You start from the center and the nodes are at every direction. Why the hell can’t i get nodes located at one location so that I can at least compare them side by side and know what am i aiming for rather than watching a RUclips video to get what build are meta and other BS. PS: I never got into POE because of their bad loot drop optimization for PlayStation.
The difference between PoE and D4 is that GGG don't describe +5 stats as "deep". If you say something offers more depth, show the nodes that actually offer depth. But in the end it's true that we don't know even though they could've shown us something more substantial. Typically when you try to sell something, you show the good, not the bad.
I'll play devil's advocate here and say it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. if they show it, people will complain that it's a spoiler or that the nodes they show are underwhelming, if they don't show it, people will complain that they aren't showing the "good" nodes. I personally think they should have revealed at least a couple of interesting nodes to give people something else to ruminate about other than "+ 5 to stat" that they ended up "teasing".
+5% might be "deep" if you can get your numbers high enough but if your "main" stat is just around a thousand thats next to worthless too just like +5 id expect the numbers would need to be +30% - 50% to really be worth an investment
Disagree with asmon's point, PoE has many +10 stat on the tree, yes, but the gear actually REQUIRES stats to be used(so pathing into some dex nodes as a "wizard" is a way to equip armor that requires dex), which is NOT a "limitation" in d4, also this is supposed to be an endgame system and i dont think they've shown a SINGLE gamechanging paragon node, at the bare minimum its a marketing fail, at worse, its just paragon levels but on a tabletop format instead of an Excel Table
Exactly, I wish they would add more outdated and tedious features like managing your stats just to wear equipment i LOVED that in D2 too, so amazing, while we are at it why make it so easy to use potions? I hate this, i want to manage my potions in my crowded and limited inventory and run back to the shop every 10 seconds, man these are the top features that make these games GOOD!
@@danielmarko3258 after trying out d4 open beta and then playing D2R, it does show that old "classic" mechanics have indeed aged badly. Limited inventory requiring to TP every 2min, being punished (for not following a guide) by not being able to respec on the fly when you cant know in advance that you'd need certain stats to equip a new piece of gear you just dropped, having to carry 16 potions, etc. I'm so happy a lot of things are streamlined and added QOL.
@@vindictiv6880 ... people love those system because you,re supposed to LEARN while playing. Making another character with the knowledge you acquired while failing your first character is what drive people. These games are meant to be replayed a lot. Making mistakes and learning is how you enjoy those games. You're the reason people with more than 2 brain cells can't have good things.
It's not about D4 having those nodes, it's about showing them in the trailer when they talk about game changing nodes and abilities in the paragon system.
No its not about the trailer, this double standard towards blizzard is very real. There is years of loud long moaning to prove that. Whatever they do they always get shit. Unpleasable 'fan'base. Sometimes warranted and sometimes absolutely unfounded crying.
@@H4rd5tyl3 That's not what it is for me. The official trailer looks like a fan-made version of the trailer specifically made to poke fun of the "meaningful choice". It's weird.
@H4rd5tyl3 I could care less about the lore or history about the double standard, this was a showcase of the paragon system and it was meh. That's the fact like it or not.
The problem isn't with the double Standard, Path of Exile devs will never do something as stupid as making a video about "End-game" and then highlight the +10 attributes filler nodes, if blizzard think these are the best thing they have to offer right now then may God help us....
Yes POE has a lot of pathing (flat attribute) nodes, but from what they showed it seems like 70% of the paragon board is attribute nodes and then the remaining 30% are akin to small passive nodes in POE. POE as asmon clearly knows also has on top of that; notables, keystones, masteries, and jewel sockets (which can then fit cluster jewels for more customization).
Especially because if you just look at it % wise you legit have like 15% pathing nodes which are attributes and the rest do more or something different(Accurate number actually counted its 187 attribute nodes 70% of which youd never even be near of on most builds). In poe you basically have 3 big circles of attribute nodes with connections to the middle of the tree and thats it, everything else is unique and adjusted to whatever spot you are in the tree. If you wanna look at it another way, every single attribute node with very few exceptions is connected to roundabout 10 different passive nodes of which 2 are notables( and then you have all keystones next to attribute nodes aswell.) Its mindboggling how they think this has anything to do with depth and isnt anything more than pure laziness.
@@meechumm3186 and? Thats even less of an excuse. Blizzard can just copy that. Your argument is nonsense. And even IF it had any validty, then the reactions are on point. You want better reactions? Then wait for the development to go on longer. In 3 years, the reactions might change. Such a stupid stance you have.....
I mean the number of +5 main stats in D4 and PoE is different. D4 is like replacing the whole PoE tree with +5 stats, then sprinkle ~10 meaningful passives in random locations on the tree. Even in the showcase, I’m pretty sure they showed 1 special passive.
Exactly. In PoE they have attribute nodes, yes. But they are just side-nodes on the way to completely game changing nodes. It just adds a lil extra layer of planning out. Nobody in PoE gets an endorphine kick from hitting a +5 STR node lmao... I think we all know why they dont show the game changer nodes...
@@wujekstalin1 and even then, in POE are builds that make use of stats (stat stackers) and long term travels in the tree (support by stat stacking jewels)
Exactly. I also wanted to add that in PoE items and skills have attribute requirements which can be pretty tricky to fulfill in many cases, so str/dex/int nodes aren't useless at all. Additionally, there are whole viable and strong builds based on stacking them as high as possible. So, a pretty trash take from Asmon. There are no double standards. It's just that the paragon tree seems awfully bland and boring from what they've shown us until now.
It's pretty awesome for GGG that the game franchise they copied is now copying them poorly. That's a crazy arc for what was a couple of guys making a game in their garage.
@@Kingof4pples "not even launched yet" while technically true, the game is basically launched at this point. Its gonna be in the next few big updates. Still a great game though. POE was ASS when it first hit steam. Objectively worse than D2, and D3 was more fun when it launched. I think LE is probably the best of the bunch as far as casual experience. POE / POE2 will probably be the best of the bunch as far as actual depth, content, and diversity. My hope is that d4 is just a slightly less accessible version of LE. We will see how they handle it though.
@@Eilanzer I actually hope it becomes atleast as good/popular if not better than POE. Same with D4. It forces all 3 games to make great content so they don't fall behind & beat the other 2 which is a good thing for us players. I'd rather have 3 games with great content than 2 dead games and 1 game with shit new content since there is no competition
your mind setap is "poor" if you want every game to be the same and for the same target. Diablo is casual hns and poe is more like calc simulator that takes more than playing game with brainless zooming and all gameplay comes f from calculations and creating builds where in diablo you just sit with friends, drops items, item is better and that's all. stop being a snow flake and egocentrical. For many Diablo 4 is better and this is due to other expectations and these people are not worse - they are different and thinking about it's worse - makes only you weak and worse.
Asmon everytime someone else compares D4 to PoE -> "But it's not trying to be PoE, it's own game, and that's good. We shouldn't compare the two" Asmon whenever he sees something in D4 that PoE has -> "Oh, but PoE does this and no one complains"
The times he says not to compare is when they start saying but Poe has this feature why not diablo. Wheat he is saying here is people are upset about the paragon boards but praise Poe for the exact same thing.
@@theonetruespades5127 But it's not the same thing. Every single skill and item in PoE have stat requirements. Every build have minimum amount of attributes that is needed to even be playable, and that's why PoE have smaller attribute nodes leading to bigger nodes that will define your build in the end. DIablo 4 have neither of these systems in place when it comes to attribute requirements. Attributes are just divided into more defense/damage, and that's why the system works for PoE, and not D4.
@@Human000001 see there you go rather than waiting and seeing how it actually works you compare a game that hasn’t been released to one that’s had more than enough time to create a good suitable way to interact with players in the end game. You gotta wait homie and if it’s not your cup of tea then Poe is still there for you to love and hold. Diablo having a few generic slots with plus 5 here plus 5 there leading to legendary slots which they already talked about and socketed slots which they also talked about previously, you took a clip of however many seconds with a couple base descriptors and created a opinion without actually seeing how it interacts with the world truly. If it bugs you that much then no issue like asmon said before do not buy it wait a few years and see lol like relax dude your getting perpetually angry for no reason.
@@theonetruespades5127 First of all, I'm not angry, thats you. Secondly, I've never said that I prefer PoE's system over D4. I'm just pointing out the facts, and compare to the information that's been given to us. You're the one that's getting emotional, while trying to defend a game that you haven't seen everything of yet either. And for all we know it would be a lot worse than what we've seen. You're just coming of as someone who will defend an unreleased game to the bone as soon as you think someone views it in a negative way.
The Devotion Tree for Grim Dawn seems way more interesting then this. With that you build a map of constellations and get extra abilities from completing a constellation that you can assign to trigger from the abilities you already have from the regular talent tree. This means that the Devotion you go for a build that channels one ability most of the time is going to look totally different from a character that wants to cast 5 or more different spells in a rotation or a shield based character that wants to trigger devotion abilities from blocking.
Grim Dawn is the best arpg People are like "I hope D4 will be middleground between poe and D3 🤤" *FOOLS!* Grim Dawn has been doing that for a decade now, and trusting BLizzard "talent" to do it is folly at best
@@laszloneumann500only thing is that grim dawns combat sucks juicy dick. All of the rest is god tier, but the thing you spend the most time doing feels like trash.
@@laszloneumann500only thing is that grim dawns combat sucks juicy dick. All of the rest is god tier, but the thing you spend the most time doing feels like trash.
it is indeed odd how people have a completely different standard to a AAA company that charges $100+ for their game, then they do for an indie dev that releases a free to play game with more content for endgame... it is indeed odd
Except poe doesn't even do it like this. Your attributes come from gear and the passive tree. Some builds center around stacking attributes. But poe has so many other stats that can be mixed in ways the developers never planned that can absolutely break the game. With diablo, blizzard intentionally controls everything. You like a certain skill? Good. Hunt for the 3-5 items that are made for that specific skill and nothing else unless you want to be gimped. Poe's ingenuity lies in the fact that the passive tree can spawn literally thousands of builds. Diablo's paragon tree just makes your numbers go higher with the playstyle you already established. Yawn.
that lvl25 beta of just act 1 is a lot better than the entire POE questline and lore. all POE has is its endgame. other parts are boring. and that endgame is just spreadsheets.
Poe has connecting nodes to those juicy nice clusters all over the board. This seems like connecting nodes to 10% damage. And so far, there doesnt seem any reason to do any stat stacking.
As far as i know, paragon board's legendary nodes + glyphs are more or less the same ? That's literally the problem, PoE shills talking shit about "+5" nodes and thinking that it's all there is to this system in Diablo while it's far from the truth. It's Blizzard's fault not showcasing them though.
Dext on a barb grants extra critical hit chance. INT on a sorc grants extra skill damage and lucky hit chance, I believe. Or willpower grants extra overpower damage. There are reasons to stat stack, and I imagine most people will bolt for those legendary nodes, but there is a good reason to stat stack.
@@DoctorStrange01 theres 1 legendary node per board no? Sure we all expect the game to be not as complicated as PoE, and sure Diablo 4 has not showed everything yet. It just feels like it's gonna get stale fast with what choices we have, cause it feels like ( obviously ill take X cause I need it for my build ). They should make it at least that every boards as many orange nodes that are juicy so you have to decide which one you get.
