It certainly makes sense, I don't know about the moral aspect of it, havent quite come to terms with the 'best' argument. Hear bits of it on either side
Childish black and white morality left the conversation long ago. I can't really imagine a timeline where US security services don't engage in something like paperclip, especially not with the looming cold war. I really hope you all cover the cold war intensely between here and the korea channel. Particularly I think anti-communist hysteria predating the USSRs existence in the USA and elsewhere deserves a spotlight as do things like the western intervention in the Russia civil war. A lot of recent events illuminate how little the everyman really knows about why and how the cold war happened and I think it's important to dispell the idea the USSR waa some uniquely evil nation that intrisically just couldn't coexist with western powers.
@@fguocokgyloeu4817 von Braun probably at heart was something like 70% committed nazi but he pretended to have been just a scientist. His many denials are just a bit implausible.
My father served with the OSS during the war. He had a lot to say about Operation Paperclip. He called von Braun a "Rocket Whore", believing he would side with any country that would finance his rocket addiction. So as not to throw out any spoilers, I will save a comment from my father, while watching the moon landing in 1969, till part 2 😳
doesn't matter what his opinion was von braun obviously preferred to be with the western allies rather than in the USSR and i'm certain like everyone else the preference gap was immeasurable. nobody wanted to be in the USSR
@@mikepette4422 Nazis, certainly unrepentant ones, definitely preferred the West. The Soviets captured their share of German scientists and technicians and put them to work. Hugo Schmeisser, for example, worked at Izhmash, an important Soviet weapons design centre and factory, until 1952. He returned to East Germany and died the following year.
Having lived in Huntsville, Alabama USA (when i was in college there), if anyone ever visted there, you would think at first glance that Von Braun was a notable city figurehead, and would not have figured he was a former SS scientist, the way we hold such esteem for him and his work. Not to mention he helped build the space research economy that Huntsville is known for now 😊 So I'm not surprised Von Braun was part of the SS. Fantastic video as always ladies ❤❤❤❤❤ Thank You #TimeGhost
I’m going to miss Spies and Ties during the Korean War! I really am hoping that in addition to Indy’s weekly reports that Anna, Astrid and Sparty make regular or even irregular appearances in the Korean War!! After six years of war with you all, I’ve started feeling like you are old friends! I really enjoy this series and will miss it AND you two very much!
Now the war is ending, I do think that Anna could have quite some releases of 'On the homefront' to do'. The return to home of the soldiers, their families, how they cope with going back to usual life, PoWs, widows and orphans, survivors from camps, reconstruction, the feelings of the civil population... quite a lot to cover (and many others I am sure that have not even dawned on me)
My home town hosted Von Braun at the dedication ceremony to Robert Goddard's first liquid-fueled rocket launch. Needless to say, I get a nice chuckle out of the realization my middle-of-nowhere town hosting a nazi war criminal
Well, that war got cold pretty fast. This is all news to me. As a sidebar, I note how the JIOA included Air Force intelligence as a separate member. The Air Force was indeed covering all bases in its effort to become its own branch of the military.
"The film, invented by your German scientists, was put into the camera invented by our German scientists, and put into a rocket invented by their German scientists" 'Mr. Jones' Ice Station Zebra.
Another interesting OSS agent sent to Europe was former professional baseball player, lawyer, and polyglot Morris 'Moe' Berg. He was under orders to shoot Werner Heisenberg if he thought the Germans were close to making an a-bomb. He concluded they weren't and did not shoot Heisenberg.
it's kinda funny, i heard the first time about this operation just a few days ago in a x-files episode and now you make an amazing video about it, thx ^^ :)
Missile Park, located next to Point Mugu Naval Air Station has a US Navy produced Loon, improved version of the V-1. Worth a drive on Pacific Coast Highway (PCH) in Ventura County in SoCal.
I didn't know that Hugo Eckener was part of Operation Paperclip. The story I remember was that the President of Goodyear, a long-time business partner and personal friend, had used the transparent excuse of his help on airship design to get Eckener to the US to treat him for his post-war health problems. I can see why the Truman admin chose him to defend Paperclip, Eckener was still well-known and well-liked in the US and was contemptuous of the Nazis (though he was perfectly happy to take their money for his company). Just a comment for the algorithm
The reality is that if the United States hadn't made deals with these scientists, the Soviets would have captured them. Politics and war occasionally make the least bad option the one to pick.
