I am a retired UK airline pilot with a tad under 20K hours, which includes a few thousand on light to medium twins. This has got to be the best channel out there for disseminating post crash information. I learn something every time I tune in. Thanks for taking the time to produce these interesting and informative videos Juan.
I am a "seasoned" pilot with 2500 hours over 40 years. I just got my multi-engine (it's about time!) and I really wish this video was available before I trained. This was a really interesting detailing of spin recovery... and avoidance. The dance with VMC during training and then on the check ride was disconcerting, and frankly not fully elaborated. I will send this video to anyone I know going into multi training. Thanks Juan.
With over 7000 hours in mostly tailwheel, I always felt that i'd be great at multi-engine...till I took a few ride with friends in their twins. They demonstrated some single-engine VMC stuff, let me try it some, and it was quite easy, but I didn't particularly enjoy it. That's when I decided to continue banner towing as a full career instead of going to corporate or airlines. There's just something enjoyable about the adrenaline rush of picking up the banner and constantly flying right at stall speed all day. lol
Bettrer later than never; very good for you to build a new set of skills. Juan is telling truth about Vmca, stalls, and spins. Center of gravity is a serious factor too. My multiengine instructors were so adamant about "flying first" and not ever getting slow enough to flirt with stalls or Vmca.
well with light twins its because the safety margins are too narrow even for an instructor to catch. Engine out exercises in twins are dangerous .Reminds me of helicopters like the R22 .. look how many of those that have crashed ..and one reason? .. engine failure with a safety margin of about 1.7 sec max to switch to autorotation or you die . I don't want to fly in aircraft on the edge with 1.7 sec between life and death .
He had more than 1500 hours. This comment, along with this entire video bashing him for making a mayday call, is just complete ignorance. To say that because he was on the radio that he wasn't trying to do proper technique or maneuvering to get out of the flat spin situatuon is just ludicrous. I am obviously biased, as the CFI is a longtime friend of mine. However, knowing him offers several advantages, as I know his experience and the culture of safety that he promoted and strived for. I'm not saying my friend wasn't at fault, as he was the CFI/MEI and maybe didn't react quickly or realize what was happening before it did, but he was experienced, safety minded, a damn good pilot and good person. Thus, I appreciate videos like this that help explain the situation to the public and aviation community, but the ignorant comments on hours/experience, and the bashing of someone who lost their life just gets old.
You bet! Maybe the only helo that auto rotates worse is a Hughes TH 55. Which used to be the Army primary trainer. We started started engine out drills at 1000 AGL. And recovered at 100 ft. The first time I autorotated a 206, I didn’t realize we were in AR the difference was so great. Let’s face it, if you’re on an airline track, you’ll never do a VMC demo once you get your multi. Let’s just stop this crap before we kill more people.@@danobrien3601
That call out to ATC was basically the equivalent to people calling out to their mom, at the point of death. Sadly, as a Combat Medic, I've heard that voice before. R.I.P. to both of them.
I know Juan hasn’t been in a flight school in quite some time, but I thought it odd to rage on about the atc call. We’re taught to make the call. Obviously not so ATC can fly the plane, but to let atc know where to route other traffic and find the crash site and send help if someone should survive. Yes, a female passenger a few months back did survive in the rear seat of the same kind of crash. I miss McSpadden’s debriefs.
@@fivestarAZ - my father in law was a radio operator at a weather station up north in the sixties and one day heard a guy screaming for help as he spun in after losing it in IMC. He had enough altitude he was on the radio for a good while before dying on impact. I definitely get the impression it haunts him still.
@@darthheretic129 The key point that Juan was making is the same one made in bold letters in Beach POH. The longer you allow the situation to continue the more difficult the recovery. Since we can't truly multitask, calling in a Mayday and describing the situation to ATC (who first didn't understand the message) is an absolute waste of time and in this situation those milliseconds are the difference between life and death. The odds of falling through the sky onto another aircraft while in a practice fields are near zero compared to the inevitable doom of the spin.
You’re absolutely correct! We don’t need to prove the book Vmc speed. When I checked out in the Aztec, my instructor would only let me demonstrate Vmc with 1/2 rudder. We’re demonstrating a concept, not certifying the Vmc speed! Problem…. Some DPEs will only accept full rudder. Hence, problems
The DPE should be advised prior to the ride by the applicant and the instructor that limited amount of rudder will be applied during the demo, otherwise cancel the ride and notify FAA.
@@DM-hd4xm Agreed, there's a big difference between saying this is the way it will be flown and flying it that way, and doing something the DPE was not warned about. In the second situation, they can only assume it's sloppy execution.
This is exactly what happened to me on my travel air checkride. One moment we were stalling and the next we were upside down. The only thing I believe saved me us is that I did a lot of spins for my aerobatics rating. Poor instructor was like a deer in the headlights. Very lucky and very scary.
@@mrbmp09 I did. It did highlight do me how dangerous stalls could be in a light twin. There were loose object all over the cabin. I don’t think my instructor has ever done a spin and was still white afterwards. The loss of altitude was also super impressive even though we have gone through at the most 1.5 rotations. Also made me realise how quick it happens. Was as fast as a snap roll.
In retrospect there is no need to continue to fly that deeply into a stall especially with asymmetrical power. On the other hand, no one does spin training in singles anymore, which I feel will be very valuable. Even just to experience it.
Hearing that oscillating wind noise in the background of the atc call is just chilling, may they rest in peace. Strength, love and courage to those they left behind.
My first airplane instructor was a low time kid who was an excellent instructor. Early 1970. At the time, I needed 5 hours solo and the recommendation of a flight instructor for my airplane single engine land to be added to my commercial Rotorcraft helicopter. I had just got out of the Army as a Warrant Officer helicopter aviator and passed my civilian written test. There was no check ride required for military pilots converting to civilian ratings in the type aircraft the flew in the military. I had just about 2000 hours of helicopter time with 1600 plus in combat as a pilot, aircraft commander and instructor pilot. The GI bill was paying the bill so all I had to do was pass an oral and check ride. With a total of 22 hours airplane time, I was a commercial pilot. Passed my instrument check ride and multi engine check ride with less than 75 hours airplane time. I still was not 23 so I could not take my ATP training. All training was done in Piper aircraft. Multi engine was in an Aztec (Aztruck). Now that I am 76 and a retired airline pilot, I think civilian pilot training is a disaster from day one to your first type ratting. Flight training needs to be rethought with more done in ground procedures trainers and motion simulators. It has to be cheaper, safer and produce a much better pilot.
Civilian training is a reflection of the trainers (instructors) chief pilots and owners - the school I taught at (1600 hours as an instructor with a 96% pass rate) always blocked the rudder, EVERYONE knew, and everyone stayed at 4000 feet in Texas so we never had problems - why did this kid NOT know? It’s embarrassing that an industry is so poorly organized that things I took for granted as basic knowledge simply aren’t taught, without fail, at every school. I was fortunate to have great instructors…but it was just luck. Maybe at another school, it would have been different. Man…it’s very disappointing. This is basic stuff. That’s why Juan is frustrated. It’s BASIC.
I took had my CP in 69. My instructors were pilots in 1938 and 1948 and old school learning saved me a lot of bad experiences. Yes, instructing went to hell in mid 70s when the drive-em-up & down mentality took over the industry. After 2 episodes early on I said that I will never fly unless I'm at the controls. Period. (except airlines)
@@hotrodray6802 Right. You can be a good pilot, and killed by many pilot errors from a bad pilot. Exp. Richard MacSpadden of AOPA safety and many others. I dont fly with bad pilots..
This is the same story that the Twin Comanche went through way back in the 70s. The Twinkie got a bad rap for so many bad outcomes in Vmc demos. Training was changed to having the instructor block the rudder so that the Vmc affect could be seen way before the stall was actually approached. Back then the FAA even required that the Vmc demo had to be demonstrated at low altitude in order to enhance the visual affect of the importance of doing it correct. THAT was changed after several crashes. Forget history and we are bound to repeat it!!!
Juan I see and hear your frustration and sadness about these totally preventable tragedies. You are the best there is at explaining what went wrong and how NOT TO DO IT! Thank you for what you do. Blessings.
As of a study in 2017, the average Flight Instructor was 23 and only instructed for 10 months. Just enough time to get into the right seat of a regional. I totally agree with your assessment.
Not a pilot, but… That sounds like a good way to not have useful life lessons for trainers to convey -> it’ll kill. Not that young trainers are worthless - no, but generally they won’t have the experience of encountering a true in-flight emergency, and how that can affect the thought process of the pilot. What’s most crucial is not how it affects a pilot during an emergency - it’s how the experience affects their flying going forward -> what changes do they make to their flying, and why? Those lessons won’t all be written in books.
@@yamkaw346That’s patently false. Retired airline pilots CFI all the time. They don’t need the money. They love teaching and flying for free. It’s called passion.
Great explanation. I'm glad the MEI that I flew with was aware of this condition. He would apply Rudder pressure with his foot just like you described. I didn't understand it at first, but I'm glad he did!
That upside down flip also happens in a 172 when practicing spins. One of the huge advantages of those planes, is that they are approved for spins if the weight is kept below the utility weight threshold, which was 2000lbs...at least in ours. Skyhawks really don't like to spin so you have to add a bunch of energy to kick things off...especially with a big boy or two in the seats. The way we did it was to get to a safe altitude (for us it was 4000' AGL) then get really slow and as the horn was blaring, add full left rudder and a healthy shot of gas. That unit would snap onto its back in a heartbeat. But like I said, they really don't like to spin so you have to keep rudder in and stick all the way back and even then, it would usually flop out of the spin on its own. What a 172 really does like to do, is spiral. That's the puppy that tears wings off of inadvertent IMC aircraft. It's usually a subtle thing at first. Basically, it starts off as a gentle, coordinated turn. If it happens during a boring part of cruise, you might not even notice. Before too long, the increasing G load may get your attention but then you're trying to figure out WTF...so what happens when you notice the altimeter unwinding? You pull back while in a steep, diving, accelerating, turn and BLAMO! Maybe you snap into an extra violent accelerated spin/stall. Maybe you lose a wing. Spin recovery won't always work with a spiral dive and could make it worse. The first rule of spiral recovery, is knowing that you're in a spiral. Juan, I would be very interested in your take on spiral dives. To my way of thinking (and of course there are plenty of exceptions) spins are more of a low, slow, patter problem...and spirals are a cruise killer. With a spin, it's the ground that's the killer. A spiral can tear a plane apart without hitting a thing. Thanks for doing what you do.
