I’ve always been a fan of a hybrid approach. I used to gig a Line 6 HD500, I would use the drive pedals in it for my dirt, but would split the signal so one side would have an amp/cab sim, the other wouldn’t. Send the amp sim’d side to the PA, non-sim’d side to whatever clean amp on stage for monitoring/stage volume. Always worked well for me.
I've found that minimizing the AD/DA steps is very important for feel and tone for me. I use delays and reverbs that maintain an analog dry signal if using amp models. That really is the appeal of an All-in-One unit like a Kemper , Helix, or Fractal. One set of AD/DA.
This is great, and I think a lot of people are starting to realize the possibilities like this with new tools to guitarist. Personally, I just started building a wet/dry/wet approach with the Quad Cortex running my wet signals to FOH (and mono out to floor monitor) and then my main Marshall taking the dry drive tones. That way I get best of both worlds, and I can get away with not running my amp itself as hot but plenty of sound to keep the guitar present and cutting in the mix.
Cool setup. My low budget version of that is setting the expression pedal to control mix, for all my wet/effects, which I get from an Eventide Timefactor. Chorus,phase and delay. Those go for less than $300 used.
Maybe you need an amp with an FX loop. I use all my FM9 rigs with and without a cab. The ones with a cab go to the mixer and without the cab goes to the return of my amps. Some amps take it better but so far it's basically the best outcome I've had. I never have to re-organize anything because the routing/switching is the same. Plus the FM9 has multiple outputs so that makes it easy.
I was running the Full Helix into my Tonemaster Fender. Then bought a smaller tube amp, exactly like you said. With another tube amp on stage you can get lost. Now I have some analog pedals (one always on) one for boost and dirt. Into my HX FX for everything else. Including my lead tone via OCD in HX Fx.
Also seeing the small switching lag you get is why I stayed in HX land. Yes delays and reverbs are better on FAS. But the drunks in front of my don’t know anything and I love the way Helix stuff feels.
I’ve used a helix thro an amp ( Black spirit )for the last 10 yrs, soo many options , I listen to other pub bands and there crappy guitar tones, but saying that there is a vast improvement over the last 5 yrs or soo, so the new wave of gear is defiantly improving 😊
I think this is brilliant, mate! I started doing something similar sort of out of necessity a while back, and now I approach every gig - even studio sessions - this way. I love the flexibility, and quite frankly, I've found the 'not knowing' what will happen before I get started, to be quite engaging and stimulating in ways I would not have predicted. I find it strange that this should inspire me but so be it. Anyway, I hope it works out for you. Cheers!
I run fractal into Seymour power stage 700 in stereo to two Marshall 1x12 cabs with speakers switched out to Celestions full range live response speakers (with a tweeter in centre of cone) - I have no problems live with other amps & I find having the EQ on the Seymour means I can very easily adjust master if needed for different venues without any faffing on the fractal
I use a Two Notes opus on a Vox type of setting, straight to the PA, my pedal board into the Opus, which contains, 2 drive pedals, Chorus, Delay. That's it. Simplest set up ive ever used and always get compliments on our sound as a band. Will take my Tube amp to some of the bigger venues we play, and use a similar hybrid set up like yours 👍
When I went to Helix I sold most of my pedals to fund it. However I did keep my tube amp and have used a hybrid rig at times depending on what the situation needed. “And” is more flexible than “Or”.
What you actually want is a good sound for the listeners and an easy setup for you. The more devices you use, the more can go wrong. This is why I always prefer a one for all... in my case the Kemper Stage. It is lacking just two effects, which I put in effects loops, so that I don't ever need to touch them. Regarding sound, the master including amp an cab goes to the mixer and from the mixer I get back my preferred mix or the listeners mix to in ears. To dial in a perfect sound, it is best to use reamping and always listen in the mix, the band context. If a guitar sound is nice on its own, it might still be bad in the mix. One typical mistake is to much drive. The more sound sources you put on stage, the worse it is for the mics. Less is better on stage most of the time.
I've been doing this for years. A little lower budget but it still works. I have a Hotone Ampero which sounds great and I have an XLR out to FOH with an IR for the cab/mic and I have a feed to my amp FX loop for the on stage AMP sound, that feed has no IR or cab/mic modelling so I get just live amp sound! I'm currently looking at upgrading and getting a quad cortex to do the exact same thing but higher quality.
When you listen back to the recordings you realize that even if it wasn't perfect in the room it was way way easier and sounded better on the recordings
you figured it out! i came to this conclusion as well and im convinced it is optimal. occasionally i use certain one off pedals that my emulators don’t nail sufficiently but this is* the wae through ac30s or jcm800’s depending on the venues
I just got back from a 4 week european tour running a Helix through FOH and just the FX through various backline amps depending on the venue. My regular rig in the states is an axefx-ii xl+ through FOH and an on stage FRFR and a custom Komet with its one 1x12 set up wet/dry. I started doing it maybe 15 years ago with an eleven rack and various amps. FOH guys always loved it.
I've been running two to a couple big Fender amps and two to the front of house out of my DigiTech rp3 55 I have had it fixed multiple times and it is still the best modeler that I've heard to this day
I’m running two signals. I have the signal from my pedalboard into a A/B splitter, one line goes to amps and the other goes into a ToneX one into a frfr. It’s sounding great live. Adrian Belew is a God.