@@Oxmosh They cant do though. If you create too many combinations of skills, then players can use combinations of skills that werent tested or intended. D4 is like D3, its all about recreating a pre-planned build that Blizzard made then parsed out over 10 different items for you to grind. You dont make builds, you play their builds
The thing Asmon needs to understand here is how Blizzard marketed it. People KNOW that PoE has all these amazing nodes to go for in the tree. But Blizzard just lightly mentions some impactful tree and then shows almost entirely stat-based nodes. They made ZERO effort to showcase all the meaningful nodes.
Yeah the team behind this showcase needs to honestly be fired lmao, this was really sad and pathetic. I really enjoyed the D4 beta and will be playing the game on release. But this showcase was god awful. Not just about what they showed either, everyone that talked just seemed like they had no enthusiasm for what they where talking about. I honestly do not blame people one bit for being disappointed.
in POE 5 of those +10 str/dex/int nodes lead to a big node that completely defines or breaks your build (i.e CI, Vaal pact etc.) in D4 18 of those +5 nodes lead to a bigger node that reads "critical strikes in wolf form restore 2 spirit" / 30 nodes for "Hitting a stunned enemy restores 10 mana" It's not "double standards", it's holding blizzard to ANY standards and unfortunately their own standards are lower than the floorboards We HAVE the build calculator, we can SEE the paragon boards and they add exactly 0% depth to the already shallow "skill tree"
@@ElSabio159 he's just not looked at the D4 build planner we have or is huffing copium hoping 1 month from now they'd completely redo the paragon board to make it interesting
In PoE you have stat requirements. You can build around stacking specific stats. Randomly investing points into strength on marauder doesn't make sense if you won't use items that scale with the stat itself. In D4 it's just "main stat = increased damage". It doesn't compare at all, what is he talking about.
I think Asmon has a lot of misunderstandings of why certain things are good in PoE and not good in Diablo 3. PoE's design as a whole makes it to where attributes are more needed for your character than in the latest Diablo games. There are very few characters builds in PoE that don't need at least about 100 of each stat for various gear and skill requirements. Additionally you can build characters entirely around stacking particular attributes to get special bonuses. In Diablo 4, there are no attribute requirements for most things in the game, and if you look at your character sheet, the actual thing that your character gets per point of attribute is so small that +5 is not going to make you feel anything. You can say that PoE having attribute requirements for gear and skills are bad, but I feel like Diablo 3 eliminated many of the things that went into building a character and replaced it with bunch of offensive stats that you just try to get more of and you never have to do anything to balance your character and make it work. That is MMO-esque character progression in a nutshell. So PoE may have attributes, and accuracy, and similar systems but all of these things add up to making building your character interesting. It doesn't feel good when your character progression is boiled down to something as simple as higher number than previous equals better. Non-linear gear progression, and losing certain stats to gain other stats is a core principal of ARPG design and what differentiated the from other types of RPGs, and if you remove that you are left with an experience that only appeals long term to people who have no prior experience with the genre. PoE also has much more interesting ratio of travel/notable notes. What little we can see in the video indicates that there are a ton of "travel" style nodes and very few "notable" nodes to do a direct PoE comparison. I would actually argue that, from the video, it looks like the paragon board is nothing more than a blend of the Diablo 3 paragon system, and the Diablo 3 legendary gem system, combined and organized into a board to make it look like a system that is more diverse than Diablo 3's.
"Non-linear gear progression, and losing certain stats to gain other stats is a core principal of ARPG design and what differentiated the from other types of RPGs" says who? You can't just make things up, my friend.
So you think in POE you can build characters around attribute stacking but you know for certain from playing to level 25 and not touching the paragon board or seeing all the legendary affixes or seeing all the uniques that attribute stacking is not viable in D4? Maybe you should reassess your own understandings of what you think you know.
@@Mark-ru7kc let me get ahead of the disappointment you're about to face with Diablo 4: if they had something promising to show us, they would have by now. Instead they have shown us almost nothing new over the last couple years.
Problem is in POE the attribute nodes are defined by the side of the tree they are on and also guide your choice in gear and skill gems. Not only do attributes not matter in D4 except for damage, but the tree shown in the video has a completely arbitrary litter of different attributes next to each other with no choices at all. It's not even remotely comparable.
They are there as filler. The cost to travel to the game defining passive clusters is that you only get attributes. Cost benefit analysis is required. You don't get all the good nodes for "free".
@@LeNoLi. The intent is obvious, but the execution and presentation is pretty bad. The fact that the stats you get are mixed and follow no real pattern, and you have barely any choice moving through 1 square wide pathways, makes it really uninteresting. The main mechanic seems to be flipping the whole tree around and connecting new ones, but the fact that this hasn't been demonstrated in any meaningful capacity makes me question if it's even finished.
Those stat points in PoE are NEEDED. Your skill gems need specific stat and if you don't have enough of one stat you can't upgrade it. I have experienced this and because of that I needed to take extra stat points from the skill tree. Diablo 4 doesn't have this kind of a system.
if they're keeping the original paragon system they were working on then they do have that system. some of the rare and legendary nodes had stat requirements.
Can't be further from the truth. There are rare and legendary paragon nodes in the board that only activate when certain stat breakpoints are met. Countless other streamers showed such nodes in their review videos.
For me nothing will top Grim Dawn's constellations system. It's so cool, it helps organize the bonuses into a way that makes sense intuitively instead of being a mass of icons and balls. It also makes you feel like you're tapping into the power of these constellations instead of just randomly clicking on an excel spreadsheet to get more power.
At this point in poe even most minor notables have at least something interesting to them The "+5 dex" points in poe are literally called travel points aka wasted points to travel through the tree rather than "adds a lot of depth" points
@@maxpowers4436 I want to clarify my choice of words: notables are the nodes you get that come every few points/in their clusters. Between nodes and keystones. They're things like "projectiles deal more damage as they travel" or "gain 3% of max life as max energy shield" etc etc Most of these are not only at least marginally interesting, but they also are usually immediately followed by a mastery, which provides many interesting options
@@maxpowers4436 Then you are shitty builder if majority of your passives goes to travel nodes or you are playing stat stacking, or you don't know simply wtf you are talking about.
@@kevinprengemann7456 of course. They're just generally "seen" as wasted in comparison. But yes, also thanks to the elaborate systems when it comes to gearing, even basic stats are important to hit thresholds
Here's why people have a different standard for blizzard. It's because they aren't the first to do it in this space but they always act like they are. And I'll walk you through this line of thinking. PoE has +5 strength nodes, now that is their thing, they are not the first to add it, and I'm sure they won't be the last. HOWEVER, they are also not claiming that it's new an improved customization, and there's the issue. Blizzard does this thing constantly where they talk themselves up about all the "great new things and customizations" they do. However when it comes to the reality of what they actually did, all they did was copy and paste other games. None of it is new, none of it is special or in any way different than the other aRPGs that have done it. So yea, Blizzard gets review bombed, because they deserve it.
In POE you can DO THINGS with attributes (attribute stacking, attribute conversion, changing what the attribute does, etc.). This just gives you attributes for... a slight increase in damage? That's terrible.
So does Diablo 4. The full paragon boards for Diablo 4 already leaked out ages ago from the closed alphas and betas where endgame play was possible unlike the open beta weekend. Paragon boards seem to have color coding for node types, grays are the small stat increases, blue are the larger stat increases, yellow are small milestones, red are glyph sockets, and orange are big milestones. Each class has a basic starting paragon board that is only grays, blues, 4 yellows, and then one red glyph socket. Then you get a choice for your 2nd paragon board, for instance Druid has 8, each focused on a different build type, those 8 optional 2nd paragon boards are Thunderstruck, Earthen Devastation, Survival Instincts, Lust for Carnage, Heightened Malice, Inner Beast, Constricting Tendrils, and Ancestral Guidance. Each of the 8 optional 2nd paragon boards has 6 yellow small milestone skills, 1 red glyph socket, and 1 orange large milestone skill.
Bad take from asmon there, of course people are gonna criticize diablo and not poe, since poe is f2p but diablo is charging you 70 to a 100 for an average game. And there's a lot of better things to get in the poe one. Here pretty much they're saying the stats is an "in-depth" mechanic.
It's not a double standard. I don't even play PoE but in that game you have a ton of builds even if some passives in the skill tree travel nodes are + stats (and mind you, stats in PoE actually have a lot of depth and are super important to enable gear/gems/builds). Diablo 4 has none of that and their stats system has 0 depth, so of course people were expecting a LOT more. I mean, even Last Epoch at level 25 already has 10x more customization than D4.... hell, even Grim Dawn (which is a game I didn't enjoy much) allowed for great customization with combined class trees + gear + relics + devotions. Might as well add Titan Quest in there which is a game from 2006. TQ still has 20x more build diversity than this lmaooo. This is depressing but not surprising at all. Oh and please don't try to justify it by saying "it's designed for casuals". Last Epoch is easy to understand, every build is viable, there's a TON of builds, lots of choice and it's incredibly casual friendly as well. Just because it's designed for casuals it doesn't mean it has to be braindead when it comes to choice. D4 seems to be more like a Hack and Slash game with some RPG elements, rather than an actual ARPG.
The D4 paragon system seems substantially worse than what Blizzard did in D3. Paragon points in D3 were giving me more stats that I already wanted, like move speed or resource cost reduction. Even though any single point was incremental, I was still getting the same stats I was targeting on my gear and in some cases, like the move speed cap, it allowed me to flex stats off of my gear and into my paragon points. The fact that PoE uses a similar system doesn't seem very relevant as to whether the system is good.
@@LegendaryBrandon1 that's the part that gets me man. Nobody hates blizzard more than blizzard fans, and that was before they started failing expectations. I've seen enough of diablo 4 to be interested, it's not even out, i can't fully form an opinion. But so many vids out like it's a four year old game lol. I get blizzards rep is bad but some people are extremely irrational. My favorite was probably that "the gear is generic garbage" video. The cap is 100 and your claiming that off of the BETA 25 cap. Get real 😂
@@Nahnono dude, you completely skipped over my point. The video i reference is specific to the gear being generic. Now on to paragon, blizzard has both said not everything has been revealed or leaked and the game will change and adapt over time. Could it be lip service? Sure, a lot of devs do that. You don't want diablo 4? That's fine. But the general internet blowback is a tad excessive. Get real yourself my guy
The ratio of interesting to boring nodes in POE is much higher. In Blizzard's literal advertisement of the paragon board to us, 95% of the nodes they showed are boring stat nodes. Either the paragon board doesn't have a lot of interesting nodes or Blizzard is just incompetent in showing how interesting it is. I think people are absolutely right to call it out.
I agree somewhat but the +5 in poe leads to a whole mini tree of passive with unique stat boosts. And only sometimes will you ever need to hit +5, 5 times in a row to get where you want to go. In diablo (its appears) to be +5 dex for a whole row, get one blue node, then do another row of +5, get a rate node, repeat til you get a legendary. It doesn't feel diverse and no its DOESNT need to be as diverse as poe but a little more would be good imo
And I claim that it should be as diverse as PoE. Yes you can claim that PoE is unplayable for casuals, and for me thats fucking great news, fuck casuals and people who do not care about the game. Game should be made for long staying hardcore fans of particular genre of game, because it is them who are keeping game alive both financially and socially. If they plan to make their game so fucking shallow that there will be literally no diversity in builds like in D3, then their game will die very fast. But who knows, maybe Blizzard is planning on destroying D4 completely? Because so far from what I've seen, it looks like they really do.
Dont wanna complain but seeing this makes me realize how good of a game GGG have managed to create. Just the skill gems with their tags alone give so many posibilities.
