My technique is even more superior. I actually nock the bow that i nocked the arrow on onto an even larger bow. Upon loosing the arrow, I immediately loose the small bow, and only then i would throw the larger bow to the target, followed by a flying kick. This technique causes at least 4 times the damage to the target. This technique was very popular in ancient times all over the world but somehow lost in history. It is not mention anywhere. Thanks to me, archery can now return to its original and proper form.
Guys,guys,guys...MY technique is the superiourest. When I shoot, my arrow and my bow actually don't move at all. They stay, on point, tensed, menacing - but I AM launched through the sky, screaming and cursing (and sometimes, peeing) racing towards the enemy, utterly terrifying absolutely everybody. Myself included. Ha.
We do exactly this in Kyudo. The bow is drawn and shot using 2/3 push with the left arm and pulled 1/3 by the right arm infact. Release is created by this continual pushing with the left and pulling with the right, until a simultaneous release at full draw - or explosion in both directions along the line of the arrow to give the arrow more power and speed. Nice to see that it is so in Arab archery
I've watched Armin's explanation a while ago, and while he might be an expert in his field, I have to point out two problems I see in his video. One - he claims that Mediterranean draw is only a few hundred years old - which contradicts much evidence suggesting that it was used since at least ancient times. I suppose what he meant is that sport archery, the style used in Victorian times by the British, which now took the form of olympic/freestyle recurve, is a young form of archery, and that might be true. But just because sport archery uses Mediterranean draw, doesn't mean it's the only style that does. And secondly, his explanation of momentum has nothing to do with the concept of momentum from physics. I'm not sure if he's referring to some other definition of momentum (he referenced martial arts, so maybe there is some other meaning of momentum in some martial arts?), but from a physics point of view, moving the arrow backwards just prior to release does not increase the momentum understood as mass times velocity. Since velocity is a vector, and what we want is forward velocity, moving the arrow backwards would be negative momentum, and not helpful at all in this case. There are a few other reasons why khatra works, such as being able to use a heavier draw weight if you do a dynamic release, and the higher efficiency of bow limbs when they are drawn back for only a brief moment (the longer the time spent in full draw, the less elastic bow limbs get). That's my understanding at least. I'm better at physics than at practical archery.
Doing a flip (forward and to the side) frees the arrow from having to wrap around the bow handle and makes it fly out straight from the string. Doing a bit more expansion in the last instant prior to release (by pulling the arrow slightly back and pushing the bow slightly forward) is a simple spring effect. The bow/string is - a spring. If you extend it a little bit more just before you release, you make it go beyond what you're drawing in that moment, and it goes beyond it for juuuust and instant, takes out a bit more energy out of the system to go into the arrow. You literally pull the spring a bit more past it's normal shooting state to gather some more energy and the arrow flies out a bit faster. As you do it for just an instant, it does not hurt the bow limbs or break them, it's a kind of a cheat to get some more out without compromising the structural stability.
I think that there is an element of Khatra that may be missing here, the part where the bow is supposed to leave the arrow pass without the arrow and fletching contacting the bow. It's my understanding, and admittedly my understanding could be flawed, that one part of Khatra is meant to reduce or eliminate the archer's paradox, since most horse bows don't have the recessed shelf that "modern" bows often have the archer's paradox is a very important consideration, and preventing the fletching from hitting the bow on release also gives you a cleaner release.
Well I throw my bow/gun at the target when I shoot. Gives more power plus if the amo missed the target the weapon will hit the target. Kinda 1 shot double tap.
Armin Hirmer seems to get about 10fps+ with forward Khatra as opposed to without, Murat also gets more speed on the chrono. It's more to do with getting the bow out of the way of overspined heavy arrows so the tail ends don't get deflected heavily right on release. I'm pretty sure no one was accurately measuring arrow spines for war arrows in the 12th century..
Outstanding point Sir. The concept of both Mediterranean style archery, and Asiatic style Archery are pretty much the same functions with all the muscle groups involved, and with only minor differences in the shot processes. I’ve had to try to explain to those individuals both beginners, and advanced archers alike, to differentiate between the two disciplines. Unfortunately, some Archers in the modern Archery realm, is way too bias about what they’ve learned, to be the only way to do archery. I try to teach my students, that there, are many other styles of archery, that stemmed from thousands of years ago, that are still practiced today. The only difference is perhaps the modern materials being used today. Thanks for posting Sir......I will be referring this vid to many of my students 😇🙏🇺🇸🇵🇭🇺🇸🇵🇭🇺🇸🇵🇭🏹🏹👍
You are basically describing the push-pull method I was taught 40 years ago when first shooting English longbow, it could be argued, that no matter which style of archery you follow, you will do this without realising, whether you call it Eastern or Western, khatra or Arabic, it makes no difference, shooting a bow when done properly is exactly the same, the only difference is the emphasis placed on the different aspects, usually visual, of the various archery ideologies followed😎🏹🙏
Great video. I had many of the same thoughts watching other videos on the subject. I'm pretty novice as an archer, but from a physics perspective it just didn't seem right that any archer could use just one hand and not the other. Newton's laws just don't allow it. The way it's explained here is perfect.
The serisan archery book explains what lars is doing and what many seem to misunderstand about using two hands. To use two hands you are essentially flinging the arrow forward, and "spurring" (sarisan archery) the arrow. You have to use your "wrist" to fling the top limb ahead of the lower at "just the right time" and lower the bow hand doing this ultimately pushes the nock point forward a little extra in a linear direction; if you dont do this, you are doing what most archers do and that basically letting the limbs do all the work, it does not refer to just pushing the bow arm simultaneously and everything to do with the power of the archer "wrist"
The actual reason for quatra is to move the bow away from the arrow to negate the archers paradox. They did not have properly spined arrows in midieval warfare. It does nothing for the speed of the arrow. It pulls the bow away from the tail end slap of the release so the arrow can fly straight and stable as if shot from a center shot bow.
Yes, but it doesn't negate the archer's paradox. No matter how much you flick the bow, the force of the bowstring will always be in line with the grip.
I suppose you mean speed of shots (shots per minute) and not the speed of the arrow. Any increase in the flight of the arrow will be negligible or cause a reduction depending on timing. You will get more consistent speed without khatra, and you won't see any meaningful loss in speed.
It's interesting because my coach told me that the follow through of throwing the bow forward like that is unnecessary, he heavily criticized that style of shooting. Whilst I don't share his opinion verbatim, I'm still on the sceptical side. I'm not experienced enough to form an opinion to be honest, I only started using a horsebow 3 months ago. I would like to learn more about it tho, maybe try it out myself too. Great video!
Need to see more scientific data to illustrate how much of a difference the "both hand" shooting makes before one can justify the claim of it being "more powerful". One can imagine, however, that while the extra bit of pushing the bow forward upon loosing the arrow should indeed add to its momentum, it is hard to quantify how much momentum it can actually contribute. A few factors will need to be consider. First is the timing of the maneuver. This should be obvious, if the archer pushes too late, the arrow has already left the string, therefore there will be zero contact, hence no effect on the arrow. On the other hand, if the archer pushes too soon, it will cause the arrow to pick up a little bit of initial velocity before the string has a chance to push on it. This will undermine the efficiency of energy transfer from the string to the arrow. So the timing will have to be just when the arrow is naturally leaving the string, and if at that instance comes an extra push on it, there should be an extra bit if acceleration. But for this to be a real acceleration, the velocity of the pushing will have to at least exceed the velocity of the arrow. The bigger the difference, the more meaningful this maneuver is for increasing power of the shot. Second is the location of the arrow that's notched on the string, This may be less apparent but it is actually very crucial. Consider an arrow that is noched right at the mid point of string, and we assume the archer's front arm is almost fully extended (elbow not locked of course). In this scenario, the only way the archer can push the arrow is by rotating the bow, pushing it down, as shown by NU's demo. But if the arrow is noched right at the mid point of the string, its contact point to the string is then at the center of the rotation. There is no force vector at that point. No acceleration. So although it was fancy and elegant what NU did, I seriously doubt it has any real effect on increasing the power of the shots. Third is the draw weight of the bow. If the maneuver has any real effect at all, it will only be substantial for very low draw weight bows and stationary archers. For heavy bows, the little bit of extra pushing is just negligible. And for horse archers, the arrow is already carrying a forward moving momentum, that little extra bit of human push is again insignificant. Basing on these 3 points, while i have no doubt this maneuver existed, I do doubt its practicality, popularity and utility. Is there another reason why an archer would rotate, or drop, his bow? Well to have a clear field of vision after the shot can be a pretty good reason.
> Is there another reason why an archer would rotate, or drop, his bow? Yes. A loose grip will allow the bow to drop due to gravity. A loose grip allows for more consistent aiming and tensioning of the bow. Gripping tightly is harder to do consistently, causes more fatigue, and can alter the trajectory. You can compensate for this with practice, but a loose grip and a finger sling will do you better, generally. I think the rest of your points are spot on.
@@error.418 The loose grip also prevents twistig the bow and eliminates part of the shock which comes from the bow. Only modern bows with stabilisers drop forward after the shot, all other bows lean back towards archer. To prevent this the deliberate drop forward is applied. Traditional Korean archers also do this. Even some olympic Korean archers do a slight bowhand wrist movement down.
Well there is this thing called the hill curve. And there is Newtons laws. What more do you need, perhaps a better deffintion on stacking Vs stress. All the evidence sugjest that this teknuiqe has no merit
Username Yes I agree, This point is also well presented in NU's other videos. But what I meant was actually for the archer to deliberately drop or rotate the bow, not what naturally happens due to a loose grip.
Hi NUSensei, just to bring another perspective, GB national team coach Alistair Whittingham clearly states in his perfomance archery on the front hand “there is no push ever from the frond end” :D
Hi Nu. I’m a long time fan and follower of your Channel. I actually do the side down Khatra but recently developed a TFCC injury on my wrist. I have a sample of how I do Khatra in my Channel. I’m actually thinking of switching to side Khatra using a Korea style torque, but I’m afraid to do it on my Tatar and SiCai bow because of the small Siyahs. Would you recommend using Torque on these types of bows?