For the longest time I gigged with a gsp1101 and a tube head with a g major for channel switching the amps. Never any problems. If a head went down I could go direct.
The GSP1101 was ahead of its time! Great amp sims, IR’s, 4 cm and adjustable spillover. Had mine in 4CM and had a bank setup direct ad backup. Amott from ArchE nemy still using them live.
I still throw it back in the rack sometimes. Takes some dsp load off the Helix using the whammy. I just can’t match the flanger in it. And Univibe. Stock settings are perfect. I had to use Harmonic Tremelo instead. It just stinks having to decide on one effect per patch.
I use my kemper stage in the same way when another guitar player in my class does go through an amp with a pedalboard. Funny to see you doing the same thing. Works really well and you have a lot more possibilities under one knob against a fully analog pedalboard
Anyway you could show the same set up but with the QC? I’m interested to hear the tones you would come up with compared to the FM9. Thanks, your channel is the best!
I go with a Milkman Amp 100 + pedals into a Fender Tone Master FR-10 (and in-ears when needed); it's the most flexible and portable rig I've ever used.
Excellent video. I enjoy hearing, basically the thoughts of various guitarists that use I’ll just say, a lot of the good stuff we’ve learned about while listening to a multitude of unique artists throughout the years especially with the advent of a quickly evolving number of highly skilled engineers, pedal mechanics. We’ve truly entered a type of renaissance period for the innovation of all things electronic for everyone as well as the musician. I subscribed & thought I already was. Oh well. As I’m re-emerging from a painfully long unexpected detour I’m sifting through many various artists platforms absorbing a lot of knowledge & awesome thoughts due to various styles, likes & dislikes for a lack of better words. I enjoy & appreciate you sharing your thoughts & experimentation. As an old guy & with such a mountain of gear that, well it’s simply mind boggling & I’m so very happy I can see & experience much of this info through others. The internet has definitely become the info super highway. Cya 😁☝️
Very nice results John. Toward the end you got to what I've been wanting to do. Which is basically split the out signal and feed one to FOH and one to an amp. I am thinking basically an FRFR possibly. So you've got an amp stage presence and less of course its got to be a quiet stage.
For anyone trying to limit the number of A/D conversions in their chain (really between their guitar and ears) they can add up quickly: digital wireless, modeler, digital pedals, digital mixing boards, digital snakes (in or out), digital effects/filtering in the amp / wedge amp / or in-ear amp.
I run 2 ToneX Pedals as stereo amps in the FX loop of HX Effects, then into FX returns of a solid state stereo combo. It's pretty cool. Solid state stereo combos are really cheap, so far I've collected 4 of them.. Fender, Crate, & Peavey. Prices on those were $200, $40, & free. One extra cool thing is the HX Effects snapshots can change ToneX amp models, you can't do that on a Helix.. I started collecting these stereo SS amps after playing bass in a band. Many bassists choose a preamp pedal for tone & just run that into a DI &/or clean power amp. So I took that approach with my guitar rig as well.
I have a lot of pedals on a board and I like them all. Admitedly it took a long time and coin to gather these jewels and there are quite a lot of cable connectors, which inceases potential to fail. But I just love those sounds I get.
When I need to play backline, I run preamp models & FX into the FX return of my Fender Rumble 500. It’s a solid state amp that is lights with lots of power. The Helix preamps give me the amp tones that I need.
I use a helix xl stomp for drives and a few reverbs/delays . I also have a blues driver, reverb and delay pedal into a quilter od200 with an orange cab
@@kierenmoore3236 They can both achieve excellent clean through high gain sounds and both have excellent effects. The workflow and routing is a bit different on each with each having strengths and weaknesses. Some folks claim the Fractal sounds and feels better to them. I've found in a band situation no one but you would be able to tell and even then probably only because you know which you're using.
After reading some comments here, many guitarist has been using this method. Back then i always brought my trusty e609 with me. To me at that time, to my ears, sims are very wierd, no dimension, no air, lack of dynamic etc. So i will always hang my e609 at a gig. After years of always carefully packing gears after gigs, i finally forgot the mic, i left it hanging on the (provided/rental) amp. I realized after im already at home. I called the sound system vendor but they didn't found it. At the time i lost my mic, the e609, SM57, SM58 was already quite expensive due to the inflation and exchange rate, but the sims are quite good already at that time, so i ended up using this method instead of buying a new mic.
When I joined my current band, the lead guitarist was using a tube amp and I came in using a line 6 pod go......and I didn't jive well I was coming thru the mains in "stereo " and he was off to the left of stage..... it's like our sounds weren't meshing.....I brought in my tone king and made a huge difference our tones complimented each other's guitar. Now I use the line 6 as a back up in case my amp fails....
It boggles my mind the choices you guys have now compared to when I started playing in the early mid-1970s. Modelers?!?!? Yeah, those were decades away.
Agreed. What frustrates me is that there are hundreds of RUclips demos of modellers, pedals, amp sims, cab sims, multi-effect floor pedals etc but whilst the demonstators are clearly brilliant players they never tell you how to hook them up for the best result. I am used to just plugging into my valve combo with the odd pedal, but would like to try the digital modeller root but I just cant get the information regarding what to use and how to hook it up. I would like to try something like a HX Stomp or Kemper Player but do I plug it into the send and return, or into the front of amp or do i need a powered FRFR cab .