You have to have a master's degree in semantics to understand all of the different word definitions that GGG uses though. Increased vs. more, damage to hits vs damage to spells vs. damage to attacks, etc. GGG uses very precise language to convey what an item effect does but that also makes it extremely complicated as a new player (and even experienced players) learning what effect an item or talent actually has on your character/build.
Because in PoE +10 Strength has more value than just a timid stat increase. It also matters for getting gem requirements, and allowing them to be upgraded. If you combine 2+ attributes, it's quite possible that you may come short on one, but need more, so these simple +10 Strength nodes become significant.
I feel like another thing he failed to mention was that paragon levels imply your character is level capped. So in POE you get the +stat nodes right at the beginning of your playthough while in D4 this is the reward for hitting cap and continuing to play.
All I remember is not too long ago blizzard revealing the skill tree and it was insane. Literally a tree that branches off in a hundred ways and now we are left with a diagonal line to make us feel like we are making a choice when we really aren’t. They really need to focus more what made d2 successful and the negative feedback of d3 instead but I’m afraid what we’re going to be left with is a jumbled pile of mess unfit for release
No bit if you really want to commit to it you have to buy the stash tabs , if you get them all you are way over 70 euro. And thats only stash tabs. If you want your character to not look like shiy you are way above 150 euro. Now which is bettet.
@@MarQQuiSsee Everything you described are optional. The entry fee for Diablo is 70 straight up. You play an hour it's 70 dollars. PoE entry fee is 0. If I play an hour or 100 hours it's still 0. I have the choice to pay for the convenience or cosmetics. For that I have a higher expectation because Diablo is asking for 70 dollars straight up.
0:56 It's not double standard tho. PoE is free, while D4 costs $70 As Internet Historian said "Price tag. Sets. Expectations" For a $0 game I have no expectations but for a $70 I expect AAA standards.
I think the difference between PoE and Diablo is complexity though. PoE doesn't have hard-locked classes so even those basic nodes can add a lot more depth. Like my RF Juggernaut build going for intelligence. That doesn't happen in Diablo so little stat nodes offer 0 depth, every class is gonna build their one specific attribute for the most part.
@@Kayareswon are you joking? You have people hitting 100 on every single ascendancy in Hardcore SSf, every single league. Please dont speak about a game you clearly know nothing about
@@Ivight you know why the devs are fixing the linking system because it's trash. Poe players like everything about thr game because forgoing QoL is somehow cool.
The problem with these stats in diablo is that in Poe these stats are required for some build enabling skills/uniques which does not seem the case with Diablo. However, the main positive thing is that you have many attribute stacking builds/archetypes in Poe so they are not that dead of a stat, actually these small traveling points make much sense in these builds.
Know why people are irked by the stat nodes here and not in PoE? Because PoE doesn't show off these nodes as "innovative and build-defining" during their showcases. Just compare this vid with the one for the new PoE league, and GGG aren't even near as big as Blizzard.
asmongold doesnt understand the double standard thing... well its simple, POE doesnt market that +5 stat as an 'indepth feature'. When you need to boast/show something as mediocre as that in your FEATURED video, says a lot about what is there to be offered... Again, let copers cope.
PoE's skill tree has a lot of interesting notables and keystones connected by +5 stat nodes. D4 looks to just have +5 stat nodes and probably some like "+10% damage" nodes or whatever. The paragon board is meant to be the endgame thing to sink your teeth into, since everything else in D4 looks pretty simple.
Take a look into the legendary nodes, they aren't remedial. The endgame to sink your teeth into isn't the paragon system as it unlocks at level 50 and caps at level 100. This is a mid game system that progresses and finishes just as you reach true endgame. Helltides, Nightmare dungeons, PvP and World Bosses are more akin to what the endgame chase is.
I think partially its due to the horrendous scaling of what "5 dex, int, or str" actually means in-game. With numbers like that at endgame, youll feel 0 impact of those nodes, whereas, stacking those same nodes in PoE would actually create a meaningful difference in strength of the character
@@filiponi81 You don't need to play the whole game to see how stats interact with your character. You could already see that in the beta. +5 of one stat increases a modifier by a certain amount. The calculation won't change no matter what level you have.
i think problem is that 85% of the board is just plus to stats. the other 15 is like % dmg to X skill. At least with PoE you have a lot of nodes that add entire new ways to play the game, skills ext.
You can't compare PoE and Diablo 4. PoE has an entirely different skill, build, and gearing system. PoE has attribute stacking to meet gear and skill requirements AND builds focused entirely off of stacking. PoE also has notables, cluster jewels, keystones, and mastery nodes. You also have to plan your build from level 1 in PoE with its skill tree where in Diablo 4 Paragon Points come into the scene at level 50.
I will play diablo after release, cause i want to see how it perform. I will probably wait the first update post launch. To mind, it’s not as simple as +5/+10 carac when we compare this skill tree with the poe skill tree. The fact that you can make some awesome build, with a ton of synergy is the point. When I look at the actual way to play some classes in D4, I’m a bit disappointed by what we can read in this video. For example, Necro seems to have very few spécialisation. In a same time, I’m aware about the legendary and how they could change my opinion. We will see …
PoE has traveling nodes with + stats, but it leads to a massive choice of various other upgrades to choose from, all of which can be strong in their own way. This enables player choice based on play style. Diablo 4 will be + stats for basically every node, then on a rare occasion get something else extremely generic like + res. The boards just looks like a weird cluster fuck and not really a true tree with pathing options. It will inevitably lead to one specific build for each class as people optimize the best stat gain to points ratio. It's not really a bad thing though, definitely a step in the right direction. I think this is 10x better than the previous paragon system and actually gives something to work towards. I think over time, with refinement, it will be excellent. People forget how long PoE has had to design/redesign their system. And people hold Blizzard to a different standard because they absolutely should. They have more time and money in the industry than practically anyone else and they should put out nothing less than perfection. They should be ashamed if putting out games that perform worse than another with 1/100 of their budget. Imagine a cheap hallmark movie beating out a half billion Marvel movie in numbers....
Ooh, it's the license board from FFXII... Travel nodes in PoE's skill tree are just that; they essentially make it so that Major nodes cost more than 1 skill point. Travel nodes also, often, are more than just +X to main stats and force you to weigh different routes through to tree to major nodes. Plus! The major nodes often literally define a character and completely change how they play; not just equate to a travel node node but bigger. That's why there's a "double standard" between D4's license board and PoEs sphere grid.
it's not exactly the same thing. if you'd look at what they shown closely you'll see there are no path around to a certain nodes. you have to take it, where in poe there are more than 1 path to nodes.
Yes but in PoE you are stuck woth limited points and so you only get certain nodes. But D4 will likely let you keep earning paragon points for as long as you are willing to earn them.
@@An.Unsought.Thought In other words, in PoE you have to choose, in D4 choice doesn't matter cuz you'll get it anyway? Also pretty sure you wont be getting paragon points forever, level 100 is max level, you probably get paragons for doing a few side activities, but I think they'll be capped, otherwise we run into D3 again.
poe does have +x to certain stats too, but you have nodes too, and some of the nodes that contain stats plus also contains certain things to make your character more spicy, crit, chance to x, if you kill x you get x, etc.
@@NicolasSilvaVasault Yeah this video was an absolute fail but the paragon board has much more depth than presented. More depth even than the PoE passive board. When D4 will fail for PoE players is really the depth of the skill system even with D4 legendary/unique gear is not even close to the gem/link system. That said PoE2 will be dumbing down the gem/link system and removing some level of options from it as well so PoE does recognize its too much and too complex. The other big difference that will hurt D4 for PoE players is that the limits of trading in D4 is basically like playing PoE self found. The only trade market will be for elite rare base items but I'm really not sure there is anything worthwhile to trade them for other than elite rare base items. Like if PoE only allowed trading crafted items.
@@gaspara9817 "more depth than poe passive board" lmao, ok i understand your point, but you can't be serious here, poe has YEARS of improvements, complexity and mechanics in the passive skill tree
@@NicolasSilvaVasault Yeah, I admit it, it was hyperbole. PoE passive board still has cluster gems that probably add more depth than building your own board path with the rotating boards and the glyph system.
Asmon its not the same thing. Firstly attribute nodes in POE are +10 not +5, and some are +30, POE would be insulted to give something as low as +5 for anything beyond maximum resistances. Secondly you take attribute nodes to level your gems higher and equip better gear. Thirdly the Attribute nodes in Path of exile lead to interesting stuff like +1 to projectiles, +20% minion damage, +10% movement speed, you know stuff that matters to making a unique and interesting build. The Diablo tree looks boring and uninspired and those stats are there to make you a ball of stats not to actually contribute to the build you are making. Fouthly, endgame is more about gear than the skill tree, as you only get so much points. The real endgame progression is the Atlas skill tree which determines what kind of content you will encounter and scales how rewarding that content is. So instead of doing something a hundred times you can do it 5 times and get a mega bunch of currency so you can get gear that will make you uber op. Like honestly that endgame systen in Diablo 4 looks like a placeholder more than an actual system.
Asmongold - when blizzard do something, they do it better than anyone else Also asmongold - gee I don't understand why people have a double standard for blizzard
In POE, the stat and skill tree is a related and integrated system; there is a logic to how stats and the skills they influence work together. Blizzard's much hyped paragon system is a list of nodes in crossword puzzle shape. Uninspired and unintuitive.
PoE has + to stats, yes. However PoE has much more meaningful and impactful nods that you are working towards. D4 on the other hand has a few garbage big nodes that might as well be a part of a unique item at this point. There is literally 0 depth in d4 build your character system. Also, the endgame that they shown is just awfully boring and has no innovations whatsoever
This more an example of blizz just having a really really poor showcase of the paragon board. There is a bit more to it, they just showed is extremely poorly.
@@liamwilson7549 Yeah I tried running a few different frost setups to during the open beta. And it didn't feel too good. Closest I got was running a build utilizing chain lightning with frost nova, blizzard wasn't too bad either. Frozen orb felt absolutely horrible even with the one aspect that made it I think stay in place when it hit something. Would love to run a pretty much pure frost build though
Yes PoE has a few stat increase nodes but they also have a massive fucking passive tree with hundreds of big changes while you can combine crafting, gem links, masteries, atlas tree and a shit ton of other things that give true depth. Diablo says "depth" and all they have is a small skill tree and the paragon tree is almost all stat increase. Huge difference. Diablo will never be on the same depth level as PoE, that's just facts. Doesn't mean Diablo 4 will be bad but it won't have depth.
I played the open beta and realized how much I disliked the top down aspect and click to move. (And they don't have paladins) But I don't go around disliking every diablo video. I understand that the game isn't for me. Other people need to have a similar mindset. Not every game is made specifically for you...
Nah man, if you are PoE shill you feel superior, which means you will go out of your way to shit on any other game that is not close to PoE (especially if it's a Diablo game) to try convincing yourself how superior you are. Even if it means wasting hours on writing comments that no Diablo player will ever give a shit about. You have a wrong mindset, you don't waste your time on pointless, stupid shit :D
@@Haldjas_ This is not about having the right to voice your opinion, it's about how some people's opinion can be ridiculously stupid, just like saying "+5 stat, Diablo bad" and then going to play PoE and praise the game for its passive tree, for example :D
One company will tell you it deep. The other won't say a peep. It's not a double standard to complain that it's being hyped up beyond reality, it's what Acti / Blizz / King do with all their marketing, it's meaningless words to make something look bigger than it is. They do it a lot with Call Of Duty marketing too
The issue with Paragon giving +5 to stats is that this is supposed to be an end game tree that you can access at a later stage in the game. There is no double standard with Path of Exile. Yes PoE also has nodes with + to stats, but they are on the starting tree and serve a meaningful purpose (getting stats to be able to use equipment/skills), they are not forced in the endgame trees options.
