Hey ST! I wanted to note that based on the visuals for Messmer (with two snakes seeming coming out of his shoulders) I would recommend you and other Elden Ring fans check out the mythological story of Zahak, The Snake King! There's a great OSP video about him here on RUclips, and I think said mythology could be a major clue about the sort of character Messmer might be. In your own video you mention Dragon communion, and a major part of The Serpent King’s turn to evil was the eating of something he shouldn’t have (in the myth’s case, brains). Just wanted to let you know about this idea because I’ve not seen anyone else bring up this idea in other breakdown videos.
I wanted to deposit my thoughts here about the origins of Marika and Radagon, I think the DLC will most likely show Marika's origins and how she became a goddess, I was wondering if the old man and the apparently pregnant woman with her hand on her stomach in the painting (who is clearly not Marika since you can clearly see that she has very well hidden but visibly black hair) are Marika's parents and the DLC has already confirmed that this is where she became a goddess, I was theorizing about Radagon always being Marika and I think it's very plausible that they were always the same thing, the only thing that seems to contradict this is that Marika says that Radagon hasn't become her yet, he hasn't become a god yet, I'll get to it about this later but I think this is not saying that Radagon was always a separate entity but rather that at that moment he was physically separated from Marika and would become her again, the preceptor's mask says that it has the representation of a sewn mouth, to symbolize that they would be keeping all of their lord's secrets, but what secrets Radagon could possibly have that he wanted them to keep secret, it only makes sense if he wanted to keep the fact that he was Marika even if possibly physically separated from her at that moment, and the death texts of Marika's Relatives appears as a defeated demigod for Rykard and Radahn, but only appears as a defeated legend for Rennala Godfrey and Malekith who could also be considered as Marika's Family, implying that they are not demigods simply for family considerations, the fact that Miquella and Malenia were born Empyreans because they were born from a single god and the Japanese text says that their birth was vulnerable may indicate that this is due to the fact that Marika and Radagon share the same DNA and that is why they are born Empyreans already that therefore they would have 100% divine blood, which, being from the same person, would be the same as incest, making their births vulnerable,
my take on the floating Miquella rune that appears at the beginning of the trailer is that it will be the substitute to the guidance of grace, acting as the checkpoints in the Lands of Shadow. remember Miyazaki said we would follow Miquella's footsteps like we followed the guidance of grace, and that it wouldn't make much sense to have guidances of grace in a place Marika wishes to conceal.
True. And this is probably also why in the Lands of Shadow there's a leveling up system different from the main game that only exists here, this might also be under the influence of Miquella as well.
I feel like mohg was also in the shadow realm. He comes out of miquella in the bossfight cutscene. Assuming we enter the dlc via his hand, mohg might have done the same..
13:55 this makes sense. Miyazaki takes a lot of inspiration from the Psychoanalyst Carl Jung who wrote at length about the process of individuation(basically self actualization or enlightenment). In order to achieve this state, the individual must integrate their "Shadow" or dark side in order to become whole(think of a yin-yang). The process also involves combining one's animus with their anima(masculine and feminine energies) which is reflected in Miquella's androgynous appearance.
i have always interpreted Miquella's "terrifying" allure sort of like Zeus; more of a "holy crap, he's so dazzling and radiant we humans cannot comprehend it." when Semele asked to see Zeus's true form, he said no, but she insisted anyway, she was fried to a crisp because she couldn't understand it/grasp it/her body couldn't withstand. Miquella has always given off those vibes to me.
my interpretation is how he is able to inspire others to follow him and bring people together, one thing is seeing just miquella the other is seeing him with what is the (probably biggest) and most varied army in history
Yeah I tend to agree. For a being to be able to wield love so fully that it absolves and purifies the human heart is both awe-inspiring and terrifying.
I could be wrong here, but when I look at items like the bewitching branch, I think the real thing that makes him terrifying is he's "too" loving. He's like an overprotective mother that goes way too far. So far that he's willing to mind control people in the name of love.
When that character in the trailer says that Miquella's power is "terrifying", I think it's because the fanbase as a whole hasn't truly understood how his power works. All throughout the game there are references to how everyone around him comes to "like" him. A couple of items almost describe it as a compulsion that is uncontrollable, seemingly natural in how people come to idolize him. It's decently clear that he does have some power over the emotions of other, or at the very least the power to influence the way others perceive him. So if you have someone who can almost force you to see them as "good" or as a "friend", then what happens if they force you to love them? What happens if they force you to obsess over them, truly idolize them like a god? I think that's why Miquella is truly terrifying as an Empyrean. He just may have to power to force you to perceive him as a god. After all, where exactly does one draw the line between "love" and "worship"?
I had this thought too. We don't know that Miquella is definitely a good guy. How do you fight someone you're compelled to love or worship? How do you even question their motives? That is a scary power if they don't have the purest intentions.
We know he grew disillusioned with the golden order because it couldn’t help Melania, and so he sought other methods and that’s how Unalloyed Gold came about. Unalloyed Gold doesn’t seem to be compatible with the Golden Order so while he may not be antagonistic he most certainly wasn’t compatible with the ruling power at the time.
he does seem to have peoples' best interests at heart given his empathy towards those spurned by the golden order, but you can definitely get the impression that he's willing to go to great lengths to see his goals realized. You have to wonder if the Haligtree footsoldiers who blow themselves up to "light his way home" came to that idea of their own volition...
It'd be one of the most terrifying and hilarious things ever if Miyazaki went full berserk and makes miquella who's essentially Griffith in looks and in description, cause an eclipse(which essentially casts a shadow on the world) and commences his path to God hood. I mean it's all there for the taking
The thing that get me the more excited is that it seems we will get a lot of info about the Crucible. The Crucible was the bestial prehistoric era before the Erdtree, that was in fact overshadowed by the Golden Order. The Omen curse is a manifestation of it btw. Horns, wings and claws were considered pure at that time, before being seen as heresy by the GO. We saw giant beasts like the porcupine rhino using crucible thorns, the Omen dancers, the Bear incantation or the Crucible wings, all of that is refering to the Crucible imo Also, Ordovis and Siluria, were named after the Ordovician and Silurian eras, that are the second and third eras of the Paleozoïc period. The Paleozoïc is where most of the complex lifeforms originally apeared (basically it's the irl counterpart of the crucible). The first Paleozoïc era was the Cambrian, so it means that we could encounter the "first" Crucible Knight that is related to the Cambrian era
Awesome analogies and I believe you're on the right track because I have been noticing the same things. I believe Miquella is Mycelia from Mycology and Helphen's Steeple etymologies go back to/translate as Hyphae's Temple, which are trees and mycelium. The Two Fingers also look like Hypha/Chromosome
I did an interesting observation today, if you have a chance go to a walking mausoleum and take a really good look at the dead tree they have all of them share the same model of dead tree and is identical to the shadow of the eardtree.Are the mausoleum connected to the land of shadow? Is the eclipse not an event that has to happen in the lands between but a the actual shadow lands after all what is an eclipse but the moon obscuring the sun, and lest remember that the sun in the LB has relations with sin and curses so the been in the shadow of the eardtree may symbolize been in the eclipsed lands.
H@@marcoasierrabernal4893 HOLY SHIT, that's a awesome observation! They're definitely connected to Miquella, on some level! I've got to search the eclipse fortress for lore clues too!
I'm also super excited for the crucible stuff (actually currently prepping a crucible knight build for the DLC). But I think the bear incantation specifically might be more related to dragon communion, since runebears have visual connection to dragon communion (they even used to drop dragon hearts before release) and also it just looks like a dragon communion incantation.
Miquella "divesting his flesh" may mean he's become a body less spirit like Melina or Torrent. Considering we see him riding Torrent in the preview shot, it makes sense for them to be of a kind. It also is reminiscent of Ranni's plot to get rid of her body, so I wonder if we'll find out that Miquella found a similar way to die a false death. Considering the Golden Epitaph, whatever he's trying to do must be very important for him to do an act that calls back to Godwyn's death
Hands down, Smoughtown, you deserve a honorary diploma for being able to put up a 40+ minutes video out of a trailer. Have you considered writing a book I'd pay actual money for it
17:48 “a culture before the Erdtree?” If i recall correctly in the base game we learn about the Crucible being a sort of worshipped symbol before the Erdtree. Maybe its gonna have a role to play here seeing as the lion is covered in horns which are one of the symbols of the Crucible. Also the giant flame basket enemy also features horns and is quite literally a walking crucible.
@@brandoncochran5318what’s so odd is that mogh kidnapped miquella (we still don’t know exactly why) and the blood flame which is oddly similiar to the flame in the trailer is a “blood oath incantation, granted by the lord of blood” according to the description from the blood flame incantation
The crawling porcupine/rhino beast also have the same sound effect and particles when it uses its spikes than when we uses crucible incantations. I bet it will be called "Aspect of the Crucible: Thorns"
This was my first thought. He couldn't tell us the name of the giant fire enemy because it has most likely the name Crucible in it. Maybe Crucible Golem? Howewer, due to the timeline, before the age of the erdtree there was the age of the Crucible. If the Land of Shadows is the place where Marika set food and if Marika disconnected this realm from the lands between to start the age of the erdtree, I would go as far as saying that this culture has to be the crucible.
35:53 I think messmers dialogue towards marika is more so mocking or ironic. When he says "mother would thou truly lordship sanction in one so bereft of light?" He isnt allying with marikas decision to call back a tarnished to become lord, instead he's like "really? This guy? This is beneath even you mom."
Oh, I thought that that was a given. We could be wrong, but I never thought that it was something encouraging towards those "bereft of light". It just seems like he's saying "mother, isn't this person too unworthy to be lord? Are your standards really that low?"
@@mastermarkus5307 oh yeah, he definitely thinks that we're unworthy in either instance. What im saying is that in this dialogue he's making fun of marika rather than expressing concern for her "poor" choices.
Somebody in an Elden Ring Facebook group pointed out that there is a lore ghost outside the *Impaler* Catacombs that says something like "Merika, he is your unwanted child". Maybe they've been hinting at his all along
That ghost is outside the church of pilgrimage and is looking towards the wandering mausoleum and it also says that the mausoleum is cradling said unwanted child. The only things outside the impaler's catacombs are 3 dragonflies and a trina's lilly
@@gnarcissist7669 the catacombs you are referring to are called tombsward catacombs. The impaler's catacombs are southeast of the bridge of sacrifice, close to where you fight the alabaster lord.
@@Volition366 TRINA = MIQUELLA. Miquella is related to Messmer, Messmer is in the The Impaler being referenced by the catacombs. MIYAZAKI IS A GENIUS!!!!!
Im so glad you took some time to read some interviews before making your initial theory video. So many videos of folks running with preconcieved notions like they have been confirmed when the opposite is actually been stated by Miyazaki.
It's worth pointing out that in what little we have of Celtic mythology, one of the source inspirations for Elden Ring, the Land of Shadows was at once both the afterlife and the land of faerie. It was a very real place, just... offset from what we could see and hear...