Most aircraft will flop onto their backs when entering a spin from forward flight, the type of aircraft isn't really important. If you're moving forward, a spin is temporarily a snap roll, as you still have quite a bit of forward speed. If you're fast enough to catch it in a single rotation, congrats, you just snap rolled your plane back to mostly level flight like a boss. A snap roll becomes an actual spin if you let it keep going (assuming the plane obliges), at which point you lose all forward speed and trade it for vertical speed instead. The plane will rotate around it's CG, so it's simply rotating around whatever the plane's trajectory is. If its trajectory is forward, then you're going to flop over on your back like you did a snap roll and will continue to do so until your trajectory points downward. With most GA aircraft that happens around the second or third rotation unless it's accelerated, or the aircraft is particularly snappy. Cherokees and 172's are so bad at them (I guess that makes them...good?) that you basically have to hold power, rudder, up elevator, and sometimes even aileron to keep it in a spin, and recoveries are usually hands off.
I currently live in Huntsville, AL and I currently work at a flying club in the area as a mechanic, and I heard about this crash through the people I work with. It shook me a little bit because I myself have been learning to fly, and have recently scheduled my check ride, which I'm very confident I'll pass. At the club I fly and work at, my instructors have always emphasized the phrase, "Aviate, navigate, communicate", especially in an engine failure and a spin, which the club instructors also emphasize. My instructor always drilled the acronym PAER in my head. Power idle. Ailerons neutral. Elevators down. Opposite rudder. Eventually I want to fly for the airlines myself, but at the same time, I don't want to rush my training. Because I want to be as safe a pilot as I can. And learning from the accidents is one way I think will make me a safe pilot. When people say students are being rushed through flight training, I don't have any doubt in that statement at all. In the Huntsville area there is also flight school called Revolution Flight, which this travel air belonged to. I have heard very shady things about Revolution Flight in almost every aspect. Training, maintenance, management, and business. I'd be hard pressed to think part of the cause of this crash was because of the way training is conducted at Revolution Flight. But I'll wait for the NTSB report before I make any assumptions. I would also think part of the problem with bad training is instructors not giving their full attention to their students, because they're just using flight instructing to get to the airlines as quickly as possible. I'm very blessed to have been assigned to an instructor who deeply cares for his students, and does a thorough job in making sure his students are ready for their check rides, both knowledge wise, and flight skill wise.
Our mechanic at our club(50yr pilot) warned me that I had the only good instructor on the roster and to go other places for my instrument rating now that he's unavailable. Seems the quality control acoss the board has dropped significantly.
The problem with flight instructing is money and regulations by people who don’t know anything. As an instructor 1 - you don’t get paid enough to ever live in anything other than a small apartment. 2 - almost every student you get comes to you expecting to be finished at the minimum hours and sometimes fight back at what you have planned even when they’re struggling doing some required maneuvers. 3 - even if you didn’t want to instruct, unless your family runs it’s own aviation business or charter operation you’re likely not going to find another flying job besides instructing until you’ve done about 1500 hours flying in circles As a student 1 - you are paying a TON of money to fly something that is way simpler and less complex than most cars. 2 - planes are expensive because of supply and anytime someone has an accident, litigious dickheads try and sue everyone for what their worth, further driving up the cost.
I soloed in 1972 and retired in 2015 - initially Alaska-style bush flying (minus the bush, this was in Iceland where the weather is even nastier and bush is hard to find). The absolutely best advice I ever got was before my solo flight: If the airplane starts behaving funny, UNLOAD (reduce the angle of attack)! When the airplane behaves again, fly out of it. If you mucked up at a too low altitude, you are in deep shite... The same applies if you abuse a light twin (or any multi-engine aircraft for that matter) at altitude; revert the airplane to a C150 mode - chop power and take it from there. If you are struggling on one engine shortly after takeoff, you do not have that luxury, do things by the book or become a statistic. No fumbling around...
@@Hiram1000 I am Icelandic, and use this word as an attempt to avoid censure, not to mention that I like it! According to genetic research I am likely to be up to 70% Irish on my maternal side, something I find good reason to be proud of.
I’m sharing this story in case it saves someone else’s life. My MEI entered a Vmc-induced stall-spin during training in a PA-44 at 14,000 feet. The ONLY way they were able to recover was for the instructor to climb up onto the glare shield while his student performed the PARE recovery items. Full elevator down wasn’t enough to break out of it; the instructor had to physically move forward as far as possible to adjust the airplane’s CG enough for the nose to drop. Had they been lower, they would’ve perished. Might be worth adding to your toolkit; you never know if you may need it.
@@TheFlyingZulu Yeah, it’s a pretty incredible and active mindset shift from normal training ops to, “I have to unbuckle my seatbelt and climb forward to put myself at additional risk because our current situation is 100% unsurvivable. If this doesn’t work, we’re no worse off.” It’s an awesome example of the old pilot adage “never stop flying the airplane” in action. He never gave up, and that’s why he’s still alive.
@@Banshee365 Yeah, it's kind of a win-lose situation. By getting higher, you give yourself more time to recover from a potential spin, but by being higher you also get closer/farther into the potential stall-spin envelope
Juan this was an excellent expose into WHY GETTING SPIN TRAINING AND/OR A SPIN ENDORSEMENT IS SO IMPORTANT TO SAFETY. Years ago the FAA decided that stall awareness and unusual attitude training was sufficient enough for the initial PPL, where in most other countries they still teach spins, getting in and getting out of them. From my years of general interest in aviation I already knew in general the procedure for getting out of a spin, but it took me reading about them in the Airplane Flying Handbook (which is available FREE online because we pay taxes) when I wrote my lesson plan for my endoresment, and it talks about why every step in PARE is designed the way it is, what each action does to reduce the aggravated stall or how doing the opposite could make things worse. Aerobatics, I agree, is such an eye opener to learning about the dynamics of flight, someday, I want to do more aerobatics when I have the time and means.
@@adotintheshark4848uh, so you have a clue if you get onto it by accident? Otherwise by the same logic why practice any other emergency procedure that results from human error- just tell the students "don't do this" and it will be fine right???
Way more people die in twins with an engine actually out VMC into the ground than do in the demos. @@philipjamesparsons The demo is harmless if they actually follow procedure, which as Juan pointed out, very possibly not doing it that day. There is also no requirement to go to the limit, you can block full application of rudder to simulate it.
Juan, that flat spin demonstration was impressive. Me flying twins for over a decade and I didn’t know that applying power flattens and exacerbates a spin. No wonder they tell you to do incipient stalls only, NEVER to full developed ones either in sim and much less in aircraft. I’m rewatching and sharing.
It's also worth adding to the spin recovery checklist, regardless of number of engines: POWER TO IDLE. If you don't, some aircraft will NOT recover, which is why some are thought to have augered in despite seemingly correct recovery technique.
We do full stalls in the sim. Its required as part of the UPRT training all airline pilots get. Everyone should be doing full stalls in the sim, it's not dangerous. And honestly, if the aircraft type is capable, you should be doing full stalls in it to. If someone told me they weren't practicing full stalls in their cub or 172 I'd say they're too afraid of the airplane and to get more training.
The US Army suffered loss of life accidents in then B-55 Barons due to Vmc demonstrations because the demonstrations were taken to full yaw loss of control. They found that less than a 5x3" strip exists on the rudder to recover from a spin due to the airflow blanket produced from the horizontal stab and elevator. Later the limit was defined to any indication of control problem such as stall warning, not full directional control loss. This is well discussed in all later Baron Beechcraft POH's. When observed, the Army then had much fewer demo induced spin accidents. To this day, all Baron manuals feature this discussion and limitation. I don't know about the Travel Air, but sensor indication limitation is now observed in many of the airline training academy's. Sorry to go on, but this rudder problem in the Baron is considered a classic example of DIPE, design induced pilot error, something in the design of the aircraft that lures the pilot into a critical mistake. In modern aircraft these problems exist everywhere. You might find this an interesting problem to discuss on a later video. Of course, the training actions you discussed should be taught to MEL instructors and of course, observed. Good job, thanks Juan.
A picture is worth a thousand words and a video has to be worth a million. Thanks Juan for the video. Some of us are visual learners and emotions combined with a person speaking brings dry text instructions to life.
Juan, great analysis and advice for MEI’s. I did multi engine instruction in PA-44’s and BE-76’s…42 years ago as an MEI. Those airplanes have counter rotating props which eliminate the critical engine, but still you needed to be careful doing VMCA demos. Blocking the rudder is a great solution. Thank you. All MEI’s need to hear this. Also, we need more spin training. So many new pilots are terrified of practicing spins.
This is a life saving video. Should be required viewing for every single multi engine student and instructor. Thank you Juan. I did not have an appreciation for this concept before watching this.
My first aerobatic flight lesson my instructor and I were running the prestart checklists. He then showed a billy club to me. He said, "if I tell you to get off the controls and you dont, I'll use this!". We never had a problem.
That's pretty funny....LOL. My introduction to spin training was with a very slight female CFI. She was no more than 5 foot even, and maaaayyyybe 105 pounds. On our first spin in a C-152, after several turns, and recovery, she admitted that she tried to block the rudder on this first one to just enter a spiral, but my larger frame and strength easily over powered her attempt. The lesson I learned that day had nothing to do with spins. The lesson was as a CFI, you need to go over the planned flight with the student, and keep no secrets, like blocking a rudder pedal. Everyone in a training cockpit has to have all of the plan, and be fully in the loop.
Kershner, who wrote the Advanced Pilot's flight manual, said one of those VMC departures takes about 6000' to recover from. They probably didn't have that, and it also takes the knowledge of how to do the recovery.
What an excellent presentation and explanation, Juan! Until now I've wondered why flat spins aren't recoverable by adding power, and you've explained it. You channel is a real treasure trove of knowledge, experience and aviation wisdom. So happy to be a subscriber. Many thanks!
The 1500 hour rule just meant I had no interest in pursuing airlines anymore. Now that I can finally afford training I can't (or dont want to) afford the pay cut I'd have to take to pursue that career track.
Well said Juan. Sad to see these accidents happening so frequently. After I obtained my initial PPL, I found a flight school with a 150 aerobat and took lessons on spin recoveries.
If memory serves, twins are not required to demonstrate spin recovery for certification.....unlike a single. As a flight instructor I had to recover from a spin induced during power on stalls in a C172 during a BFR. Two different pilots made the same mistake like you mentioned, they tried to use aileron instead of rudder to keep a wing up during the stall and we went right into a spin. Funny how that happens! I did something similar to what you did. After becoming a flight instructor (and before these incidents!) I rented a C152 and climbed to 10,000 and did spin recovery after spin recovery, sure was fun and probably saved my life!
