Is Lofton’s Newest Book against Orthodoxy Good?

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  • Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
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Комментарии • 130

  • @iactu896
    @iactu896 10 месяцев назад +127

    You call his book bad but yet it exists…very curious

    • @gch8810
      @gch8810 10 месяцев назад +2

      What are you getting at?

    • @damiendp8804
      @damiendp8804 10 месяцев назад +44

      Nice little Thomist joke.

    • @thecorcoran
      @thecorcoran 10 месяцев назад +6

      Calling a book bad has less of a ring than "his books is parasitic on the good."

    • @MilitantThomist
      @MilitantThomist  10 месяцев назад +68

      @@gch8810 It is a Thomism joke...existentia is a perfection, thus, insofar as something exists, it is good.

    • @YajunYuanSDA
      @YajunYuanSDA 10 месяцев назад +1

      @@MilitantThomist Timestamp 17:35 I uploaded two videos, the first showing how Catholics advocating an atemporal purgatory teaches Christians do go to heaven when they die and the second how Catholics denying temporal punishment and focusing on just purification leads to an Adventist view that God changing the body changes the mind.

  • @entusiasta7270
    @entusiasta7270 10 месяцев назад +69

    I think Lofton wrote the book more to clarify for Catholics thinking of becoming Eastern Orthodox than to convert EO themselves. Perhaps he used the 'gotcha methodology' more because some common EO objections tend to do the same. Maybe he has fulfilled the mission of the book in this sense, but I don't know since I haven't read it.

    • @AWSKAR
      @AWSKAR 10 месяцев назад +17

      That does make sense actually

    • @Jake4Truth
      @Jake4Truth 10 месяцев назад +2

      Given the title of the book "...a Catholic response to attacks from the East", given that Eastern Orthodox adherents have their issues with the Roman Catholic Church, not just on doctrinal disputes but also centering on Francis and issues surrounding Modernism (which both NO and TLM adherents take issue with), and given there are a lot of issues that center around Pope Francis among why Catholics are leaving, I don't think Lofton's book is going to be more than a dud in helping people to stay.

    • @ericgatera7149
      @ericgatera7149 10 месяцев назад +2

      This is correct. Lofton confirms it in his interview. He wrote it for Catholics who are being drawn to E.O. Hear more on this here: m.ruclips.net/video/EkzeZ-lceAc/видео.html&pp=ygUUcmVhc29uIGFuZCB0aGVvbG9neSA%3D

    • @entusiasta7270
      @entusiasta7270 10 месяцев назад +1

      @@Jake4Truth His book is divided in doctrinal, historical and *liturgical* attacks.

    • @Jake4Truth
      @Jake4Truth 10 месяцев назад

      @entusiasta7270 That misses the point. I don't think it is 1.) on the lines of being pro-EO as to why people are leaving Catholicism to go to the EO, but rather they are 2.) leaving on anti-Francis lines (among whatever reasons they leave), however many leave, few or many.
      Given number 2, I don't see Lofton's book halting much if it is angled at countering EO arguments. So in the end, how his book is structured would seem inconsequential.

  • @eabm1984
    @eabm1984 10 месяцев назад +33

    You SHOULD read the part about the Pope. Also, you give exceedingly high value to Orthodox arguments against Catholicism and, honestly, they are not as good or convincing as you credit them. In fact, Lofton's historical references, for his points, are spot on. One example, you dismiss Revelations reference of ekporeuomenon by the Lamb, yet EO rejects that the Son can generate at all...full stop; and for all that, your argument as to why this is a "different kind of ekporeuomenon" is shared or believed by NO early father, should say all that needs to be said on the subject.

  • @Kepha3
    @Kepha3 5 месяцев назад +4

    I'd be interested in your thoughts on James Likoudis' new book: "Unpacking Palamism: A Catholic Critique."

  • @appliedvirtue7731
    @appliedvirtue7731 10 месяцев назад +22

    Careful Christian. Michael Lofton will probably get upset at you on social media for “slandering” him.

    • @eabm1984
      @eabm1984 10 месяцев назад +2

      Well, nice weed you're planting there.

    • @andrewpirr
      @andrewpirr 10 месяцев назад +5

      "Totally uncharitable"

    • @carsonianthegreat4672
      @carsonianthegreat4672 2 месяца назад +1

      “Not a very nuanced or charitable attack on my hyper-qualified book.”

  • @user-ud9tk4qg6t
    @user-ud9tk4qg6t 10 месяцев назад +4

    I'm grateful for your work, Christian. You're providing a substantive defense of the faith, while engaging the best the other side has to offer. It's a blessing when you consider the alternative is someone like Lofton.

    • @KillerofGods
      @KillerofGods 9 месяцев назад

      Whats wrong with lofton?