Lol exactly. People are comparing this to a 10 year old game that has layers of complex systems. Let d4 come out and expand a little. It’s a live service game ffs.
That paragon skill tree looks like someone smeared poop onto a wall, and all the core stats mixed together that all but insures that there is a single best path for every class to take since there are only 10 useful nodes in that sea of +5 crap. Comparing that mess to POE where the skill tree is clear, deliberate and has 10 times the keystone/actually important nodes is a sad joke. And I'm not a POE fan, I just recognize good and bad design.
I can defend PoE a little bit - you actually want to pick some of those +5dex +5 int +5 str nodes in PoE so you can either wield weapon/armour or a gem. In diablo it's just artificial stats.
My only gripe is that I would like to see some innovation on this formula. PoE had the minor nodes spacing out the greater nodes, and now a lot of RPGs are doing it. The most recent one I played was AC Valhalla when I picked it up last year, it has a lot of +5 stealth, health, archery, etc nodes spacing out the bigger, game changing skill nodes. It's not a bad system, it's just one we've seen a lot recently and I'd like to see something a bit more unique for Diablo.
That's the exact point. They're coping instead of doing something more interesting. It's a brand new game. It's not that hard to understand this. Come on.
People who don't play POE thinking that the PoE tree is mostly travel nodes with stats with the occasional big node to boost damage probably never got to yellow tier maps 😭
The lack of knowledge and the strong opinions they have about it make me angry. Just show how much people like to talk about things they barely understand
@@Axthenon yup, i don't get angry from this, but yes, they probably just watch some build guide video and go, "yep, i know how this game works, anyways, let me talk out of my ass about it"
The difference between +5 Strength in PoE and +5 strength in D4 is that in PoE that +5 strength can impact a wizard-like build by allowing access to certain skills or gear. Whereas in Diablo 4 the game literally tells you. "Barbarians get strength, Sorceress gets Intelligence, Rogues get dex." With only some minor benefits to putting points elsewhere. Time will tell if those side benefits will be of any use, probably not because that's almost never how power scaling works. In other words, the difference is that in D4, it's not a choice.
The difference in standard is that in a PoE showcase they wouldn't showcase the travel nodes while talking about the depth of the system. Personally though my biggest concern is how little is being said about loot, one of if not the most important aspects of an ARPG.
Well... I don't know if it's "better" (I guess that's a matter of taste), but in PoE the +stat nodes are not exactly the same as D4's +stat tiles. PoE has stats reqs for items and skill gems lvls, so it influences which pieces of gear you are able to equip or how much you're able to level up a skill. I'd say it's more nuanced decision in PoE.
I think it's a combination of getting confirmation the bulk of the endgame will be running the same old booring dungeons from the campaign with a couple more key fetches and monsters in them plus the fact the paragon system seems like a bunch of generic +5 to a stat stuff.
It's not double standards, its about pointing out the flaws in the statement "alot more depth" then progressing to show +5 str, int & dexterity. That is not Depth. This has nothing to do with other games having the same systems, the problem is the claim "Depth" while providing the complete opposite.
My guy... , Path of Exile are +10, not +5. The stats in Path of Exile are as a base, more interesting and more powerful. In PoE 10 strength is 5 life and 2% melee phys damage, and you can also build around strength, modifiers, and bonuses based on strength (or whatever stat you want). In Diablo 4, 10 mainstat is 1% damage and a small other bonus, which varies class to class. In Path of Exile, these are referred to travel nodes, they are not the "depth" of the passive tree. Roughly 40-60% of your tree are these basic nodes, depending on your build some more some less. The passive in PoE, as you know, are one layer of the multi faceted system of building. It's not just "passive tree" it's also masteries, clusters, notables, keystone, compounded on with your gear/itemization, ascendancy, *and* your skill gems. Compared to Diablo 4 where you have +5 stat, +9% resist, and then one legendary glyph per board, with 3-5 boards. Your buuld is dictated by your Aspect on your gear that you buuld around, and 5hats pretty much it. The legendary Glyphs are akin to a small notable in PoE, but less interesting from what I've seen. There is no comparison, it's like comparing an orange to a pizza. Just totally different entirely.
I would take any of the extensions that measure dislikes with a level of skepticism. Feel free to correct me if I am misunderstanding, but it calculates dislikes based on data from the users who’ve installed said extension, which I imagine are far more likely to use the dislike button compared to viewers as a whole. The sample is skewed heavily towards users who use dislikes (either because they find the feature genuinely useful, or are just wanting to show big dislike numbers on things they hate)
@@Axthenon the ratio would be off, though. My understanding is it is taking the data from the users using the extension and applying it to estimate the total dislikes, I.e. if a video has 1,000 views, 100 of which use a dislike tracking extension and 90 of those users disliked the video it would extrapolate that 90% of users disliked the video and so it has 900 “dislikes” But that isn’t likely true, since those with the extension are the most likely to use dislikes in the first place. If I am misunderstanding feel free to correct me, like if the extension doesn’t do estimations and the dislike number is the actual number of users with the extension who disliked, not the estimate based on the sample, then the exact opposite of my assumption is true. Or if they use a more sophisticated modeling to account for the bias, which is entirely possible.
It's because blizzard says they're doing something new and innovative, they hype and hype themselves up and then show the same stuff they have been doing again.
Blizzard absolutely despises anything that changes the 'game' or builds 'meaningfully' because they operate on max efficiency content and do NOT want to waste time balancing things, or if they do, something they can crunch down to a percentage number and call it a day. I'd temper expectations that the 'meaningful' nodes aren't just 5% more damage under X circumstance times 2.
The paragon system is ripped from PoE yet even more uninspired than simply copying their systems 1:1. The dungeons with affixes is ripped from WoW's Mythic+. The PvP loot/exfiltrate has been done, no doubt done better, by Division 2, Escape from Tarkov etc and no info given on how PvP is going to work with hardcore. I'm less excited for Diablo 4's endgame after that video than I was when playing the beta for the first time. The only thing that interests me is the potential affixes, and the one they chose to feature was just recycling mobs that aren't assigned to spawn in this procedurally generated dungeon's tileset. Worse, this was apparently their favourite, which doesn't bode well for the rest of them. Meh.
You know.. if it's not good, show your frustration, but if it's not that bad, spare the company your stupidity and free hate. Sooner or later the franchise will simply die, because like everyone says: "enough is enough". Blizzard will just give up. No more Diablo games, not because you didn't like it, but because you keep complaining about anything and everything. Disliking something means at least: "This has 60% things I don't like and 40% I like". You're just helping those who just don't give a damn about Diablo or you're riding the "popular opinion", without even touching the game.
path of exile passive tree is like ~10 years ahead on customization and build variety, also you dont need to reach max level to start spending points in it
![Chino Pacas - Modo Capone (with Drake & Fuerza Regida) [Video Oficial]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/zjv8TQ0gBkg/mqdefault.jpg)
The issue is that they show the "+5 boost" but not the big game changing nodes that are actually important
exactly lmao
Maybe I want to find out myself and they dont spoiler everything? lol
@@T0mT4yl0r or maybe there aren't, lmao.
You start from the center and the nodes are at every direction. Why the hell can’t i get nodes located at one location so that I can at least compare them side by side and know what am i aiming for rather than watching a RUclips video to get what build are meta and other BS.
PS: I never got into POE because of their bad loot drop optimization for PlayStation.
@@Contractor48 poe is teh suk on consoles. saying it's bad on consoles is like comparing traban vs porsche
"keep your expectations low and you will never be disappointed" - Kratos
MJ
Bro this is my life motto since like age 10 xD
@@naxergss2625 I'm more concerned why you think trolling is a day job
Rip 80 bucks. I knew it.
never buy another game from a woke corporation
The difference between PoE and D4 is that GGG don't describe +5 stats as "deep".
If you say something offers more depth, show the nodes that actually offer depth.
But in the end it's true that we don't know even though they could've shown us something more substantial. Typically when you try to sell something, you show the good, not the bad.
if that's the good in their mind i have bad news for you
You know. In your heart you know. It's going to be exactly as mundane as that voice of experience is telling you.
I'll play devil's advocate here and say it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. if they show it, people will complain that it's a spoiler or that the nodes they show are underwhelming, if they don't show it, people will complain that they aren't showing the "good" nodes. I personally think they should have revealed at least a couple of interesting nodes to give people something else to ruminate about other than "+ 5 to stat" that they ended up "teasing".
+5% might be "deep" if you can get your numbers high enough but if your "main" stat is just around a thousand thats next to worthless too just like +5
id expect the numbers would need to be +30% - 50% to really be worth an investment
@@ToyokaX They have to show us what we are expected to have in the endgame if they want us to pay 70$ for the game.
Disagree with asmon's point, PoE has many +10 stat on the tree, yes, but the gear actually REQUIRES stats to be used(so pathing into some dex nodes as a "wizard" is a way to equip armor that requires dex), which is NOT a "limitation" in d4, also this is supposed to be an endgame system and i dont think they've shown a SINGLE gamechanging paragon node, at the bare minimum its a marketing fail, at worse, its just paragon levels but on a tabletop format instead of an Excel Table
Rare L for Asmon. He completely missed why people were disappointed.
Exactly, I wish they would add more outdated and tedious features like managing your stats just to wear equipment i LOVED that in D2 too, so amazing, while we are at it why make it so easy to use potions? I hate this, i want to manage my potions in my crowded and limited inventory and run back to the shop every 10 seconds, man these are the top features that make these games GOOD!
@@danielmarko3258 after trying out d4 open beta and then playing D2R, it does show that old "classic" mechanics have indeed aged badly. Limited inventory requiring to TP every 2min, being punished (for not following a guide) by not being able to respec on the fly when you cant know in advance that you'd need certain stats to equip a new piece of gear you just dropped, having to carry 16 potions, etc.
I'm so happy a lot of things are streamlined and added QOL.
@@vindictiv6880 ... people love those system because you,re supposed to LEARN while playing. Making another character with the knowledge you acquired while failing your first character is what drive people. These games are meant to be replayed a lot. Making mistakes and learning is how you enjoy those games.
You're the reason people with more than 2 brain cells can't have good things.
We already know there are things in the game that will require you to have a certain amount of stats. So your point is kinda non-existent?
It's not about D4 having those nodes, it's about showing them in the trailer when they talk about game changing nodes and abilities in the paragon system.
No its not about the trailer, this double standard towards blizzard is very real. There is years of loud long moaning to prove that. Whatever they do they always get shit. Unpleasable 'fan'base. Sometimes warranted and sometimes absolutely unfounded crying.
@@H4rd5tyl3 That's not what it is for me. The official trailer looks like a fan-made version of the trailer specifically made to poke fun of the "meaningful choice". It's weird.
@@H4rd5tyl3 what did they do for good since 2016?
@@H4rd5tyl3 Why would Blizzard would even deserve a fanbase, it's a terrible company.
@H4rd5tyl3 I could care less about the lore or history about the double standard, this was a showcase of the paragon system and it was meh. That's the fact like it or not.