The difference is the sound going to your FR monitor, is not the same sound that would be going to an amp on stage. Its a finished sound, an amp thats mic’d going to the PA. Some guitarists simply cannot live without that raw tube “amp in the room” sound. I run in ears so couldn’t care for it.
Unlike some commenters here, I have 4 AD/DA transitions on my board with no noticeable latency. I guess it depends on the quality (and price) of the device - dictating sampling rate and processing frequency. What I don’t like in the modeler domain are distortion-type effects. Even when it sounds good it almost never mimics the dynamic behavior of an analog compression and impedance. Especially Fuzz.
I have a 50w mono EL34 power amp and a Matamp 2x12, so I use that if I ever need to go the backline route. I used to use a modeller with that setup along with a Triaxis using the 4CM, but my Triaxis died a death, and it's far too much of a hassle to fix it. I also have a 50 + 50 stereo Marshall power amp if I want to go the stereo route, but it's really heavy, so it usually stays home
Beatuiful tone and playing per usual John. And that sockless foot stuffed in that lambskin slipper came out of nowhere. That's a shred master's shoe in an action shot!! You're trying to attract the fetish crowd in the algorithm!! ha
A problem some guitar players have with FOH signal is too much effects (wet) live and the FOH is then dealing with mud for the mix. Studio vs Live are different with natural reverb of the room.
I always wanted to bypass the AD/DA on my Strymon pedals because I thought they should have a "digital out" for chaining them together. However, upon listening, I realized the issues were with my playing, not the AD/DA conversion. I continue hosting excellent-sounding concerts in my garage using my HX Stomp. John mentioned having a backup. If you have individual pedals, you can always bypass a dead one. Having an extra FM9 is a bit out of control.
Strymon is one of the few companies making digital pedals with 100% dry through. If you turn the mix level all the way down, it's like the pedal isn't even there -- unlike Line 6, Eventide, etc... I could never figure out why some people complain that Strymon imparts a "digital sound" to their signal. It's just not true. The problem for them is that they use the factory presets which are often set very wet to show off their effects. Just because the BigSky, Timeline and Mobius can create very lush, ambient tones doesn't mean you have to use it that way. Sometimes I set the BigSky on "Spring" or the TimeLine on "dBucket" delay at 9 o'clock blues/country songs and it sounds as natural/analog as can be.
I've incorporated modelers with my amps since they came out. I still do. There is no one way, there is just a way as long as it sounds good it is good. This crap about get rid of your amps. Um???? NO! Ill keep them both and use both. And if the pink and purple PeeTorEator comes out and it sounds good? I'll incorporate that into my rig as well.
But the FM9 amp and cab models are necessary for the FOH, and they can reproduce your amp and cab too. So the issue really comes down to how do you amplify your backline to keep up with a real guitar amp. Of course an easy answer is to use a real map with FM9 as a pedal board. Or going the next step and using the FM9 to model the amp too and go into the amp's effect's return (or a power amp and guitar cabinet). But I suspect a good FRFR like a Powercab 212 turned up will do just fine compared to that real amp. We just tend to not turn them up enough.
The new modellers aren't any more user-friendly but they do have microphone emulation and it tends to make the front of house sound just a little better but I'm telling you that nothing to this day is really any better then a DigiTech rp3 555 you do not believe me try it man try it it has four outputs and you will love it
Great video man! I would love if you did a video on how you have your guitars set up. As an aspiring legato player, it's something I'm a little lost on. It seems easier with low action but then it's harder to do rhythm stuff and hit bends. How low is your action and how bowed is your neck? Thanks a million!
For a lot of gigs i do venues want ampless set ups (i know its sucks), ive tried a lot of modellers nut i have allways gone back to my teck 21 blonde. Just sounds and feels a bit more natural for running direct with in ears.
I'm listening and it sounds great but I haven't heard one thing I can't do from this 3:55 I can turn my distortion on and off I can turn my modulation on and off I can turn my delay on and off I can turn my wall on and off
into a tube amp set up fairly clean then. well that's expensive; most people, by the sheer cost of both, would get one or the other. I have a 5 watt tube amp for recording, and a 40watt solid state for live....but I run a Tech 21 Mop Top Liverpool ( into the 40 watt ) which is no latency solid state tube emulation, for 250 USD I mean your hybrid set up sounds good .. it really does; and maybe if someone has a modeler, or a high powered tube amp, they could step into the other. I couldn't afford a high powered tube amp, or an FM9
What you’re doing makes sense but the layout does not work for what you’re trying to achieve. The issue is that for your FOH sound, you’re running everything before the amp and cab, which is collapsing everything to mono. I think to do this correctly you would want to split after the flanger, then run mono effects only in the amp path, then a different path with the amp and cab first, followed by stereo effects. That may be more blocks than an FM9 can do though.
I saw you have the Tone Maser Pro too. If you had to choose one, what would you go for the FM9 or the TMP? Does the FM9 or TMP have any key advantages when it come to tone and FX?
seems overly complex. for a lightweight versatile rig, I use my HX-Effects in 4CM with my Catalyst 100; for a modern tube rig, I use my HX-Effects in 4CM with my Mesa JP-2C and Mesa Compact 2x12 cab. For a classic tube rig, I use my HX-Effects in 4CM with my Marshall Origin 50C. I have patches in the HX-FX for each of my rigs, and for some combinations of guitars (e.g., I have a Hendrix pedalboard patch I use in front of my 1959HW full stack with a strat) I'm surprised I don't see more HX-FX out in the wild. I've yet to find a situation where I can't find an effect I need in the HX-FX
@@pb25193 Have a look at the Line 6 Catalyst line of amps; very versatile, sound very good, good feel, and it has effects. Adding the HX-Effects makes it even better, and it's relatively inexpensive rig. In many places, the Marshall Origin amps aren't very expensive, especially for a 50 watt tube amp. All depends on your budget and needs. I use my JP-2C rig for prog rock/metal; my Origin rig for hard rock / thrash; and my Catalyst rig when I need even more variety.
