I can tell you what Gone with the Wind is: it is a masterpiece about a world turned upside down and someone having the gumption and grit to survive. The music fits and is beautiful, the cinematography is perfect. It's not a story about romance, war, or glorifying slavery- it's a story of survival against the odds, and how tauma after trauma after trauma affects and changes people differently.
I would argue that the movie is an intense character study of its female protagonist. Which doesn't caters to the cliche of being portrayed as likeable. Well, and I would argue that people within the story stopped liking Scarlett past the "red dress scene", save from Melanie.
I think the difficulties you had with the film-the things you didn’t like, didn’t understand-stem from your misunderstanding of the film's purpose. It's not a romance, though it has romance. Gone with the Wind is about the tension between ideology and pragmatism. Scarlett admires her mother, and sees her as the emblem of all that's right and perfect and beautiful. Ellen is the perfect Southern lady. She's the person Scarlett wants to be. The problem is that Scarlett is not an idealist like Ellen, Scarlett is a realist. When the War destroys Scarlett’s world (and not incidentally kills her mother) Scarlett's pragmatism allows her to rebuild life, wealth, and home. But she does not realize the superficiality of her accomplishment until it’s too late. Scarlett spent the entire film chasing the the accessories of what she thought was the perfect life. When her counterpoint, Melanie (also an idealist) dies, Scarlett, reflecting on their last conversation, realizes it's the satisfaction that comes from living according to the right ideals that matters. (Ow! What a run-on sentence.) But of course when Scarlett realizes she loves Rhett after all, it’s too late. A few notes: In the 1870s, it was not a matter of safe vs unsafe. Ladies did NOT ride astride. Doing so is tantamount to being a syphillitic prostitute. Bonnie was learning to ride side-saddle but Rhett made the mistake of indulging Bonnie excessively. She was dressed incorrectly in an outfit liable to get tangled in the pony's legs. Rhett's second mistake was to permit Bonnie to try to jump a much higher obstacle than she and the pony had ever attempted. That’s why Bonnie fell. Regarding the depiction of slavery: you need to remember that the story is very much a product of the Lost Cause mythology that developed after the war. In the 1930s when the book and film were made, there were still people alive who remembered prewar live and idealized it as orderly, peaceful, and pretty. Memory has a way of smoothing out the bumps you see. By treating the past as a place too perfect to survive, white Southerners could ease the pain of being sinful losers. With these considerations in mind, I think we can say Gone with the Wind is both a classic and a period piece.
Patrickc9330: Your point about gumption is well-taken and reminded me of a passage from the book. In chapter 40, Scarlett has a conversation with Grandma Fontaine who has some excellent advice: “Well, this is the reason. We bow to the inevitable. We’re not wheat, we’re buckwheat! When a storm comes along it flattens ripe wheat because it’s dry and can’t bend with the wind. But ripe buckwheat’s got sap in it and it bends. And when the wind has passed, it springs up almost as straight and strong as before. We aren’t a stiff-necked tribe. We’re mighty limber when a hard wind’s blowing, because we know it pays to be limber. When trouble comes we bow to the inevitable without any mouthing, and we work and we smile and we bide our time. And we play along with lesser folks and we take what we can get from them. And when we’re strong enough, we kick the folks whose necks we’ve climbed over. That, my child, is the secret of the survival.” And after a pause, she added: “I pass it on to you.”
Scarlett risked her life for Melanie and she takes care of her dad, her sisters, Ashley, Melanie, the children, Mummy, Pork, Prissy and even Aunt Pittypat. Not sure I'd call her self-centered. She may become rich when she marries Rhett, but she was building her own empire and working very hard. And btw, if you're sixteen and you're supposed to say goodbye forever to any fun in your life , yes, it's a tragedy. Regarding her relationship with Rhett, he told her he wasn't in love with her. It's something she thought it was true. And after the sex scene, when she's so happy and willing to try, Rhett leaves her and breaks her heart. That's the tragedy, that they don't allow themselves to be vulnerable in front of the other.