There's another element of this that's overlooked, the physiological part. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. When the tension of the bow is released, the arms are going to react, and that can affect the shot. When you snap the wrist of the bow arm down, whether by doing the khatra or the Olympic style of snapping the hand down with relaxed fingers, the tendons of the wrist tighten up, helping to lock the arm in place so that it doesn't fly up, down or to the side, resulting in a more consistent and accurate shot. The Khatra may get the bow out of the way (if you're shooting in an eastern style where the arrow is on the outside of the bow) but it does not change the archer's paradox at all, because that is 100% the result of two other things: (1) the fact that the arrow does not pass through the center of the bow, and (2) Newton's first Law of Motion, and object at rest will remain at rest unless acted upon by another force. When the string begins to push the arrow, the arrow bends, because there is less resistance to bending than to accelerating; the back of the arrow is moving faster than the tip, so it has to bend. That sets up the oscillation in the arrow, which, once the arrow begins to spin, results in the Archer's Paradox. It's just physics meets kinesiology.
The bow arm is under tennssion or if you are strong enough in a nutersl or isometric state, on release the compression is released and causes the follow theough aided by the left over force not absorved bycthe arrow, there is no tenssion on the hand its should be on the bones, the only muscles that should be slighty tense in the bow arm is the tricep, and fore arm flexors. You also forget that switching the arrow from left or the right side change the transvers angel and therby the angel of deflectuon of the riser, so there is a change i the compression direction in the spine of the arrow changing the dynamic spine and flight, if an Archer changes his alignment or aims way of the bow arm and the angel also changes so one could argu its no longer the same teknuiqe. Also aiming up and down to servere degree break the power line and jo get the archimedes crowbar effect.
Also the grip is different in arab they put pressure futher down, herlig the bow and since there is an uneven tiller you get a natural pivot point, so the reaction or Khstra is all ready set the moment the string is in motion.
the main purpose of using both hands is keeping your stamine in battle so you can shoot all day long .. or else by the end of day you cant even draw the bow .. also using both hands adds more energy and speed to the arrow with minimal effort .. also it adds speed "arrows per minuite" if you want to shoot fast to stop enemy advance .. also you are required to shoot instinctively with almost no aim or hold time and rely on you previous training "to keep stamina and increase shooting speed" also it required shooting the arrow from the right side of bow .. but if you want to hunt "one arrow presicion" modern archery "arrow left side , full draw and hold etc " gives more accuracy for sure .
Mihai Cozmei said horse archers used khatra principle to empower their shots as they were not able to use heavy bows on horses like the foot soldier would use. Khatra in basic is an accuracy technique as it allows to bypass archer paradox and releases arrow straight, therefore every arrow may be shot correctly with every bow. Like Japanese archers do. They tend to stand still with their aim but they let the bow rotate for that clean release. Here's example of clean release top view. ruclips.net/video/U0-xOTORPEU/видео.html
Interesting! Also on a horse I'd think it's less useful to get a finely balanced shot because it's bouncing anyway, so a quick release could even be more accurate.
I wonder if it's a result of horse archery vs foot? On a horse, the Western style of raising arm and aiming would seem more difficult than 'pushing' which acts as a form of aiming, i.e. you punch your bow arm forward to the target. In contrast, Western style raising arm and aiming is probably much more accurate but only on foot when your not bumping up and down on the back of a horse.
Actually, "the modern archery" also knows the front hand release. It is decribed for example in KSL method and also Triple Trouble channel has a video about release in their technique week series, where it is mentioned and is clearly visible. In my opinion, passive front hand during release is a faulty form.
Bow hand can not be passive, otherwise it will collapse under the pressure of the bow. It is constant push forward any way, even visually ir looks deceptively passive.
Interesting, but seems like the real bottom line is whether one technique or the other provides more accuracy. I can't see that "pushing the bow really adds any significant force to the arrow, which is more a function of the draw and the bows strength.
SkyHook . Drones There are several videos made regarding khatra as well as several tests that demonstrate a marginal increase in arrow speed and I also highly advocate watching a series of videos called ‘Learn Archery like a Mameluke- Khatra’. It’s not a significant boost in power but considering the era they were in where armour largely negated archery’s effectiveness, it makes sense from that perspective
This is called snap shooting, it may give a few more feet per second in speed provided the movement are done properly, pushing and pulling at the same time to extend the draw length just before releasing the arrow. Surprisingly it is frowned upon by not just purist but by most archers because unless perfected, it tends not to yield the same accuracy as a stable bow holding hand.
Would there be a way to measure the benefits of the dynamic push release? Given its historical application in Asiatic warfare, is this style adding power to the shot (for the intents of range or armor piercing)? Or is this a way to speed up the draw/release (or even increase the archer's combat endurance) by sharing the load/draw-time between arms? And are there any accuracy or stability benefits that could be measured? I ask these questions because this style, as interesting as it is, seems to add more variables to the movement and, therefore, potentially compromise accuracy, for example.
This is where khatra is controversial. Those who test its speed through a chronograph have the problem of dynamic shooting being more variable, so the faster readers are often the result of a longer draw length. Even if this isn't the case, critics of khatra will see it in this light. On the other hand, critics who try to disprove khatra may not have enough of an understanding to properly execute it, and thus also invalidate their own tests. I'm not sure if there's a reputable test. I'd welcome anyone who knows of a video to share it.
Just a rough Idea though, all I can lend is a bowyers' point of view, it has to do with hysteresis wherein the longer you hold the draw the more it loses its stored power, it has been a really tough thing to know and isolate specially in construction, it has been noted that stored power and efficiency can be different, the efficiency can be wherein the ability to retain potential energy in the bow where as efficiency is only measured when the arrow is released, you can have heavy poundage korean bows but still underperform in some aspects such as flight shooting when compared with stiff low angle reflexed tips of Hungarian or Turkish design, you'll be surprised on how counter intuitive the ideal bow design would be in a mathematical simulation. Sorry for the Ad Nauseam but back to hysteresis, I can't claim full on credibility on this since all I make are Yumi bows, if you have 2 chronographs place them at least 6 feet apart, measure the arrowspeed by shooting in a "long duration" draw vs fast draws on full draw.
I think that this is Khatra in a nutshell, a good idea buried under Eastern mysticism. High speed photography shows that the arrow is long gone before the Khatra happens, so the common misconception that it removes paradox is wrong. As NuSensei mentioned, Gao Ying is very critical of it and does not like archers who "make unnecessary flourishes." Increasing arrow speed is laughable - physics do not change based on hand movement - as someone in the comments mentioned, it's like punching with a gun to make the bullet faster. Reducing hysteresis is probable but any fast shooting method works for this, see how fast all traditional mediterranean releases are; see English longbowmen and Hadza tribesmen from Africa. I think that Khatra does encourage the push-pull draw needed for heavy war bows and gets proper back tension in the archers body. All the rest is myth, legend and confusion over hundreds of years from "shoot like this, it is better."
How do you give it more power? The energi is released when the string moves forward, at that point the energi is decided by the tillet of the bow aka draw weight at the lenght or point of release, if you want to add more power you must increses the speed of the limbs, but if you throw a ball inside a plane doing 300kmt dosnt mean the ball is flying at the same speed of you messure it. So can we add speed to the limbs all ready on motion before the arrow leaves the string in 0. 200 ish seconds. Mass x acxel. decided by time then account for energi lost in sound heat and friction and then do you calculate before or after dynamic efficency ?
I had expected a comparison to japanese Archery "Kyudo" where you flick your wrist outwards while releasing the shot. (the wrist that is holding the bow) This increases the power of the shot
it isnt done in kyudo to increase power that i know of. Also, it is mainly an art form and meditation thing - it certainly is different to how samurai would have practiced archery in actual combat.
No, they dont actually flick the wrist. they in fact keep the grip very lose so the bow can naturally rotate in their grip. It will rotate because of the forces generated by the slight deflection of the string and the nock pulling the string.
People will claim it helps reduce the effects of the archer's paradox (it doesn't) and that it will increase the flight speed and therefore power of the arrow (negligible or non-existent even with perfect technique).
Does dynamic shooting lend itself to more instinctual shooting? I’ve heard instinctual shooting is like throwing a ball. Having the push motion seems like it would keep archers from trying to “aim” instead of just throwing the areow
In war and especially on horse, quick aim and shoot is needed. In past battles were mostly done in big and tight groups so aim was not the main factor. You just want as many arrows as possible on enemy.
That Lars Anderson statement is total bullshit,my instinctive coach taught us Push&Pull because he saw Olympic archers do it and he saw it worked with our method as well.
I have often thought, when shooting, that the western archery style is a holdover from, mostly, English war archery when massed archers stood in fairly close packed ranks for volley fire. Do you think that this is plausible? To me it explains the upright and quite rigid shooting stance. Just my thoughts anyway.
Modern Western archery is descended from the recreational form of archery used by the English nobility and gentry in the 17th century, in turn descended from medieval war archery. It's not a direct descent from English war archery, but from the Victorian and Edwardian era archery.
As a modern, Western Olympic-style recurve shooter, the idea of using both hands - "push-pull" only gelled for me when I went up in bow weight (as a newcomer at the time). As a beginner using 18-24 lb club bows, you don't need both hands - the draw hand will do. But once you're shooting 36+ lb, you need to engage all the right muscles - both back tension and the front shoulder, to execute a decent shot. The whole Asiatic/Western archery thing - I don't know how the draw weights compare (historically)? But I assume people shooting for food/war are shooting less arrows (and higher poundage) than those shooting for modern competition?
@@thrownswordpommel7393 Asiatic war bows were of equal poundage, except for Japanese bows - they decided to increase not the poundage but a draw length, which is also beneficial for the volicity of arrow.
I think the “both hand tech” -presumably-are a bit faster but loses accuracy which suitable for hitting big targets, while traditional tech are accurate which suits smaller targets.
