NIMBYs: The Biggest Barrier to Transit Expansion
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- Опубликовано: 8 фев 2022
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What's your experience with NIMBYs & transit?
Im my city of 250.000 people denied building a mordern airport closer to the city. A small town did not want it so now we are stuck with a 40 minute drive to an old airport build in 1942. They have at least renovated the airport now.
Not specifically transit but the transformation from fossil power generation to renewable energy has led to the following sentence: Here in Germany we want renewable energy but we should build the Wind Mills and Solar Panels in Spain and then transport the energy over.
This is not just "not in my backyard" it is "not in my country". Just plain stupid. Also, there´s a plan to increase Cargo and Passenger Train lines in the middle of Germany and since this was thought to be made it has been delayed by countless attempts of nearby and not so nearby residents with absolutely stupid arguments. Then they had to bring up a new plan that was as economically viable as the original plan and they have failed it multiple times. This has been going on for years now.
A regional rail line just 2.5 kms long has been delayed for a whopping 17 YEARS because of apparently 25 landowners. The track runs completely elevated on top of a highway for most of it's length, but it's the part where it veers off the highway for a mere 450 meters before the Terminus that's causing issues. City in question is Chennai, India.
Here in Santiago, there are 2 sectors when the train has to slow considerably his speed because Nimby's are arguing about the vibrations and noise that the train do when it pases under and next to their homes, those sectors are at Line 6 and Line 5, at Line 6 is between Ñuñoa and Los Leones because of the vibrations that the train do, at Line 5 is in between Laguna Sur to Monte Tabor because of the noise that pneumatic wheels do when the train are passing by those sectors.
NIMBYs are extremely rare in Singapore, thus with the rapid development of the MRT and even rationalisation of bus services.
Maybe you can try making a video about the rationalisation of bus services.
I'm loving the full on attack on NIMBYs from creators.
Someone’s gotta do it!
It's about time.
Yeah they don't really know what they're talking about I get a sense their uneducated
Hahah same!
The despising of Nimbys needs to go mainstream.
When I worked as a traffic control person, I remember NIMBYs would always drive by in luxury SUV's to pester me on a daily basis. The worst communities by far for this were always on Vancouver's North Shore. They would actively disobey flaggers out of the frustration of being slightly inconvenienced. Somehow "I'm just doing my job, there's a steamroller on Marine Drive" wasn't good enough for these people. They were generally hostile, toxic, awful people who looked down at us workers as lower class trash. It didn't matter that we were the ones installing and maintaining the roads, utilities, and infrastructure that carried services to their upper-class palaces, prevented floods and landslides, and allowed them to drive their six figure tanks at 120km an hour. We were not human to them, we were a obstacle to them, and that is the way they treat anything that gets in their way. As a flagger, I'd know firsthand that these people are a toxic cancer, and they need to be shut down at all costs.
People are spoiled by wealth...
After the Millennium extension down Broadway, the Expo line is extended to Langley and a gondola to SFU is built, the logical next step is some sort of rail connection to the north shore. But considering that the north rapid bus route was cut short at park royal (was supposed to all the way to dundrave but NIMBYs), how in the hell is that gonna happen? In fact, what will the rich folks on the West Side say about skytrain running through point grey on its eventual construction to UBC?
@@gavinlee7554 You need politicians willing to expropriate.
It boils my blood when I see people in cars getting angry at road workers. Road workers are literally essential to you being able to drive your car, show some respect.
We should just leave them alone. Really. I'm tired that society has to keep paying for those selfish pricks. You wanna be a selfish prick ? Please do. But don't come and cry when your house is worth nothing because you didn't want to pay taxes to maintain the roads, if you lost everything in a landslide or if you need medical care.
Even worse, NIMBYs are preventing density, the most important factor whether public transit is feasible.
It is very problematic, but can be overcome with good service to an extent
This is why the republican party of Virginia Beach opposed our ''Cheap light rail project'' It's not that they oppose light rail. It's the fear that if Virginia Brach densifies by A drastically change its zoning requirements or B large scale TOD. To the eyes of the Virginia Republican Party, it's basically game over for the gubratorioals in the state of Virginia in the governor's race since it functions as a swing springboard for winning the governors mansion. Unlike Maryland The Virginia RP is hand strung, they cant for more centre-right as they lose out on the western half if they go in the name of a certain someone they lose the exurbs and the and southern Hampton roads (Excluding Norfolk and Portsmouth Proper). Given that neither party in our two-party comedy show what's to branch out of their safe Neiclen advertiser bubbles we have to deal with the consequences of political stubbornness of a stagnant ideology.
@@erikgustafson9319 and that light rail line in Norfolk follows an abandoned rail corridor that continues into VA beach, so it’s not like the ROW isn’t already in place
@@tonywalters7298Thant was not the point the point is that because of fear of Virginia republican irrelvence they will do anything to protect their springboard
I think Transit matters more than housing. Look at California for example. There is ample land and affordable housing in smaller towns that are away from huge cities but no one lives there because it'll take hours of traffic to get to their work. So they live near the city for this reason. If there was better transit such as High speed rail in California as well as Arizona and Nevada, a lot of these problems would be solved. Actually, it might not exist in the first place. People would be able to live far away while knowing they'll make it on time for work.
And I think Nimbys have valid reasons to be against housing, granted I disagree with them. More traffic in the community as well as people living in a premium neighborhood that you paid top dollar for, for far less which may drive down prices. After all, housing is an investment that people want to see a return on. Then, crime might increase since some of these folks may be shady. I'm just saying. You can disagree while being empathetic.
A good transit system solves these problems. America should've built a rail network a long time ago.
I think that in the US, the successful opposition to some damaging and stupid highway and "urban renewal" projects in the late 20th century gave a lot of people the idea that NIMBYism is fundamentally progressive. The problem is that the needs of people who would benefit from transit (or from housing, etc.) never seem to get quite the weight that opposition does.
I think you’ve absolutely hit the nail on the head Matt, people are afraid because of the difficult history with infrastructure but the pendulum has swung too far
Agreed - Jane Jacobs should have been sent to jail!
Class?