14:36 If Miquella's rune, this could be the new Sites of Grace that Miyasaki mentioned we'd be encountering in Miquella's footsteps. It could also be Messmer's. There's a theory that he's their third sibling due to the butterflies and naming convention, so his rune would also look like theirs. And the way his snake coils on his spear in the key art looks just like the rune.
Messmer is just fascinating, I'm so excited to see more of him in the DLC. His aesthetic seems to be 'heresy against the Erd Tree' (hair of the fire giants, snake motifs, draconic eyes, and some kind of fire magic) which would make a lot of sense if he's Marika's unwanted child and upset about it. But I also like your theory that he and Marika may be allied because it'd be interesting to see her intentions explored a little more. Excellent video as always dude! This is going to be a great year for Elden Ring :D
I hope there’s a lot more to him than meets the eye. Like maybe, he was sent to the Land of Shadow both as a form of exile and a duty foisted upon him by Marika to oversee its denizens and the Shadow Tree.
I’ve always thought that Miquellla has a staggering amount of thematic ties to Griffith. And we know how he turned out. But not to say Miquella’s intentions don’t come from green grass roots but I think his sheer potential is what’s terrifying. The “what if” factor of this ever transcending being taking a turn to darkness….hopefully he uhhh, takes the news about his sister well. As a brother myself I wouldn’t take the news that some pothead solo’d my sister over and over very well.
Great video! You’re always my go-to channel for all things lore. Appreciate the time it takes to put these together. But one I think worth mentioning is that at the end, when Miquella gestures up towards the tree, it appears there’s no longer any visible drapes or “veil”. So while it’s impossible to know Miquella’s true purpose here, I think it’s reasonable to assume it involves “unveiling” the Land of Shadow in some way. Who knows what for
I’d also like to point out that base of the Erdtree is also not in Leyndell, but is actually in the water and on the cliff south of Altus. It would make sense for the land of shadow would be where Erdtree shadow is deepest, at the base of its trunk.
Random observation: Fought Morgott again last night and noticed something during his intro cutscene that I always found odd. The demigod thrones are not equi-distant or anything but there's an unusually large gap between the throne of Godwin and the thrones of Malenia/Miquella. Perhaps this gap is where Messmer's throne was/should be? Also I read in another Miyazaki interview that he said that there WOULD NOT be a new ending added to the base game by the DLC. I'm hoping he's lying/misdirecting to surprise us but I'm ultimately not holding out much hope for a secret Miquella ending.
@@MinerDiner Yes he does. When Morgott is descending the steps, he cites the names of each Demigod that sat on the various thrones. First one he mentions is "Godwyn the Golden".
@@MinerDiner I just rewatched the cutscene. Turns out, you're right. Though I'm surprised in hindsight that it's Godrick and not Godwyn, seeing as how he's basically Marika's grandchild while the rest are her direct children. Also I think that's the only time Godrick is ever referred to as "the Golden". Normally that's Godwyn.
I like how the shadow of the Erdtree isn’t represented as a literal shadow behind the tree but like a veil Marika draped over or from the top of the Erdtree. It isolated only what she wanted hidden and then she built the rest of her realm on top of the veil, allowing both to coexist at the same time. The way it looks, it could be alluding to the canopy of her bedchamber, but what if it’s several veils she placed over time? Like these all used to be separate lands, but they came together over time as Marika felled more opposing realms. The environments shown in the trailer are so diverse. They said the land would be bigger than Limgrave, but at least Limgrave had a pretty consistent landscape. To have such huge diversity, makes me think these are different realms and cultures squashed together. I dunno. This is gonna be fun to experience in a few months. I can’t wait!
I love this but idk it feels like it be too much like the plot of Dark Souls. Or maybe it's 3 where it's specifically different lands squeezed together
Stupid theory about what the Erdtree really is. Imagine this… the tree being strangled is the crucible and the leech is actually the Erdtree. It drains its sap and gave Marisa the power to seal off the shadow lands, the cupped build is some kind of transporter to our world. The Erdtree in our world is like an over coat of the original(crucible). Like when you walk in to challenge radagon the glow fades and the inner portion is a hollowed out stump, also the roots don’t seem to match.
that tree or burned tree is most likely the crucible. When Marika arrived in the lands between it was during when the erdtree wasn’t even sprouting and it’s well known it was during the age of the crucible. it’s why there’s a lot of omen horns, Crucible spells (we saw 3 in total), and primal life all over the place in this trailer. My guess to tie the story together is when the age of the crucible is seen its alway represents a bunch of twigs coming from the a stump or a bigger tree, kinda like grafting a perfect plant. Marika probably saw a perfect sapling sprouting and she took it and that became the Erdtree, probably leaving a lot of damage in her wake. So if that’s the case we will most likely get a lot of lore on the age of crucible and the omen curse itself. I know it’s out of the way from the video itself but it’s cool to look at different aspects of what’s going on in the trailer.
My impression from the trailer is that Messmer is a Satan-figure: He has snake & dragon imagery, wields fire, rules over a kind of hell, and depending on the story, he might also have the banished angel who betrayed their divine parent aspect (or punishes sinners on their god's command). The Vlad the Impaler connection you mentioned, and this also connects with the Satan association. He seems to embody everything heretical (Dragon communion, flames, snakes) Furthermore, his name is a reference to Franz Anton Mesmer & the concept of mesmerism, which also fits the Satan theme as a hypnotizer or seducer
My guess is that the DLC gonna take place in Eochaid "a lesser, long-vanished domain". I also think Messmer may be somehow connected to House Marais "the family of executioners who presided over the Shaded Castle". The SHADED Castle...🤔 Depraved perfumers there wear robes with the depiction of two thin red snakes entwining a tree. Talking about hints in the base game this makes a lot of sense. Waiting to see if it's true when the DLC kicks in
I think this ‘as above so below’ is the main theme. The snake that adorns Messmer is sharing a body with two heads, signifier of an Ouroboros which is also present in the expansions title text.
I think I found the alchemy reference here, Miquella is in trying to make an "unalloyed" world which I would interpret as wanting to separate either the noble from the mundane, the mind from the body, gods from mortals or something like that to make the world more pure. I keep getting more and more excited for this.
I think it's important to point out the they were never saints line is intended to point out that just because the people of the land of shadows are suffering and that they lost to marika who did some really terrible things doesn't make them 100% trustworthy or automatically good people
The thing i find most intransparent about messmer is when he came to the shadow land. If he is a child of radagon, that means that either he was only sent here fairly recently, if we assume that radagon did not exist during godfreys time as lord. If we assume the opposite, and that messmer was stationed there from the very beginning as soon as marika "left", it would mean that either he is not a child of radagon, or radagon had always existed which has huge implications as well.
@@Hideyourtoes_miyazaki marika and radagon share the same body, but they are clearly different in regards to mind and beliefs, and it is unclear when radagon came into being, whether he always was a part of marika and it just didn't show, or if he only appeared during the war against the carians. If marika and radagon are the same person, why does marika shatter the elden ring while radagon tries to repair it? Are they just stupid? Doing it for shits and giggles? Also, radagon has red hair which is related to the giants, so maybe he was created as a result of marika defeating the giants, perhaps a side effect of cursing the last fire giant to protect the flame for eternity. You know, Smough actually has a great video on this topic. You should watch it, and if you already watched it, watch it again because you clearly didn't pay attention.
Everything said in this video echoes all the crazy thoughts I've had since the trailer dropped. You really are the best lore channel out there i seriously think this interpretation is spot on
I always saw it as his power to sway people, to make them devoted to him utterly without even trying just by his nature is indeed terrifying because it is in a way a type of unconscious brainwashing. He has the ability to sway entire nations, enemies and people just with his presence. Rather than he just has pure intentions and the speaker is conservative about change. People who keep their distance from Miquella are right to be terrified that he can just influence people to his will without even trying. Imagine having a friend, an individual suddenly become a hopeless fanatic to someone just because they spent time near them. We even saw how his power is so great its a detriment to him by how bewitched Mohg became. I'm sure he was already interested in Miquella and had his own desires but combined with his power the man became obsessed and ended up stealing his body away convinced they were going to start a new dynasty together. Who's to say how much of Mohg's "love" for Miquella was amplified/warped by Miquella's inherent power of devotion. It reminds me a bit of Paul in Dune and his power over people. How he even laments on seeing powerful individuals, friends with their own wants and wisdom become nothing more than hopeless worshippers at his feet which he sees as a lessening of someone. What terrible things that leads to despite his 'best intentions' and trying to avoid it.
It’s not miquella in the cocoon I’m p sure. The way Miyazaki danced around placing a name on the cocoon arm in the interview while still mentioning miquella’s journey to the land of shadow strengthens that theory. The arm really does look much more like messemer. We shall see what the deal truly is in June
my theory goes as follows, messmer has inherited everything in opposition of the erd tree. the snake from rykard which is adorned by stone wings which is dragons, the dragons eyes from dragon communion, blood flame etc. since this realm is in the shadow of the erd tree everything that is cast aside is thriving in this realm, miquella came willingly here but miquella is also in opposition of the erdtree which then means he would thrive here aswell.
This might be a long shot but I need someone to hear me out, what if the land of shadows is under the lands between, like way under. If u look at the tree in the screen shots it starts orange and then where it appears to have another tree taking over it turns gold. And the way it branches out can almost be seen as roots. I bring this up because there’s those theories where there was a primordial force before the erdtree (like the crucible) and it’s speculated the erdtree took over as the reigning force. And so the land of shadows is the world taken over and left behind by queen Marika, leaving all things she deemed heretical to the golden order. The land of shadows could be over shadowed in the literal sense where it was covered by the erdtree and its roots and the lands between was created on top of it, and in a metaphorical sense because that’s where marika rose to god hood and then took everything golden with her into the new world she planned on creating, leaving the world a shadow of its former self.
It’d also explain the absence of of grace, the sky being all dark, maybe marika’s bed chamber is supposed to be a call back to her origins or representative of how the erdtree literally veils over the land of shadows, obscuring it from history
It's like what she did with the Nox: she made their cities crash underground after they betrayed her. And maybe that's why Fia had that fricked dream in the Darkroot depthswith a rather similiar sky, which would be close to the Shadowland then. And that could also be why Godwyn's flies of death appear around the crippled tree, like you see in the first artwork. I'm torn now on whether or not the Shadow tree is the remains of the crucible or just the Helphen.
I love this because many aspects outlawed by the Golden Order are found underground. Scarlet Rot has an ocean down there, for all we know Godwyns body only started to mutating after possibly being buried being placed closer to the Land of Shadows. Also what if it wasn't just there suffering that caused the underground merchants to fall to the Frenzy Flame but also the fact they were also placed closer to the LOS
tbh I think it’s literally in the center of the map, each of the sky colors shrouded in shadow we see in the trailer representing the areas in the dlc that are closest to the main games landmass. red caelid, blue liurna, gold atlus. if you zoom in on the erd trees base on the map that would be where the end of the dlc is and the veil is literally disguising it as an ocean. I only think this because Miyazaki talks about it as this physical place in the lands between that’s been separated, and veiled it’s possible each divine tower also corresponds to the location of a major dlc boss.