As a Baby Boomer who was led to believe “A Red under every bed.” And the “duck and cover” mentality keeping Nazi scientists out of the hands of the Communist government was nearly our patriotic duty. At the time they saw it as a means to an end with any consequences or repercussions someone else’s problem. Politics indeed does make strange bedfellows.
Yes. Only nazis who were of no use were branded war criminals and faced justice. The whole thing reeks of hypocrisy, with Nuremberg being little more than a dog and pony show
Whenever anybody answers you with the statement like the human that originally replied to you did... "There are things more important than justice." You can be absolutely certain of their hypocrisy and that that opinion of theirs would evaporate the minute the Justice being denied applied to them.
Von Braun had limited choices of who to surrender to. NO ONE wanted to surrender to the Soviets and Braun didn’t think the British were a good idea since that’s where most of his rockets had landed! The French were out just because they were the French! Braun had also seen the ruins Europe was in that the US had escaped so the US it would be.
Given that the US also helped war criminal Klaus Barbie flee to Bolivia, it might be interesting to explore the extent of US sponsored 'rat lines' including legal, economic and political support provided by the US to these ex-regime figures either directly or through US allies / host countries. Did the US in fact perpetuate Third Reich assets and methods both within Germany and around the world? Sounds a bit mental but also kind of plausible in the context of the Cold War. Note / update - after a quick search I discovered a US government report on this topic that you can google titled: HITLER’S SHADOW Nazi War Criminals, U.S. Intelligence, and the Cold War By Richard Breitman and Norman J.W. Goda Published by the National Archives
The US. Department of Justice has a Report for the Attorney General of the United States (October 1992) by the Office of Special Investigations, Criminal Division titled: "In the Matter of Josef Mengele"
Google "Reinhard Gehlen". He ran the Wiemar Republic (ie pre Nazi) intelligence service, the Nazi military intelligence service and the West German intelligence service. Seemed to be one of those guys who loved his work and did not much care who he worked for.
A cliffhanger from my two favorite correspondents! (Sorry to the handsome gentlemen) thanks for the episode. Were we able to infiltrate Japan as we did in Europe?
Astrid and Anna always give us a well researched very well presented video. ‘Hello Darlings’ always makes me smile as do the occasions when Astrid makes comments and little jokes when Spartacus or Indy are presenting. Loving Indy’s Korean War series too. I look forward to future series on the wars and conflicts post WW2 such as the Malayan Emergency, the Vietnam War, the First Gulf War and others. Thanks to all of the team for many hours of interesting educational content. 👍
"Like a phoenix burning bright/ In the skyyyyyyyyyy,/ I'll show there's another side to me,/ You can't denyyyyyyyy!/ I may not know what future holds,/ But hear me when I saaaaaaaay/ That my past does not define me,/ 'Cause my past is not todaaaaaaaay!"
Great video! Lots of background information. It is good to know that not all Americans were pro inviting nazi scientist. And they had the freedom to speak out their mind. That's democracy. But a democracy also has to defend itself from outside agressors, I got the feeling that during the cold war American society and politics were so "afraid" of communist influence that the left side of the political spectrum was silenced. By your channel I got an interest in the difference in American politics before and after WW2. And that after WW2 and after president Roosevelt the Democratic presidents were a very different kind of Democratic.It's also good to mention that this reaction, is made by an European person. The last thing that I like to mention is the way World War Two Series is trying to be as much objective as can be. Great work! And a great source of information!
Tom Bower's books, "Blind Eye to Murder" [post-war cover-up of widespread, generalised atrocities in Europe, done mostly by Nazis] and another, "Paperclip Conspiracy", examined selection of those guilty of war crimes but not prosecuted, being deemed useful to the USA.
Amazing how they knew who these scienetist were and which ones they wanted to bring to the USA. The moral question took a backseat to making sure these scientist were not working for the Soviets. Were there any nuclear phycisist brought to the USA? The motivation might have been to keep them away from the Soviets. Looking forward to part 2. Great video. 😊
Vasily Malyshkin, a former Red Army major-general, was captured by the Germans and joined Vlasov's Russian Liberation Army, in which he was also a major-general. He surrendered to the Americans in 1945 and told them what he knew of Red Army organisation, and the Americans were certainly receptive to his info. Not unlike their use of Nazi scientists and experts. SPOILER Nonetheless, the Americans handed him back to the Soviets in early 1946, and he was later executed in Moscow.
I know my question may come across as whataboutism (I'm of Korean descent), but: Will there be a similar video or post about the Japanese scientists granted immunity in exchange for their biological, chemical, and medical research? It is said that the US made use of Japan's chemical weapons research during the Korean War (which TimeGhost recently launched a series on!).
