls fan already but the amount of effort the devs are putting into it is commendable!
I honestly might be the few that prefer it over Lies of P. And who knows perhaps LoTF might get a redemption like No Man's Sky
Have to confess I too was overwhelmed by the constant stream of mobs, especially in Umbral in addition to the couple snipers hidden in the mix. Then I farmed a whole lot and got OP. Ever since I loved the game more and more and I even look forward to the mobs. Another thing about the mobs is it makes farming easier. I'm looking forward to going to NG+0. Never on NG+1 or more unless they bring back the vestiges they removed. I'll even do another NG+0 when I finish the first NG+0.
Waiting for the Christmas season to finish before restarting in case they drop another new quest which they may.
I'm sure FromSoft didn't intend to create a culture where video game criticisms can get written off with "git gud" but that's unfortunately the world we've ended up in
I just wanted to say thank you. This video actually helped me a lot. I bounced off of Lords of the Fallen, and it made me rather sad. It was one of those games I really really wanted to like. I know I am generally rather bad at souls likes, but most of the time, against all odds, I do eventually find something that actually works for me, but while I am no stranger to having to try over and over and over (I am a slow learner) in Lords of the Fallen I just did not feel good failing. But I was not quite able to put it in words the way you did.
The whole "fun is subjective" thing is basically my feeling on most Souls-likes in general.
I never got far in any of the Dark Souls games, not because of the bosses or the difficulty, but because of the mobs and the jank in between. The very act of moving around within the world just felt tedious and I never felt challenged or engaged, I simply felt like I was wasting my time which led to me getting bored and going to play something "fun" instead.
this,feels like im going crazy.All of a sudden its bad when lotf does it
Not to nitpick too much because this game is definitely plagued with problems, but IIRC both LOTF and the Dark Souls series don't let you fall off cliffs from the movement that's created by attack animations. However, rolling during lock-on is bugged in this game and sometimes the rolls send you into completely unintended directions. That's what causing the problems.
Recent patch notes explicitly patched being able to fall due to attack animations in LOTF, which have a lot more movement than in Dark Souls.
@@MugthiefHmm good to know
Lords of the Fallen (new) is mixed reviews on Steam PC. It's that gross mustard yellow color instead of that steam green.
There's clearly something wrong with this game.
It doesn't appear to be severe but it isn't mild either.
I made a post about how the tracking threw my character off cliffs multiple times to the point I had to stop playing the game. One of the responses was blaming me that I didn’t understand my weapon’s move set or momentum. I’ve been playing souls games since the first dark souls and many other souls-like and never have I ran into this problem before where I’m set off the ledge from the weapon’s move set or momentum. It’s a matter of how intense the enemy tracking is that I’m no longer in control of my character. I hope the devs fix this problem eventually
I believe they already fixed part of the issue...You won't go flying off the edge while attacking anymore unless you are standing right on the edge already...
@@brucepreston3927 good to hear
For me personally, Lies of P is much harder. It's also exponentially more fun because of this. There's a satisfaction that accompanies beating something that was whipping my ass because of my own poor timing.
LoTF seems to have confused difficulty for annoying asf. It's not very hard. The bosses aren't hard(at least they weren't the last time I played). Having a neverending spawn of shit enemies in a time limited space is annoying as all hell, not difficult. It's less satisfying when you can finally get past hordes of useless 1-2 hit scrub enemies that just keep coming, and more a sense of relief that it's finally done.
I refuse to install it again until they fix all that irritating nonsense and annoyance to make it less reliant on dumping loads of cannon fodder on top of you.
I'm positive there are folks who like that kinda stuff, and that's cool. Like you said, that's one of the best things about games is that not all games are for everyone.
It's just not for me. I'll stick to the other ones that don't rely on cheap bullshit to kill you rather than your own mistakes.
I'm playing through it, at the same time as Lies of P, and Sekiro (recent steam autumn sale, still cost me $300 Canadian). I'm liking it, but the issues I have aren't brought up. I don't think anyone ever played a Souls game and said "Thank God for this bonfire, but I just really wish i could spend the souls i need to level up weapons, and stats to place these!". Without set bonfires, and how convoluted some of these areas are (Fen for example), I ran around in circles for a few hours, feeling miserable. Drip fed vigor being used up by too many things was making me angry today, when i got the Berserk sword and had to farm for 2 hours to use it. There was no way i would have had those stats naturally as i had no problems with any bosses, so didn't have to farm, and that's at least midgame. Those are my only real gripes with it. I think people are giving it too hard of a time, but i definitely agree it isn't perfect. Also, people have to stop comparing this to Lies of P, they're completely different games that have something in common. P would be my choice for game of the year, if those stupid rewards even meant anything. Seeing Spiderman Poo on there proved they don't.
