I was talking about his tuner, I understand that he introducing a tool. But Eric Cortina I think has got the market covered in the tuner arena. I do enjoy both channels, take care guys.
You should try using a plain muzzle brake that you like, only screw em down tight against a nut instead of the crush washer. You can then have the brake out from the shoulder at different lengths. Always snug em up against a nut. I get the best groups all within 1 & 2 turns. Some weight on the end of the barrel seems to help most of the time. Now adjust the brake the same as the tuners & tighten down.
Same basic concept except we aren't allowed to use muzzle brakes in F Class so I don't have any. There are tuners out there that use set screws, lock washers, friction washers and o-rings and they each work respectably well for how they're designed. I totally get what you're saying but it's not practical in f class 1)becuase we don't have muzzle brakes and 2) if you find yourself needing to make a tuner change quickly it's not practical but I appreciate where you're coming from and in other disciplines it probably works great.
Great explanation John , I have a tuner on my FClass 308 and yes they work to tune a good load but I have found it won’t fix a bad load it will improve it a little but it won’t make it perfect , thanks for the video Mate , Steve .
A Thanks for posting this. I purchased two of Dan’s Tuners. I shoot a Vudoo. Because my barrel is threaded and a different diameter an adapter was needed. Dan designed an adapter that fits my application. Tuners and adapters should be here this week. I noticed you sometimes shoot Rattlesnake Mountain. I live by Yakima and go there on Tuesdays to shoot .22 matches.
A tuner simply slows a barrel down. Combine a barrel contour that swings a little to fast and a tuner that is only heavy enough to slow it down just the right amount and you’ve got a great combination. Without a tuner you want a barrel contour that swings a little too fast, resulting in faster shots hitting slightly lower than slower shots. That indicates your barrel is swinging upwards at the time the bullet exits, and is swinging faster than optimal. Then you add a tuner that slows it down just enough to make the faster and slower shots hit at the same elevation. Faster shots start hitting higher than slower shots and you’ve slowed it down too much, too much tuner weight or rotated out too far. Simple concept that practically everyone does not understand, and in a lot of cases even actively refuse to try to understand.
When a gun is fired the barrel reacts by moving in an elliptical motion while the bullet is travelling down it, it stops at the very top and the bottom of the motion before changing directions like a ball thrown straight up will stop just before it starts back down. The goal of the tuner is to time the bullet exit at the top or bottom of the harmonic when the barrel hesitates before moving in the opposite direction, no question you will get better accuracy if the bullet is exiting a stationary barrel. Barrel harmonics can change depending on the ammo shot thru it so a tuner adjusted for one load probably won't be perfect for another load and a load and barrel that causes more severe harmonics will benefit more from a tuner. The only barrels that won't benefit from a tuner would be one cut exactly correct so the bullet exits at the top or bottom of the harmonics, pretty rare, but the difference a tuner makes can be difficult to prove depending on how consistent the rifle and ammo are along with the test set up.
@@CCW1911 Actually, no, the goal of a tuner is to have the bullet exiting while the barrel is swinging upwards at a rate that will be helpful the target distance you're shooting. If you have a completely stopped barrel then you will have vertical that directly corresponds to the velocity difference from shot to shot. This is obviously undesirable. What you want is the barrel swinging upwards just fast enough to compensate for the shot-to-shot velocity differences such that a shot that is 2690 fps will be leaving at a slightly steeper angle than a 2700 fps shot. You want that change in departure angle to be enough to compensate for the difference in elevation so that a 2690 fps shot and a 2700 fps shot both hit the same spot on the target. This is impossible if you have a barrel pointing at precisely the same angle for both shots. A 2690 fps shot and a 2700 fps shot that both come from a mythical completely static barrel that never moves will hit the target at different elevations. They must, for their velocities differ. If, however, your barrel is swinging upwards while both shots leave then the 2700 fps shot will be at a slightly lower angle of departure than the 2690 fps shot because the faster one spends less time in the barrel than the slower one. So the faster shot has a slightly lower angle of departure and the slower shot has a slightly higher angle of departure. Since the slower shot MUST leave at a slightly higher angle in order to hit the same spot this upwards swing is obviously desirable. The trick is to fine-tune how slowly/quickly the barrel is swinging so that it helps the 2690 fps shots and 2700 fps shots leave at the angles required to hit the same spot. Any ballistic calculator will show you how much vertical you will be talking about with a 2690 fps shot and a 2700 fps shot at any given target distance. The 1000 yards that get used in F-Class are quite sufficient to show a rather large difference in elevation from just a 10 fps difference. If the ballistic calculator is detailed enough in the results it shows you then you will also be able to determine how much of a difference in departure angle would be present between a 2690 fps shot and a 2700 fps shot. This should allow you to calculate how fast the barrel needs to be swinging in order to give you the required difference in departure angle, though this figure is ultimately not very important as you can't easily reach this desired rate simply because you know the desired rate. It takes some trial and error in figuring out the barrel contour that is too fast, and then how heavy of a tuner you need to slow that "too fast" down to "just right."
