Ladder Bar Percentage of Rise | Instant Center to Center of Gravity | Drag Racing Suspension Tuning
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- Опубликовано: 9 янв 2021
- Drag Racing Suspension Tuning by using the Ladder Bar Percentage of Rise Method with how the Instant Center to Center of Gravity correlates! This will work for Ladder Bars and 4 Link rear drag race suspensions along with Anti Squat understanding. Don't get confused with Ladder Bar Anti Squat Line... rely on the ladder bar percentage of rise method for sure.
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This video covers how to use the percentage of rise method to help determine the amount of hit on the rear slicks, especially with ladder bars for drag racing. While the Anti Squat method is a great tool and one I use often, I also like to evaluate the angles/slopes of the Instant Center intersection on the rise of the Center of Gravity. Trying to use the Anti Squat line for ladder bars will can get you confused. When you start to understand these two methods and the angles of the bars, now you have some amazing data from which to make educated decisions!
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Get with us at our shop to let us help you scale your car and do a complete plot of your car as it is today and then we can discuss what changes, if any, we would recommend. We do drag car chassis tuning, chassis setup and ensure the suspension is setup for the best drag racing launches possible! We also offer online remote services from our website here below:
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WEBSITE LINKS
4 Link Bar Angles & Finding Center of Gravity (CG)
• 4 Link Bar Angles | 4 ...
Get your Instant Center Coordinates:
www.baselinesuspensions.com/i...
Slope Calculator to get your slope equation:
www.calculator.net/slope-calc...
Graphing Tool to visualize these data points:
www.desmos.com/calculator
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Scales used:
amzn.to/2M1e7XF
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Full Suspension Series Playlist to walk through extensive drag racing suspension tuning:
• Suspension Tuning and ...
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While the Anti Squat method is a great method for establishing a baseline from which to begin working, I do use the Percentage of Rise method to add another visual aid of the angles and intersection with the Center of Gravity (COG). This video will cover all the details of getting a visual picture of the Percentage of Rise to establish a known amount of hit on the rear end based on testing at the track. We even cover the free tools on the internet you can use to get a visual graph of these plots. Special shout out to Alan Phillips for a great pro tip on using the graphing website on entering coordinates using an example like y=(8.75/53.44)x to eliminate the need for the slope calculation website!!
suspension newbie here, so much info here. I am building a ladder bar drag car right now and this was found just in time. Time to geek out and get this all on paper. THANKS for all this info.
This is freaking awesome, I’ve been binge watching your videos and definitely helps out a lot! We do mud drags and now I understand where the IC is and where you move it and what it does, along with shocks! Balancing everything is going to be easier and have everything work in with each other in harmony! Thanks a million!
Myles Teller thanks so much for your comments! Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!!
I don’t know if it’s your voice or cadence, but your videos are pleasing to the ear and easy to absorb the information. Thank you for sharing.
tommy b thanks so much for your comments! Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!!
Thanks again for the great info and links. Yours are some of the most helpful videos on YT!
Good stuff. I just graphed my brother's stock suspension foxbody mustang. we are going to move the lower control arm rearend housing mounting point to better suit the drag radial tire. It is really interesting to compare the current percentage of rise versus where it will be after making the change. I feel like this method provides a better visualization than the IC vs AS line method. I will be watching more of your content. Thank you for sharing!
I just read the Alston Chassisworks book last updated in the 1990's. He references the Percent Rise as his method of choice. He mentions in the book that people will think this method is old and not reliable but he says it is absolutely a good method to tune your suspension but it takes trial and error to get there. What I appreciated about the book is he gave general guidelines on where to start and what direction to go based on what kind of chassis car or stock frame car you have to work with.
sanger440 thanks so much for your comments! That is a great book for sure! Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!!
I definitely love your videos, I just found you and love how you explain everything to a tea!! Thanks for the hard work!!
Jonathan Martini thanks so much for your comments! Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!!
