Amazing 900 YEAR OLD Japanese SWORD VS Medieval European Sword Preservation
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 10 ноя 2021
- Looking at an amazing 900 year old Japanese tachi, or samurai sword ( / museum.of.artifacts ) I see people comparing ancient Japanese sword preservation to medieval European swords. We need to make realistic comparisons, like with like, and also explain some of the differences of context.
Patreon & Extra Videos: / scholagladiatoria
Support & extra content on Subscribestar: www.subscribestar.com/matt-ea...
Facebook & Twitter updates, info and fun:
/ historicalfencing
/ scholagladiato1
Schola Gladiatoria HEMA - sword fighting classes in the UK:
www.swordfightinglondon.com
Matt Easton's website and services:
www.matt-easton.co.uk/
Easton Antique Arms:
www.antique-swords.co.uk/ 
Развлечения
Strange geisha laying in streams distributing katanas is no basis for a Shogunate.
Well said!!! XD
Top comment!
If I went around claiming I was emperor just because some moistened bint lobbed a tachi at me, they'd put me away!
@@Blaisem you never know, maybe it would work. 🤷♂️
Solid!
In Japan, they repolish old blades as a sign of respect for the blade.
In Europe, they do not repolish old blades as a sign of respect for the blade.
A fascinating difference of perspective.
Pretty sure in Europe is an archeological affair. In Japan is about cultural pride via aesthetics mostly.
Now no-one ever can tell how that blade was originally polished. If that blade was put away in the 12th or 15th century studying it would reveal the 12th or 15th century polishing techniques. Maybe even what minerals, grit were used, or what were the movements of the period craftsman. Now studying the blade will only reveal how a 21st century craftsman polished it.
@John Martlew It is a respect for history.
Also it is quite questionable how polished the original blade was. Even Edo period samurai were much more casual with their sword than people today.
i dunno how true is this but iirc if the folklore were to be trusted, ancienct japanese martial arts practitioners believe the blades have a spirit of their own, hence it is to be cared for, and instead of discarding it, it is sent to temples so the spirits may find rest. thus why the blades are maintained instead of letting it decay.
@@wytfish4855 There were several sword hunts in Japan. When swords and other weapons were collected and melted down. Iron was relatively rare in Japan they tended to recycle broken or worn swords.
The edge hardness in katanas were relatively high. That means they got chipped often. You can re-profile a blade only so often. Katana also broke. Generally if you use a sword sooner or later it will break.
In the Edo period there were about 400 000 samurai families with about 1.9 million members. Before that, samurai were outnumbered by the ashigaru or foot soldiers. Every one of them had a sword.
If what you say were true the temples would be filled with swords to the brim. I don't think there are more than a few thousand pre-19th century katana around today.
In the Edo period that enjoyed 250 years peace most samurai were simple bureaucrats who never pulled their sword.
Japanese folklore cannot be trusted more than European folklore. Samurai adhered to bushido about as much as medieval knight followed the rules of chivalry.
Incidentally, recently a Aztec Macuahuitl was rediscovered in a museum archive in Mexico. It's being shown off in the Templo Mayor museum now. Before this, the last known surviving Macuahuitl was a very intact specimen (alonsgside a paired Tepoztopilli, a sort of Mesoamerican polearm) housed in the Royal Armory of Madrid where it was erronously grouped in with Japanese armor and a persian shield, the the Armory suffered from a fire and the Macuahuitl and Tepoztopilli were destroyed, though sketches and photos exist of them you can look up, showing that contrary to how manuscripts depict the weapon, the entire edges were lined with flush blades without gaps. In contrast, the current rediscovered specimen is missing all of it's blades and is damaged in other ways, but it's still neat. I believe there may actually be another lost extant specimen in a different archive but I'll need to dig through my sources again.
If you find them please post some links here. Also do you have links to the other two you mentioned? Thanks
How in the world did they manage to group Persian, Japanese, and MesoAmerican stuff together?
holy cow thats amazing news, I remember readingt about how there was only one Macahuitl left.
Think this falls under the gun collectors too. Reblueing old firearms and sanding down stocks to get a like new finish is very much frowned upon. The rub marks and scratches are considered part of the character of the piece.
True, but I'm also reminded of Mark Novak's frequent refrain, "When does lack of maintenance become patina?" A lot of what people think of as "patina" is just rust, often under a layer of dirty grease. No, I don't polish that off or reblue it, but I absolutely do thoroughly clean it and take measures to stop the rust, sometimes even converting it back to the original black oxide finish. A lot of people who think they're "preserving the patina" are in reality just allowing the rust to continue.
@@itsapittie this I completely agree with. Rust is damage and needs to be stopped. I'm talking of the signs of use.
@@BoomerZ.artist I think it depends on the circumstances. I've restored some firearms to like-new condition but they had no collector value and were going to be shooters. It extended their useful life. I think that's essentially what Japanese sword owners were doing when they replaced hilts, repolished blades, etc. At the time they did it, the sword's primary value was its functionality. At the point a sword or firearm attains collectible status, its functional life is essentially over.
@@itsapittie I'm not a smith of any kind but I agree completely. A few years back I bought at a yard sale an old sirupate (more slender variant of the kukri) that had some rust spots. An antique dealer gave it a casual inspection and appraisal, and advised me not to remove the rust.
I did anyway (and sharpened it and gave it a "near polish" because I wanted to use it which I have, on camping trips and to split firewood at home) and am very pleased with the result. I do not believe that I've negatively impacted its "value" because the dealer could not place or date its origin.
@@markfergerson2145 And there's the thing: what is the value of a piece that cannot be accurately dated or ascribed to a particular maker? I remember an old episode of the American version of the 'Antiques Roadshow'. A woman brought in an old table she had purchased on the cheap from a garage sale. It was horribly dirty from years of neglect. All she had done was remove some mold, and was praised for preserving the table's patina. But then it was discovered that the table was a rare piece made by an early American maker. By the time the table got to auction, it had been 'restored' by the antique experts; all the 'precious patina' removed and it had been returned to like new condition. The table sold for around a half a million dollars. The value of patina and age is completely arbitrary, a conceit by current collectors.
N.B.: This, of course, does not apply to archaeological artifacts, as the removal of corrosion, etc, would destroy the item.