Can you do a preset for the quad cortex? Doing a lot of stand in gigs , different styles 70s funk / blues / 80s rock then pop. Can we do it all in one preset
I played a gig through an Ipad to PA once, will never do that again! My best suggestion is the 3 cable method. Guitar to amp input, then 2 cables in and out of modeler/rackfx. I don't even understand the 4 cable method???
Sounds very plastic, for some sounds its nice, perhaps some 80s stuff, but for raw rock is horrible in that department. The digital is a picture of an estatic eq curve, again, for control and some Styles is great, but in overdrive sounds fake always, is like an eq with agresive filters, and I see the difficulties engeneers have to translate de drive tones with this type of gear, you mic any transistor amp, not necesarily tube amp, with analog drive and just works in seconds
So let's get down to the heart of the matter why are we doing this I think we're doing this to avoid a microphone in the room that you have to deal with
Neon lights and/or DIY electrical work can cause noise. Also, I recall the first time I played a hockey rink type venue: I could not hear my reverb pedal at soundcheck😋
Well, I am not really sure why you inflate the price and latency of the original board with the H90, especially if only using it for "phaser and flanger"... These effects are objectively better in the HX Stomp and save you a needless AD/DA conversion. I would understand the H90 if you use the more esoteric reverbs, or advanced pitch shifting and harmonizer effects - but I have rarely heard you using these. IMHO the combination of a HX Stomp XL and a Tonex Pedal (ca. 1000 Euros) will give you much better amp tones (the Fractal is not getting anywhere near good captures), better amp-like dynamics (the Fractal has terrible dynamics), and the single added conversion caused by adding the Tonex to the HX Stomp's effects loop is in total giving you still under 5 ms latency, which a human cannot hear (maybe feel, if you play a very resonant guitar like a full hollowbody). And yes, I do have an Axe-FX3, so I can compare - the Tonex destroys it.
how is that not a modeler? if it's not, then it just a different kind of modeler. I mean what is it called, the new and improved kind of modeler? ... EDIT: ok wait, your running a modeler into a tube amp, now I get it.
My honest opinion, it sounds sterile, just like a modeller. The Fractal is definitely doing something unpleasant to the sound. Would probably sound better through a solid state amp?
Helix Floor vs. Hybrid Rig: Which is the Best Way? ruclips.net/video/G_5oWVu3uMw/видео.html I found Hybrid is my favourite way to go using TMDR a HXFX and a bunch of analogue bits, be good to know what you think, this vid is a comparison between that and all in the modeller (HX floor) anyways you know the outcome but I back this up whole heartedly
I’ve always been a fan of a hybrid approach. I used to gig a Line 6 HD500, I would use the drive pedals in it for my dirt, but would split the signal so one side would have an amp/cab sim, the other wouldn’t. Send the amp sim’d side to the PA, non-sim’d side to whatever clean amp on stage for monitoring/stage volume. Always worked well for me.
I've found that minimizing the AD/DA steps is very important for feel and tone for me. I use delays and reverbs that maintain an analog dry signal if using amp models.
That really is the appeal of an All-in-One unit like a Kemper , Helix, or Fractal. One set of AD/DA.
🎉
When on tour I always use the return loop of a tube amp so as to get the power section as the driver!
I'm so glad to see guitar players finally catching up to what is the real I think you really got it now Nathan
This is great, and I think a lot of people are starting to realize the possibilities like this with new tools to guitarist. Personally, I just started building a wet/dry/wet approach with the Quad Cortex running my wet signals to FOH (and mono out to floor monitor) and then my main Marshall taking the dry drive tones. That way I get best of both worlds, and I can get away with not running my amp itself as hot but plenty of sound to keep the guitar present and cutting in the mix.
Cool setup.
My low budget version of that is setting the expression pedal to control mix, for all my wet/effects, which I get from an Eventide Timefactor. Chorus,phase and delay. Those go for less than $300 used.
Maybe you need an amp with an FX loop.
I use all my FM9 rigs with and without a cab. The ones with a cab go to the mixer and without the cab goes to the return of my amps. Some amps take it better but so far it's basically the best outcome I've had.
I never have to re-organize anything because the routing/switching is the same.
Plus the FM9 has multiple outputs so that makes it easy.
FM3 to front of house and my DSL 40 is my back line ( just for me) love it
I was running the Full Helix into my Tonemaster Fender. Then bought a smaller tube amp, exactly like you said. With another tube amp on stage you can get lost. Now I have some analog pedals (one always on) one for boost and dirt. Into my HX FX for everything else. Including my lead tone via OCD in HX Fx.
Also seeing the small switching lag you get is why I stayed in HX land. Yes delays and reverbs are better on FAS. But the drunks in front of my don’t know anything and I love the way Helix stuff feels.