    • @user-ud9tk4qg6t
      @user-ud9tk4qg6t 9 месяцев назад +2

      @@KillerofGods He comes across as a disingenuous grifter.

    • @KillerofGods
      @KillerofGods 9 месяцев назад +2

      @@user-ud9tk4qg6t I watch him off and on, if it wasn't for him I'd probably already ditched RCIA and just go all in on EO.
      I like both churches. I don't particularly care for all the drama going on with you guys though... Plus you guys make RCIA a pita.

    • @user-ud9tk4qg6t
      @user-ud9tk4qg6t 9 месяцев назад +1

      @@KillerofGods I am glad that you find his content useful in some way. To each his own.

    • @luisrios3446
      @luisrios3446 7 месяцев назад +1

      @@user-ud9tk4qg6t Right, to each his own. But you seem to undervalue him. Why is that? Don’t you think the work he does is great the Catholic community?

  • @ericgatera7149
    @ericgatera7149 10 месяцев назад +25

    It appears that there is a misunderstanding/confusion of methodology here. It seems that the scholastic theologian expected a scholarly approach, while the book is structured in a more popular style typical of apologists. The misunderstanding might stem from a mismatch in the intended target audience. Maybe, It could have been more effective if Lofton had followed a model similar to William Lane Craig, who first produced an academic book for those inclined toward scholarly discourse (academic press) and later created a general audience version of the same for the broader public (Catholic Answers press). This approach could have alleviated unnecessary tension among readers who may have different expectations.

    • @djo-dji6018
      @djo-dji6018 10 месяцев назад +5

      Gotcha-based and sloppy arguments belong neither to scholarly nor to more popular works.

    • @ericgatera7149
      @ericgatera7149 10 месяцев назад +2

      @@djo-dji6018 Indeed, but is there a proof that Lofton methodology is a gotcha argument? It didn't sound like it. He rather piled sources from the oppositions showing that what Catholic says are not unknown in the history of Orthodox thinkers. I doubt that this qualifies as gotcha argument, but simply as an evidence based argument.

    • @Jake4Truth
      @Jake4Truth 10 месяцев назад +1

      What do you want from a YT influencer?

    • @ericgatera7149
      @ericgatera7149 10 месяцев назад +1

      @@Jake4Truth I want to be positively influenced. And many YT do quite a good job at it, praise God.

    • @Jake4Truth
      @Jake4Truth 10 месяцев назад

      @ericgatera7149 Okay, first step. Next... will Lofton's book be a positive influence?
      Some here on this channel say Lofton's book is to stop people from going to the EO, others may say it is for something else.
      With that in mind, given that Eastern Orthodox adherents have their issues with the Roman Catholic Church not only on doctrinal disputes but also centering on Francis and issues surrounding Modernism which many, both NO and TLM adherents take issue with, and given there are a lot of issues that center around Pope Francis among why Catholics are leaving, I don't think Lofton's book is going to bring EO in or keep the Roman Catholics from leaving who intend to.

  • @AdithiaKusno
    @AdithiaKusno 10 месяцев назад +15

    Would it be possible to get Matt Fradd or Trent Horn to host a public debate between Wagner and Lofton? He is still blocking Erick Ybarra sadly. Thank you for the book review 🙏

    • @AWSKAR
      @AWSKAR 10 месяцев назад +10

      Lofton has sure made a lot of enemies lately. Whats the deal with that?

    • @AdithiaKusno
      @AdithiaKusno 10 месяцев назад +2

      @@AWSKAR the algorithms work better on conflict and debate. So as an influencer subconsciously he is driven to oppose others. Currently he is still in friendly terms with Suan Soma and Luis Dizon. He is taking an online ThD class from Pontifex College, it is not an accredited school.

    • @MilitantThomist
      @MilitantThomist  10 месяцев назад +26

      1. I have been blocked and unblocked and then reblocked 3 times by Lofton.
      2. There isn't much I disagree with Lofton on theologically, just methodologically.

    • @JoelThomas-S
      @JoelThomas-S 10 месяцев назад +1

      @@MilitantThomist where do you disagree with him theologically?

    • @Jake4Truth
      @Jake4Truth 10 месяцев назад +2

      When Is Lofton ever going to debate one of the Dimond Brothers? If their arguments are so bad it should be an easy W for him. If they aren't worth his time, then why has he put out multiple videos on them?

  • @professorlogos5459
    @professorlogos5459 10 месяцев назад +17

    What do you think is the best book that responds to Eastern Orthodox objections to Catholicism.

    • @Jake4Truth
      @Jake4Truth 10 месяцев назад +8

      Pascendi Dominici Gregis, On the Doctrine of the Modernists, Pope Pius X.

