Did Augustine Corrupt The Church With Gnostic Doctrine? Beyond Augustine Documentary - Jesse Morrell
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- Опубликовано: 14 окт 2024
- This video is a chapter out of Jesse Morrell's book, "The Natural Ability of Man: A Study on Free Will & Human Nature." Buy it here: biblicaltruthre...
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Beyond Augustine is a church history and theological documentary that examines the free will debate in light of the Early Church and the Gnostics. Did Augustine corrupt the church with Manichean or Gnostic doctrine? Is Calvinism or Reformed Theology really orthodox and historic Christianity, as Calvinists claim? Or are the Calvinists and Augustinians the spiritual descendants of the Gnostics and Manicheans? Were the Pelagians really the heretics in their free will debate with Augustine? These are the type of controversial questions Jesse Morrell examines in this documentary. www.OpenAirOutreach.com
John Calvin wrote, "Augustine is so wholly within me, that if I wished to write a confession of my faith, I could do so with all fullness and satisfaction to myself out of his writings."
Scary!
Problem is that it isn’t true. Augustine didn’t hold to salvation can never lost and grace can never be resisted, for starters.
Too bad Calvin never knew the Holy Spirit, such as many who hold to hellish 'reformed' doctrine.
@@johngraham1274Amen.
@@johngraham1274 John Calvin was a prized gift of God to the Church.
Whoa that is frightening 😢
I also used to be a Calvinist. But the spirit behind Calvinism isn’t the Holy Spirit. Thank the Lord for deliverance me from the lie from the enemy.
Praise the Lord! You have been set free from the snares of the devil. Calvinism = Devil.
I used to be a Calvinist as well. After reading Spurgeon as a young convert I was decieved into it but as I continued to read the Word I came out of it. Calvinists have an interpretation of Scripture which comes from Calvin and Luther, which comes from Augustine, which ultimately came from Gnosticism. Romans 1 says that man is "without excuse" and therefore he cannot be totally inable to obey God. That would be a perfect excuse for sin. So Romans does depict man as able to choose the contrary.
I am looking at doing my research paper on Augustine's gnostic affiliations prior to his conversion to Christianity affecting his worldview and his sinful nature of the flesh. Can you provide any sources that may help me argue essentially what you said, "Calvinists have an interpretation of Scripture which comes from Calvin and Luther, which comes from Augustine, which ultimately came from Gnosticism." Thanks
@@randysargent9073 Augustine's Conversion from Traditional Free Choice to "non-free Free Will" A Comprehensive Methodology by Kenneth Mitchell Wilson is a good place to start.
Is Spurgeon in your view unsaved?
@@JesusAlwaysIsGod
How did St. Augustine advocate for 'non free free will'?
@@nomore9004 Bro, that's the title of the book! 🤣 Do get the book and read it.
I’ve been wondering for years why Calvinists cling to Augustine so much, and how they could seemingly ignore certain teachings of the church fathers. This was a fantastic video. Thank you!
Because John Calvin quoted Augustine over 4,100 times. But Arminians are the other side of the same coin, they also start their systematic from total depravity.
You shouldn’t call them “Church Fathers”, that’s highly inappropriate for a Christian to say. Jesus said call no man Father except your Father in heaven. Cal them early Church Bishops, that’s what the Bible would have us call them. Just my advice, GOD Bless! ❤️
@@narrowistheway77 Good point
@@narrowistheway77 The Bible also says to call no man "teacher" or "instructor" in the sentence immediately after. Don't use those words either. Those words are still in the dictionary, and no one knows why. It's not like Aramaic is known as an ancient Semitic language that uses expressive and exaggerated language as an artistic form. Rather than just briefly stating an idea, Aramaic employs colorful metaphors, hyperbole, and dramatic imagery to convey meaning in an emphatic fashion. And remember to "pluck out your own eye." Let's not overlook the small details. Jesus warned against pridefully seeking titles for the purpose of self-exaltation, not against using them appropriately. "father" or "teacher" - these are venerable titles of respect used throughout Scripture. But Hesus REALLY meant you should pluck out that eye.
@@narrowistheway77 that’s a complete misinterpretation of scripture. Paul refers to Isaac as father, Stephen refers to Abraham as father, and Paul also says this:
”For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.“ 1 Corinthians 4:15
God is purging the Platonist/Gnostic/Greek philosophies from the body of Christ slowly but surely and will continue to do so as we expose them and affirm the truth of the scriptures. Thanks for this very informative video.
The Bible says all we like sheep have gone astray, we have all turned to our own way, therefore the Lord laid on Him the iniquity of us all. You don't deserve hell because of the nature God gave you at birth but because of the sinful choices you made after birth. That is why you need forgiveness through Jesus.
I thank God that I stumbled on this. I have battled this cult of calvinism for over 25 years yet never knew where the heritic calvin got it from. This is so healing for me. Thank you soooo much for the time and effort you put into this teaching.
Well put together. Wish I had known this years ago. Thank you very much for sharing truth! I attended a Bible College in my youth, was taught Augustine and Luther. It never added up then. I thought I was a Christian, I thought I knew Christ. 7 years ago, a true Man of God taught truth. I found out the Bible says over and over and over again we have a free will. A choice to obey or disobey. I found out that I must die to the flesh and fleshly desires daily, only by willingly submitting to Christ every day. For Samuel told King Saul, obedience is better than sacrifice. When the psalmist said he would set no evil thing before his eyes, it was a choice. Christ said that those that loved him would obey him. Those that love Christ will as Christ said, take up their cross daily and follow him. It is a choice, a free will. He would not have said that all liars would go to hell if it was not a choice. He would not have said that all adulterers would go to hell if is was not a choice. For Christ went further in is preaching to say that to look upon a woman with lust in your heart made you adulterer. If thoughts and intents of the heart are judged then it is a choice. If hating a person is the same as murder, it is a choice. When we were told to by Paul to bring every thought captive into the obedience of Christ, then it is a choice and a free will. Thank you Jesse and stay strong and steadfast. The Bible declares over and over that we would be hated of all men. Set your face like a flint. Few want to hear the real, gospel truth of the Bible, but there are a few of us. It has been a very lonely walk, but I wouldn't change a thing. Such joy and intimacy with Christ, I do not need the false fellowship of others.
There is a church that has always kept everything you say, and kept the faith given by Christ to the apostles. There I have found fellowship in the journey towards holiness that God commands of us and offers to us. It is the Eastern Orthodox Church. Come and see.
@@legofactory100 Salvation (justification) isn’t found in a church, it’s found in a Person. The completed work of Jesus Christ at Calvary. Ephesians 1:13 says you receive the promised Holy Spirit at the moment of belief.
Thank you, and amen. I have come upon your comment many years later, but I wanted to leave a note of thanks and encouragement nonetheless. ☺
I walked away from 34 yeas of the FILTHY SUNday (SUN god sun worship AKA the Papal vernal day of the day of the Sun, hasatans ICONIC false day of gathering) to study the ERRORS about Manichaeism theology, It's a nightmare of pure deception witchcraft LIES.
@@legofactory100 the Eastern Orthodox Church denies salvation by grace alone through faith alone
Praise God! Yes, it's been a long time coming. This was filmed over 2 years ago. I started editing it before this past Christmas of 2012 and it too much longer than I thought to edit it. But I am really glad with how well it came out.
Actually, it says right there the "drawing of the father" is teaching from Him, which He gives to "all." The problem is that not everyone learns from the teaching the Father gives them. God teaches us, thus influencing our free will, but not everyone submits and yields to that influence. Jesus said that if He was lifted up, He would draw all men unto Himself. And the Bible says the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared unto all men, teaching us, etc. God wants everyone to be saved.