I’ve used a helix thro an amp ( Black spirit )for the last 10 yrs, soo many options , I listen to other pub bands and there crappy guitar tones, but saying that there is a vast improvement over the last 5 yrs or soo, so the new wave of gear is defiantly improving 😊
I think this is brilliant, mate! I started doing something similar sort of out of necessity a while back, and now I approach every gig - even studio sessions - this way. I love the flexibility, and quite frankly, I've found the 'not knowing' what will happen before I get started, to be quite engaging and stimulating in ways I would not have predicted. I find it strange that this should inspire me but so be it. Anyway, I hope it works out for you. Cheers!
I run fractal into Seymour power stage 700 in stereo to two Marshall 1x12 cabs with speakers switched out to Celestions full range live response speakers (with a tweeter in centre of cone) - I have no problems live with other amps & I find having the EQ on the Seymour means I can very easily adjust master if needed for different venues without any faffing on the fractal
I use a Two Notes opus on a Vox type of setting, straight to the PA, my pedal board into the Opus, which contains, 2 drive pedals, Chorus, Delay. That's it.
Simplest set up ive ever used and always get compliments on our sound as a band.
Will take my Tube amp to some of the bigger venues we play, and use a similar hybrid set up like yours 👍
When I went to Helix I sold most of my pedals to fund it. However I did keep my tube amp and have used a hybrid rig at times depending on what the situation needed.
“And” is more flexible than “Or”.
I do exactly that into my vibrolux with a gt1000. It sounds great! The amp attenuates the weird frequencies nicely.
Same with a Boogie and 4CM and output from GT to FOH. MIC the cab sometimes.
There you go you said it it's because you can just put on some headphones and you're rocking
What you actually want is a good sound for the listeners and an easy setup for you.
The more devices you use, the more can go wrong. This is why I always prefer a one for all... in my case the Kemper Stage.
It is lacking just two effects, which I put in effects loops, so that I don't ever need to touch them.
Regarding sound, the master including amp an cab goes to the mixer and from the mixer I get back my preferred mix or the listeners mix to in ears.
To dial in a perfect sound, it is best to use reamping and always listen in the mix, the band context. If a guitar sound is nice on its own, it might still be bad in the mix. One typical mistake is to much drive.
The more sound sources you put on stage, the worse it is for the mics. Less is better on stage most of the time.
I've been doing this for years. A little lower budget but it still works. I have a Hotone Ampero which sounds great and I have an XLR out to FOH with an IR for the cab/mic and I have a feed to my amp FX loop for the on stage AMP sound, that feed has no IR or cab/mic modelling so I get just live amp sound! I'm currently looking at upgrading and getting a quad cortex to do the exact same thing but higher quality.
When you listen back to the recordings you realize that even if it wasn't perfect in the room it was way way easier and sounded better on the recordings
I use HX effects in 4CM with a Bluguitar Amp1 and it sounds amazing.
Nice, very nice!
Me2
you figured it out! i came to
this conclusion as well and im convinced it is optimal. occasionally i use certain one off pedals that my emulators don’t nail sufficiently but this is* the wae through ac30s or jcm800’s depending on the venues
I just got back from a 4 week european tour running a Helix through FOH and just the FX through various backline amps depending on the venue.
My regular rig in the states is an axefx-ii xl+ through FOH and an on stage FRFR and a custom Komet with its one 1x12 set up wet/dry.
I started doing it maybe 15 years ago with an eleven rack and various amps. FOH guys always loved it.
I've been running two to a couple big Fender amps and two to the front of house out of my DigiTech rp3 55 I have had it fixed multiple times and it is still the best modeler that I've heard to this day
I’m running two signals. I have the signal from my pedalboard into a A/B splitter, one line goes to amps and the other goes into a ToneX one into a frfr. It’s sounding great live. Adrian Belew is a God.
I use the same approach. Fantastic sound.
For the longest time I gigged with a gsp1101 and a tube head with a g major for channel switching the amps. Never any problems. If a head went down I could go direct.
same here, the gsp1101 was the first 19" fx unit I found that didn't suck tone.
The GSP1101 was ahead of its time! Great amp sims, IR’s, 4 cm and adjustable spillover.
Had mine in 4CM and had a bank setup direct ad backup.
Amott from ArchE nemy still using them live.
I still throw it back in the rack sometimes. Takes some dsp load off the Helix using the whammy. I just can’t match the flanger in it. And Univibe. Stock settings are perfect. I had to use Harmonic Tremelo instead. It just stinks having to decide on one effect per patch.
I use my kemper stage in the same way when another guitar player in my class does go through an amp with a pedalboard. Funny to see you doing the same thing. Works really well and you have a lot more possibilities under one knob against a fully analog pedalboard
Anyway you could show the same set up but with the QC? I’m interested to hear the tones you would come up with compared to the FM9. Thanks, your channel is the best!
I go with a Milkman Amp 100 + pedals into a Fender Tone Master FR-10 (and in-ears when needed); it's the most flexible and portable rig I've ever used.
I love my Milkman 100! I run it into a JBL when I need a speaker, but I can run DI out and it works just fine. The speaker sim is very good.