I really don't think that Khatra is the result of pushing the bow. Flamboyant khatra-- like flourishes may involve an exaggerated forward push--but actual khatra is only intended to move the bow away from the arrow. This need only move the bow down and to the side an eighth of an inch or so--and can be achieved without 'pushing' the bow. The tension in the wrist that pops the bow away from the arrow can, in high poundage bows, cause a large movement of the bow--after the arrow has left and is on its way! The movement that removes the bow from the path of the arrow is tiny and occurs in the fraction of a second after release-- the rest is either the follow through caused by the elasticity of muscles and tendons in the wrist and arm that were under load prior to the release--or flamboyant showing off (imitating in a light bow what would naturally occur due to using khatra in a heavy bow). Of course, pushing directly forward with the bow hand is a common technique, and can be executed together with khatra--but is not khatra--or the cause of khatra.
More to the point, archery across every style is probably around 85% similar. People tend to make a bigger deal of the differences than how they are similar.
I see katra as a simp[le way for the arrow to have almost non contact with the riser, thus giving you perfect arrow flight. Kinda like a drop away compound bow rest.
If you're loading your back muscles with the draw and the push, I see no utility in the flamboyant flourish given that by the time you've commence the khatra the arrow has long since left the string and cleared the riser. It looks nice though.
There is another reason when you shoot from the right side of the bow, and during khatra release you rotate the bow not only forward, but also to the right. In this way the string returns not directly against center of the bow, but slightly to the right. Which is a way to limit archery paradox if you don't have centershot bow. Second reason is psychological - if you imagine arrow release in the same way as throwing a punch against enemy, and you want such "puch" to be as hard as possible, khatra will come to you naturally.
@@mortenjacobsen5673 When you release the string with your fingers, the string begins to push arrow forward, and will push it until the arrow finally leaves the bow. Without khatra and centershot bow, the string pushes arrow nock towards vertical axis of the bow, but arrow point is not on this axis. That forces arrow to bend and creates most important part of archery paradox. With khatra, the string travels to the side of the bow, ideally directly against arrow point, which greatly reduces bending of arrow. With khatra, you can do almost centershotlike shot even if you don't have centershot bow.
@@PetrKavan no you cant, there is always a transvers angel from the string leaving the fingers or a thumb ring , even compound bows shot with a release aid can shoot off just from pressure on the string from the face the arrow will always have inertia and the force to move it an opposite reaction bending the arrow
Actually the bow hand twist while release to counter the archer paradox. Asian archers are usually cavalry archer, need more accuracy than infantry archer because shooting on horseback
@@MizanQistina archers paradox (or rather it's explanation) is what makes the arrow fly towards the target. You don't need anything to counter that. And no horse archer was ever as accurate as a foot archer.
@@adam-k If you shoot the arrow on your thumb side, archer paradox take effect, the arrow will fly on the right. Don't believe me? Try it. So Asian/Arab/Mongol archers need to twist their bow hand to the left to counter it making the arrow shoot straight. And also shooting on a moving horse isn't like shooting while standing Oh if you ask why they shoot on the thumb side, it is because the thumb can grip the arrow practically than your index finger ON A MOVING HORSE
It may appear like this but in reality in any style back mustles do the main job. Hands are merely attachments to back muscles, and those muscles do most of the job. The only hand which does a signifacand job is bow hand (triceps muscle). Muscles of the drawing hand are mostly relaxed in any style. Except those muscles which operate fingers. This is clear, obvious and known for anybody who is in archery for a longer period of time.
@@georgiykireev9678 He means literally the hand, the gripping of the bow's grip. You will still use the muscles of the arm holding the bow to help draw the bow. But you don't need to tightly grip the bow's grip. Tightly gripping can lead to lower accuracy (although this can be compensated for with practice).
@@georgiykireev9678 No, that requires more energi, more muscles to coordinate and fatuge, its better do distribute the load on the skeletal frame, hills curve also explains that the muscle producer more force at an isometric stage.
So in essence the Arab release is like shooting a slingshot? I used to do this before unknowingly when I first started shooting then I watch a lot of video and most of them shoot it like a catapult. then again in Japanese archery they say they are not pulling the arrow instead they are pushing it.
It seems to me that the most important thing from the text was the "simultaneous release of both hands at the moment of shooting." I imagine that releasing the bow hand in this context essentially means letting it adopt the same position as in Olympic technique. Makes one wonder whether the author used a fingersling or similar to allow for swing.
The modern technique is not a "release" of the hand, though, and the purposes are very different. The modern technique is a follow-through precipitated by a loose grip, in a way that the bow actually jumps from the hand if not held. The swing only happens because of the stabiliser rods pushing the weight out forward, and is only used for precision sport shooting. For this historical method, or khatra, the purpose is allegedly twofold: to provide more clearance for the arrow, and to increase acceleration of the arrow. The methods cannot be identical, as this only works with the thumb draw with the arrow on the thumb side. Using khatra with a modern target bow would mean knocking the arrow away, since the movement goes outwards. In addition, without a front-heavy weight that sticks out a foot from the bow, a historical bow would not swing forward.
@@NUSensei Fair enough on the swing point. I'd forgotten about the importance of the stabilizer to the swing action. Sorry if what I wrote before wasn't clear. Was the text you quoted not in reference to the historical technique? I didn't mean to suggest that the modern technique is a release, merely that it's possible to read the text as indicating releasing the bow hand. This seemed like it would result in a "relaxed" bow hand at the moment of the shot.
Historical grip technique was opposite to modern target grip. Historically, archers held the bow quite tightly, at least in the style referred to here. It has been quoted that the fingernails should turn white form the tension. While the modern follow-through is the result of a relaxed grip, the historical motion is the result of an active technique.
Indeed only those wo are distant from archery can speak about "one hand Western archery"😁. I see no principal difference between these two styles in this aspect - appart from that one uses static push, and the other one - a dynamic push. It would be interesting to check both for speed of the arrow. I believe the speed would be the same.
Arab Archery stresses on speed and consecutive shots, while modern western archery focuses on stability and precision. Is there any way to combine both of them so that I can do rapid & consecutive, yet stable and precise shots? People have been saying things like there's no need to do that or whatever, but really, I am curious.
@@mortenjacobsen5673 actually, not really. It can serve as an obstacle of sorts, and is useful when facing an army of infantry and cavalry. A rain of arrows do not need accuracy, as long as it keeps on raining, it will hit and reduce the army, especially if they're grouped.
Could it be that using both hands is less exhausting than drawing with one hand? If you are drawing at the same length on the same bow, pulling with both hands could distribute the stress on muscles on both sides, and so the archer would be able to shoot more without the arms getting tired. This could be more important in horse archery where you are using your hands do all the work, like using the reins, as well as the archery, drawing your sword if you need to etc.
Just looked through most of the comments (at 79 comments at the moment) and everyone stated their opinion, but no one suggested the use of science to discover if katrah actually imparts greater force (speed). I'm sure this would be very easy to measure with a chroni. Hardest part would be to find a proficient katrah advocate who is willing to put their opinions to the test. I notice Qyuubi786 down below in the comments mentioned that he just used both techniques and katrah proved to be significantly more powerful. Chroni and a camera should resolve this. Anyone willing to do the test?
People have suggested using a chronograph. And in the real world people have used a chronograph and shown the difference in flight speed to be negligible (no measurable difference). I haven't seen any suggest using a force plate, but that has also been done with the same result. There is a negligible difference (not measurable) in force applied at the target. I have not yet seen a high speed camera comparing the tow, however. I think it's reasonable to assume that the more dynamic techniques will require more training to be consistent. Generally, you are adding more variables to the system and it is likely that a dynamic shot will be less consistent. With training, that consistency can be reduced, but never reduced to zero as compared to more static shots. And as addressed in the video, all real world techniques use "both hands" to draw the bow. The difference with khatra is that you also push the bow farther as you release, and you also release "while drawing," meaning you don't pause at the full draw, you release once you hit full draw. There are people who swear this increases the speed of flight and power of the arrow, but this has been shown to be incorrect. But it's hard to shake beliefs. With khatra you often also tilt the bow and sometimes twist the bow at release in order to "counter" the archer's paradox, but this is also a misconception because you do not need to counter the archer's paradox. As well, it doesn't do any countering because the bow string will always apply force towards the bow grip. You are simply changing the vector of the force on the arrow and thereby reducing the force on the arrow. So you will (likely negligibly) reduce the speed of flight and force of the arrow. Does this make khatra bad? Maybe in some point of view, if you are wanting to achieve the highest level of precision, accuracy, speed, and force. But with practice you can perform the technique with generally good results and be quite happy. Plus you are honoring and preserving tradition, and that has merits. It's just unfortunate that it's taught in a way that claims results which are false.
I want to thank you for your content! I have learned so much from watching your channel. I doubt this will get a response, as I know you are busy, but here goes I've recently gotten into archery (shooting compund) I find the lines and elegance of the Mongol bow appealing. I have sight issues and am looking to get in to a more traditional style that I can do ambidextrously as I'm right eye dominant and that eye is getting bad.. Could you suggest a decent bow reproduction as I have looked and can't decide and would appreciate your input . Keep the vids coming I've love this channel. Thank you for all you do
@@wojtekimbier Well that is the conclusion you get when you don't understand how it works, no matter you use khatra, tsunomi, or 控弓 they all adopt a slightly different principle and intent. Some use it to increase velocity, some use it to correct flight path, some just likes to do it because it looks bad ass. Being said that just on khatra alone, there are different ways to do khatra and all have a slightly different outcome in each style. If you want to come up with something that generalize methods and categorize them like in olympic style archery, you will fail. Your aspect of minimal differences is the same as saying shooting a gun is the same as shooting a bow because they all put a projectile through a target.
@@jj987987987 Sure, but physics is the same no matter what style. And doing the math shows that it's all based on false assumptions from older generations. It's great to learn and study and respect the traditions, but recognize it does not add velocity and does not help with correcting the flight. You don't have to compensate for the archer's paradox (which many people misunderstand...)
I know you're an Archer and everything but have you ever thought of doing some sit-ups you're a little poochie in the middle. I love your videos and I love archery but being in shape all over helps and just saying your little poochie
hmm ... not entirely correct. In eastern archery the khatra brings the bow "out of the way" as well. (since the arrow rest is on the inside) If you try to apply the same in western archery shooting the arrow from the outside the khatra sideways movement out will redirect the arrow.
He is right but missing important reason. Yes both are the same BUT Arabs use this technique as it ensures the string does not get caught in their long beards and dresses. Keeps the bow away from the body.