    • @omorthon5774
      @omorthon5774 10 месяцев назад

      @@Jake4Truththat book is very well respected in EO circles. We both agree modernism is demonic

  • @TheEdzy25
    @TheEdzy25 10 месяцев назад +16

    I have not read loftons book, but the book Russia and the Universal Church, is a good Read.

    • @newglof
      @newglof 10 месяцев назад +12

      Agreed, soloviev's work (at least this one) is good

  • @djo-dji6018
    @djo-dji6018 10 месяцев назад +10

    Lofton loves his "gotcha repent and confess!!!" moments, for what I've seen he does it often, especially in his videos towards critics of Pope Francis. He can be quite sneaky: he slightly misrepresents his opponents' ideas, implies they might be dishonest, ask for their immediate repentance but then later on concedes the main point of their argument while portraying it as a secondary issue...

    • @mjramirez6008
      @mjramirez6008 10 месяцев назад +10

      ''he slightly misrepresents his opponents' ideas'' like his ''opponents'' don't misrepresent Pope Francis 🤣🤣

    • @newglof
      @newglof 10 месяцев назад +10

      Lofton's calls for repentance are ridiculous and disingenuous

    • @djo-dji6018
      @djo-dji6018 10 месяцев назад +2

      ​​@@mjramirez6008 That's nothing to do with what I wrote. There are critics of Pope Francis who misrepresent what he says and others who don't. If you are a Catholic be prudent, don't indulge in tribalism.

    • @eabm1984
      @eabm1984 10 месяцев назад +9

      @@newglof well when you bear false witness against the Pope, repentance is called for and appropriate.

    • @newglof9558
      @newglof9558 10 месяцев назад +5

      @@eabm1984 two big errors with this:
      1. Just because Lofton calls it bearing false witness doesn't mean it actually is
      2. Even if it is, Lofton assumes he, personally, is the one to do this calling out, or even if call-out culture is the appropriate response in the first place
      I don't like Jay Dyer by any stretch but his recognition of Lofton's piety signalling was spot on

  • @YajunYuanSDA
    @YajunYuanSDA 10 месяцев назад

    Timestamp 17:35 I uploaded two videos, the first showing how an atemporal purgatory teaches Christians do go to heaven when they die and the second how denying temporal punishment and focusing on just purification leads to an Adventist view that God changing the body changes the mind.

  • @SaintAthanasius_Edits
    @SaintAthanasius_Edits 2 месяца назад +4

    I mean Michael Lofton Is appealing to the young teenage converts like me, the one who discerns catholicism or orthodoxy. The "eastern orthodox" or the Jay dyer edit kids all use ad hominems and poor arguments so some of it seems like answers to the ad hominems, and Michael lofton has great points against eastern orthodoxy so guarantee there is a good point but the book doesn't appeal to people on the deep end of theology.

    • @carsonianthegreat4672
      @carsonianthegreat4672 2 месяца назад +2

      There are much more charitable, nuanced, and hyper-qualified apologists than Michael Lofton.

    • @SaintAthanasius_Edits
      @SaintAthanasius_Edits 17 дней назад

      @@carsonianthegreat4672 wrong

    • @SaintAthanasius_Edits
      @SaintAthanasius_Edits 17 дней назад

      @@carsonianthegreat4672 He can 1000% understand transcendental argument.

  • @lawnchair6997
    @lawnchair6997 8 месяцев назад +3

    Name of the hymn in the beginning?

    • @IncoherentSchizo
      @IncoherentSchizo 4 месяца назад +1

      Song of Kings by Clamavi de Profundis
      ruclips.net/video/ePYe3lqsu-g/видео.html

  • @DivineVirtue777
    @DivineVirtue777 9 дней назад

    What are some good books to read then?

  • @johncollorafi257
    @johncollorafi257 10 месяцев назад +7

    We have limited dogmatic differences with those who identify as Orthodox, and the better apologetical works focus on what the Fathers, Councils, and Scripture say about those differences.

    • @ronanjm
      @ronanjm 10 месяцев назад +4

      Bad take

    • @-Justinus-
      @-Justinus- 10 месяцев назад +19

      We have limited dogmatic differences with *some* of those who identify as Orthodox. Orthodoxy is so divided that it is functionally 3-4 different religions held together institutionally by a fragile confederation of national churches.

    • @GabrielWithoutWings
      @GabrielWithoutWings 10 месяцев назад

      That’s a heck of a statement considering the state of the Catholic Church.

    • @-Justinus-
      @-Justinus- 10 месяцев назад

      @@alexpanagiotis4706 Literally the tu Quoque fallacy.

    • @-Justinus-
      @-Justinus- 10 месяцев назад

      @@alexpanagiotis4706 Why are you shouting lmao?

  • @remymargaux1233
    @remymargaux1233 7 месяцев назад +1

    What is the intro music?