@@toyotaprius79 yeah
@@toyotaprius79 ...Race too, of course. The other side of the coin is that there are a lot of people who never even pretended to be progressive, whose opposition to transit is about an imagined flow of "riff-raff" into their neighborhood. And that's classist but it's usually racist too.
City Beautiful did an episode on NIMBYs this week, too. His was more about high density housing instead of transit, but both videos work well together.
Love the channel, density in housing is so key.
Im honestly really glad seeing both channels address this, as someone who lives in the bay area, this is one of the biggest issues it in my area related to it
Ah. Dave Chappelle was just whining today at a townhall about not building affordable housing in his town. He went full NYMBY. Good timing. Lol
Ha ha. I initially thought it was a deliberate idea to release them together. Obviously not 😂
@@ABCantonesenimby detected
ironically, once its built the NIMBYs are the first to say what a wonderful idea it is, and are the people you can guarantee will use it the most
💯/ 💯 correct
@@wta1518 That's also because of the general historical trend of suburban sprawl vs public transit development. The middle class is sold on the idea of single family housing and car addiction and spreads far, making it more difficult and costly to create efficient transit infrastructure, and reducing the number of people taking transit. Those who can't afford cars of course tend to depend on transit no matter how bad it is.
As a result, transit gets a reputation for being a lower class option, infrastructure budgets are stretched too thin to improve service and create a competitive alternative to cars, ridership suffers and those primarily affected are lower class so the people that have more influence (typically middle and higher class) don't see a reason to support it and often see transit as a negative for inconveniencing them, and we have a self-perpetuating cycle where transit is eternally garbage.
Improving things to the point where the nimbys would actually WANT to use transit over car dependency is the tipping point and exactly the goal, which of course clears the stigma surrounding it.
Who are these nimbys you speak of? I live in a very nimby dense area...and no one says that. Nimby's by default do not want these transit systems no matter the benefit because it invites a ton of crime into the neighborhood. There's a reason people rather go the extra mile and drive out of the way to get to cities for their shopping, they don't want to be near it. The benefits dont justify the cost , even san francisco refuses to expand the fwy exit from 101 to the golden gate ...despite it being able to cut rush hour by 2 hours!
the point on avoiding tunnels is really interesting to me being from london. our mega project, the elizabeth line, goes through a point at Tottenham Court Road station where it is just 85cm above the Northern Line and only 35cm below the escalators. only a couple feet in both sides. really goes to show that when you hire tunnelling experts to do their literal friggin job and build your tunnels, they can get away with a lot, or in this case a little, even with massive 7m diameter tunnels in a city where the ground is frequently compared to Swiss cheese
I definitely agree. There are places in Tokyo and Singapore where tunnels pass within 10cm on top of each other, which it makes it all the more unreasonable to build 50m tunnels to avoid other things.
I'm surprised Reece wasn't aware of this since there's a multi part documentary on You Tube about the Elizabeth Line construction, and this tight fitting tunnel was mentioned in several episodes.
And then there's Spain, who built a high speed tunnel right next to the foundations of one of the icons of Barcelona, Sagrada Familia. Even though they installed more support for the foundations of a church that is going to become the tallest in the world once completed, criticism was inevitable. Also, given the model of HS operations barcelona has chosen for operation once La Sagrera is completed, every single high speed train that either terminates or goes through will pass through that tunnel, which is more than likely be 1 every 10 min.
Yep, I’m familiar with that case! I didn’t bring it up because it’s pretty extreme and indeed might actually be something to avoid unless ABSOLUTELY necessary!
S21 ist below the Stadtbahn tracks on one side and above the S-Bahn on the other, and it is a Station and not just a tunnel.
In Portugal, as far as I know, we don't have ninbysm regarding transit, people are actually always asking for more transit in their area, but we sure do have nimbies when it comes about cycle lanes, oh boy! 😬
When I first visited Seattle, the cut-and-cover tunnel under 3rd Ave was under construction. And yes, you knew it. But it was actually possible to drive not only across but along 3rd in most areas! They roofed it over with a temporary structure as they were working underneath. It was not the end of the world. And Vancouver survived Cambie St. being dug up for a cut-and-cover tunnel, too.
Exactly, we make these projects seem much worse in retrospect than they really are . . . At great cost!
And unfortunately, people screamed bloody murder against the Canada Line being cut n' cover... requiring businesses to be compensated. Meantime... property values skyrocketed and most of those businesses cashed in afterward.
In India, most people are supportive of the effects of a large infrastructure project. People are generally very supportive towards such projects and will happily relocate if the Government provides them with land in a reasonably close area.
Umm arrey forest
@@immortalwarrior2695 Oh yeah, great example. People don't realise the line will offset more Carbon emissions than what is destroyed from the forest.
@@rikipondi so this is not India specific problem and this is good. Some people in general are stupid
@@immortalwarrior2695 its all anti national funded trash..once bjp lost power, a church was built cutting arrey for which 0 ppl had problem...
Not in Tamil Nadu it's hard to do land acquisition
The best way to overcome NIMBYs is to show up at local and regional policy-making hearing and *VOTE!*
It depends on how your region is governed, in some areas totally!
@@RMTransit City Beautiful mentioned this in his latest vid. 😉
True... But you also have to become a NiMBY yourself in order to piss off the dedicated NiMBYs out of a discussion
The problem is that Nimbys are overwhelmingly retired, and younger people have jobs to go to.
Age limit these meeting. Young people are the future. Old people are gonna be dead soon
It's the same in Germany... Stuttgart 21, Alpha E, Fehmarn Belt tunnel, connection to the Gotthard tunnel....
NIMBYs are extremely frustrating.
I think the issue is that the alternatives are not well presented, all these projects help to expand sustainable transport which should be the goal
While I agree with most of your points I'd replace Stuttgart 21 with the extension of the Rheintalbahn. Because a) Stuttgart 21 is very poorly planned and executed ("Die Anstalt" did a whole episode on this) and b) the Rheintalbahn expansions has been suffering from delays due zo nimbyism since the 80s and is therefore not expected to be completed before 2038.
Don't forget the pinnacle of German nimbyism - closure of nuclear power plants.
I don't think all of those projects fit. Rheintalbahn is a great example - that's absolutely about "I want more cargo and better passenger connections but do them elsewhere, somehow".