Nice job Kevin. Very nicely explained. Looking forward to how the changes you are making to the 49 Ford work out. Keep us posted!!!
Scott Nettell Racing thanks so much for your comments! I cannot wait to wait the 48 back out to test. Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!!
Sorting things like this out is a great time for graph paper, which saves me from doing too much math. Scale each grid = 4 inches [2 if you like], and angles fall into place.
great job....looking forward to the next vid
ben currie thanks so much for your comments! Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!!
Thanks for the great information 👌👍
Ali Almahasna thanks so much for your comments! Appreciate you taking the time to leave a comment. Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!!
I enjoy your lessons i think its mostly for guys with more power than im making but i lke your down homeness makes it easy to watch
roger paul ll thanks so much for your comments! Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!!
Great information 👍
leonard alkiewicz thanks so much for your comments! Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!!
Great video and very informative. I am driving from Michigan to talk to Kevin for just a short time. His dad is a great guy too!
Stuart Buckley thanks so much for your comments! It was great talking with you and hope you had a safe trip back home. Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!!
@@KevinWilsonSBC thank you, I will get the measurements and have you order the rear shocks early next week, Tuesday or Wednesday. Thanks for all your help!!!!
Kevin ty for your vids yup i know this is old because ive binge watched u before this time im building a rat rod and of course building my frame from scratch and adding some weird air bag mechanics to it but still using a rear bar to make it work of course im over powering it and my only hope is to blow the doors off my uncles rat he build cause i know he just made it with no thoughts on frame and placement on his suspension so i will see if my 35 can kick his 27 down the road soon enough haha
Kevin, if you used some different colored chalks, it would really help your presentation. For instance, you've got your percentage of rise, you could draw anti squat line in a different color. Draw ladder bar line in it's own and even draw the 4 link bars as well.
Thank you.
You're welcome! Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
Hi Kevin, I also have a SBC super/charged 6/71 352 Miladon block and small AFR heads. Ignition is a big problem. I have a offset belt drive and it is no easier. I have seen 3 other systems: Frame mount dist/mag belt drive, Small shaft straight off of cam. ford style (Summers Bros, craiger, Moon, Good Luck. Fred Barnes
Fred Barnes thanks so much for your comments and I agree there is no easy way for sure! I hope using some blue loctite on that small screw will help, but I will have to climb up on it and remove the cap and keep checking it. Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!!
I'm building a street freak/gasser. I want to run ladder bars for a nostalgic look, but I want it to work as well. I'm building the complete rear suspension so I may as well build it right. My issue is I don't want to run a floater on the spring. I was planning to run a "shackle" on the front mount of the ladder bar. More of a torque arm, I guess or similar to cal-trac in the way it works. The ladder bar will stop axle wrap and help weight transfer but the power or thrust will be transferred through the leaf spring. Am I looking at a ladder bar set up or a cal-trac set up or something else? Thanks.
This doesn't apply to this video but you are the only person that I feel like could help me with this question. On a stock suspension 72 C10 with stock truck arm suspension. short wheel base with a small block init. what would work better drag slick bias ply or a drag radial like a micky thompson drag radial pro or something of that sort. if this is a bogus question that can't be answered without more info I can accept that.
David Craft thanks so much for your question! There is a ton of info I would need to make a solid decision, but just off the cuff, I would definitely say a slick. Slicks are much more forgiving than a radial for sure. Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!!
Hello Kevin, I just found your channel and clicked like and subscribed, interesting and informative. My question is does the information presented in this video cross over to a street rod? The vehicle in question is a 1978 Ford F100, which is being converted to coilovers all around, control arm’s on the front and 4 link on the rear
Thanks
All the general info and principles apply. Go Fast, go straight! Be Safe!