This video explains how I feel about the game. The game just led to mostly frustration for me. The constant over saturation of enemies was enough to make me want to run through the level just to get to the boss fight, because that was the only thing I was enjoying. If I'm trying to avoid most of the games design, why am I even playing it? I would rush through the area, beat the boss, finish the game and for the most part, never play it again. I wanted to like the game and on occasion I would come back and try it again just to end up doing the same thing. So I really do hope they can get this game straightened out because it does have potential to be a really good game. I know they're making a valiant effort to fix these issues and I look forward to seeing how far they come with the game.
I'm actually bad at fps because I can't see a thing 5mts beyond me, and I love playing Halo Rach, or Doom Eternal. You don't really need to be good at something to enjoy it. What I didn't enjoy is playing Dark Souls 2 ON ICE, and slide to my target while I attack. Is not a bad game, just has DS2 syndrome, it doesn't amuse many people.
Loved your LoTF review man I wanted to love the game so much but nothing demonstrated this game was fundamentally unfinished than it being patched 25 damn times in less than a couple months of release. And that isn't really saying the devs are fixing things like Ii heard people say because all those issues could have been remedied with testing before release like falling off ledges and mob density in NG.
Wanted to love this game but t is so half baked and full of jank I think it just needed another year in the oven to rethink vestige placement and boss difficulty (clearly again being reworked well after release too). And generally rebalance shit.
The fact that there's a decent chance half the people saying you just need to "git gud" to play LotF are the same ones crying for Lies of P to have an easier parry window because its too hard is not lost on me
When a game is good but too hard, people don't call it bad. They call for it to get easier...like a lot of people did with Lies of P. When the game is bad they just go play something else...and have you heard anyone saying to make Lords of the Fallen easier? No, because making a single aspect of it easier doesn't fix the broken core design. It doesn't suddenly make it a good game. Lies of P for many was a good game that's too hard. Lords is just a bad game.
I thought about saying this in the video but it felt too anecdotal (and people always come out of the woodwork to criticize that stuff): I haven't seen anyone say that Lords was too hard for them. People defending the game with that argument seem to be pulling them out of the backrooms. I feel like if the game were hard, I'd have seen twitter threads like we saw with Armored Core 6 and Balteus, or Lies of P, but I just see people saying it's good, or it's bad, and moving on. You're 100% right in saying that a good game that's too hard isn't (almost ever) called a bad game.
This is your one biased opinion. One could make the argument that the trial and error moveset design of LoP bosses is an annoying timesink, while LoTf respects your time much more since its challenge comes from encounters you can deal with without necessarily dying and repeating.
You think it’s a bad game. That doesn’t make it a bad game it had problems on launch, but in case you need a reminder P put a demo out that revived a LOT of criticism and the devs did a lot of patching before the game came out.
@@lumendrake2265 the game that won't even let you explore half of it without you constantly losing souls respects my time ?
@@christopherway2546 If you have to literally go back to prerelease content specifically put out to get feedback on mechanics to find issues with the mechanics that's telling on how polished the full game is. And the like two mechanics that had issues at launch were patched and fixed long before LotF could even fix glaring issues like attacks throwing you off ledges and killing you unfairly. Yall are super defensive because you know the general opinion is much more in favor of Lies of P I feel.
And I bet if Lords of the Fallen had put a demo out and been willing to make needed changes before launch it would have launched in a much better state.
I'm confident in saying Lies of P is my game of the year, I just beat the corrupted parade master yesterday morning, and I'm looking at a 40 hour in game timer. That'll give you a barometer as to how mediocre I am at this genre. Just roadblock after roadblock, but I'm having such a lovely time. Adore these types of games to pieces.
I respect your opinion on Lords, and am looking forward to trying it after P wraps up. I follow both games on social media, and...like if those patch notes are accurate, I wonder how the mobs were in it's original state compared to now. Yeesh.
The lotf team is giving this game unprecendented support (atleast in the souls like genre) like...they made this giant ass roadmap of huge changes that they are all gonna push out in 2023 including basically every critism that they CAN still fix.
I really hope their next game is gonna be a great game!
I'm very impressed with both titles post launch support. Like actually taking constructive criticism to heart and putting the work in. It's very pleasing to read.