One thing to add is that the culturally important blades in Japan are usually polished VERY rarely, and then usually only by the very best polishers (living national treasure status). The polisher will often leave certain "flaws" that could be polished out to make it perfect depending on how that would change the overall sugata (or shape). Then add in the complexity of the different "levels" of polish, as well as the additional step of hadori which is a "newer" step in polishing, and some blades will not have this particular step done and left in shashikomi.
Modern Japanese smiths like the Yoshihara family subscribe to making swords in period style at a "healthy" state, which may not have been the case in many other periods. This is another interesting difference between the rest of the world's preservation of swords vs the Japanese. The modern smiths have actively pursued lost techniques and reforging copies (utsushimono).
The Japanese have a similar attitude to architecture. The castles / temples may be on their original sites but they're periodically rebuilt so "you can see them as the architect intended". Same attitude is applied to swords, whereas we prefer authentically crumbling ruins. Different cultural approaches to appreciating history I suppose.
It's nice to have both. There might have been some forgotten but useful piece of kit on Theseus' ship that was lost. At the same time Theseus' ship did not look or function like a pile of sea bitten planks.
@@iivin4233 I kind of agree with what you are saying but fundamentally I think the repairing and restoration is preferable to European ruins. It's not necessarily accurate to say the Japanese would rebuild their buildings either, (unless seriously damaged for instance in a earthquake or burned down etc.) often it is more of a continuous process of maintenance and restoration than total rebuild. (depends on the buildings, lots of modern Japanese castles are essentially replicas not originals) There is a temple that is quite large near my wife's family home in Nakhon Pathom Thailand, the original temple dates back to ancient Greece. Yet the main building looks practically new, In this particular case the Chedi not only was maintained but was also even entombed under a fresh patina of structure periodically over millennia, like layers of paint. It is honestly incredible to visit such sites that have so much history, but aren't dead ancient crumbling ruins but very much "alive" so to speak. It had a deep impact on me in regards to the power of their culture and traditions.
For example and for the sake of argument, take Notre Dame, it's not going to be left a burned out ruin, it is going to be repaired and rejuvenated; but I don't think that will make it any less impressive or "original" 20 years from now, or another 500 years from now. At some point in European history certain pieces of architecture just fell to disrepair and were abandoned for various reasons, but it's rather sad. I don't find the abandoned husks any more "original" or "real" than something maintained throughout the ages. The Theseus's ship idea is certainly interesting, from a purely philosophical point of view. However, just look at a actual ship like the USS constitution or HMS victory, nearly every piece of wood in those ships have been replaced from their originals, are they less historical because of it?
@@-Zevin- well, they may not be any less historical, but they definitely are historical in a different way.
Like, what if the statue of liberty was repolished every year?
Once Notre dom gets fixed up its still going to feel different.
It is some sense looses an “edifice” quality and becomes, like you said, a ship of theseus.
Most Japanese castles we see today were rebuilt during the 1950s and 1960s with reinforced concrete, as more than 98% of Japanese castles were destroyed before 1900.
There were around 3000 castles at the end of the Sengoku period. 90% of them were demolished at the beginning of the Edo period, due to the "One Castle per Province" edict. During the first decade of the Meiji period, about 85% of the remaining castles were also removed, as they became obsolete. And many of the rest didn't survive the WW2.
Some of them have been destroyed too. Famously the Kinkaku-ji (the temple of the golden pavilion) was burned by a young monk in 1950, and then rebuilt.
It was a shame too, because it had avoided destruction so many other times.
It's definitely worth mentioning that this is why you NEVER clean or polish the tang on a Japanese sword. If the blade is constantly being re-polished the untouched patina and construction of the tang are critical to determining its age/authenticity.
Its not just the patina but also that the tang usually contains identifying marks and not always kanji either, there are certain styles of filing patterns known and attributed to various swordsmiths and smithing schools.
It's really a matter of perspective, I believe.
One hand, not restoring means being truthful to the original material.
On the other hand, by restoring and polishing, you are being truthful to what the original was intended to look like
I think it's also important that Japan has also passed down their polishing techniques rigorously. As a result, when they polish them it's done in the exact same way as when it was made and used. We don't normally have the exact methodology a European sword would have been polished in it's time. Putting a 21st century polish on a 10th century sword is bad. Using a 10th century polish on a 10th century sword in the 21st century is fine. You can only do that if your polishing technique has been passed down over the centuries. See the Ise Grand Shrine, a real life 'Ship of Theseus'.
To an extent, the exterior is a part of the history that the sword has been through, too.
It's entirely subjective, so there's lots of ways to look at it, but that's certainly a reasonable one, imo.
@@m0nkEz Definitely true the exterior can be a part of history. For this specific Temple sword, we can be reasonably assured it was stored in the polished state and the exterior is just random grime. For a river find, I don't think you should polish as the exterior does have that history.
It's kind of a funny distinction isn't it. I mean if this thing has survived without major decay, it's not really history is it? It's present. It's just that it's "present" has lasted longer than many other examples of it's kind. We just think of it as a "historical artefact" because we associate it with a bygone era. We decide that it must be held in this state of stasis, though of course that state is rarely descriptive of the time it was created in, and much more descriptive of the various states it's existed in between its loss and rediscovery. Whether that's valuable or not is sort of another discussion, like do we care what effect sitting in a bog for a thousand years has on a sword, or do we want to know more about a sword made a thousand years ago?
In both cases, polishing or leaving as found, the item has been altered from its original state. And neither are going to be a perfect example of what the item was like before it became lost to history.
"by restoring and polishing, you are being truthful to what the original was intended to look like"
No, you're being truthful to what YOU THINK it was intended to look like. How many medieval artifacts were ruined in the 19th century with this mindset? Are ancient statues supposed to be white marble?
It's a choice between total preservation and interpretation. I know what I'd choose.
I remember in an episode of Man at Arms:Reforged on RUclips that Ilya showed a katana blade that was forged in 1661 with Gunto fittings
Interesting. Seems like the Japanese attitude to sword preservation is more similar to how a lot of European historical buildings are preserved: a balance between functionality and visible history/patina (for some reason we like when copper turns green (probably because it preserves the rest of the metal unlike rust)). Probably a good point then that the Japanese swords were continuously usable up until very recently because that makes them comparable to historical buildings, rather than ruins.