Just watch this video,our car is a ladder bar car and I have somewhat of an understanding of the things your talking about,but our problem is our car doesn't launch hard enough initially,we use the cam position at the back of the motor as the line to intersect without all the calculations,which I will start to get more accurate mount points ,is it safe to assume my instant center is too low for the reaction we are getting on the start,I don't have scales to get too accurate,should I lift the ladder bar up and tune by the 60 foot time and adjust until it falls back off,the 60 foot now is around 1.60,for a 2840 lb car that runs 10.30 quarter, raising it one hole at a time,before shock adjust ment,we figure the car should run around 1.30sin 60 foot,great videos really appreciate the videos.
There is a good bit of info I am missing, but generally raising the ladder bar chassis mount up will make it hit the tire harder on the launch. For a 10.30 quarter E/T, I am generally expecting 1.38 - 1.42 sixty foot times. This is with me estimating flywheel hp around 500 - 515 HP. Torque absolutely impacts sixty foot as you know, along with slicks vs radials, with radials usually giving better ET's all the way around if properly planted. Starting line ratio is key, foot braking or 2 step, converter setup, weight transfer, and track prep are critical in your situation. I am curious if you are spinning though or just dead hooking and having trouble getting the car moving "quickly". Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!
Moving the ladder bar up in another video was said to take bite out of the slick, now it says moving it up will make it bite harder. This sucks cuz now I have no idea what to do to even get a starting point again 🤷🏻♂️
great videos do these calculations work for leafspring cars also? Is the 50% line supposed to be the same as the anti-squat line?
unkiesmunkle thanks so much for your comments! Yes, this works for leaf spring cars. The Percentage of rise 50% is not the same line as the AS line, but the two are close. Same principles apply at a high level. Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!!
Is the F-body rear suspension with mods the same or similar to a ladder bar type and is it always at a disadvantage to a 4 link?
Kevin.. Can ya recommend a IC starting point for my 4 link 62 nova stick car.? Car weights 3070. 52% rear 48 % front. CG is 53inches, wheel base is 110”. Bottom bar is 7” from ground parallel, IC is at 49” now,, right at 100% AS…Seems to smash the tire hard,, but is a stick car?? Should I move the IC out? Has QA1 Double adjustable all 4 corners.. Car is at 1000HP 800 ftpounds.. cuts high 1:48 1.5 60’ ft .. Appreciate any input..
Do to the torque twisting the frame at launch, the left front rises which transfers weight to the right rear. Therefore above 100% anti-squat you get more separation on left rear, less on right. I don't have an antiroll bar on the rear but I do have double adj. shocks. Have you ever heard of different settings for left and right? Is it possible to tune each side independently with shock settings?
Robert Briggs thanks so much for your comments and questions. I do know some who have staggered their shock settings in an effort to not install a rear ARB. I personally do not attempt to that as that will compromise the balance of all the suspension parts working together through the entire run and maybe even compromising the suspension on the top end leading to a bad situation at high speeds. You will never regret installing a rear ARB, so that is my recommendation. Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!!
Hey Kevin, im sure you have answered this i another video somewhere. How and or where do you get that 60 inch number from and the hight number for instant center. Sorry if you have already said this somewhere else
Tommy Waters thanks so much for your question! Checkout ruclips.net/video/nU4PXWg2Dg8/видео.html Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!!
Kevin I am building a sn95 mustang back half 4 link drag car and out of all the information I can find my biggest issue is what if you are starting from scratch is there a exact height I should mount my front 4 link brackets to ultimately give me better bar angles? I would reallly love to hear input on bracket location ty for all the information ? Good work
lil Michael Cogburn thanks so much for your comments! I realize I am 2 months behind on this one. Shoot me an email if you are still looking for more info. Sorry for late response. Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!!
What’s your opinion on ladder bar angle vs how it affects down track traction?
Not really had any issues as long as the angle is not anything crazy. Most of my ladder bar cars have a relatively 0 degree angle or 2 degrees down/up. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!
Kevin I was wondering if you can tell me how to find the IC on a suspension with a Watts link? 1 link going forward and 1 link going rearward of the rearend. Thanks
fiveothis thanks so much for your question! Generally a watts link is in place of a panhard bar. This one has me confused so I must not be following you. Can you email me some pics to specific? My email is on my website at samsonperformance.com Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!!