    • @IncoherentSchizo
      @IncoherentSchizo 4 месяца назад

      Song of Kings by Clamavi de Profundis
      ruclips.net/video/ePYe3lqsu-g/видео.html

  • @timothyjordan5731
    @timothyjordan5731 7 месяцев назад

    Pretty good for a small readable book.

  • @ChiRhoLabarum
    @ChiRhoLabarum 9 месяцев назад +1

    Intro song?

  • @jackthayer1289
    @jackthayer1289 9 месяцев назад

    Why do you have the same pfp as my discord?

  • @Horndawg65
    @Horndawg65 7 месяцев назад +1

    Why do we all hate Lofton?

    • @Norffcchippy
      @Norffcchippy Месяц назад

      Greatness will always be hated.

  • @aloyalcatholic5785
    @aloyalcatholic5785 10 месяцев назад +5

    Unpopular Opinion (potentially): Lofton shouldn't be trusted as a catholic apologist because he apostatized to the schism and then came back only few years back. As an SSPX attendee I find it hard to swallow attacks on the Society from someone who was first calvinist, (prior something else and first Jewish), catholic, then trad cath, then EO and now accepted Catholic Inc Neo Con Catholic figure. Might be akin to the genetic fallacy or ad hominem but you can't call someone like Archbishop Lefebvre a heretic or bad catholic and have that kind of track record, sorry. I won't side against him with with the Orthodox (obviously), but he's spinning in circles to defend in spirit if not letter the indefensible from the hierarchy on a routine basis. It is normal he'd want to defend the Pope, but we live in uncommon times with respect to the Church. I think Lofton's impulses to defend the church are correct, but disordered in terms of how they end up

    • @Jake4Truth
      @Jake4Truth 10 месяцев назад +2

      And going from the 2nd to the last rather quickly? If so, who backs him $ and how given the aforementioned?

    • @aloyalcatholic5785
      @aloyalcatholic5785 10 месяцев назад

      @@Jake4Truth yeah and I actually had been watching reason n theology back when he was more or less discerning coming back into the church or even having just returned. It seemed like at that time he was more or less playing a neutral theology host. Which in itself isn't horrible if you're just trying to figure out who you are or what you're doing, but it then turned it into these Grand sweeping statements of truth with regard to him everywhere and always knowing the exact mind of Pope Francis. It is rather grating. No one has ever stopped to think that the people who he routinely attacks and criticizes could themselves do a hit piece on him

    • @katholischetheologiegeschi1319
      @katholischetheologiegeschi1319 8 месяцев назад

      ​I alao stopped watching him but it's not because of his sspx stuff. The sspx is wrong and your approach to history is false. You can't pick what you think is right based on your view. Also you can't interpret magisterial stuff on your own. So it's full of red flags. Btw i also disagree on the Lofton
      $ accusation but i think that's a typical SSPX/sede behavior to make up some conspiracy stuff instead of dealing with facts@@aloyalcatholic5785

  • @matthewtipton7387
    @matthewtipton7387 10 месяцев назад +5

    I honestly thought it would be awful. I am Orthodox and i have never heard a good argument from him.

    • @aguspare1992
      @aguspare1992 10 месяцев назад +37

      He destroyed Ubi Petrus' contention of the definitive nature of modern Orthodox teaching. Ubi was arguing that, tho not having ecumenical council, Orthodox can have definitive agreed by all teaching.
      There are many other.

    • @matthewtipton7387
      @matthewtipton7387 10 месяцев назад +2

      @@aguspare1992 except that we have had councils accepted as ecumenical

    • @novaxdjokovic9592
      @novaxdjokovic9592 10 месяцев назад +27

      @@matthewtipton7387 so why isn't florence ecumenical? I have yet to hear an orthodox coherently describe what makes a council ecumenical.

    • @TheEdzy25
      @TheEdzy25 10 месяцев назад +21

      ​@@matthewtipton7387EO have not had a ecumenical counicil...😂 2016 was an epic fail.
      The EO, reject what they once accepted to the papal claims, yet they can not come up with a better system from the one they reject...😂

    • @aguspare1992
      @aguspare1992 10 месяцев назад

      @@matthewtipton7387 Which one?

  • @YajunYuanSDA
    @YajunYuanSDA 10 месяцев назад +2

    First

  • @CatholicismRules
    @CatholicismRules 10 месяцев назад

    What is that intro music?

    • @AWSKAR
      @AWSKAR 10 месяцев назад +1

      Its by Clamavi De Profundis but I dont remember the song title

    • @PeterTheRock-II
      @PeterTheRock-II 10 месяцев назад +1

      song of kings

    • @lukew4211
      @lukew4211 10 месяцев назад

      Song of Kings