@@WorldWarTwoI figured, considering the channel is going in chronological order. I was just wondering if it was in the cards. Thanks for all that y'all do! Looking forward to more WW2, Korean War, and other TimeGhost projects!
WOOOOW....seeing you wo side by side, you look more alike than I thought. I am super late to this, but I honestly don't remember being taught this in school, and that's with a teacher who loved teaching WW2 history.
I read the book ‘American Raiders’ about Watson‘s Whizzers and operation lusty ( Luftwaffe secret technologies. ). What I found interesting is that despite the poor condition of Germany after the war, quite a few of the German technicians decided to return to Germany after being in the United States for less than a year or so, and there were even one or two suicides by the Germans. It is a very complex issue and even after having read a 400 page book you are still left wondering…what if we had left them behind? The Russians by comparison got mostly the manufacturing people and not the original design engineers. The Russians never trusted them so despite having, for all practical purposes, abducted them, they really never got that much out of taking the German technicians. There was, however, one exception who was an expert at manufacturing rockets, although he could not design them, and he did help them with their rocket production..
I still remember watching the movie Rat Race back in 2006...there was a scene in which a family visits a museum they think is dedicated to Barbie the doll. Unfortunately the museum is run by neonazis and dedicated to Klaus Barbie, the Butcher of Lyon...it made laugh. At first I thought Klaus Barbie was fictional until I did some research and found out that he actually existed...To my surprise he was one of the many nazis who fled to South America and even lived in Peru (my country) for a few years. I still find it ironic that it was through a movie starring Rowan Atkinson and Cuba Gooding Jr that I learned of the existance of a Nazi who lived in my country....
09:00 ? What of the Manhattan Project and associated development of the B29? Both underway at the end of the war in Europe and both would be proven as wonder weapons.
What does this channel have to say about Fu fighters and UFOs? The Nazis had more interesting projects like Hanabu and Die Glocke. During a discussion about Nazi research, Werner Von Braun pointed over to the UFO section of NASA's library and said "We had help from them".
"Even Truman does not know". I totally do not see this turning into a shadowy practice by an unaccountable shadow state that will grow a tail of its own and cause all sorts of intrigue and problems concerning transparency of public power
I doubt if German scientists would have been much use to the Soviet Union as far as developing atomic weapons went. Guided missiles and jet engines, yes, but not the atom bomb.
It’s easy to criticize something that happened nearly 80 years ago. Born during war and remember the Cold War, loss of China, purge of non-communists in Eastern Europe, collapse of French Indochina, Korean War, Berlin Wall, Cuban Missile Crisis, etc. Also, hardly any war criminals are actually executed in either the European or Pacific Theaters by the western Allies. Von Braun was all over the TV in the late 50’s and into the 60’s. The outrage was very muted and I don’t remember much controversy at least in 50’s and 60’s.
The fact that it’s from an era long past doesn’t mean that you can’t criticise it. But when criticising something from former times, we have to keep the norms and values and such from that time in mind. As was shown in the video, even back then there were a lot of critics of the program. That shouldn’t prevent you from looking critically at the program nowadays.
You can criticize, but there was no time to come up with alternatives. Who were the critics? Couldn’t have been too many, this was a secret program. If there was mention in the media it was positive until maybe the 70’s. No one knew what would happen in the post war world. Remember Japan and West Germany were rehabilitated by the early 50’s.
@@johndeboyace7943 " Who were the critics? Couldn’t have been too many, this was a secret program. If there was mention in the media it was positive until maybe the 70’s." Did you actually watch the video?
@@hilariousname6826 fait accompli before it was reported, there was no outcry by the general public. Einstein, Elinor, a few scientists and communist newspapers. If anything if they were against it, they would have accelerated rated the program. People today can’t understand the world 80 years ago, they didn’t care about hurting some group’s feelings. If someone or something was useful, use it, atom bombs or scientists. You can be outraged whether or not a relative may have been exploited by Von Braun and cronies. If you want to be outraged it would be the fact that so few war criminals were actually executed. The US was complicit in allowing many war criminals to escape punishment or serve short sentences, so what’s a few scientists that are useful.