I learned to fly in Rhodesia in the 70’s. Single engine spin recovery was a big part of my training. I was told to go to the training area, D4 and practice solo spins and recovery time and time again. When I received my FAA license, I was surprised to learn that this maneuver is not taught in the PPL curriculum. I believe that all pilots should learn spin recovery. Edit: I learned to fly on a PA28-140.
It's one thing to pass the mandatory exams, it's an entirely different thing to live and breathe the ideas that encourage the type of aviation safety mindset you're advocating.
Juan, your analysis and commentary *will* save lives by raising awareness among pilots. What you do on RUclips is an incredibly important public service. Thank you sir.
Great video and a reminder that the rudder can stall as well. I still remember my multi training from 30 years ago, dead foot dead engine BLUELINE! (More of course but you get the idea).
Amazing video! 1. As an 1150 hour pilot who's career was killed by the 1500 hour rule. Thank you so much for what you said. I'm still bitter all these years later. 2. Your comment about the instructor needing to be on the rudder is spot on! I almost was in a similar fate in a Travel-Air when my student took his foot off the rudder to stretch it 10mph from Vmc. That's the only time I have ever yelled at a student. Scared me to death. RIP to the pilots. Very sad.
The 1500 hour rule hasn't killed your career. Go to one of the flight schools that has the 1000-hour or 1200-hour waiver, or go to a 135 operation, or be a flight instructor.
@@kickinit8314It was 2010. The fight school I was at discontinued fixed wing and stuck with rotorcraft. A lot of pilots were laid off from the airlines at the time because of the economy. So every other school within 100 miles didn't have an opening for a CFI. I was young and unsure what to do at the time. Then the 1500 hour rule hit in 2011. I had no path to obtain it at that point. And I got a non aviation degree because that's what every pilot told me to do. So I couldn't do the R-ATP mins. Long story short it was a different time. Imagine paying money to sit in the right seat of a Beech 1900.
When I was a MEII, the first thing I did was teach the same things mentioned in the video before attempting VMCA demo. The main thing which I taught was recovery should be at the onset of stall OR loss of directional control whichever comes FIRST. I always found that theoretical knowledge was a key point to completing these maneuvers safely. RIP to the pilots…
Ron I love your passion to educate and get people learning from these tragic incidents. I'm not an aviator, but my field of emergency medicine / critical care shares very similar challenges of rapidly-evolving high risk situations and behaviour traps. The Dunning-Kruger pitfall of moderate experience producing risky boldness is so dangerous - I spend a lots of time coaching junior clinicians in how to stay in their competence envelope. Love your work - lots of lessons for non-aviation safety.
Nice summation. In all my years of flying (in the USAF, in the Tweet with students, in the T-38, the U-2, airlines) my ATP training in a Duchess was, in my opinion, the most hazardous flying I’ve ever done. There’s so little margin in a light twin and you’re so close to the ground, there’s little room for error. Yes, yes, yes, instructors guard the controls and be ready for anything.
I am not a pilot, have experienced a single engine spin as a passenger. Your explanation and video made into layman’s terms made it crystal clear why, how and what to do. Awesome!
Juan, you are very gifted with your knowledge and understanding of the current situation…I had 10 years in the Air Force and 32 with United..I was very fortunate. However, I had to spend 17 years 17 years, I repeat myself, 17 years as a Flight engineer… No regrets there, it was 17 years of watching other people flying… The good and the bad. The point is that there was a marked difference in the copilots I observed …you might say half were ex military, and half were FNG’s who had only a couple of hundred hours and an instrument rating… I will say that the better pilots, in my opinion, were the low time kids. Also, there’s my understanding that Lufthansa train their pilots in Arizona from the start… In my opinion, there is never been a problem. Thanks for all you do.😅
I was fortunate to have an MEL instructor who knew how to block the rudder during Vmc demo. I could feel it. He was building time for an ATP. Young and Good. Choose your CFI like you choose your doctor.
I appreciate all the good you do. As a commercial pilot student and aircraft owner, I seek out as much training as possible. I hope more pilots see this video and learn as much as possible.
I just had my Commercial Multi Engine checkride two days ago, and all of my training for VMC Demos involved the instructor blocking the rudder with his foot. The DPE, however, wanted a full demonstration and did not use his foot to block the rudder pedal. I was sat on the maneuver, but it was very sloppy and I saw my DPE jump up and almost take control of the aircraft.
Excellent discussion, with extremely clear explanation of the aerodynamics involved! I couldn't agree more. I got my CFI-ME in 1977 and went on to fly DC-3's and 40 years flying airline jets (7 jet type ratings). I have owned a Travel Air like this one, and now a Baron over the last 33 years. CFI's used to have to attend a 3 day FAA Instructor refresher course every 2 years. I remember a video that was shown of a Piper Aztec spin recovery. The airplane was equipped with a drag Chute, and D rings to jettison the door, while the test pilot wore a parachute. After a couple of turns the Aztec was in a flat spin. Shortly, you see the drag chute deploy and the airplane keeps spinning. Off comes the door and you watch the pilot's chute deploy and the Aztec bore a hole in the ground. If you think you are going to recover from a spin in a light twin---think again! I refuse to obtain a BFR in my Baron; I don't want any instructor 'surprises'. I find a single engine airplane for that. I don't believe you should do a VMC demonstration more than once in any light twin! This is like practicing a forced landing in a single where you actually have to land off airport. Let's stop the carnage!
11:40... normal prop rotation, spinning to the RIGHT... added power pushes the nose down... upright to the left, added power pulls the nose up... the effect of added power is due to the gyroscopics...
Juan thank you. Ok I ain’t a pilot and I have never taken a lesson but I watch your show religiously. This video well I don’t get any of it but I can say this. Without doubt everybody should pay heed to this man’s insight and comments on this issue. I know when Juan is serious and is asking everyone to sit and listen and this is that video. All you pilots out there who are learning and instructing well sit back in your chair for ten minutes and digest every word and insight this man is giving you. It will save your life. Peace.
For to those who are not pilots are probably wasting their time with this because it is over their head....might want to spend the time reading basic flight instructional manuals
Every low hour twin pilot should watch this video as many times as it takes to see the light. You should do a video of stall recovery in a twin with the differences between a stall with each engine out. It is crazy to keep losing lives this way. You are doing great work Juan. Keep it up.
I talked to a guy from an airline who said that 1500 hours of flight time just means that pilots end up with more bad habits to unlearn when they make it to an airline.
Fly R/C with a high time South West Pilot and thats exactly what he said it takes a Lot to Untrain their Bad Habbits at 1500 hours as opposed to when they had just 300. He also in 1990 when he started SW required 4000+ hrs. Mainly there were Enough Canadates avaiable.
Semi agree if the pilot goes from all rating and certificates and flies professionally say for a good flight school or part 135 he/she will be a solid pilot by 1500, however if a person is allowed to be unsupervised and allowed to become lazy/not striving to become a better pilot yes 1500 is useless. Someone that buys a plane and just flies VFR without being pressed to become a better pilot and enforce good habits is one example of being a disservice to the 1500 hour rule.
Juan, 2 years ago you posted a King Air skydiver stall spin caught on video. Great video. Shows the partial snap roll you are talking about on camera. You might want to link it here. I also thought that with military or college aviation training you could apply to airlines with 750 hours or 1,000 hours respectively. Is this correct? How many hours do you need to fly fighters or right seat transport aircraft in the Air Force? I will note that since the crash that caused this knee jerk reaction (Colgan?) U.S. airline safety has improved. Always thought anti yaw engine power would help, did not realize power flattened spins.
Decades ago, the Aviation Consumer publication ran a story on light twins and stall spin. IIRC, in the PA-30 and Baron you had about 3 or 4 seconds to initiate the right moves in the event of a critical engine failure during climb out.
Several years ago Beechcraft flight test engineers determined that if a spin in a Baron was allowed to develop beyond 3/4 of a turn it would become unrecoverable.
Wow Juan, I feel your frustration with yet another, easily preventable, tragic waste. You hit every bullet point. This video should be mandatory watching for all twin Instructors, pilots and students.
I earned my multi in 369BB and walked by it with my wife on the ramp at HSV Sunday night before the accident and said "hey" to old Bravo Bravo. I knew the instructor and flew with him a few times last year. He was a great guy, very smart and very professional. It was heartbreaking to hear a voice I know so well in that situation. I'm approaching 700 hours of flying time and if I've learned anything since getting my PPL it's that the ACS only teaches the bare minimum of skills and information you will need to become a proficient, SAFE pilot. If you're a student pilot and think you'll be done learning when you pass your checkride, there's a pretty good chance you'll end up in one of these videos. I follow Blanco, Gryder, Scott Perdue, Jason Schappert and several others in an effort to understand more and to keep these things in the front of my mind every single time I prepare to fly. If you're going to fly airplanes, you must be commited to continuing education and mastery of the airplanes you fly. These things do not forgive the mistakes, distractions or slight lapses of judgement that we are ALL prone to as human beings. Rest in peace Nikul.
Thank you Juan for sharing your experience as well as others to make aviation a safer place. Awareness of the consequences of ignorance in our shared passion for flying keeps us all safer. Keep training and always get better. Thanks again Juan.
Veteran pilot Art Scholl was killed in a movie stunt gone horribly wrong, during the filming of Top Gun , in a Pitts - he got into an unrecoverable inverted flat spin ; there was some speculation that the exterior camera mount on his airplane affected the CG or airflow over the rudder making it useless against the spin.
Juan, I still remember the T-37 spin recovery almost 48 years later..... Throttles - Idle Rudder and Ailerons - Neutral Stick - Abruptly Full Aft and Hold Rudder - Abruptly apply Full Rudder Opposite the Direction of the Spin and Hold One Turn After Applying Opposite Rudder - Stick Abruptly Full Forward Controls Neutral and recover from the Dive
Not necessarily. You could have gotten into the stall without full aft stick. (cross control or accelerated stall). And most times when a spin starts the first reaction is using aileron and neutral stick. And it could be an inverted spin.....The procedure was tried and true for that plane.
I teach spin entry and recovery in gliders. I hammer the student when he uses aileron in recovery. Using the aileron to pick up the low wing increases the drag/yaw force that increases the spin and reduces the rudder effectiveness. The drag from the aileron is fighting the rudder.
Juan, once again your concern at the incidents is palpable. I salute your knowledge and analysis in these videos. When I was 18 I had ambitions to be a pilot (I'm in my 60s now!). That never happened, but, in some ways I'm glad, as I'm not sure i could have mastered the multitude of factors you describe in order to maintain safety in all parts of the flight envelope. Keep up the good work!