Stuttgart 21 was never about "not here please", as the train station is already there. If anything, it's the opposite, what with it being put "away" underground.
Alpha-E has components of it but is also an example of what they try to do to work things out these days. It didn't go too well in that example but it also should be considered as an idea to further develop to avoid NIMBYs (one thing to say they are bad, an entirely different thing to find something else).
Fehmarn Belt again somewhat, but it's not so much about "not here, elsewhere please". A mix of ecological and economic (poor ferries ...) reasons.
Nuclear power also doesn't fit - people just don't want it, period. However, Bavaria's attitude towards wind energy fits well - "green energy please, but produce it elsewhere, somehow".
It's easy to dismiss all protests or throw them all into a bin of "stupid people blocking progress!" but if you want to solve the issue you have to engage with the problem first to figure out what's going on.
I'd also add that people would be less skeptical if DB and the Bund didn't so often produce massive piles of rubbish; there's low trust to their projects by default. That's not coming from nowhere.
@@Sp4mMe I think that especially for nuclear power it's also a very emotional thing for the older generation. I noticed this somewhat recently when talking to my parents. I'm not even against turning of the nuclear plants just against doing it right now. However talking to them there was absolutely no getting through because the struggle against nuclear was basically their big protest movement.
You didn’t touch on the major (if often unspoken) NIMBY complaint against transit in the US, which has nothing to do with noise or construction... it's that transit would bring the “urban population” into their suburbs. That fear has killed many projects here - to name just one, the Boston Red Line's planned extension northward from its current terminus at Alewife.
So true race has always been the #1 complaint against public transit here in the US.
@@jersonmoran8472 it's a valid complaint
@@jersonmoran8472 when looking at the stats it's a valid concern
problem is suburbs are located WITHIN cities. technically they are also urbanites.
@@wta1518 yet most are serviced by transit agencies, i.e. SEPTA and BART
Here in Adelaide, Australia, the city council has been debating for years about building an east west protected bike path through the centre of the city. In the end, it was abandoned, because of objections from the Greek Orthodox church which it was proposed to run in front of. Their issue was that the bike path would reduce the number of parking spaces available for their congregation. So for the sake of a handful of parking spots, used for two hours per week at a relatively quiet time, the city threw away millions in state funding and a key part of its cycling network.
People can bike to church
@@TheAmericanCatholic Exactly. It would have improved access.
"God loves cars, not people" sounds like great anti-religion slogan
Just build it everywhere except for there and put signs near the church that say "church is responsible for this". Leave free eggs to throw and make them pay for it later. As a slavic person, I must admit the Orthodox church is the pure evil.
The property value thing is insane. I live in Milan, and the construction of the M4 line is making the value of buildings nearby new stations rise well above previous values. In fact, this has happened with all the other metro lines
And Milan already has high building value
Which is a somewhat mixed blessing. While owners of buildings and land may enjoy the raised value, renters often rightfully fear the rising rents resulting from it.
I don't want the value of my home to go up in lieu of higher crime. Keep your money, i dont want it. When i die i can donate my house to a lucky underprivileged family, that will be how i give back.
I would love to have light rail within walking distance of where I live.
Transit access is awesome!
Ok...let's put it in your backyard
As a former Bay Area resident I am extremely disappointed in how the NIMBY’s basically won in San Jose. In San Jose they definitely should have built a double bore with cut and cover stations instead of a single bore large enough to accommodate station platforms and 2 tracks. The extension has 4 stations. 28th Street is literally going to be on an abandoned and unbuilt lot as a Transit Oriented Development. The downtown station is the only station where NIMBY’s even have a chance where the argument of surface disruption can be made. San Jose Diridon which is probably soon going to become the third largest public transportation hub in the state has its future BART platforms under what is currently a surface parking lot. Zero surface disruption. And the last one is next to a Caltrain station on the site of a closed SP rail yard which is currently a dirt field. So out of the 4 stations only 1 will cause surface disruption.
Worse, 94% of San Jose is zoned for R-1 single family. No wonder why BART has low ridership there compared to other areas.
Another good example is the "Y-Trasse" here in Germany. In the plans, the route runs from Hanover alongside the highway and splitted in the middle (like a Y) in one route to Hamburg and one to Bremen. But NIMBYs making campaigns against the project. The created websites with messages like "The Horror of train noise" or similar. They warns about the destroying of the landscape. Year... The beautiful landscape of a German highway....
But the project is very important for the whole country. The old track runs through middle sized towns (30.000-75.000 people per town) and the cargo traffic from the harbors runs on the same two tracks with the "High Speed" trains and the regional services. No capacities for more trains, no capacity for delays. It's the most important route for travelling to Hamburg.
The result of the protests was a awful compromise: No new route, but therefore a useless expansions of the old route to three tracks. The study from the German Train Service Company (Deutsche Bahn) calculated the result of this solution and got the result, that NOT ONE trains more can get on the old route with a third track. But some houses must be destroyed and it costs billions of Euro. No one get a better transit but the NIMBYs are happy about to avoid a new train route along a noisy highway. I hate NIMBYs...
Miami is the saddest example I know of NIMBY's sabotaging a rapid-transit system. When Metrorail was being planned and built in the 1980's, NIMBY opposition forced the route into neighborhoods where nobody really wanted to go., and not where it was needed the most. As a result, it's fairly useless to most people, while I-95 and other highways are pushed further and further beyond capacity.
Glad that SANDAG, the Metrolinx of San Diego, stuck to their guns and fully grade separated the Mid Coast Trolley using only viaducts, even through upscale University City.
I was just thinking that too: if they managed to make a line there, they can build anywhere! Now it's just a matter of getting more funding, faster construction, and more proactive leaders to continue expanding the service
@@adianchowdhury9016Unfortunately, Downtown NIMBYs are opposing SANDAG's new Downtown-Airport APM because it will ruin their views. Yes, I wish the APM were steel-wheeled, but between an APM which will run every 2 minutes and an airport Trolley running every 15, I'll take the APM.
Whenever people say things like, “China has an HSR line between Beijing and Guangzhou, so why can’t America have one that long?”, I always think of how the Chinese government has no regard for private property and how community activists would be upset if the US tried such a thing, so we should not think of whether China was able to do this, but why.