@@ShikiRyougi05LotF team are supporting the game but it’s not “unprecedented”. They are reacting to negative response/feedback, there was a lot wrong with the game, and the devs have been trying to recover the very large percentage of players not jiving with the game.
The additional quest line patches and seasonal content were things that were already planned and on the content pipeline, and isn’t anything unheard or never seen before.
They deserve praise for their response to criticism, especially when compared to the arrogance of AAA devs these days like Bethesda, but LotF devs aren’t doing anything Lies of P devs hadn’t done as well and neither of them were the first or last, that *should* be the bare minimum in the industry today, and for the most part it is, instances like Bethesda response to Starfield negativity, or EA’s complete abandonment of Wild Hearts early this year, instances like that are few and far between in the grand scheme of things. “Unprecedented” is a bit much though, that’s all, sorry for long response
I know alot of people are bashing on LotF, and it does have problems...But I've spent about 150hrs playing it and I have had a blast...I never had any issues with the enemy density, but that could just be because of the build I used or the way I play...My biggest issues with it are enemy variety and lack of movesets, for weapons and for enemies...I did have an issue with yeeting myself off of cliffs while attacking at first also...I do wish they would fix that, but after you get used to the movement it really wasn't a big deal...I think as long as you go in with an open mind there is a lot of fun to be had...The world design is absolutely amazing!
I'm honestly looking forward to forming my own opinion on the title, but I respect all these intelligent takes. I love discussions like these. I'm really digging the dark fantasy flavor they went with, that tone is my kinda jam.
I enjoyed LotF enough for 3 separate playthroughs. For a passionate team I was baffled by some of their design choices. They seem to be confused about what constitutes difficulty and challenge and what is simply punishing and inconvenient.
The reduced bonfires in NG+ cycles is a great example. This adds zero difficulty as you can drop one where you like, it adds inconvenience getting around. E.g. when your finishing up quests and need to travel a lot. Try doing the umbral ending on NG+3 with no bonfires. Harder? No, frustratingly inconvenient though.
Mob density does add a little challenge but it’s easily dealt with if you approach the encounter strategically. The trouble is that breaks the flow of the encounter, the Dark Souls dance if you like. It comes at a cost.
you didnt even mention the ranged enemies that you have to deal with on top of large group of enemies . You can deal with the large amount of enemies with positionning and some strategic play but the snipers makes it bad .
Also no one mentionned this but its the only game that heavily punishes you for well using a game mechanic which is parry . Withered dmg plus stamina reduction ( the same punishement as if you failed a parry which results into a block ) and stamina reduction in a game that the stamina takes ages to recover is a punishement (99 stamina in Elden Ring takes 4 secs to recover , in LOTF it takes 10 sec so the difference is huge )
The enemy variety is no where to be found. The tutorial boss has been infinitly reskinned . Becomes a normal enemy at first and then you face him with a bell in his head and some radiance magic then you face him again as the first boss in the fief with frost dmg and he becomes a regular enemy too . And this goes also with the archer (the mistress of hounds ) which also becomes a normal enemy and then it has also frost variation in fief , you face another variation in the depths the poison archers . Skinstealer shares a lot of moves with the lightreaper . The hushed saint is the same fight as Tancred(1st phase) only tancred uses some magic( and this is the worst cuz both of them are important progression bosses that drop a remamberance ). Dervla shares a lot of moves in her first phase with crimson rector.(this is not all the reskins but the only ones i remember) .This is on top of reusing every mini boss as normal enemy.
Soo reusing enemies was not enough, they reuse movesets too .
But the community is busy commenting get gud to everyone creticizing a fondamentely broken game and arguing if the game is difficult or not as if its the most important thing BUT if you make a fast complex well designed bosses with a tight parry window(Lies of P) they call it unfair .
Conclusion: plz stop listeneing and responding to negative comments and keep providing us with good elaborate content .
I'm just finishing my first and only playthrough. I liked the game overall, but am finding it quite mechanical and the end game variety of enemies is a bit of a let down. Running pure strength with Skin and Tooth, and since I put Loash into primary I'm simply unstoppable with my charge R2s.
The main issues I have with the game though are in the technical aspects. The performance is atrocious, with frame stuttering prevalent from the mid game onwards especially. Many a time I've pushed a button that hasn't registered due to the terrible frame pacing, and died.