For me, this is not a romance, nor, for me, is that the intention. For me, the story is about the slow, painful coming of age and awareness of Scarlet - she begins as a child: immature and indulged. The war destroys her environment before she has a chance to mature into an adult, and she is forced to shoulder responsibility before she is ready. In addition, she shows evidence of PTSD (the dreams she has and that Rhett comforts her about). Melanie's death and Ashley's reaction finally allows her take the vital step forward into what matters to her. Rhett does not really understand her, and this is apparent when, in the end, (paraphrased), he says he had seen in Bonnie what he had hoped to maintain in Scarlet, a child, or possession he could take care of. This is belittling and shallow. Melanie is a very important foil for Scarlet, as unconventional in her way as Scarlet is in hers; they are the opposite sides of the same coin, her true sister, and again, Scarlet learns this at the last moment.
Your review is flawed on several levels. I think it lacks an appreciation for the subtlety and depth of the characters. You obviously did not fully follow the plot as you thought Melanie was Scarlett’s cousin. She wasn’t, she was Scarlett’s sister in law. Scarlett married Melanie’s brother in the beginning of the movie - it was a rather large plot point and was a big reason why Melanie remained loyal to Scarlett. The movie, while it had other dimensions, was absolutely a civil war movie - just told through the narratives of the characters in the book. Taking two months to watch the first half is just odd and discredits any review as you didn’t experience the movie as it was meant to be seen.
To say that GWTW isn't a historical epic, as you say in the video: well, that leaves me nonplussed, scratching my head in bewilderment. Actually I have to disagree with most of this audio commentary (or podcast if that's what it initially was), and state that the film is good cinema and deserves its classic status as well as its positions on top movie lists. It's such a sweeping historical fiction melodrama, so colorful and larger than life in its storytelling, and marvelous in its execution/rendering. Yes, too long, and it has its flaws. But it's a movie powerhouse. Come on, the scene where Scarlett is walking through hundreds of wounded soldiers, as the camera rises up away from her ... amazing stuff for its time. This is a film that's worthy of all its glory and adoration.
I agree with you and also disagree with the commentary. I dont know why they think the first half is a mess, or why the think that you need to have a point in a movie. Its such a good story, its entertaining.
It’s a classic. Are there elements that are dated and no longer appropriate? Certainly. But I think Gone With The Wind perfectly encapsulates the feeling that comes with the fall of a civilization and the collapse of a movement without defending the ethics of the South.
Really liked this discussion! Obviously it's a classic. To me the first half of the film was the stand out, but loved the whole thing. Scarlet O'Hara is evil and I loved that about her.
I'm not sure I would change my opinion on the film but I am eager to revisit it and see if the whole thing gels a bit better for me. There's a lot I like about the film, just not enough for me to give it masterpiece status in my books. We are toying with the idea of revisiting some of our reviewed films on the show. For Your REconsideration, I guess. lol
I love Gone When The Wind. I was feeling your commentary until you said that Bonnie’s death was solely Mammy’s fault. Yes, Mammy was holding on to the tradition in which she was raised. However, I think the writers were trying to show us how Bonnie was spoiled and inherited Scarlett’s stubbornness. And yes, my name is really Tara. 🤣
Dreams and ambitions are good but the means to get them are important too. When Scarlet married the first guy she knew he loved her but she didn't, yet she married him none the less. She was ruining his life. Second time she conned a man to marry her who was intended for her own sister. Even at the death bed of the honorable and saintly Mrs.Melanie she tries to persuade her husband for herself, it is only when he refuses she tries to pretend to love Rhett. Yes Rhett should have known that she would have never loved him but he decided to give it a try anyways. And when he realised that it won't work he left her. Good decision. Personally I believe there were no villians or evil or heroic characters in this movie. Scarlett was a victim of her own emotions, a fool and nasty yes but evil....well the story never went in such direction to show whether she was evil or not.