The problem isn't with the double Standard, Path of Exile devs will never do something as stupid as making a video about "End-game" and then highlight the +10 attributes filler nodes, if blizzard think these are the best thing they have to offer right now then may God help us....
Yes POE has a lot of pathing (flat attribute) nodes, but from what they showed it seems like 70% of the paragon board is attribute nodes and then the remaining 30% are akin to small passive nodes in POE. POE as asmon clearly knows also has on top of that; notables, keystones, masteries, and jewel sockets (which can then fit cluster jewels for more customization).
Poe has also been in development for much longer. I love when people compare apples to oranges
@@meechumm3186 players don't care abt that. They will compare different games and go for what suits them best. Stop being an idiot
And you can add more trees with cluster jewels
Especially because if you just look at it % wise you legit have like 15% pathing nodes which are attributes and the rest do more or something different(Accurate number actually counted its 187 attribute nodes 70% of which youd never even be near of on most builds). In poe you basically have 3 big circles of attribute nodes with connections to the middle of the tree and thats it, everything else is unique and adjusted to whatever spot you are in the tree. If you wanna look at it another way, every single attribute node with very few exceptions is connected to roundabout 10 different passive nodes of which 2 are notables( and then you have all keystones next to attribute nodes aswell.) Its mindboggling how they think this has anything to do with depth and isnt anything more than pure laziness.
@@meechumm3186 and? Thats even less of an excuse. Blizzard can just copy that. Your argument is nonsense. And even IF it had any validty, then the reactions are on point. You want better reactions? Then wait for the development to go on longer. In 3 years, the reactions might change.
Such a stupid stance you have.....
I mean the number of +5 main stats in D4 and PoE is different. D4 is like replacing the whole PoE tree with +5 stats, then sprinkle ~10 meaningful passives in random locations on the tree.
Even in the showcase, I’m pretty sure they showed 1 special passive.
You waste majority of your points in POE for bullshit travel nodes
Diablo 3 has the best customization. Why would they choose POE crap over their own excellent skill system?
Exactly. In PoE they have attribute nodes, yes. But they are just side-nodes on the way to completely game changing nodes. It just adds a lil extra layer of planning out. Nobody in PoE gets an endorphine kick from hitting a +5 STR node lmao... I think we all know why they dont show the game changer nodes...
@@wujekstalin1 and even then, in POE are builds that make use of stats (stat stackers) and long term travels in the tree (support by stat stacking jewels)
Exactly. I also wanted to add that in PoE items and skills have attribute requirements which can be pretty tricky to fulfill in many cases, so str/dex/int nodes aren't useless at all. Additionally, there are whole viable and strong builds based on stacking them as high as possible.
So, a pretty trash take from Asmon. There are no double standards. It's just that the paragon tree seems awfully bland and boring from what they've shown us until now.
It's pretty awesome for GGG that the game franchise they copied is now copying them poorly.
That's a crazy arc for what was a couple of guys making a game in their garage.
Last Epoch is doing what PoE was doing 10 years ago. It's better than D4 and POE imo and not even launched yet
@@Kingof4pples "not even launched yet" while technically true, the game is basically launched at this point. Its gonna be in the next few big updates. Still a great game though. POE was ASS when it first hit steam. Objectively worse than D2, and D3 was more fun when it launched. I think LE is probably the best of the bunch as far as casual experience. POE / POE2 will probably be the best of the bunch as far as actual depth, content, and diversity. My hope is that d4 is just a slightly less accessible version of LE. We will see how they handle it though.
@@Kingof4pples nahhhh, not even close of what is poe or what people that play poe want in an arpg.
@@Eilanzer I actually hope it becomes atleast as good/popular if not better than POE. Same with D4. It forces all 3 games to make great content so they don't fall behind & beat the other 2 which is a good thing for us players. I'd rather have 3 games with great content than 2 dead games and 1 game with shit new content since there is no competition
your mind setap is "poor" if you want every game to be the same and for the same target. Diablo is casual hns and poe is more like calc simulator that takes more than playing game with brainless zooming and all gameplay comes f from calculations and creating builds where in diablo you just sit with friends, drops items, item is better and that's all.
stop being a snow flake and egocentrical. For many Diablo 4 is better and this is due to other expectations and these people are not worse - they are different and thinking about it's worse - makes only you weak and worse.
Asmon everytime someone else compares D4 to PoE -> "But it's not trying to be PoE, it's own game, and that's good. We shouldn't compare the two"
Asmon whenever he sees something in D4 that PoE has -> "Oh, but PoE does this and no one complains"
The times he says not to compare is when they start saying but Poe has this feature why not diablo. Wheat he is saying here is people are upset about the paragon boards but praise Poe for the exact same thing.
@@theonetruespades5127 But it's not the same thing.
Every single skill and item in PoE have stat requirements. Every build have minimum amount of attributes that is needed to even be playable, and that's why PoE have smaller attribute nodes leading to bigger nodes that will define your build in the end.
DIablo 4 have neither of these systems in place when it comes to attribute requirements. Attributes are just divided into more defense/damage, and that's why the system works for PoE, and not D4.
@@Human000001 see there you go rather than waiting and seeing how it actually works you compare a game that hasn’t been released to one that’s had more than enough time to create a good suitable way to interact with players in the end game. You gotta wait homie and if it’s not your cup of tea then Poe is still there for you to love and hold. Diablo having a few generic slots with plus 5 here plus 5 there leading to legendary slots which they already talked about and socketed slots which they also talked about previously, you took a clip of however many seconds with a couple base descriptors and created a opinion without actually seeing how it interacts with the world truly. If it bugs you that much then no issue like asmon said before do not buy it wait a few years and see lol like relax dude your getting perpetually angry for no reason.
@@theonetruespades5127 lol, don't care, I'm just gonna play D4 for the campaign, and go back to PoE.
@@theonetruespades5127 First of all, I'm not angry, thats you.
Secondly, I've never said that I prefer PoE's system over D4. I'm just pointing out the facts, and compare to the information that's been given to us.
You're the one that's getting emotional, while trying to defend a game that you haven't seen everything of yet either.
And for all we know it would be a lot worse than what we've seen. You're just coming of as someone who will defend an unreleased game to the bone as soon as you think someone views it in a negative way.
The Devotion Tree for Grim Dawn seems way more interesting then this. With that you build a map of constellations and get extra abilities from completing a constellation that you can assign to trigger from the abilities you already have from the regular talent tree. This means that the Devotion you go for a build that channels one ability most of the time is going to look totally different from a character that wants to cast 5 or more different spells in a rotation or a shield based character that wants to trigger devotion abilities from blocking.
thats why ill be sticking to grim dawn (: blizzard can't do anything right, d4 will be good in 2035
Grim Dawn is the best arpg
People are like "I hope D4 will be middleground between poe and D3 🤤"
*FOOLS!* Grim Dawn has been doing that for a decade now, and trusting BLizzard "talent" to do it is folly at best
@@laszloneumann500only thing is that grim dawns combat sucks juicy dick. All of the rest is god tier, but the thing you spend the most time doing feels like trash.
@@laszloneumann500only thing is that grim dawns combat sucks juicy dick. All of the rest is god tier, but the thing you spend the most time doing feels like trash.
it is indeed odd how people have a completely different standard to a AAA company that charges $100+ for their game, then they do for an indie dev that releases a free to play game with more content for endgame... it is indeed odd
Except poe doesn't even do it like this. Your attributes come from gear and the passive tree. Some builds center around stacking attributes. But poe has so many other stats that can be mixed in ways the developers never planned that can absolutely break the game.
With diablo, blizzard intentionally controls everything. You like a certain skill? Good. Hunt for the 3-5 items that are made for that specific skill and nothing else unless you want to be gimped.
Poe's ingenuity lies in the fact that the passive tree can spawn literally thousands of builds. Diablo's paragon tree just makes your numbers go higher with the playstyle you already established. Yawn.
That and asmon takes the +5 out of context. They say more depth and then show that. I don't think poe promised "more depth" and then showed the +5's
0iq take
In game systems arent influenced by the amount of money a company make/possess. Things like graphics, audio, size are
that lvl25 beta of just act 1 is a lot better than the entire POE questline and lore.
all POE has is its endgame. other parts are boring.
and that endgame is just spreadsheets.
what the fuckkkkkkk lmao
Poe has connecting nodes to those juicy nice clusters all over the board. This seems like connecting nodes to 10% damage. And so far, there doesnt seem any reason to do any stat stacking.
As far as i know, paragon board's legendary nodes + glyphs are more or less the same ? That's literally the problem, PoE shills talking shit about "+5" nodes and thinking that it's all there is to this system in Diablo while it's far from the truth.
It's Blizzard's fault not showcasing them though.
Dext on a barb grants extra critical hit chance. INT on a sorc grants extra skill damage and lucky hit chance, I believe. Or willpower grants extra overpower damage. There are reasons to stat stack, and I imagine most people will bolt for those legendary nodes, but there is a good reason to stat stack.
@@DoctorStrange01 theres 1 legendary node per board no? Sure we all expect the game to be not as complicated as PoE, and sure Diablo 4 has not showed everything yet. It just feels like it's gonna get stale fast with what choices we have, cause it feels like ( obviously ill take X cause I need it for my build ). They should make it at least that every boards as many orange nodes that are juicy so you have to decide which one you get.
@@____GoMeZ____ Yes, so on a sorc you will take ints and whatever nodes are on the way to the orange ones, thats about it, no real thinking behind it.
@@Oxmosh They cant do though. If you create too many combinations of skills, then players can use combinations of skills that werent tested or intended. D4 is like D3, its all about recreating a pre-planned build that Blizzard made then parsed out over 10 different items for you to grind. You dont make builds, you play their builds
The thing Asmon needs to understand here is how Blizzard marketed it. People KNOW that PoE has all these amazing nodes to go for in the tree. But Blizzard just lightly mentions some impactful tree and then shows almost entirely stat-based nodes. They made ZERO effort to showcase all the meaningful nodes.
Yeah the team behind this showcase needs to honestly be fired lmao, this was really sad and pathetic. I really enjoyed the D4 beta and will be playing the game on release. But this showcase was god awful. Not just about what they showed either, everyone that talked just seemed like they had no enthusiasm for what they where talking about. I honestly do not blame people one bit for being disappointed.
in POE 5 of those +10 str/dex/int nodes lead to a big node that completely defines or breaks your build (i.e CI, Vaal pact etc.)
in D4 18 of those +5 nodes lead to a bigger node that reads "critical strikes in wolf form restore 2 spirit" / 30 nodes for "Hitting a stunned enemy restores 10 mana"
It's not "double standards", it's holding blizzard to ANY standards and unfortunately their own standards are lower than the floorboards
We HAVE the build calculator, we can SEE the paragon boards and they add exactly 0% depth to the already shallow "skill tree"
I guess he is trolling. i mean he played a lot of PoE he must know.
"COMPLETELY DEFINES", sure, lets not pretend you are not stacking life and resist for another RF build.
@@sensaiko I guess you've never played an omni build in poe.
@@ElSabio159 he's just not looked at the D4 build planner we have or is huffing copium hoping 1 month from now they'd completely redo the paragon board to make it interesting
In PoE you have stat requirements. You can build around stacking specific stats. Randomly investing points into strength on marauder doesn't make sense if you won't use items that scale with the stat itself. In D4 it's just "main stat = increased damage". It doesn't compare at all, what is he talking about.