”...to give the arrow more power”. If you gain about 1fps by pushing the bow hand excessively, you get something like 1% more power to the arrow. That must have been the thing that made all the differences back then.
It is the more difference the lower poundage you use. Generally if you have the hardest bow you can handle, and you enemy's armor can stop your arrow half the time, the you naturally take any measures to make sure you pierce it. Also if your enemy does not wear armour, but stands just behind you effective range. Sport archery takes such problems away from you, because it only concentrates on hitting target.
@@PetrKavan it does , its set unless its a self bow or composite effected by weather and temp, hitting the gas pedal harder dont give your car more horse power
@@mortenjacobsen5673 That is a very invalid analogy. You can increase speed of arrow just by walking forward during release. It has nothing to do with khatra, but it is undeniable example of a way to arrow speed increase that has nothing to do with clean release or bow properties.
I'm interested in traditional archery. I wanna have a horse bow. but I'm afraid if I break it, I would have to buy a new bow. I'm not ready to spend a lot of money for one, let alone two. Take down recurve is a better choice, I think. If I break it, I just buy the limbs which would be cheaper.
Pushing the bow or Katra does nothing. If you film both methods then slow it down you will see the arrow is already past the riser by the time you move the bow. And if you think about it a tuned arrow bends around the riser so there is no contact. It's just for looks.
the arrow doesn't need to bend round the bow using khatra though you can use it to shoot any spine arrow as long as it's over spined with the correct consistent technique the arrow will go dead straight every time. i think people who say it's moving the handle out of the way have it wrong its the extra torque in the string that guides the arrow away from the handle works well for me and seemingly everyone who gets the hang of the timing/technique. ruclips.net/video/U0-xOTORPEU/видео.html
@@brettalizer3271 Practice and you do it right perfect time works. it works for me although I can shoot without executing the techniques of more than 700 years ago mediterranean styles some 100 years.try you can't do too.✌
@@mortenjacobsen5673 it shure does but not not when you use khatra/correct back tension it is at least negated and the arrow goes straight see for yourself ruclips.net/video/U0-xOTORPEU/видео.html
Can we shut down this "mediterranean release is only 100 years old" rubbish yet? The Assyrians are shown to be using the med. release in 600BC. - over 2000 years ago. Armin is a great guy but he was wrong about this so stop quoting him as if it's fact. Edit: www.alamy.com/stock-photo-assyrian-army-archers-while-one-shoots-the-arrow-the-other-is-protecting-30784049.html Picture of Assyrian archer using med. release from 865 BC - so actually nearer 3000 years old.
The term "khatra' seems to imply some exotic magical eastern technique. In reality it is simply torqueing the bow Forward or sideways to gain a semblance of good arrow flight with traditional equipment. It is also said to produce more power to the shot. I very much doubt this when compared to a good western style follow through. This is what we are talking about "follow through" and its various styles. Every well taught western archer will learn that lateral movement is detrimental to consistency. Torqueing the bow is lateral movement to the line of the shot. When an archer is under any kind of pressure is when potentially inconsistent techniques fall apart. A western archer using tuned equipment and inline follow through will always be superior with regard to consistency and not inferior in any way with regard to power of the shot. Torqueing a bow with some equipment and styles may be a necessary evil but it will never be superior in any way with regard to consistency and resultant accuracy.
Have you seen this video ruclips.net/video/ULpSXZRoUJ8/видео.html It explains one of the problem modern Olympic style archery has to overcome, inertia. if you draw back the bowstring and then stop and hold for the perfect shot, inertia has to be overcome and that slows the arrow speed. Also Armin Hirmer explain he uses the muscle in his bow hand to initiate the release of the string, meaning both hands are active in the release. something to consider.
My son got a kids bow for Christmas and and I shoot at a piece of plywood he tried to penetrate it the normal way and the arrow bounced off but he lurched forward and the arrow went into the target all the way to the feathers I was amazed and I'm gonna try it with my selfbow when I find a sturdy target because mine goes through anyway it does work Try throwing a hard jab with the bow hand during the release I seen him do it it works
is it possible to pull this off with a high poundage bow? i mean im used to my draw but i want more power to my shots so all the energy im using is worth it
yes watch Justin ma pull 100lbs ,but the power of the bow is set by the tiller at a certain draw length, for better efficiency you need to achieve a higher dynamic efficiency with tuned arrows brace height and string strand count and material
My understanding is that with a high poundage bow it is actually easier to do it like this, as opposed to a more static release which gets much harder with higher draw weights.
@@Tennouseijin Yes, releasing without waiting at full draw reduces muscle fatigue and will allow more full draws during the same period of time. That said, it will be harder to be consistent with each draw and so will require more training to compensate.
Power is purely determined by the length of the draw, given the same bow, whether you use one hand, two hands, or both hands and both feet to achieve the same draw length, make absolutely no difference. Tilting the bow forward after you shoot makes absolutely no difference at as well, since your wrist is pathetically weak in comparison to the string in tension. It would make a difference if you can run really fast, while you shoot, maybe on horseback, that would add a bit more power to the shot.
@@Kid-cs9ms the words dose not have sounds so how do i sound is based on your assumption! same as your resent videos which are not knowledgeable. These kind of review videos without any strong scientific backup just reduce your validity as a archery commentator.
@@arshia1981 there are not many sources, if you know of any i would like to know, I have done research on arab archery myself, kyodo, arab, marmaluke, korean, pleas tell us of more sources
Shooting "with two arms" I think it is extremely inaccurate,,, moving your bow at the moment You shoot You loose the bow's balance, so You can do it if you shoot at something near You, and without being too accurate, not a competition target, but an animal and so on,, (or a man!!,! 😂😂😂😂😆😆😆😆) ! Serious..
My technique is far superior. I throw the bow at the target on release. This gives me more power and allows me to hit the target 2x with 1 shot.
My technique is even more superior. I actually nock the bow that i nocked the arrow on onto an even larger bow. Upon loosing the arrow, I immediately loose the small bow, and only then i would throw the larger bow to the target, followed by a flying kick. This technique causes at least 4 times the damage to the target. This technique was very popular in ancient times all over the world but somehow lost in history. It is not mention anywhere. Thanks to me, archery can now return to its original and proper form.
I assume your bow is red as it makes the bow faster.
@@sky9897 with white go faster stripes.
😣
Guys,guys,guys...MY technique is the superiourest. When I shoot, my arrow and my bow actually don't move at all. They stay, on point, tensed, menacing - but I AM launched through the sky, screaming and cursing (and sometimes, peeing) racing towards the enemy, utterly terrifying absolutely everybody. Myself included. Ha.
We do exactly this in Kyudo. The bow is drawn and shot using 2/3 push with the left arm and pulled 1/3 by the right arm infact. Release is created by this continual pushing with the left and pulling with the right, until a simultaneous release at full draw - or explosion in both directions along the line of the arrow to give the arrow more power and speed. Nice to see that it is so in Arab archery
Armin Hirmer explains the technic, use and history of the kathra perfectly
Thanks for the suggestion
Exactly. He shows the difference between using it and not using it too.
I've watched Armin's explanation a while ago, and while he might be an expert in his field, I have to point out two problems I see in his video.
One - he claims that Mediterranean draw is only a few hundred years old - which contradicts much evidence suggesting that it was used since at least ancient times. I suppose what he meant is that sport archery, the style used in Victorian times by the British, which now took the form of olympic/freestyle recurve, is a young form of archery, and that might be true. But just because sport archery uses Mediterranean draw, doesn't mean it's the only style that does.
And secondly, his explanation of momentum has nothing to do with the concept of momentum from physics. I'm not sure if he's referring to some other definition of momentum (he referenced martial arts, so maybe there is some other meaning of momentum in some martial arts?), but from a physics point of view, moving the arrow backwards just prior to release does not increase the momentum understood as mass times velocity. Since velocity is a vector, and what we want is forward velocity, moving the arrow backwards would be negative momentum, and not helpful at all in this case.
There are a few other reasons why khatra works, such as being able to use a heavier draw weight if you do a dynamic release, and the higher efficiency of bow limbs when they are drawn back for only a brief moment (the longer the time spent in full draw, the less elastic bow limbs get). That's my understanding at least. I'm better at physics than at practical archery.
@@Tennouseijin To your third point, it is called "viscoelasticity" I think. I don't know if it is applicable to modern materials.
@@Tennouseijin Also the arrow does not make contact with the bow when using khatra and thus there is no loss of speed.
Doing a flip (forward and to the side) frees the arrow from having to wrap around the bow handle and makes it fly out straight from the string.
Doing a bit more expansion in the last instant prior to release (by pulling the arrow slightly back and pushing the bow slightly forward) is a simple spring effect. The bow/string is - a spring. If you extend it a little bit more just before you release, you make it go beyond what you're drawing in that moment, and it goes beyond it for juuuust and instant, takes out a bit more energy out of the system to go into the arrow. You literally pull the spring a bit more past it's normal shooting state to gather some more energy and the arrow flies out a bit faster. As you do it for just an instant, it does not hurt the bow limbs or break them, it's a kind of a cheat to get some more out without compromising the structural stability.
I think that there is an element of Khatra that may be missing here, the part where the bow is supposed to leave the arrow pass without the arrow and fletching contacting the bow. It's my understanding, and admittedly my understanding could be flawed, that one part of Khatra is meant to reduce or eliminate the archer's paradox, since most horse bows don't have the recessed shelf that "modern" bows often have the archer's paradox is a very important consideration, and preventing the fletching from hitting the bow on release also gives you a cleaner release.
It's like doing a punching motion while shooting a pistol to give the bullet more speed. The gangsters had the right idea all along!
Arif R Winandar yeah! And you can shoot behind corners by swinging the pistol from side to side.
Well I throw my bow/gun at the target when I shoot. Gives more power plus if the amo missed the target the weapon will hit the target. Kinda 1 shot double tap.
@@TheLiamis hmmm...you know you should install a pommel to your bow or gun to properly do that
@@lambchop58 ahh yes and them rightly with a pommel of mass destruction.
Not even similar.
Push - Pull
"Not executed in the same way..."
Sums up the entire 8 minutes in 5 words.