Out of all of this actually insightful and researched speculation, nothing had me hootin' and hollerin' more than "blood star video in the next week or so". I'm always so drawn to the concepts that have 3 or 4 item descriptions dedicated to them and nothing else. Excited to see your input as always
I'm going to throw a wild one and say Miquella and Messmer is one something like a Marika/Radagon deal. In the broken cocoon the arm is insanely long and does not feel like it belongs to someone eternally young. And the line "touch the arm" in the trailer shows Messmer and I was instantly focused in his insanely long arms.
Consider instead that perhaps the reason it seems to be Messmer's arm is because he's somehow taken control of the transformation, reaching out from the Land of Shadow and using Mohg's accursed blood to transform Miquella's discarded husk for his own ends. According to the flavor text poem, Miquella divested himself of his flesh; I really do think that this is meant to be taken literally, and that Miquella no longer has any use for, or interest in, his physical body- or at least *that* physical body. Perhaps Messmer took advantage of this, and has been guiding Mohg's forced metamorphosis of Miquella's remains in an attempt to return to the Lands Between from his exile, allowing him to pursue his own Age. Perhaps Mohg has been tricked- not by Miquella, but by *Messmer,* who seems to have some sort of association with the Formless Mother that I propose predates Mohg's own. Perhaps that's why the withered arm will allow us to travel to the Land of Shadow, despite Miquella having divested himself of it (and presumably thus no longer having a connection to it, spiritually). Perhaps it's actually *Messmer* whose connection to the Land of Shadow we are commandeering to use that place. Consider as well that the cocoon's site of grace is called the *Cocoon of the Empyrean.* Not of Miquella. Of *the Empyrean.*
@@corvisqueerI like this theory but the last point doesnt stand, all the empyreans are women/androgynous (Miquella) and need a womb to house the elden ring
@@corvisqueerI really love this take. I think Miquella being Mezzmer was too obvious but some of the few bits of evidence for it is rly the fact Miquellas body is becoming like a vessel for Mezzmer is so much better
I bet the lands of shadow align with the inner sea in the middle of the map. It lies right beneath where one could expect the Erdtree to cast a shadow, and fits the size description of roughly as large as Limgrave.
The name Mesmer the impaler brings to mind, vlad the impaler, the main inspiration for Dracula. I wonder if Mesmer is a vampire of sorts, draining or absorbing the sins from other entities. That could explain the chimerical look seen in his sigil and clothing, and really whole aesthetic. It’s practically everything you can think of that is sinful in the lands between. Sin eating sin, an ourobos, if you will.
Maybe instead of the Marika/Radagon thing it's a yin & yang type of situation where Miquella is the good formed by the "bad" (marika sort of shattering into radagon) und Mesmer is the "Anti-Miquella/Miquella" where he is formed by the "good". And good solely meaning he is the imbodiement of Miquellas Will hence maybe miquella reached somehow a other domain of becoming a godlike being like the greater will. Just a Noob guessing things. Dont take it to serious 😅
Dracula also means 'Dragon' so the Dragon Communion & Drake Knight connotations our boy made in this video regarding Messmer the Impaler might not be too far off?
Honestly, I'd be surprised if Messmer was the final boss of this DLC. I could see him being maybe the penultimate fight, but I guess we'll see. I think Messmer is also something Marika is "hiding in the Erdtrees shadow" so to speak. I imagine being banished/trapped in the Land of Shadow would make him no friend to his mother. I also think considering some of Miquellas drives/goals, he might be allied or working with Messmer to achieve them.
Few other speculations I like: Mesmer the Impaler - maybe he got this title becouse he is the one who impaled Fire Giants on erdtree stakes in mountaintops Shadow Lands were originally in middle section of the map that seems to be missing. Next to/under current Erdtree and literally in it's shadow. Maybe whole land is not misplaced but hidden. There is an item that lets you take form of an object - as party of animation it veils you in cloth (slightly similar to what we see in the sky). According to item discription its known as "Marika's Mischief"
The timeline does not add up. He is a child of marika and Radagon going by the color of his hair. Radagon married Marika long after the war of the giants
@@giacomorinaldi8803that's with the assumption that Radagon didn't always exist. Also possibly Radagon was cursed with Red Hair for what Marika did to the Giants so Mezzmer was as well
@@jeambeam3173 To be honest, the japanese wording for Giant Red braid is somewhat ambiguous: it is not clear wether it is talking about a curse FROM the giants or if it is actually referring to Marika cursing the last fire giant to slavery to guard the Flame of ruin. If it is the latter (which is most likely since Marika DID unambiguously curse the last giant according to his incantation description) then Radagon despises his natural red hair because it is a reminder of their shared cursed fate in servitude of Marika
Great analysis, as always. The vibe I'm getting is this: the Numen folk, Marika's people, were rumored to come 'from another world'. Perhaps this was the Shadow Lands. Perhaps her tribe lived there prior, amongst the misbegotten en omen like creatures. Perhaps, at that time, they were 'godless', the Greater Will having vested themselves in the Dragons. When this fell through, perhaps the Greater Will, probably via the Elden Beast, offered Marika the Elden Ring and with it they created the Erdtree. This act apparently split the world, with Marika and her chosen fellows 'ascending' to the lands between whilst her old home remained in the shadow of her new Erdtree. This, I would suspect, is where Marika made the pact with the Greater Will. Perhaps this is the thing Miquella wants to uproot entirely, given his goals. I do like your analogy for Heaven and Hell in this. This would make Messemer something of a Lucifer/Satan figure - a fallen child of God who rules Hell and punishes the sinners.
Amazing theory and video!! After I first saw the trailer and Miyazaki's interviews I also thought that this shadow world was a dumping ground for all the heretical. However my idea of Mesmer was that he started some form of rebelion against Godfrey and Marika that was so devastating that it started the over-all hatred for the heretical aspects of Mesmer's design within Erdtree society, and eventually they managed to 'seal' Mesmer away within this shadow world. Though this take would be invalidated if he is a child of Radagon and Marika :')
An interesting note I just noticed about the rune we see in the trailer, it looks to me like the convergence of a star and a moon. an eclipse maybe? Which would track with Miquella since we know he tried to use an eclipse to give Godwynn a true death. It could also represent the two sides of Miquella, the star being his normal radiant/benevolent form and the moon being his darker sleep oriented St. Trina form.
I don't think Messmer will be the final boss. From software tends to hide things in dlc. He will be a highlight but I think there's something or someone else. Maybe something he's working to suppress
I wouldn’t be surprised if Miquella is the true final boss and antagonist of this expansion. There’s multiple item descriptions and dialogue (both in-game and in the trailer) that Miquella’s power to compel affection is terrifying. It would be great if the story revolves around resisting or giving into his compulsions if this is true. Many people have pointed out his power and his appearance are similar to Griffith (another berserk reference). Malenia saying, “He is the most fearsome Empyrean of all,” and her subsequent fear of him gives further credence to the idea that Miquella is a more nefarious figure than wholly benevelont.
I find it interesting that if the Smouldering Butterflies do represent Messmer, and if he did partake in dragon communion, it's precisely these butterlies that Yura is contemplating as he tells us about the destructive effects of communion. It'd be funny if he knew about Messmer's tale all along and just never mentioned it because it wasn't necessary.
Hey Smough! One thing I noticed watching the trailer, was the seeming link between the draconic and the bestial in these shadow lands. The lion-dragon omen entity you mentioned of course being one aspect that seems to imply beasts taking a similar role to dragons, but also we see for instance the lion's roar incantation as a possible mirror to the dragon's roar, the large hippo-like boss as a possible mirror to the magma wyrm -- which we fight in a body of water, as opposed to lava, for added curiosity -- and the knight riding a bestial hog-like horse as a possible mirror to the dragon-horses of the draconic tree sentinels. All in all so put together, this seems to me too intentional to be a coincidence. I'll be looking forward to seeing the lore implications of these apparent connections between the dragons in the realm of light, mirrored by beasts in the realm of shadows. And I'd be curious to hear your take on it, as well, when time allows :) Have a good one!
What if Miquella compelled Mohg with his "love/worship powers" and its all a part of his 4D chess manuevers. Coz Messmer's body looks gangly and gross like whatever Mohg has done to Miquella's body, maybe Messmer under went a similar process and Miquella needed that to happen to create a gateway for the rider of Torrent to follow him into the shadowrealm
I very well can see the bloodflame being the magic he uses. But when I first saw him, I couldnt help but to think of the Giants Flame. The deep red and the fact that Messmer is of Radagon and Marika, with the unique red hair. Then there's also the deep red flame at the dragon communion altars. Messmer's elongated limbs and of course, his serpent-esque eye. His fire could very well be that of the dragon communion.
Something else you might have missed in regards to Messmer: Both the wyrm incantations (magma breath and Theodorix's magma) share the deep red coloring and style that Messmer's flame has, further reinforcing his links to dragon communion. I do think that Messmer exhibits enough qualities to effectively make him an antithesis to the erdtree/golden order, but a substantial number of these fall under that dragon communion umbrella
I'm starting to believe that serpents are descended from dragons, specifically one of the theee missing heads of paarthurnax, thus possibly making them connected to the three fingers
Hello Smough, I have started a new Elden Ring playthrough and I noticed Melina's voice is eerily similar to Miquella's in the trailer. I might even speculate that Melina is St. Trina or Miquella's alter ego after he was "burned and bodiless, placed by his mother at the foot of the erdtree", Melina's eye is also a purple hue similar to St. Trina's lilys and all the purple dream affectations in the game. Just a wild theory but I think I am on to something. And do not forget that Melina is the one who gives us torrent, Miquella's spectral/dream steed.
Great job as usual, I particularly enjoyed your take on crediting and using the community's ideas as well as yours. That is something missing in most of other lore creators videos. Thanks man
My first thought on Messmir before learning anything was that he was Miquella in a new form influenced by the blood Mohg fed him. It would be a possible explanation for the blood flame I suppose, but I'm not too certain on the hypothesis
Really good video, I think you’re on to something when talking about Merika appointing Messmer ruler over the shadow realm. thank you for sharing your thoughts! I’ve been thinking about Messmers flame and can’t shake something. I too immediately thought of blood flame and/or thorn sorceries. But I noticed that the flame is black and red. I reviewed the thorn sorceries and they don’t show flame at all, just thorns and blood. Blood flame is a big possibility but none of the incantations, or even the fight with Mohg show black in the flame. The only place we see black and red flame is in the death rune as well as the black blade. It doesn’t make sense to me at the moment but maybe Messmer wields destined death?
The lion motif also exists on the stacked Omen/worm boss thing in the trailer. It looks like the beast head Horah Loux had. I have to wonder where Messmer is referenced in the base game
I don't think that's blood flame, rather blasphemous flame like Rykard's. When Messmer hits the Tarnished in the trailer it has the same effect as when you hit enemies with the Blasphemous Blade or the Devourer's Scepter, which is a different effect than blood flame weapons.