I was actually thinking that the Japanese have a different attitude to historic building preservation which seems reflected in how they preserve swords - and the same is true for our attitude to historic buildings. In Japan, many historic buildings such as temples and castles are kept looking brand new and even demolished and rebuilt using modern building techniques and materials to keep them looking pristine - but they still count as the original building in their eyes. Whereas with historic buildings in the west we prefer it if they look old and you can see the passage of time weighing on them.
😂😓........
@@The_Captain40k in the uk i find our conservation architects have variying interpretations of the methods and levels of preservation, as do different region's conservation officers.
I was working on a castle-ruin recently, we were given very little instruction and what we was actually asked to do didnt seem like a logical use of the budget at all when more obvious and immediate problems were apparent. Unfortunately not very many of these jobs take place for people to gain experience from. Most of what we did was what we thought needed doing.
Theres lots of things we've been asked to do over the years that we have ethier successfully made a diplomatic case against, or in worst case had to directly refuse as a matter of principle. For example to remove original pointing 700+ years old when we can't find any issue with it. But sometimes grant money needs using up and some architects want their 10% to be as large as possible.
Our philosophy is always minimal intervention, and as 'like for like' as practically possible. With added functionality being another grey area with controversial interpretations. Whilst the uk style of conservation is distinctly different to the east, id argue its implementation is not particularly consistent because of the subjectivity of the philosophy and the way the field has evolved over time.
@@sprogg11 My personal experience of looking at archaeology service budgets brings me to the following consclusion. If you want to spend a lot of money, simply hire a ton of portable fencing and then forget all about it. At the end of the financial year you will receive one **** of an invoice 🤪
It's completely understandable to keep old swords polished and maintained if they're expected to be continually used, but if someone just wanted to preserve the weapon as a display piece (like people often do for a antique collection), then it'd make more sense to leave it alone without heavy maintenance. That being said, it is nice that we're able to see such an old blade renewed to what it probably looked like shortly after its creation.
Yeah the cultural differences are huge. If people would find for example good condition medieval longsword suddenly from some monastery museum curators would loose their shit if someone polishes it. In japan its just part of the culture to do so even though it would loose metal from historical artefact. Here its like artefacts are preserved in condition they are found.
Yes, it is their culture. Things are done because of style and fashion, and later became tradition. The spine is burnished and the edge can be colored. Burnishing the steel makes it much more resistant to rusting. But it was fashion and style, and now tradition to burnish the spine and finely grind the edge and even paint over the edge and side to brighten and darken.
I believe in Japan the legal apprenticeship of a sword smith is a minimum of ten years, while the apprenticeship of sword polisher is 15 years. The sword polisher's job entails the preservation of antique blades, and so he needs to be able to recognizes all the different schools and eras of sword makers. It's a job far more complex and labor intensive than the sword smith, who I think regrettably receives far more attention in the West.
I think it's because the culture around the blade grinder is dead in the west. Modern bladesmiths basically do most of the jobs that were more compartmentalized in the past and blade grinders are one of those that have gone by the way side. You can still find old documentaries on English blade grinders and the jobs seemed very high skilled.
@@fallenstudent1103 I absolutely agree with you. There are all sorts of traditional crafts the West have lost because of new technologies. How many people in Britain or Europe can still make a traditional thatched roof? European sword makers have only recently been invested in making swords in the style of the old. Europeans are a pragmatic lot, and we did away with what was deemed unnecessary. Loosing many old skills and knowledge along the way. As Matt discussed, there are deep cultural reasons for this. Japan is always hard to make comparisons with because it is, and always has been, one of the most culturally isolated places in the world.
@@Trav_Can I know that was a rhetorical question, but according to the Wikipedia there are around 1,000 full-time thatchers in the United Kingdom.
@@Trav_Can This is happening all around the world right this very moment and it makes me quite sad. In Thailand for instance there was a proud tradition too of knife and sword making much like Japan, in-fact both Siam and Japan had a very close trade relationship going back to the middle ages. "The cordial relations between our two countries cannot be destroyed. Since we both have mutual trust, the existence of a sea between us is not of any significance." - Letter by the Tokugawa shōgun to King Songtham of Siam.
However in Thailand the sword and martial culture has almost completely died out, unlike how it has been preserved in Japanese culture through war, theatre, films, video games etc. The Siamese were also a very pragmatic people, at the earliest opportunity heavily investing in modern technologies and trends, considering the old alternatives obsolete and unnecessary (It's one of the reasons they are 1 of only a couple countries in history never colonized by European powers) I lived in Thailand and many adult Thai people today don't even know what Thai knives or swords are called in their own language because it is so irrelevant to them, and today there is only 1-2 traditional blade smiths that I am aware of making traditional Thai Dah swords, with traditional tools, and I have searched extensively in Thailand over years, including in the Thai language. One of the smiths I know of that lives in Chang Mai is in his late seventies, and has no apprentice as far as I know.
If it's anything like the multiyear sushi rice washer apprenticeship, then the timelength may be exaggerated.
Thank you for covering this! As soon as I saw your article on FB I wondered about it's condition.
It's interesting that you mentioned re-polishing in Japanese swords. I have seen a video on RUclips about traditional Japanese Swordmaking, and once the blade is made the Swordsmith takes the blade to a sword polisher who is a specialist who only polishes swordblades. Then the Swordsmith goes and picks up the blade from the polisher and finishes the sword for his customer. Also the polisher charges the Swordsmith a fee for polishing the blade and the Swordsmith adds that fee to the cost of the finished sword when he charges his customer for it. If I'm not mistaken, in Europe Blacksmiths either polished the swordblade before themselves or had one of their apprentices do it. There wasn't a polisher as a separate speciality in Europe as there was and still is in Japan.
This could tell us that polishing in Europe was usually not as in depth as it was in Japan. I’d also imaging if a samurai needed a sword very quickly for war, they’d skip the heavy polishing until the sword was brought back.
No, in Europe it was very similar although much of the grinding/polishing was done via water powered wheels. Forging/hardening necessitated relatively low light levels whereas grinding and polishing demanded much high levels of light in the workspace. The grinders/polishers worked in separate workshops.
Is hylozoism, the belief that spirits inhabit inanimate objects, a factor in the preservation Japanese swords? Thanks for another excellent presentation!
Probably, lots of horimono and they believe kami (spirits) inhabit the blade.
i think there is part of unsheating you have to make a small bow to the sword, show some respect. also the fact that the japanese see swords as art objects too not just historical objects that deserve extra care.
