Who were the REAL NINJA? Shinobi History with Antony Cummins interview
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- Опубликовано: 1 авг 2024
- Antony Cummins and Matt Easton take a look at who the ninja (AKA shinobi) actually were. Did they exist, what historical sources do we have, and what do we know about them?
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Развлечения
That's a fine array of logs
Shad:"Big STICKS! Yes!"
Matt has a wall of swords.
Other guy has a wall of logs.
Thats what she said.
Yeah I always had a problem with things being strictly associated with ninja like “ninjato” “ninja outfits” and “shuriken” when the whole purpose of a shinobi was to blend in.
It would be like an undercover cop carrying around all the usual gear an officer would have and saying “how do you do fellow drug dealers?”
It's silly to have a uniform like that. Although, it seems that it actually happens - at least in the modern day. It reminds me of when you see some of those meme pictures of what are likely federal agents in groups pretending to be regular people to catch criminals. Every single one is a fit young man with identical hair cuts wearing collared, short-sleeve, monocolor shirts, cargo shorts, sneakers, sunglasses, and a wrist watch. If you asked a group of friends to pretend to be the same person, they wouldn't be anywhere near as successful.
@@Alex_Fahey i think they still are trying to keep each other identifiable you know to avoid blue on blue
at least thirty years ago you could look at a mans uniform and tell if he was regular army or special forces, even in unmarked uniforms.
there are tools of the trade, even if a socket set can be used by a mechanic, hvac technician, janitor, home owner, factory workers or anything else. the total package marks the trade.
to be fair though "ninja" would be somewhere between special forces and the CIA (for example). they need specialized equipment but mostly use whatever is needed for the task at hand. the individual tools might be in any box but the combination of them would only be found in their box.
The public image of shinobi is based on very, very few instances of Trojan horse-ish special actions. They did very, very few times climb walls of a fortress and open the gate. They also did very few times assassinate by breaking into a fortress at night (though look at the architecture of Japanese castles - the top level of the main building looks like built to prevent such assassinations).
The bread and butter activity was to blend in, travel, and spy. They apparently often disguised as some Buddhist beggar-monks who travelled freely and had their faces hidden with weird woven hats.
Equally if they are acting like scouts or special forces within an army they are going to look like most of other soldiers of their class. If they are Bushi they will look like Bushi.
The thing I've always found interesting is the perception modern people have of ninja being based on a representation from Japanese theater.
And I'm not just talking about theatrical DEPICTIONS of ninja.
I'm talking about a black-clad kuroko (stage hand) on stage holding up a vase, then stabbing a character to represent an assassin killing them.
We see a person (ninja) hiding and then killing. But what we are SUPPOSED to see is...nothing. The actions on stage were all part of the theater/audience agreement.
We are supposed to understand that "Something caused the character to die. No one knows how." Nothing was intended to be taken literally.
Probably another case of westerners looking at Japan and saying, "Man, Japan sure is weird." like in that Robot Chicken sketch
Interesting. Like someone thinking the rope which allows people to fly in old plays was meant to actually be a real device in the story of the play instead of an artistic conceit.
That's actually kind of funny.
That’s a very interesting point! I noticed that, but I’ve never thought about it. I wonder if it’s true!
@@1tsnotmemar1-o6 Yes, or watching a stop motion King Kong. The audience accepts the representation given to them.
Only that people back then didn't know they were looking at theatrical depictions of something that was very basically 'invented' in the 20th century for the entertainment industry and full of fakes and crap.
Just goes to show how much the industry influences people's minds and opinions without them often ever knowing.
One thing I really like about Antony is that he has gone directly to the sources and presented what looks to be a wholly historical view, something that is very contrary to the popular idea of the ninja which has ruffled a lot of feathers in the ninja fanboy communities. But it's actually a very HEMA like approach, It's unfortunate how much he has been unfairly criticised in certain circles but he has born it well and is a really great guy. Awesome to see this interview.
Absolutely agreed. A lot of his arguments have been completely straw manned, and people ignore the context in which he presents his information.
“I would strongly advise ignoring anything and everything that Cummins writes. He has absolutely no training or credentials related to Japanese history, and apparently doesn't even read, write or speak Japanese. I definitely don't recommend putting stock in ANY translation, unless you can be sure that the translator has the skills (the ability to read the language of the original text, the background knowledge of the society and culture that produced it needed to properly understand and interpret it -- ALL translation is interpretation -- the needed understanding of the historical context of the text, the ability to write clearly and accurately in the target language, etc.) to do the job. Nothing about Cummins' background suggests he has any of these skills, and the fact that he believes it is okay to delegate primary source research and translation to associates (even if they are qualified -- and why would anyone with the skills and training to do proper historical research and translation be content to do grunt work for someone else, rather than writing his or her own books?) demonstrates a shallow and amateurish understanding of what history and historical research are about".