I can't overstate how excited I am for this dlc. This will be my first fromsoft experience going in blind from day one before all the tips and tricks. I got elden ring about six months after its release, fell in love, played DS1 and 3 and Bloodborne and Sekiro, all several times, but I always had help. I might still use some on this play through, but I will be figuring it out in real time with everyone else and compiling all the tips and tricks. So bloody excited.
I’ve noticed at least on a movement/control standpoint that I haven’t seen mentioned is the new dodge mechanics. For example against the red dancer, the small weaving away out of attacks. Or with messmer when the tarnished back handsprings away. I hope these are expanded on further as more analysis videos release.
It seems that the trailer hints heavily to inverted elements such as showcasing the carian statue dude and it looks like the "Tree" in the trailer could be upside down roots. This seems so cool although we already have the underground areas but the inverted gimmick worked in the tower maybe it have some bigger things it can do aswell. The lands between, aka Midgard. So the remnants of the land above elden ring map can be seen in the ground all across the lands between, not sure if thats farum though. It makes sense though that the place where the shadow of erdtree takes place is down UNDER the map to complete the trio of above, middle and below. MAYBE even under the deeprot Depths etc. Like it's spreading in some weird yggdrasil shape... IF this is the case, maybe it isn't roots spreading out in the shadow DLC. It could be another erdtree just inverted. The two erdtrees ABOVE and BELOW are fighting to stay alive, thats why the one in the main game is strong and healthy and the one in the DLC is crumbling, The deeproot depths there have roots all over, what if it's the roots from both trees??
It might be a bit of a stretch but if you look at Mesmers spear and then take a look at the dead giants on the mountaintops the kind of spear branch looking thing coming out the top of them looks eerily similar.
This is something I've seen online. Messmer's lack of presence in the main game might actually be explained as him being given the Nameless King treatment: In Limgrave, there's a catacombs called the "Impaler Catacombs". Next to the entrance is a ghost, who talks about an "unwanted child".
What is Messmer is the son of Mogh and Miquella? And the “mother” is not Marika, but Miquella’s feminine side (St Trina)? This would explain Messmer’s design being a merge between these two.
It would seem that Mesmer had a hand in the dragon wars, evidenced by his association with dragon communion imagery. Which makes me wonder if many of the banished knights served mesmer. He also seems to be associated with the mountain tops of the giants, and sin. Evidenced by the impaled giants. For something more speculative, I wonder if this place was once the missing area of the main map, and if mesmers "purifying" flames could explain the vitrified faces of the divine towers. Just my thoughts man. Love the videos!
One of the most amazing thing about the DLC is the theories. Maybe it's just me, but any time there is speculations online about a serie ,a gameor a film, you can get the broad picture pretty quick and every commentary says the same things. Maybe two or three little details diverging, but everyone get the big picture pretty quick. Not saying it's always right, but the theories quickly become one and a accepted narative until the release. With SOTET, I hear something new every video, thats so refreshing.
One thing I haven't seen anyone talking about is how the sun seems to have a greater presence in the Land of Shadow. Especially at the final part of the trailer, when you see Miquella's hand, there's strong sunlight coming from behind the shadow tree. Not to mention quite a lot of sun symbols.
@21:49 Amazing theory. Since hearing the name for the first time I try to convince people to research on the origins of this name. In the German language Messmer literally translates to Sexton in English, a loyal servant to the church, ringing the bells and tending the graves. Finally you gave me the answers I was looking for, thank you! Despite his appearance he is loyal to his mother and her order/plans. Since first watching the trailer I thought that his sinister nature perfectly fits with Marikas ruthless way of ruling over the Lands Between and your theory is the missing link.
Your coverage was one I was super excited for. My husband asked if you would incorporate the most lore significant item, *the Albinauric bloodclot* somehow 😂❤
@@SmoughTown hey we still got 40 minutes of killer lore. Right as you were talking about the Haligtree it hit me that Malenia probably knew based on her "As I awaited his return" dialogue. I cannot wait for this dlc!!
I think the sigil on Messmer's spear is very similar to the doble serpent around the knife in the confessor's cape and the crepus's vial, the two finger's assasins brand. Wich may have some dire implications.
As I was just playing Elden Ring again, I just saw the Abductor Virgins in Mt. Gelmir have snakes inside those chambers! Maybe the baby and the mother shown is Messmer and Marika, given the connections with the details? Maybe the name it itself, "Abductor", could mean something as well!
I think that the war was against a culture or faction that became the tarnished and it is what lead to them loosing grace, the voice when speaking abt the war says “your kind” or something which would be referring to the player therefore the tarnished. And the wicker man things were used to burn this faction then when they lost the war they were stripped of their grace
IMO, Miquella is following his mother's footsteps in order to become a god, such as his mother's path, this is what has been clear all along in the main game. In the Shadow Lands, is where Marika ascended as a goddess, and it's there where Miquella will achieve his goal. And it probably will have to deal with the undoing of what is sacramented by Marika in these lands. Messmer is there to assure the continuity of what Marika built. So, the tarnished, by following Miquella's guidance, will have to fight against these rules and face Messmer, in order to grant Miquella's goal, and by also becoming Miquella's long waited Lord. I believe there will be 2 possible endings for this story, depending on the actions that we take in the playthrough: 1) 1st where Miquella achieves godhood and purifies this realm, bringing an end to the Golden Order / outer gods influences, and unify the Lands (Shadow/Between). This would be the good/true ending, or similar to Ranni's. 2) And the 2nd possible outcome, is that his ascension to godhood makes him go full Griffith/Femto insane like, deceiving everyone, including all that fought for him: - Malenia, even if we have the storytelling informing that Miquella had the "intention" to cleanse her from the Rot, he may just have used her as a tool to try to defeat Radahn, as Radahn's death is also a requisite to enter the Shadow Lands. - Even his kidnap by Mohg while Malenia was out there fighting Radahn could have been calculated, by bewitching Mohg to be his Consort in the dinasty of blood, and intentionally had the cocoon removed, in a way that Miquella could get rid of his body such as Ranni did in the night of the Black Knives. - And finally the betrayal against the tarnished who was able to permit Miquella's goal (by defeating Radahn, Mogh, Messmer). All of this will lead to a bad ending, more horrifying than Frenzied Flame (GRIFFIIIIIIIITTHHHH!!!!)
Also the whole ohh Miquella is Femto crap is such horse shit. Like Miquella and Griffith have very little in common if anything there opposites Griffith only cared about himself and became a demon and went along with destiny while Miquella used love and there version of math and sciences to try and make a better world. At that point you might as well say Miquella is Obito because they both have a cocoon transformation
"As above so below", as per the hermetic teachings means for the creation (below) to ascend and become more as its divine creator (above) through the acquisition of knowledge and higher states of consciousness. I do not believe it has any relevance to what's shown in the trailer. Stoked for the dlc and awesome breakdown!
Morgoth and Mogh are Godfrey's sons and are also named with M. I have a feeling he is either Godfrey's son or he's Marika's eldest son from before she rose to godhood
Someone pointed out on a different video I saw, almost looks as though there are roots reaching into the sky, above the branch canopy. Strengthens the "as above, so below" theme.
17:23 I remember there was some speculation along the lines that the Erdtree had burnt once (causing the ash piles during the first visit) and that the golden tree we see is only an illusion. The interview doesn't confirm or deny the burning, but it seems the tree was always golden.
as badly as i want a miquella ending to the main game, im pretty sure miyazaki has confirmed there will not be any endings added to the base game unfortunately :(
![Shadow of The Erdtree | Story & Ending Explained [Lore]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/StWOECzhSik/mqdefault.jpg)
![Blox Fruits Dragon Rework Update [Full Stream]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EqDAp8udhm0/mqdefault.jpg)
Thank you everyone for checking out my take on Shadow of the Erdtree
Let me know your thoughts and speculations below!
So excited for this, tytyty
My pleasure! Enjoy@@poopmachine71
Hey ST! I wanted to note that based on the visuals for Messmer (with two snakes seeming coming out of his shoulders) I would recommend you and other Elden Ring fans check out the mythological story of Zahak, The Snake King! There's a great OSP video about him here on RUclips, and I think said mythology could be a major clue about the sort of character Messmer might be. In your own video you mention Dragon communion, and a major part of The Serpent King’s turn to evil was the eating of something he shouldn’t have (in the myth’s case, brains). Just wanted to let you know about this idea because I’ve not seen anyone else bring up this idea in other breakdown videos.
Hey buddy! Thanks for letting me know, I will investigate as I plan to do an EVEN deeper dive in the future@@morcbus123
I wanted to deposit my thoughts here about the origins of Marika and Radagon, I think the DLC will most likely show Marika's origins and how she became a goddess, I was wondering if the old man and the apparently pregnant woman with her hand on her stomach in the painting (who is clearly not Marika since you can clearly see that she has very well hidden but visibly black hair) are Marika's parents and the DLC has already confirmed that this is where she became a goddess, I was theorizing about Radagon always being Marika and I think it's very plausible that they were always the same thing, the only thing that seems to contradict this is that Marika says that Radagon hasn't become her yet, he hasn't become a god yet, I'll get to it about this later but I think this is not saying that Radagon was always a separate entity but rather that at that moment he was physically separated from Marika and would become her again, the preceptor's mask says that it has the representation of a sewn mouth, to symbolize that they would be keeping all of their lord's secrets, but what secrets Radagon could possibly have that he wanted them to keep secret, it only makes sense if he wanted to keep the fact that he was Marika even if possibly physically separated from her at that moment, and the death texts of Marika's Relatives appears as a defeated demigod for Rykard and Radahn, but only appears as a defeated legend for Rennala Godfrey and Malekith who could also be considered as Marika's Family, implying that they are not demigods simply for family considerations, the fact that Miquella and Malenia were born Empyreans because they were born from a single god and the Japanese text says that their birth was vulnerable may indicate that this is due to the fact that Marika and Radagon share the same DNA and that is why they are born Empyreans already that therefore they would have 100% divine blood, which, being from the same person, would be the same as incest, making their births vulnerable,
my take on the floating Miquella rune that appears at the beginning of the trailer is that it will be the substitute to the guidance of grace, acting as the checkpoints in the Lands of Shadow. remember Miyazaki said we would follow Miquella's footsteps like we followed the guidance of grace, and that it wouldn't make much sense to have guidances of grace in a place Marika wishes to conceal.
That’s a great theory!
Totally agree
True. And this is probably also why in the Lands of Shadow there's a leveling up system different from the main game that only exists here, this might also be under the influence of Miquella as well.
How do you know they have a different leveling system? And what kind of system would it be? Just curious
Lovely !
mohg:kidnaps miquella and tries to make him his consort
miquella who already went to the shadow realm: i'm 4 parallel universes ahead of you
Common Mohglester L
When Mogh results to be the actual victim lmao
I feel like mohg was also in the shadow realm. He comes out of miquella in the bossfight cutscene. Assuming we enter the dlc via his hand, mohg might have done the same..