I think Asmon has a lot of misunderstandings of why certain things are good in PoE and not good in Diablo 3. PoE's design as a whole makes it to where attributes are more needed for your character than in the latest Diablo games. There are very few characters builds in PoE that don't need at least about 100 of each stat for various gear and skill requirements. Additionally you can build characters entirely around stacking particular attributes to get special bonuses. In Diablo 4, there are no attribute requirements for most things in the game, and if you look at your character sheet, the actual thing that your character gets per point of attribute is so small that +5 is not going to make you feel anything.
You can say that PoE having attribute requirements for gear and skills are bad, but I feel like Diablo 3 eliminated many of the things that went into building a character and replaced it with bunch of offensive stats that you just try to get more of and you never have to do anything to balance your character and make it work. That is MMO-esque character progression in a nutshell. So PoE may have attributes, and accuracy, and similar systems but all of these things add up to making building your character interesting. It doesn't feel good when your character progression is boiled down to something as simple as higher number than previous equals better. Non-linear gear progression, and losing certain stats to gain other stats is a core principal of ARPG design and what differentiated the from other types of RPGs, and if you remove that you are left with an experience that only appeals long term to people who have no prior experience with the genre.
PoE also has much more interesting ratio of travel/notable notes. What little we can see in the video indicates that there are a ton of "travel" style nodes and very few "notable" nodes to do a direct PoE comparison. I would actually argue that, from the video, it looks like the paragon board is nothing more than a blend of the Diablo 3 paragon system, and the Diablo 3 legendary gem system, combined and organized into a board to make it look like a system that is more diverse than Diablo 3's.
Asmon doesnt have clue
"Non-linear gear progression, and losing certain stats to gain other stats is a core principal of ARPG design and what differentiated the from other types of RPGs" says who? You can't just make things up, my friend.
So you think in POE you can build characters around attribute stacking but you know for certain from playing to level 25 and not touching the paragon board or seeing all the legendary affixes or seeing all the uniques that attribute stacking is not viable in D4? Maybe you should reassess your own understandings of what you think you know.
@@sensaiko then tell me how PoE became the top ARPG on the market while D3 crumbled to nothing
@@Mark-ru7kc let me get ahead of the disappointment you're about to face with Diablo 4: if they had something promising to show us, they would have by now. Instead they have shown us almost nothing new over the last couple years.
Problem is in POE the attribute nodes are defined by the side of the tree they are on and also guide your choice in gear and skill gems. Not only do attributes not matter in D4 except for damage, but the tree shown in the video has a completely arbitrary litter of different attributes next to each other with no choices at all. It's not even remotely comparable.
They are there as filler. The cost to travel to the game defining passive clusters is that you only get attributes. Cost benefit analysis is required. You don't get all the good nodes for "free".
@@LeNoLi. The intent is obvious, but the execution and presentation is pretty bad. The fact that the stats you get are mixed and follow no real pattern, and you have barely any choice moving through 1 square wide pathways, makes it really uninteresting. The main mechanic seems to be flipping the whole tree around and connecting new ones, but the fact that this hasn't been demonstrated in any meaningful capacity makes me question if it's even finished.
@@LeNoLi.
>PoE attribute nodes guide choice in gear and skill gems
>"They are there as filler."
u wot?
Those stat points in PoE are NEEDED. Your skill gems need specific stat and if you don't have enough of one stat you can't upgrade it. I have experienced this and because of that I needed to take extra stat points from the skill tree.
Diablo 4 doesn't have this kind of a system.
Correct. Stats are more interesting in Poe. Sometimes you want a strength or dex node when you’re an int class to equip certain gear or gems.
if they're keeping the original paragon system they were working on then they do have that system. some of the rare and legendary nodes had stat requirements.
Can't be further from the truth. There are rare and legendary paragon nodes in the board that only activate when certain stat breakpoints are met. Countless other streamers showed such nodes in their review videos.
For me nothing will top Grim Dawn's constellations system. It's so cool, it helps organize the bonuses into a way that makes sense intuitively instead of being a mass of icons and balls. It also makes you feel like you're tapping into the power of these constellations instead of just randomly clicking on an excel spreadsheet to get more power.
At this point in poe even most minor notables have at least something interesting to them
The "+5 dex" points in poe are literally called travel points aka wasted points to travel through the tree rather than "adds a lot of depth" points
Not really most are wasted on travel nodes
@@maxpowers4436 I want to clarify my choice of words: notables are the nodes you get that come every few points/in their clusters. Between nodes and keystones. They're things like "projectiles deal more damage as they travel" or "gain 3% of max life as max energy shield" etc etc
Most of these are not only at least marginally interesting, but they also are usually immediately followed by a mastery, which provides many interesting options
@@maxpowers4436 Then you are shitty builder if majority of your passives goes to travel nodes or you are playing stat stacking, or you don't know simply wtf you are talking about.
@@prosamis For attribute stackers and for gear requirements they can be very important though.
@@kevinprengemann7456 of course. They're just generally "seen" as wasted in comparison. But yes, also thanks to the elaborate systems when it comes to gearing, even basic stats are important to hit thresholds
Here's why people have a different standard for blizzard. It's because they aren't the first to do it in this space but they always act like they are. And I'll walk you through this line of thinking. PoE has +5 strength nodes, now that is their thing, they are not the first to add it, and I'm sure they won't be the last. HOWEVER, they are also not claiming that it's new an improved customization, and there's the issue.
Blizzard does this thing constantly where they talk themselves up about all the "great new things and customizations" they do. However when it comes to the reality of what they actually did, all they did was copy and paste other games. None of it is new, none of it is special or in any way different than the other aRPGs that have done it.
So yea, Blizzard gets review bombed, because they deserve it.
In POE you can DO THINGS with attributes (attribute stacking, attribute conversion, changing what the attribute does, etc.). This just gives you attributes for... a slight increase in damage? That's terrible.
Blizzard forgot to steal such mechanic from another game, will be surely implemented in future D4 dlc :)
Your forgetting one big thing. Yes POE does have +5 nodes but it also has small and large milestone which are a big deal
That's obvious and it work the same way with Diablo. Yet people jump the gun and criticize them just for being Blizzard.
So does Diablo 4. The full paragon boards for Diablo 4 already leaked out ages ago from the closed alphas and betas where endgame play was possible unlike the open beta weekend. Paragon boards seem to have color coding for node types, grays are the small stat increases, blue are the larger stat increases, yellow are small milestones, red are glyph sockets, and orange are big milestones. Each class has a basic starting paragon board that is only grays, blues, 4 yellows, and then one red glyph socket. Then you get a choice for your 2nd paragon board, for instance Druid has 8, each focused on a different build type, those 8 optional 2nd paragon boards are Thunderstruck, Earthen Devastation, Survival Instincts, Lust for Carnage, Heightened Malice, Inner Beast, Constricting Tendrils, and Ancestral Guidance. Each of the 8 optional 2nd paragon boards has 6 yellow small milestone skills, 1 red glyph socket, and 1 orange large milestone skill.
It seems to be the same here. You can see in the video the Cheap shot legendary node
Bad take from asmon there, of course people are gonna criticize diablo and not poe, since poe is f2p but diablo is charging you 70 to a 100 for an average game.
And there's a lot of better things to get in the poe one. Here pretty much they're saying the stats is an "in-depth" mechanic.
I mean at least the +5 stat nodes in POE actually mean something.
It's not a double standard. I don't even play PoE but in that game you have a ton of builds even if some passives in the skill tree travel nodes are + stats (and mind you, stats in PoE actually have a lot of depth and are super important to enable gear/gems/builds). Diablo 4 has none of that and their stats system has 0 depth, so of course people were expecting a LOT more.
I mean, even Last Epoch at level 25 already has 10x more customization than D4.... hell, even Grim Dawn (which is a game I didn't enjoy much) allowed for great customization with combined class trees + gear + relics + devotions. Might as well add Titan Quest in there which is a game from 2006. TQ still has 20x more build diversity than this lmaooo.
This is depressing but not surprising at all. Oh and please don't try to justify it by saying "it's designed for casuals". Last Epoch is easy to understand, every build is viable, there's a TON of builds, lots of choice and it's incredibly casual friendly as well. Just because it's designed for casuals it doesn't mean it has to be braindead when it comes to choice. D4 seems to be more like a Hack and Slash game with some RPG elements, rather than an actual ARPG.
The D4 paragon system seems substantially worse than what Blizzard did in D3. Paragon points in D3 were giving me more stats that I already wanted, like move speed or resource cost reduction. Even though any single point was incremental, I was still getting the same stats I was targeting on my gear and in some cases, like the move speed cap, it allowed me to flex stats off of my gear and into my paragon points. The fact that PoE uses a similar system doesn't seem very relevant as to whether the system is good.
The problem is that you eventually capped them. As season went they became less and less meaningfull
correct. We have a different expectation for Blizzard because somewhere in our heart of hearts, we still expect better from them.
The full game isn't even out lmao
@@LegendaryBrandon1 that's the part that gets me man. Nobody hates blizzard more than blizzard fans, and that was before they started failing expectations. I've seen enough of diablo 4 to be interested, it's not even out, i can't fully form an opinion. But so many vids out like it's a four year old game lol. I get blizzards rep is bad but some people are extremely irrational. My favorite was probably that "the gear is generic garbage" video. The cap is 100 and your claiming that off of the BETA 25 cap. Get real 😂
@@FloridaGoth The paragon boards were leaked way back, people aren't going off of a 25 beta. Get real.
@@Nahnono dude, you completely skipped over my point. The video i reference is specific to the gear being generic. Now on to paragon, blizzard has both said not everything has been revealed or leaked and the game will change and adapt over time. Could it be lip service? Sure, a lot of devs do that. You don't want diablo 4? That's fine. But the general internet blowback is a tad excessive. Get real yourself my guy
@@LegendaryBrandon1 what does it not being out yet have to do with Blizz's track record of disappointment?
The ratio of interesting to boring nodes in POE is much higher. In Blizzard's literal advertisement of the paragon board to us, 95% of the nodes they showed are boring stat nodes. Either the paragon board doesn't have a lot of interesting nodes or Blizzard is just incompetent in showing how interesting it is. I think people are absolutely right to call it out.
I don't think the amount matters too much, just if it's well executed and you have to make meaningful choices.
I agree somewhat but the +5 in poe leads to a whole mini tree of passive with unique stat boosts. And only sometimes will you ever need to hit +5, 5 times in a row to get where you want to go. In diablo (its appears) to be +5 dex for a whole row, get one blue node, then do another row of +5, get a rate node, repeat til you get a legendary. It doesn't feel diverse and no its DOESNT need to be as diverse as poe but a little more would be good imo
To be fair it does also depend on how fast progression is on that Pee board.
And I claim that it should be as diverse as PoE. Yes you can claim that PoE is unplayable for casuals, and for me thats fucking great news, fuck casuals and people who do not care about the game.
Game should be made for long staying hardcore fans of particular genre of game, because it is them who are keeping game alive both financially and socially.
If they plan to make their game so fucking shallow that there will be literally no diversity in builds like in D3, then their game will die very fast.
But who knows, maybe Blizzard is planning on destroying D4 completely? Because so far from what I've seen, it looks like they really do.
Dont wanna complain but seeing this makes me realize how good of a game GGG have managed to create. Just the skill gems with their tags alone give so many posibilities.
You have to have a master's degree in semantics to understand all of the different word definitions that GGG uses though. Increased vs. more, damage to hits vs damage to spells vs. damage to attacks, etc. GGG uses very precise language to convey what an item effect does but that also makes it extremely complicated as a new player (and even experienced players) learning what effect an item or talent actually has on your character/build.