Thank you Matt for another great video, a really clean cut, and also brilliant education (sorry not sorry for the pun) on different cultures' treatments and upkeeps on swords. I look forward to the next video.
in the west a similar concept exists in art though, when professional restorers clean, refresh and sometimes even repaint bits of historical masterpieces of huge importance, paintings or often frescos that would be lost forever otherwise. i remember i was impressed by the amazing job the restorers made on the Cappella Sistina ( i believe it took like a decade to be finished), although some art historians were not super happy. well of course, you do that then? no..?
that is true for furniture as well. a shame if that chair from the 17th century was eaten by bugs right?
for sure a controversial topic. i believe that, depending on the subject, we should apply the appropriate line of action, in order to preserve our cultural heritage as best as we can, for the generations to come.
The obsession some people have with maintaining old things in a state of disrepair is baffling to me. Like the people with old cars and trucks that get a clear coat over the "patina" of the vehicle. It's a blight, a sign of lack of care and maintenance, on what would be a lovely vehicle. To me, it makes more sense to restore an object, if it's possible without destroying said object.
@@Vykk_Draygo idk, I think it has its own merits. like sculpture has taken on a tradition of doing things in plain white marble, even though og marble statues were often painted.
Or another thing is ruin art which is a whole subset of art on the topic of ruins like roman and medieval. I think there is a specific apeal in the “weathering” of something as well, just as someone might like worn jeans, it implies a history, rather than a static representation of a time period. showing age proudly on your chest rather than ignoring that the old thing is old. appreciating it as an artifact rather than a recreation.
Not saying how thats always how it should be, there is a place for maintaining things in their intended condition, but I think intentionally drawing attention to it being aged has its own quality as well.
The Western approach seems to draw a hard line between objects that have been in continuous use and objects that have been cut off from use. Our architecture in continuous use we are happy to maintain, to paint and keep up, and most restrictions (be they legal or just social) are focused on preventing substantial change and redevelopment. And yet when we find ruined buildings - ones that have been disused long enough to no longer work - we consider it appropriate to keep up their current condition meticulously but potentially inappropriate to rebuild it, and definitely inappropriate to redesign it into a new thing.
The telling thing with swords seems to be that we don't have very many old swords that were not disused long enough to be non-functional. We do have a small number of artifacts that are in excellent condition, as Matt mentions, and we are happy for that to be maintained to preserve that condition, but it would be inappropriate to restore the condition of a poor-condition artifact. The Japanese approach differs mostly in that if you find an old sword in bad condition the current condition is not regarded as a property of the sword but as a mistake, which should be corrected. And yet there's a similar belief that the age of a sword is a thing of merit that should be preserved, it just only applies to the tang of the blade. If you mirror polished the tang of a designated National Treasure there would be an outrage.
@@Vykk_Draygo "maintaining old things in a state of disrepair is baffling to me"
It's not so weird, when a conservator has to constantly struggle with undoing the old "repairs", that ruined more than they fixed.
"it makes more sense to restore an object, if it's possible without destroying said object"
Is it really possible, though? For example, you have an old, scratched and pitted engine cover on an old bike, so you decide to polish it all into a mirror. In the process you remove all the original surface, which tells us about how the cover was cast.
You have an old sword with a rotted grip, so you throw it all out and put a new grip fittings on. In the process, we lose all the information about how the original grip was constructed, and then the people who want to make an accurate replica have to guess more, instead of being able to study the original.
There are blacksmiths who study the originals for hours and hours, to discover how those things were made. If you repolish the blade, all this info will likely be lost.
I mean, people despair because someone restrung the Strat that belonged to Jimi Hendrix, just so it could be featured on a concert. How do we know what kind of strings he used? Those old strings were different than what we have now. (Inb4 - why those strings were not studied earlier? - nobody knew they existed. The owners didn't think they were of any value, obviously.)
That's why the current culture moved toward preservation instead of restoration. While being proud of the rusted hood on a truck seems excessive, I *do* like it more than what the Japanese have done. I'm glad we wouldn't even *think* of it!
i'll give you another example, in italy again, but negative: Pompei.
So, we dug out that immense treasure of history and culture frozen in time for all mankind to visit and study, right? amazing. unfortunately, during the years the administration cut money and staff causing the ruins to crumble, buildings to collapse, and generally speaking the whole thing to go in a nelected state. so much so that the former director of the site left his position because it was too heartbreaking to see such a marvel to fall apart, after all the effort given and the sacrifices of the archeologists (that very often, has to be said, in italy work for free), saying that at that point it would have been better to leave it in the ground. a damage that not even the Vesuvio was capable of doing.
that is in my opinion a perfect example of the importance of mainteining an historical object (a whole town in this case) or not touch it at all from the start.
from that point of view, i very much respect the japanese habit of restoring temples and swords and stuff.. at least they care, right? and i stop here coz i don't want to go into a political rant lol
of course if possible, we should preserve the thing as it is, for sake of future studies.
A little side note, to me is very interesting to see how people tried to give a new life to older things through centuries, it is part of our history too! like, i don't know, a 12th century sword with a 16th century guard! in the end we care to know about our ancestors so..
I have learnt a lot, again. Thank you Matt, I really appreciate your work! Both entertaining and educational. Respect!
Thank you for sharing your knowledge. Always eager to learn new things from you.
I would love to see like, one or two European swords polished up. Find some swords that are relatively little historical relevance and polish them up and put them in a museum, to show folks how they might've looked in actual use.
as mentioned at 15:55 there have been a few european swords where it has been done, mainly because it was required for some type of archeological research its unfortunate no examples where shared but even without examples I'd assume only a section of the sword was polished, not the entire blade
Brilliant video. Incredibly educational. Thanks.
Did highlander end because you became the one? Lol, great video, and love your channel.
Brilliant! I requested this not too recently!
An interesting point on how each culture looks after its heritage
I had the privilege of visiting Japan 20 years ago, and it was an unforgettable experience. Among many other things, I got to visit Nagoya Castle (built in 1617) and all of the antique swords in it. I also got to see the Eihoji (I could be spelling that completely wrong!) Temple that was built in 1313!
Matt, will you please talk about early American frontier weapons, specifically knives, tomahawks and swords. Due to the major English connection involved, I really think it's a topic that you would enjoy! All of the knives and tomahawks that weren't imported from France were imported from England. Of course, the manufacturers in Sheffield played the biggest role. Even many of the finest tomahawks were made in Sheffield! Although, by the time of the War of Independence, there were many fine colonial/American makers as well. However, I believe that the beautifully surviving tomahawk that British lieutenant colonel Henry Proctor presented to the American Indian warlord Tecumseh during the end stages of the War of 1812, was made in Sheffield.