Well done as usual.
I just love your down to earth philosophy and explanation. Great, really great.
Thank you 🤲🏻🙏🏻🙇🏻♂️
Armin Hirmer seems to get about 10fps+ with forward Khatra as opposed to without, Murat also gets more speed on the chrono. It's more to do with getting the bow out of the way of overspined heavy arrows so the tail ends don't get deflected heavily right on release. I'm pretty sure no one was accurately measuring arrow spines for war arrows in the 12th century..
The secret is not in the hands,is on the knees.
Always aim at target's knees, principally when shooting in adventurers.
I used to be an adventurer, untill I took an arrow to the knee
@@lambchop58 Oh hey, you got the reference...
@@lambchop58 literally manga title
You're not hunting Achilles or Krishna dude 😂😂
So you are the one who made all those poor guards leave adventures you MONSTER!
Outstanding point Sir. The concept of both Mediterranean style archery, and Asiatic style Archery are pretty much the same functions with all the muscle groups involved, and with only minor differences in the shot processes. I’ve had to try to explain to those individuals both beginners, and advanced archers alike, to differentiate between the two disciplines. Unfortunately, some Archers in the modern Archery realm, is way too bias about what they’ve learned, to be the only way to do archery. I try to teach my students, that there, are many other styles of archery, that stemmed from thousands of years ago, that are still practiced today. The only difference is perhaps the modern materials being used today. Thanks for posting Sir......I will be referring this vid to many of my students 😇🙏🇺🇸🇵🇭🇺🇸🇵🇭🇺🇸🇵🇭🏹🏹👍
That Toth Mongolian bow is beautiful! You should do a review on it.
You are basically describing the push-pull method I was taught 40 years ago when first shooting English longbow, it could be argued, that no matter which style of archery you follow, you will do this without realising, whether you call it Eastern or Western, khatra or Arabic, it makes no difference, shooting a bow when done properly is exactly the same, the only difference is the emphasis placed on the different aspects, usually visual, of the various archery ideologies followed😎🏹🙏
U nailed the khatra pronunciation in Arabic,good job
Great video. I had many of the same thoughts watching other videos on the subject. I'm pretty novice as an archer, but from a physics perspective it just didn't seem right that any archer could use just one hand and not the other. Newton's laws just don't allow it. The way it's explained here is perfect.
The serisan archery book explains what lars is doing and what many seem to misunderstand about using two hands. To use two hands you are essentially flinging the arrow forward, and "spurring" (sarisan archery) the arrow. You have to use your "wrist" to fling the top limb ahead of the lower at "just the right time" and lower the bow hand doing this ultimately pushes the nock point forward a little extra in a linear direction; if you dont do this, you are doing what most archers do and that basically letting the limbs do all the work, it does not refer to just pushing the bow arm simultaneously and everything to do with the power of the archer "wrist"
The actual reason for quatra is to move the bow away from the arrow to negate the archers paradox. They did not have properly spined arrows in midieval warfare. It does nothing for the speed of the arrow. It pulls the bow away from the tail end slap of the release so the arrow can fly straight and stable as if shot from a center shot bow.
Yes, but it doesn't negate the archer's paradox. No matter how much you flick the bow, the force of the bowstring will always be in line with the grip.
I dont remember if it was arab archery or marmaluke archery that acctualy gave a table of arrow spine... So why would they need khatra..?
deremilitari.org/2013/03/mamluk-kipchak-the-skill-of-archery/
I've been shooting horsebow for several years, in my experience, khatra is for arrow speed
But for accuracy, Olympic style almost perfect
And, in your experience, is there any way to combine that speed with accuracy?
@@irzackihmj5259 but wouldn't it be fun to be able to do that?
I suppose you mean speed of shots (shots per minute) and not the speed of the arrow. Any increase in the flight of the arrow will be negligible or cause a reduction depending on timing. You will get more consistent speed without khatra, and you won't see any meaningful loss in speed.
It's interesting because my coach told me that the follow through of throwing the bow forward like that is unnecessary, he heavily criticized that style of shooting. Whilst I don't share his opinion verbatim, I'm still on the sceptical side. I'm not experienced enough to form an opinion to be honest, I only started using a horsebow 3 months ago. I would like to learn more about it tho, maybe try it out myself too. Great video!
Check Armin Hirmer videos. If I learn and the techniques work for me, Yeah!! Can't work for you too Brother Archer✌
ruclips.net/video/U0-xOTORPEU/видео.html
newtons 3rd law , then the 1st, reaction vs action
I did some field archery today. I shot both with and without katrah and it makes a big difference.
In what regard? Was your shot process just faster with katrah or did you see an increase in accuracy or a decrease in fatigue?
What do you report?
@@Kaylielffxi faster of course but it will decrease accuracy.
Need to see more scientific data to illustrate how much of a difference the "both hand" shooting makes before one can justify the claim of it being "more powerful". One can imagine, however, that while the extra bit of pushing the bow forward upon loosing the arrow should indeed add to its momentum, it is hard to quantify how much momentum it can actually contribute. A few factors will need to be consider.
First is the timing of the maneuver. This should be obvious, if the archer pushes too late, the arrow has already left the string, therefore there will be zero contact, hence no effect on the arrow. On the other hand, if the archer pushes too soon, it will cause the arrow to pick up a little bit of initial velocity before the string has a chance to push on it. This will undermine the efficiency of energy transfer from the string to the arrow. So the timing will have to be just when the arrow is naturally leaving the string, and if at that instance comes an extra push on it, there should be an extra bit if acceleration. But for this to be a real acceleration, the velocity of the pushing will have to at least exceed the velocity of the arrow. The bigger the difference, the more meaningful this maneuver is for increasing power of the shot.
Second is the location of the arrow that's notched on the string, This may be less apparent but it is actually very crucial. Consider an arrow that is noched right at the mid point of string, and we assume the archer's front arm is almost fully extended (elbow not locked of course). In this scenario, the only way the archer can push the arrow is by rotating the bow, pushing it down, as shown by NU's demo. But if the arrow is noched right at the mid point of the string, its contact point to the string is then at the center of the rotation. There is no force vector at that point. No acceleration. So although it was fancy and elegant what NU did, I seriously doubt it has any real effect on increasing the power of the shots.
Third is the draw weight of the bow. If the maneuver has any real effect at all, it will only be substantial for very low draw weight bows and stationary archers. For heavy bows, the little bit of extra pushing is just negligible. And for horse archers, the arrow is already carrying a forward moving momentum, that little extra bit of human push is again insignificant.
Basing on these 3 points, while i have no doubt this maneuver existed, I do doubt its practicality, popularity and utility. Is there another reason why an archer would rotate, or drop, his bow? Well to have a clear field of vision after the shot can be a pretty good reason.
> Is there another reason why an archer would rotate, or drop, his bow?
Yes. A loose grip will allow the bow to drop due to gravity. A loose grip allows for more consistent aiming and tensioning of the bow. Gripping tightly is harder to do consistently, causes more fatigue, and can alter the trajectory. You can compensate for this with practice, but a loose grip and a finger sling will do you better, generally.
I think the rest of your points are spot on.
@@error.418 The loose grip also prevents twistig the bow and eliminates part of the shock which comes from the bow. Only modern bows with stabilisers drop forward after the shot, all other bows lean back towards archer. To prevent this the deliberate drop forward is applied. Traditional Korean archers also do this. Even some olympic Korean archers do a slight bowhand wrist movement down.
Well there is this thing called the hill curve. And there is Newtons laws. What more do you need, perhaps a better deffintion on stacking Vs stress. All the evidence sugjest that this teknuiqe has no merit
Forget kinetic linking but the bow sort off canceles that out
Username Yes I agree, This point is also well presented in NU's other videos. But what I meant was actually for the archer to deliberately drop or rotate the bow, not what naturally happens due to a loose grip.
Hi NUSensei, just to bring another perspective, GB national team coach Alistair Whittingham clearly states in his perfomance archery on the front hand “there is no push ever from the frond end” :D
Nice and easy explanation :) Thanks.
Look at GrizzlyJim , he always moves his bow forward after the release. In my opinion it Looks elegant.
Hi Nu. I’m a long time fan and follower of your Channel. I actually do the side down Khatra but recently developed a TFCC injury on my wrist. I have a sample of how I do Khatra in my Channel. I’m actually thinking of switching to side Khatra using a Korea style torque, but I’m afraid to do it on my Tatar and SiCai bow because of the small Siyahs. Would you recommend using Torque on these types of bows?
There's another element of this that's overlooked, the physiological part. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. When the tension of the bow is released, the arms are going to react, and that can affect the shot. When you snap the wrist of the bow arm down, whether by doing the khatra or the Olympic style of snapping the hand down with relaxed fingers, the tendons of the wrist tighten up, helping to lock the arm in place so that it doesn't fly up, down or to the side, resulting in a more consistent and accurate shot.
The Khatra may get the bow out of the way (if you're shooting in an eastern style where the arrow is on the outside of the bow) but it does not change the archer's paradox at all, because that is 100% the result of two other things: (1) the fact that the arrow does not pass through the center of the bow, and (2) Newton's first Law of Motion, and object at rest will remain at rest unless acted upon by another force. When the string begins to push the arrow, the arrow bends, because there is less resistance to bending than to accelerating; the back of the arrow is moving faster than the tip, so it has to bend. That sets up the oscillation in the arrow, which, once the arrow begins to spin, results in the Archer's Paradox. It's just physics meets kinesiology.
The bow arm is under tennssion or if you are strong enough in a nutersl or isometric state, on release the compression is released and causes the follow theough aided by the left over force not absorved bycthe arrow, there is no tenssion on the hand its should be on the bones, the only muscles that should be slighty tense in the bow arm is the tricep, and fore arm flexors. You also forget that switching the arrow from left or the right side change the transvers angel and therby the angel of deflectuon of the riser, so there is a change i the compression direction in the spine of the arrow changing the dynamic spine and flight, if an Archer changes his alignment or aims way of the bow arm and the angel also changes so one could argu its no longer the same teknuiqe. Also aiming up and down to servere degree break the power line and jo get the archimedes crowbar effect.