I appreciate your insights! quit flying after a series of low hour pilots messed up and paid the ultimate price. One was a Vmca-gone-wrong about 10 miles from my house. At nearly 350hrs in helicopters and about 60 hours in fixed wing… it seemed insane to me what dangerous maneuvers low time instructors were expected to teach. My life is worth more than achieving another 1,100 hours of flying risky maneuvers or being pressured to fly in risky conditions, especially in ops that don’t require a SMS! Wonder why there’s a pilot shortage? It’s too risky and too expensive to meet the 1,500 hour minimums to get a safe job. Simple as that
Juan, thank you for the emphasis you placed on the lesson you provided us today. Really made us sit up straight and pay attention. You are saving lives with your podcasts!
That’s a strange priority, humanity over insights that act as knowledge to prevent future crashes. “Humanity while recapping” doesn’t save a pilot in a spin but more knowledge from this guy’s insights might.
Such a excellent description of recovery from inadvertently entering a spin in light multi engine aircraft. There is "PARE" Recovery if your not sure of spin recovery: P - Power Idle A - Ailerons Netural R - Rudder Full Opposite Of Rotation E - Elevator Forward Stick
Busy trying to conclude my UPRT and get that all important airline job before the window of opportunity closes. This resonates very well with me. Condolences to the bereaved.
Excellent presentation, as usual. When I was a CFI-MEL eons ago, we blocked the rudder. I had no idea if a 160 hp Apache would recover from a spin, and I didn't want to die trying to find out.
Completely avoidable death. FAA needs to send an AC to all flight schools in the country that have a light twin in their fleet and have them attest to have communicated guidance to their instructors not to allow these planes to reach a stall during VMc demos. To only allow these demonstrations in a manner, as Juan recommended, by limiting the efficiency of the rudder physically and only allowing the YAW to be identified before a stall can develop.
I agree, but are the DPEs going to block the rudder on the check ride? If not, then the check ride could be the first time they are demoing it without the rudder blocked, which seems even worse.
Possibly the most authentic lobby for pilot laws mr. and ms. Congress Person! Honest, factual, with integrity. Applied universally, it makes a safer (better) world.
Thank you for reminding me of this. Years ago, going for complex and high performance sign off, I had a HECK of a time talking the instructor into spin training me. I was very glad he did, because I made mistakes the first time out... Recovery can be counter intuitive for a seat of your pants flyer as I was.
Thank you for the very informative video. I'm a 290 hour private pilot working on commercial and instrument. I've been considering not getting my CFI because of the spin endorsement. But, I recognize the importance of learning how to handle them.
Juan, great job tonight! I have been watching the trend lately of the increase in training accidents for general aviation and you’re spot on. So sad to lose young aviators this way! All avoidable with adequate training and understanding of fundamental twin engine aerodynamics. Thank you for what you do. JD, Delta 737
Wow - I'm not a pilot but this is fascinating and not just a little terrifying.... Thanks for all the aviation education you provide... sorry it so often has to have accidents as the course work subject matter for the education...😟
I am not an aviator - your explanation of how light twin engine reasons for spin, has for me, answered why so many of these twin engine happen - It was not obvious to me that not only have you got the engine moment but the added moment of the fuel in the outboard fuel tanks - it now makes sense to me. Great job.
Good grief, how many multi-engine CFI are test pilots? Close to zero, I would imagine. Thanks, Juan! Excellent video!
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Thank you for this Great explanation of the relationship between VMCA and Stall. I remember as a young multi-engine Instructor blocking the rudder during this maneuver so I was versed in this problem during training tho I don’t remember my instructor teaching it to me. I remember I wore heavy shoes to protect my foot because those students pushed so hard on the rudder. If I remember correctly the examiners did not explore this flight envelope very deeply during the check ride. I do remember tho on my 135 ride in a turbo Seneca the examiner failed the inside engine during the 360 steep bank turn. I immediately pulled the other throttle pushed forward on the yoke and leveled the wings
Juan is always so even keeled and informative. You can definitely feel this is a subject he is very passionate about regarding training. Maybe he can get the attention of the powers to be to help avoid these types of issues.
Sad that this happened again. In my twenties I gave a lot of multi instruction. Fortunately my instructor’s that prepared me for my MEI had a lot of flight time and experience. I am afraid these days the instructor’s instructing new MEI’s don’t have a lot of experience. What Juan is saying is exactly what I was taught in my MEI training, limit the rudder travel, and keep hands on both mixtures (to pull power because the student probably isn’t going to be fast enough with the throttle). I also remember in the pre flight briefing with the student telling them that if you even think you feel a stall buffet to immediately recover from the Vmc demo.
OK, I wrote this before you said it. When I got my MEI we would block the 'dead engine' rudder pedal with our foot to let it drift and do the demo. It allowed the demonstration of VMC with a higher, safer airspeed. It is just a demo.
In a fighter jet deploying the drag chute is sometimes used for spin recovery. The force of the drag chute pulls the tail in the opposite direction of the spin and tends to raise the tail and lower thee nose. During flight test when a test pilot is evaluating the stall-spin characteristics of a new airplane they will sometimes install a drag chute on an airplane that normally doesn't have one just for safety. Unfortunately, this is not an option on a small, general aviation aircraft.
Thank you for your expertise and your passion on this subject that is particularly evident on this subject. That quote about ignoring at your own peril was never truer than on this subject.
Juan, I am not a pilot but I find your breakdown of these incidents facinating. I have learned much about aviation and it gives me a new appreciation for what professional Airline pilots actually do and the awesome responsibility you have. I hope student pilots and actually all pilots learn from your observations. It certainly could save lives. Thank you.
Great explanation as always Juan. You would be a great CFI! Your students may not like the the pounding into their thick heads they would get, but it would save their lives! It hit me as I was watching this, people have to learn all this stuff by hours and months of training, yet birds do it as a matter of everyday life. You don't see birds stalling and spinning to their deaths.
An understandably frustrated Juan. Really appreciate the calm Juan and the issues you cover. Great repost illustrating the stalled rudder. I trained in the mid 80’s, to early 90’s. Air work often became habitual, traffic checks and aircraft prep get repetitive, it did get casual. On spins in light twins: It’s was a question from a student in a multi ground lesson that started the discussion. The answer without many details ; Don’t spin the twin. I don’t recall getting much into the physics then. Perhaps it was that harsh response to an innocent question that made it stick. Dual only bookings lowered the risks too. Without that question I wonder if it was subject matter at all. Something so critical yet I do not recall any more emphasis on this. Similarly circling approaches, were taught to pass the flight test. And again another critical flight maneuver glazed over. Thirty plus years later we’re getting a better picture of the flight training industry. Students ultimate risk, their mortality left to cavalier denialism. High risk situations and maneuvers then and now statistically are not the mysterious unknown. They must be made far more evident. Without new tools we are dangerously ignoran to the risks in our missions. For today’s students who are extremely familiar with tech, a generation habituated to increased reliability and predictably. Risks today are seemingly even more removed and hyper insidious. If all fails; reboot. Or in this case call up ATC while the ground is screaming up at you? Another young life lost is sickeningly sad. He may have left us a clue. That transmission sparks so many questions. Most of us are fortunate to have worked with some great, dedicated instructors. I’ve experienced enough to realize tho the industry in many ways can be described as the blind leading the blind. Juan it’s my hope your efforts will help break new ground for GA safety and training.
![Noob To Max With DRAGON REWORK In Blox Fruits [FULL MOVIE]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LnBMOinoOvA/mqdefault.jpg)
I am a retired UK airline pilot with a tad under 20K hours, which includes a few thousand on light to medium twins.
This has got to be the best channel out there for disseminating post crash information. I learn something every time I tune in. Thanks for taking the time to produce these interesting and informative videos Juan.
Thank you for flying us around.
I am a "seasoned" pilot with 2500 hours over 40 years. I just got my multi-engine (it's about time!) and I really wish this video was available before I trained. This was a really interesting detailing of spin recovery... and avoidance. The dance with VMC during training and then on the check ride was disconcerting, and frankly not fully elaborated. I will send this video to anyone I know going into multi training. Thanks Juan.
With over 7000 hours in mostly tailwheel, I always felt that i'd be great at multi-engine...till I took a few ride with friends in their twins. They demonstrated some single-engine VMC stuff, let me try it some, and it was quite easy, but I didn't particularly enjoy it. That's when I decided to continue banner towing as a full career instead of going to corporate or airlines. There's just something enjoyable about the adrenaline rush of picking up the banner and constantly flying right at stall speed all day. lol
Bettrer later than never; very good for you to build a new set of skills. Juan is telling truth about Vmca, stalls, and spins. Center of gravity is a serious factor too.
My multiengine instructors were so adamant about "flying first" and not ever getting slow enough to flirt with stalls or Vmca.
you could have gone to an airline with a CRJ@@paulis7319
Juan, one of the first things my Marine Major flight instructor told me was “never drop the airplane to pick up the radio!”
@@paulis7319ha ha. Interesting job 🤔 I've only seen planes do the sign writing here in Australia 🇦🇺
Retired 777 captain for the same airline you work for Juan. Love your channel and what you do for aviation! Keep up the good work.
Thanks Tom!
A 500 hour CFI with all the confidence in the world never realizes just how little experience they actually have.
well with light twins its because the safety margins are too narrow even for an instructor to catch. Engine out exercises in twins are dangerous .Reminds me of helicopters like the R22 .. look how many of those that have crashed ..and one reason? .. engine failure with a safety margin of about 1.7 sec max to switch to autorotation or you die . I don't want to fly in aircraft on the edge with 1.7 sec between life and death .
Blind leading the blind.....
This MEI had almost 1500 hours😂not applicable here
He had more than 1500 hours. This comment, along with this entire video bashing him for making a mayday call, is just complete ignorance. To say that because he was on the radio that he wasn't trying to do proper technique or maneuvering to get out of the flat spin situatuon is just ludicrous.
I am obviously biased, as the CFI is a longtime friend of mine. However, knowing him offers several advantages, as I know his experience and the culture of safety that he promoted and strived for. I'm not saying my friend wasn't at fault, as he was the CFI/MEI and maybe didn't react quickly or realize what was happening before it did, but he was experienced, safety minded, a damn good pilot and good person.
Thus, I appreciate videos like this that help explain the situation to the public and aviation community, but the ignorant comments on hours/experience, and the bashing of someone who lost their life just gets old.