My commanding officer called the Cold War “a Hot Mess, while we were on the border holding the (Iron) curtain closed, watching the 5th Soviet Shock Army roll onto their side of the border with their brand new T-72s. Nervous times when you were but a speed bump to the Soviet Army.
combatants had no heart to continue,spys were pretty much"taken care of"&scientists were least likely to be in any way violent. "Many that are guilty liv &go unpunished. many that are innocent die &or are recipients of punishment.".G.Davis sr ,Q,galaxy5,theoldmaninthecave
A distinction should be made between those who designed German weapons and those who built them with slave labor. If the former are to be blamed for the millions killed in WWII, then we must also include such men as John Browning, John Garand, Kelly Johnson, Georgy Shpagin, and Sergey Ilyushin. If we focus only on the means of production that involved slave labor, I would be hesitant to heavily implicate German scientists and engineers. They had little sway over such matters, and they could even argue that slaves fared better than those who went to the death houses. This was certainly the case with my cousin who built V1 components while her parents died at the hands of the Nazis. It is a bitter truth, but it is truth nonetheless.
Have you heard of the Nuremberg trials? These scientists aided and abetted the following legally verified crimes: Crimes against the peace while starting a war that cost 70 million human lives, endless suffering, and socio/economic losses that have never been and never will be recovered. War Crimes to a degree and frequency never before or after seen in human history. Crimes Against Humanity in the worst series of genocides and democides ever recorded, when the Nazis murdered 17 million men, women and children.
@@WorldWarTwo Then you might as well indict every German and Japanese citizen who served in the military or worked in the armaments industry. They share in this guilt, but at some point you have to stop and say enough is enough. I think we're arguing over where that line is drawn.
Imagine how differently the cold war would have played out, and how different the world would be, if the US wouldn't have grabbed up scientists and left them to Russia. Definitely hard to go black and white with this one, super grey.
I think it was justified. We have forgotten just how messed up the geopolitical world was in 1945-1950. The US made the mistake of not doing much planning for the future after WWI, we needed to avoid making that mistake again.
Business is business. Capitalism at its finest... Waiting for the "Osoaviakhim" also, to witness how the other side of the iron curtain put aside its ideological necessities one more time in order to gain knowledge and power.
Pretty much think it was immoral. Like they brought Group 935 scientists to built teleportation tech to reach the moon base. Instead they found out a little girl controlled all the zombies, and those zombies nearly killed Castro and JFK
Well, lore wise we wouldn’t know that Group 935 scientist were taken up by Operation Paperclip until Black Ops 4, alongside their moon teleport experiments explaining why zombies are in America. It’s Black Ops 1 we’re zombies break out and nearly kill Castro and JFK (the game itself taking places years after WW2)
Ok doc Brown, are you a member of the nutsee party? “Nein, I removed zee lapel pin” Ok, good, were you a member of the party? “Nein, I never attended any parties, zey vould not allow us to expense zee alcohol” Ok, good, did you ever use forced labor? “Nein, vee always asked nicely to be forced”. Ok, good to go!
Well yes… wait for the episode on the Soviet program to do the same (coming in the next weeks) and you’ll see. But regardless of outrage or not about the Soviets, it’s quite disturbing to see someone think that it’s equally outrageous that the autocratic, freedom hating Soviets did the same as the democratic country that at its foundation is opposed to the horrors of autocracy.
@@WorldWarTwo Hmm I'm seeing a lot of youtubers take this angle recently, the bigger ones anyway. Did your handlers giver you a new script or are you just nuking the US space programs well earned reputation of your own accord? Do tell.
The most remarkable thing about the handled is how they assume that everyone else is also handled. Handled or not, it’s disconcerting to see the moral mental decline in what President Reagan quoted sermon to be a Shining City Upon a Hill. Unlike you, these “RUclipsrs” you speak of understood, like Reagan did, that holding oneself to a higher standard than the scum of the earth is what sets one apart from that scum. But hey, if you like wallowing in the same dirt as Communists, that’s your prerogative.
All european youtube channels : Afternoon : Nothing 19:00 : 15 videos of 15-30 minutes each Stop following the youtube guide of 2014 please, there are too many channels. The 19:00 spam cant go on, please try something else.
![Noob To Max With DRAGON REWORK In Blox Fruits [FULL MOVIE]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LnBMOinoOvA/mqdefault.jpg)
What do you think, was the recruitment of these scientists justified, or was it an immoral undertaking?
Both? Governments don't have morals. They only pretend to have morals when it's convenient.
It certainly makes sense, I don't know about the moral aspect of it, havent quite come to terms with the 'best' argument. Hear bits of it on either side
The theory of convergent intelligence states that we would've come up with our own rockets a couple years later. They should've paid for their crimes.
Childish black and white morality left the conversation long ago.