Also the grip is different in arab they put pressure futher down, herlig the bow and since there is an uneven tiller you get a natural pivot point, so the reaction or Khstra is all ready set the moment the string is in motion.
the main purpose of using both hands is keeping your stamine in battle so you can shoot all day long .. or else by the end of day you cant even draw the bow .. also using both hands adds more energy and speed to the arrow with minimal effort .. also it adds speed "arrows per minuite" if you want to shoot fast to stop enemy advance .. also you are required to shoot instinctively with almost no aim or hold time and rely on you previous training "to keep stamina and increase shooting speed" also it required shooting the arrow from the right side of bow .. but if you want to hunt "one arrow presicion" modern archery "arrow left side , full draw and hold etc " gives more accuracy for sure .
and maybe very effective when shooting on board the horse
Mihai Cozmei said horse archers used khatra principle to empower their shots as they were not able to use heavy bows on horses like the foot soldier would use.
Khatra in basic is an accuracy technique as it allows to bypass archer paradox and releases arrow straight, therefore every arrow may be shot correctly with every bow. Like Japanese archers do. They tend to stand still with their aim but they let the bow rotate for that clean release.
Here's example of clean release top view. ruclips.net/video/U0-xOTORPEU/видео.html
Interesting! Also on a horse I'd think it's less useful to get a finely balanced shot because it's bouncing anyway, so a quick release could even be more accurate.
love it bro! really well explained
Maybe people should stand behind drag racers and blow on the car at the start of the race to give it more power too
The main point of khatra using thumb release is to stop the flight end of a flexing arrow hitting the bow as it passes, giving a straighter shot.
I wonder if it's a result of horse archery vs foot? On a horse, the Western style of raising arm and aiming would seem more difficult than 'pushing' which acts as a form of aiming, i.e. you punch your bow arm forward to the target. In contrast, Western style raising arm and aiming is probably much more accurate but only on foot when your not bumping up and down on the back of a horse.
I guess this style can muscle up both arm and prevent archers arm.
Actually, "the modern archery" also knows the front hand release. It is decribed for example in KSL method and also Triple Trouble channel has a video about release in their technique week series, where it is mentioned and is clearly visible. In my opinion, passive front hand during release is a faulty form.
Bow hand can not be passive, otherwise it will collapse under the pressure of the bow. It is constant push forward any way, even visually ir looks deceptively passive.
Interesting, but seems like the real bottom line is whether one technique or the other provides more accuracy. I can't see that "pushing the bow really adds any significant force to the arrow, which is more a function of the draw and the bows strength.
SkyHook . Drones There are several videos made regarding khatra as well as several tests that demonstrate a marginal increase in arrow speed and I also highly advocate watching a series of videos called ‘Learn Archery like a Mameluke- Khatra’. It’s not a significant boost in power but considering the era they were in where armour largely negated archery’s effectiveness, it makes sense from that perspective
Yep 👍 noticed it I’ve been experimenting with it🏹
Lars Style Rocks
This is called snap shooting, it may give a few more feet per second in speed provided the movement are done properly, pushing and pulling at the same time to extend the draw length just before releasing the arrow. Surprisingly it is frowned upon by not just purist but by most archers because unless perfected, it tends not to yield the same accuracy as a stable bow holding hand.
Would there be a way to measure the benefits of the dynamic push release? Given its historical application in Asiatic warfare, is this style adding power to the shot (for the intents of range or armor piercing)? Or is this a way to speed up the draw/release (or even increase the archer's combat endurance) by sharing the load/draw-time between arms? And are there any accuracy or stability benefits that could be measured? I ask these questions because this style, as interesting as it is, seems to add more variables to the movement and, therefore, potentially compromise accuracy, for example.
This is where khatra is controversial. Those who test its speed through a chronograph have the problem of dynamic shooting being more variable, so the faster readers are often the result of a longer draw length. Even if this isn't the case, critics of khatra will see it in this light. On the other hand, critics who try to disprove khatra may not have enough of an understanding to properly execute it, and thus also invalidate their own tests. I'm not sure if there's a reputable test. I'd welcome anyone who knows of a video to share it.
@@NUSensei hey sensai khatra literally translates to dangerous from Arabic to English how do I know this? I'm Lebanese. Love your videos by the way.
Just a rough Idea though, all I can lend is a bowyers' point of view, it has to do with hysteresis wherein the longer you hold the draw the more it loses its stored power, it has been a really tough thing to know and isolate specially in construction, it has been noted that stored power and efficiency can be different, the efficiency can be wherein the ability to retain potential energy in the bow where as efficiency is only measured when the arrow is released, you can have heavy poundage korean bows but still underperform in some aspects such as flight shooting when compared with stiff low angle reflexed tips of Hungarian or Turkish design, you'll be surprised on how counter intuitive the ideal bow design would be in a mathematical simulation. Sorry for the Ad Nauseam but back to hysteresis, I can't claim full on credibility on this since all I make are Yumi bows, if you have 2 chronographs place them at least 6 feet apart, measure the arrowspeed by shooting in a "long duration" draw vs fast draws on full draw.
I think that this is Khatra in a nutshell, a good idea buried under Eastern mysticism.
High speed photography shows that the arrow is long gone before the Khatra happens, so the common misconception that it removes paradox is wrong. As NuSensei mentioned, Gao Ying is very critical of it and does not like archers who "make unnecessary flourishes."
Increasing arrow speed is laughable - physics do not change based on hand movement - as someone in the comments mentioned, it's like punching with a gun to make the bullet faster.
Reducing hysteresis is probable but any fast shooting method works for this, see how fast all traditional mediterranean releases are; see English longbowmen and Hadza tribesmen from Africa.
I think that Khatra does encourage the push-pull draw needed for heavy war bows and gets proper back tension in the archers body. All the rest is myth, legend and confusion over hundreds of years from "shoot like this, it is better."
@@dace48
ruclips.net/video/U0-xOTORPEU/видео.html
Honest, I had never heard of that..... ("To give the arrow more power") Thank you! That was very interesting............
How do you give it more power? The energi is released when the string moves forward, at that point the energi is decided by the tillet of the bow aka draw weight at the lenght or point of release, if you want to add more power you must increses the speed of the limbs, but if you throw a ball inside a plane doing 300kmt dosnt mean the ball is flying at the same speed of you messure it. So can we add speed to the limbs all ready on motion before the arrow leaves the string in 0. 200 ish seconds. Mass x acxel. decided by time then account for energi lost in sound heat and friction and then do you calculate before or after dynamic efficency ?
I never really understood why this was a thing, as long as you have good form your good
I had expected a comparison to japanese Archery "Kyudo" where you flick your wrist outwards while releasing the shot. (the wrist that is holding the bow)
This increases the power of the shot
That technique is not to increase power, it is to decrease archer's paradox.
it isnt done in kyudo to increase power that i know of. Also, it is mainly an art form and meditation thing - it certainly is different to how samurai would have practiced archery in actual combat.
No, they dont actually flick the wrist. they in fact keep the grip very lose so the bow can naturally rotate in their grip. It will rotate because of the forces generated by the slight deflection of the string and the nock pulling the string.
what Kudo practitioner do has nothing to do with kathra. It decrease archer's paradox and for "perfection"
How does flinging the bow forward on release effect the flight of the arrow?
Watch Armin Hitler
@@aimarlangley4156 you might want to fix that spelling mistake in his surname before he sees it.
@@Tennouseijin 🤣🤣🤣
People will claim it helps reduce the effects of the archer's paradox (it doesn't) and that it will increase the flight speed and therefore power of the arrow (negligible or non-existent even with perfect technique).
Does dynamic shooting lend itself to more instinctual shooting? I’ve heard instinctual shooting is like throwing a ball. Having the push motion seems like it would keep archers from trying to “aim” instead of just throwing the areow
No instinctive is not a thing
LOL. Below @ throwing the bow. On a serious note, what is the word that used, "katra" or something like that.
Khatra
In war and especially on horse, quick aim and shoot is needed. In past battles were mostly done in big and tight groups so aim was not the main factor. You just want as many arrows as possible on enemy.
I thought similarly. This draw seems better aiming at a lower angle.
That Lars Anderson statement is total bullshit,my instinctive coach taught us Push&Pull because he saw Olympic archers do it and he saw it worked with our method as well.
Kathra is a real deal. It gives the arrow more speed thus more power.
@@why5784 I'm not doubting that at all, I'm saying that what Lars said that "Modern archers are static and use only one hand" is completely wrong.
@@TheCrimsonAtom I think their bow hand only used to swing the bow.
@@why5784 If the draw length remains the same, it does not.
@@fidenemini111 I got the otherwise, a Turkish man used the technique and showed the results on youtube. Pretty impressive, check it out
thanks for making this
I have often thought, when shooting, that the western archery style is a holdover from, mostly, English war archery when massed archers stood in fairly close packed ranks for volley fire. Do you think that this is plausible? To me it explains the upright and quite rigid shooting stance. Just my thoughts anyway.
Modern Western archery is descended from the recreational form of archery used by the English nobility and gentry in the 17th century, in turn descended from medieval war archery. It's not a direct descent from English war archery, but from the Victorian and Edwardian era archery.
That makes sense. Maybe because that shooting style was ingrained in the English archery mindset.
@@NUSensei. Great videos by the way. I have learnt a lot about shooting from you. Thank you for that. Straight shooting.
As a modern, Western Olympic-style recurve shooter, the idea of using both hands - "push-pull" only gelled for me when I went up in bow weight (as a newcomer at the time). As a beginner using 18-24 lb club bows, you don't need both hands - the draw hand will do. But once you're shooting 36+ lb, you need to engage all the right muscles - both back tension and the front shoulder, to execute a decent shot.
The whole Asiatic/Western archery thing - I don't know how the draw weights compare (historically)? But I assume people shooting for food/war are shooting less arrows (and higher poundage) than those shooting for modern competition?
Yeah you would have more draw force like up to 160 lbs for english longbows.
if people knew how muscles work there would be no one hand both hand argument
@@thrownswordpommel7393 Asiatic war bows were of equal poundage, except for Japanese bows - they decided to increase not the poundage but a draw length, which is also beneficial for the volicity of arrow.