I do genuinely like Rhett and admire Scarlet's tenacity and resolve. Unfortunately, a lot of people get trundled under her ambitions along the way which adds a tragic quality to the character. At no point do I like Scarlet but I respect her and feel for her situation even if I don't agree with her methods. - m.
@@FYCShow There were many characters in this story that deserve respect but Scarlett?? It is difficult to say. Her only driving desires are, her love for a man who is already married and her love for her land. Even when Ashley becomes a family man.....she still loves him and she also does everything she can to save her land. (I mean at the jail she was ready to whore herself out, it is only Rhett who said that she wasn't worth 300 dollars. But she knew Rhett likes her...so can we call that act as trying to whore herself out? ) So we see that she holds on to things that she cares. But at the same time her other actions are repeatedly proving that she manipulates people around her and even uses them. Rhett shows us how it is futile to chase such women and I am glad that at the end he realizes that, it was important for his character arc.
I think the movie is about exploring a strong female character in a war/post war setting. The way they show the Southerners excited for war and then contrst it by showing the effects of war through O'Hara's POV is great :) I have never understood why so many films from that time period are considered classics, they are decent films, but labelling them a classic sells them short because people expect so much more when they watch such films and are inevitably disappointed. Most people take our sensibilities and freedoms of the modern world for granted without realising that things like the production code existed, artistic expression was very censored. Many of these films were technical as well as cultural masterpieces that the average film goer today won't be able to see/understand. If people watch these films keeping the time and it's limitations in mind, without the tittle of "classic", they would be able to appreciate them more.
Why should Scarlett be regarded as dislikable for being ambitious? Ambition is not a crime. Not everyone who is ambitious resort to questionable actions to be a success. So . . . are we to condemn Scarlett for being ambitious or for using underhanded methods to achieve her ambition? I prefer the first half. It had more drive and it was a good balance between melodrama and history. The second half . . . eh. By the way, Rhett knew what he was getting into when he married Scarlett. He knew that she only married him for his money. He knew that she was infatuated with Ashley. What the hell did he expect?
Dreams and ambitions are good but the means to get them are important too or do you believe that the end justifies all the "underhanded " methods. When she married the first guy she knew he loved her but she didn't, yet she married him none the less. She was ruining his life. Second time she conned a man to marry her who was intended for her own sister. Even at the death bed of the honorable and saintly Mrs.Melanie she tries to persuade her husband for herself, it is only when he refuses she tries to pretend to love Rhett. Yes Rhett should have known that she would have never loved him but he decided to give it a try anyways. And when he realised that it won't work he left her. Personally I believe there were no villians or evil or heroic characters in this movie. Scarlett was a victim of her own emotions, a fool and nasty yes but evil....well the story never went in such direction to show whether she was evil or not.
Vivian Leigh saved this film. Clark Gable isn’t really the lead. Not sure 🤔 if he’s top bill... but she, practically speaking, is the lead character and her lines ended up being better than many of the tedious speeches of the men. Everyone is devoted to Scarlet? She received tremendous backbiting from many of the other female characters... It’s an Epic and they always drag... I don’t love epics as much as movies like Psycho or Taxi Driver. The Searchers is the best epic I’ve ever seen... It’s definitely worth watching but not better than Rear Window... A film that has a villain the resembles David O. Selznick. I have to agree that it’s not as good as many great films...
How about a museum masterpiece piece? Always the diplomat. I hate this movie. If Gone With the Wind is a museum piece, what is the original Birth of a Nation? Is it a museum piece or absolute trash? I think it belongs in a Civil War slavery museum along with other offensive things.
I can tell you what Gone with the Wind is: it is a masterpiece about a world turned upside down and someone having the gumption and grit to survive. The music fits and is beautiful, the cinematography is perfect. It's not a story about romance, war, or glorifying slavery- it's a story of survival against the odds, and how tauma after trauma after trauma affects and changes people differently.