Being able to force purchases of private land belonging to a few people for public infrastructure projects that will benefit millions is a fairly essential tool that I'm shocked any country can survive without
@@planefan082 But another thing to consider is that when these “few people” have historically been persecuted by those in power, it may only enable violence and hatred against them with new propaganda fuel for hate groups.
@@aycc-nbh7289 Yeah, that's nasty, but sometimes it's necessary to demolish old buildings for new projects. It's obviously a shame, but if they're compensated properly it's not that bad (and still encourages good planning to not build in the way of future projects to begin with)
@@planefan082 But then the question becomes who determines what proper compensation is. If it’s the people demolishing the property, there is an obvious conflict of interest.
@@aycc-nbh7289 Market rates. Most countries track the market value of properties/land by the day. Usually doubled or tripled since it's involuntary.
The worst case of NIMBY case in my country is when they were planning on building 2 underground train stations in a city that would have dramatically improved transportation access, but the locals and even the municipality forced the project to be built between the adjacent carriageways outside the city on a huge project, breaking the record of the longest bridge in the country as well, just to serve the middle of nowhere, on the premise that "trains aren't meant to be in cities, only out of cities". Highest eyebrow lift I've made in a while.
Not only that, but these would be the same people complaining about inaccessible train stations.
"Not under my backyard"
*Sepulveda Line noises intensify*
Here in Houston NIMBYS have been hampering the expansion of our transit system for decades from when people were first talking about building transit in the 1970’s. For example the University Line which was part of the original plan approved by voters in the late 1990s and would have provided an invaluable connection between our downtown and uptown districts was fought by NIMBYS and the local congressman for years until the project lost its government funding. Now the line was reapproved by voters in 2019 a second time but as a BRT line instead of the originally planned LRT line. While it’s good that we’re finally going to get some new transit built, the fact of the matter is that we could’ve had these existing line(s) for years that would have connected two of the city’s most important business districts and several key universities.
The resistance to transport in Houston is based more on racial conflict than anything else. Historically, blacks traveling through are moving into white or Latino neighborhoods is a death curse for property values and crime rates, so there is a cultural revulsion to allowing anything to go forth that might ruin the neighborhood.
NIMBYS or Automotive Advocates..?? 🤔
@@BassandoForte both most likely plus airline lobbyists in regard to high speed rail
@@starventure Everything you said about Houston could be said about Atlanta. Word for word.
@@dwaynerichardson5380 The original plan for MARTA was far bigger than what was actually built.
Part of the problem in Seattle is it has a fraught history with growth. A lot of people who live there didn't WANT it to get as big as it is, and so every new project is a sign of how it's not the city they moved to or grew up in. The nightmare scenario for a lot of Seattleites is that the city becomes San Francisco. Advocating for a "lesser Seattle" has a long history there, and there are still people who fantasize that if they block enough infrastructure and housing projects newcomers will stop showing up.
Namely people who got priced out of California.
I live in Budapest and I have already taken part in 3 surveys regarding planned infrastructure/public transit projects.
The responses to these surveys are usually quite positive and are then used to shut down any Nimby type of complains.
It is somewhat imperfect as these aren't representative surveys, but simply accessible for anyone interested.
There is still usually an open consultation, but afterwards if you have any complains...tough luck.
Also the city planners here like to push back against nimby arguments, I guess having an independent planning office that only asks for approval and funding from the city/government and otherwise just does it's own thing helps, as they don't need to worry about being re-elected.
Now corrupt politicians who like to push up the price with their meddling is another story......
It seems like it depends on the strength of the powers running a city. Los Angeles is very NIMBY sensitive and the central govt is fairly weak, giving single politicians more power than they should have. Chicago is a strong central govt city. This allows large projects and major changes to happen much more quickly. As a native of Los Angeles and former San Francisco resident now living in Chicago, I have been surprised at how fast things can happen in Chicago compared to Los Angeles and San Francisco.
Chicago does play hard ball w residents and businesses at times but the people seem to like it since they keep electing strong pushy mayors and leaders who can point to completed projects. Everybody seems to get a little something; it's kind of a "you want this? Fine , then you have to take that" kind of negotiation. Sometimes you wake up to find Meigs Field closed and bulldozed out of existence literally overnight and then you get an beautiful 2.5 mile elevated bike path and park across the city. Environmentalists loved the park, big business didn't like losing the airport, big business wins in other ways w major neighborhood transformative developments approved that infuriates others. Chicago isn't perfect but, somehow, it works.
I will say that elevated lines face a reputational disadvantage in the US. Everyone thinks of the Chicago or Brooklyn L trains which are very loud. Most Americans aren't aware of the graceful modern elevated sections running through neighborhoods in Vancouver. I think transit advocates and agencies should use video of the Vancouver sections during presentations.
I would have never known there was an airport there. Thanks for sharing that tip. The elevated Chicago lines are indeed loud and look like they need a lot of maintenance, but I think the choice was made, will stay that way for a long time and the city might prefer to use the funding to further expand those lines.
i remember when elon musk wanted to build a tunnel in LA but the neighborhood he was building under went full NIMBY and sued him.
Chicago is the best city in USA, and very affordable.
I'm not sure I agree with your assessment of Chicago here (as a resident as well).
Just take a look at all of the shelved projects in the last 10 years:
1. Orange Line Extension - Would have been huge for working-class residents in the Southwest side
2. Yellow Line Extension - Agree that this would have had minimal impact since it encroaches too far into suburbia and Metra territory in Skokie
3. Circle Line - This would have been the holy grail of connectivity in Chicago and its atrocious loop-and-spoke design. I used to Live in Lakeview, and I thoroughly enjoy spending time in Wicker Park and Logan Square. However, going the 2-3 mile trip via public transit would take at least 30 minutes and an average of 45, and was virtually impossible during the late hours.
4. Ashland BRT - This would have a been a great parallel west of the red line to serve the transit desert west of the red line in the south side. It also would make getting to United Center so much more easier for north and northwest side residents.