Interesting points on history as practiced vs history as evidence 🤔 pretty cool we live in a world where we can witness and examine both!
Cheers Matt another great topic 👍
Hi Matt, your outro sounds like you are in the valley of despair if not on the slope of enlightenment on the Dunning-Kruger curve and may I add quite a head of me.
Great discussion man! I can really get behind both views on antique preservation.
Btw can you make a videos on those Medieval European swords that were differentially hardened like Japanese swords? I remember Ilya, the blade smith from That Works, say something about how most European swords were actually differential hardened and that the spring temper didn’t exist in medieval Europe. Maybe you can even colab with Todd Cutler for it!
We have references of Medieval European swords being evaluated by how much they can flex. This makes no sense unless the blade can return to its shape, which implies what to my knowledge is called a spring temper. But I admit my ignorance here, and I'd love to see a clarification.
@@emarsk77 right, I think I’ve seen a few of those references but when looking at a surviving antiques, they don’t really back up those references. They seem to have hard edges (most times) and a soft core. Again maybe there’s something I’m missing but from everything I could find, Peter Johnson, Ilya, and Alan Williams have all come to this conclusion that European swords were made this way.
It’s a shame after all this time, Matt still hasn’t made an in depth video on it cuz I’d really like to know his perspective/research
Thanks for sharing 👍
Well put video man
To my particular opinion I would have figured that polishing is nothing more than cleaning it, it's not like they're reforging it or anything. I can understand that doing it way too much would wear down but I wouldn't think that simply cleaning it would be that big of deal
Polishing removes a layer of metal. Each blade only has a few polishes in it, before it essentially becomes too thin.
@@scholagladiatoria I do understand, I'm only saying that sometimes to get the shine we all like, it's simply just wiping off the dirt either way great video!! I wish I had the money to buy one of the ancient "well preserved" nearly perfect swords for myself though would love to test their strengths and weaknesses against modern forging styles if I could
@@scholagladiatoria I'd love to see some examples of this. I see a lot of people making this statement but I've yet to see an actual objective example. How much material is removed? How much must be removed if there is no pitting? How much polishing can a well preserved blade endure, or different types of blades with different metal type/structure at that. My gut feeling is that people my be overestimating how much material is being removed. Just comes from owning knives that have been in my family since my great grandfather. They are still very serviceable. While they are never truely mirror polished they are fairly well cared for so I'm curious.
Reminds me of the coronation sword of Polish kinks called Szczerbiec, it was probadly made around the year 1200 and it has be constantly repolished for almost 600 years for major occasions. Let's just say it's a lot thinner and shorter then originally and it would probadly not survive another 600 years of polishing.
Final polish on any steel object is subject to its composition and heat treatment. Holtzapffel tools for ornamental turning lathes were made of very hard fine grain steel that was mirror polished, as it had to produce a final finish on items that couldn't be polished after manufacture. Japanese swords are polished, then burnished, all of which takes time and a lot of effort to preserve all of the angles where plane surfaces meet. Not to mention keeping those surfaces flat. This is why you don't try polishing in your garage on a damp Sunday afternoon with a discount store belt sander 🤣
good video, very informative.
Isn't it nice that there are so many ways of doing things. A good swords is for me is one that is like an extension of my hand and arm. I have found that pleasure in so many different kinds of swords. I collect coins, I like the ones that have seen life, but a hard cor collector likes the ones that have not. Who is right. Well, I am. So glad you are going to continue to be Matt Easton.
Fascinating info.
Matt
What sword is that you are handling at the beginning of your video here ? The Katana rather .
Excellent content . Always very interesting topic . That is the brilliance of your videos imho . Being able to source interesting topics after so many videos under your belt etc etc . Well done 👍
Very good analysis. Holds true for old guns too. One man’s rust is another’s pattena .
I may be wrong but I think I remember it from one of Todd's videos. I don't think we even know how polished historic Europeans swords even were. Even when brand new it's likely they were never mirror polished to the degree Japanese swords were.
Ceremonial swords could not have been polished to a mirror finish because doing so might remove decorative elements like etchings or gilding. Even in their original state, the blade would have been just gleamy.
japanese swords when in use where not that shiny in war also they probly had a satin polish
You are wrong. They were well polished. There are several blades from medieval tombs with parts of original polishing preserved, and it was of very good quality. Even in Iceland it was possible to find specialist to re-polish your family blade by hand, using stones and water..
Later (say since 13 century) buffing wheel on water mill made polish even more available but ugly.
Oh, and fancy grip-wrapping with intricatelly twisted silk cord was not Japanese phenomenon also. 14 centure European artisan was able to do it too and as good as Japanese.
@@sasasasa-lx6cl if your talking to me then i have a few war sword there in a stain polish barely see the hamon most are like this
"We can't compare Japanese sword preservation with medieval European sword preservation."
*spends 20 minutes comparing Japanese sword preservation with medieval European sword preservation*
Great video though, very informative!
What is the name of that sword you show at 6:25? Searching for French Coronation Sword just brings up Joyeuse.
Hey Matt, what about storage differences? Japanese hilts can be (by design) completely disassembled and removed, and the bare blade stored in a shirasaya style mounting specifically designed for long-term storage:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_sword_mountings#Shirasaya
Just a guess, but that 900-year old Japanese blade is unmounted (at least in that picture from the article), maybe indicating that it was stored in such a manner when it was hidden in the ceiling of the temple. As far as I'm aware, nothing quite the same exists within a European context.
I think the example they showed in the picture is after the polishing job, but yeah it possibly could have been put in a shirasaya mount
There is a video I remember seeing where, while katanas kept the shape very well, there are quite a few differences in stuff like weight based on what fighting styles were in use at the time.
I once read an article about japanese sword polishers 'opening a window' into some swords from greece (?, steel / iron Kopis I think).
it was done by the museum to learn more about the metallurgy & heat-treatment.
If I'm not mistaken the discovered a differential hardening line as well as a grain structure from folding
If you somehow remember where to find that article and can share it, it would be appreciated.
What comes to my mind is this. Corrosion continues. By repolishing, you are putting the artifact in a condition that makes its preservation better.