Trying to be consort to a discarded corpse basically.
@@cyrus2306i thought that was him communing with his blood goddess or something
40 minutes off a 3 minute trailer, I fucking love this man
Genius, pure genius
God people online are so dumb and praise literally anything..😂
13:55 this makes sense. Miyazaki takes a lot of inspiration from the Psychoanalyst Carl Jung who wrote at length about the process of individuation(basically self actualization or enlightenment).
In order to achieve this state, the individual must integrate their "Shadow" or dark side in order to become whole(think of a yin-yang).
The process also involves combining one's animus with their anima(masculine and feminine energies) which is reflected in Miquella's androgynous appearance.
Sounds as blasphemous as Rykard 😂
i have always interpreted Miquella's "terrifying" allure sort of like Zeus; more of a "holy crap, he's so dazzling and radiant we humans cannot comprehend it." when Semele asked to see Zeus's true form, he said no, but she insisted anyway, she was fried to a crisp because she couldn't understand it/grasp it/her body couldn't withstand. Miquella has always given off those vibes to me.
my interpretation is how he is able to inspire others to follow him and bring people together, one thing is seeing just miquella the other is seeing him with what is the (probably biggest) and most varied army in history
Yeah I tend to agree. For a being to be able to wield love so fully that it absolves and purifies the human heart is both awe-inspiring and terrifying.
I could be wrong here, but when I look at items like the bewitching branch, I think the real thing that makes him terrifying is he's "too" loving. He's like an overprotective mother that goes way too far. So far that he's willing to mind control people in the name of love.
He's the "biblically accurate angel" of the demigods. Blinding radiance, unknowable power, etc
Zeus was also kind of a terrifying selfish prick so it's not mutually exclusive
When that character in the trailer says that Miquella's power is "terrifying", I think it's because the fanbase as a whole hasn't truly understood how his power works. All throughout the game there are references to how everyone around him comes to "like" him. A couple of items almost describe it as a compulsion that is uncontrollable, seemingly natural in how people come to idolize him. It's decently clear that he does have some power over the emotions of other, or at the very least the power to influence the way others perceive him. So if you have someone who can almost force you to see them as "good" or as a "friend", then what happens if they force you to love them? What happens if they force you to obsess over them, truly idolize them like a god? I think that's why Miquella is truly terrifying as an Empyrean. He just may have to power to force you to perceive him as a god. After all, where exactly does one draw the line between "love" and "worship"?
I had this thought too. We don't know that Miquella is definitely a good guy. How do you fight someone you're compelled to love or worship? How do you even question their motives? That is a scary power if they don't have the purest intentions.
maybe that's why the tarnished are so important, they are untouched by grace and maybe have a resistance to miquella's compulsion.
We know he grew disillusioned with the golden order because it couldn’t help Melania, and so he sought other methods and that’s how Unalloyed Gold came about. Unalloyed Gold doesn’t seem to be compatible with the Golden Order so while he may not be antagonistic he most certainly wasn’t compatible with the ruling power at the time.
he does seem to have peoples' best interests at heart given his empathy towards those spurned by the golden order, but you can definitely get the impression that he's willing to go to great lengths to see his goals realized. You have to wonder if the Haligtree footsoldiers who blow themselves up to "light his way home" came to that idea of their own volition...
It'd be one of the most terrifying and hilarious things ever if Miyazaki went full berserk and makes miquella who's essentially Griffith in looks and in description, cause an eclipse(which essentially casts a shadow on the world) and commences his path to God hood. I mean it's all there for the taking
The thing that get me the more excited is that it seems we will get a lot of info about the Crucible.
The Crucible was the bestial prehistoric era before the Erdtree, that was in fact overshadowed by the Golden Order. The Omen curse is a manifestation of it btw.
Horns, wings and claws were considered pure at that time, before being seen as heresy by the GO.
We saw giant beasts like the porcupine rhino using crucible thorns, the Omen dancers, the Bear incantation or the Crucible wings, all of that is refering to the Crucible imo
Also, Ordovis and Siluria, were named after the Ordovician and Silurian eras, that are the second and third eras of the Paleozoïc period. The Paleozoïc is where most of the complex lifeforms originally apeared (basically it's the irl counterpart of the crucible). The first Paleozoïc era was the Cambrian, so it means that we could encounter the "first" Crucible Knight that is related to the Cambrian era
I love Crucible stuff, time to master the bonk and the beast within
Awesome analogies and I believe you're on the right track because I have been noticing the same things. I believe Miquella is Mycelia from Mycology and Helphen's Steeple etymologies go back to/translate as Hyphae's Temple, which are trees and mycelium. The Two Fingers also look like Hypha/Chromosome
I did an interesting observation today, if you have a chance go to a walking mausoleum and take a really good look at the dead tree they have all of them share the same model of dead tree and is identical to the shadow of the eardtree.Are the mausoleum connected to the land of shadow? Is the eclipse not an event that has to happen in the lands between but a the actual shadow lands after all what is an eclipse but the moon obscuring the sun, and lest remember that the sun in the LB has relations with sin and curses so the been in the shadow of the eardtree may symbolize been in the eclipsed lands.
H@@marcoasierrabernal4893 HOLY SHIT, that's a awesome observation! They're definitely connected to Miquella, on some level! I've got to search the eclipse fortress for lore clues too!
I'm also super excited for the crucible stuff (actually currently prepping a crucible knight build for the DLC). But I think the bear incantation specifically might be more related to dragon communion, since runebears have visual connection to dragon communion (they even used to drop dragon hearts before release) and also it just looks like a dragon communion incantation.
Miquella "divesting his flesh" may mean he's become a body less spirit like Melina or Torrent. Considering we see him riding Torrent in the preview shot, it makes sense for them to be of a kind. It also is reminiscent of Ranni's plot to get rid of her body, so I wonder if we'll find out that Miquella found a similar way to die a false death. Considering the Golden Epitaph, whatever he's trying to do must be very important for him to do an act that calls back to Godwyn's death
Y'all come up with the dumbest shit sometimes I swear
@@dustincarroll7296😂😂😂
Hands down, Smoughtown, you deserve a honorary diploma for being able to put up a 40+ minutes video out of a trailer. Have you considered writing a book I'd pay actual money for it
Hahah thanks bud! Appreciate the kind words and glad you enjoyed.
Re a book - I'll have a think about that!
Wild Guess: At the end of it all, we become Miquella's Consort. Cause that's what bros do
I'm a gaymer
"bros"
We beat Mogh phisically and emotionally
Cool
Shoutout to all the women playing the game 🙃
Miyazaki said the DLC won't add a new ending to the game, but who knows, maybe it could change an existing ending.
17:48 “a culture before the Erdtree?” If i recall correctly in the base game we learn about the Crucible being a sort of worshipped symbol before the Erdtree. Maybe its gonna have a role to play here seeing as the lion is covered in horns which are one of the symbols of the Crucible. Also the giant flame basket enemy also features horns and is quite literally a walking crucible.
What if the omen curse used to be seen as a blessing because of its crucible resembling thorns?
@Bennieboy918 holy shit, it would add to why omens are shunned so much, there was really a power there that Marika was scared or jealous of
@@brandoncochran5318what’s so odd is that mogh kidnapped miquella (we still don’t know exactly why) and the blood flame which is oddly similiar to the flame in the trailer is a “blood oath incantation, granted by the lord of blood” according to the description from the blood flame incantation
The crawling porcupine/rhino beast also have the same sound effect and particles when it uses its spikes than when we uses crucible incantations.
I bet it will be called "Aspect of the Crucible: Thorns"
This was my first thought. He couldn't tell us the name of the giant fire enemy because it has most likely the name Crucible in it. Maybe Crucible Golem? Howewer, due to the timeline, before the age of the erdtree there was the age of the Crucible. If the Land of Shadows is the place where Marika set food and if Marika disconnected this realm from the lands between to start the age of the erdtree, I would go as far as saying that this culture has to be the crucible.
35:53 I think messmers dialogue towards marika is more so mocking or ironic. When he says "mother would thou truly lordship sanction in one so bereft of light?" He isnt allying with marikas decision to call back a tarnished to become lord, instead he's like "really? This guy? This is beneath even you mom."
Oh, I thought that that was a given. We could be wrong, but I never thought that it was something encouraging towards those "bereft of light". It just seems like he's saying "mother, isn't this person too unworthy to be lord? Are your standards really that low?"
@@mastermarkus5307 oh yeah, he definitely thinks that we're unworthy in either instance. What im saying is that in this dialogue he's making fun of marika rather than expressing concern for her "poor" choices.
That is hard to believe when he has a stone wall with her image on it...and not in a 'mocking' or 'ironic' image...
Somebody in an Elden Ring Facebook group pointed out that there is a lore ghost outside the *Impaler* Catacombs that says something like "Merika, he is your unwanted child". Maybe they've been hinting at his all along
That ghost is outside the church of pilgrimage and is looking towards the wandering mausoleum and it also says that the mausoleum is cradling said unwanted child.
The only things outside the impaler's catacombs are 3 dragonflies and a trina's lilly
Murica*
There’s also a random patch of an abnormally large amount of smoldering butterflies behind the nearby minor erdtree
@@gnarcissist7669 the catacombs you are referring to are called tombsward catacombs. The impaler's catacombs are southeast of the bridge of sacrifice, close to where you fight the alabaster lord.
@@Volition366 TRINA = MIQUELLA. Miquella is related to Messmer, Messmer is in the The Impaler being referenced by the catacombs.
MIYAZAKI IS A GENIUS!!!!!
Im so glad you took some time to read some interviews before making your initial theory video. So many videos of folks running with preconcieved notions like they have been confirmed when the opposite is actually been stated by Miyazaki.
Yeh I wanted to take some time. let my thoughts percolate and read the surrounding media
exactly like they are losing the plot lol
considering the Vlad the Impaler and Dracula connection to Messmer's title of Impaler, it's worth noting that Dracula means 'son of the dragon'.
This is an interesting parallel I wonder if there's more that will be revealed when the dlc drops
@@kt2official597 Messmer=Marika+Placidusax
It's worth pointing out that in what little we have of Celtic mythology, one of the source inspirations for Elden Ring, the Land of Shadows was at once both the afterlife and the land of faerie. It was a very real place, just... offset from what we could see and hear...
14:36 If Miquella's rune, this could be the new Sites of Grace that Miyasaki mentioned we'd be encountering in Miquella's footsteps.
It could also be Messmer's. There's a theory that he's their third sibling due to the butterflies and naming convention, so his rune would also look like theirs. And the way his snake coils on his spear in the key art looks just like the rune.
never clicked so fast
Fr 😂
Lol absolutely no hesitation. SmoughTown and Vaati are always immediate clicks
Facts I been watching them 12 hour videos for bedtime 💀💀
Hahahahaha I did the same thing as soon as it came on my feed
Saaaame!!😂
Messmer is just fascinating, I'm so excited to see more of him in the DLC. His aesthetic seems to be 'heresy against the Erd Tree' (hair of the fire giants, snake motifs, draconic eyes, and some kind of fire magic) which would make a lot of sense if he's Marika's unwanted child and upset about it. But I also like your theory that he and Marika may be allied because it'd be interesting to see her intentions explored a little more.