I can't really imagine a timeline where US security services don't engage in something like paperclip, especially not with the looming cold war.
I really hope you all cover the cold war intensely between here and the korea channel. Particularly I think anti-communist hysteria predating the USSRs existence in the USA and elsewhere deserves a spotlight as do things like the western intervention in the Russia civil war. A lot of recent events illuminate how little the everyman really knows about why and how the cold war happened and I think it's important to dispell the idea the USSR waa some uniquely evil nation that intrisically just couldn't coexist with western powers.
@@randomchannel-px6ho Yes.
"Once the rockets are up, who cares where they come down?
That's not my department, " says Wernher von Braun.
In German oder Englisch I know how to count down
Und I’m learning Chinese says Werner von Braun
As quoted by Tom Lehrer
It's ironic, because Lehrer worked for the OSS, so he at least probably knew the people who recruited the guy
I am not really defending von Braun, but isn't that how all defense production works?
@@fguocokgyloeu4817 von Braun probably at heart was something like 70% committed nazi but he pretended to have been just a scientist. His many denials are just a bit implausible.
Von Braun's autobiography was entitled "I Aim at the Stars". This prompted Mort Sahl to remark: "He aimed at the stars, but frequently hit London".
Astrid''s "Hello Darlings" still makes my day.
Every time!
Thanks for the lovely comment!
Yes, Astrid and Anna Deinhard make a great team. I hope they continue on as there is going to be heaps of material as the Cold War heats up.
My father served with the OSS during the war. He had a lot to say about Operation Paperclip. He called von Braun a "Rocket Whore", believing he would side with any country that would finance his rocket addiction. So as not to throw out any spoilers, I will save a comment from my father, while watching the moon landing in 1969, till part 2 😳
I have a hunch I know what you're going to say.
?
doesn't matter what his opinion was von braun obviously preferred to be with the western allies rather than in the USSR and i'm certain like everyone else the preference gap was immeasurable. nobody wanted to be in the USSR
Holy cliffhanger batman !
@@mikepette4422 Nazis, certainly unrepentant ones, definitely preferred the West.
The Soviets captured their share of German scientists and technicians and put them to work. Hugo Schmeisser, for example, worked at Izhmash, an important Soviet weapons design centre and factory, until 1952. He returned to East Germany and died the following year.
"War's tragedy is that it uses man's best to do man's worst." - Harry Emerson Fosdick
Von Braun once, in his later years, spoke at my engineering college.
Must have been an interesting day, do you remember much?
Thanks!
Having lived in Huntsville, Alabama USA (when i was in college there), if anyone ever visted there, you would think at first glance that Von Braun was a notable city figurehead, and would not have figured he was a former SS scientist, the way we hold such esteem for him and his work. Not to mention he helped build the space research economy that Huntsville is known for now 😊 So I'm not surprised Von Braun was part of the SS.
Fantastic video as always ladies ❤❤❤❤❤ Thank You #TimeGhost
How much fun are these two having!
Must be hard not too when working with a mother daughter duo!
I’m going to miss Spies and Ties during the Korean War! I really am hoping that in addition to Indy’s weekly reports that Anna, Astrid and Sparty make regular or even irregular appearances in the Korean War!! After six years of war with you all, I’ve started feeling like you are old friends! I really enjoy this series and will miss it AND you two very much!
I thought the same. But i think Korea must had spionage too i mean, what War didn't have right?
They will.
Spying will always exist before, during and after wars, it happens during peace time too
Fantastic video, been waiting for this one and can't wait for part 2.
See you there!
Now the war is ending, I do think that Anna could have quite some releases of 'On the homefront' to do'. The return to home of the soldiers, their families, how they cope with going back to usual life, PoWs, widows and orphans, survivors from camps, reconstruction, the feelings of the civil population... quite a lot to cover (and many others I am sure that have not even dawned on me)
Operation paperclip is basically the curb your enthusiasm theme playing constantly in American political policy
My home town hosted Von Braun at the dedication ceremony to Robert Goddard's first liquid-fueled rocket launch. Needless to say, I get a nice chuckle out of the realization my middle-of-nowhere town hosting a nazi war criminal
As long as they serve for the interests of the usa, their past is pretty much clean
"Once the rockets are up, who cares where they come down?
That's not my department" says Wernher von Braun
-Tom Lehrer
Great line from that song, thanks for watching.
Well, that war got cold pretty fast. This is all news to me. As a sidebar, I note how the JIOA included Air Force intelligence as a separate member. The Air Force was indeed covering all bases in its effort to become its own branch of the military.