Jesse, what a wonderful video! It is so very helpful to understanding. I grew up in Calvinism and taught Calvinism everywhere I went. I understand them. It is a very dangerous religion as are all. In 1991, The Lord delivered me and put me on a path to know the New Testament and the approximate 80 warnings about falling away, falling from grace, etc. It was a war to get free of all the false teachings from my teachers. How did I do this? I chose to believe the scriptures as written and apply them to my life. I also applied the warnings to myself, instead of saying "they were no longer for me, I am saved." This changed my life. Reader, If you have had teachers you have false teachings also.
Apostle Paul warned us about Augustine and the countless other false teachers who would arise. Charles Stanley teaches if you trusted Christ in the past, but now are living like the devil, you are still saved. Wolves are everywhere.
Per Paul, in Acts 20:29 “I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30 and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them. 31 “Therefore be on the alert, remembering that night and day for a period of three years I did not cease to admonish each one with tears.
"No one ever came to Calvinism without a false teacher". I know. I was one for many years. But God! Warren McGrew
You are spot on bro!
Warren McGrew This was also my story exactly as you described yours! After having come out of this lie and now that I can actually make out what I'm seeing and where I'm walking, I feel like I was in a fog my entire life due to this demonic teaching of Calvinism which strips a person from spiritual power over sin and to follow Jesus as it is written. It's like I was paralized by this poison infused into my veins and once I rejected it and cut myself off from the IV of Calvinism (these false teachers) it took a while for it to clear out of my system and for the truth as it is written to enter, nurture, and strength my body, soul and spirit and I received power and my life changed. But I surely was immediately met by vehement rejection and persecution and being cutoff by some of my relatives and friends who are deep in Calvinism. I finally experienced what Paul said to Timothy, that anyone desiring to live righteously will be persecuted.
God is good for bringing you to the truth! Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. My cousin and her husband are Calvinist and I started attending their church for their midweek service and one night their pastor started teaching on assurance of salvation and the Holy Spirit impressed my Spirit that what he was saying was wrong. He said "God wants us to have peace" and I thought "yeah but not a false peace". After looking into Calvinism and the 5 points of TULIP I can say I thoroughly reject it. Yes we are dead in trespasses and sins but from Adam and Eve can mortal death and spiritual death but the knowledge of GOOD and EVIL. We are not so totally depraved that Christ's sacrifice, the conviction of the Holy Spirit, and the power of the Gospel is an insufficient appeal that we can't respond to. Total depravity are those in 2 Peter 2 who are overcome again and "twice dead" and those in Hebrews 6:4-6, and any who are resurrected to eternal condemnation.
If Calvinism is right then based on God's character as a loving creator who is not willing for any to perish then Universalism would follow but of course we know that's not what will happen. Rather based on man's willingness to humble himself and submit himself to repent and trust Christ he will have everlasting life or damnation. And that faith must continue for we are partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end.
1 Timothy 4:3 (Paul warned, but nobody cared!)
They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.
@@a.t.701 --Amen, glory to God. I really don't get how they claim man is totally depraved, when Adam and Eve ate from the tree literally called, "The Tree Of The Knowledge Of Good And Evil" lol. Therefore, they were given knowledge of how to do both. Before satan showed up on the scene all they knew was "good" because God made them good, but when temptation meets free will they always fight and we as God's creation have the ability to choose who wins. Adam and Eve choose temptation to win and they were punished for doing so.
Idk, why people think just because everybody else sins, they have to sin too. That's like saying just because everyone is walking off a cliff falling 100ft. onto hard rocks, means I have to do it too.
amen - one of my favorite lines in this video is - The Reformers didn't go back far enough they stopped at Augustine - can't tell you how many times I have said those same words
Malachi 4 is in now
MY question is WHY DID GOD allow this oversight. WHERE WAS HE????!!!
@@PresidentChristopher God does allow his people to be deceived because of their passivity. God has given us all truth and tools to overcome Satan in the Bible. It is our fault when we don't follow God closely and live a carnal life. Read "War on Saints", it's eye opening.
True, they are called fathers of the faith but they were all embedded in the Greek philosophy. We should be returning to the Bible alone.
It is very true. And Augustine and other « fathers of the faith » were under heavy influence of the greek philosophers as Plato. We do not need reformation, We need transformation.
I have to wonder if Augustin was what we call today an alcoholic & sex addict & struggled for answers as to why he couldn't quit. He was trying to define & understand his own feelings of not being able to control his addiction. Pure speculation on my part, but I see folks these days building theology around sin they can't get free from (although God's word clearly calls it sin). They can't get free so they just put their own spin on it. They try to say, "Oh this isn't really sin."
The acts of Augustine and Calvinists to torture those who disagreed with them is pretty condemning of their theology.
Yes, Calvin used the police state of government to kill his opponents. "By their fruits ye shall know them"
without free will as inherent of human race as Grace of God, all Biblical history, teachings of God, Salvation plan in Christ and final judgement lose all floor, all of all would be reduced to a bad joke or a false act.
which is why calvinism exist.
Yes... Amen!
Philippians 4:13 KJV
13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
Praise the Lord! Even obey Him! Hallelujah!!
Thank you for a most convincing video. I was a devoted Calvinist thinking it to be the early church's teaching. Taught to despise Erasmus and all free willers, it's hard to unlearn and do a 180. I must be a child of the church, may she shine .
So grateful this is STILL HERE 12 years on🙌
This is such important information. I pray that everyone will favorite this video and share it with others.
yes brother i have 23 years old, i will continue the work...
That Early Church bishops and Christians dropping that sublime wisdom, to the glory of our God!
Thanks, Jesse! You're an apologist par excellence!
Respect!
@Read Father Seraphim Rose , even though the Orthodox Church is closest to the teachings of the Church Fathers, there are still too many things they are glaring off about, especially their xenophobia, their refusal to embrace the charismata of the Holy Spirit and the absence of pews or chairs for their church services.
@Read Father Seraphim Rose , the Orthodox Church (like Christians everywhere) doesn't always LIVE OUT what they preach and teach, my friend.
You already know this to be a fact.
But go ahead and blindly defend Orthodoxy to the T, and we will see Jesus Christ sort it all out for us at the sounding of the trumpets of the Final Judgment.
Good night to you, my brother.
@Read Father Seraphim Rose * yawn *
@@icxcnika2037 I've been a patristic scholar since 1992, and a teacher of Scripture since 1985, son. So, I'm sure you mean well, but your views are skewed on so many levels but you're so deeply ensconced in your points of view that you probably cannot be shown, as Apollos, "the way of God more perfectly" (Acts 18:26).
@@icxcnika2037 * yawn *
"i lay before you good and evil, you choose this day which you will serve"
Read on…they choose evil.
We have a “free will” but not like a humanist would say. We have a broken want to. When left to ourselves we will always choose towards our sin.
Ease up everyone! He did site scripture! Everything He said and sited is historically accurate and can be easily verified. St. Augustine had a very interesting journey and accomplished some great things, however, like many of us, he took a lot of turns in his life trying to find himself and his beliefs. By his own admissions, he was attached to Gnosticism for about a decade. Jessee...I believe you did a good job here and obviously worked hard and got your references correctly. Whether people like it or not, this was the historical and theological life and journey of St. Augustine!
Augustine was not a Saint he was a heretic and unless he repented is in hell.
@Torah42day Hell doesn't exist, and Jesus never taught it. It's as absurd as Augustine and based on vague extrapolation from 1-3 lines in scripture. It also directly contradicts everything Jesus said about forgiving sinners. It was made up by fiction writers like Dante and bored people before the internet or printing press.
As far as "repenting" goes, Jesus didn't say to forgive sinners "after they ask you first." If im wrong maybe you can quote me chapter and verse. Make it specific and not vague please.
Excellent! The Lord has been revealing the gnosticism in the Colossian church! And its parallels to calvinism! Thank you for sharing the wisdom imparted to you! I could not find many actually delved this deep.