Excellent video. I enjoy hearing, basically the thoughts of various guitarists that use I’ll just say, a lot of the good stuff we’ve learned about while listening to a multitude of unique artists throughout the years especially with the advent of a quickly evolving number of highly skilled engineers, pedal mechanics. We’ve truly entered a type of renaissance period for the innovation of all things electronic for everyone as well as the musician. I subscribed & thought I already was. Oh well. As I’m re-emerging from a painfully long unexpected detour I’m sifting through many various artists platforms absorbing a lot of knowledge & awesome thoughts due to various styles, likes & dislikes for a lack of better words. I enjoy & appreciate you sharing your thoughts & experimentation. As an old guy & with such a mountain of gear that, well it’s simply mind boggling & I’m so very happy I can see & experience much of this info through others. The internet has definitely become the info super highway. Cya 😁☝️
Very nice results John. Toward the end you got to what I've been wanting to do. Which is basically split the out signal and feed one to FOH and one to an amp. I am thinking basically an FRFR possibly. So you've got an amp stage presence and less of course its got to be a quiet stage.
For anyone trying to limit the number of A/D conversions in their chain (really between their guitar and ears) they can add up quickly: digital wireless, modeler, digital pedals, digital mixing boards, digital snakes (in or out), digital effects/filtering in the amp / wedge amp / or in-ear amp.
I run 2 ToneX Pedals as stereo amps in the FX loop of HX Effects, then into FX returns of a solid state stereo combo. It's pretty cool. Solid state stereo combos are really cheap, so far I've collected 4 of them.. Fender, Crate, & Peavey. Prices on those were $200, $40, & free.
One extra cool thing is the HX Effects snapshots can change ToneX amp models, you can't do that on a Helix..
I started collecting these stereo SS amps after playing bass in a band. Many bassists choose a preamp pedal for tone & just run that into a DI &/or clean power amp. So I took that approach with my guitar rig as well.
I have a lot of pedals on a board and I like them all. Admitedly it took a long time and coin to gather these jewels and there are quite a lot of cable connectors, which inceases potential to fail. But I just love those sounds I get.
When I need to play backline, I run preamp models & FX into the FX return of my Fender Rumble 500. It’s a solid state amp that is lights with lots of power. The Helix preamps give me the amp tones that I need.
I use a helix xl stomp for drives and a few reverbs/delays . I also have a blues driver, reverb and delay pedal into a quilter od200 with an orange cab
I want a Fractal so bad. I borrowed my buddies fm3 and fell in love with the effects workflow and tone quality.
How are the Fractal algorithm sounds compared to the Helix products? Cheers
@@keithb5612 The Fractal sounds great. I find the Line 6 Helix/HX and Fractal to be comparable in overall sound quality.
@@angrybuzzy. If that were true, that would be disappointing, given the price of the Fractal stuff …
@@angrybuzzy Great. Thank you
@@kierenmoore3236 They can both achieve excellent clean through high gain sounds and both have excellent effects. The workflow and routing is a bit different on each with each having strengths and weaknesses. Some folks claim the Fractal sounds and feels better to them. I've found in a band situation no one but you would be able to tell and even then probably only because you know which you're using.
After reading some comments here, many guitarist has been using this method.
Back then i always brought my trusty e609 with me. To me at that time, to my ears, sims are very wierd, no dimension, no air, lack of dynamic etc. So i will always hang my e609 at a gig. After years of always carefully packing gears after gigs, i finally forgot the mic, i left it hanging on the (provided/rental) amp. I realized after im already at home. I called the sound system vendor but they didn't found it.
At the time i lost my mic, the e609, SM57, SM58 was already quite expensive due to the inflation and exchange rate, but the sims are quite good already at that time, so i ended up using this method instead of buying a new mic.
When I joined my current band, the lead guitarist was using a tube amp and I came in using a line 6 pod go......and I didn't jive well I was coming thru the mains in "stereo " and he was off to the left of stage..... it's like our sounds weren't meshing.....I brought in my tone king and made a huge difference our tones complimented each other's guitar. Now I use the line 6 as a back up in case my amp fails....
I used to run an axe fix into a stereo tube power amp into a stereo cab. Sounded great
i used a peavey classic 30 for years with a roland vg88 running into its power section
It boggles my mind the choices you guys have now compared to when I started playing in the early mid-1970s. Modelers?!?!? Yeah, those were decades away.
Agreed. What frustrates me is that there are hundreds of RUclips demos of modellers, pedals, amp sims, cab sims, multi-effect floor pedals etc but whilst the demonstators are clearly brilliant players they never tell you how to hook them up for the best result. I am used to just plugging into my valve combo with the odd pedal, but would like to try the digital modeller root but I just cant get the information regarding what to use and how to hook it up. I would like to try something like a HX Stomp or Kemper Player but do I plug it into the send and return, or into the front of amp or do i need a powered FRFR cab .
How does this compare to going into going from the FM9 into a powered speaker like an FR-12 and also sending the FM9 to the front of house PA?
The difference is the sound going to your FR monitor, is not the same sound that would be going to an amp on stage. Its a finished sound, an amp thats mic’d going to the PA. Some guitarists simply cannot live without that raw tube “amp in the room” sound. I run in ears so couldn’t care for it.
Unlike some commenters here, I have 4 AD/DA transitions on my board with no noticeable latency. I guess it depends on the quality (and price) of the device - dictating sampling rate and processing frequency.
What I don’t like in the modeler domain are distortion-type effects.
Even when it sounds good it almost never mimics the dynamic behavior of an analog compression and impedance.
Especially Fuzz.