I think the “both hand tech” -presumably-are a bit faster but loses accuracy which suitable for hitting big targets, while traditional tech are accurate which suits smaller targets.
Sensei, is the recurve bow you used in this video Bosen horn?
I really don't think that Khatra is the result of pushing the bow. Flamboyant khatra-- like flourishes may involve an exaggerated forward push--but actual khatra is only intended to move the bow away from the arrow. This need only move the bow down and to the side an eighth of an inch or so--and can be achieved without 'pushing' the bow. The tension in the wrist that pops the bow away from the arrow can, in high poundage bows, cause a large movement of the bow--after the arrow has left and is on its way! The movement that removes the bow from the path of the arrow is tiny and occurs in the fraction of a second after release-- the rest is either the follow through caused by the elasticity of muscles and tendons in the wrist and arm that were under load prior to the release--or flamboyant showing off (imitating in a light bow what would naturally occur due to using khatra in a heavy bow). Of course, pushing directly forward with the bow hand is a common technique, and can be executed together with khatra--but is not khatra--or the cause of khatra.
There is no "one style perfect" archery. So it's not a big deal.
More to the point, archery across every style is probably around 85% similar. People tend to make a bigger deal of the differences than how they are similar.
@@NUSensei yeah Newton was born long after archery was around
@@NUSensei The core of it is absolutely identical. Only methods are sligtly variable.
I see katra as a simp[le way for the arrow to have almost non contact with the riser, thus giving you perfect arrow flight. Kinda like a drop away compound bow rest.
Well said
If you're loading your back muscles with the draw and the push, I see no utility in the flamboyant flourish given that by the time you've commence the khatra the arrow has long since left the string and cleared the riser.
It looks nice though.
There is another reason when you shoot from the right side of the bow, and during khatra release you rotate the bow not only forward, but also to the right. In this way the string returns not directly against center of the bow, but slightly to the right. Which is a way to limit archery paradox if you don't have centershot bow. Second reason is psychological - if you imagine arrow release in the same way as throwing a punch against enemy, and you want such "puch" to be as hard as possible, khatra will come to you naturally.
@@PetrKavan path of arrow is set at release, front node point subject to newton 3rd law
@@mortenjacobsen5673 When you release the string with your fingers, the string begins to push arrow forward, and will push it until the arrow finally leaves the bow. Without khatra and centershot bow, the string pushes arrow nock towards vertical axis of the bow, but arrow point is not on this axis. That forces arrow to bend and creates most important part of archery paradox. With khatra, the string travels to the side of the bow, ideally directly against arrow point, which greatly reduces bending of arrow. With khatra, you can do almost centershotlike shot even if you don't have centershot bow.
@@PetrKavan no you cant, there is always a transvers angel from the string leaving the fingers or a thumb ring , even compound bows shot with a release aid can shoot off just from pressure on the string from the face the arrow will always have inertia and the force to move it an opposite reaction bending the arrow
@@mortenjacobsen5673 In compound bows with mechanical release arrow bends verticaly not sideways like with finger release. But it bends any way.
Actually the bow hand twist while release to counter the archer paradox. Asian archers are usually cavalry archer, need more accuracy than infantry archer because shooting on horseback
No it's not. And they don't.
@@adam-k Yes it is and they do.
@@MizanQistina archers paradox (or rather it's explanation) is what makes the arrow fly towards the target. You don't need anything to counter that. And no horse archer was ever as accurate as a foot archer.
@@adam-k If you shoot the arrow on your thumb side, archer paradox take effect, the arrow will fly on the right. Don't believe me? Try it. So Asian/Arab/Mongol archers need to twist their bow hand to the left to counter it making the arrow shoot straight. And also shooting on a moving horse isn't like shooting while standing
Oh if you ask why they shoot on the thumb side, it is because the thumb can grip the arrow practically than your index finger ON A MOVING HORSE
@@MizanQistina the paradox is set the nano second the string is in motion unless youre faster than the string 150fps+ the arrow stays in motion
it sounds like western archery places the tension of expansion on the back, while eastern puts it in the arms.
It may appear like this but in reality in any style back mustles do the main job. Hands are merely attachments to back muscles, and those muscles do most of the job. The only hand which does a signifacand job is bow hand (triceps muscle). Muscles of the drawing hand are mostly relaxed in any style. Except those muscles which operate fingers. This is clear, obvious and known for anybody who is in archery for a longer period of time.
@@fidenemini111 But wouldn't it be more efficient to spread the load over as many muscles as possible? Why not use the drawing hand as well?
@@georgiykireev9678 He means literally the hand, the gripping of the bow's grip. You will still use the muscles of the arm holding the bow to help draw the bow. But you don't need to tightly grip the bow's grip. Tightly gripping can lead to lower accuracy (although this can be compensated for with practice).
@@georgiykireev9678 No, that requires more energi, more muscles to coordinate and fatuge, its better do distribute the load on the skeletal frame, hills curve also explains that the muscle producer more force at an isometric stage.
The Arab technique give you more style.
So in essence the Arab release is like shooting a slingshot? I used to do this before unknowingly when I first started shooting then I watch a lot of video and most of them shoot it like a catapult. then again in Japanese archery they say they are not pulling the arrow instead they are pushing it.
It seems to me that the most important thing from the text was the "simultaneous release of both hands at the moment of shooting." I imagine that releasing the bow hand in this context essentially means letting it adopt the same position as in Olympic technique. Makes one wonder whether the author used a fingersling or similar to allow for swing.
The modern technique is not a "release" of the hand, though, and the purposes are very different. The modern technique is a follow-through precipitated by a loose grip, in a way that the bow actually jumps from the hand if not held. The swing only happens because of the stabiliser rods pushing the weight out forward, and is only used for precision sport shooting. For this historical method, or khatra, the purpose is allegedly twofold: to provide more clearance for the arrow, and to increase acceleration of the arrow. The methods cannot be identical, as this only works with the thumb draw with the arrow on the thumb side. Using khatra with a modern target bow would mean knocking the arrow away, since the movement goes outwards. In addition, without a front-heavy weight that sticks out a foot from the bow, a historical bow would not swing forward.
@@NUSensei Fair enough on the swing point. I'd forgotten about the importance of the stabilizer to the swing action.
Sorry if what I wrote before wasn't clear. Was the text you quoted not in reference to the historical technique? I didn't mean to suggest that the modern technique is a release, merely that it's possible to read the text as indicating releasing the bow hand. This seemed like it would result in a "relaxed" bow hand at the moment of the shot.
Historical grip technique was opposite to modern target grip. Historically, archers held the bow quite tightly, at least in the style referred to here. It has been quoted that the fingernails should turn white form the tension. While the modern follow-through is the result of a relaxed grip, the historical motion is the result of an active technique.
@@NUSensei Yea, historical bows naturally swing bsck towards the archer.
Indeed only those wo are distant from archery can speak about "one hand Western archery"😁. I see no principal difference between these two styles in this aspect - appart from that one uses static push, and the other one - a dynamic push. It would be interesting to check both for speed of the arrow. I believe the speed would be the same.
From what I heard about English longbow, you use your both arms to pull the string so you can pull a heavier bow.
Both arm use to pull the string? How you hold the bow if both hand pulling the string?
@@irzackihmj5259 😂😂😂
Arab Archery stresses on speed and consecutive shots, while modern western archery focuses on stability and precision.
Is there any way to combine both of them so that I can do rapid & consecutive, yet stable and precise shots? People have been saying things like there's no need to do that or whatever, but really, I am curious.
Dead King in Hell Guns consecutive shots with stability and precision 😂
@@شمسالاجهر not funny
Speed is usless if they cant hit...
@@mortenjacobsen5673 actually, not really. It can serve as an obstacle of sorts, and is useful when facing an army of infantry and cavalry. A rain of arrows do not need accuracy, as long as it keeps on raining, it will hit and reduce the army, especially if they're grouped.
@@King_of_Antisemites yes killing a 1oo dollar horse with 1 dollar stick wounding People and reducing shilelds is good economics
In the arabic best archery has talhah bin ubaidillah,he has 2-3-4 aroow thogether and that nice acuracy 4/3 enemy kill by her
Could it be that using both hands is less exhausting than drawing with one hand? If you are drawing at the same length on the same bow, pulling with both hands could distribute the stress on muscles on both sides, and so the archer would be able to shoot more without the arms getting tired. This could be more important in horse archery where you are using your hands do all the work, like using the reins, as well as the archery, drawing your sword if you need to etc.
Archers use back muscles to shoot, not the arms.
Why ask for comments. Perform an experiment. Execute each technique and all variations around it, while measuring speed.
Well done
i want to know more abut the arabic archery....where should I search???
deremilitari.org/2013/03/mamluk-kipchak-the-skill-of-archery/or arab archery
Just looked through most of the comments (at 79 comments at the moment) and everyone stated their opinion, but no one suggested the use of science to discover if katrah actually imparts greater force (speed). I'm sure this would be very easy to measure with a chroni. Hardest part would be to find a proficient katrah advocate who is willing to put their opinions to the test. I notice Qyuubi786 down below in the comments mentioned that he just used both techniques and katrah proved to be significantly more powerful. Chroni and a camera should resolve this. Anyone willing to do the test?
Even better, if we could use a high-speed camera to measure how the arrow accelerates throughout the shot.
People have suggested using a chronograph. And in the real world people have used a chronograph and shown the difference in flight speed to be negligible (no measurable difference). I haven't seen any suggest using a force plate, but that has also been done with the same result. There is a negligible difference (not measurable) in force applied at the target. I have not yet seen a high speed camera comparing the tow, however.
I think it's reasonable to assume that the more dynamic techniques will require more training to be consistent. Generally, you are adding more variables to the system and it is likely that a dynamic shot will be less consistent. With training, that consistency can be reduced, but never reduced to zero as compared to more static shots.
And as addressed in the video, all real world techniques use "both hands" to draw the bow. The difference with khatra is that you also push the bow farther as you release, and you also release "while drawing," meaning you don't pause at the full draw, you release once you hit full draw. There are people who swear this increases the speed of flight and power of the arrow, but this has been shown to be incorrect. But it's hard to shake beliefs.