Look up Dr Ken Wilson, excellent also. His dissertation can be bought. Also excellent excerpt of huis dissertation in great little book.
@@ettykoster Dr Ken Wilson's dissertation work is the hammer that smashes every lie, false belief that sprang from Augustine and Calvin. Augustine died in A.D. 430. So it took 400 years to get Christ's words and message to be understandable.????????? Then it took an additional 1100 years for Jean Cauvin in Geneva to really fine tune "the gospel"?? Wow.. that's just like Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses "discovering" after 1800 years that the Bible was corrupted..!!!
Augustine Cancelled Pelagius. Then he did what calvinists accuse others of: Misrepresenting them
The Ana Baptist were the only ones in the reformation that taught free will and the New Testament doctrine that the kingdom of God as the reason Jesus saves us for.
Very nice and very accurate. Augustine casts a long and dark shadow over wwestern christianity. Eastern Orthodox Christianity has absolutely no Augustinian influence. He wrote in Latin and the greel speaking east ignored him almost completely. The belief in the utter depravity of man and predestination was utterly unknown in the ancient church until Augustine. Utterly unknown.
Augustine is known as little depending on the nomination and the priest or Bishop you're talking to he is viewed as a heretic to being the Blessed Augustine to being called a Saint Augustine by Orthodox clergy. One of my favorite Orthodox convert Father Seraphim. Wrote a book on it. He pointed augustin's he deep personal piety. But he was considering Authority by his peers. in the era yes his doctrine of grace may be wrong but his doctrine of the church is spot-on hey falls into that consensus of fathers.
I really like how you expressed that "the devil is a theologian." I had never quite thought about it like that before but it is so obviously true. It is very insidious how Satan has attacked the root nature of man in order to redefine the whole Gospel message. Thus the delusion can sound like the truth because it can be preached from the Bible and things like the divinity of Christ, His death and resurrection can be upheld, yet what is perverted is the means of reconciliation with God.
Did God really say? Is the pattern of satan
It's after the restoration of the doctrine of man's free-will in the time of John Wesley that Christianity advanced tremendously to this day!
Except some of Calvin's ideas were carried forward in terms of hereditary depravity, such as the rush to sprinkle bewildered infants and call it baptism, lingering Roman Catholic traditions and seasons ...and the fact that the Wesley's (as did Luther) opposed creating a sect from their movement. Going back to the scriptures personally and in locally organized congregations of the Lord's Church is the only way to follow the original faith (1 Pet 5:1-4; Jude 3; Gal 1:8-9; 2 Thes 2:13-15).
Fred Cheock: John Wesley was an Arminian in his theology. He did believe in original sin, which is explained in Romans 5. He did not emphasize a doctrine of free-will as this video explained. Nevertheless, he did believe in human responsibility; we are called on to repent Mark 1:15; Acts 2: 38) When we read Romans 7th chapter we discover a chapter that can be summed up by verse 18 "For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it." (Romans 7: 18 NRSV). That verse explains what is called human depravity. We are fallen creatures and born into a fallen sinful world (Read Romans 5). This blows away what this video was trying to forward. The falleness and wayward nature of man has to be changed through the gospel (Romans 1: 16) and we need to become a new creature in Christ (II Cor. 5: 17) I don't have the time or space here to go over the context of Rom. 7: 18, but the verse in Romans 7: 18 is the point that Paul makes concerning the unregenerate person. We are disobedient to God's law and have a bent in the wrong direction, but when we are born of the Spirit and are regenerate we receive a new nature. Our spirit is made alive Eph. 2: 1. What we see in Romans 7: 18 is what is called the "flesh" in scripture, which is not the physical body, but a propensity to do evil. Notice Ephesians 2: 2-3 (NRSV) "in which you once lived, following the course of this world, following the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work among those who are disobedient. 3 All of us once lived among them in the passions of our flesh, following the desires of flesh and senses, and we were by nature children of wrath, like everyone else." Notice Eph. 2: 3b "we were by nature the children of wrath, like everyone else." We were a sinner and in sin, but when we repented and put our faith in Christ we became regenerate believers and were made alive in Christ John 1: 12-13; 3: 3-5; II Cor 5: 17.
Education, nature vs nurture, environment.
@@rebeccalankford9810 Environment? Adam and Eve were in a perfect environment and still blew it. Lucifer who became The Devil was an angel in heaven and blew it. So much for environment.
@@louisaccardi6808 Adam-and-Eve had no consciousness of good or evil. They did reason with the serpent and yes disobeyed by partaking of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. However it was only after that that their eyes were open and they knew they were neckid but they still did not have consciousness of consequence. It was only after the act of disobedience that God wanted to know who it was they listen to. God went on to curse them all and banish them from the garden of Eden and God told them that he would put enmity between her seed and the serpent's seed. Once banished Eve has twins Cain and Able. CAIN the first murder.
Now regardless of the environment they were not fully educated or fully aware and were expected to have blind obedience.
Furthermore in most cultures to work naked is slavery.
You tell me what was the first sin?
Self reasoning
Listing to peer pressure
Disobedience
Sex, unapproved procreation
All of these bring death and the need for salvation?
What choices ie freewill would they have had if there EYES/CONSCIOUSNESS was open to start with?
Is this litterial or biblical poetry which uses literary devises?
Why would a serpent be curse to crawl on its belly when that is what serpents do?
Just came out the bondage of calvinism listening to this video my soul is flipping with joy that not only scripture but church fathers confirm freewill. How evil that these truths have been obscured and the vilification of those who echoed them point in case Pelgiuse.
Get familiar with Dr Ken Wilson's work. The truth exposed strips away all the camouflage heaped on Calvinism to cover its lies.
Well presented, Jesse! This is what I found when I read some of the early church fathers. May God bless this to many hearts and may it help bring back those who have wandered from the truth.
Based on my read of the church fathers, the gnosticism started creeping in with Ignatius, and continued on from there. Everyong was describing God in Stoic and Platonic terms, which goes all the way back to Philo. Augustine just was awash in that world from birth. Apostolic Christianity was gone within 50 years.
The Apostle Paul was very aware and well read on all the Gnostic type belief systems, he had to be for the high position he had in the Sanhedrin. IF he was not intimately familiar with all these pagan belief systems he could not and would not be effective in bringing the Gospel into the Greek and Roman world. You have to know what you are up against before charging in and embarrassing yourself with ignorance. Gotta know the enemy's positions to refute them, not get blindsided and speechless.
@@LuvBorderCollies I would agree. I think between his debating with the Stoics and Epicurians in Athens, and the language he uses in Corthinthians, he is clearly aware of proto-gnostic systems of thought based in the mixture of Greek philosophy and Judeo-Christian thought. I beieve Philo was a lead in this kind of Syncretism, and he was alive and well known among the Jewish aristocracy at the time Paul was under Gamaliel.
Very well done, citing sources and making a great presentation coming in under one hour time this is one of the best documentaries on this very important subject.
I appreciate this most in-depth video. Thank you for this wholesome video.
I wish I would have found this years earlier. I investigated in the past weeks nearly the same and the Spirit led me know to see this as a confirmation of everything studied. You went even deeper. Excellent work. Truly excellent. Thank you brother. I include your video in my discernment section (will be updated tomorrow) and will add some of your books to my recommendations.
Dr Ken Wilson in his book, The Foundation of Augustinian-Calvinsim, traces the same ideas as this video. He read Augustine's works in order and notes where Augustine reverted back to his prior ways in his writings. The book is a short summary of his doctoral thesis. The cover of the book is the tower of Pisa, with it's faulty foundation evident. These heresies do great injustice to the character of God and should be rejected!