Also have to remember that a samurai would have the blade serviced (polished) after every battle or deul
We practice preservation, they practice restoration. We keep and show the history of the object. They keep and show how the original artist wanted the object to appear. Both are based on respect for the object.
I was very intrigued by point #4. Interesting how different cultures show "respect" for the sword as an artefact.
"To conclude", 4 minutes 22 before the end of the video. 😂
Ah, but in the context of the video... :P
It belonged to Yoda, clearly at that old, it must've been his
It was Master Splinter's.
Looks good for its age....I mean, when 900 years old you reach, look so good you will not.
@@genghisgalahad8465 900 years? I look terrible at 38.
"And I think it's too easy to make comparisons between European and Japanese when actually it's a much more complicated topic." This hits the nail on the head. There's always going to be bias, and a drive to oversimplify the other side to make one's own seem 'better' when in reality things are just different, with different drives and motivations.
Couple of points:
Europe HAS sword re-polishing culture. It is mentioned in sagas and one of the important artefacts in Sutton Hoo was polishing stone.
It was not very hard to find a specialist to re-polish your blade - even in Iceland - and quality will be similar to Japanese polishing.
European ceremonial and important swords WERE re-polished even after this culture was largelly discontinued and forgotten. Blade of Charlemagne sword is a great example of damages a fool with buffing wheel can do (there is also Polish coronation sword with literally holes in the blade caused by "care" in 19 century, probably by the same bunch of retired soldiers which was responsible for paper-thin but shiny Gothic armour in Hermitage).
Many of the swords from churches and cathedrals lost their shine quite late, after they were removed from treasuries and changed hands several times. Sword of St.Maurice in Paris is a good example of such damage, blade survived in great condition for 500 years and was ruined in less than 20.
Re-polishing probably was totally discarded when guilding and etching became popular and when sword, even with beatifull blued and guilded blade was not the most valuable possesion anymore.
I was thinking about this topic a few months ago and came up with basically same conclusions
The earlier reporting indicates that the was a "kohoki" (?) - hadn't heard that term before - and was "rusty" and had to be cleaned up. I can't find any photos of the piece in the condition it was in when discovered. As Matt points out the location where the blade resided between when it was discarded, stored, or lost and when it was discovered is critical to its condition.
There are also a lot of stories of swords being stuck into scabbards due to either humidity and or rust
Kohouki was a swordmaking school in the Heian era.
Great talk Matt, and awesome points. I kept waiting to hear you bring up Dr. Stefan Mäder, since you are almost certainly familiar with his work.
For those interested in that sort of thing, this madman DID go against the convention we have in the west, and brought an Alemannic seax to a Japanese togishi for full polishing. As a result we were able to learn that these Sax knives were (at times) deferentially hardened, to the point of showing a decorative hamon, much like a Japanese blade.
I don't know that I can fully subscribe to this type of experimental archeology, but it is still fascinating!
It's a bit like having a genuine 1873 Colt "Peacemaker" and sending it away to be re-blued or nickel plated. There's a 500 year old shovel in a Japanese museum, it's had three new heads and seven new handles.
The is a difference to maintenance, or replacing broken parts, and replacing the entire object.
You're a lucky man, Matt!
Makes me wonder, in the days before air conditioning and de-humidifiers, how the Japanese temple swords were maintained in a polished state. And how frequently they were polished to remove surface rust just from atmospheric moisture. ???? Fascinating, as ever.
Oil also helps, as does wrapping them. But yeah, Japan is crazy humid, so it does bring up questions.
You are completely correct in your examples of why comparing Japanese and European swords of the same era is problematic when looking at the surviving examples condition. One thing you didn't mention is that Japanese warriors somewhat worshipped their swords so they were kept in as good as shape by the family as possible which also explains why so many swords are found in temples in Japan. To truly tell exactly when a Japanese sword blade was made without an engraving is extremely difficult even for experts since the design didn't change much for almost a thousand years & at different times throughout the country. If I owned very good examples of mideval European swords I would be tempted to give them a proper polish and sharpening but only if I didn't ever want to resale them since that would severely hurt their value to most modern European sword collectors. Which is the exact opposite of the Japanese sword market.
It's probably a bit of the same idea behind Kintsugi (repairing broken pottery with gold).
Do you know whats the steel of that reproduction Katana is made from?
Cool video! Could you talk a bit about these sword polishers? Their techniques would make a wonderful video. Those Japanese polishers sometimes use tiny squares of stone on the end of their fingers and it's quite something to see, indeed.
I find it easier to think of a sword who has been respected and past down through centuries maintaining the polish which allows it to cut as designed.. for swords not maintained loss may be drastic. Maintained polish doesnt require much removal..
Hi Matt, I have a question: were european swords when they were in use polished as much as japanese swords? I mean if they were polished so much as you could see the grain of the steel as in japanese "hada" or they weren't polished to that extend
Consider this. The finer you polish a piece of steel, the more resistant it gets to rusting and tarnishing.
Europeans knew this, so if they wanted to make a blade last well they would go for a mirror finish. If they wanted a cheaper sword however they probably wouldn't bother.
There would be a bit of a difference between a soldiers sidearm and a kings dress sword.
Swords in much of European history were available to citizens/free men, while swords in japan were often a high class item. So i have to imagine that would cut down on the amount of budget swords available in the records
Matt I found this video on RUclips a while ago about a European rapier made in japan back in the 17th century. It's all in Japanese so I don't really understand what it's about but because it seemed somewhat relevant I decided to share it here. ruclips.net/video/avpz7wdLZe4/видео.html
It is a European style sword, though Japanese made, polished to Japanese standards .
nice sweater!
I remember watching the antique roadshow here in the states years ago, and people would bring in nice shiny sabers from the Civil war or Revolutionary era, and they would always tell them the sword would have been worth 2 or 3 times more if they had not polished it. Are the old Japanese swords devalued buy polishing, or is it not an issue since there is such a culture of polishing the blades?
It's the opposite with Japanese swords, *IF* they are professionally polished by a certified polisher then they are usually worth more. If they are badly polished, then it is worse than just leaving them as they are.
As I understand it, in Japan the blades are seen as art objects. Families would treasure swords made by famous smiths as they were part of the family's fortune, kind of an investment. Owning a Muramasa blade is like owning a Vermeer. In this sense temples holding these blades are akin to art museums.