With khatra you often also tilt the bow and sometimes twist the bow at release in order to "counter" the archer's paradox, but this is also a misconception because you do not need to counter the archer's paradox. As well, it doesn't do any countering because the bow string will always apply force towards the bow grip. You are simply changing the vector of the force on the arrow and thereby reducing the force on the arrow. So you will (likely negligibly) reduce the speed of flight and force of the arrow.
Does this make khatra bad? Maybe in some point of view, if you are wanting to achieve the highest level of precision, accuracy, speed, and force. But with practice you can perform the technique with generally good results and be quite happy. Plus you are honoring and preserving tradition, and that has merits. It's just unfortunate that it's taught in a way that claims results which are false.
Is there a title for the Arab Archery book?
Shockingly, the English version of the book is called... Arab Archery.
Your bow hand initiates the release.
I want to thank you for your content! I have learned so much from watching your channel. I doubt this will get a response, as I know you are busy, but here goes I've recently gotten into archery (shooting compund) I find the lines and elegance of the Mongol bow appealing. I have sight issues and am looking to get in to a more traditional style that I can do ambidextrously as I'm right eye dominant and that eye is getting bad..
Could you suggest a decent bow reproduction as I have looked and can't decide and would appreciate your input . Keep the vids coming I've love this channel. Thank you for all you do
I guess using "both hands" style is takes more practice
This can be considered for instinctive archery, but I honestly Don't know if it's gonna be really accurate !
I got used to that without even knowing what it was
The style seems gimmicky.
They're the same physics, just different execution and emphasis
it has to do with the arrow nock slapping the bow on a thumb release. You don't get that with Mediterranean release.
nope
Well put into words. I think the difference is minimal
@@wojtekimbier Well that is the conclusion you get when you don't understand how it works, no matter you use khatra, tsunomi, or 控弓 they all adopt a slightly different principle and intent. Some use it to increase velocity, some use it to correct flight path, some just likes to do it because it looks bad ass. Being said that just on khatra alone, there are different ways to do khatra and all have a slightly different outcome in each style. If you want to come up with something that generalize methods and categorize them like in olympic style archery, you will fail. Your aspect of minimal differences is the same as saying shooting a gun is the same as shooting a bow because they all put a projectile through a target.
@@jj987987987 Sure, but physics is the same no matter what style. And doing the math shows that it's all based on false assumptions from older generations. It's great to learn and study and respect the traditions, but recognize it does not add velocity and does not help with correcting the flight. You don't have to compensate for the archer's paradox (which many people misunderstand...)
I know you're an Archer and everything but have you ever thought of doing some sit-ups you're a little poochie in the middle. I love your videos and I love archery but being in shape all over helps and just saying your little poochie
Get over it.
hmm ... not entirely correct. In eastern archery the khatra brings the bow "out of the way" as well. (since the arrow rest is on the inside)
If you try to apply the same in western archery shooting the arrow from the outside the khatra sideways movement out will redirect the arrow.
Just a disagreement on terms it seems. He wasn’t terribly specific on that point but you defined it far more specifically.
He is right but missing important reason. Yes both are the same BUT Arabs use this technique as it ensures the string does not get caught in their long beards and dresses. Keeps the bow away from the body.
Why do you keep watching his videos when you know they'll hurt you.
What do you even mean, Jens?
”...to give the arrow more power”. If you gain about 1fps by pushing the bow hand excessively, you get something like 1% more power to the arrow. That must have been the thing that made all the differences back then.
It is the more difference the lower poundage you use. Generally if you have the hardest bow you can handle, and you enemy's armor can stop your arrow half the time, the you naturally take any measures to make sure you pierce it. Also if your enemy does not wear armour, but stands just behind you effective range. Sport archery takes such problems away from you, because it only concentrates on hitting target.
@@PetrKavan bs. dynamic efficiency and oer set by tiller at draw length and a clean release can change speed within 10fps
@@mortenjacobsen5673 But that does not deny other ways to increase speed, does it?
@@PetrKavan it does , its set unless its a self bow or composite effected by weather and temp, hitting the gas pedal harder dont give your car more horse power
@@mortenjacobsen5673 That is a very invalid analogy. You can increase speed of arrow just by walking forward during release. It has nothing to do with khatra, but it is undeniable example of a way to arrow speed increase that has nothing to do with clean release or bow properties.
Khatra
the release and khatra/follow trough are reactions. they are not actions. expansion is an actions. 🙏
People dont seem to agree on this...
From 5:17 is just what he thinks, after.all he just started
I'm interested in traditional archery. I wanna have a horse bow. but I'm afraid if I break it, I would have to buy a new bow. I'm not ready to spend a lot of money for one, let alone two. Take down recurve is a better choice, I think. If I break it, I just buy the limbs which would be cheaper.
How on earth do you intend to break a bow? Run it over with a semi-trailer?
@@NUSensei I'm afraid if I overuse it it might break. I saw someone break one on his face.
@@waitingisfun Overuse doesn't lead to breakage. Breaks like that are either a manufacturing fault, or delamination due to poor storage.
Or my fear is irrational. I should buy the horse bow, then.
@@waitingisfun if you that worried get a custom bow with a really long draw length I recommend Fairbow
Pushing the bow or Katra does nothing. If you film both methods then slow it down you will see the arrow is already past the riser by the time you move the bow. And if you think about it a tuned arrow bends around the riser so there is no contact. It's just for looks.
the arrow doesn't need to bend round the bow using khatra though you can use it to shoot any spine arrow as long as it's over spined with the correct consistent technique the arrow will go dead straight every time. i think people who say it's moving the handle out of the way have it wrong its the extra torque in the string that guides the arrow away from the handle works well for me and seemingly everyone who gets the hang of the timing/technique. ruclips.net/video/U0-xOTORPEU/видео.html
@@brettalizer3271 Practice and you do it right perfect time works. it works for me although I can shoot without executing the techniques of more than 700 years ago mediterranean styles some 100 years.try you can't do too.✌
@@brettalizer3271 paradox exist on both side oscillation is only reversed
@@mortenjacobsen5673 it shure does but not not when you use khatra/correct back tension it is at least negated and the arrow goes straight see for yourself ruclips.net/video/U0-xOTORPEU/видео.html
Can we shut down this "mediterranean release is only 100 years old" rubbish yet? The Assyrians are shown to be using the med. release in 600BC. - over 2000 years ago. Armin is a great guy but he was wrong about this so stop quoting him as if it's fact.
Edit: www.alamy.com/stock-photo-assyrian-army-archers-while-one-shoots-the-arrow-the-other-is-protecting-30784049.html Picture of Assyrian archer using med. release from 865 BC - so actually nearer 3000 years old.
The term "khatra' seems to imply some exotic magical eastern technique. In reality it is simply torqueing the bow Forward or sideways to gain a semblance of good arrow flight with traditional equipment. It is also said to produce more power to the shot. I very much doubt this when compared to a good western style follow through. This is what we are talking about "follow through" and its various styles. Every well taught western archer will learn that lateral movement is detrimental to consistency. Torqueing the bow is lateral movement to the line of the shot. When an archer is under any kind of pressure is when potentially inconsistent techniques fall apart. A western archer using tuned equipment and inline follow through will always be superior with regard to consistency and not inferior in any way with regard to power of the shot. Torqueing a bow with some equipment and styles may be a necessary evil but it will never be superior in any way with regard to consistency and resultant accuracy.
I see that they do this in kyudo also
Have you seen this video ruclips.net/video/ULpSXZRoUJ8/видео.html It explains one of the problem modern Olympic style archery has to overcome, inertia. if you draw back the bowstring and then stop and hold for the perfect shot, inertia has to be overcome and that slows the arrow speed. Also Armin Hirmer explain he uses the muscle in his bow hand to initiate the release of the string, meaning both hands are active in the release. something to consider.
careful or shad will think you are addressing him and make another macranty
Its only natural .
Hi! I hope you and your family's are fine. Cheers my Friend✌😀
@@miguelveratraditionalarche9374
All good miguel .😄
Did some shooting but no filming .
Tested new ideas .
Nice T shirt 🙂
My son got a kids bow for Christmas and and I shoot at a piece of plywood he tried to penetrate it the normal way and the arrow bounced off but he lurched forward and the arrow went into the target all the way to the feathers I was amazed and I'm gonna try it with my selfbow when I find a sturdy target because mine goes through anyway it does work Try throwing a hard jab with the bow hand during the release I seen him do it it works
is it possible to pull this off with a high poundage bow? i mean im used to my draw but i want more power to my shots so all the energy im using is worth it
yes watch Justin ma pull 100lbs ,but the power of the bow is set by the tiller at a certain draw length, for better efficiency you need to achieve a higher dynamic efficiency with tuned arrows brace height and string strand count and material
My understanding is that with a high poundage bow it is actually easier to do it like this, as opposed to a more static release which gets much harder with higher draw weights.
@@Tennouseijin Yes, releasing without waiting at full draw reduces muscle fatigue and will allow more full draws during the same period of time. That said, it will be harder to be consistent with each draw and so will require more training to compensate.
Power is purely determined by the length of the draw, given the same bow, whether you use one hand, two hands, or both hands and both feet to achieve the same draw length, make absolutely no difference.
Tilting the bow forward after you shoot makes absolutely no difference at as well, since your wrist is pathetically weak in comparison to the string in tension. It would make a difference if you can run really fast, while you shoot, maybe on horseback, that would add a bit more power to the shot.
how much research you did before making this video?? Wikipedia??
You sound mad. Are you mad?
@@Kid-cs9ms the words dose not have sounds so how do i sound is based on your assumption! same as your resent videos which are not knowledgeable. These kind of review videos without any strong scientific backup just reduce your validity as a archery commentator.
@@arshia1981 there are not many sources, if you know of any i would like to know, I have done research on arab archery myself, kyodo, arab, marmaluke, korean, pleas tell us of more sources
Shooting "with two arms" I think it is extremely inaccurate,,, moving your bow at the moment You shoot You loose the bow's balance, so You can do it if you shoot at something near You, and without being too accurate, not a competition target, but an animal and so on,, (or a man!!,! 😂😂😂😂😆😆😆😆) ! Serious..
then i shoot my olympic bow with push and pull