The second major problem is with the lock on, which just does not work. Enemies have to be dead centre to the camera to consistently lock on, and even then most of the time it will lock to a distant object. Also I've been finding my lock on disappears for no reason whatsoever. It's appallingly implemented.
The consistent (rull system) crashes at 3.00 umbral multiplier really get me on edge, but I'm glad to see that the developers have a save backup system to eliminate full blown save corruption.
mugthiefs opinion of Loftr would be better if he started playing it this past two weeks like I have. He would have objectively liked this game much more because they patched it and made adjustments. It plays like a darks souks game now and it not much different than them.
The problem is the game studio released it too early. It ran poorly and they did not get enough tester feedback. It should have been delayed until next year. Objectively speaking, loftr is the same as DS games.
If Loftr was released before Elden Ring, then it would be highly praised. ER raised the bar higher for all souls games and anything after ER will be compared because of bias.
This isn't a finished product period.
It plays pretty finished right now actually.
people say git gud can't make a valid argument so they push that narrative, when it is them that's bad
I really tried to like LOTF but I agree, it just isn't fun. I played DS1, DS1 and Elden Ring through many times to 100% completion (not you DS2!) but I could not finish this game. I could not put my finger on it myself but I tried and tried to love this game as it looks great and it should be fun.... but I had to admit it was just an utter chore to play for me personally and I wasn't having fun like I did with souls games.
The "git gud" argument is almost always an excuse to hide jarring issues within a bad game and it's a flawed argument considering it implies that harder = better...Which is not even difficult to prove otherwise.
This is, in fact, at the core of a huge misconception in people which is to think that difficult games only serve the purpose to be difficult. "Oh, you like Dark souls," I hear say around me. "You must be a masochist who like pain and frustration."
No...Like anybody, I hate pain and frustration, but some developers manage to create challenges that are both engaging and fun.
And that's a rare treat. Making a difficult game is difficult. It's extremely difficult because you have to find the sweet spot between offering a challenge while making sure your game is well designed and well balanced, and that every failure from the player feel his own fault (the result of him/her doing something wrong) as opposed to some random BS you have no control over.
Lies of P is a great example of a well designed difficult game (the toughest game I've played this year, in fact) but I enjoyed every second of it because it was fun and well crafted).
Lords of the fallen did not leave me the same impression...
If the game was fun, you would WANT to get good. LotF is simply unfun IMO. The main reason is the execution of umbral realm. You're forced into umbral to progress in most areas, but when you are in umbral you are literally swarmed vonstantly so you cant focus on exploration, to see where to go. This meant i spent half of the early game running in circles trying to see where the game wants me to go
The combat wasnt hard, figuring out where to go was
Seeing release footage vs. playing it now - I can definitely see where they heard people and reduced enemy density. They also made it so attacks don't make you fall off a ledge anymore. They've patched so much in so short a time, bummer for them it didn't release/review that way. It may just be too late and they may have just shot themselves in the foot
Broh, it just seems to me that you are just bad at having fun. Maybe you need to get gud at having fun.
Lotf was easy, and no fun. End of story
U have to run a hybrid build when playing thats what makes it so different than souls games a melee only build isnt really viable unlike fromsoft any build can work. I had fun but i understood if its not your cup of tea. Good video 👍
I was nodding in agreement for the first half of the video but somewhere around the 8 minutes or so part of the video I just started laughing. The whiplash of hearing you talk about how people can find fun in different ways followed by essentially saying that because there’s too many enemies and situations where dodge spamming won’t save you from taking a hit and how you fall off ledges if you’re not careful etc. and acting like NOW we’re talking about how these things are objectively not fun. I mean you just talked about how you learned from your mistakes in dark souls and it was fun and then described the same thing in LotF as “not fun”. You mention the original dark souls experience but I feel like you actually forgot. You’re the exact same person that was angrily ranting about the artificial difficulty in Dark Souls back then. I think you’ve just grown cynical and LotF is just the awkward new guy that you won’t invite into your friend group. Yes this game would be very difficult to do a no-hit run in and not because of the bosses. So what? The no-hit streamers can skip this one. Who cares. The game was pretty decent, I don’t rate it higher than any of the Fromsoft releases, but that doesn’t mean it was a failure in my eyes. They did a pretty good job making a souls game and people just need to chill.