Excellent video as always dude! This is going to be a great year for Elden Ring :D
You could say Mesmer is... mesmerizing
I hope there’s a lot more to him than meets the eye. Like maybe, he was sent to the Land of Shadow both as a form of exile and a duty foisted upon him by Marika to oversee its denizens and the Shadow Tree.
I’ve always thought that Miquellla has a staggering amount of thematic ties to Griffith. And we know how he turned out. But not to say Miquella’s intentions don’t come from green grass roots but I think his sheer potential is what’s terrifying. The “what if” factor of this ever transcending being taking a turn to darkness….hopefully he uhhh, takes the news about his sister well. As a brother myself I wouldn’t take the news that some pothead solo’d my sister over and over very well.
Great video! You’re always my go-to channel for all things lore. Appreciate the time it takes to put these together.
But one I think worth mentioning is that at the end, when Miquella gestures up towards the tree, it appears there’s no longer any visible drapes or “veil”.
So while it’s impossible to know Miquella’s true purpose here, I think it’s reasonable to assume it involves “unveiling” the Land of Shadow in some way. Who knows what for
I’d also like to point out that base of the Erdtree is also not in Leyndell, but is actually in the water and on the cliff south of Altus. It would make sense for the land of shadow would be where Erdtree shadow is deepest, at the base of its trunk.
Random observation: Fought Morgott again last night and noticed something during his intro cutscene that I always found odd. The demigod thrones are not equi-distant or anything but there's an unusually large gap between the throne of Godwin and the thrones of Malenia/Miquella. Perhaps this gap is where Messmer's throne was/should be?
Also I read in another Miyazaki interview that he said that there WOULD NOT be a new ending added to the base game by the DLC. I'm hoping he's lying/misdirecting to surprise us but I'm ultimately not holding out much hope for a secret Miquella ending.
Don't you mean Godrick? Morgott never mentions Godwyn
@@MinerDineryeah and he wouldn’t mention Godwyn because Godwyn died before the shattering and couldn’t have been a willful traitor.
@@MinerDiner Yes he does. When Morgott is descending the steps, he cites the names of each Demigod that sat on the various thrones. First one he mentions is "Godwyn the Golden".
@@lordtrinen2249 You're literally mis-remembering who he mentions. Morgott says "Godrick the Golden", not "Godwyn the Golden".
@@MinerDiner I just rewatched the cutscene. Turns out, you're right. Though I'm surprised in hindsight that it's Godrick and not Godwyn, seeing as how he's basically Marika's grandchild while the rest are her direct children. Also I think that's the only time Godrick is ever referred to as "the Golden". Normally that's Godwyn.
I like how the shadow of the Erdtree isn’t represented as a literal shadow behind the tree but like a veil Marika draped over or from the top of the Erdtree. It isolated only what she wanted hidden and then she built the rest of her realm on top of the veil, allowing both to coexist at the same time. The way it looks, it could be alluding to the canopy of her bedchamber, but what if it’s several veils she placed over time? Like these all used to be separate lands, but they came together over time as Marika felled more opposing realms. The environments shown in the trailer are so diverse. They said the land would be bigger than Limgrave, but at least Limgrave had a pretty consistent landscape. To have such huge diversity, makes me think these are different realms and cultures squashed together. I dunno. This is gonna be fun to experience in a few months. I can’t wait!
I love this but idk it feels like it be too much like the plot of Dark Souls. Or maybe it's 3 where it's specifically different lands squeezed together
Stupid theory about what the Erdtree really is.
Imagine this… the tree being strangled is the crucible and the leech is actually the Erdtree. It drains its sap and gave Marisa the power to seal off the shadow lands, the cupped build is some kind of transporter to our world. The Erdtree in our world is like an over coat of the original(crucible). Like when you walk in to challenge radagon the glow fades and the inner portion is a hollowed out stump, also the roots don’t seem to match.
that tree or burned tree is most likely the crucible. When Marika arrived in the lands between it was during when the erdtree wasn’t even sprouting and it’s well known it was during the age of the crucible.
it’s why there’s a lot of omen horns, Crucible spells (we saw 3 in total), and primal life all over the place in this trailer.
My guess to tie the story together is when the age of the crucible is seen its alway represents a bunch of twigs coming from the a stump or a bigger tree, kinda like grafting a perfect plant.
Marika probably saw a perfect sapling sprouting and she took it and that became the Erdtree, probably leaving a lot of damage in her wake.
So if that’s the case we will most likely get a lot of lore on the age of crucible and the omen curse itself.
I know it’s out of the way from the video itself but it’s cool to look at different aspects of what’s going on in the trailer.
My impression from the trailer is that Messmer is a Satan-figure: He has snake & dragon imagery, wields fire, rules over a kind of hell, and depending on the story, he might also have the banished angel who betrayed their divine parent aspect (or punishes sinners on their god's command). The Vlad the Impaler connection you mentioned, and this also connects with the Satan association. He seems to embody everything heretical (Dragon communion, flames, snakes) Furthermore, his name is a reference to Franz Anton Mesmer & the concept of mesmerism, which also fits the Satan theme as a hypnotizer or seducer
My guess is that the DLC gonna take place in Eochaid "a lesser, long-vanished domain". I also think Messmer may be somehow connected to House Marais "the family of executioners who presided over the Shaded Castle". The SHADED Castle...🤔 Depraved perfumers there wear robes with the depiction of two thin red snakes entwining a tree. Talking about hints in the base game this makes a lot of sense. Waiting to see if it's true when the DLC kicks in
hands down best theory i’ve seen about the dlc
I think this ‘as above so below’ is the main theme. The snake that adorns Messmer is sharing a body with two heads, signifier of an Ouroboros which is also present in the expansions title text.
I think I found the alchemy reference here, Miquella is in trying to make an "unalloyed" world which I would interpret as wanting to separate either the noble from the mundane, the mind from the body, gods from mortals or something like that to make the world more pure. I keep getting more and more excited for this.
I think it's important to point out the they were never saints line is intended to point out that just because the people of the land of shadows are suffering and that they lost to marika who did some really terrible things doesn't make them 100% trustworthy or automatically good people
the thing on messmer's spear, the as above so below, thing you mentioned reminds me of the symbol on the back of the confessor's cape
The thing i find most intransparent about messmer is when he came to the shadow land. If he is a child of radagon, that means that either he was only sent here fairly recently, if we assume that radagon did not exist during godfreys time as lord. If we assume the opposite, and that messmer was stationed there from the very beginning as soon as marika "left", it would mean that either he is not a child of radagon, or radagon had always existed which has huge implications as well.
I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't marika and radagon the same person? Lol
Yeah they are the same person idk what this guy is yapping about
@@Hideyourtoes_miyazaki marika and radagon share the same body, but they are clearly different in regards to mind and beliefs, and it is unclear when radagon came into being, whether he always was a part of marika and it just didn't show, or if he only appeared during the war against the carians. If marika and radagon are the same person, why does marika shatter the elden ring while radagon tries to repair it? Are they just stupid? Doing it for shits and giggles?
Also, radagon has red hair which is related to the giants, so maybe he was created as a result of marika defeating the giants, perhaps a side effect of cursing the last fire giant to protect the flame for eternity.
You know, Smough actually has a great video on this topic. You should watch it, and if you already watched it, watch it again because you clearly didn't pay attention.
@@TheXientistI was gonna say something similar I was curious why would Radagon have giant traits if they hate the giants.
Everything said in this video echoes all the crazy thoughts I've had since the trailer dropped. You really are the best lore channel out there i seriously think this interpretation is spot on
Smough is the only person on this planet able to extract 40 minutes worth of lore content off a trailer, insane bro.
I always saw it as his power to sway people, to make them devoted to him utterly without even trying just by his nature is indeed terrifying because it is in a way a type of unconscious brainwashing. He has the ability to sway entire nations, enemies and people just with his presence. Rather than he just has pure intentions and the speaker is conservative about change.
People who keep their distance from Miquella are right to be terrified that he can just influence people to his will without even trying. Imagine having a friend, an individual suddenly become a hopeless fanatic to someone just because they spent time near them. We even saw how his power is so great its a detriment to him by how bewitched Mohg became. I'm sure he was already interested in Miquella and had his own desires but combined with his power the man became obsessed and ended up stealing his body away convinced they were going to start a new dynasty together. Who's to say how much of Mohg's "love" for Miquella was amplified/warped by Miquella's inherent power of devotion.
It reminds me a bit of Paul in Dune and his power over people. How he even laments on seeing powerful individuals, friends with their own wants and wisdom become nothing more than hopeless worshippers at his feet which he sees as a lessening of someone. What terrible things that leads to despite his 'best intentions' and trying to avoid it.
It’s not miquella in the cocoon I’m p sure. The way Miyazaki danced around placing a name on the cocoon arm in the interview while still mentioning miquella’s journey to the land of shadow strengthens that theory. The arm really does look much more like messemer. We shall see what the deal truly is in June
my theory goes as follows, messmer has inherited everything in opposition of the erd tree. the snake from rykard which is adorned by stone wings which is dragons, the dragons eyes from dragon communion, blood flame etc. since this realm is in the shadow of the erd tree everything that is cast aside is thriving in this realm, miquella came willingly here but miquella is also in opposition of the erdtree which then means he would thrive here aswell.
They found that him opposing the erdtree was a mistranslation and that Marika actually supported miquella
This might be a long shot but I need someone to hear me out, what if the land of shadows is under the lands between, like way under. If u look at the tree in the screen shots it starts orange and then where it appears to have another tree taking over it turns gold. And the way it branches out can almost be seen as roots.
I bring this up because there’s those theories where there was a primordial force before the erdtree (like the crucible) and it’s speculated the erdtree took over as the reigning force. And so the land of shadows is the world taken over and left behind by queen Marika, leaving all things she deemed heretical to the golden order. The land of shadows could be over shadowed in the literal sense where it was covered by the erdtree and its roots and the lands between was created on top of it, and in a metaphorical sense because that’s where marika rose to god hood and then took everything golden with her into the new world she planned on creating, leaving the world a shadow of its former self.
It’d also explain the absence of of grace, the sky being all dark, maybe marika’s bed chamber is supposed to be a call back to her origins or representative of how the erdtree literally veils over the land of shadows, obscuring it from history
It's like what she did with the Nox: she made their cities crash underground after they betrayed her. And maybe that's why Fia had that fricked dream in the Darkroot depthswith a rather similiar sky, which would be close to the Shadowland then. And that could also be why Godwyn's flies of death appear around the crippled tree, like you see in the first artwork. I'm torn now on whether or not the Shadow tree is the remains of the crucible or just the Helphen.