And it is the character of God that is at issue here, to the point where I'm not sure I even believe in the same God that Calvinists believe in. I heard it said that Calvin's God was Augustine's God and that Augustine's God was Plato's God.
(Great work). I was once attending a reform Baptist church when l came to faith, and was leaning towards their doctrine of grace and the 5 points. Once l learned more and understood it's origins l had to leave and attended a non reform church. (Thank for the posting.)
Did you talk to your pastor and elders about these issues?
@Dom Black (Yes,) and stayed 3 extra years with many studies. I love and miss my old friends at good grace Baptist.
Excellent video. I too am a former Calvinist. I wish I had learned this twenty years ago.
Jesse, thank you so much for this video. It brings a tear to my eye thinking about how much damage these Gnostic teachings have brought into our society.
Really? Normalizing sleeping with porn stars and propping up liars to govern us hasn't done more harm?
This is very well put together and super informative. Thank you!
Thank you providing the quotes from early church fathers who clearly embraced free will. So unfortunate the church is still being divided over Gnostic heresy embedded within current reformed teaching via Augustine's influence.
Which Church council condemned St. Augustine as a heretic? Even Eastern Orthodox people who don't like him can't condemn him. But the council of Ephesus 431 AD condemned pelagianism which Jesse Morrell believes, sadly makes him a heretic.
I know you know this all the modern bibles came from Alexandria which was the home of Gnostics. All the new versions of bibles attack the deity of Jesus.
During the reformation the church and state were one. Anabaptist believed they were separate and refused infant baptism into the state church. They taught free will choice of salvation and baptism. They were persecuted by both Protestants and Catholics.
Wow! I can’t thank you enough for making this video! God bless you!
So in the freedom of the will, we can desire to be righteous, but we lack the ability without Christ. Hence, in/by our free will, we can choose the salvation offered in and by Christ. We can choose Him when we hear the Gospel Is that the gist of it?
Well done. Good to learn about pre-Augustine church fathers’ views AND to discover where the wishy washy whacked theology of Augustine (and subsequently Calvin) came from. Thank you.
✝️📖🙏🏼
Have you read Augustine works? Or are you blindly listening to this guy, who is definitely not entirely correct on the matter.
@@nonpossenonpeccare9104 Did not Augustine say man's deprived of original righteousness, and by nature is bent unto sin, and therefore we born into the world deserve God's wrath and damnation? Did he not see a baby as harbouring, like venom in a snake, that sinfulness because of our Father Adam's transgression , and that, in this ancient North African's mind, man is born into sin as a snail's born into a shell? Did he not condemn Pelagius for teaching free choice, free will, and free love among all mankind, and creatures, since the British theologian followed the Celtic Church who, in turn, followed the early Father's of the Church?
@@nonpossenonpeccare9104 lol. Who gives a rats tail what he said. He was at odds with the first three centuries of Christendom’s plain understanding of human nature, sin, and salvation. Let it go man.
@@MrResearcher122 Yes and what Augustine said is right. And Pelagius didn’t even follow the early Church Fathers on this, he completely externalized Grace and said Grace is just the fact that God gives you a nature with free will. While Grace is also an in working power through the Holy Spirit. That’s why Paul says the Holy Spirit gives the love in our heart (romans 5:5). Our free will doesn’t give us love in our heart, that’s the whole point. Just like Paul says that God MAY give repentance, its a gift of God, that some get and others don’t. Repentance isn’t a choice since it involves emotion, that’s why Paul says that Godly sorrow (emotion) brings repentance unto salvation. You can’t force yourself upon an emotion. Also, if you have a problem with a nature bend to sin you have a problem with Paul. He is definitely not positive about our body and nature😂 and yes babies are vipers
@@MrResearcher122 The early Church fathers were more arminian like, not full blown Pelagians
Don't know too much about this ministry but i do agree that Augustine is not who his followers have made him out to be.
Speaker never mentions other Bible passages, or other possible interpretations of the history, and cites Augustine at times from other sources. The video is professionally shot, but the argument is one-sided, doesn't answer any potential objections, and strings together quotations that are not always original.
aaannndd doesn't source his finer points.
Thank you for your work!
22,000 views. 650 comments. 260 likes. Just 10 months later, Praise God!
What a great video, thank God for this video! So very edifying.
Does your personal belief follow standards set by the religion you are a member of, or is your relationsship with God seperate from your religious society? Is your view of god only your own personal aspect of God, or do you and other persons share the same aspect of God? Is your view of God determined by your surroundings or by God talking and interacting with you?
David Markus do you really care? Are you stalking me like Kenrick here does?
I care, because if you follow your religion in your beliefs, you follow social norms, therefore religion is not greater than its members.
But if you truly believe and have a connection with god that goes over praying into interaction, you can answer my question why, if god is personal, most accounts of his direct actions fit each other so perfectly.
David Markus My view is personal but I know that a few others share it to some degree. Most people you see that are religious do not really care about who God really is, religion and church is more of a social group, a country club of sorts. I know God has revealed things to me but I am certainly not going to share that with someone who is vitriolic and uninterested in the truth.
I am not interested in what your personal views of God are, only what the consequences of a personal view of god are.
I share your view of churches. By now, belief has degraded severly, and the social aspect has replaced the spiritual as the puropse of church.
But the question still is: if god is personal, why do accounts of one wonder fit perfectly to all the others.
Why are their accounts of wonders from people who see god as something that is not compatible with your views?
wonderful teaching, thank you! i notice the yeast has infected the present day church..
i look to the perfection Jesus prepared and thank you for educating me!! God bless you!
Feel free to share this video over there in Cali with any of your friends at MacArthur's church. ;)
This makes everything, make sense. Can't thank you enough for making this video. 🙏
Wow.... Thank you for this clear & concise explanation on this. I was corrupted by the CalvInsanity and this helped tremendously to show me the truth of Christ... May God bless you & your ministry.
The church KNEW that Augustine's late in life teaching of no free will was heretical. BUT, because Augustine was the church's greatest Heretic slayer, the church remained silent.
You got it. Sad thing is Augustine didn't do anything that others couldn't have done. But he was getting the spotlight so his ideas were put on a pedestal.
Thank you Jesse . 8 years after you made the video I watched - and learned from it.
A condition of a free action according to Calvinists:
1. a free action is not caused or compelled by anything external to the agent who performs it
2. It is however caused by something internal to the agent, namely, a psychological state of affairs such as a belief, desire, or some combination of these two
3. the agent performing the act could have done differently had he wanted to
For Calvinism to be consistent, it requires a compatablist view of free will.
If God predestined everything, then God ordains sin.
If God predestined everything, Every evil that happens is ordained by God and not man's fallen nature.
If God has already elected those who are going to heaven, then why evangelize, seek to be saved, or even follow God's path?
If God predestined everything, then there is no use in praying for your friends or family.
If man is totally incapable of good, then man cannot truly be remorseful or repentant.
If man is totally incapable of good, then man cannot be faulted for his sins.
If God predestined everything, then there is no such thing as randomness.
If God predestined everything, then why eternally condemn the non-elect? After all, it is not their fault.. they were predestined to be damned!
Jesus died for everyone, not just the elect.
Passages which refute Calvinism
Calvinists claim God has ordered all things. God has ordered all things. Scripture refutes this heresy: Did God order Moses to disobey him when he struck the rock with his staff instead of speaking to it as God commanded him?
Calvinists claim God has ordered all things. Scripture refutes this heresy: Hosea 8[4] They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not: of their silver and their gold have they made them idols, that they may be cut off.
Calvinists claim God has ordered all things. Scripture refutes this heresy: Jeremiah 19[5] They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:
Calvinists claim God has ordered all things. Scripture refutes this heresy: Jeremiah 32[35] And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
St Augustine didn't reject free will.
He simply said free will was not enough.
Man needs to freely cooperate with God's Grace.