You bet! Maybe the only helo that auto rotates worse is a Hughes TH 55. Which used to be the Army primary trainer. We started started engine out drills at 1000 AGL. And recovered at 100 ft.
The first time I autorotated a 206, I didn’t realize we were in AR the difference was so great.
Let’s face it, if you’re on an airline track, you’ll never do a VMC demo once you get your multi.
Let’s just stop this crap before we kill more people.@@danobrien3601
That call out to ATC was basically the equivalent to people calling out to their mom, at the point of death. Sadly, as a Combat Medic, I've heard that voice before. R.I.P. to both of them.
It hurt to hear the desperation. I imagine the controller was devasted as well.
Sadly, also letting them know why they were crashing.
I know Juan hasn’t been in a flight school in quite some time, but I thought it odd to rage on about the atc call. We’re taught to make the call. Obviously not so ATC can fly the plane, but to let atc know where to route other traffic and find the crash site and send help if someone should survive. Yes, a female passenger a few months back did survive in the rear seat of the same kind of crash. I miss McSpadden’s debriefs.
@@fivestarAZ - my father in law was a radio operator at a weather station up north in the sixties and one day heard a guy screaming for help as he spun in after losing it in IMC. He had enough altitude he was on the radio for a good while before dying on impact. I definitely get the impression it haunts him still.
@@darthheretic129 The key point that Juan was making is the same one made in bold letters in Beach POH. The longer you allow the situation to continue the more difficult the recovery. Since we can't truly multitask, calling in a Mayday and describing the situation to ATC (who first didn't understand the message) is an absolute waste of time and in this situation those milliseconds are the difference between life and death. The odds of falling through the sky onto another aircraft while in a practice fields are near zero compared to the inevitable doom of the spin.
You’re absolutely correct! We don’t need to prove the book Vmc speed. When I checked out in the Aztec, my instructor would only let me demonstrate Vmc with 1/2 rudder. We’re demonstrating a concept, not certifying the Vmc speed!
Problem…. Some DPEs will only accept full rudder. Hence, problems
Such a shame the FAA can't just adjust the rules to suit actual reality.
The DPE should be advised prior to the ride by the applicant and the instructor that limited amount of rudder will be applied during the demo, otherwise cancel the ride and notify FAA.
@@DM-hd4xm Agreed, there's a big difference between saying this is the way it will be flown and flying it that way, and doing something the DPE was not warned about. In the second situation, they can only assume it's sloppy execution.
Same in my initial checkout ride for twins in a 310. Stay away from the dangerous limits
They're arrogant nut cases.
This is exactly what happened to me on my travel air checkride. One moment we were stalling and the next we were upside down. The only thing I believe saved me us is that I did a lot of spins for my aerobatics rating. Poor instructor was like a deer in the headlights. Very lucky and very scary.
Did you pass on that check ride?
Oh fudge…
@@mrbmp09 I did. It did highlight do me how dangerous stalls could be in a light twin. There were loose object all over the cabin. I don’t think my instructor has ever done a spin and was still white afterwards. The loss of altitude was also super impressive even though we have gone through at the most 1.5 rotations. Also made me realise how quick it happens. Was as fast as a snap roll.
In retrospect there is no need to continue to fly that deeply into a stall especially with asymmetrical power. On the other hand, no one does spin training in singles anymore, which I feel will be very valuable. Even just to experience it.
Actually it WAS a snap roll.
Hearing that oscillating wind noise in the background of the atc call is just chilling, may they rest in peace. Strength, love and courage to those they left behind.
Listen to the VHF signal strength changing you can almost count the rolls
My first airplane instructor was a low time kid who was an excellent instructor. Early 1970. At the time, I needed 5 hours solo and the recommendation of a flight instructor for my airplane single engine land to be added to my commercial Rotorcraft helicopter. I had just got out of the Army as a Warrant Officer helicopter aviator and passed my civilian written test. There was no check ride required for military pilots converting to civilian ratings in the type aircraft the flew in the military. I had just about 2000 hours of helicopter time with 1600 plus in combat as a pilot, aircraft commander and instructor pilot. The GI bill was paying the bill so all I had to do was pass an oral and check ride. With a total of 22 hours airplane time, I was a commercial pilot. Passed my instrument check ride and multi engine check ride with less than 75 hours airplane time. I still was not 23 so I could not take my ATP training. All training was done in Piper aircraft. Multi engine was in an Aztec (Aztruck). Now that I am 76 and a retired airline pilot, I think civilian pilot training is a disaster from day one to your first type ratting. Flight training needs to be rethought with more done in ground procedures trainers and motion simulators. It has to be cheaper, safer and produce a much better pilot.
Civilian training sure was "lighter" than my Navy training.
Civilian training is a reflection of the trainers (instructors) chief pilots and owners - the school I taught at (1600 hours as an instructor with a 96% pass rate) always blocked the rudder, EVERYONE knew, and everyone stayed at 4000 feet in Texas so we never had problems - why did this kid NOT know? It’s embarrassing that an industry is so poorly organized that things I took for granted as basic knowledge simply aren’t taught, without fail, at every school. I was fortunate to have great instructors…but it was just luck. Maybe at another school, it would have been different. Man…it’s very disappointing. This is basic stuff. That’s why Juan is frustrated. It’s BASIC.
I took had my CP in 69. My instructors were pilots in 1938 and 1948 and old school learning saved me a lot of bad experiences. Yes, instructing went to hell in mid 70s when the drive-em-up & down mentality took over the industry. After 2 episodes early on I said that I will never fly unless I'm at the controls. Period. (except airlines)
@@hotrodray6802 Right. You can be a good pilot, and killed by many pilot errors from a bad pilot. Exp. Richard MacSpadden of AOPA safety and many others. I dont fly with bad pilots..
But will the examiner on the check ride block the rudder?
This is the same story that the Twin Comanche went through way back in the 70s. The Twinkie got a bad rap for so many bad outcomes in Vmc demos.
Training was changed to having the instructor block the rudder so that the Vmc affect could be seen way before the stall was actually approached.
Back then the FAA even required that the Vmc demo had to be demonstrated at low altitude in order to enhance the visual affect of the importance of doing it correct. THAT was changed after several crashes.
Forget history and we are bound to repeat it!!!
Got 2088 total time over , 500 in the Airbus. These videos always give the perspective I need to never get comfortable. Thanks a bunch.
You’re doing a real great job for the young generation. Please keep doing what you do.
Juan I see and hear your frustration and sadness about these totally preventable tragedies. You are the best there is at explaining what went wrong and how NOT TO DO IT! Thank you for what you do. Blessings.
As of a study in 2017, the average Flight Instructor was 23 and only instructed for 10 months. Just enough time to get into the right seat of a regional. I totally agree with your assessment.
Not a pilot, but… That sounds like a good way to not have useful life lessons for trainers to convey -> it’ll kill.
Not that young trainers are worthless - no, but generally they won’t have the experience of encountering a true in-flight emergency, and how that can affect the thought process of the pilot. What’s most crucial is not how it affects a pilot during an emergency - it’s how the experience affects their flying going forward -> what changes do they make to their flying, and why? Those lessons won’t all be written in books.
@@RelkondExpirenced pilots are not going to instruct, there’s no money in it. Just the way it is.
@@yamkaw346That’s patently false. Retired airline pilots CFI all the time. They don’t need the money. They love teaching and flying for free. It’s called passion.
@@RelkondPlenty of true in flight emergencies in 1500 hours of flying. Some have none others not as lucky.
@@yamkaw346 I’m an 11,000 hour CFI. Also fly B767, but I love to fly GA and teach.
Great explanation. I'm glad the MEI that I flew with was aware of this condition. He would apply Rudder pressure with his foot just like you described. I didn't understand it at first, but I'm glad he did!
That upside down flip also happens in a 172 when practicing spins. One of the huge advantages of those planes, is that they are approved for spins if the weight is kept below the utility weight threshold, which was 2000lbs...at least in ours. Skyhawks really don't like to spin so you have to add a bunch of energy to kick things off...especially with a big boy or two in the seats. The way we did it was to get to a safe altitude (for us it was 4000' AGL) then get really slow and as the horn was blaring, add full left rudder and a healthy shot of gas. That unit would snap onto its back in a heartbeat.
But like I said, they really don't like to spin so you have to keep rudder in and stick all the way back and even then, it would usually flop out of the spin on its own. What a 172 really does like to do, is spiral. That's the puppy that tears wings off of inadvertent IMC aircraft. It's usually a subtle thing at first. Basically, it starts off as a gentle, coordinated turn. If it happens during a boring part of cruise, you might not even notice. Before too long, the increasing G load may get your attention but then you're trying to figure out WTF...so what happens when you notice the altimeter unwinding? You pull back while in a steep, diving, accelerating, turn and BLAMO! Maybe you snap into an extra violent accelerated spin/stall. Maybe you lose a wing.
Spin recovery won't always work with a spiral dive and could make it worse. The first rule of spiral recovery, is knowing that you're in a spiral.
Juan, I would be very interested in your take on spiral dives. To my way of thinking (and of course there are plenty of exceptions) spins are more of a low, slow, patter problem...and spirals are a cruise killer. With a spin, it's the ground that's the killer. A spiral can tear a plane apart without hitting a thing.
Thanks for doing what you do.
Excellent post !
upside down flip ?had it happen in a C152 with full flap very exciting
Most aircraft will flop onto their backs when entering a spin from forward flight, the type of aircraft isn't really important. If you're moving forward, a spin is temporarily a snap roll, as you still have quite a bit of forward speed. If you're fast enough to catch it in a single rotation, congrats, you just snap rolled your plane back to mostly level flight like a boss. A snap roll becomes an actual spin if you let it keep going (assuming the plane obliges), at which point you lose all forward speed and trade it for vertical speed instead. The plane will rotate around it's CG, so it's simply rotating around whatever the plane's trajectory is. If its trajectory is forward, then you're going to flop over on your back like you did a snap roll and will continue to do so until your trajectory points downward. With most GA aircraft that happens around the second or third rotation unless it's accelerated, or the aircraft is particularly snappy. Cherokees and 172's are so bad at them (I guess that makes them...good?) that you basically have to hold power, rudder, up elevator, and sometimes even aileron to keep it in a spin, and recoveries are usually hands off.
I currently live in Huntsville, AL and I currently work at a flying club in the area as a mechanic, and I heard about this crash through the people I work with. It shook me a little bit because I myself have been learning to fly, and have recently scheduled my check ride, which I'm very confident I'll pass. At the club I fly and work at, my instructors have always emphasized the phrase, "Aviate, navigate, communicate", especially in an engine failure and a spin, which the club instructors also emphasize. My instructor always drilled the acronym PAER in my head. Power idle. Ailerons neutral. Elevators down. Opposite rudder. Eventually I want to fly for the airlines myself, but at the same time, I don't want to rush my training. Because I want to be as safe a pilot as I can. And learning from the accidents is one way I think will make me a safe pilot.