- Dr. Karl Friday, Prof. Emeritus Dept. Japanese History, University of Georgia, Professor of Pre-modern Japanese History at Saitama University
"Actually a very HEMA-like approach"... I couldn't have said it better myself. How pathetic.
@@jachyra9 My favorite video on this topic was done by KnightSquire when he completely dismantled Antony’s knowledge, books, and overall approach to swordsmanship. Unfortunately said video might have killed his very promising HEMA channel.
@@jachyra9
Someone researching, say, Catalan medieval military history, will invariably stumble upon the Catalan company. However,some of the most famous exploits of that group happened in areas of modern Greece and Turkey, and someone focused on Catalan history will not necessarily be fluent in Turkish dialects of the time, so will need help by someone specializing in that field to assess records from local sources in the area. Whether that person becomes a co-author or merely an acknowledgement depends on the extent of their contributions towards the overall work. And why should they write their own book on the Catalan Company in the remants of the Sultanate of Rûm when they themselves aren't particularly interested in the Catalans?
The days of the polyhistor are long gone. The notion that you shouldn't delegate tasks to a specialist is absurd. Likewise the notion that research for hire was something outlandish. It's done every day, on request of sundry organizations worldwide, from governments to NGOs to companies. Including historical research.
@@ohauss - I guess you just missed the part where it was established that Cummins can't read, write or even speak Japanese. I could go further, but there's obviously little point. We're seeing a severe degeneration of acumen and veracity here. Throw in confirmation bias and an almost total disrespect for education and you're looking at the reason why Cummins sells so many of "his" books and has so many mindless zealots... I mean "followers".
I used to doodle about with a bit of Bunjinkan. One thing I appreciated from our instructors was that is was largely a journey of self discovery and development. There was an understanding of what we thought of as 'traditional' techniques which we attempted to emulate accurately, then there was a recontextualising of how the idea would work in the modern world with modern laws and spaces. Perhaps being much more Machiavellian in approach is actually responding to the original idea of the Shinobi
I used to practice Bujinkan about 10 years ago. This was really enlightening. Thanks guys.
The differences between war archery around the world was really interesting. *Seems* the practice and contexts across the world are more comparable than how say swords are constantly, fruitlessly compared
By the way, there are some modern Japanese archers who practice a more battlefield-oriented style of archery. I've seen some videos (search for Koshiya Kumiyumi) that seems more akin to historical reenactment, with battlefield formations. I don't know how historically accurate that is, but it's definitely closer to war archery than kyudo.
I'd not challenge Antony to a fight, he's a knight templar who is descended from Wolverine. What a beast. 😆
This is one of the most interesting conversations I've heard ! I'd really love to see a HEMA approach heavily developed for the Japanese historical martial arts ; but I fear that it won't come from Japanese, the Japanese mindset and the ire of the masters of the current traditional schools would prevent it, unfortunately.
It is being done already. Check out Honneur Aux Arme on RUclips 😁
There are a few small groups that are beginning to spar and pressure test their techniques
Plus the old masters are aging and it’s possible newer younger masters will be more accepting of sparring alongside kata/drills
If you want to learn historical Japanese martial arts you need to research the age of the school or form. The popular ones most are familiar with are barely 100 years old. Most have their origins around the Meiji period. If you want to study a Proven 400 year war art you need to find a true Kobudo school.
@@tatumergo3931 good points but hema sparring has already proved that as long as you don’t get carried away and add too many rules, it won’t become a game/sport like kendo
Thank you to Mr. Cummins for stating that the lines between Shinobi and Samurai blurred. That is a common misconception about the two.
Deep study makes great achievement, but besides that, as an Italian I absolutely love how Antony emphatizes his speech with his hands gestures, totally sharing his passion.
Thank you.
Very entertaining interview.
Tactics change and evolve over time. Newer methods can be more efficient or safer. But they are NOT original. You can't look at the training guide for 2020 and figure out how something was done in 1920. There's an old story about a modern motorized field artillery team having a person standing there doing nothing. Turns out that person's job was to keep the horse from running off when the canon was fired.
Obata Toshishiro Sensei told me a few stories about what ninjas were. One of the most memorable stories he told me about ninjas was how they infiltrate enemy armies. His family were samurai strategists going back to the 1500's. He was very clear that there were many types of "ninja."
Indeed. During the Sengoku period there wasn't a word to describe ninja, they were given different names depending on the task at hand. The term shinobi no mono was given to them in the Edo period.
@@signor_zuzzu the word Shinobi no mono existed way before the edo period.
@@eagle162 yes, but only in some areas. It consolidated as a word after the war.
Wow! This was unexpected! I can’t wait to watch this in full!
Glad to see Antony's work getting more attention I've been following him for year's
Matt - the greatest collaborator in the sword community!
Video like this are still important. There are a lot of people out there that only know the pop culture image of the ninja.