I might chose (free will) to defeat gravity... But unless (God's Grace) I get into a device (e.g. a plane), I will never leave the ground.
I'm still free to get on the plane, I just can't levitate on my own...
Unless you are trying to argue from the position that to stop sinning is an impossibility. In which case, I believe this video is stating that we do have free will explicitly because we can choose to stop to sin or as it relates to our ability to stop sinning.
To live a sinless life is indeed impossible without the Grace of God.
We need to be "moved" by God's Grace in order to be able to live a perfectly holy life.
Our nature is tainted, and every human will eventually fall if not moved by the Grace of God. Our free will cannot wash away our tainted and fallen nature.
+Gazdo01 The perfection He asks for nothing but a perfection of the will, to have good intentions, to "will" to do His perfect will. That is all He expects of us. Nothing more and nothing less. To say we cannot "will" to live in His perfect will, that even if we "will" to do so, we can't "will" to "will" to do so is double talk.
If our hand is forced, the sin is not ours. If Jesus offers us the Holy Spirit and calls us to be filled and the Holy Spirit enables us to stay in His will, then we have a moral obligation to do so. And if we "will" to have the Holy Spirit living with us and if we "will" to be sinless, then we can be.
Now, by sinless, don't mean we can erase sin from our past. We cannot change history. But our motives can be pure. We can have a faithful heart.
Imagine if we told our spouses, "Honey, even though I do not wish to do so, I must commit adultery against you in thought and in deed thousands of times every day and cannot possibly know or remember all the times I have been unfaithful to you. Nor can I ever hope to know in the future how unfaithful I will be to you since I am unable to stop committing adultery."
Wouldn't our spouses throw us out of the house at once and divorce us? Yet we seem to feel we and our spouses are more worthy of faithfulness than God. We also seem to feel God has given us enough grace to avoid unfaithfulness to our spouses, but for some reason, God has failed to give us enough grace to be faithful to Him.
It's a matter of the heart. Jesus said, "If you love me, do what I say." When we love and trust God for salvation, the results of that are that we will trust and obey Christ to the best of our ability, and that ability will be substantial if indeed the Holy Spirit is substantial. And I believe He is.
our original sin makes us ATTRACTED to do sin... It is God's Grace which initiates the Attraction to do Good to which Man's Free will responds.... If God Does not initiate the Grace of attracting us to do Good, then we Cannot Will to do good....
The thing is that when you read the Bible in context, without omitting any verses you will ultimately come to the conclusion that it teaches free will and election. What then is the answer? I agree that man has free will but that free will is also a slave to sin. There is also another view called the Molinist view and it is the best explanation, in my humble estimation that finds the correct balance without contradiction. Atonement for Sin is a Fundamental belief in all of the Bible. Palagian taught that one could go to heaven if they were sinless despite not receiving Christ. If your aim is to resurrect this heresy, or to say that Christians are sinless just crack your Bible and put those lies to rest.
brother THANK YOU SOOO SOO MUCH, MY EYES ARE LIT NOW
Thank you for your thorough research. Just by reading the Bible I concluded that the “sinful nature” doctrine was not Biblical. I felt alone in this persuasion. Your video sustains my convictions.
While I agree that we have free-will, what Clement said is not scripture and should not be used as evidence to support this position. The bible is quite clear that God desires no one to perish and that whosoever should believe in Him has everlasting life. That is free will.
And....that is why Dr Michael Heiser, in one of his last video clips, asks why do you put any credence in any of the "church fathers"...are they more credible than the Apostles?? Did they have access to more canonical manuscripts?? NO....so why does anyone give them any credence?
What about Psalm 51:5- Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me. ??? Or Ephesians 2:1- 3 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
A raving Manichean who should have never been admitted to the Church to begin. Too late, the damage has been done. Embraced by Catholics and Protestants (Especially Calvinists). Neither will renounce him or his teachings.
Cyric London Are you talking about St. Augustine of Hippo? That he should not be admitted to the Church? Are you acting like you are God. You are usurping God's Power? Did he not say in Scripture that He will forgive your sins as long as you ask His forgiveness? What do you think Augustine did? Yes he asked God to forgive his sins by becoming a member of the Holy Roman Catholic Church through baptism. The rest is Roman Catholic History of the Church founded by Christ. Please ask other religion who founded their so called man made religion. And your pastors, ask them who gave them the authority to become pastors. Our Church is the only church who has a magisterium. Ask other churches man made of course if they also have a magisterium.
This video endorses everything I have recently been reading about reform Theology and has been very helpful. Thank you. 😊
The serpent seduced & beguiled Eve by his greater intelligence & spiritual power, corrupting her. She then brought that corruption upon Adam. By this they both lost their righteousness (innocence). Like a molester corrupting a little boy & girl. Both became unable to do good & to stop themselves from doing wrong. All of their offspring inherited this same inability (moral corruption). "For by 1 man's disobedience (that is Adams) MANY WERE MADE SINNERS so then by the obedience of one (that is Jesus) MANY SHALL BE MADE RIGHTEOUS ( Romans 5:19). So then God sent his son Jesus to save us. Only through faith in Jesus can we overcome sin. When we receive this faith we are instantly accepted by God, our sin is paid for, but we continue to fight with our sinful nature our whole life through. We don't become "instantly sinless" the moment we are converted, we only receive "the earnest of the inheritance" (Ephesians 1:14). Has there ever been anyone who never sinned again after they were reconciled to God? Do we become as Jesus was when he walked the earth, or as Adam was before the fall of man.That's what would be necessary for us to have standing with God without Christ sacrifice. Have we come unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, unto a perfect man? None of us have, have we? Sin is a curse to our lives. It's in our own best interest to get sin out of our lives. There's licentiousness (giving ourselves a license to sin) & self righteousness (believing we're able to live, or are living, a perfectly righteous life) both of these are sins. If righteousness comes by the law, Christ is dead in vain. Galatians 2:21. God was justified in crediting the righteousness of Jesus to us by no merit of our own because we were made sinners by no fault of our own. Think about it.
Excellent teaching. Let's get back to the gospel that was taught in the early church.
Let's get back to the gospel that was taught by Jesus and the apostles which does not concur with this teaching.
@@ROCKLIKEACOBB Yes, I agree.
Same early church that would anathematized Jesse Morrell as Gnostic for rejecting baptismal salvation and Eucharistic real presence.
@@Tron4JC Preach repentance (to those that are able to understand) through the word of God (faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God) to those that are able to understand. Baptizing them for the remission of sins (when they are able to understand that they are sinners in need of a savior). And then in the words of Jesus teaching them to observe all things whatsoever he has commanded us.
Magic water does not save babies.
And even though communion is far more than remembrance alone in a casual manner, it also is not magic wine.
This is turning true Christianity into mysticism.
👉 Otherwise why not spray down the congregation with baptismal water, or encourage even non-believers to partake of communion.
Ask God for discernment and he will open your eyes to the truth. The TRUTH, which is Christ.
@@soundimpact4633 more misrepresentations.
When I was a child
The o.g. sin doctrine deeply upset me. The idea of your all going to hell church sermons.
I continued believing but now at thirty I'm studying the bible history listening to preachers.
But the large amount of out bodies are evil. Etc.
Recently reconfront this.
And my instincts led me to look into augustine.
Now I truly believe my instincts were correct
Look into The Eastern Orthodox Church
@@DANtheMANofSIPA yep just discovered.
Ancestral sin
Makes way more sense
'All of humanity, Jew and Gentile alike, are under the power of sin.' (Romans 3:9) 'No one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.' (1 Cor 12:4) The Holy Spirit liberates the human will so that we can put our faith in Christ. Of course, on a natural level, we can choose whether or not we choose to indulge sinful impulses.