5. O'Hare/Midway Express - Admittedly, I understand why this might've been shelved. This didn't really contribute to equity as it mostly would've been used by wealthier residents and businesspeople. However, many major cities across the world have a direct express train from the airport to downtown. The current blue line ride is awful and unreliable, and the traffic on the Kennedy Expressway doesn't make taxis or ride-sharing any more appealing. If Chicago wants to compete with global business centers, this is a must.
@@rohithamruthur I hear you and yeah, lots of things didn't get built but lots of good things did and are happening like:
Red Line extension south
Bus only lanes in the Loop- granted it could be better
Rehabilitation of Red and Blue Line track and structures
Station rehabs on the Red Line and in the Loop
New stations on the Yellow and Green lines
New Pink Line service
Brown Line platform extensions for 8-car trains
Brown Line overpass over the Red Line
Sure, I'd like to see extensions on the Orange Line as well as BRT on various corridors north/south and east/west and the Circle Line would have been awesome but the L was in a bad state in those days and rehab work was sorely needed before expanding services. That is happening now.
The Orange Line extension looks different now that Ford City is deserted but, I do think it should head further south.
The airport express trains are at the very bottom of my list. I wouldn't support an airport express train until every other L extension, rehab, and BRT need in the city has been met. We have direct heavy rail L connections to both airports and that's better than any other American city.
With all the mega development projects planned for Goose Island, it's possible that a connection between North/Clybourn and the Division Blue Line station could happen w a connection to a new Metra station closer to North Ave.
Here in Denver, the T-Rex project was originally going to use the old ROW of a former C&S branch but NIMBYs obviously said no so they re routes the line onto I-25.
At least Denver is mostly getting its transit expansion!
A few years ago Amtrak extended a service to my town. In order to increase the frequency of services, they wanted to build a storage shed behind a small subdivision. The outcry from the people who had a train track run through their backyard held up the project for years and kept services limited due to the lack of train storage. They argued that when they moved in, the train line didn't have any services as if that was reason to prevent a new passenger rail connection to a major city. It's really quite frustrating when people put their own mild inconveniences above serving the greater community, or even seeing the benefits transit brings to their home.
In my experience, NIMBYs tend to be more well-off residents especially when it comes to transit projects.
Just use the British model: Spend years in consultation then when that phase ends tell the Nimby's "you're alright mate, we start construction on Monday". Look on the bright side, if they build these deep it'll leave plenty of space above them when they start building the system into more of a mesh concept.
“I found a sandwich on one of your trains and I want to know, why didn’t it have mayonnaise? I met Doug Ford once and I’m gonna tell him about this! “ Basically every public consultation I’ve ever sat through. I have found a strong correlation between bored weirdos & change resistant people and their propensity to show up to town meetings.
I’ve been binging your videos the last 2 weeks and Iv gotta say, I love your content. But one side effect is now I’m realizing my city really has nothing good as far as transit goes. We have the regular busses, even some electric busses but nothing is being done to improve them. I looked into it and the only thing they have planned is adding art to the bus stops but even then only In downtown. After this video I think I’m gonna start going to planing meetings in the future and show my support for more public transportation.
That's so great to hear!
After some time going to those meetings you will be so upset that you will engage more in politics by joining a party or accepting a nomination and so on...(however that works in you country).
In anyway you will be acting to reinvigorate democracy in your area, country and what not. In these times, that's what is needed. Good Luck and cheers from a Swede that's been engaged in party and environment interest politics since he's teens 😀
NYMBY has now led to BANANA: build absolutely nothing anywhere near anything/anyone
"or a gravity elevator to the other side of the planet" - Love It!
The issue with elevated lines is that people think of the large iron and steel structures used in New York and Chicago instead of modern, more aesthetic guideways
Yeah, I guess they just didn't exposed with modern guideways, stations and trains that they thought they gonna build exactly like NYC which is more than 100 years old, of course they look old. Funny how they supposed to have money to travel yet ignorant on things outside their comfort zone.
@@kornkernel2232 I think it may be because that is what people see on tv as it is pretty rare to see other systems represented in entertainment works, at least in US media
And honestly as a New Yorker, they’re fine. A bit loud sometimes, and sometimes gets a bit rusty, but brings character, more so than an elevated highway
@@peskypigeonx that is how Chicagoans feel about the L, that it is simply part of the regional character and culture and feel there is no reason to get rid of it
@@tonywalters7298 I love the train. I depend on it for school since I live in the final stop line of the Pink Line. I however would love to see new routes and expand the Yellow line due to how insanely small the line is. Some of the new lines should involve Transportation from suburbs to suburbs too. Although I have no idea where to go to, other than downtown, Millennium park, Navy Pier, Logan Square if I'm honest.
When an elevated line is mentioned, some people doubtless envision something like the old el along Washington Street in Boston. It was an ugly, rusting steel affair that blocked the light to the street below. The rains rumbled and shrieked loudly, and there were many stairs up to the exposed platforms. New elevated trains that I have seen in video are usually poised on sleek, slender columns. The trains are more quiet, and the railbeds muffle the sounds to the street below. The platforms are reached by escalators and are protected from the weather. Modern surface lines are also quieter, and from a block away you'd hardly know they were there.
Tons of great points! I agree that many plans are pre-emptively recoiling from NIMBY pushback. When scoping my current project, our team was obsessively aversive to impacting the four relevant community boards. One of the four is particularly known to be very wealthy, well connected, easily provoked, and vocal. Without exaggeration, tens of millions of $ were added to the project to avoid criticism that hadn't even been lodged yet.
Anyone have suggestions on dealing with encouraging a project to be more bold and bear the criticism for less time to have better results to reveal? Or how to deal with politics dictating scope?
Oh God I hate "nimbys"! My first introduction was when I was younger and they were trying to build the New Hampshire Motor Speedway in 1990, there was already a large motorsports park there since the 50s, so this was seen as a chance by all the people that shouldn't of moved there in the first place if they didn't like the noise and traffic to shut it down. This is when I personally love bribery because the builder bought the town a new fleet of firetrucks and suddenly the town didn't care what the citizens thought.
I think you're on to something about people not always caring as much as we think, when it's something you care about you become hyper aware of pushback.
I'm glad you made a Video about this, The Reason why there's no Train Access to LGA.
Hopefully that can be fixed going forward!