Anthony knows his stuff. That’s why I am a loyal follower. He leads the ship.
Please have Antony on again. I loved this interview and appreciate Antony’s work.
As someone who got started in Japanese martial arts b4 I got into HEMA I do really appreciate the work that Anthony has done. Well done.
I'm of two minds on Antony. I think he is correct on quite a bit of what he says as far as ninja are concerned. He gets hate brigaded by a lot of traditional martial arts people like the guy who made a website to call him a fraud. It does concern me that he does not speak Japanese and his translator does not hold a degree in classical Japanese. He is not even a fencer. But every time you look into the individuals that strongly critique his work they appear to fall apart as well. Like the guy with the Cummins is a fraud website honestly believes that no one should own a sharp blade. I wish we had a channel producing the level of content we get from Matt and Todd but that simply doesn't exist for Asian weaponry.
There's also legit hate for Cummins from iaido or koryu practitioners because he tried to revive a dead school, Natori ryu, without any martial arts experience. I personally don't see anything wrong with it if it's for research purpose but i can understand the reason from their POV
The metatron, the Shogunate, Japan at war are some good channels I'd recommend for asian weaponry. Please tell me others if people know more.
As always, reality is not black and white. Anthony is very likely not a scammer or fraud. The problem is his methods are not very thorough, he is lacking actual training in the subjects and of course he doesn't speak the language.
Therefore in many cases, he's unable to pick up on nuances, distinguish between reality and metaphor and in these cases he seems to go with what he feels is the best. Which is not scientific at all.
He's a ninja fanboy (in a good way) and knows a huge amount of stuff, that's undeniable. But he should work hard to filter this knowledge better.
you put to much faith in college degrees. if a person must be schooled in the dominant dogma of a subject you will only get dogmatic views, and we both know that people can learn anything out side of school.
Was going to throw my name out there but is seems like it’s been done!
Very nice to hear from an expert! I know very little about the subject and learnt a couple of things!
It's criminal how underrated this video is. I hope more people see this, because it's one of the best videos I've seen from this channel, and it always has very high quality. Has there been a follow up video yet? I scanned the video list but couldn't find one. Ten out of ten video.
Great interview. Matt does a great job digging into Antony's research.
I hoped Antony would say his favorite Musashi translation. I would think some of the newer ones would be closer to the original. I always liked the "chapter" on stabbing them in the face. Musashi was a true realist. A real killer turned introspective. There's wisdom there.
Great interview from someone I consider the best source for ninja information.
Busting myths, one shuriken at a time.
Great interview. Thanks for gifting us with it.
Wow this i wasnt expecting xD Cheers to Mr. Antony and cheers to you Matt !
Finally! Yes. Proud of you Antony. I’ve learned as much about Ninja from Antony as I learned about Swords from Matt. You guys are great.
So fascinating indeed! I really hope you'll do more collaborations, a long series!
I read that the traditional image of the black clad ninja came about from Japanese live theatre. They didn't have a curtain to bring down to change scenery, and instead had the convention that black clad stagehands would come on and quickly remove/change any props while the actors busied themselves on stage and continued with dialogue or just stood and waited.
So these black-clad stagehands were effectively invisible to the audience, as they would take no part in the action; a bit like how when you watch a film with subtitles, after a while your brain just takes them in without effort, you are no longer consciously aware of reading. If you have watched a subtitled film, in a language you don't understand, with real attention, you will often find afterwards that you don't remember reading dialogue during particularly emotionally involving scenes, you remember the actors speaking in English. Your brain edits out stuff that doesn't matter.
So - when some absolute genius in the Japanese theatre once had the notion of having one of these black clad figures step forward, strike an actor with a stage knife, and then step back into obscurity while the other actors exclaimed "someone has killed my lord! Who has done this? How is this possible?" the entire audience were like, "what the fuck just happened?" For the audience, it was like the scenery came alive and killed him.
Subsequently this was much imitated and became a bit of a cliche, but the first time must have been an absolute smash. And that is why they are traditionally thought of as dressed in black.
imagining a sub title jumping out and stabbing like markiplier or something
Masaki Hatsumi once said that if someone wanted to become a real ninja in today's world they should join the military and get into special forces. I figure he was right on that one.
These are the types of conversations the world needs now. NINJA releated. Guys, thank you for doing this!
So love you guys. I have a profound respect for both of your channels. Thanks 🙏
Always keen to learn about ninjers and their ninjitsu ^^
OMG. My two fave accents on the tube. I can’t give enough credit to both experts for how much you have taught me over the years. Awesome idea! Thanks so much Easton.
Reccomended manuals: “The book of Ninja” the Bansenshukai, Hatori Hanzos “Shinobi Hiden; The Secret Traditions of the Shinobi” , “true path of the ninja” (+Iga and Koka Ninja skills).
So, it's like Vikings going off to do a bit of viking?