ONE OF THE MOST COMPREHANSIVE TEACHING ON THIS ISSUE OF THE FREEDOM OF WILL. GOD BLESS YOU BORTHER
10,000 views. 500 comments. 150 likes. Praise God!
56000 views, 751 comments and 550 likes!
Praise god for spreading heresy and antiphilosophical nonsense?
Read Ephesians 2:8&9
Read genesis 1:- to revelation 22:21 .
Don’t be a bunch of illegit idiots
Jesse Morrell OpenAirOutreach.com lost as he is ! congratulations you prove you follow this goon
Gnostic. I can tell by your drive by comment
Very interesting, informative and helpful. Thanks so much for presenting all this material; it must be a huge amount of time-consuming work! Much appreciated.
Thank you for a wonderful and riveting lecture. And I mean riveting! For too many years as a Catholic, and then looking elsewhere for something hopeful, I felt there was no place to find comfort in God, if God would make us to have so much suffering. That doctrine of not having free will, which you laid out so interestingly, seems to taint everything. If we are naturally sinful, why bother to be good?? Giving up on our own goodness causes suffering! Why should men who've gone to prison ever think they could go another direction if they are condemned in their very nature??? Why not go ahead and steal, hurt others? Everywhere I turned there was that word over and over..... sin, sin, sin.It was like an obsession for the writers of some tracts. The same thing on the radio. I heard one minister on radio say that we (people) are like filthy roaches before God. While he appeared to have a very kind heart, he said one day, that people are basically evil. I wondered how his listeners felt hearing that. I also thought that perhaps that's why so many ministers seem to drift into sexual sins... because they, more than lay persons, have been educated in the sin nature idea.
Excellent study!
I do not see where the doctrine of original sin is contradictory of free will. Original sin is a result of the fall. But our free will is intact. We can choose to do good or evil, or to chose God or not choose God.
David Lingner, if you’re corrupt or cursed by nature, at birth, how can you truly “choose” to do good or evil? On some level your future has already been laid out. This is why Calvinism and Augustinian Gnosticism by default make God the author of evil.
Augustine believed that original sin is transmitted via sperm from father to child and that after the fall humans conceive in lust and depravity. Augustine himself believed that pre-fall Adam would have had intercourse with Eve without an erection. He also believed that nocturnal emissions and dreams were signs of our depravity.
I'm not into Freud but if you read into Augustine's life the man clearly has some big hang-ups, I honestly don't know how such a man ended up the Father of Catholicism but his stamp upon Western christianity is so strong, that there is simply no way of reforming the western churches to remove his influence.
All you can really do is to study the origins of these doctrines. Remember doctrines are all made up. It's trying to mix obscure and controversial religious texts with human logic.
You were born innocent. All are.
Show me from the book of Genesis in the fall where God curses man with original sin.
If man was born with a sinful nature Christ had this same sinful nature. That's why catholics also teach that Mary was born a virgin.
@@Hebrew42Day you don't see where man had to work and woman will have pain in childbirth as proof of original sin. Also nature is held captive to sin as well. In the new testament it speaks of nature groaning in anticipation of Jesus return to redeem it alsopaul teaches original sin in romans 5:12-19. Sin is separation from God. Adam was kicked out of the garden, separated from God. Ephesians says we were dead in sins and transgressions. You have to take the Bible as a whole in its teaching. It's there if you look for it.
Apostle Peter teaches in Clementines homilies that faith is a gift from God. And it is what we do with that gift that determines if we enter heaven or hell. Clement also wrote that the spirit of Christianity is a spirit of perfect disengagement from the things of this world. this is consistent with free will and that we are able to chose to do good. This is especially true of the Christian who is truly reborn with a new heart, with the blood of Christ running through them and the Holy Spirit dwelling in them.
It seems to me, this man has never understood the absolute earliest church fathers, the Apostles. Ephesians 2:1-3 clearly states, that by "nature" men are sinners, and "sons of disobedience". And by nature objects of wrath. !
This man may likely call the judizers early church fathers, BUT THEY WERE NOT. !
Coming to this late but men can be sinners by nature and not in determinative sense used by Augustine. A contemporary of Augustine, John Cassian taught this. The term sons of disobedience is a reference to the fall which every Christian affirms, not just those in the vein of Augustine. This objection is a non-starter.
@@honestorchard Correct, the word 'nature' in the greek doesn't infer "born that way", people read that into it. It can mean growing or becoming something.
Nature means Growth and development. By practicing sin we become sinners. Nobody is born with a corrupted sin nature. Your welcome.......
Audible portions of the church fathers you use in you vid is what? I’d like to listen to them . Thx
"God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of posterity; but also at his own pleasure arranged it. For as it belongs to his wisdom to foreknow all future events, so it belongs to his power to rule and govern them by his hand."
John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion (III.xxiii.7)
*OR*
Jas 1:13 Let no one say when he is enticed, “I am enticed by Elohim,” for Elohim is not enticed by evil matters, and He entices no one.
'Nuff said.
Not good enough.
Read Deut 28:63
Isaiah 63:17
Matt 11:20-25 (why did Jesus even bother preaching there when His foreknowledge knew what would happen?)
Prov 21:1
Ezekiel 14:1-10
There are plenty of Scriptures that challenge a simplistic notion of "free will".
@@timfoster5043 There's more verses in the Bible that affirm libertarian free will than determinism. Also, the Early Church universally affirmed free will. The Eastern Church has always affirmed free will, never teaching determinism or even original sin. They've always rejected determinism because they could actually read Greek, the original language of the New Testament. Augustine was a former Gnostic who couldn't read Greek. Complicates things a bit.
Werd Nnam
They didn’t know how to read Greek?
Are you really gonna stick with that? 😂
What a condescending remark! Everyone else is an idiot except for your posse? C’mon!!
Maybe they both know how to read Greek. Maybe the Eastern Orthodox Church doesn’t respect scripture above ecclesiastical dogmas...look it up!! They say it themselves. The problem with Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Church is the overarching dependence on traditions of men. They venerate icons and most of you would break out in hives if you saw a church filled with idols. Can we be honest here?
@@pateunuchity884 I'm Eastern Orthodox, so I don't break out in hives at the site of icons. I'm actually venerating an Icon of Christ and the Theotokos right now! I grew up evangelical and graduated from an evangelical seminary though, so I know what you're getting at. It's objectively true that Augustine couldn't read Greek, and that the Western Church interpreted most of its theology through Augustine, though.
Werd Nnam
Right...most of you not all of you. Lol
What exactly am I “getting at”?
I thought I explained myself well enough.
Would you like to add something to my words that I’ve left out?
If we are not born sinners, and Ephesians 2:3 says we are born children of wrath (according to you), for what reason does God have wrath or anger with infants? If they haven't sinned yet, why are they children of wrath?
Thank you, thank you.
I had to smile when I saw one of the posters mention the end of the world. The Idea that this physical world is evil is not supported by the Bible but the end of an age did happen. World systems, especially religious systems, are the problem, not the physical world. Sin is not produced by our being robots.
The Early Church had a very simple form of worship free of both icons and elaborate ceremony. Christ pointed to a spiritual relationship, a temple not made with hands.
Christianity was born from Buddhism (by Jewish Pythogorean Buddhists in 100 BCE to 150 CE).