When people say students are being rushed through flight training, I don't have any doubt in that statement at all. In the Huntsville area there is also flight school called Revolution Flight, which this travel air belonged to. I have heard very shady things about Revolution Flight in almost every aspect. Training, maintenance, management, and business. I'd be hard pressed to think part of the cause of this crash was because of the way training is conducted at Revolution Flight. But I'll wait for the NTSB report before I make any assumptions.
I would also think part of the problem with bad training is instructors not giving their full attention to their students, because they're just using flight instructing to get to the airlines as quickly as possible. I'm very blessed to have been assigned to an instructor who deeply cares for his students, and does a thorough job in making sure his students are ready for their check rides, both knowledge wise, and flight skill wise.
Plus, United, and ATC also......... are hiring 50% quotas !!!!!!!!!! Only a goofy would do that, and kill innocent folks.
Our mechanic at our club(50yr pilot) warned me that I had the only good instructor on the roster and to go other places for my instrument rating now that he's unavailable. Seems the quality control acoss the board has dropped significantly.
The problem with flight instructing is money and regulations by people who don’t know anything.
As an instructor
1 - you don’t get paid enough to ever live in anything other than a small apartment.
2 - almost every student you get comes to you expecting to be finished at the minimum hours and sometimes fight back at what you have planned even when they’re struggling doing some required maneuvers.
3 - even if you didn’t want to instruct, unless your family runs it’s own aviation business or charter operation you’re likely not going to find another flying job besides instructing until you’ve done about 1500 hours flying in circles
As a student
1 - you are paying a TON of money to fly something that is way simpler and less complex than most cars.
2 - planes are expensive because of supply and anytime someone has an accident, litigious dickheads try and sue everyone for what their worth, further driving up the cost.
I soloed in 1972 and retired in 2015 - initially Alaska-style bush flying (minus the bush, this was in Iceland where the weather is even nastier and bush is hard to find). The absolutely best advice I ever got was before my solo flight: If the airplane starts behaving funny, UNLOAD (reduce the angle of attack)! When the airplane behaves again, fly out of it. If you mucked up at a too low altitude, you are in deep shite...
The same applies if you abuse a light twin (or any multi-engine aircraft for that matter) at altitude; revert the airplane to a C150 mode - chop power and take it from there. If you are struggling on one engine shortly after takeoff, you do not have that luxury, do things by the book or become a statistic. No fumbling around...
Controlled flight to the scene of the crash
@@hotrodray6802 goddamn right.
"Shite".
Are you Irish, or have you lived in Ireland before? Genuine question. I always thought only we used the term ;)
@@Hiram1000 I am Icelandic, and use this word as an attempt to avoid censure, not to mention that I like it! According to genetic research I am likely to be up to 70% Irish on my maternal side, something I find good reason to be proud of.
I’m sharing this story in case it saves someone else’s life. My MEI entered a Vmc-induced stall-spin during training in a PA-44 at 14,000 feet. The ONLY way they were able to recover was for the instructor to climb up onto the glare shield while his student performed the PARE recovery items. Full elevator down wasn’t enough to break out of it; the instructor had to physically move forward as far as possible to adjust the airplane’s CG enough for the nose to drop. Had they been lower, they would’ve perished. Might be worth adding to your toolkit; you never know if you may need it.
My god that's insane... I couldn't imagine having to undo your seatbelt to crawl up onto the instrument panel during a spin.
@@TheFlyingZulu Yeah, it’s a pretty incredible and active mindset shift from normal training ops to, “I have to unbuckle my seatbelt and climb forward to put myself at additional risk because our current situation is 100% unsurvivable. If this doesn’t work, we’re no worse off.” It’s an awesome example of the old pilot adage “never stop flying the airplane” in action. He never gave up, and that’s why he’s still alive.
High is great but the problem is that you’ll stall before loss of directional control, which is BAD. You MUST block the rudder when doing Vmc demos.
might have been worth doing a W&B calculation before they went
@@Banshee365 Yeah, it's kind of a win-lose situation. By getting higher, you give yourself more time to recover from a potential spin, but by being higher you also get closer/farther into the potential stall-spin envelope
Juan this was an excellent expose into WHY GETTING SPIN TRAINING AND/OR A SPIN ENDORSEMENT IS SO IMPORTANT TO SAFETY. Years ago the FAA decided that stall awareness and unusual attitude training was sufficient enough for the initial PPL, where in most other countries they still teach spins, getting in and getting out of them. From my years of general interest in aviation I already knew in general the procedure for getting out of a spin, but it took me reading about them in the Airplane Flying Handbook (which is available FREE online because we pay taxes) when I wrote my lesson plan for my endoresment, and it talks about why every step in PARE is designed the way it is, what each action does to reduce the aggravated stall or how doing the opposite could make things worse. Aerobatics, I agree, is such an eye opener to learning about the dynamics of flight, someday, I want to do more aerobatics when I have the time and means.
Risk vs training value was always wrong with the VMCA demo. Twenty years since I was a CFI and amazed they still do it.
@@adotintheshark4848uh, so you have a clue if you get onto it by accident? Otherwise by the same logic why practice any other emergency procedure that results from human error- just tell the students "don't do this" and it will be fine right???
@@laurencedawson7754I respect your opinion. However I'm not sure which is the bigger killer. Actual VMCA events or the VMCA demo?
Way more people die in twins with an engine actually out VMC into the ground than do in the demos. @@philipjamesparsons
The demo is harmless if they actually follow procedure, which as Juan pointed out, very possibly not doing it that day. There is also no requirement to go to the limit, you can block full application of rudder to simulate it.
@@laurencedawson7754 You can practice the procedure in a simulator, which won't kill you.
Juan, that flat spin demonstration was impressive. Me flying twins for over a decade and I didn’t know that applying power flattens and exacerbates a spin. No wonder they tell you to do incipient stalls only, NEVER to full developed ones either in sim and much less in aircraft.
I’m rewatching and sharing.
Save real-life spin training for aerobatic training in an aerobatic aircraft
It's also worth adding to the spin recovery checklist, regardless of number of engines: POWER TO IDLE. If you don't, some aircraft will NOT recover, which is why some are thought to have augered in despite seemingly correct recovery technique.
We do full stalls in the sim. Its required as part of the UPRT training all airline pilots get. Everyone should be doing full stalls in the sim, it's not dangerous.
And honestly, if the aircraft type is capable, you should be doing full stalls in it to. If someone told me they weren't practicing full stalls in their cub or 172 I'd say they're too afraid of the airplane and to get more training.
The US Army suffered loss of life accidents in then B-55 Barons due to Vmc demonstrations because the demonstrations were taken to full yaw loss of control. They found that less than a 5x3" strip exists on the rudder to recover from a spin due to the airflow blanket produced from the horizontal stab and elevator. Later the limit was defined to any indication of control problem such as stall warning, not full directional control loss. This is well discussed in all later Baron Beechcraft POH's. When observed, the Army then had much fewer demo induced spin accidents. To this day, all Baron manuals feature this discussion and limitation. I don't know about the Travel Air, but sensor indication limitation is now observed in many of the airline training academy's. Sorry to go on, but this rudder problem in the Baron is considered a classic example of DIPE, design induced pilot error, something in the design of the aircraft that lures the pilot into a critical mistake. In modern aircraft these problems exist everywhere. You might find this an interesting problem to discuss on a later video. Of course, the training actions you discussed should be taught to MEL instructors and of course, observed. Good job, thanks Juan.
Absolutely brilliant!
so why not cross coupled engines to fix the problem ?? a drive shaft or an electrical solution ?
A picture is worth a thousand words and a video has to be worth a million. Thanks Juan for the video. Some of us are visual learners and emotions combined with a person speaking brings dry text instructions to life.
Juan, great analysis and advice for MEI’s. I did multi engine instruction in PA-44’s and BE-76’s…42 years ago as an MEI. Those airplanes have counter rotating props which eliminate the critical engine, but still you needed to be careful doing VMCA demos. Blocking the rudder is a great solution. Thank you. All MEI’s need to hear this. Also, we need more spin training. So many new pilots are terrified of practicing spins.
This is a life saving video. Should be required viewing for every single multi engine student and instructor. Thank you Juan. I did not have an appreciation for this concept before watching this.
My first aerobatic flight lesson my instructor and I were running the prestart checklists. He then showed a billy club to me. He said, "if I tell you to get off the controls and you dont, I'll use this!". We never had a problem.
That's pretty funny....LOL. My introduction to spin training was with a very slight female CFI. She was no more than 5 foot even, and maaaayyyybe 105 pounds. On our first spin in a C-152, after several turns, and recovery, she admitted that she tried to block the rudder on this first one to just enter a spiral, but my larger frame and strength easily over powered her attempt. The lesson I learned that day had nothing to do with spins. The lesson was as a CFI, you need to go over the planned flight with the student, and keep no secrets, like blocking a rudder pedal. Everyone in a training cockpit has to have all of the plan, and be fully in the loop.
Kershner, who wrote the Advanced Pilot's flight manual, said one of those VMC departures takes about 6000' to recover from. They probably didn't have that, and it also takes the knowledge of how to do the recovery.
I wonder what their altitude above ground was.
5700 MSL, aprroximately 5000 AGL@@teeanahera8949
Zero at the end...@@teeanahera8949
What an excellent presentation and explanation, Juan!
Until now I've wondered why flat spins aren't recoverable by adding power, and you've explained it.
You channel is a real treasure trove of knowledge, experience and aviation wisdom.
So happy to be a subscriber. Many thanks!
The 1500 hour rule just meant I had no interest in pursuing airlines anymore. Now that I can finally afford training I can't (or dont want to) afford the pay cut I'd have to take to pursue that career track.
Well said Juan. Sad to see these accidents happening so frequently. After I obtained my initial PPL, I found a flight school with a 150 aerobat and took lessons on spin recoveries.
My MEL cfi was a Vietnam era naval pilot. I am so thankful I had him guide and teach me what you just explained.
If memory serves, twins are not required to demonstrate spin recovery for certification.....unlike a single. As a flight instructor I had to recover from a spin induced during power on stalls in a C172 during a BFR. Two different pilots made the same mistake like you mentioned, they tried to use aileron instead of rudder to keep a wing up during the stall and we went right into a spin. Funny how that happens! I did something similar to what you did. After becoming a flight instructor (and before these incidents!) I rented a C152 and climbed to 10,000 and did spin recovery after spin recovery, sure was fun and probably saved my life!