Great interview and a great collaboration between two channels that I love
Its nice seeing Antony here! Keep up the great work.
Just want to say thank you both for doing this video and keep up the good work 👍🏻
Thank you for this fabulous talk. Very informative.
Been waiting a very long time for this!
Great stuff! Thanks for sharing!
I'm a Bujinkan member since 1989 - absolutely love Matt's approach on everything - sincere, professional, practical and I'm interested to see him bring his HEMA aesthetic to his budo studies with more sparring/fencing mixed with as he says grappling/jujutsu. Nothing he says on this or any of the HEMA stuff I've seen goes against how Bujinkan approaches things in my experience. We use padded swords, as well as bokken, iaito, etc for a reason, for example. As for Anthony.. I think his Bujinkan path was flawed and left him burnt, just from what i know of his own recollections and accounts of his behaviour in japan.. none of which gels with the people I think really do things correctly in the art. I do hope Matt gets better insight of Bujinkan history and training from somebody more authoritative. The really good folks ARE involved with military/police and do speak Japanese and study loads in Japan. They're who Matts needs to seek out imo but they're generally not out there on the social media.
"Nothing he says on this or any of the HEMA stuff I've seen goes against how Bujinkan approaches things"... in your experience.
Wonder if kacem zoughari&Antony will ever meet?he would probably tie Antony's hands to the chair to keep them from waiving around so much as he talks.
@@davecurtis6930 - Well, unlike Antony, Kacem is a real academic, meaning he barely has time to eat and sleep much less engage in silly arguments on social media like this.
@@jachyra9 Antony is butt hurt,he needs to get over it,hatsumi also shows the scrolls on RUclips,but probably won't watch it.
The bujinkan started out okay. It's fake now. And it was never ninjutsu. It's kenjutsu modded with Chinese Kung fu and then called ninjutsu to prevent issues of racism. Hatsumi knows this and refuses to admit to it.
YAYYYYY... I love these longer type videos
Fascinating video. Loved the discussion on ninjas.
Outstanding video great content
This was a great interview!
I came into this extremely skeptical of the ninja myth, and Matt seemed to as well, but this dude worked from the sources and made a good argument
Great interview! Good questions!
Well done 👏
Great topic. Can’t wait for more videos
Thank you for the quick summation.
What a great conversation.
Such a pleasure see you both, what a dream team
No.
What a great video!
For those actually willing to learn, there are a few "ninja"-related disciplines taught in Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu, such as infiltration, swimming, battle layout and so forth. TSKS is as respectable and traditional a school as one could wish for in Japanese martial arts.
It's not a few
It's ninjutsu and it's rarely ever taught these days. Only to the highest ranking students and only in Japan by certain teachers. Other ryuha also contain the same training. Not all but many of the larger more developed styles do.
@@bmxriderforlife1234 Are you a member of TSKSR?
@@caioabramo2443 not directly. I studied different ryuha but tsksr is connected to one of the styles I studied as well as my former sensei also practiced it as well as a few other ryuha and had for decades upon decades when I was learning under him.
So I understand alot about the ryuha and a bunch of its intricacies. Some schools teach a modified version more for dueling. Others teach the older version more aimed at armored fighting. The differences are very noticeable but not as huge as people would think. It often boils down to one of 2 things.
During Japanese history around the meiji era. There was a lot of instances of many ryuha having their only fully trained practintioners die off, particularly a number of soke before they had fully transmitted their ryuha. During the early 20th century many of the remaining ryuha masters all worked together to help revive and save certain ryuha which is why many are heavily modified.
The other. Is what I've already mentioned as far as shifts happening during the later periods that made it more focused on duels or on self improvement. Also relates to the difference between koryu and kobudo.
Currently I could be said to study multiple ryuha. Main emphasis on enmei Ryu and the other miyamoto Musashi transmissions along with kashima no tachi, among numerous others. Including some ryuha within the bujinkan albeit the ones that are true koryu. Albeit bujinkan ryuha mostly as a history lesson.
FYI. Kashima shin ryu and kashima Shinto Ryu are related schools but kashima Shinto Ryu contains tenshin shoden katori Shinto Ryu as an ancestor school as well. The kashima lineages have some interesting roots that might possibly go back before the typical starting point for most ryuha specifically for the sword arts hence the kashima no tachi. Also some other ryuha I study parts of their curriculum due to cross compatibility with others. For example any ryuha with jutte/jitte jutsu will work as a Supreme basis for Musashi's dual wielding techniques as his entire dual wielding style is actually based off his families jitte techniques. Along with needing some lines of jiu-jitsu and aikido for the sword techniques contained on them that were ripped from kenjutsu during certain periods. Sometimes they often still contain the best transmissions of these techniques.