I love this because many aspects outlawed by the Golden Order are found underground. Scarlet Rot has an ocean down there, for all we know Godwyns body only started to mutating after possibly being buried being placed closer to the Land of Shadows. Also what if it wasn't just there suffering that caused the underground merchants to fall to the Frenzy Flame but also the fact they were also placed closer to the LOS
tbh I think it’s literally in the center of the map, each of the sky colors shrouded in shadow we see in the trailer representing the areas in the dlc that are closest to the main games landmass. red caelid, blue liurna, gold atlus. if you zoom in on the erd trees base on the map that would be where the end of the dlc is and the veil is literally disguising it as an ocean. I only think this because Miyazaki talks about it as this physical place in the lands between that’s been separated, and veiled it’s possible each divine tower also corresponds to the location of a major dlc boss.
Out of all of this actually insightful and researched speculation, nothing had me hootin' and hollerin' more than "blood star video in the next week or so". I'm always so drawn to the concepts that have 3 or 4 item descriptions dedicated to them and nothing else. Excited to see your input as always
I'm going to throw a wild one and say Miquella and Messmer is one something like a Marika/Radagon deal. In the broken cocoon the arm is insanely long and does not feel like it belongs to someone eternally young. And the line "touch the arm" in the trailer shows Messmer and I was instantly focused in his insanely long arms.
Agreed. Messmer is the result of Mogh's interference.
Consider instead that perhaps the reason it seems to be Messmer's arm is because he's somehow taken control of the transformation, reaching out from the Land of Shadow and using Mohg's accursed blood to transform Miquella's discarded husk for his own ends.
According to the flavor text poem, Miquella divested himself of his flesh; I really do think that this is meant to be taken literally, and that Miquella no longer has any use for, or interest in, his physical body- or at least *that* physical body.
Perhaps Messmer took advantage of this, and has been guiding Mohg's forced metamorphosis of Miquella's remains in an attempt to return to the Lands Between from his exile, allowing him to pursue his own Age. Perhaps Mohg has been tricked- not by Miquella, but by *Messmer,* who seems to have some sort of association with the Formless Mother that I propose predates Mohg's own.
Perhaps that's why the withered arm will allow us to travel to the Land of Shadow, despite Miquella having divested himself of it (and presumably thus no longer having a connection to it, spiritually). Perhaps it's actually *Messmer* whose connection to the Land of Shadow we are commandeering to use that place.
Consider as well that the cocoon's site of grace is called the *Cocoon of the Empyrean.* Not of Miquella. Of *the Empyrean.*
@@corvisqueerI like this theory but the last point doesnt stand, all the empyreans are women/androgynous (Miquella) and need a womb to house the elden ring
@@corvisqueerI really love this take. I think Miquella being Mezzmer was too obvious but some of the few bits of evidence for it is rly the fact Miquellas body is becoming like a vessel for Mezzmer is so much better
@@Monsterassassin3there's zero evidence you need to be female to be an Emperyean
I bet the lands of shadow align with the inner sea in the middle of the map. It lies right beneath where one could expect the Erdtree to cast a shadow, and fits the size description of roughly as large as Limgrave.
💯 and the divine towers surround it perhaps the curtain rails of the drapes
The name Mesmer the impaler brings to mind, vlad the impaler, the main inspiration for Dracula. I wonder if Mesmer is a vampire of sorts, draining or absorbing the sins from other entities. That could explain the chimerical look seen in his sigil and clothing, and really whole aesthetic. It’s practically everything you can think of that is sinful in the lands between. Sin eating sin, an ourobos, if you will.
Maybe instead of the Marika/Radagon thing it's a yin & yang type of situation where Miquella is the good formed by the "bad" (marika sort of shattering into radagon) und Mesmer is the "Anti-Miquella/Miquella" where he is formed by the "good". And good solely meaning he is the imbodiement of Miquellas Will hence maybe miquella reached somehow a other domain of becoming a godlike being like the greater will.
Just a Noob guessing things. Dont take it to serious 😅
Dracula also means 'Dragon' so the Dragon Communion & Drake Knight connotations our boy made in this video regarding Messmer the Impaler might not be too far off?
I still wonder if mesmer has anything to do with the object which has impaled marika in the base game
Honestly, I'd be surprised if Messmer was the final boss of this DLC. I could see him being maybe the penultimate fight, but I guess we'll see.
I think Messmer is also something Marika is "hiding in the Erdtrees shadow" so to speak. I imagine being banished/trapped in the Land of Shadow would make him no friend to his mother.
I also think considering some of Miquellas drives/goals, he might be allied or working with Messmer to achieve them.
Few other speculations I like:
Mesmer the Impaler - maybe he got this title becouse he is the one who impaled Fire Giants on erdtree stakes in mountaintops
Shadow Lands were originally in middle section of the map that seems to be missing. Next to/under current Erdtree and literally in it's shadow.
Maybe whole land is not misplaced but hidden. There is an item that lets you take form of an object - as party of animation it veils you in cloth (slightly similar to what we see in the sky). According to item discription its known as "Marika's Mischief"
The timeline does not add up. He is a child of marika and Radagon going by the color of his hair. Radagon married Marika long after the war of the giants
@@giacomorinaldi8803that's with the assumption that Radagon didn't always exist. Also possibly Radagon was cursed with Red Hair for what Marika did to the Giants so Mezzmer was as well
@@jeambeam3173
To be honest, the japanese wording for Giant Red braid is somewhat ambiguous: it is not clear wether it is talking about a curse FROM the giants or if it is actually referring to Marika cursing the last fire giant to slavery to guard the Flame of ruin. If it is the latter (which is most likely since Marika DID unambiguously curse the last giant according to his incantation description) then Radagon despises his natural red hair because it is a reminder of their shared cursed fate in servitude of Marika
@@giacomorinaldi8803 trust me I know everything is very speculative unless very specifically said otherwise
Great analysis, as always. The vibe I'm getting is this: the Numen folk, Marika's people, were rumored to come 'from another world'. Perhaps this was the Shadow Lands. Perhaps her tribe lived there prior, amongst the misbegotten en omen like creatures. Perhaps, at that time, they were 'godless', the Greater Will having vested themselves in the Dragons. When this fell through, perhaps the Greater Will, probably via the Elden Beast, offered Marika the Elden Ring and with it they created the Erdtree. This act apparently split the world, with Marika and her chosen fellows 'ascending' to the lands between whilst her old home remained in the shadow of her new Erdtree.
This, I would suspect, is where Marika made the pact with the Greater Will. Perhaps this is the thing Miquella wants to uproot entirely, given his goals. I do like your analogy for Heaven and Hell in this. This would make Messemer something of a Lucifer/Satan figure - a fallen child of God who rules Hell and punishes the sinners.
Amazing theory and video!! After I first saw the trailer and Miyazaki's interviews I also thought that this shadow world was a dumping ground for all the heretical. However my idea of Mesmer was that he started some form of rebelion against Godfrey and Marika that was so devastating that it started the over-all hatred for the heretical aspects of Mesmer's design within Erdtree society, and eventually they managed to 'seal' Mesmer away within this shadow world. Though this take would be invalidated if he is a child of Radagon and Marika :')
Yeh defo a possibility re Messmer - at this stage I think he was 'initially' granted lordship by her but has become twisted over time.
An interesting note I just noticed about the rune we see in the trailer, it looks to me like the convergence of a star and a moon. an eclipse maybe? Which would track with Miquella since we know he tried to use an eclipse to give Godwynn a true death. It could also represent the two sides of Miquella, the star being his normal radiant/benevolent form and the moon being his darker sleep oriented St. Trina form.
I don't think Messmer will be the final boss.
From software tends to hide things in dlc.
He will be a highlight but I think there's something or someone else. Maybe something he's working to suppress
Most likely correct!
Miquella travels the path to become the greatest trap the lands have ever seen.
when mesmer said "MOTHER" it could be talking about "the formless mother", it is the god associated with blood flame
But who is he critical of being Elden Lord then? Mohg?
Killed the breakdown, Smough! Your channel continues to be my favorite Fromsoft Lore.
Cheers Patrick - so grateful for your support.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Miquella is the true final boss and antagonist of this expansion. There’s multiple item descriptions and dialogue (both in-game and in the trailer) that Miquella’s power to compel affection is terrifying. It would be great if the story revolves around resisting or giving into his compulsions if this is true. Many people have pointed out his power and his appearance are similar to Griffith (another berserk reference).
Malenia saying, “He is the most fearsome Empyrean of all,” and her subsequent fear of him gives further credence to the idea that Miquella is a more nefarious figure than wholly benevelont.
Excited to listen to your analysis of the trailer!! 😄
I find it interesting that if the Smouldering Butterflies do represent Messmer, and if he did partake in dragon communion, it's precisely these butterlies that Yura is contemplating as he tells us about the destructive effects of communion. It'd be funny if he knew about Messmer's tale all along and just never mentioned it because it wasn't necessary.
Hey Smough! One thing I noticed watching the trailer, was the seeming link between the draconic and the bestial in these shadow lands. The lion-dragon omen entity you mentioned of course being one aspect that seems to imply beasts taking a similar role to dragons, but also we see for instance the lion's roar incantation as a possible mirror to the dragon's roar, the large hippo-like boss as a possible mirror to the magma wyrm -- which we fight in a body of water, as opposed to lava, for added curiosity -- and the knight riding a bestial hog-like horse as a possible mirror to the dragon-horses of the draconic tree sentinels.
All in all so put together, this seems to me too intentional to be a coincidence. I'll be looking forward to seeing the lore implications of these apparent connections between the dragons in the realm of light, mirrored by beasts in the realm of shadows. And I'd be curious to hear your take on it, as well, when time allows :)
Have a good one!
What if Miquella compelled Mohg with his "love/worship powers" and its all a part of his 4D chess manuevers. Coz Messmer's body looks gangly and gross like whatever Mohg has done to Miquella's body, maybe Messmer under went a similar process and Miquella needed that to happen to create a gateway for the rider of Torrent to follow him into the shadowrealm
I very well can see the bloodflame being the magic he uses. But when I first saw him, I couldnt help but to think of the Giants Flame. The deep red and the fact that Messmer is of Radagon and Marika, with the unique red hair.
Then there's also the deep red flame at the dragon communion altars. Messmer's elongated limbs and of course, his serpent-esque eye. His fire could very well be that of the dragon communion.
Something else you might have missed in regards to Messmer: Both the wyrm incantations (magma breath and Theodorix's magma) share the deep red coloring and style that Messmer's flame has, further reinforcing his links to dragon communion. I do think that Messmer exhibits enough qualities to effectively make him an antithesis to the erdtree/golden order, but a substantial number of these fall under that dragon communion umbrella
I'm starting to believe that serpents are descended from dragons, specifically one of the theee missing heads of paarthurnax, thus possibly making them connected to the three fingers
Hello Smough,
I have started a new Elden Ring playthrough and I noticed Melina's voice is eerily similar to Miquella's in the trailer. I might even speculate that Melina is St. Trina or Miquella's alter ego after he was "burned and bodiless, placed by his mother at the foot of the erdtree", Melina's eye is also a purple hue similar to St. Trina's lilys and all the purple dream affectations in the game. Just a wild theory but I think I am on to something. And do not forget that Melina is the one who gives us torrent, Miquella's spectral/dream steed.