I wonder if you could equate a change in temperature to a certain number of turns on the tuner? A 30 inch barrel will lengthen about 4 thousands for 20 degrees F temp increase. I think that is probably one of the biggest reasons cold bore shots are off compared to shots after the barrel warms up. Anyway, I haven't done any tests (just the math on how much the steel expands) and I'm sure there are other factors to consider, but that seems like one of the bigger to consider. Good video John. 👍
So when you do your load development, what do you set your tuner to. Do you do your seating depth tuning with the tuner on zero or do you set it up a few notches to give you some room to go down?
Yep, I wouldn't even know about F-class John if not seeing him on the Cortina channel so this seems wrong, I don't believe you can beat the EC and you can have a comp with it too.
Why are there so many ads? Every couple minutes an ad interrupts the video and if I don't skip after 5 seconds because it's nothing I'm interested in, another one will play. Annoying.
I do the best I can with the ads but a lot is out of my control. I have the setting as minimal as I can so it's RUclips deciding what to do at that point. You can always join my Patreon for even more detailed videos and zero ads.
Ya for some reason I got a lot of ads on this one too (feels like more than normal). I'm not complaining (advertisers supporting firearms content, I'll never complain!), I'm getting this content for free, I'd do the Patreon thing if I could, but ya, if you didn't mean to have this many ads maybe check the settings.
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For those wondering, I recorded 49 shots on my LabRadar and had an SD of 4.1 and ES of 15 so across the test it was a very stable load.
What was the range on this?
I was talking about his tuner, I understand that he introducing a tool. But Eric Cortina I think has got the market covered in the tuner arena. I do enjoy both channels, take care guys.
Oh no Eric's not gonna like this.... Hahahaha
You should try using a plain muzzle brake that you like, only screw em down tight against a nut instead of the crush washer. You can then have the brake out from the shoulder at different lengths.
Always snug em up against a nut. I get the best groups all within 1 & 2 turns. Some weight on the end of the barrel seems to help most of the time. Now adjust the brake the same as the tuners & tighten down.
Same basic concept except we aren't allowed to use muzzle brakes in F Class so I don't have any. There are tuners out there that use set screws, lock washers, friction washers and o-rings and they each work respectably well for how they're designed. I totally get what you're saying but it's not practical in f class 1)becuase we don't have muzzle brakes and 2) if you find yourself needing to make a tuner change quickly it's not practical but I appreciate where you're coming from and in other disciplines it probably works great.
Great explanation John , I have a tuner on my FClass 308 and yes they work to tune a good load but I have found it won’t fix a bad load it will improve it a little but it won’t make it perfect , thanks for the video Mate , Steve .
A
Thanks for posting this. I purchased two of Dan’s Tuners. I shoot a Vudoo. Because my barrel is threaded and a different diameter an adapter was needed. Dan designed an adapter that fits my application. Tuners and adapters should be here this week. I noticed you sometimes shoot Rattlesnake Mountain. I live by Yakima and go there on Tuesdays to shoot .22 matches.
I'll repeat a test like this several times and get different results each time
In about ten years, I'll have to revisit this.
Thanks for sharing your experience
Thanks for the video and information. Good job explaining the tuner .
Glad you found it helpful.
good stuff Mr. John....thanks man....OnWard.....
A tuner simply slows a barrel down. Combine a barrel contour that swings a little to fast and a tuner that is only heavy enough to slow it down just the right amount and you’ve got a great combination. Without a tuner you want a barrel contour that swings a little too fast, resulting in faster shots hitting slightly lower than slower shots. That indicates your barrel is swinging upwards at the time the bullet exits, and is swinging faster than optimal. Then you add a tuner that slows it down just enough to make the faster and slower shots hit at the same elevation. Faster shots start hitting higher than slower shots and you’ve slowed it down too much, too much tuner weight or rotated out too far. Simple concept that practically everyone does not understand, and in a lot of cases even actively refuse to try to understand.
When a gun is fired the barrel reacts by moving in an elliptical motion while the bullet is travelling down it, it stops at the very top and the bottom of the motion before changing directions like a ball thrown straight up will stop just before it starts back down. The goal of the tuner is to time the bullet exit at the top or bottom of the harmonic when the barrel hesitates before moving in the opposite direction, no question you will get better accuracy if the bullet is exiting a stationary barrel. Barrel harmonics can change depending on the ammo shot thru it so a tuner adjusted for one load probably won't be perfect for another load and a load and barrel that causes more severe harmonics will benefit more from a tuner. The only barrels that won't benefit from a tuner would be one cut exactly correct so the bullet exits at the top or bottom of the harmonics, pretty rare, but the difference a tuner makes can be difficult to prove depending on how consistent the rifle and ammo are along with the test set up.