I just bring my Positive Grid Go and demand the venue make it work or I’m cancelling my World tour 😁
Agreed, it is the way to go for convenience
I have a 50w mono EL34 power amp and a Matamp 2x12, so I use that if I ever need to go the backline route. I used to use a modeller with that setup along with a Triaxis using the 4CM, but my Triaxis died a death, and it's far too much of a hassle to fix it. I also have a 50 + 50 stereo Marshall power amp if I want to go the stereo route, but it's really heavy, so it usually stays home
Beatuiful tone and playing per usual John. And that sockless foot stuffed in that lambskin slipper came out of nowhere. That's a shred master's shoe in an action shot!! You're trying to attract the fetish crowd in the algorithm!! ha
I use a Marshall origin 50 head. Running semi clean. Use a helix for all the effects. Sounds killer
Best of both worlds..
I have done 18months of gigs like this, the only problem is the grief from sound engineers at venues
Yeah even going stereo out from a modeler will put you on their bad side
Not all FOH are nice guys.
A problem some guitar players have with FOH signal is too much effects (wet) live and the FOH is then dealing with mud for the mix. Studio vs Live are different with natural reverb of the room.
@@stevegee218 a wet / dry, or even a wet/ dry/ wet setup fixes that. it allows the sound engineer to do the mix.
@@PhilthyCasual they are if you're the one paying them ;-)
I always wanted to bypass the AD/DA on my Strymon pedals because I thought they should have a "digital out" for chaining them together. However, upon listening, I realized the issues were with my playing, not the AD/DA conversion. I continue hosting excellent-sounding concerts in my garage using my HX Stomp. John mentioned having a backup. If you have individual pedals, you can always bypass a dead one. Having an extra FM9 is a bit out of control.
Strymon is one of the few companies making digital pedals with 100% dry through. If you turn the mix level all the way down, it's like the pedal isn't even there -- unlike Line 6, Eventide, etc... I could never figure out why some people complain that Strymon imparts a "digital sound" to their signal. It's just not true. The problem for them is that they use the factory presets which are often set very wet to show off their effects. Just because the BigSky, Timeline and Mobius can create very lush, ambient tones doesn't mean you have to use it that way. Sometimes I set the BigSky on "Spring" or the TimeLine on "dBucket" delay at 9 o'clock blues/country songs and it sounds as natural/analog as can be.
I've incorporated modelers with my amps since they came out. I still do. There is no one way, there is just a way as long as it sounds good it is good. This crap about get rid of your amps.
Um???? NO! Ill keep them both and use both. And if the pink and purple PeeTorEator comes out and it sounds good? I'll incorporate that into my rig as well.
But the FM9 amp and cab models are necessary for the FOH, and they can reproduce your amp and cab too. So the issue really comes down to how do you amplify your backline to keep up with a real guitar amp. Of course an easy answer is to use a real map with FM9 as a pedal board. Or going the next step and using the FM9 to model the amp too and go into the amp's effect's return (or a power amp and guitar cabinet). But I suspect a good FRFR like a Powercab 212 turned up will do just fine compared to that real amp. We just tend to not turn them up enough.
The new modellers aren't any more user-friendly but they do have microphone emulation and it tends to make the front of house sound just a little better but I'm telling you that nothing to this day is really any better then a DigiTech rp3 555 you do not believe me try it man try it it has four outputs and you will love it
If you can't find one I'll send you mine I can deal with it for a little while
Great video man! I would love if you did a video on how you have your guitars set up. As an aspiring legato player, it's something I'm a little lost on. It seems easier with low action but then it's harder to do rhythm stuff and hit bends. How low is your action and how bowed is your neck? Thanks a million!
That's awesome I do that into return of a peavey classic and use premp models from the fractal
For a lot of gigs i do venues want ampless set ups (i know its sucks), ive tried a lot of modellers nut i have allways gone back to my teck 21 blonde. Just sounds and feels a bit more natural for running direct with in ears.
Loafers optional. I go for a functional Swede merrel
if that first playthru is just the fractal effects going into the front of a fender, sounds absolutely great. 🤷♂️
I'm listening and it sounds great but I haven't heard one thing I can't do from this 3:55 I can turn my distortion on and off I can turn my modulation on and off I can turn my delay on and off I can turn my wall on and off
gt1000 works well in this situation
100% on this. I 4cm with a gt 1000 and a Boogie MK5. XLR to FOH. I can mic the Boogie Cab of needed and the sounds are fantastic. Hybrid. Yes.
I just use my Helix. It’s enough for me at the moment. My next target is the FM9
My go to rig is a D28
Too funny 🤣
I’ve thought of this, but waiting for AXE 4/FM9 2.0 for better UI.
my rule is only one A-to D conversion as each conversion creates latency
into a tube amp set up fairly clean then.
well that's expensive;
most people, by the sheer cost of both, would get one or the other.
I have a 5 watt tube amp for recording, and a 40watt solid state for live....but I run a Tech 21 Mop Top Liverpool ( into the 40 watt ) which is no latency solid state tube emulation, for 250 USD
I mean your hybrid set up sounds good .. it really does; and maybe if someone has a modeler, or a high powered tube amp, they could step into the other.
I couldn't afford a high powered tube amp, or an FM9
POGS, H90, and the new Keeley Beach Boys variation.
you'll be back to pedals. You can feel the pull already (o_O )
What you’re doing makes sense but the layout does not work for what you’re trying to achieve. The issue is that for your FOH sound, you’re running everything before the amp and cab, which is collapsing everything to mono. I think to do this correctly you would want to split after the flanger, then run mono effects only in the amp path, then a different path with the amp and cab first, followed by stereo effects. That may be more blocks than an FM9 can do though.