Absolutely spot on! I once wrote a letter to the Sydney Morning Herald newspaper on the topic, becasue I got fed up with hearing stories about these whingers. In Sydney, There is and empty platform at Woollahra on the Eastern Suburbs line due to these people. The Bondi railway never went ahead because the hoytie-toytie crowd down there. The Epping-Chatswood line includes a 1 in 30 grade to get the line from Chatswood, under Lane Cove National Pk, then back up a 1 in 30 to Macquarie PK, this was because the snobs at Lane Cove didn't want a bridge constructed over the valley. In Newcastle, the NIMBYS had an existing railway removed because it cramped the lifestyle of these clowns. The Sydney monorail was removed due to NIMBYS. I think these people need a lesson in how to stop being so selfish.
Feed them to the gators.
You're so right. In Berlin some tunnels are cm apart from one another, on top of each other. And they work since 80 years. We have so many tunnels right under a major street. It's cheap and super easy. Don't know what their issues are in the US.
all my favorite channels are going hard on NIMBYs all of a sudden and I love to see it
in Italy the worst example of NIMBYism (?) ought to be the "No TAV" movement.
it started locally ( _on the ground of environmental protection of an alpine valley where a project for high speed rail, connecting the france and italian networks together, is being built_ ) but it quickly gained mainstream political traction ( _by mobilizing those against major infrastructure project spending and general unwillingness to change_ ). for a time the biggest ( _at the time_ ) party in Italy the "5 star movement" endorsed it. it now stands on it's own with a fanatical support base quite similar to those seen opposing vaccine mandates and such, but luckily with but a fraction of it's former notoriety.
When I lived in one of my country's major cities (250.000 people) and it got a light rail network consisting of two lines, I always found it funny, that the bus that I took from less than 200 metres from the light rail stop only took 2-3 minutes longer, and took me exactly to the place I needed to go to with 10 minute departures against the light rails 30 minute. In reality, that light rail line, which came from a smaller city with many commuters, with its 30 minute departures taking 20 minutes to the city centre, was a massive improvement over an hourly bus that took 40 minutes.
Related is the urban/rural divide for building intercity/high speed rail lines, in which rural landowners argue that they have to make the larger sacrifice while not seeing benefits from the infrastructure. This dynamic is playing out in Texas with the texas central railway, in which powerful rural landowners are trying to scuttle the project out of fear of having their lands disrupted
Same in California with the High Speed Rail. The authority had to fight a lot of stubborn farmers, which became a sink of money and time.
In my country, NIMBY's caused one of the stations to be shifted from next to a suburb area to next to nowhere, plus put a rail project on hold indefinitely...
Great video, Reece! A nice supplementary video to City Beautiful's video about NIMBYs
In Vancouver, the first skytrain line in the 1980s (Expo Line) was built elevated, along a former railway right of way. The predicted quiet system wasn't and the next line going though Vancouver (Canada Line) was cut and covered. Kind of a NIMBY, but elevated wouldn't have worked in a heavily built up area. Now we come to the Arbutus corridor, a former CP rail right of way on the wealthier west side, purchased by the city of Vancouver. The term "creme de la creme" is etched in every vancouverite's mind, as a NIMBY described herself and her fellow residents in opposition to a tram.
NIMBY‘s are not only a major hinderance to transit projects, but also many other large scale projects e.g. renewable energy (just look up Bavaria‘s 10 H rule for wind turbines, it‘s ridiculous)
Thank you very much for making this video. Very well said and really good mentioned points.
Great content ... as always. Thanks man!
This is the reason why we don't have the Astoria Line serving LGA today. (They claimed to be concerned about some parks on 20th Avenue, but they're not right by 31st Street, unlike a gas station that would be inside the bend.)
I wouldn't mind a tram line right in front of my front door, as long as I can get on and off it from that point...
...but this is just part of the fairly recent rampant entitlement among older segments of the population...
I'm loving the NIMBY push by all of the urbanist accounts this week
Good video on this topic 👍.
Actually the problem of NIMBYs isn't an exclusive problem in say US or Canada, but one with appears in many other parts of the world too. Its so weired how people expect public transport, long distance transport with short travel time or even "green" energy without having the necessary infrastructur. Yes, busses, trains, trams or whatever needs money, space, creates some kind of emmisions at one point and will likely affect one at a point. However, in case none of the named things are available, people start yelling as well 🤦♂️.
Here in northern Germany we try to build a High Speed track between Hamburg an Hannover since more than 30 years. The current track is on 140%(!!!) capacity and yet NIMBYs still claim, that a HS-track isn’t needed and it’s enough to build a 3 track along the existing on here and there.
It became a real tragic comedy here, despite evidence clearly stating that only the HS-track can resolve the current problems and building upon the existing tracks has a very bad cost-benefits ratio, NIMBYs and local politicians simply shut their ears and block the progress as much as they can.
It’s really frustrating on one hand, but I can also sense, that more and more people are fed up with the bs and - let’s face it - tyrannical acts of NIMBYs. Let’s see what the future brings and hope for the best
10:50 thanks for this position of view Reece. I never thought about that
Based on this video I'd love to know your opinion on the Don Valley Layover, it sounds like a very classic case of either Nimbys complaining over a responsible and advantageous upgrade for GO transit users, or is it an environmentally destructive waste of effort?
Given it’s right next to a highway on an existing (but yes overgrown) rail right of way I think the pushback is excessive. That said, it could probably be optimized more.
I agree, if cities didn't waste time debating disruptions, residents concerns, and depth but instead took advice of experts and engineers we could've had lesser disruptions and more developed transit lines less costlier.
2:43 I get Geoff marshall secrets of the underground flashbacks Everytime I hear 15 floors. Also why do people want 50 meter deep tunnels for noise reasons when they have to listen to cars 24/7
every deep level tube station has a staircase the equivilent of a 15 storey building.
even if the number of steps change.
"NIMBYism" is a huge problem in recent years in Germany as well. Speaking for Berlin, the long proposed rebuild of the "Dresdner Bahn" for high speed trains has been a huge issue, because residents complain about the noise of the ICEs, that will operate there, once the reconstruction is complete. This makes no sense, because the S Bahn, which is way louder and operates more frequently doesn't seem to bother the residents, but quiet occasional ICEs are an issue??? By the way, many people moved here just a couple of years ago, while the plan has been proposed back in the 1990s.