Light Twins are not certified for spins..
I learned to fly in Rhodesia in the 70’s. Single engine spin recovery was a big part of my training. I was told to go to the training area, D4 and practice solo spins and recovery time and time again.
When I received my FAA license, I was surprised to learn that this maneuver is not taught in the PPL curriculum. I believe that all pilots should learn spin recovery.
Edit: I learned to fly on a PA28-140.
Me too. Unless you have experienced it you have no idea what it feels and looks like.
Same for a Canadian license.
The US is way behind many countries , if you didn't know that
not a requirement in the USA but always an option. everyone will need a parachute though.
@@alanpretre3272 No, you dont need parachute to do spins. I learned them on Piper Tomahawks. Not para required in USA, just a good CFI. Not a pendejo.
It's one thing to pass the mandatory exams, it's an entirely different thing to live and breathe the ideas that encourage the type of aviation safety mindset you're advocating.
Juan, your analysis and commentary *will* save lives by raising awareness among pilots. What you do on RUclips is an incredibly important public service. Thank you sir.
Great video and a reminder that the rudder can stall as well. I still remember my multi training from 30 years ago, dead foot dead engine BLUELINE! (More of course but you get the idea).
Amazing video!
1. As an 1150 hour pilot who's career was killed by the 1500 hour rule. Thank you so much for what you said. I'm still bitter all these years later.
2. Your comment about the instructor needing to be on the rudder is spot on! I almost was in a similar fate in a Travel-Air when my student took his foot off the rudder to stretch it 10mph from Vmc. That's the only time I have ever yelled at a student. Scared me to death.
RIP to the pilots. Very sad.
Can you please elaborate on how requiring 1500 hours killed your career?
@@kickinit8314 when a Cessna 150 rents for $150/hr its easy to see why.
The 1500 hour rule hasn't killed your career. Go to one of the flight schools that has the 1000-hour or 1200-hour waiver, or go to a 135 operation, or be a flight instructor.
Bottom line the 1500 hour rule does not save lives. It just cost money.
@@kickinit8314It was 2010. The fight school I was at discontinued fixed wing and stuck with rotorcraft. A lot of pilots were laid off from the airlines at the time because of the economy. So every other school within 100 miles didn't have an opening for a CFI. I was young and unsure what to do at the time. Then the 1500 hour rule hit in 2011. I had no path to obtain it at that point. And I got a non aviation degree because that's what every pilot told me to do. So I couldn't do the R-ATP mins.
Long story short it was a different time. Imagine paying money to sit in the right seat of a Beech 1900.
When I was a MEII, the first thing I did was teach the same things mentioned in the video before attempting VMCA demo. The main thing which I taught was recovery should be at the onset of stall OR loss of directional control whichever comes FIRST. I always found that theoretical knowledge was a key point to completing these maneuvers safely. RIP to the pilots…
Ron I love your passion to educate and get people learning from these tragic incidents. I'm not an aviator, but my field of emergency medicine / critical care shares very similar challenges of rapidly-evolving high risk situations and behaviour traps. The Dunning-Kruger pitfall of moderate experience producing risky boldness is so dangerous - I spend a lots of time coaching junior clinicians in how to stay in their competence envelope. Love your work - lots of lessons for non-aviation safety.
Condolences.
I have only done spin training in a single engine Cessna 152. This video has great info !!! Thank you.
Nice summation. In all my years of flying (in the USAF, in the Tweet with students, in the T-38, the U-2, airlines) my ATP training in a Duchess was, in my opinion, the most hazardous flying I’ve ever done. There’s so little margin in a light twin and you’re so close to the ground, there’s little room for error. Yes, yes, yes, instructors guard the controls and be ready for anything.
I am not a pilot, have experienced a single engine spin as a passenger. Your explanation and video made into layman’s terms made it crystal clear why, how and what to do. Awesome!
Juan, you are very gifted with your knowledge and understanding of the current situation…I had 10 years in the Air Force and 32 with United..I was very fortunate. However, I had to spend 17 years 17 years, I repeat myself, 17 years as a Flight engineer… No regrets there, it was 17 years of watching other people flying… The good and the bad. The point is that there was a marked difference in the copilots I observed …you might say half were ex military, and half were FNG’s who had only a couple of hundred hours and an instrument rating… I will say that the better pilots, in my opinion, were the low time kids.
Also, there’s my understanding that Lufthansa train their pilots in Arizona from the start… In my opinion, there is never been a problem. Thanks for all you do.😅
I was fortunate to have an MEL instructor who knew how to block the rudder during Vmc demo. I could feel it. He was building time for an ATP. Young and Good. Choose your CFI like you choose your doctor.
I appreciate all the good you do. As a commercial pilot student and aircraft owner, I seek out as much training as possible. I hope more pilots see this video and learn as much as possible.
I just had my Commercial Multi Engine checkride two days ago, and all of my training for VMC Demos involved the instructor blocking the rudder with his foot. The DPE, however, wanted a full demonstration and did not use his foot to block the rudder pedal. I was sat on the maneuver, but it was very sloppy and I saw my DPE jump up and almost take control of the aircraft.
Excellent discussion, with extremely clear explanation of the aerodynamics involved! I couldn't agree more. I got my CFI-ME in 1977 and went on to fly DC-3's and 40 years flying airline jets (7 jet type ratings). I have owned a Travel Air like this one, and now a Baron over the last 33 years. CFI's used to have to attend a 3 day FAA Instructor refresher course every 2 years. I remember a video that was shown of a Piper Aztec spin recovery. The airplane was equipped with a drag Chute, and D rings to jettison the door, while the test pilot wore a parachute. After a couple of turns the Aztec was in a flat spin. Shortly, you see the drag chute deploy and the airplane keeps spinning. Off comes the door and you watch the pilot's chute deploy and the Aztec bore a hole in the ground. If you think you are going to recover from a spin in a light twin---think again! I refuse to obtain a BFR in my Baron; I don't want any instructor 'surprises'. I find a single engine airplane for that. I don't believe you should do a VMC demonstration more than once in any light twin! This is like practicing a forced landing in a single where you actually have to land off airport. Let's stop the carnage!
Very excellent video. Many hours in the BE-95 here. (Remember Vmc demos are gear down flaps up also)
11:40... normal prop rotation, spinning to the RIGHT... added power pushes the nose down...
upright to the left, added power pulls the nose up...
the effect of added power is due to the gyroscopics...
The MEI in the video was 30 years old and was almost at ATP minimums… he was a great guy and a great pilot, RIP Nikul
Sorry for the loss of Nikul and his student. Truly. Blue skies.
Juan, you are a absolute god sent to this community. Keep it up!
Juan thank you. Ok I ain’t a pilot and I have never taken a lesson but I watch your show religiously. This video well I don’t get any of it but I can say this. Without doubt everybody should pay heed to this man’s insight and comments on this issue. I know when Juan is serious and is asking everyone to sit and listen and this is that video. All you pilots out there who are learning and instructing well sit back in your chair for ten minutes and digest every word and insight this man is giving you. It will save your life. Peace.
For to those who are not pilots are probably wasting their time with this because it is over their head....might want to spend the time reading basic flight instructional manuals
Every low hour twin pilot should watch this video as many times as it takes to see the light. You should do a video of stall recovery in a twin with the differences between a stall with each engine out.
It is crazy to keep losing lives this way. You are doing great work Juan. Keep it up.
I talked to a guy from an airline who said that 1500 hours of flight time just means that pilots end up with more bad habits to unlearn when they make it to an airline.
Fly R/C with a high time South West Pilot and thats exactly what he said it takes a Lot to Untrain their Bad Habbits at 1500 hours as opposed to when they had just 300. He also in 1990 when he started SW required 4000+ hrs. Mainly there were Enough Canadates avaiable.
Can confirm. Those hours between getting ratings and reaching 1500 are often utterly useless.
Semi agree if the pilot goes from all rating and certificates and flies professionally say for a good flight school or part 135 he/she will be a solid pilot by 1500, however if a person is allowed to be unsupervised and allowed to become lazy/not striving to become a better pilot yes 1500 is useless. Someone that buys a plane and just flies VFR without being pressed to become a better pilot and enforce good habits is one example of being a disservice to the 1500 hour rule.
They come to us with 1500 total time on the dot with only 25 hrs multi engine and think they are entitled expect to be the RHS of an Airbus..
It all depends on how those hours are spent.
Juan, 2 years ago you posted a King Air skydiver stall spin caught on video. Great video. Shows the partial snap roll you are talking about on camera. You might want to link it here.
I also thought that with military or college aviation training you could apply to airlines with 750 hours or 1,000 hours respectively. Is this correct? How many hours do you need to fly fighters or right seat transport aircraft in the Air Force? I will note that since the crash that caused this knee jerk reaction (Colgan?) U.S. airline safety has improved.
Always thought anti yaw engine power would help, did not realize power flattened spins.
Decades ago, the Aviation Consumer publication ran a story on light twins and stall spin. IIRC, in the PA-30 and Baron you had about 3 or 4 seconds to initiate the right moves in the event of a critical engine failure during climb out.
Several years ago Beechcraft flight test engineers determined that if a spin in a Baron was allowed to develop beyond 3/4 of a turn it would become unrecoverable.
Wow Juan, I feel your frustration with yet another, easily preventable, tragic waste. You hit every bullet point. This video should be mandatory watching for all twin Instructors, pilots and students.
I earned my multi in 369BB and walked by it with my wife on the ramp at HSV Sunday night before the accident and said "hey" to old Bravo Bravo. I knew the instructor and flew with him a few times last year. He was a great guy, very smart and very professional. It was heartbreaking to hear a voice I know so well in that situation. I'm approaching 700 hours of flying time and if I've learned anything since getting my PPL it's that the ACS only teaches the bare minimum of skills and information you will need to become a proficient, SAFE pilot. If you're a student pilot and think you'll be done learning when you pass your checkride, there's a pretty good chance you'll end up in one of these videos. I follow Blanco, Gryder, Scott Perdue, Jason Schappert and several others in an effort to understand more and to keep these things in the front of my mind every single time I prepare to fly. If you're going to fly airplanes, you must be commited to continuing education and mastery of the airplanes you fly. These things do not forgive the mistakes, distractions or slight lapses of judgement that we are ALL prone to as human beings. Rest in peace Nikul.