My senseis family had a long history of samurai police shit. At some point the side of his family that didn't come from samurai stock was involved with the shinsengumi somehow. So his family was still playing with swords rather late and still passing knowledge down. He's a branch family of the blood line heads of the one kashima Ryu in the last but now the current head is elsewhere but the family still has their own lines. I forget the other ryuha he studied heavily but it's got weird rules about every head must change or add onto the ryuha to further perfect it every generation. This teaching has kinda stuck with his family. But many ryuha had heads with similar thoughts and things have been adapted over time. Armor bias to dueling. Or other minor tweaks. Some less minor.
With me he was teaching me mostly history stuff and then sword related arts. Staff and other shit I already have experience and some training in and they aren't my preferred weapons. Archery he left out due to me having experience with long bow archery. Naginata I am still beginner in.
Essentially I just wanted him to teach me to be the beat duelist possible. And it was the easiest and most available thing at the time. Now I also study hema and some other sword arts. But I'm also expanding more into the areas I used to not be as interested in.
Pole weapons have grown on me. Same with some other weapons. So gotta go back and learn some shit I skipped.
Also may start yagyu shinkage ryu as there's a very respected sensei at the local Japanese cultural center. Also already kinda prefer yagyu mounts due to my sensei. Gyaku or reverse menuki so they fill the palm. Though my sensei got mad cause I like huge O kissaki and apparently they aren't as safe or good as a chu kissaki.
Sensei specifically made me study sugino sensei movements though. There's really good footage albeit he's extremely old but it's rather old footage and a nice watch. So I have a decent understanding of katori Shinto Ryu including the upper level stuff. Other ryuha have their own or almost the same teachings. Some differences can arise in how expanded upon it is and if it's taught more this is how it's done and how to defend against it versus more specialized this is what you go do. Katori Shinto Ryu seems to be in the middle ground. But also dropped some deceptive measures in later times that most ryuha basically just stopped teaching properly even I'd they know it's a thing that was done.
I believe its takamura sensei who teaches the ryuha that deals with wearing a short nodachi on the waist and the iai to make it work. He mentions this in the other Ryu he teaches. He also still teaches certain evil ass throws that decapitate the enemy while you toss them and some other really evil shit.
Problem is alot of it is slowly dying out. And some of the ryuha won't join the koryu associations. Such is the case of the ryuha in the bujinkan. Plus a few others. Some join but won't share certain info among the sensei to keep it alive more easily. Some still do full on live blade sparring like you wanna kill each other. My sensei and I did a bit of live blade sparring. Nothing like what him and the other old dude did.
Antony Cummins brings up some valid points. But has a biased and agenda'd way of presenting things. And also needs to get some sensei involved with his research.
Some are gonna be racist. My former sensei left Japan over some of it. But some don't care, pretty sure takamura sensei and some others are very open with foreign students. Where as we know some are rather low key horrid towards them.
However I know sensei from Japan who would gladly assist Cummins if he stopped certain shit. Just saying. Lol
I never get to chat with that many people who are koryu nerds.
Great presentation, very interesting.
You've been on a roll, Matt!
Great video, Anthony Cummins is the best!
Someone has 2 wishes left
Only 1 - damn Djinn cheated me with this 2 for one special.
Thank you very much.
I also used to practice in the bujinkan, very informative discussion, gentlemen!
Thank you for this highly intelligent interview.
An excellent video, most illuminating.
European Lords had much the same special forces and there are many examples in history of the same irregular deeds. Manuals were perhaps not written because it was considered greatly dishonourable and banned by the Church, unless it suited them.
There's just a lot of stuff that probably wouldn't get written down too. Even now in a highly literate world with access to instructional videos and stuff the best and most common way to learn fighting is to get someone to teach you.
Like how many Good boxing manuals are there out there? And how many boxing coaches are there? And if you wanted to learn how to box what would you choose?
And that's not even information that militaries might want to keep in house. I'm not taking about classified information stuff, but just training and doctrines.
I'm a huge fan of the scholagladiatoria channel pretty much from the start. This here is one of the finest pieces of many other great ones.The collaborations with Toby Capwell and Tod from Tod's workshop are phantastic as well and a must-see.
If possible, please do a similar extensive video on FMA and Escrima, as they seem to be a somewhat perfect merger of European and Asian fighting styles. I'd really enjoy that. Thanks for all your great work.
Believe me it ain't, Anthony is a waste of time even real historians like Friday have said to stay away from his works.
So basically the ultimate modern ninja would be Batman
Nope, it would be Deathstroke.
My two favorites
I love Anthony. His an explosive source bof samurai information.
In all seriousness. Great video, really really interesting content. Shinobi seem to be much more utilitarian than the idea of the ninja.
Awesome video, can't wait to check out Andrew's book!
Interesting discussion.
Hi Matt, I was just watching your review of the windlass munich sword and was wondering if there's been any update on windlass changing the edge on their blades?