Yes you're right.
I would argue that the movie is an intense character study of its female protagonist.
Which doesn't caters to the cliche of being portrayed as likeable.
Well, and I would argue that people within the story stopped liking Scarlett past the "red dress scene", save from Melanie.
I think the difficulties you had with the film-the things you didn’t like, didn’t understand-stem from your misunderstanding of the film's purpose. It's not a romance, though it has romance. Gone with the Wind is about the tension between ideology and pragmatism. Scarlett admires her mother, and sees her as the emblem of all that's right and perfect and beautiful. Ellen is the perfect Southern lady. She's the person Scarlett wants to be. The problem is that Scarlett is not an idealist like Ellen, Scarlett is a realist. When the War destroys Scarlett’s world (and not incidentally kills her mother) Scarlett's pragmatism allows her to rebuild life, wealth, and home. But she does not realize the superficiality of her accomplishment until it’s too late.
Scarlett spent the entire film chasing the the accessories of what she thought was the perfect life. When her counterpoint, Melanie (also an idealist) dies, Scarlett, reflecting on their last conversation, realizes it's the satisfaction that comes from living according to the right ideals that matters. (Ow! What a run-on sentence.)
But of course when Scarlett realizes she loves Rhett after all, it’s too late.
A few notes: In the 1870s, it was not a matter of safe vs unsafe. Ladies did NOT ride astride. Doing so is tantamount to being a syphillitic prostitute. Bonnie was learning to ride side-saddle but Rhett made the mistake of indulging Bonnie excessively. She was dressed incorrectly in an outfit liable to get tangled in the pony's legs. Rhett's second mistake was to permit Bonnie to try to jump a much higher obstacle than she and the pony had ever attempted. That’s why Bonnie fell.
Regarding the depiction of slavery: you need to remember that the story is very much a product of the Lost Cause mythology that developed after the war. In the 1930s when the book and film were made, there were still people alive who remembered prewar live and idealized it as orderly, peaceful, and pretty. Memory has a way of smoothing out the bumps you see. By treating the past as a place too perfect to survive, white Southerners could ease the pain of being sinful losers.
With these considerations in mind, I think we can say Gone with the Wind is both a classic and a period piece.
Patrickc9330: Your point about gumption is well-taken and reminded me of a passage from the book. In chapter 40, Scarlett has a conversation with Grandma Fontaine who has some excellent advice:
“Well, this is the reason. We bow to the inevitable. We’re not wheat, we’re buckwheat! When a storm comes along it flattens ripe wheat because it’s dry and can’t bend with the wind. But ripe buckwheat’s got sap in it and it bends. And when the wind has passed, it springs up almost as straight and strong as before. We aren’t a stiff-necked tribe. We’re mighty limber when a hard wind’s blowing, because we know it pays to be limber. When trouble comes we bow to the inevitable without any mouthing, and we work and we smile and we bide our time. And we play along with lesser folks and we take what we can get from them. And when we’re strong enough, we kick the folks whose necks we’ve climbed over. That, my child, is the secret of the survival.” And after a pause, she added: “I pass it on to you.”
Scarlett risked her life for Melanie and she takes care of her dad, her sisters, Ashley, Melanie, the children, Mummy, Pork, Prissy and even Aunt Pittypat. Not sure I'd call her self-centered. She may become rich when she marries Rhett, but she was building her own empire and working very hard.
And btw, if you're sixteen and you're supposed to say goodbye forever to any fun in your life , yes, it's a tragedy.
Regarding her relationship with Rhett, he told her he wasn't in love with her. It's something she thought it was true. And after the sex scene, when she's so happy and willing to try, Rhett leaves her and breaks her heart. That's the tragedy, that they don't allow themselves to be vulnerable in front of the other.