Thank you Juan for sharing your experience as well as others to make aviation a safer place. Awareness of the consequences of ignorance in our shared passion for flying keeps us all safer.
Keep training and always get better.
Thanks again Juan.
Reminds me of Tuco's bathtub scene from The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly -- "When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk."
The crashes are keeping you busy, Juan :( Thanks for all that you do.
Another one yesterday. A Beechcraft 35-C33 crashed in TN taking the lives of RUclipsr “TNFlygirl” and her father. No info as to a cause. Sad.
Veteran pilot Art Scholl was killed in a movie stunt gone horribly wrong, during the filming of Top Gun , in a Pitts - he got into an unrecoverable inverted flat spin ; there was some speculation that the exterior camera mount on his airplane affected the CG or airflow over the rudder making it useless against the spin.
The thinking is it affected the CoG and the rudder was ineffective, rather than aerodynamically blocked. It made a spin unrecoverable. :(
Juan, I still remember the T-37 spin recovery almost 48 years later.....
Throttles - Idle
Rudder and Ailerons - Neutral
Stick - Abruptly Full Aft and Hold
Rudder - Abruptly apply Full Rudder Opposite the Direction of the Spin and Hold
One Turn After Applying Opposite Rudder - Stick Abruptly Full Forward
Controls Neutral and recover from the Dive
That's interesting. Why did the stick have to be pulled back initially for the recovery? Wouldn't it already be back as part of the spin entry?
Not necessarily. You could have gotten into the stall without full aft stick. (cross control or accelerated stall). And most times when a spin starts the first reaction is using aileron and neutral stick. And it could be an inverted spin.....The procedure was tried and true for that plane.
I teach spin entry and recovery in gliders. I hammer the student when he uses aileron in recovery. Using the aileron to pick up the low wing increases the drag/yaw force that increases the spin and reduces the rudder effectiveness. The drag from the aileron is fighting the rudder.
Juan, once again your concern at the incidents is palpable. I salute your knowledge and analysis in these videos.
When I was 18 I had ambitions to be a pilot (I'm in my 60s now!). That never happened, but, in some ways I'm glad, as I'm not sure i could have mastered the multitude of factors you describe in order to maintain safety in all parts of the flight envelope. Keep up the good work!
I appreciate your insights! quit flying after a series of low hour pilots messed up and paid the ultimate price. One was a Vmca-gone-wrong about 10 miles from my house. At nearly 350hrs in helicopters and about 60 hours in fixed wing… it seemed insane to me what dangerous maneuvers low time instructors were expected to teach. My life is worth more than achieving another 1,100 hours of flying risky maneuvers or being pressured to fly in risky conditions, especially in ops that don’t require a SMS! Wonder why there’s a pilot shortage? It’s too risky and too expensive to meet the 1,500 hour minimums to get a safe job. Simple as that
Juan, thank you for the emphasis you placed on the lesson you provided us today. Really made us sit up straight and pay attention. You are saving lives with your podcasts!
Sad accident. I always appreciate your insights and, most importantly, humanity while recapping these accidents.
That’s a strange priority, humanity over insights that act as knowledge to prevent future crashes. “Humanity while recapping” doesn’t save a pilot in a spin but more knowledge from this guy’s insights might.
Love your passion Juan and your frustration at the unnecessary losses is palpable. Thank you for the explanation of these types of accidents.
I owned a 1958 as a time builder and it is a wonderful and docile aircraft.
Such a excellent description of recovery from inadvertently entering a spin in light multi engine aircraft.
There is "PARE" Recovery if your not sure of spin recovery:
P - Power Idle
A - Ailerons Netural
R - Rudder Full Opposite Of Rotation
E - Elevator Forward Stick
Busy trying to conclude my UPRT and get that all important airline job before the window of opportunity closes. This resonates very well with me. Condolences to the bereaved.
Excellent presentation, as usual. When I was a CFI-MEL eons ago, we blocked the rudder. I had no idea if a 160 hp Apache would recover from a spin, and I didn't want to die trying to find out.
Another great job explaining spins and how to get out of them. Thank you Juan!
This content should be mandatory viewing for a multi-engine rating. Great work, Juan!
Completely avoidable death. FAA needs to send an AC to all flight schools in the country that have a light twin in their fleet and have them attest to have communicated guidance to their instructors not to allow these planes to reach a stall during VMc demos. To only allow these demonstrations in a manner, as Juan recommended, by limiting the efficiency of the rudder physically and only allowing the YAW to be identified before a stall can develop.
I believe there is plenty of guidance on the safe operation of twins in Vmc demos. MEIs just need to be fully proficient and on their game.
😊
Horses and water
I agree, but are the DPEs going to block the rudder on the check ride? If not, then the check ride could be the first time they are demoing it without the rudder blocked, which seems even worse.
Possibly the most authentic lobby for pilot laws mr. and ms. Congress Person! Honest, factual, with integrity. Applied universally, it makes a safer (better) world.
Great piece Juan. Gut wrenching to hear that poor pilot calling for help. Very very sad.
Thank you for reminding me of this. Years ago, going for complex and high performance sign off, I had a HECK of a time talking the instructor into spin training me. I was very glad he did, because I made mistakes the first time out... Recovery can be counter intuitive for a seat of your pants flyer as I was.
Also, aileron down at stall causes that side to stall much sooner than the up aileron side, inviting a spin.
Thank you for the very informative video. I'm a 290 hour private pilot working on commercial and instrument. I've been considering not getting my CFI because of the spin endorsement. But, I recognize the importance of learning how to handle them.
Juan, great job tonight! I have been watching the trend lately of the increase in training accidents for general aviation and you’re spot on. So sad to lose young aviators this way! All avoidable with adequate training and understanding of fundamental twin engine aerodynamics. Thank you for what you do. JD, Delta 737
The physics jargon for what you're describing at 3:40 is "angular momentum".
Wow - I'm not a pilot but this is fascinating and not just a little terrifying.... Thanks for all the aviation education you provide... sorry it so often has to have accidents as the course work subject matter for the education...😟
Always keep one foot on the ground!
I am not an aviator - your explanation of how light twin engine reasons for spin, has for me, answered why so many of these twin engine happen - It was not obvious to me that not only have you got the engine moment but the added moment of the fuel in the outboard fuel tanks - it now makes sense to me. Great job.
Good grief, how many multi-engine CFI are test pilots? Close to zero, I would imagine. Thanks, Juan! Excellent video!
Thank you for this Great explanation of the relationship between VMCA and Stall. I remember as a young multi-engine Instructor blocking the rudder during this maneuver so I was versed in this problem during training tho I don’t remember my instructor teaching it to me. I remember I wore heavy shoes to protect my foot because those students pushed so hard on the rudder. If I remember correctly the examiners did not explore this flight envelope very deeply during the check ride. I do remember tho on my 135 ride in a turbo Seneca the examiner failed the inside engine during the 360 steep bank turn. I immediately pulled the other throttle pushed forward on the yoke and leveled the wings
Juan is always so even keeled and informative. You can definitely feel this is a subject he is very passionate about regarding training. Maybe he can get the attention of the powers to be to help avoid these types of issues.
Sad that this happened again. In my twenties I gave a lot of multi instruction. Fortunately my instructor’s that prepared me for my MEI had a lot of flight time and experience. I am afraid these days the instructor’s instructing new MEI’s don’t have a lot of experience.
What Juan is saying is exactly what I was taught in my MEI training, limit the rudder travel, and keep hands on both mixtures (to pull power because the student probably isn’t going to be fast enough with the throttle).
I also remember in the pre flight briefing with the student telling them that if you even think you feel a stall buffet to immediately recover from the Vmc demo.
OK, I wrote this before you said it. When I got my MEI we would block the 'dead engine' rudder pedal with our foot to let it drift and do the demo. It allowed the demonstration of VMC with a higher, safer airspeed. It is just a demo.
In a fighter jet deploying the drag chute is sometimes used for spin recovery. The force of the drag chute pulls the tail in the opposite direction of the spin and tends to raise the tail and lower thee nose. During flight test when a test pilot is evaluating the stall-spin characteristics of a new airplane they will sometimes install a drag chute on an airplane that normally doesn't have one just for safety. Unfortunately, this is not an option on a small, general aviation aircraft.
Great Video Juan!! All ME Instructors should watch this. The information you've just shared is life saving!
Thank you for your expertise and your passion on this subject that is particularly evident on this subject.
That quote about ignoring at your own peril was never truer than on this subject.
Juan, I am not a pilot but I find your breakdown of these incidents facinating. I have learned much about aviation and it gives me a new appreciation for what professional Airline pilots actually do and the awesome responsibility you have. I hope student pilots and actually all pilots learn from your observations. It certainly could save lives. Thank you.
Great explanation as always Juan. You would be a great CFI! Your students may not like the the pounding into their thick heads they would get, but it would save their lives!
It hit me as I was watching this, people have to learn all this stuff by hours and months of training, yet birds do it as a matter of everyday life. You don't see birds stalling and spinning to their deaths.
An understandably frustrated Juan.
Really appreciate the calm Juan and the issues you cover.
Great repost illustrating the stalled rudder.
I trained in the mid 80’s, to early 90’s. Air work often became habitual, traffic checks and aircraft prep get repetitive, it did get casual.
On spins in light twins:
It’s was a question from a student in a multi ground lesson that started the discussion. The answer without many details ; Don’t spin the twin.
I don’t recall getting much into the physics then. Perhaps it was that harsh response to an innocent question that made it stick. Dual only bookings lowered the risks too.
Without that question I wonder if it was subject matter at all. Something so critical yet I do not recall any more emphasis on this.
Similarly circling approaches, were taught to pass the flight test. And again another critical flight maneuver glazed over.
Thirty plus years later we’re getting a better picture of the flight training industry. Students ultimate risk, their mortality left to cavalier denialism. High risk situations and maneuvers then and now statistically are not the mysterious unknown. They must be made far more evident. Without new tools we are dangerously ignoran to the risks in our missions.
For today’s students who are extremely familiar with tech, a generation habituated to increased reliability and predictably. Risks today are seemingly even more removed and hyper insidious. If all fails; reboot. Or in this case call up ATC while the ground is screaming up at you?
Another young life lost is sickeningly sad.
He may have left us a clue. That transmission sparks so many questions.
Most of us are fortunate to have worked with some great, dedicated instructors. I’ve experienced enough to realize tho the industry in many ways can be described as the blind leading the blind.
Juan it’s my hope your efforts will help break new ground for GA safety and training.
This one's a life saver Juan. Thank you for your analysis
Thank you for the detailed explanation, Juan! Those of us who are not pilots are just along for the ride !