What an amazing video very indepth and interesting ninja culture and samurai will always be interesting
I'd love to see a full video about places that specialized in different techniques/weapons/roles like Antony talks about at 11:20
And that goes for all cultures. Here theres Japanese shinobi, but there were the famous Genoese crossbowmen, why did Genoa specialize in crossbows, what allowed them to specialize ("single unit" armies don't always do so well) , and why were they so good?
thank you for this inspiring video on Shinobi No Ono
What about starting an international hema style sparing competition that has all the same rules and safety equipment armored and un armored that can use different weapons all together with safe steel weapons. Imagine going to a competition and getting to fight European, Chinese, Japanese and any other ethnicity. Would be great fun.
Would it be HIMA then?
Problem is real combat general isn't fun its dangerous deadly and brutal. You get one shot and if you mess up or take too much risk or misjudge things you lose limbs and/or die painfully (either slowly or quickly).
It changes things significantly.
Its like thinking your an ok home boxer and taking a shot in a pro tournament on the off shot you'll get lucky. In hema games its worth a shot, but in comparison, in real life it just isn't a thing.
Oh shit, this is long even for Matt Easton standards!
Would be short for Drach though. I look forward to a cooperation.
If he's interviewing Anthony he is lowering his standards.
So in summary, the most real of the today ninjutsu is just techniques just how to flee or divert attention. Everything else is added later or made up. It would be otherwise weird to wear black uniforms for inflitrating, because it would appear darker than the surrounding....so it would be more logical to wear grey or brown clothes. The best cover was at that time monk, pilgrim or peddler for traveling, while servitor or tinker are more logical choice for local inflitration....someone who is needed, but easily overlooked and would have an explanation why he is there. But also to appear as a ronin would be logical, but risky choice.
I dont think that the ninjato existed in old japan.....but throwing weapons are easily concealable, but are less effective against armored opponents. So it would be realistic that they appear in that time period, but unlikely as a shinobi weapon. If we look into the time period of sengoku jidai period only a few daimyo were assassinated, but non by a shinobi only by their retainers. So it would be more pausible, that shinobi were used mainly for intelligence gathering.
There are indeed two main manners of infiltrating:
1) Openly, through the social sphere, pretending you're someone you're not and not seeming out of place (acting/disguise, charisma/self-effacing).
2) Covertly, doing a bunch of clandestine and possibly illegal stuff at night.
In the case of a shinobi no mono, both ways were means of gathering/relaying intel and sabotaging the enemy in the service of their lord, although they would soon be relegated to mere sentries and criminal catchers later during the Edo period...
Examples of straight (or straighter) bladed swords tend to be second-hand polearms or swords that have been reshaped and rehilted, they are mostly associated with the Ashigaru foot soldiers. As for shuriken-type throwing implements, they appear in some fencing manuals; an actual shinobi no mono would probably just use a rock or some remote object (doesn't need to be firecrackers although this would obviously draw attention) attached to a rope for misdirection if he had to escape.
@@xSpiegelschattenx The last big scale production in Japan of straight sword was around the 10th century with the single edged chokuto which faded out quickly, before that there was the tsurugi. After that there was the tachi, then uchigatana and the katana. The naginata blades are unsuitable for rehilting into a sword, because the tang is quite long but also thin. So shorten the tang would make it more likely that the blade will fail. The blade of the naginata was also more curved at the tip in later time periods. Using a yari faced the same problem and additional most yari blades are quite short, especially in the later periods, where the yaris are more pikelikes. So it would be even more difficult to rehilt them. The longer bladed yaris tend to be more in the hand of samurais rather than ashigarus. Most ashigarus have standard equipment, which depended on their unit type (tanegashima, yaris or less often naginata) but nearly every ashigaru was equiped with a wakizashi. It would be more reasonable to use a wakizashi or tanto, especially from the background that samurais are allowed to carry 2 swords later on, while the rest of populace are only allowed to carry one blade. The problem with the ninjato that there are no sources for it in the time period where the shinobi were active, it only appeared in kabuki theaters in the 19th century, where also the term ninja originated, as a contrast to the more "honorful" katana of the samurai.
@@klausernstthalheim9642
The chokuto was based on chinese swords akin to heng dao.
Later straight-ish blades were associated with ashigaru, not the ninja (athough a ninja might be ashigaru).
A nagamaki could be rehilted as a katana or wakizashi, a naginata as a wakizashi or tanto; point being, they were not originally produced straight and might not even have been completely straight after the alteration, just straight-er.
Seeing as ashigaru tended not to be massively wealthy, and polearms and (inscreasingly) tanegashima were the main battlefield weapons, it might have made more sense (and be cheaper) to reshape old blades into more convenient sidearms instead of buying a new and expensive blade.
My understanding is that the black "Ninja" costume was inspired by outfits worn by stagehands (Kuroko) in Kabuki stage performances. Their black clothes informed the audience that they should be ignored, allowing them to conduct their duties without interrupting the performance. So if a play involved an "invisible" Ninja attacking another character, they could come on stage dressed as a Kuroko. As this caught on it led to the association of Ninjas with the black costume.