Polishing a sword is just like restoring a painting: most of the famous European paintings like Mona Lisa have been restored and retouched, sometimes many times and from pretty terrible conditions, and some probably would have looked pretty different when they were new. And that is seen as perfectly normal, not 'archaeological vandalism'...
Over polishing could be a problem for Japanese swords as well. Mainly because most of Japanese swords are made by different layers of steel. A sword would be considered less valuable if they got polished too much that some parts of the outer layer are completely gone (which ruins the steel pattern).
@M G - It is their culture and tradition not wanting to see rust and pitting on the blade body. Some big chips are left to preserve the body of the sword.
Gotta say, that's a really nice sweater.
I read of a buried "Viking" sword that was found with part of the scabbard still around the blade. That part of the blade was still shiny, and the edge was sharp enough to cut paper. Kinda says something about what those swords were like when new. 30" 2# double edged razor blade?
Good and competent video!
I will add that in Japan, donation swords are often not well cared for in the shrines. They are stacked in storage rooms and not looked after for many years. This has to do with the fact that monks are generally not familiar with sword care and maintenance, and their focus on life and work in the shrines is completely different.
Mostly, the donation act of the swordsmith or sword-owner is of importance, but the monetary or historical value of the sword itself is not regarded
*Relevant and Supportive comment, in context*
I completely respect both traditions described in this video.
I maintain my own (bought-new, or used but not antique) possessions, but also enjoy the fact that each mark I (or, better yet, my kids) make is part of the item's story.
What I loathe is "distressing" (creating fake history).
Can you post a link to the article you wrote?
all good points
"I have been Matt Easton, and will continue to be."
My ever sceptic nature made me wonder whether you put on wigs and call yourself Mattette on special nights out. Sorry about that.
I don't know if the term re-polished is correct. If a blade gets dull you don't re-sharpen it, you just sharpen it. As an outsider who knows nothing about it, it seems to me that in Japanese culture polishing is just part of the care regimen for a sword. Saying a sword has been re-polished is assuming that the first polish was meant the last for the life of the sword when in Japan it clearly isn't.
They say repolish because while the final steps are the same, the early parts of polishing a blade for the first time out of the forge and repolishing a blade that has tarnished can be very distinctive.
For instance, if a togoshi has blade fresh from the forge, they have a lot of creative freedom and artistic license in how the blade geometry will be, and a number of other blade features.
When repolishing a 14th century blade, you need to know how to interpret the correct way the blade should be shaped, so you can remove all the tarnish, or even pitting, possibly battle damage, but preserve the way the blade is meant to be expressed, while removing as little material as possible.
After those different foundational steps, the process becomes much more similar in the type of labor involved, even for very different styles of polish.
@@RockModeNick I'd argue that regardless of interpretation you will more accurately see the original product than a rust stick.
I run soft polishing tools since 2005.
We can only remove the oxide ans keep all the white metal.
We're used to quality from you, Matt, but I thought this was a brilliant video.
Just a curious person. Why is there a chip in the Japanese blade, used for this video presentation, around 3-4 inches from the top of the blade? :)
how time consuming and labour intensive is re polishing antique swords ?
Even more so than making it, by a solid margin
You can even polish a pig iron left in a ditch that bright if you wanted.
Al aesthetics & fav!
Thanks for diving into Japanese swords. Interesting topic for me of which I know very little.
Takling about preserved swords could you do a video on the sword of goujian?
alot of other bronze swords from china are just like sword of goujian alot of very well Surviving Chinese bronze swords are usually still sharp thing Special about goujians sword is he was a Emperor
@@micahcampa Strictly speaking he was a King or a Hegemon.
What i find striking about the sword was the beautiful pattern.
@@426mak yes other swords had the same pattern as well it was a popular design called turtle shell pattern
Just as the katana was constructed the way it was due to a lack of a high volume of quality steel, the polish of swords has changed a lot for the same reason. Some of the stones used to polish a 13th century Japanese sword simply don't exist any more. Many of the mines that produced the best stones have been extinct/mined-out for centuries. I have one very small piece of a beautiful renge suita that cost a few hundred bucks for a piece about 1.5" x 3" x 1/2" and a full bench stone would cost as much as my car. Japan is about the size of California with continuous habitation for at least fifteen hundred years or more. Most of the sand ores that are easy to get at are gone and most of the best water stones have already been quarried.
Ultimately, even for professional polishers, I believe synthetic stones will take over most of the work. Fortunately the technology seems to be keeping up, judging from the stone listings at Namikawa.
We have similar warer stone sources in the west. In horology, watch making and jewellery making, the finest water stones in the world come from the Water of Ayr in Ayrshire, Scotland. The mining if these stones ceased some years ago and there is a huge premium on securing a Water of Ayr stone. Such is not unique to Japan, it's just more known about because of the ridiculous 'mystique ' around the 'ancient ninja kung fu katana, shoalin monk Samuri bore everyone to death' culture that started to infest the west in the 1970s!
Most 'genuine' Water of Ayr' stones avaliable these days are not genuine at all but knock offs. The very best ones are in the hands of the top watchmakers and furniture restoration French polishers where they are used to produce the finish on highly polished wood.
There wasn't a lack of Quality Steel this is a myth and japan actually is bigger than a lot of European countries.
You may be interested in reading this.
"Iron and Steel Technology in Japanese Arms & Armors - Part 1: Iron Sources"
You mentioned the swords of El Cid, which are a weird and interesting case, because they're definitely not? They're like, almost certainly not. Tizona and Colada are handsome, but so obviously late 15th century productions, from their blade shape to what would be outrageously complex and out-of-era hilts if they actually would be contemporary with the 11th century El Cid, and I wonder what causes historians to just overlook that obvious nature for so long. Just like the William Wallace sword, or what is theoretically Joyeuse in the Louvre.
The fittings are from late xv and early xvi century. But the blades are earlier.
The blades are of an older style than the hilts, for sure. That seems to be common for swords attributed to early notables. It's impossible to know if the blades themselves are REALLY associated with the people they are associated with (probably not), but some DO seem to be of an earlier style. Most likely somebody had an old sword and simply CLAIMED it was El Cid's, or Charlemagne's. We do have some later swords with some clear associations, like Maximilien's stuff.
Many European sword blades have decorative engraving and etchings that polishing removes. Japanese culture and being an island allows their swords to remain much the same. Original polish on European sword blades also vary and some were never a mirror polish
before I clicked on this video I thought "neat, it was probably in a temple" hahaha
Will we ever find the Honjo Masamune?