I saw you have the Tone Maser Pro too. If you had to choose one, what would you go for the FM9 or the TMP? Does the FM9 or TMP have any key advantages when it come to tone and FX?
seems overly complex.
for a lightweight versatile rig, I use my HX-Effects in 4CM with my Catalyst 100;
for a modern tube rig, I use my HX-Effects in 4CM with my Mesa JP-2C and Mesa Compact 2x12 cab.
For a classic tube rig, I use my HX-Effects in 4CM with my Marshall Origin 50C.
I have patches in the HX-FX for each of my rigs, and for some combinations of guitars (e.g., I have a Hendrix pedalboard patch I use in front of my 1959HW full stack with a strat)
I'm surprised I don't see more HX-FX out in the wild. I've yet to find a situation where I can't find an effect I need in the HX-FX
I do the same except I'm too poor to have tube amps.
One issue I face is, I sometimes want a different amp. (Line 6 make hxAMP!)
@@pb25193 Have a look at the Line 6 Catalyst line of amps; very versatile, sound very good, good feel, and it has effects. Adding the HX-Effects makes it even better, and it's relatively inexpensive rig.
In many places, the Marshall Origin amps aren't very expensive, especially for a 50 watt tube amp.
All depends on your budget and needs.
I use my JP-2C rig for prog rock/metal; my Origin rig for hard rock / thrash; and my Catalyst rig when I need even more variety.
Anyone else LOL at John’s “apologies” comment? 😅😅😅
What do you think about the Hughes and Kettner grand Meister?
Can you do a preset for the quad cortex? Doing a lot of stand in gigs , different styles 70s funk / blues / 80s rock then pop. Can we do it all in one preset
I played a gig through an Ipad to PA once, will never do that again! My best suggestion is the 3 cable method. Guitar to amp input, then 2 cables in and out of modeler/rackfx. I don't even understand the 4 cable method???
4 cable = modeler between guitar and amp input, as well as in the amps FX loop, I think … ?
Sounds very plastic, for some sounds its nice, perhaps some 80s stuff, but for raw rock is horrible in that department. The digital is a picture of an estatic eq curve, again, for control and some Styles is great, but in overdrive sounds fake always, is like an eq with agresive filters, and I see the difficulties engeneers have to translate de drive tones with this type of gear, you mic any transistor amp, not necesarily tube amp, with analog drive and just works in seconds
I've run my Helix into the effects return of my all-tube combo amp rather than use my FRFR.
Since 2001
I wish I’d looked at Fractal gear 3 months ago.
How does this compare to full helix doing the same job?
So I should use a fractal like I used to use my zoom pedal…. Hugh….
So let's get down to the heart of the matter why are we doing this I think we're doing this to avoid a microphone in the room that you have to deal with
At venues you can get weird earthing power noises
Neon lights and/or DIY electrical work can cause noise. Also, I recall the first time I played a hockey rink type venue: I could not hear my reverb pedal at soundcheck😋
Most of these modelers have a ground lift switch. I think all fractal products have them. So, no problem with outlet noise
Wah
How did the gig go?
Does this dude every respond to his subscribers questions???
Well, I am not really sure why you inflate the price and latency of the original board with the H90, especially if only using it for "phaser and flanger"... These effects are objectively better in the HX Stomp and save you a needless AD/DA conversion. I would understand the H90 if you use the more esoteric reverbs, or advanced pitch shifting and harmonizer effects - but I have rarely heard you using these.
IMHO the combination of a HX Stomp XL and a Tonex Pedal (ca. 1000 Euros) will give you much better amp tones (the Fractal is not getting anywhere near good captures), better amp-like dynamics (the Fractal has terrible dynamics), and the single added conversion caused by adding the Tonex to the HX Stomp's effects loop is in total giving you still under 5 ms latency, which a human cannot hear (maybe feel, if you play a very resonant guitar like a full hollowbody). And yes, I do have an Axe-FX3, so I can compare - the Tonex destroys it.
how is that not a modeler?
if it's not, then it just a different kind of modeler.
I mean what is it called, the new and improved kind of modeler? ... EDIT: ok wait, your running a modeler into a tube amp, now I get it.
My honest opinion, it sounds sterile, just like a modeller. The Fractal is definitely doing something unpleasant to the sound. Would probably sound better through a solid state amp?
It is a modeler … the best one.
I prefer the profile/capture units, personally.
@@kierenmoore3236 I know. And I use a Kemper.
Crazy… overly complicated - more setup time, more sound engineer dependency, more points of failure. No member of the audience would know either way.
Sounds digital
Helix Floor vs. Hybrid Rig: Which is the Best Way?
ruclips.net/video/G_5oWVu3uMw/видео.html
I found Hybrid is my favourite way to go using TMDR a HXFX and a bunch of analogue bits, be good to know what you think, this vid is a comparison between that and all in the modeller (HX floor) anyways you know the outcome but I back this up whole heartedly
No
Firest
So fast that you’re also the „fieriest“. 😂
You have an fm9 and you still need pedals, it's runaway capitalism!
secondest
You can try and convince me to use a modeller, I just know better
I don't see how an amp and a modeler makes a difference? Seriously John?