Read the works of Micheal Lockwood (Buddhism's relation to Christianity & Unknown Buddha). And research of Prof Christian Lindtner. www.jesusisbuddha.com/
Christianity began with Essenes or Theraputaes or Nazarenes in 100 BCE who were Jewish Buddhist Monks & Nuns. This was exported to Israel, Syria, Iraq & Egypt from India in the rule of Kushana in 100 BCE. The so-called Ashoka pillars in India (they are actually Kushan pillars) mention this. They are dated to 100 BCE. Philo of Alexandria (who belonged to 20 BCE to 50 CE) mentions them in glowing terms. Most probably, Philo was a Jewish Pythogorean Buddhist. Remember, prominent Christian ideas like 'Logos' & 'Trinity' were given by Philo of Alexandria.
sacred-texts.com/bud/ipc/ipc13.htm
Buddhist Sources of New Testament are:
1) MulaSarvaAstivadaVinaya
2) SaddhDharmaPundarika Sutram
3) Lalita Vistara
About rebirth or reincarnation:
Originally, Reincarnation was part of Christianity (because Christianity started off as a branch of Buddhism). Emperor Justinian removed it. Without the concept of reincarnation, the concept of eternal heaven & eternal hell (which are part of Christian theology) become meaningless and even unjust.
Eternal Hell was meant to be a never ending cycle of lives. And eternal heaven was meant to be a mindful state of a person both in Christianity & Buddhism. It was changed later in Christianity.
Alien (& illogical) concepts like original sin were included into Christianity (and the doctrine of reincarnation & Karma was deleted). Original Sin was a manichean concept. It was imported into Christianity. This caused a schism known as Nestorian Schism. In the councils held in 430 CE (immediately after the death of Augustine), original Sin concept was formally adopted by church. This adoption of manichean concept created a rebellion by Assyrian Church (Iraq) & Syrian Church (Syria). (Greek church also opposed original sin idea). Manicheanism was born in Iran & popular in middle-east & north africa. So, Iraqi & Syrian christians knew that original sin was a core doctrine of manicheanism. So, they vigorously oppossed it being introduced into christianity. One of the objections to original sin doctrine is that: if all humans are born sinners, wouldnt it make jesus also a sinner because he was also born as human. This created a whole debate on whether jesus was a human or divine or both.
In the council held in 450 CE, Original Sin was again adopted by Latin Church and Jesus was declared as divine & human simultaneously (as illogical as it is). This was the last straw for the christians of Iraq & Syria. And it caused the Nestorian Schism (churches of Iraq & Syria separated from Latin Church). Later, Nestorian Christianity (of Syria & Iraq) morphed into Islam.
Similarly, Crucifix was imported into Christianity from Egyptian Ankh. (But, this part is not unusual to Buddhism. Buddhism always adopted local customs whenever it spread to a new place.)
I'll try to pitch a thought on this in a different way. As I understand it the wearing of clothes is a manifestaion of a sinful nature. If we try to live like Adam and Eve it will be a disaster. We were not made for clothes but clothes were made to help us cope with a problem. Clothing also serves as pretection against God's creation. This is something that always fascinates me. My personal belief is that we created cities and utilized technology to cope with everything wrong with creation. So if the bible is all about the changing of ages then well, something profound has to happen when people drop their clothes and the power of miracles are utilized as naturally as the wonders of technology.
@@snaphaan5049 The thought that we are all, since the time of Adam and Eve, been born with a sinful nature puts the lame for sin on the self existent one. That does not make sense. Our nature can be and must be controlled by self discipline. In Genesis God told Cain he could do that. Christ told people to go and sin no more. Doing that is what repentance is about.
Wilful Sin is the rejection of righteousness and that opens the door for two avenues. One, is too repent. Two, is to not repent. One of them rejects sin and the other opens a door to the creation of necessities used as substitutes for obedience. Clothing was not needed until God's law was rejected. Israel was told that obedience would make things go well for them and they would get a land flowing with milk and honey. They repeatedly rejected his laws. However there was always a small righteous remnant. Wilful sin is addicting.
@@VernManson Why do we wear clothes?
Hi Jesse, which track is it you used in the background for this one? I've searched the royalty free music for incompetech (Kevin Macleod) and cannot find this particular one. It's a very, very nice accompaniment with the documentary.
bibletheology Which track was this one?
I think this is a very good video that documents the majority belief of the original church fathers. If the Gnostics were right, saying that man has no free choice but to do evil, then why have jails or prisons? Or, why do we punish children or fine people for breaking the rules. We have them because we believe people have the free choice to choose to obey the law or to break the law. or to obey the rules or to disobey the rule.
THIS IS FREEWILL!
From this perspective, 99% of the Calvinist or Augustinians, actually believe in freewill of man, except when it comes to our dealings with faith and religion. How absurd.
Timothy Phillips If the Gnostics are right and we don't have freewill, why do we have jails or prisons? Because for all intents and purposes we exist in a state of being that seems to imply we have free will. Yet it's a simple thing to create arguments, both secular and spiritual that cast doubt on the idea of free will. So here's my thought at least, we exist, more than likely, and if this existence was set into motion by a single thing that behaves in a particular way, then that means that there can only be one way for things to continue in their ways. Whether its God or some other force of nature things were set on their courses long ago and we live in a such a far removed time from then that the obvious patterns have become obscured and all we have now is the illusion of free will.
Even the old testament it says Iay before you a choice between death or life, choose life
Psalm 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
Romans 7:18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do-this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does
I believe our nature has been corrupted but that we have not lost the ability to make a decision and are able to respond to the Gospel message and receive a new nature made in the image of Christ.
what bible are you reading? It is no small sin to pervert the text like you did...
Psalm 51:5 does *_NOT_* say "I was sinful at birth" it says:
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. KJV
Romans 7:18 does *_NOT_* say "sinful nature"
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present
with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
@@inTruthbyGrace You are simply using a different Bible version. companymanPs6811 is simply using an NIV, you are using an KJV, and I see no perversion from either version.
Now for Psalm 51:5 if read verbatim from the original Hebrew text says: My mother (’im·mî.) conceived me (ye·ḥĕ·maṯ·nî) and in sin (ū·ḇə·ḥêṭ,) I was brought forth (ḥō·w·lā·lə·tî;) in inequity (bə·‘ā·wō·wn) behold (hên-).
Now for Romans 7:18 if read verbatim from the original Greek text says: I know (Oida) for (gar) that (hoti) nothing (ouk) there dwells (oikei) in (en) me (emoi) that (tout’) is (estin) in (en) the (tē) flesh (sarki) of me (mou) good (agathon) - (to) for (gar) to will (thelein) is present with (parakeitai) me (moi) - (to) but (de) to do (katergazesthai) the (to) good (kalon) not (ou).
Now I prefer the NASB version, as I feel it represents the original text the most, but as long as scripture is read in all of it's context and dynamic, either version should come to the same understanding of what the passages at hand are saying. This excludes grossly misinterpreted versions like the New World Living Translation, Remix, Message, SDA versions etc. NIV, HCSB, KJV, NKJV, NLT, NASB, etc are all versions of personal preference.
companymanPs6811 we are still born in the image and likeness of God sinless, but we all do go astray and need to repent of our sins and ask the Father through Jesus Christ to forgive us. With the help of the Holy Spirit we are able to cease from practicing sin and living un righteousness. The NIV is a terrible reading and is biased as is also the ESV and Geneva bibles.
@@everydayredpill6182 NIV is not necessarily a word for word translation. It does utilize some embellishment in its interpretation of the text.
Of course Augustine's belief is responsible for certain Catholic and Protestant churches adopting false teachings.
Prior to Augustine, Ambrose wrote in Second Defense of David 12.71:
“For surely we all have sinned in the first man, and through the succession of nature there is also a succession of guilt transmitted from one to all. Against whom, then, have I sinned: against the Father or against the Son? Indeed, against the one who entrusted to me that very command that I violated in not observing it. It was commanded to man that he might taste from all that was in paradise but that he not touch the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Thus Adam is in each of us. For in him the human condition sinned, because sin passed through one to all.”
Sorry all but, I became a Calvinist through scripture not Calvin nor Augustine.
When one comes to understand what the atonement of Christ and His intercession accomplishes, the only conclusion is Christ atoned and interceeds for only the one's the Father chose.