@@CCW1911 Actually, no, the goal of a tuner is to have the bullet exiting while the barrel is swinging upwards at a rate that will be helpful the target distance you're shooting. If you have a completely stopped barrel then you will have vertical that directly corresponds to the velocity difference from shot to shot. This is obviously undesirable. What you want is the barrel swinging upwards just fast enough to compensate for the shot-to-shot velocity differences such that a shot that is 2690 fps will be leaving at a slightly steeper angle than a 2700 fps shot. You want that change in departure angle to be enough to compensate for the difference in elevation so that a 2690 fps shot and a 2700 fps shot both hit the same spot on the target. This is impossible if you have a barrel pointing at precisely the same angle for both shots. A 2690 fps shot and a 2700 fps shot that both come from a mythical completely static barrel that never moves will hit the target at different elevations. They must, for their velocities differ. If, however, your barrel is swinging upwards while both shots leave then the 2700 fps shot will be at a slightly lower angle of departure than the 2690 fps shot because the faster one spends less time in the barrel than the slower one. So the faster shot has a slightly lower angle of departure and the slower shot has a slightly higher angle of departure. Since the slower shot MUST leave at a slightly higher angle in order to hit the same spot this upwards swing is obviously desirable. The trick is to fine-tune how slowly/quickly the barrel is swinging so that it helps the 2690 fps shots and 2700 fps shots leave at the angles required to hit the same spot. Any ballistic calculator will show you how much vertical you will be talking about with a 2690 fps shot and a 2700 fps shot at any given target distance. The 1000 yards that get used in F-Class are quite sufficient to show a rather large difference in elevation from just a 10 fps difference. If the ballistic calculator is detailed enough in the results it shows you then you will also be able to determine how much of a difference in departure angle would be present between a 2690 fps shot and a 2700 fps shot. This should allow you to calculate how fast the barrel needs to be swinging in order to give you the required difference in departure angle, though this figure is ultimately not very important as you can't easily reach this desired rate simply because you know the desired rate. It takes some trial and error in figuring out the barrel contour that is too fast, and then how heavy of a tuner you need to slow that "too fast" down to "just right."
Very Interesting! Great video.
I wonder if you could equate a change in temperature to a certain number of turns on the tuner? A 30 inch barrel will lengthen about 4 thousands for 20 degrees F temp increase. I think that is probably one of the biggest reasons cold bore shots are off compared to shots after the barrel warms up. Anyway, I haven't done any tests (just the math on how much the steel expands) and I'm sure there are other factors to consider, but that seems like one of the bigger to consider. Good video John. 👍
I don't know for sure but it's an interesting theory. Maybe I can try to address it later. Thank you.
.....as if there isn't enough variables right,....then add a tuner to adjust everytime variables change harmonics.....lol
Rotation+7 to rotation+12 is where I'd do some more testing
Yep for sure! Thank you.
I should put a tuner on my 300 prc cause I can't find a seating depth node.
It sure can't hurt. If you need a brake too then check out the Cortina tuner brake www.shootsmallgroups.com/product/ec-tuner-brake-ss-5-8-24-thread/
So when you do your load development, what do you set your tuner to. Do you do your seating depth tuning with the tuner on zero or do you set it up a few notches to give you some room to go down?
Typically I do all of my testing at zero and only go out words from there. Too many variables when you have the ability to go up and down.
@@FClassJohn So starting at zero, you tune the ammo, then find the antinodes in the tuner last?
Man you know this is gonna cause waves with someone.........lol
.....insane video....lol....Thanks fer sharing.
Glad you enjoyed it. Thank you.
Stick with Eric Cortina!!!
Yep, I wouldn't even know about F-class John if not seeing him on the Cortina channel so this seems wrong, I don't believe you can beat the EC and you can have a comp with it too.
In all fairness I'm pretty sure Dan Bramley came out first.
@@wilfdarr Erik has been making tuners for about 8 years. Dan’s are more recent than that.
@@FClassJohn Oh really? Is tand corrected! I only heard about them the last couple years. My bad.
You can still shoot in California??
I look at those groups and think that's just shooter error.
Eric who ? are tunners allowed in F class comp ?
Tuners are definitely allowed (but not brakes). Eric Cortina makes a full line of tuners and tuner brakes as well (that's who I was talking about).
You are joking right? Eric Cortina has an amazing F- Class channel: if you're serious and you don't know who that is, you are really missing out.
Tuners does work
Why are there so many ads? Every couple minutes an ad interrupts the video and if I don't skip after 5 seconds because it's nothing I'm interested in, another one will play. Annoying.
I do the best I can with the ads but a lot is out of my control. I have the setting as minimal as I can so it's RUclips deciding what to do at that point. You can always join my Patreon for even more detailed videos and zero ads.
Ya for some reason I got a lot of ads on this one too (feels like more than normal). I'm not complaining (advertisers supporting firearms content, I'll never complain!), I'm getting this content for free, I'd do the Patreon thing if I could, but ya, if you didn't mean to have this many ads maybe check the settings.
I did not get one? Must be whacked U Tube getting worse?