For me, this is not a romance, nor, for me, is that the intention. For me, the story is about the slow, painful coming of age and awareness of Scarlet - she begins as a child: immature and indulged. The war destroys her environment before she has a chance to mature into an adult, and she is forced to shoulder responsibility before she is ready. In addition, she shows evidence of PTSD (the dreams she has and that Rhett comforts her about). Melanie's death and Ashley's reaction finally allows her take the vital step forward into what matters to her.
Rhett does not really understand her, and this is apparent when, in the end, (paraphrased), he says he had seen in Bonnie what he had hoped to maintain in Scarlet, a child, or possession he could take care of. This is belittling and shallow.
Melanie is a very important foil for Scarlet, as unconventional in her way as Scarlet is in hers; they are the opposite sides of the same coin, her true sister, and again, Scarlet learns this at the last moment.
Your review is flawed on several levels. I think it lacks an appreciation for the subtlety and depth of the characters.
You obviously did not fully follow the plot as you thought Melanie was Scarlett’s cousin. She wasn’t, she was Scarlett’s sister in law. Scarlett married Melanie’s brother in the beginning of the movie - it was a rather large plot point and was a big reason why Melanie remained loyal to Scarlett. The movie, while it had other dimensions, was absolutely a civil war movie - just told through the narratives of the characters in the book.
Taking two months to watch the first half is just odd and discredits any review as you didn’t experience the movie as it was meant to be seen.
To say that GWTW isn't a historical epic, as you say in the video: well, that leaves me nonplussed, scratching my head in bewilderment.
Actually I have to disagree with most of this audio commentary (or podcast if that's what it initially was), and state that the film is good cinema and deserves its classic status as well as its positions on top movie lists. It's such a sweeping historical fiction melodrama, so colorful and larger than life in its storytelling, and marvelous in its execution/rendering. Yes, too long, and it has its flaws. But it's a movie powerhouse. Come on, the scene where Scarlett is walking through hundreds of wounded soldiers, as the camera rises up away from her ... amazing stuff for its time. This is a film that's worthy of all its glory and adoration.
I agree with you and also disagree with the commentary. I dont know why they think the first half is a mess, or why the think that you need to have a point in a movie. Its such a good story, its entertaining.
It’s a classic. Are there elements that are dated and no longer appropriate? Certainly.
But I think Gone With The Wind perfectly encapsulates the feeling that comes with the fall of a civilization and the collapse of a movement without defending the ethics of the South.
Really liked this discussion! Obviously it's a classic. To me the first half of the film was the stand out, but loved the whole thing. Scarlet O'Hara is evil and I loved that about her.
I'm not sure I would change my opinion on the film but I am eager to revisit it and see if the whole thing gels a bit better for me. There's a lot I like about the film, just not enough for me to give it masterpiece status in my books. We are toying with the idea of revisiting some of our reviewed films on the show. For Your REconsideration, I guess. lol
For Your Consideration That's really cool! Will you guys do Citizen Kane and Lawrence of Arabia?
Not sure that Scarlett is evil so much as incredibly stubborn and heedless of how actions have consequences. Should have been named Narcisa instead!
I love Gone When The Wind. I was feeling your commentary until you said that Bonnie’s death was solely Mammy’s fault. Yes, Mammy was holding on to the tradition in which she was raised. However, I think the writers were trying to show us how Bonnie was spoiled and inherited Scarlett’s stubbornness. And yes, my name is really Tara. 🤣
Thanks for the great content! GWTW is a tricky film to analyse.
Dreams and ambitions are good but the means to get them are important too.
When Scarlet married the first guy she knew he loved her but she didn't, yet she married him none the less. She was ruining his life.
Second time she conned a man to marry her who was intended for her own sister.
Even at the death bed of the honorable and saintly Mrs.Melanie she tries to persuade her husband for herself, it is only when he refuses she tries to pretend to love Rhett.
Yes Rhett should have known that she would have never loved him but he decided to give it a try anyways. And when he realised that it won't work he left her. Good decision.