The number one group of specialists recruited by paperclip were psychologists🤔
"The film, invented by your German scientists, was put into the camera invented by our German scientists, and put into a rocket invented by their German scientists" 'Mr. Jones' Ice Station Zebra.
This mother-daughter dynamic duo is a delight.
I hope Astrid and Anna can be incorporated somehow into the coverage of the Korean War! They add a special "behind the curtain" analysis.
Another interesting OSS agent sent to Europe was former professional baseball player, lawyer, and polyglot Morris 'Moe' Berg. He was under orders to shoot Werner Heisenberg if he thought the Germans were close to making an a-bomb. He concluded they weren't and did not shoot Heisenberg.
I imagine he suffered from great uncertainty over this assignment.
@@T_Mo271 Yes, he was a baseball player, not a killer. I couldn't do that.
it's kinda funny, i heard the first time about this operation just a few days ago in a x-files episode and now you make an amazing video about it, thx ^^ :)
oh! which episode?
Im rewatching😂
Missile Park, located next to Point Mugu Naval Air Station has a US Navy produced Loon, improved version of the V-1.
Worth a drive on Pacific Coast Highway (PCH) in Ventura County in SoCal.
I didn't know that Hugo Eckener was part of Operation Paperclip. The story I remember was that the President of Goodyear, a long-time business partner and personal friend, had used the transparent excuse of his help on airship design to get Eckener to the US to treat him for his post-war health problems. I can see why the Truman admin chose him to defend Paperclip, Eckener was still well-known and well-liked in the US and was contemptuous of the Nazis (though he was perfectly happy to take their money for his company).
Just a comment for the algorithm
You two are an amazing double act. Please carry on into the post war era!
Reminds me of the Loon missile they were going to use for Operation Downfall. Carbon copy of the V1, quite ironic.
I've read Annie Jacobsen's Operation Paperclip. Solid but very readable. Great book! I'm reading her book on DARPA - The Pentagon's Brain now.
Anna Deinhard fashionably rocks.
Indeed she does, she's got a great eye for things and does a lot of the set dressing too!
HI Astrid and Anna
Interesting episode.
By the way your cap is nice.
Thanks for the episode.
I hope you'll also have a chance to go over the US cover up of Japanese war crimes when something like Paperclip was done in Japan.
I thought the whispering bit was great Anna, I like the humor😅
Glad you enjoyed it!
The reality is that if the United States hadn't made deals with these scientists, the Soviets would have captured them. Politics and war occasionally make the least bad option the one to pick.
We didn't have to make heroes of them either tho.
As a Baby Boomer who was led to believe “A Red under every bed.” And the “duck and cover” mentality keeping Nazi scientists out of the hands of the Communist government was nearly our patriotic duty. At the time they saw it as a means to an end with any consequences or repercussions someone else’s problem. Politics indeed does make strange bedfellows.
The Soviets did use nazi scientist. But Operation Osoaviakhim is a lot harder to pronounce so no one cares.
Why this look like something Danzo, from Naruto, would approve?
Most of them are still unknown. Out of over a thousand any given person might be lucky to name 1-4 people.
All those people losing their lives. What a betrayal.
As an American, I am still disturbed how we helped Nazi war criminals escape justice...
There are things more important than justice, and maintaining a strategic advantage in the next world war was one of them.
Yes. Only nazis who were of no use were branded war criminals and faced justice.
The whole thing reeks of hypocrisy, with Nuremberg being little more than a dog and pony show
Whenever anybody answers you with the statement like the human that originally replied to you did...
"There are things more important than justice."
You can be absolutely certain of their hypocrisy and that that opinion of theirs would evaporate the minute the Justice being denied applied to them.
@@Jay-ho9ioI think you don't get the sarcasm.
@@serpentgris it wasn't sarcasm. People did and do act on that very statement.
Thank you Ladies!!!
Thanks for watching!
And by this Hydra was allowed to gain a foothold and we all know how that turned out...
A beautiful parasite inside SHIELD...
See Indies April 1 (year ?) show spoof.
I don't know how that turned out, or maybe I do but don't know that is what. Where do I find out?
I loved Anna whispering. That was great.
Von Braun had limited choices of who to surrender to. NO ONE wanted to surrender to the Soviets and Braun didn’t think the British were a good idea since that’s where most of his rockets had landed! The French were out just because they were the French! Braun had also seen the ruins Europe was in that the US had escaped so the US it would be.