I also doubt many new players actually create their own builds. Most just follow a video with items they most likely do not have unless they rmt.
those possibilities don't lead to a lot though
@@kenjikodai Yes they do unless you're trying to do ultra end game content in HC where only very very few players manage to kill Uber bosses.
Because in PoE +10 Strength has more value than just a timid stat increase. It also matters for getting gem requirements, and allowing them to be upgraded. If you combine 2+ attributes, it's quite possible that you may come short on one, but need more, so these simple +10 Strength nodes become significant.
Are POE players really so starved for content that they invade Diablo videos just to complain how it's not as good as POE?
I feel like another thing he failed to mention was that paragon levels imply your character is level capped. So in POE you get the +stat nodes right at the beginning of your playthough while in D4 this is the reward for hitting cap and continuing to play.
It unlocks at level 50.
Idk if level cap is the term I'd use for it. You begin getting paragon points at lvl 50 through to lv 100. 100 is level cap not 50
Thanks for the correction 👌
All I remember is not too long ago blizzard revealing the skill tree and it was insane. Literally a tree that branches off in a hundred ways and now we are left with a diagonal line to make us feel like we are making a choice when we really aren’t. They really need to focus more what made d2 successful and the negative feedback of d3 instead but I’m afraid what we’re going to be left with is a jumbled pile of mess unfit for release
What would you say made diablo 2 successful? The fact is I keep seeing this comment but I don't think the people using it really know.
POE isn't a 70 dollar game
No bit if you really want to commit to it you have to buy the stash tabs , if you get them all you are way over 70 euro. And thats only stash tabs. If you want your character to not look like shiy you are way above 150 euro. Now which is bettet.
@@MarQQuiSsee Everything you described are optional. The entry fee for Diablo is 70 straight up. You play an hour it's 70 dollars. PoE entry fee is 0. If I play an hour or 100 hours it's still 0. I have the choice to pay for the convenience or cosmetics. For that I have a higher expectation because Diablo is asking for 70 dollars straight up.
0:56
It's not double standard tho.
PoE is free, while D4 costs $70
As Internet Historian said "Price tag. Sets. Expectations"
For a $0 game I have no expectations but for a $70 I expect AAA standards.
My thoughts exactly.
I think the difference between PoE and Diablo is complexity though. PoE doesn't have hard-locked classes so even those basic nodes can add a lot more depth. Like my RF Juggernaut build going for intelligence. That doesn't happen in Diablo so little stat nodes offer 0 depth, every class is gonna build their one specific attribute for the most part.
Did you hit 100 because it's just jug, necro and elementist
The have more class's that can't make it to 100 than can. Fundamental flaw in poe.
@@Kayareswon are you joking? You have people hitting 100 on every single ascendancy in Hardcore SSf, every single league. Please dont speak about a game you clearly know nothing about
@@Kayareswon pretty much shows u dont play the game and just talk out of your ass. I gotta say its pretty funny
@@masterslayerable 6% of all the community hit 100. What a joke
@@Ivight you know why the devs are fixing the linking system because it's trash.
Poe players like everything about thr game because forgoing QoL is somehow cool.
is asmon forgetting that D3 paragon is just +5 mainstat after level 800? (which is very easy to reach for those who dont know)
The problem with these stats in diablo is that in Poe these stats are required for some build enabling skills/uniques which does not seem the case with Diablo.
However, the main positive thing is that you have many attribute stacking builds/archetypes in Poe so they are not that dead of a stat, actually these small traveling points make much sense in these builds.
Some of the nodes need a certain amount of stats to get the benefit, so it exists.
@@soulreaver6300 great, at least something)
Also, those stat increases look much more common on that Diablo board. And I doubt D4 will have a strength/dex/int stacking build like POE does.
Know why people are irked by the stat nodes here and not in PoE? Because PoE doesn't show off these nodes as "innovative and build-defining" during their showcases. Just compare this vid with the one for the new PoE league, and GGG aren't even near as big as Blizzard.
If PoE's passive tree and D4's paragon board were actually similar then I wouldn't be struggling to squeeze 111 dex on my Jugg.
have people played diablo before? every game ends with you doing the same thing over and over.
asmongold doesnt understand the double standard thing... well its simple, POE doesnt market that +5 stat as an 'indepth feature'. When you need to boast/show something as mediocre as that in your FEATURED video, says a lot about what is there to be offered...
Again, let copers cope.
Yeah I agree. But again, I still don't have an issue with that part of the endgame. I think the +5 nodes thing is fine.
This dude is like the ambassador of all normie takes
Blizz restrict it more, people want more from Blizz pretty simple.
PoE's skill tree has a lot of interesting notables and keystones connected by +5 stat nodes. D4 looks to just have +5 stat nodes and probably some like "+10% damage" nodes or whatever. The paragon board is meant to be the endgame thing to sink your teeth into, since everything else in D4 looks pretty simple.
Take a look into the legendary nodes, they aren't remedial.
The endgame to sink your teeth into isn't the paragon system as it unlocks at level 50 and caps at level 100. This is a mid game system that progresses and finishes just as you reach true endgame.
Helltides, Nightmare dungeons, PvP and World Bosses are more akin to what the endgame chase is.
too may nodes for not that big of a gameplay change, plus the skill gem system is ass
if poe does a trailer and talks about juicy nodes they dont show a +5 travelling node, that is the difference
Having played both D2 and D3 at launch, I have zero confidence in D4 launching with a good endgame.
I think partially its due to the horrendous scaling of what "5 dex, int, or str" actually means in-game. With numbers like that at endgame, youll feel 0 impact of those nodes, whereas, stacking those same nodes in PoE would actually create a meaningful difference in strength of the character
And You know that there is no impact, because you have played whole game?
@@filiponi81 You don't need to play the whole game to see how stats interact with your character. You could already see that in the beta. +5 of one stat increases a modifier by a certain amount. The calculation won't change no matter what level you have.
@@MidBoss2998 Thanks for clarifying for me
i think problem is that 85% of the board is just plus to stats. the other 15 is like % dmg to X skill. At least with PoE you have a lot of nodes that add entire new ways to play the game, skills ext.
I actually think that's a decent ratio, as long as the game provides meaningful choices.
You can't compare PoE and Diablo 4. PoE has an entirely different skill, build, and gearing system. PoE has attribute stacking to meet gear and skill requirements AND builds focused entirely off of stacking. PoE also has notables, cluster jewels, keystones, and mastery nodes. You also have to plan your build from level 1 in PoE with its skill tree where in Diablo 4 Paragon Points come into the scene at level 50.
I will play diablo after release, cause i want to see how it perform. I will probably wait the first update post launch. To mind, it’s not as simple as +5/+10 carac when we compare this skill tree with the poe skill tree. The fact that you can make some awesome build, with a ton of synergy is the point. When I look at the actual way to play some classes in D4, I’m a bit disappointed by what we can read in this video. For example, Necro seems to have very few spécialisation. In a same time, I’m aware about the legendary and how they could change my opinion. We will see …
Funny fact Poe is free to play and diablo costs minimum 70$ so you actually pay maybe for worse experience :)
*_It’ll (inhales) be a (inhales) good game (inhales), guys (long inhale)._*
Played D3 for like 200 hrs and looks like i will get even more from D4. So yes, Good game.
The Beta was amazing.
PoE has traveling nodes with + stats, but it leads to a massive choice of various other upgrades to choose from, all of which can be strong in their own way. This enables player choice based on play style. Diablo 4 will be + stats for basically every node, then on a rare occasion get something else extremely generic like + res. The boards just looks like a weird cluster fuck and not really a true tree with pathing options. It will inevitably lead to one specific build for each class as people optimize the best stat gain to points ratio. It's not really a bad thing though, definitely a step in the right direction. I think this is 10x better than the previous paragon system and actually gives something to work towards. I think over time, with refinement, it will be excellent. People forget how long PoE has had to design/redesign their system. And people hold Blizzard to a different standard because they absolutely should. They have more time and money in the industry than practically anyone else and they should put out nothing less than perfection. They should be ashamed if putting out games that perform worse than another with 1/100 of their budget. Imagine a cheap hallmark movie beating out a half billion Marvel movie in numbers....
Ooh, it's the license board from FFXII... Travel nodes in PoE's skill tree are just that; they essentially make it so that Major nodes cost more than 1 skill point. Travel nodes also, often, are more than just +X to main stats and force you to weigh different routes through to tree to major nodes. Plus! The major nodes often literally define a character and completely change how they play; not just equate to a travel node node but bigger.
That's why there's a "double standard" between D4's license board and PoEs sphere grid.
it's not exactly the same thing. if you'd look at what they shown closely you'll see there are no path around to a certain nodes. you have to take it, where in poe there are more than 1 path to nodes.
Yes but in PoE you are stuck woth limited points and so you only get certain nodes. But D4 will likely let you keep earning paragon points for as long as you are willing to earn them.
With*
@@An.Unsought.Thought In other words, in PoE you have to choose, in D4 choice doesn't matter cuz you'll get it anyway?
Also pretty sure you wont be getting paragon points forever, level 100 is max level, you probably get paragons for doing a few side activities, but I think they'll be capped, otherwise we run into D3 again.
poe does have +x to certain stats too, but you have nodes too, and some of the nodes that contain stats plus also contains certain things to make your character more spicy, crit, chance to x, if you kill x you get x, etc.
@@doomzstrafe2749 in diablo 4 you mean?
@@NicolasSilvaVasault Yeah this video was an absolute fail but the paragon board has much more depth than presented. More depth even than the PoE passive board. When D4 will fail for PoE players is really the depth of the skill system even with D4 legendary/unique gear is not even close to the gem/link system. That said PoE2 will be dumbing down the gem/link system and removing some level of options from it as well so PoE does recognize its too much and too complex.
The other big difference that will hurt D4 for PoE players is that the limits of trading in D4 is basically like playing PoE self found. The only trade market will be for elite rare base items but I'm really not sure there is anything worthwhile to trade them for other than elite rare base items. Like if PoE only allowed trading crafted items.
@@gaspara9817 "more depth than poe passive board" lmao, ok i understand your point, but you can't be serious here, poe has YEARS of improvements, complexity and mechanics in the passive skill tree
@@NicolasSilvaVasault Yeah, I admit it, it was hyperbole. PoE passive board still has cluster gems that probably add more depth than building your own board path with the rotating boards and the glyph system.
"17 damage" - asmongold
*Raxxxanterax
Asmon its not the same thing. Firstly attribute nodes in POE are +10 not +5, and some are +30, POE would be insulted to give something as low as +5 for anything beyond maximum resistances. Secondly you take attribute nodes to level your gems higher and equip better gear. Thirdly the Attribute nodes in Path of exile lead to interesting stuff like +1 to projectiles, +20% minion damage, +10% movement speed, you know stuff that matters to making a unique and interesting build. The Diablo tree looks boring and uninspired and those stats are there to make you a ball of stats not to actually contribute to the build you are making. Fouthly, endgame is more about gear than the skill tree, as you only get so much points. The real endgame progression is the Atlas skill tree which determines what kind of content you will encounter and scales how rewarding that content is. So instead of doing something a hundred times you can do it 5 times and get a mega bunch of currency so you can get gear that will make you uber op.
Like honestly that endgame systen in Diablo 4 looks like a placeholder more than an actual system.