I have 89 foxbody 408w about 675hp.2sp glide with trans break.its turning low 6.80 high 70s I'm basically running stock style rear supine with 9in slicks.60ft times are 1.51 my question is would setting the ati squat turning help my car or ladder bar be better or worse? Ty
I would not leave the triangulated 4 link to go to a ladder bar. I would expect 1.43 60 foot times in your combo at a high level, but there is a bunch of data that will determine the ideal 60 foot times which helps your 1/8 mile ET. It also depends on your goal... in other words, bracket racing vs heads up racing... no prep vs prep...
Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!
What points would you plot on a torque arm suspension 3rd gen camaro
bryan tucker thanks so much for your comments! I will be doing another TA video soon. Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!!
What of you’re running IRS with the rear diff mounted solid to the chassis? 🙈
SoundMind TV thanks so much for your comments! Checkout my IRS video. Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!!
Hi, I need anti roll bar with ladder bar suspension?
Yes! Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!
I have one point I’m a bit unclear about. Using the anti squat method 100% anti squat should be the most violent hit which you worked out to be around 50% rise in your example. If I understand the anti squat method as you move away from that 100% anti squat in either direction the softer the hit will be. But as you use the % rise method it seems 120% anti squat would be harder than 100% anti squat. Am I missing something?
Alan Phillips thanks so much for your questions! The picture was not to scale so trying to compare the AS line in from the chalkboard is not good. On the 100% AS line would mean nearly all the energy is pushing the car forward. The larger the Anti Squat % the more separation you will experience, thus hitting the slicks harder. In other words, 150% AS will separate much harder, thus plant the slick much harder to the track, than 110% AS. With that understanding the two methods do show the same behavior considering all things. Hope this helps. I cover this more in ruclips.net/video/nU4PXWg2Dg8/видео.html and ruclips.net/video/IRHn3i2_Dnc/видео.html Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!!
@@KevinWilsonSBC yeah I’m missing something somewhere. I thought 150% AS would be less harsh than 110% AS because while there is more separation, that separation means more of the energy would go into the springs (separating the axle from chassis means springs are being stretched) and less into the slicks themselves. I thought 100% AS would put the most shock through the system as no energy is being transferred into the suspension.
Maybe is a dumb cuestión but if i change the size of my slicks ¿the instant center change? Thanks
Not a dumb question... if you change the diameter of your rear slick, then yes, that will change the instant center. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!
Thank you
I install anti rollbar in my nova with ladder bars, a lot a people said its not necessary with ladder bars but i think help me, you think i don't need them?
Most math program will let you enter y=(8.75/53.44)x. That would allow you to skip the first website entirely.
Alan Phillips thanks so much for your comments! Good info!! Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!!
Is 174% antisquat bad?
I wish I could answer that, but too many factors at play for me to just say any setting is good or bad. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!
Why don’t you do the graph with actual ladder bar dimensions, this would be good for ladder bar cars.
Doug Baran thanks so much for your question! I was trying to not make the drawing too busy. The main thing is understanding the plot for where the ladder bar attaches to the chassis. Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!!
Crap, sorry i asked my question too soon. I asked my question while watching this video.
Tommy Waters thanks so much and all good! Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!!
Why do say your videos are for a 4 link car and talk about as much or more about a ladder bar car set up than a 4 link car. If I'm running 4 link car I really don't care about a ladder bar car set up. Pick one or the other. I know there some similarities too both. same with tires pick one or the other . After a while, they run together, and it make them harder to keep them separated. Then, at that point, you're just babbling. I like your videos but pick one or the other and talk about it only . Trying to get all the stuff to work together is hard enough talking about a ladder bar setup and a 4-link bar setup at the same time is confusing even though they have some similarities.
OK.
Kevin has more vids of 4 link than ladder bars. I have a ladder bar car, and I enjoy both. Be careful when you come to Kevin’s channel. You might learn something!!