Another example, the tramline 21 was supposed to be relocated directly to Ostkreuz in 2017, because this station has been modernized for years and now offers regional traffic as well. Residents complain about noise and the decline of parking spots, although the old tracks were even busier and louder. Nothing has happened yet and the people still have to walk 500m to the station. Thank you, nimbys!!!
well moscow had really deep stations and escalators work just fine, yes you stay for about 2 minutes on them but during connection it doesn't matter that much
The problem is elevators, not escalators.
@@simonbone Yeah relying only for elevators are the issue. Tbf Moscow having deep metros have other reasons, bomb shelters. Stations and the lines are really designed for that. So they have a least a good reason. Issues with others like in North America is that they resort having really deep tunnels due to vocal whiny nimbys. Not because of other practical and logical reasons.
Probably the most relatable rant on RUclips!
People get the vapors about these transit projects, and yet in Chicago we're now in Year 9 of the reconstruction of the Circle Interchange (now named the Jane Byrne Interchange) and hardly anyone bats an eyelid. I guess it's one rule for roads and another for everything else.
On the tunnels near other tunnels point, for crossrail in london there was a point at Tottenham court road, where the crossrail tunnels had to be threaded between the busy and operational central and northern line tunnels, with just a few cm between the new tunnels and the existing ones. They referred to it as threading the needle.
I like the point you made concerning elevators
I have two small children and having travelled with them, baggage and stroller, I must say that accessibility is a huge problem (at least where I live in Germany). While stations in a lot of places are getting elevators installed and the like the problem extends to the time you need to get a space on an elevator (which at crowded stations might take three to five minutes, great examples are Berlin Gesundbrunnen, which is heavily used, but only has one pair of elevators per double (island) platform and Munich central station where the connection between the UBahn and the train station includes at least one "useless" elevator ride (with only one available elevator) to get around a two or three meter height difference that takes less than ten seconds on the neighboring stairs).
This makes travelling w/ public transport much less feasible and requires you to endure longer travel times - I thus highly discourage moving to elevator only stations, where it is technically feasible to do so (excluding Instanbul's Marmaray for example) as staircases and escalators just offer so much more capacity and are the better option for the overwhelming majority of passengers to minimize travel times.
Sorry for only including local examples, but travelling with a 2 and 1/2 year old wasn't really feasible internationally the last couple of years
In europe where it would make sense to dig deep, as our cities are old and full of historic artifacts, we make surface and low surface lines, in NA where there's nothing to worry you guys dig deep.
As you explained in your video, Barcelona's line 9/10 was built with really deep stations that only have elevator access. This was due to the method used and the amount of tunnels already present. In fact, the upcoming extension of line 8 will also have super deep stations accessible only by elevator due to the sheer amount of underground infrastructure in the city.
where I lived in flat Lincolnshire British Rail were proposing to run long goods trains on local tracks, because of the ground bridges are expensive and we have a high proportion of level crossing. that means the barriers would be down longer, but there had been a campaign to get transport off roads and onto railways so we had two sets of nimbys fighting each other
On the engineering challenges you mentioned, I find it curious how in México most metro expansion projects are done as elevated viaduct while citizens (not necessarily NIMBYs) ardently fight for underground construction, the other way around to how it seems to be in Canadian cities.
At least here, elevated viaducts seem to be a cost-cutting measure from the government, and even while being cheaper than tunneling, they always cut even more corners while making the viaducts, resulting in uglier and more dangerous metro lines (like line 3 in Monterrey and line 12 in México City)
Excellent discussion. Thought provoking. Thank you.
NIMBYS Have basically killed MARTA expansion here in Metro Atlanta. It has made it hard for commuter rail as well. Thankfully this is starting to slowly change.
MARTA really needs Gwinnett to join the system
weird, since MARTA has proven that TOD works. just look at Buckhead.
I don’t know if you take viewer suggested topics, but Seattle is actually working on a pretty exciting ferry electrification project, electrifying most of the ferries on the Puget Sound incrementally over the next 10-15 years. The first ferries are actually being retrofitted at the moment.
The issue in some parts of the United States is related to raising taxes to fund Transit projects. That can mean going to the ballot box. An example of how that is related to NIMBY can be found in the Hampton Roads Area of Virginia. There are seven cities that make up the Hampton Roads Area. Most of them are serviced by Light Rail Line except Virginia Beach (which is the largest city in Virginia). The citizens in that city voted down the tax levy since they did not want other cities in the area to have easy access to them. I am sure they also assumed that the property values would be decreased.
I’d argue this is one of those cases where too much local influence is exerted
@@RMTransit This is one of the few areas where I agnolege some of their argument but not for those reasons. It's not that they oppose light rail most would have . It's the fear that if Virginia Brach densifies by A drastically change its zoning requirements or B large scale TOD. To the eyes of the Virginia Republican Party which many of their large city doners such as town bank,7 it's basically game over for the gubratorioals in the state of Virginia in the governor's race. So large donors specifically. townbank ran a conspiracy about some law that both municapaliutes cant build on to a rail project unless its all built at once. But this was very much a watered-down arguments yet despite this they succeeded. If it did happen they would have been more of a push to extend it to the ocean it would go down the slippery slope of the voter base moving southwest into southern Chesapeake or move down to the NC aka Moyocks exurbs.
I actually have some person experience with them.
One is my nana who complained about a popular fast food truck being near her house because in her eyes “it will lower the property value.”
Another example my cities expansion. Although one criticism was legit, (the area had basement flooding issues. Although was an odd complaint since a waste treatment facility was in the plans as well) the rest were not. During the council meeting in December this lady was b*tching that because more busses were going in the area it would make it loud and uncomfortable. Oh and the best one I heard was her saying it would destroy the close knit small community by adding more housing.
If you wonder what was being built, it was about 400 single family homes, over 2 dozen douplex’s, 180ish on street townhouses, 1 block for medium density, and some minor wetlands as buffers.