Actually, Robert Goddard is credited with building the first liquid fueled rocket.
Given that the US also helped war criminal Klaus Barbie flee to Bolivia, it might be interesting to explore the extent of US sponsored 'rat lines' including legal, economic and political support provided by the US to these ex-regime figures either directly or through US allies / host countries. Did the US in fact perpetuate Third Reich assets and methods both within Germany and around the world? Sounds a bit mental but also kind of plausible in the context of the Cold War.
Note / update - after a quick search I discovered a US government report on this topic that you can google titled:
HITLER’S SHADOW Nazi War Criminals, U.S. Intelligence, and the Cold War
By Richard Breitman and Norman J.W. Goda
Published by the National Archives
The US. Department of Justice has a Report for the Attorney General of the United States (October 1992) by the Office of Special Investigations, Criminal Division titled: "In the Matter of Josef Mengele"
@@olliestudio45 Mengele died in Brazil in the 70's iirc
Google "Reinhard Gehlen". He ran the Wiemar Republic (ie pre Nazi) intelligence service, the Nazi military intelligence service and the West German intelligence service. Seemed to be one of those guys who loved his work and did not much care who he worked for.
A cliffhanger from my two favorite correspondents! (Sorry to the handsome gentlemen) thanks for the episode. Were we able to infiltrate Japan as we did in Europe?
"a screaming comes across the sky. It has happened before, but there is nothing to compare it to now"
Astrid and Anna always give us a well researched very well presented video.
‘Hello Darlings’ always makes me smile as do the occasions when Astrid makes comments and little jokes when Spartacus or Indy are presenting.
Loving Indy’s Korean War series too.
I look forward to future series on the wars and conflicts post WW2 such as the Malayan Emergency, the Vietnam War, the First Gulf War and others.
Thanks to all of the team for many hours of interesting educational content. 👍
The Japanese running Unit 731 in China got the same treatment
Von Brauhn sure got a sweet deal.
He also delivered what the USA wanted. Big rockets.
"Like a phoenix burning bright/ In the skyyyyyyyyyy,/ I'll show there's another side to me,/ You can't denyyyyyyyy!/ I may not know what future holds,/ But hear me when I saaaaaaaay/ That my past does not define me,/ 'Cause my past is not todaaaaaaaay!"
Great video! Lots of background information. It is good to know that not all Americans were pro inviting nazi scientist. And they had the freedom to speak out their mind. That's democracy. But a democracy also has to defend itself from outside agressors, I got the feeling that during the cold war American society and politics were so "afraid" of communist influence that the left side of the political spectrum was silenced.
By your channel I got an interest in the difference in American politics before and after WW2. And that after WW2 and after president Roosevelt the Democratic presidents were a very different kind of Democratic.It's also good to mention that this reaction, is made by an European person.
The last thing that I like to mention is the way World War Two Series is trying to be as much objective as can be. Great work! And a great source of information!
Tom Bower's books, "Blind Eye to Murder" [post-war cover-up of widespread, generalised atrocities in Europe, done mostly by Nazis]
and another, "Paperclip Conspiracy", examined selection of those guilty of war crimes but not prosecuted, being deemed useful to the USA.
Amazing how they knew who these scienetist were and which ones they wanted to bring to the USA. The moral question took a backseat to making sure these scientist were not working for the Soviets. Were there any nuclear phycisist brought to the USA? The motivation might have been to keep them away from the Soviets. Looking forward to part 2. Great video. 😊
got my does of "dawlins'" . i feel better now :) ... joking aside, lovely job as always, informative and well delivered, ty :)
Vasily Malyshkin, a former Red Army major-general, was captured by the Germans and joined Vlasov's Russian Liberation Army, in which he was also a major-general. He surrendered to the Americans in 1945 and told them what he knew of Red Army organisation, and the Americans were certainly receptive to his info. Not unlike their use of Nazi scientists and experts.
SPOILER
Nonetheless, the Americans handed him back to the Soviets in early 1946, and he was later executed in Moscow.
I know my question may come across as whataboutism (I'm of Korean descent), but:
Will there be a similar video or post about the Japanese scientists granted immunity in exchange for their biological, chemical, and medical research? It is said that the US made use of Japan's chemical weapons research during the Korean War (which TimeGhost recently launched a series on!).
There will be, but not before the war is over there too…
@@WorldWarTwoI figured, considering the channel is going in chronological order. I was just wondering if it was in the cards.
Thanks for all that y'all do! Looking forward to more WW2, Korean War, and other TimeGhost projects!