Exactly, this is where OP lost me. The real issue is that the game's systems can overlap in unexpected ways, and create sudden (jarring?) difficulty spikes. This is what OP is talking about when he says things like "objectively unfun". I happen to enjoy the difficulty spikes because they force me to improvise and change my playstyle in order to survive a tough spot. If you can't do that then game is going to feel "unfair". The problem is that most of the game IS pretty easy, and most players will naturally settle into a particular playstyle. Then, when a difficulty spike emerges, they get caught unprepared and suddenly the game is "unfair" and "broken". But the reality is that the game DOES actually give you the tools to deal with situations, the rally mechanic is extremely forgiving, and perfect parry + riposte gives you i-frames. And once again this gets back to a skill issue. I will say that perhaps the game does a poor job at training the player in dealing with difficulty spikes. I think maybe this is where the disconnect is coming from. The game lures you into a sense of complacency by being a too easy, then blindsides you with a difficulty spike. I sincerely hope OP reads these comments. While I agree with many of his points, one of his major takeaways is fundamentally flawed.
Getting caught unprepared is not unfair. It's when the game is designed to surprise you, and as a result you are put into a situation where both your agency as a player, and the rules the game has taught you no longer apply. As I said in the video, if you know what's coming and prepare for it, there are no difficulty spikes. But it's designed around those happening on your first playthrough. There's nothing wrong with forcing people into a situation where they have no agency and you have to bite the bullet, take the resource cost, and choose a way out. And these situations, much like Lords, force people into situations where the rules are very broken. Much like I cited Fear and Hunger which does this constantly, as do many other more experimental games. Some highly beloved, like Undertale for example, which does this to shock the player, and RE7 is another great example of this. But they are always, by design, unfun. It's just that Lords doesn't remove your agency because of a grand design, but because it has encounters and systems that lead to this conclusion, sometimes by fault of the player, and other times by absolutely no fault of the player. And if that weren't the case, they wouldn't be patching those.
I just don’t have the same recollection about areas of the game making me feel as though I had no agency on the situations I ended up in or the rules no longer applied. Like you said in your video, multiple enemies might be on you at the same time and dodging would no longer work because their attacks would be coming at you at different times… I mean you just described a typical Dark Souls situation to me. You don’t have infinite I-frames for good reason, so I don’t get what the problem is. There were areas in Dark Souls that got the same reaction from players like Sens Fortress or Blight town to name a couple. Just because Hexworks patches some things like enemy density doesn’t mean anything to me other than the fact that Hexworks is being unusually active with the community compared to other studios and making an effort to make more of us happy. There were a ton of those “artificial difficulty” critique videos for Dark Souls in the past and those uploaders also got the “git gud” trolls in the comments.
Oh I know what to do! just...git...gud...😂
It’s definitely not the “easiest souls game out there”. Elden Ring is easier. Sekiro is easier. Dark Souls 1-2-3 is easier.
Such a strange take, you suck at a game, therefore you don't like it. There are games I suck at like RTS games but I still love them and have fun playing them. And as I get older, I suck at more and more at games, but gaming is still fun.
I have more fun playing lords than Lop. Honestly Lop is not that great it’s just fine I found it boring and the boss fight sucked
Git Gud (brb, need to go watch the video)
I have loved FROM, from the moment I first saw the opening cut scene of Demon Souls. I was truly saddened that Xbox users would not have the chance to enjoy that masterpiece. I have played hundreds of hours on each of them. I am gud enuf, though I genuinely have zero chance of finishing Sekiro, and I don't care for pvp.
I love these games, but I don't think any of them are particularly fun. Intriguing yes, fun, not so much.
...and to this day, I get freaked out when hearing the chime of a triangle. (Thx Tower of Latria)
I really wanted Lords of the Fallen to be as gud as it looked, but apparently that's not the case. It's tough for other developers to capture FROM's magic.
I'll wait for it to end up on PS+
how can you love souls games but not find them fun wth 😅
@@victorprati7908 intriguing and fascinating, do not require fun.
Sekiro is insanely good once you grasp the combat system. Yes, the learning curve is very steep.
It's not difficult
It's just bad
Ever since I started playing this game and finished it all the way through I’ve been so confused how people find this game fun. Getting hounded by dogs, archers, 100 fodder mobs and a miniboss in nearly every encounter is not fun. When I first started I noticed this immediately and figured it would get better, it did not. The game is annoying for the sake of being annoying, rather than being difficult but rewarding as a souls/soul like should be.
The fans of this game are also insufferable, instead of taking criticism and genuinely thinking about it, they just say “skill issue” or “get good”. The game isn’t hard to play, it’s annoying and inconvenient to play, and I still don’t understand how so many are willing to die on a hill to defend it.
git gud