Singapore is an interesting place for tunnels. There are TBMs working all over the island on different projects. Outside my place in Marine Parade, they have been building an MRT line under the road for some years. And their project management is so good there have been no real delays to traffic over these years. Expected completion 2024. Hoping I am still here when the line opens.
They are also building new tunnels for utilities, ammunition storage, and oil storage.
If you want a real example of some close tunnels, at one of the stations on Crossrail's core (Tottenham court road I think) the tunnel came something like 8mm clear of an escalator shaft and a few cm clear of some other running tunnels, and the whole station stayed in operation with people on the platforms monitoring for any form of vibration during the work - basically, any space is enough space
Good video! These deep stations take forever to walk though...figure almost 7 minutes for a very deep station vs say 30 seconds for a cut and cover station. Politicians (especially Chinese) don't even think of this though. You take rapid transit to save time...so if you spend a lot of time walking that nullifies its advantage. We need to grade stations on their walking times...Station X should be referred to as a 4 minute walk, station Y a 2 minute walk, etc... Transit planners should have to answer why they are designing a long walk station and what they can do to reduce this. In the US elevated tracks/stations have to go through unreasonable environmental/regulatory reviews and face inevitable lawsuits. This is not fair. Elevated stations don't really cause a negative impact aside from noise...but if you don't run an elevated train at night, that shouldn't be a problem. Elevated rapid transit (in the US) needs an expedited process to get past regulations/lawsuits.
There is no reason a proper modern elevated railway being noisier than a motor road filled with cars. If US is reviewing railways construction in a way stricter than building highways for cars, than there is something very wrong in your law.
In Vancouver there was NIMBY with the building of the Canada Line, mostly from businesses. Less so for the Broadway extension as it is generally deeper along its route, which is a necessity to intersect with the Canada Line.
TBH, the subway in uni's could easily be constructed in the carparks under the central campus so that students can be delivered directly without causing too much disruption and all they lose is about 50 or so parking spaces but 50,000 in foot traffic a day, if they find that the carpark isn't used as much as it used to then they could partner with a network to manage the parking as a paid parking lot for the people that just ant to use the subway earning income for the uni.
The same with many government locations, parliament, hospitals, etc..
Such a great point about putting increased costs into perspective, along the lines of what the money could otherwise get the community.
Absolutely, the tradeoffs exist but aren't made clear . . .
Legalize apartments! We need to vote to ban exclusionary zoning.
Yes, but we need so much more too!
Force all whites out of the cities and give them over to blacks with high density housing and consistent mass transit. Let whites create new cities for themselves if they want to otherwise low density suburbs.
@@starventure That sounds like something the Nazis did. Racial apartheid, just what we need.
There is a hidden significant benefit of digging DEEP to built transit lines. In times of emergency, the network can serve as a civil defence shelter. The British saw it during the blitz in WW2. The Soviet Union invested heavily in building metro stations very deep so that the population could shelter in the event of a future war (even nuclear). The deep metro of Kiev sheltered families during the Russian invasion. I hope that the people of Seattle will never have to use it for anything other than commuting.
Singapore is doing the same. There, Civil Defence underground shelters are usually accessible via the metro stations.
Interesting subject Reece!
NIMBY activity has also picked up and getting quite a lot of coverage for REM de l'Est in MTL; they seem to think the overhead lines are ugly instead of cheap and efficient and the trains will be like freight trains going at full speed with the noise levels..
Did you Arrange this with City Beautiful?
I did not! Interestingly though….
in lisbon the metro started a project of a circular line.
this project will conect the yellow and green lines, but by doing so, is cuting the yellow line to just a residual branch. the objective of this project is to descongestionate the busiest station in Lisbon, that is Cais-do-Sodré. If I can catch my train and arrive at the station 10 minutes later, its a nigthmare. you see those pictures of the japanese oficials pushing people onto the train? we also have to do this at rush hour, but it's the passengers themselves. by having a circular line, people could divide by the 2 directions, having 2x more trains
but the city hall tried to stop the project, with the objection that it would cut the people from the end of the yellow line (the least busy part of the system) and they would have to make a transfer.
I do 3 tranfers in my comute, and this project wont make it better or worst, but having more trains with more regular service and at higher speeds will benefit us all.
the government over-ruled the city hall. it's unreasonable to keep a system that isnt working and abstaining from making the comute less painfull for its main users (that literally are pushed into the trains), and faster for the majority of them, just because the minority would have to wait 50 seconds to 2 minutes
The Seattle elevator thing makes me think of forest glen on dc metro and how desperately I want them to do an experiment where they pack in 2 trains and have them both offload there and see how the lifts cope.
You should do a video on political decision-making / governance structures, and transit expansion decisions.
In quebec city I've read a chronicle against the new tram project from someone living, hear me out here, on an island, 7 km away from the actual project! And it was published by a very serious local newspaper. Peoples backyard seems to extend year after year to a point where every complaint, legitimate or not needs to be heard with the same weight
The frustration is visible in this video. Thank you RM for this great video. Vancouver resident here, 30s, working professional, just starting a family. What can I do overpower the NIMBYs here to get transit and housing projects moving?
have a billion dollars?
One of the major downside to the amount of local control in US politics. If you want the benefits of urban living, you can't also demand the benefits of rural living.
City Beautiful just covered about this recently XD
A transit project nearby will likely reduce overall traffic noise and increase your property value. Maybe that's what you should lead with in these meetings.
Yes in my back yard! Bring back VIA. Support the Green party bill to make passenger rail a right.
I think it's funny that people are worried about hearing an underground light rail line from their high rise condos, when in Chongqing, China, there's a train that literally goes through an apartment building.
Kinda random, but the new Munich tunnels are build at 40m depth. Basically because it "crosses" some subway lines (which also cross each other, so they too are at different depth) and they do not want to get too close to them.
Obviously you shouldn't do it if there's no reason for it but in this case I don't see what else they could have done. Probably still will be a nuisance, we'll see I guess.
You should make a video regarding announcements/door chimes if you haven't already. In my opinion, I think SF MUNI Metro, for as bad of a system it is, has good announcements. I visited there a while back and they have different chimes for different directions, the destination and the amount of train cars. bart sort of has this too. also try to make a video regarding way finding information/signage. Thats also important too.