Let’s keep our hopes high
Polish coronation sword - Szczerbiec looks pretty good: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szczerbiec
It's supposed to be from XII century. I was actually suprised that it is not some replica, or at least the thing with "grandfather's axe".
I'm not sure we heard the end of this discussion... I think some will try and find more to it...
I had no idea there was any controversy.
Personally I think I much prefer the Japanese methodology. In Japan they try to preserve how the creator wanted the object to be seen. In the west they just try to preserve the material. It's like preserving the spirit vs preserving the body. The spirit is forever, the body is always temporary.
I Also think a fairly big part of your first point is just the isolation of Japan. Despite the simplified teachings of high school history in the west, Europe was heavily influenced by both inside and outside cultures, especially in regards to technology used in warfare. Yes Japan really wasn't that isolated but unlike what most media shows Katanas were sidearms and once they developed they really didn't change all that much for a very long time. It is sort of the whole don't fix what isn't broken, if you are fighting mostly with spears and bows and your back up weapon works good enough why change it.
Difficult one, I have various vintage tools, and in order to render them usable again, a lot of material has had to go, but then they were made to be used that way, sharpened till they were of no more use and then discarded, like a kitchen knife or a butchers knife. Then I have blades which I am utterly afraid to use because they will lose the mirror polish.
what differs a temple from a shrine?
Generally, temples are Buddhist, shrines are Shinto.
Did the metallurgy change on the Japanese sword timeline?
My understanding is that now....and for a good while, the French Sword of State, Joyeuse....'Joyous'... the Sword of Charlemagne.... is considered older than the Sabre of Charlemagne.... or at least its blade is... kind of. The Blade has received a dating range, from different testing. As early as the 9th century.... though also shows newer metal welded in in places, from later centuries... up to the....... 13th? I think? Though the hilt and pommel date to the 10th century, and the cross guard the 11th, whilst its scabbard dates to the 13th.
The Sabre of Charlemagne, the Austrian Imperial Regalia Sword, dates to 10th century, as an outside furthest date, though in its own origin story, the legend had it that Otto III took the sword from Charlemagne's tomb in around 1000 AD, many scholars generally accept that this was actually when the sword was forged..... dating back that far, even today, whilst much much more accurate than decades past, can still yield ranges centuries apart. However, more of the sword is uniform in that 10th to 11th century date. That is to say, there is less evidence of constant repair and refurbishment, it is more original overall, than Joyeuse, though the latter seems to be older.
Tizona... the El Cid's sword, dates to about the 12th century, if I recall, so is not old enough to be El Cid's weapon, but still exceptionally old for sword in such fine condition, by European sword standards.
It seems than generally speaking, the culture, as much as the lack of variance of time, plays something of a role in lack of pristine European swords over 500 yrs old, too.
With some exceptions touched on, like Viking Swords in 'provincial' families in Scandinavia being passed down generations (keep in mind, in parts of rural Denmark, Norway, and in particular Sweden, in the early 19th century, they were still living almost like the 9th century. Indeed, in parts of Sweden's isolated north, they were still using the runic Futhark, rather than their modern alphabet, right up until the late 18th century) because they were almost lost time, still living like old, where tradition had been carried on for centuries......... well... generally speaking, Swords were TOOLS.
Viking culture did at times, lend symbolism, and mythology, and sacredness to swords, but far less of this happened in the rest of Europe, indeed, even in antiquity, swords in Europe were tools.
In Asia as a whole, and especially in Japan, however, swords had so much more meaning. Spiritual, and symbolic, and whilst some dynasties in Europe might have a House sword, passed down, put on display, in general, even in the most noblest of Houses, you would not entre the main chamber to see a sword at as the centre piece of the room.... it would be a hearth.... or perhaps a cross.... maybe a plinth or dais with VIP chairs. In Japan though, there would be a sword rack, with two, three, occasionally four swords, or set of, or even two set of, Katana, Wakizashi, and Tanto, in some central place in the main reception/living space, of just about every home which had the right... which basically meant Samurai class... though perhaps religious figure, or even a non Samurai soldier, who had earnt them by distinction in service. If you had the right to, you showed them. Myth built around them, they were passed down for centuries, and considered to have much greater meaning in life than in Europe.
Even in places like China, Korea, Thailand and Vietnam, we see this more than in Europe. Swords so old, and in such great condition, are not as common as in Japan, perhaps... but still much more so than in Europe, because they were viewed at times, or in part, the same way the Japanese held swords, to some degree. They held meaning... they could even hold the spirits of the ancestors.....so maintaining and keeping ahold of such weapons for many dynasties or clans was not even a question, it was just the done thing.
IN Europe, for the most part, only 'Special' swords were given such veneration and kept for so many centuries.
Joyeuse's paper trail, historically speaking, if I remember rightly, begins centuries after the weapon has been dated to, so we cannot say if it even was the myth of the swords origins which mean we have it today, or if that is a later fabrication.... but we DO know, that for centuries, between the 10th and 15th centuries, the sword was restored and refurbished, even in centuries before we have written reference to the weapon. That tells us that even if not the sword it is claimed to be, folk either thought it was, or knew it to be an weapon worthy of making an artifact on the basis of what it actually did and who it actually belonged to, even if not the Emperor.
The Sabre of Charlemagne, likewise, whilst not as heavily maintained as Joyeuse, did not need be, because even if a century or two too young to be what it is claimed to be, and even if, as Joyeuse, the written records post date the weapon by a long margin, someone, somewhere, knew it to be somehow important, so important they secluded it, and then generations ensured it remained cleaned, and dry and cared for, because even if we do not know for sure what is is or was, it had some greatly significant import, to them, as now it does us.
So in a cultures were any sword, just by being a sword, can become symbolic, and important dynastic artifact, in just existing for a few generations, like in Asia, of course you will see more examples, in far better condition, from those periods, survive, than in a culture like Europe, where most swords wound up horse shoes, or in a bog, unless they were of exceptional historical significance, like Tizona or Joyeuse. Especially in one were the sword remained the (at least symbolically) primary weapon for so long, and was so relatively unchanged over those centuries as to avoid being outdated as well.
PS: I think the level of polish between Japanese swords and erupean ones may be different, a low grit polish does corode faster then a high grint.