@@VierasMarius Yes, the black costume was used in theater and fantasy litterature, then later in comics, along with many, often made-up additions. The modern (and romanticized) fantasy image of the ninja first became popular in Japan, then made its way to the West.
On a side note, thieves existed in Japan, and some of their skills and activities could resemble those of a shinobi no mono, thus the terms for a generic infiltrator and a member of a specialized branch of the military could be confused with one another, especially as time went on and people became more and more detached from the past ways of living.
The ninja manuals love to emphasize how the shinobi no mono is different from a thief, however, the same manuals also state that, in circumstances where it would be beneficial for the lord, thieves could be hired to perform specific tasks.
actually it sounds like special forces or sas. They have a lot of spying/intelligence in their mission. Only maybe a little more sneaky. Maybe. Thanks for this. This actually makes sense.
Great to see my fave guys on the same show !!!
Excellent!
Fascinating ❤
35:00
Ninja in a military surplus store buying the anarchist cookbook with cash: 👀🤫
I highly recommend the channel The Shogunate as he also covers this topic pretty thoroughly as well.
But in my personal opinion, the best way to understand things like Shinobi, is take away all the mysticism, and apply some basic military logic, and you'll end up with a fairly realistic understanding of what they actually were.
One thing I've observed in reading and watching subjects of Japanese history, is when sources are taken from the Edo period, they are largely romanticized/embellished by a people who were losing their warlike ways and seeking some kind of greater depth to past glories. Often romanticizing tales and also appealing them for curious foreigners.
Honestly the channel Shogun is like Wikipedia level friendly it's okay, Anthony however just stay away from him works.
Gotta love the Manchester accent ;) Very interesting video. Just now started investigating a little into the Shinobi practices and such, weapons and it's very interesting.
Thank you.
I found this very intresting. An intresting parralell is that the buahpukul or malay dirty boxing i also study in adition to HEMA, has a way of dealing with the topic you speak of. Basicly they have a core curriculum whoch is what makes a school buah pukul. Then after completing the core curriculum youre supposed to have 7 lessons from the generation above your teacher and when this is completed you should form your own school where you define your version of these lessons, shaped by your personality and your personal experiences. Otherwise they say, you will only be a less good copy of your teacher. You eventually need opinions of your own.
This was great, and almost long overdue needing to have happened. Great to have the questions coming from another historian without a 'vested interest' as mentioned. Hopefully this calms some unnecessarily flaring egos.
This video honestly should not have happened.
There is no such thing as pure objectivity. Please show us a real historian, not a failed Mancunian academic with ADD, who has dedicated their lives to studying a subject that they have no vested interest in for the sake of remaining completely unbiased.
Matt doing some real 'assertion probing' here. Thanks.
Another thing, I am learning from two teachers from Wudang mountains who have learned from the same master at the same time and the way they teach are quite different. I don't see one as wrong or right. I take the different inputs (and others) and make it my own - I think like the masters mentioned in the video did in their times.
I have a few of mr. cummins books, which I appreciate and greatly enjoyed. I am also glad to learn that he has some experience with Bujinkan. Most of my knowledge came from Soke hatsumi's books and those from Stephen K. Hayes in the '80s. Mr. Cummins added a depth to that knowledge and level of detail I enjoyed. That stated much of what he states here was and has been already established by Soke Hatsumi and some of his Shihan. The Iga Province was a mountainous region that attracted both Chinese Ex-Patriots as well as Samurai from defeated clans who did not want to carry out Sepuku. They lived along side Lunberjacks, Farmers, Yama-Bushi mountain Ascetics, Sohei War Monks and so on. Because these were mountains the Samurai clans tended to stay out of the region and this created safe haven for several different kinds of people who might have been at odds with Samurai rule or culture.
The people in these regions practiced a form of democracy, holding equivalents to town hall meetings and deciding matters by a kind of verbal vote. They did not necessarily have formal building Dojos but a Ryu or School could have simply been what was taught in side of a family or village and they often shared skills amongst each other. Eventually, Samurai under Oda Nobunaga were sent into the region to make war on these people and they were forced to use and develop guerrilla tactics against them and share in the common defense by sharing skills. Essentially a Ninja is a product of modern Kabuki Theater but a Shinobi no Mono or Iga no Mono could be someone of vary diverse skills and traits. Anyone performing the role so designated was a Shinobi generally speaking. Thus a cook with excellent skills might be tapped to report to a rival Lord on the activities of a Castle or to slowly poison some Daimyo and then viola that cook is a Shinobi. However this did in fact become intentionally refined and specialized as mercenary work and espionage became a lucrative export of the Iga Province. Koga was a smaller area inside of Iga and the two were sometimes thought to be competitors but not necessarily rivals as they were both part of the counter-culture opposed to the Ethos of Samurai rule.