Personally I believe there were no villians or evil or heroic characters in this movie. Scarlett was a victim of her own emotions, a fool and nasty yes but evil....well the story never went in such direction to show whether she was evil or not.
I do genuinely like Rhett and admire Scarlet's tenacity and resolve. Unfortunately, a lot of people get trundled under her ambitions along the way which adds a tragic quality to the character. At no point do I like Scarlet but I respect her and feel for her situation even if I don't agree with her methods. - m.
@@FYCShow There were many characters in this story that deserve respect but Scarlett??
It is difficult to say.
Her only driving desires are, her love for a man who is already married and her love for her land.
Even when Ashley becomes a family man.....she still loves him and she also does everything she can to save her land. (I mean at the jail she was ready to whore herself out, it is only Rhett who said that she wasn't worth 300 dollars. But she knew Rhett likes her...so can we call that act as trying to whore herself out? )
So we see that she holds on to things that she cares. But at the same time her other actions are repeatedly proving that she manipulates people around her and even uses them.
Rhett shows us how it is futile to chase such women and I am glad that at the end he realizes that, it was important for his character arc.
I think the movie is about exploring a strong female character in a war/post war setting. The way they show the Southerners excited for war and then contrst it by showing the effects of war through O'Hara's POV is great :)
I have never understood why so many films from that time period are considered classics, they are decent films, but labelling them a classic sells them short because people expect so much more when they watch such films and are inevitably disappointed. Most people take our sensibilities and freedoms of the modern world for granted without realising that things like the production code existed, artistic expression was very censored. Many of these films were technical as well as cultural masterpieces that the average film goer today won't be able to see/understand. If people watch these films keeping the time and it's limitations in mind, without the tittle of "classic", they would be able to appreciate them more.
Why should Scarlett be regarded as dislikable for being ambitious? Ambition is not a crime. Not everyone who is ambitious resort to questionable actions to be a success. So . . . are we to condemn Scarlett for being ambitious or for using underhanded methods to achieve her ambition?
I prefer the first half. It had more drive and it was a good balance between melodrama and history. The second half . . . eh.
By the way, Rhett knew what he was getting into when he married Scarlett. He knew that she only married him for his money. He knew that she was infatuated with Ashley. What the hell did he expect?
Dreams and ambitions are good but the means to get them are important too or do you believe that the end justifies all the "underhanded " methods.
When she married the first guy she knew he loved her but she didn't, yet she married him none the less. She was ruining his life.
Second time she conned a man to marry her who was intended for her own sister.
Even at the death bed of the honorable and saintly Mrs.Melanie she tries to persuade her husband for herself, it is only when he refuses she tries to pretend to love Rhett.
Yes Rhett should have known that she would have never loved him but he decided to give it a try anyways. And when he realised that it won't work he left her.
Personally I believe there were no villians or evil or heroic characters in this movie. Scarlett was a victim of her own emotions, a fool and nasty yes but evil....well the story never went in such direction to show whether she was evil or not.
Men talking MCP talk.
Vivian Leigh saved this film. Clark Gable isn’t really the lead. Not sure 🤔 if he’s top bill... but she, practically speaking, is the lead character and her lines ended up being better than many of the tedious speeches of the men.
Everyone is devoted to Scarlet? She received tremendous backbiting from many of the other female characters...
It’s an Epic and they always drag... I don’t love epics as much as movies like Psycho or Taxi Driver. The Searchers is the best epic I’ve ever seen...
It’s definitely worth watching but not better than Rear Window... A film that has a villain the resembles David O. Selznick.
I have to agree that it’s not as good as many great films...
Masterpiece
U two understood nothing... don't call yourself reviewers! Lol
How about a museum masterpiece piece?
Always the diplomat. I hate this movie.
If Gone With the Wind is a museum piece, what is the original Birth of a Nation? Is it a museum piece or absolute trash?
I think it belongs in a Civil War slavery museum along with other offensive things.