Sorry Darryl, You're fully deceived and your self-awareness is severely lacking. Do better Darryl, much better.
_"I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours."_
*John 17:9*
context kills calvinism. Your choice@@dustincampbell4835
@@dustincampbell4835 exactly. Speaking of only those who are the elect, chosen.
I've been saying this a while. Dont bother quoting early church fathers as there was false teachers in Paul's day.
So exactly what does that mean? What do you believe and why do you believe it?
josh portie BINGO! Concise, short, sweet, to the point, and
exactly correct!! Maranatha!
YES....somebody actually "gets it". The same group that schreeches about canon or no-canon Jewish material being referred to, are the fastest ones to grab some book of word salad to force a false interpretation into the Bible.
Augustine believed in free will. Just look at his book "De arbitrio libero" (Latin for "The Problem of Free Choice"). There he stated that sin comes from the misuse of our free will, and thus is a corruption of or deviation from nature, as opposed to the dualistic mindset of the Manicheans, who believed that good and evil were equal and opposite forces occurring in nature. Augustine's stance obviously pre-supposes the belief in free will. We - that is, Christians in general - never rejected the belief in free will. Not even Calvin. Calvin believed that because of total depravity, we are completely reliant on the grace of God to act. Nonetheless, whenever we act, we act because we choose to act. Our free will was led by God.
If you really dig into Augustine's works, every one in chronological order from the beginning, you'll see Augustine promoted free will. When he was arguing with Pilagius he got stuck and then he reached into his Mani toolbox to retrieve the pagan determinism. The Mani toolbox he kept open his last 18 years, died A.D.430.
Thanks, you produced an excellent video. This must be known by all people. Augustine corrupted the whole western christianity and part of the east.
God bless you!
Formerly Chuck’s
If one is free in his natural will to choose good, can one live a life having not sinned?
Was Christ righteousness not needed for those people? Having lived a good life to the law, having not sinned.
All have sinned and fall short. That is why Jesus died on the cross. Even the thought of foolishness is sin. Not believing on Jesus is a sin.
Excellent work!!! I went through the 55 minutes wanting more! I need to some how support your work, maybe buy some books?
I like how the comment section is full of butt hurt Calvinists who think they need to champion for their faith as if their efforts actually matter.
"Someone disagrees with me on the internet!? I have to do something about this right away"!
God forgive us for believing a doctrine as evil as Calvinism!! Beware of those who come as the light and pervert the pure gospel of Jesus Christ and change the Bible to promote sin and utter blasphemy upon the Righteous God!! REPENT!
Baptismal Regeneration a heresy?! How can you make an entire video refuting calvinism using the beliefs of the early church but then completely contradict yourself by ignoring the fact that the early church all taught baptismal regeneration and infant baptism?!
What a shame. Here is a video for any who wish to investigate this further ruclips.net/video/zxI66Hjz_sA/видео.htmlsi=2qdnuDtB6765ey7r
Excellent! Thank you for all the hard wok put into this! I've been waiting for over a year for this resource. I am downloading it now and it will be used in all my Schools of Evangelism here in the Philippines.
Spread the good news, brother!
Is it possible to have a copy of your dissertation Jesse, or is this the book mentioned at the end?
+bibletheology
St. Augstuine didn't deny free will! This is heavily out of context.
He wrestled with the fact that free will was (and is) strongly influenced by the fallen nature.
He is talking about St. Paul's teaching on the same.(e.g. Romans 7:14-15)
Also, if you've read even a little of the Fathers, you know they were Catholic through and through. E.g. their being entirely unanimous on the Real Presence/Transubstantiation in the Eucharist. The priesthood. Etc.
They were Orthodox not roman catholic. Many of the beliefs that came into the roman catholic church came after the great schism. Christos Anesti.
Ave Christus Rex Transubstantiation is a man made doctrine and wasn’t codified until the fourth Lateran council in 1215. Read Hebrews 10 10
Ave Christus Rex Dr Bart Ehrman explains all the modification early church fathers made to original koine Greek NT Papyrus scriptures and theology they forced .
I agree that we have free will but still, Bibile says that we do have sinful nature. Psalm 14:3; Lk 11:13. What about these verses then?
This teaching is a blessing
I also know I'm not to be impartial or I would be found a sinner. So I will speak with them regarding this situation when I am able to find out why reconciliation is not fully possible if you're truly seeking it. In the mean time, I would exhort you to stop commenting on the situation unless you're going to repent for anything else---you've done your part in seeking peace with all men, it's up to them to do the other part.
Well then you have a serious problem with scripture if Augustine's views are incorrect according to your assumptions...
In Romans 6 the Apostle Paul uses the term sin 17 times (keep in mind he wasn't dealing with gnosticism)
But only 2 of those times, he was referring to acts of sin ( vs. 15,17-if my memory serves correct for the verses)
But the other 15 times ,Paul was addressing the sin nature. I.e original sin, total deprivaty.
In verse 1 " what shall we say then shall we sin that Grace May abound? God forbid! "
In the first verse between " we sin" in the original Greek there is what is called the definite article. ( And,But,The) that actually makes it read "the sin" .. which changes a verb into a noun .. person place or thing. So therefore it is talking about a person, a principal, nature. .. you will not find this in the KJV or any other English translation except Young's literal translation..
. So an overview of this chapter Hollis dealing with first at inner bent towards what good.... But there is a law ( principal, nature... Like gravity) at war with the members of his mind.
Also. I have noticed that those who claim that augustinian, Calvin teachings come out of gnosticism, however I do not find this so. And make twist the meaning of " flesh" when it is used by the Apostle Paul, Augustine, or even Calvin meant it's the word for flesh that they use in the Greek is sarx. Which carries a different idea
Also Jesus said but the spirit is indeed willing but is weak through the flesh...which points to total deprivaty. I find the augustinian and calvin both got their views from the bible, not agnostic.
To me this just sounds like Petty Guilty By Association theology. And not good theology at that
It is scary to see people argue languages that they clearly do not speak... like drug dealers with no knowledge of the chemicals they are pushing. You are selling a the appeal of carnal feelings at the expense of truth. Your point about Romans 6, especially at verse 1 is absurdity of someone who does not even know English... "shall we continue" Ἐπιμένομεν is the verb and the dative noun "by sin" is the object... what is so hard to comprehend there?? Does driving become personified as a nature if I ask shall we continue by car? How do you get your "sin nature" when Paul is asking quite literally about continuing which is a verb??
This is the problem with you Calvinists... you love your doctrines of man and your cage stage pals' approval so much that you will turn the truth of God's word into a lie rather than just admit you are wrong and thus you LITERALLY worship the creation of man (Calvin's false doctrines) _more_ than the Creator who is laid out and revealed in Scripture as COMMANDING you to BELIEVE...
anything but the truth.
I suggest that you repent, ask God to reveal your secret faults *_that you may recover YOURSELF from the snare of the devil_* you have obviously been taken by his will. (2Tim2:26)
I doubt you watched this video for if you had watched it you should have been horrified by the quotes of Polycarp, Ireneaus, Origen, Tertullian... etc. How could those to whom God entrusted the deposit once delivered to the apostles fall so quickly in direct contrast to God's word in the time the apostles were still alive???
inTruthbyGrace
He also quoted Greg Boyd who is an open theist. Mr. Morrell promotes open theism which is considered unorthodox heresy by the majority of Christianity. He doesn’t support the teaching of exhaustive divine foreknowledge believing instead God doesn’t know the free actions of His own creatures. He also doesn’t believe in Substitutionary atonement. Gordon Olson is his real church father and his “cage stage friend” is Winkie Pratney. YWAM was his cradle.
Ur a moron...
What do you mean by "free will"?
Can you please define this term?
Do you think the early church writers were completely consistent with each other, and, more importantly, the Scriptures?