It is true that many of the historical Shinobi were actually Samurai and in fact popular examples of "Ninja" weapons are in fact Samurai weapons taught in a variety of schools. Basically if you had a skill that was useful and you were a samurai you could get tapped to do espionage work...and you probably didn't like it but you did your duty. Thus many Ninja were Samurai both because this was more a role adopted according to one's orders and because many Shinobi living in Iga were in fact Ronin from defeated clans and were in hiding.
All of this means there is not really a cookie cutter template for what a Ninja really was. It could have been wildly varied and include people with lifelong military training and common everyday people with only one or two skills doing a job give to them. Also, the only major difference between a Ninja and a Thief in their culture is that a Ninja or Shinobi served a Lord and a Thief served himself. they might have used the same skills so this is not unlike modern Spies today. many Asians I have spoken with both Japanese and Korean refer to anyone breaking in or stealing things as thieves as Ninja or Shinobi and thus the term was not a honorable one to bear. For that reason many people might have simply kept their activities a secret.
During the Warring States period the Shinobi were often professional military espionage agents about the business of espionage and their existence would certainly have been regarded as a military secret. That's classified so little documentation from that period could be expected. Mr. cummins has really done an excellent job researching the matter and I have enjoyed his work. I still enjoy details of Japanese culture and martial arts and in some ways consider myself a sort of Shinobi no Mono at least in spirit and more than that is not worth commenting. Yet, from my participation in some LARP and battle reenactment clubs here in Texas I gotta point out that very little is covered or popularized about our own traditions in the West of which we have such a rich history I am glad that someone out there is making an effort to bring this to light and document some of that. Unless I'm mistaken there are few surviving Fight Manuals from the Western traditions and people don't know just how effective they really are to get the job done. I think Japanese arts are fascinating and one of my first loves but the day I had to face a guy with sword and shield or sword and spear with only a two handed padded katana I learned quickly I didn't know how to deal with it. When I took up things like sword and shield or shield and flail I could just run over the Eastern fighters with little effort. Match weapon lengths and weights and I would want a Katana any day or other Japanese weapons but that topic is so well represented in film and games and such even if badly at times but our own Western traditions are hardly realized. We in the West got the job done too pretty well actually but the ingenuity of the various Shinobi of Japan have always fascinated me and will always be part of my thinking. Great job to both of you Gentlemen and thank you for sharing your work. :-)
My question is: if "ninja" were mainly samurai, where did the ideas of them being mainly farmers, or trained from birth in clans, come from?
Probably from the fact that after the war the request for shinobi decreased with time, so those samurai trained in ninjutsu were jobless and had to farm the land to survive.
A Japanese recent published book mention that most likely did come from a samurai background not saying that they weren't any but majority were not, here's a video by the person.
ruclips.net/video/6sflX-Y1PSw/видео.html
Unfortunately the video and the book are only in Japanese.
By the way don't listen to Anthony's he's a fraud and historians like Friday have said to stay away from his books.
Looking forward to a followup discussion.
this makes me want to learn the ways of the shinobi even more than I already do.
@@tatumergo3931 I don't do rules very well; the military is out of the question. why not all three? if there is one thing I should be doing, it's being adaptable. that's what the mudras are for; a meditation you can use on the field, very quickly, to alter your state of mind.
@@tatumergo3931 that's exactly the reason why you discipline your mind and practice your qi manipulation.
I love this show!
The reason why subjects such as shinobi/ninja or anything to do with warfare are rarely written during the period of conflict is 1) they were too busy 2)It is assumed that their contemporaries understood or knew it because they were busy practicing it. 3) (most important) books/scrolls were not meant for public consumption. The attitudes of the ancients regarding books are different from modern people's. The ancient people believe that knowledge is power and you must be selective in who you give knowledge/power to. The Japanese were no different in this attitude. In fact, it would had disturbed Miyamoto Musashi to no end if he knew that commoners and even barbarians were reading his book, Gorin no Sho (Book of Five Rings), and in reality there were only 4 (perhaps 5) original editions compiled by his heir, Terao Magonojō, from Musashi's manuscript. Each of those copies were in turn given to Musashi's 4 most senior students; the 5th copy is assumed to exist because Terao Majonojo most likely made a copy for himself. So the Book of Five Rings were never meant to be read by anyone and everyone. And this too extents to the knowledge and techniques of the shinobi/ninja. It is only after peace (relatively speaking) became a reality that matters of warfare and martial arts were recorded on paper because of the fear that the knowledge could be lost in time of peace. But even then, those books were still meant only for a select chosen few.
Most people i know of that practice "ninjutsu" (or however you spell it) were just grown men with mental problems. It seems to be a magnet for such people, you know, the secret agent, CIA type with special powers still living with their parents. Nice to hear someone did actual research on this subject :) Thank you Antony and Matt
Preeeety much bang on with this.