Also, if I am not mistaken, St. Trina is depicted as having one eye. The evidence is stacking up.
Great job as usual, I particularly enjoyed your take on crediting and using the community's ideas as well as yours. That is something missing in most of other lore creators videos. Thanks man
My first thought on Messmir before learning anything was that he was Miquella in a new form influenced by the blood Mohg fed him. It would be a possible explanation for the blood flame I suppose, but I'm not too certain on the hypothesis
Really good video, I think you’re on to something when talking about Merika appointing Messmer ruler over the shadow realm. thank you for sharing your thoughts!
I’ve been thinking about Messmers flame and can’t shake something. I too immediately thought of blood flame and/or thorn sorceries. But I noticed that the flame is black and red.
I reviewed the thorn sorceries and they don’t show flame at all, just thorns and blood.
Blood flame is a big possibility but none of the incantations, or even the fight with Mohg show black in the flame. The only place we see black and red flame is in the death rune as well as the black blade. It doesn’t make sense to me at the moment but maybe Messmer wields destined death?
Just noticed that some of Rykard’s stuff (Rykard’s Rancor) is black and red. However, the hue is different. Destined death is still a closer match.
The lion motif also exists on the stacked Omen/worm boss thing in the trailer. It looks like the beast head Horah Loux had. I have to wonder where Messmer is referenced in the base game
I’m probably not the only one in this camp but I am of the opinion that Messemer and Miquella are one and the same just like Radagon and Marika.
At first I was like "not again" but I'm wondering if the abilty to split caused problems.
This has me wondering if Mohg actually emerges from the Land of Shadow at the start of our fight with him? If so I wonder if he was searching for him?
SmoughTown don't say "Balltochin" challenge level IMPOSSIBLE
I don't think that's blood flame, rather blasphemous flame like Rykard's. When Messmer hits the Tarnished in the trailer it has the same effect as when you hit enemies with the Blasphemous Blade or the Devourer's Scepter, which is a different effect than blood flame weapons.
I can't overstate how excited I am for this dlc. This will be my first fromsoft experience going in blind from day one before all the tips and tricks. I got elden ring about six months after its release, fell in love, played DS1 and 3 and Bloodborne and Sekiro, all several times, but I always had help. I might still use some on this play through, but I will be figuring it out in real time with everyone else and compiling all the tips and tricks. So bloody excited.
I’ve noticed at least on a movement/control standpoint that I haven’t seen mentioned is the new dodge mechanics. For example against the red dancer, the small weaving away out of attacks. Or with messmer when the tarnished back handsprings away. I hope these are expanded on further as more analysis videos release.
I have not yet heard anyone say that is lion dragon boss is a grafted being 34:54
It's quite literally 3 godricks and a wish version of serrosh grafted together and I say that will all sorts of love
20:58 finally someone mentioned the sealed eye
It seems that the trailer hints heavily to inverted elements such as showcasing the carian statue dude and it looks like the "Tree" in the trailer could be upside down roots. This seems so cool although we already have the underground areas but the inverted gimmick worked in the tower maybe it have some bigger things it can do aswell.
The lands between, aka Midgard. So the remnants of the land above elden ring map can be seen in the ground all across the lands between, not sure if thats farum though. It makes sense though that the place where the shadow of erdtree takes place is down UNDER the map to complete the trio of above, middle and below. MAYBE even under the deeprot Depths etc. Like it's spreading in some weird yggdrasil shape...
IF this is the case, maybe it isn't roots spreading out in the shadow DLC. It could be another erdtree just inverted. The two erdtrees ABOVE and BELOW are fighting to stay alive, thats why the one in the main game is strong and healthy and the one in the DLC is crumbling, The deeproot depths there have roots all over, what if it's the roots from both trees??
It might be a bit of a stretch but if you look at Mesmers spear and then take a look at the dead giants on the mountaintops the kind of spear branch looking thing coming out the top of them looks eerily similar.
I was literally waiting for this video. Excellent work god I cant wait for this dlc.
Thanks so much - really pleased you enjoyed it
I cant wait either!
This is something I've seen online. Messmer's lack of presence in the main game might actually be explained as him being given the Nameless King treatment: In Limgrave, there's a catacombs called the "Impaler Catacombs". Next to the entrance is a ghost, who talks about an "unwanted child".
That ghost is on the complete other end of the region (in weeping peninsula actually too) and is at a completely different catacombs.
@@euclidYT
Plus, that stupid tomb is named after the spike trap on the ceiling. People really should stop copy-pasting every theory they find online
What is Messmer is the son of Mogh and Miquella? And the “mother” is not Marika, but Miquella’s feminine side (St Trina)? This would explain Messmer’s design being a merge between these two.
I believe the Misbegotten come from the Shadow lands. They are like mini lion forms compared to the Lion in this trailer.
It would seem that Mesmer had a hand in the dragon wars, evidenced by his association with dragon communion imagery. Which makes me wonder if many of the banished knights served mesmer.
He also seems to be associated with the mountain tops of the giants, and sin. Evidenced by the impaled giants.
For something more speculative, I wonder if this place was once the missing area of the main map, and if mesmers "purifying" flames could explain the vitrified faces of the divine towers.
Just my thoughts man. Love the videos!
One of the most amazing thing about the DLC is the theories. Maybe it's just me, but any time there is speculations online about a serie ,a gameor a film, you can get the broad picture pretty quick and every commentary says the same things. Maybe two or three little details diverging, but everyone get the big picture pretty quick. Not saying it's always right, but the theories quickly become one and a accepted narative until the release. With SOTET, I hear something new every video, thats so refreshing.
One thing I haven't seen anyone talking about is how the sun seems to have a greater presence in the Land of Shadow. Especially at the final part of the trailer, when you see Miquella's hand, there's strong sunlight coming from behind the shadow tree. Not to mention quite a lot of sun symbols.
@21:49 Amazing theory. Since hearing the name for the first time I try to convince people to research on the origins of this name. In the German language Messmer literally translates to Sexton in English, a loyal servant to the church, ringing the bells and tending the graves. Finally you gave me the answers I was looking for, thank you! Despite his appearance he is loyal to his mother and her order/plans. Since first watching the trailer I thought that his sinister nature perfectly fits with Marikas ruthless way of ruling over the Lands Between and your theory is the missing link.
I think that Messmer is the blood star taking Miquellas soulless body as a vessel, similar to how the greater will used Elden Beast as a vessel
Your coverage was one I was super excited for. My husband asked if you would incorporate the most lore significant item, *the Albinauric bloodclot* somehow 😂❤
Hahaha thank you so much! I'm sorry I let the Albinauric Bloodclot crew down :(
@@SmoughTown hey we still got 40 minutes of killer lore. Right as you were talking about the Haligtree it hit me that Malenia probably knew based on her "As I awaited his return" dialogue. I cannot wait for this dlc!!
I think the sigil on Messmer's spear is very similar to the doble serpent around the knife in the confessor's cape and the crepus's vial, the two finger's assasins brand. Wich may have some dire implications.
the main take ive been waiting for
I think the pink butterfly spell is like an AOE bewitching branch
As I was just playing Elden Ring again, I just saw the Abductor Virgins in Mt. Gelmir have snakes inside those chambers! Maybe the baby and the mother shown is Messmer and Marika, given the connections with the details? Maybe the name it itself, "Abductor", could mean something as well!
I think that the war was against a culture or faction that became the tarnished and it is what lead to them loosing grace, the voice when speaking abt the war says “your kind” or something which would be referring to the player therefore the tarnished. And the wicker man things were used to burn this faction then when they lost the war they were stripped of their grace
IMO, Miquella is following his mother's footsteps in order to become a god, such as his mother's path, this is what has been clear all along in the main game. In the Shadow Lands, is where Marika ascended as a goddess, and it's there where Miquella will achieve his goal. And it probably will have to deal with the undoing of what is sacramented by Marika in these lands.
Messmer is there to assure the continuity of what Marika built. So, the tarnished, by following Miquella's guidance, will have to fight against these rules and face Messmer, in order to grant Miquella's goal, and by also becoming Miquella's long waited Lord.
I believe there will be 2 possible endings for this story, depending on the actions that we take in the playthrough:
1) 1st where Miquella achieves godhood and purifies this realm, bringing an end to the Golden Order / outer gods influences, and unify the Lands (Shadow/Between). This would be the good/true ending, or similar to Ranni's.
2) And the 2nd possible outcome, is that his ascension to godhood makes him go full Griffith/Femto insane like, deceiving everyone, including all that fought for him:
- Malenia, even if we have the storytelling informing that Miquella had the "intention" to cleanse her from the Rot, he may just have used her as a tool to try to defeat Radahn, as Radahn's death is also a requisite to enter the Shadow Lands.
- Even his kidnap by Mohg while Malenia was out there fighting Radahn could have been calculated, by bewitching Mohg to be his Consort in the dinasty of blood, and intentionally had the cocoon removed, in a way that Miquella could get rid of his body such as Ranni did in the night of the Black Knives.
- And finally the betrayal against the tarnished who was able to permit Miquella's goal (by defeating Radahn, Mogh, Messmer).
All of this will lead to a bad ending, more horrifying than Frenzied Flame (GRIFFIIIIIIIITTHHHH!!!!)
Except there isn't alternate endings
Also the whole ohh Miquella is Femto crap is such horse shit. Like Miquella and Griffith have very little in common if anything there opposites Griffith only cared about himself and became a demon and went along with destiny while Miquella used love and there version of math and sciences to try and make a better world. At that point you might as well say Miquella is Obito because they both have a cocoon transformation
Every demigod seems to have two identities, so I wonder if Messmer's alternate identity is also someone new, or someone we've already met in-game.
"As above so below", as per the hermetic teachings means for the creation (below) to ascend and become more as its divine creator (above) through the acquisition of knowledge and higher states of consciousness. I do not believe it has any relevance to what's shown in the trailer.
Stoked for the dlc and awesome breakdown!
Morgoth and Mogh are Godfrey's sons and are also named with M. I have a feeling he is either Godfrey's son or he's Marika's eldest son from before she rose to godhood
Dung Eaters Crest looks similar to the Wicker Man's face. Maybe Dung Eater is a survivor and tries to exact revenge?
Someone pointed out on a different video I saw, almost looks as though there are roots reaching into the sky, above the branch canopy. Strengthens the "as above, so below" theme.
17:23
I remember there was some speculation along the lines that the Erdtree had burnt once (causing the ash piles during the first visit) and that the golden tree we see is only an illusion. The interview doesn't confirm or deny the burning, but it seems the tree was always golden.
as badly as i want a miquella ending to the main game, im pretty sure miyazaki has confirmed there will not be any endings added to the base game unfortunately :(
Yeh you are sadly right
Woke up from a nap, ready to watch this whole thing. So hyped for the dlc
I'm curious to see if The Land of Shadow is where we find out how Blaidd and Maliketh were "tailored" for Ranni and Merika.