Asmongold - when blizzard do something, they do it better than anyone else
Also asmongold - gee I don't understand why people have a double standard for blizzard
In POE, the stat and skill tree is a related and integrated system; there is a logic to how stats and the skills they influence work together. Blizzard's much hyped paragon system is a list of nodes in crossword puzzle shape. Uninspired and unintuitive.
PoE has + to stats, yes. However PoE has much more meaningful and impactful nods that you are working towards. D4 on the other hand has a few garbage big nodes that might as well be a part of a unique item at this point. There is literally 0 depth in d4 build your character system. Also, the endgame that they shown is just awfully boring and has no innovations whatsoever
I'm more confident in the endgame compared to D3 release. Tons of builds look possible based on leaked paragon tiles and unique/legendary gear.
This is a good example of devs making the skill tree and never actually playing it for real.
This is a good example of a comment after seeing 5 paragon unlocks of hundreds and already having an opinion.
This more an example of blizz just having a really really poor showcase of the paragon board. There is a bit more to it, they just showed is extremely poorly.
@@Mesoz well my progression on frost mage in the early access beta felt terrible. I’ll leave it at that
@@liamwilson7549 Yeah I tried running a few different frost setups to during the open beta. And it didn't feel too good. Closest I got was running a build utilizing chain lightning with frost nova, blizzard wasn't too bad either. Frozen orb felt absolutely horrible even with the one aspect that made it I think stay in place when it hit something. Would love to run a pretty much pure frost build though
@@Mesoz yea I got all the available legendary items for frost up to level 25 and bosses would take forever to kill.
Yes PoE has a few stat increase nodes but they also have a massive fucking passive tree with hundreds of big changes while you can combine crafting, gem links, masteries, atlas tree and a shit ton of other things that give true depth. Diablo says "depth" and all they have is a small skill tree and the paragon tree is almost all stat increase. Huge difference. Diablo will never be on the same depth level as PoE, that's just facts. Doesn't mean Diablo 4 will be bad but it won't have depth.
Exactly, Asmon's take is seemingly ignoring that very big distinction...
I played the open beta and realized how much I disliked the top down aspect and click to move. (And they don't have paladins) But I don't go around disliking every diablo video. I understand that the game isn't for me. Other people need to have a similar mindset. Not every game is made specifically for you...
Nah man, if you are PoE shill you feel superior, which means you will go out of your way to shit on any other game that is not close to PoE (especially if it's a Diablo game) to try convincing yourself how superior you are. Even if it means wasting hours on writing comments that no Diablo player will ever give a shit about. You have a wrong mindset, you don't waste your time on pointless, stupid shit :D
You have an opinion and you can voice it.
@@Haldjas_ This is not about having the right to voice your opinion, it's about how some people's opinion can be ridiculously stupid, just like saying "+5 stat, Diablo bad" and then going to play PoE and praise the game for its passive tree, for example :D
One company will tell you it deep. The other won't say a peep. It's not a double standard to complain that it's being hyped up beyond reality, it's what Acti / Blizz / King do with all their marketing, it's meaningless words to make something look bigger than it is. They do it a lot with Call Of Duty marketing too
The issue with Paragon giving +5 to stats is that this is supposed to be an end game tree that you can access at a later stage in the game. There is no double standard with Path of Exile. Yes PoE also has nodes with + to stats, but they are on the starting tree and serve a meaningful purpose (getting stats to be able to use equipment/skills), they are not forced in the endgame trees options.
I don't see the problem. Looks interesting to me. If they add new systems and stuff to seasons I have no worries this will be very complex eventually.
Lol exactly. People are comparing this to a 10 year old game that has layers of complex systems. Let d4 come out and expand a little. It’s a live service game ffs.
That paragon skill tree looks like someone smeared poop onto a wall, and all the core stats mixed together that all but insures that there is a single best path for every class to take since there are only 10 useful nodes in that sea of +5 crap.
Comparing that mess to POE where the skill tree is clear, deliberate and has 10 times the keystone/actually important nodes is a sad joke.
And I'm not a POE fan, I just recognize good and bad design.
Asmongold for president !
I still don't understand why Blizzard insists on making these 'dev talk' videos.
Poe ;p
Exilecon hype exilecon hype
I can defend PoE a little bit - you actually want to pick some of those +5dex +5 int +5 str nodes in PoE so you can either wield weapon/armour or a gem. In diablo it's just artificial stats.
yeh sure... the +5`s in poe are like 10-20% of the tree, here we are looking at 80%+. Now do u understand ?... the difference ?
The comment didn't even mention any other games.
He was just referring to the promise of more depth when +X nodes have anything but depth.
My only gripe is that I would like to see some innovation on this formula. PoE had the minor nodes spacing out the greater nodes, and now a lot of RPGs are doing it. The most recent one I played was AC Valhalla when I picked it up last year, it has a lot of +5 stealth, health, archery, etc nodes spacing out the bigger, game changing skill nodes. It's not a bad system, it's just one we've seen a lot recently and I'd like to see something a bit more unique for Diablo.
That's the exact point. They're coping instead of doing something more interesting. It's a brand new game.
It's not that hard to understand this. Come on.
People who don't play POE thinking that the PoE tree is mostly travel nodes with stats with the occasional big node to boost damage probably never got to yellow tier maps 😭
The lack of knowledge and the strong opinions they have about it make me angry.
Just show how much people like to talk about things they barely understand
@@Axthenon yup, i don't get angry from this, but yes, they probably just watch some build guide video and go, "yep, i know how this game works, anyways, let me talk out of my ass about it"
The difference between +5 Strength in PoE and +5 strength in D4 is that in PoE that +5 strength can impact a wizard-like build by allowing access to certain skills or gear.
Whereas in Diablo 4 the game literally tells you. "Barbarians get strength, Sorceress gets Intelligence, Rogues get dex." With only some minor benefits to putting points elsewhere. Time will tell if those side benefits will be of any use, probably not because that's almost never how power scaling works.
In other words, the difference is that in D4, it's not a choice.
gamers are crybabies nowadays, i still regretting going to the Lost Ark forum back in the day
The difference in standard is that in a PoE showcase they wouldn't showcase the travel nodes while talking about the depth of the system.
Personally though my biggest concern is how little is being said about loot, one of if not the most important aspects of an ARPG.
They dont want to make +million% damage sets like in D3, but a rogue in the open beta stacked some multipliers and soloed the world boss
Well... I don't know if it's "better" (I guess that's a matter of taste), but in PoE the +stat nodes are not exactly the same as D4's +stat tiles. PoE has stats reqs for items and skill gems lvls, so it influences which pieces of gear you are able to equip or how much you're able to level up a skill. I'd say it's more nuanced decision in PoE.
Remember that "dislike agregators" are still overestimating, and a lot of videos are still on 1.5x-2x the ammount of dislikes.
It isn't a double standard, PoE has depth with a more simple paragon system, d4 has no depth and a simple paragon system, rare asmon L take.
Nah I legit thought the skill tree looked fine how they presented it. And trust me I have doubts about this game from what I saw in the beta.
@@fahkjlage23 played the beta, I somehow think that d4 is going to be less deep than d3 and it makes me laugh
@@tomhiggart yeah but the paragon tree LGTM.
I think it's a combination of getting confirmation the bulk of the endgame will be running the same old booring dungeons from the campaign with a couple more key fetches and monsters in them plus the fact the paragon system seems like a bunch of generic +5 to a stat stuff.
It's not double standards, its about pointing out the flaws in the statement "alot more depth" then progressing to show +5 str, int & dexterity. That is not Depth.
This has nothing to do with other games having the same systems, the problem is the claim "Depth" while providing the complete opposite.
My guy... , Path of Exile are +10, not +5.
The stats in Path of Exile are as a base, more interesting and more powerful. In PoE 10 strength is 5 life and 2% melee phys damage, and you can also build around strength, modifiers, and bonuses based on strength (or whatever stat you want).
In Diablo 4, 10 mainstat is 1% damage and a small other bonus, which varies class to class.
In Path of Exile, these are referred to travel nodes, they are not the "depth" of the passive tree. Roughly 40-60% of your tree are these basic nodes, depending on your build some more some less.
The passive in PoE, as you know, are one layer of the multi faceted system of building. It's not just "passive tree" it's also masteries, clusters, notables, keystone, compounded on with your gear/itemization, ascendancy, *and* your skill gems.
Compared to Diablo 4 where you have +5 stat, +9% resist, and then one legendary glyph per board, with 3-5 boards. Your buuld is dictated by your Aspect on your gear that you buuld around, and 5hats pretty much it. The legendary Glyphs are akin to a small notable in PoE, but less interesting from what I've seen.
There is no comparison, it's like comparing an orange to a pizza. Just totally different entirely.
I would take any of the extensions that measure dislikes with a level of skepticism. Feel free to correct me if I am misunderstanding, but it calculates dislikes based on data from the users who’ve installed said extension, which I imagine are far more likely to use the dislike button compared to viewers as a whole. The sample is skewed heavily towards users who use dislikes (either because they find the feature genuinely useful, or are just wanting to show big dislike numbers on things they hate)
That only means that there is even more dislike.... because the Likes are all shown ;)
@@Axthenon the ratio would be off, though. My understanding is it is taking the data from the users using the extension and applying it to estimate the total dislikes, I.e. if a video has 1,000 views, 100 of which use a dislike tracking extension and 90 of those users disliked the video it would extrapolate that 90% of users disliked the video and so it has 900 “dislikes”
But that isn’t likely true, since those with the extension are the most likely to use dislikes in the first place.
If I am misunderstanding feel free to correct me, like if the extension doesn’t do estimations and the dislike number is the actual number of users with the extension who disliked, not the estimate based on the sample, then the exact opposite of my assumption is true. Or if they use a more sophisticated modeling to account for the bias, which is entirely possible.
It's about how they presented it, GGG never say they tree become depth with +5 stat etc.
People have been trained to ignore double standards. It happens everywhere, with everything, from politics to sports.
It's not a double standard to point out that +5 stat boosts is not deep meaningful character customization.
It's because blizzard says they're doing something new and innovative, they hype and hype themselves up and then show the same stuff they have been doing again.
Blizzard absolutely despises anything that changes the 'game' or builds 'meaningfully' because they operate on max efficiency content and do NOT want to waste time balancing things, or if they do, something they can crunch down to a percentage number and call it a day.
I'd temper expectations that the 'meaningful' nodes aren't just 5% more damage under X circumstance times 2.
The paragon system is ripped from PoE yet even more uninspired than simply copying their systems 1:1. The dungeons with affixes is ripped from WoW's Mythic+. The PvP loot/exfiltrate has been done, no doubt done better, by Division 2, Escape from Tarkov etc and no info given on how PvP is going to work with hardcore.
I'm less excited for Diablo 4's endgame after that video than I was when playing the beta for the first time. The only thing that interests me is the potential affixes, and the one they chose to feature was just recycling mobs that aren't assigned to spawn in this procedurally generated dungeon's tileset. Worse, this was apparently their favourite, which doesn't bode well for the rest of them. Meh.
You know.. if it's not good, show your frustration, but if it's not that bad, spare the company your stupidity and free hate. Sooner or later the franchise will simply die, because like everyone says: "enough is enough". Blizzard will just give up. No more Diablo games, not because you didn't like it, but because you keep complaining about anything and everything. Disliking something means at least: "This has 60% things I don't like and 40% I like".
You're just helping those who just don't give a damn about Diablo or you're riding the "popular opinion", without even touching the game.
path of exile passive tree is like ~10 years ahead on customization and build variety, also you dont need to reach max level to start spending points in it