USSR launched the first artificial satellite, Sputnik, and the first man into space.
Guess they did it with only Soviet brains.
Turns out they didnt ;), well cover that in the episode after next, Osoaviachim!
If Knowledge is power, does that mean batteries are smart?
The von Braun song was playing in my head while I watched this.
Operation Paperclip is harmless compared to the USA trying to use Unit 731's "research" data.
We use some research by mengele.
It seems discarding the research is even more wasteful than using what came about in tragic ways to serve humanity.
In amount of lives saved Unit 731 by far was beneficial to humanity.
@@TheIfifi Can you point out anything specific that Mengele did that was actually useful?
@@FortuneZer0 AFAIK the only thing remotely useful was their research on hypothermia. I don't know the details.
Yes. His research into genetics, his twin studies were very well documented.
Horrible experiments but helped support thesis.
Fantastic episode and love the chapeaus! Thank you, darlings!
Thanks for watching.
WOOOOW....seeing you wo side by side, you look more alike than I thought.
I am super late to this, but I honestly don't remember being taught this in school, and that's with a teacher who loved teaching WW2 history.
You two make an awesome team presenting the spy side of the war. Bravo!
Well done, ladies! Thank you!
Thanks for watching!
Awesome video. What A.I. did you use to have Christina Applegate and Joan Collins of the 90's to present it? They were awesome. Good work!
.????
🤣
"Ach! Nazt, Schmatzie!" says Werhner Von Braun! (Tom Lehrer}
I read the book ‘American Raiders’ about Watson‘s Whizzers and operation lusty ( Luftwaffe secret technologies. ). What I found interesting is that despite the poor condition of Germany after the war, quite a few of the German technicians decided to return to Germany after being in the United States for less than a year or so, and there were even one or two suicides by the Germans. It is a very complex issue and even after having read a 400 page book you are still left wondering…what if we had left them behind? The Russians by comparison got mostly the manufacturing people and not the original design engineers. The Russians never trusted them so despite having, for all practical purposes, abducted them, they really never got that much out of taking the German technicians. There was, however, one exception who was an expert at manufacturing rockets, although he could not design them, and he did help them with their rocket production..
Astrid and Anna, I never knew about Wagner's anti-ship weapon. Thank-you for teaching me something new today. 🇺🇸🤝🇩🇪
Wonderful episode and also wonderful outfits that could be straight out of an old James Bond movie. Thank you, ladies!
I once was told that a far relative (like cousin of my grandfather) was paperclipped then as a member of the team in Peenemünde.
Yes, this was done after ending of WWII. Both sides were equally responsible.
yes, yes, and yes. Also yes. My headmaster was more focused on our performance of Faust rather than finding a replacement math teacher...
25:16 so later GY blimps had some Nazi connections?!
Anna and Astrid are utterly charming and funny, as always.
I still remember watching the movie Rat Race back in 2006...there was a scene in which a family visits a museum they think is dedicated to Barbie the doll. Unfortunately the museum is run by neonazis and dedicated to Klaus Barbie, the Butcher of Lyon...it made laugh. At first I thought Klaus Barbie was fictional until I did some research and found out that he actually existed...To my surprise he was one of the many nazis who fled to South America and even lived in Peru (my country) for a few years. I still find it ironic that it was through a movie starring Rowan Atkinson and Cuba Gooding Jr that I learned of the existance of a Nazi who lived in my country....
09:00 ? What of the Manhattan Project and associated development of the B29? Both underway at the end of the war in Europe and both would be proven as wonder weapons.
FOMO on a national scale.
What does this channel have to say about Fu fighters and UFOs? The Nazis had more interesting projects like Hanabu and Die Glocke. During a discussion about Nazi research, Werner Von Braun pointed over to the UFO section of NASA's library and said "We had help from them".
Go to "history" channel when you want to hear about UFOs
How did Von Braun break his arm btw ? Was it during his capture ? (Not asking out of compassion btw, it’s pure schadenfreude 😅)
Car accident from memory.
👍👍👍
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"Even Truman does not know". I totally do not see this turning into a shadowy practice by an unaccountable shadow state that will grow a tail of its own and cause all sorts of intrigue and problems concerning transparency of public power
That girl should be on the cover of Vogue Magazine!😊😊
I doubt if German scientists would have been much use to the Soviet Union as far as developing atomic weapons went. Guided missiles and jet engines, yes, but not the atom bomb.
It’s easy to criticize something that happened nearly 80 years ago. Born during war and remember the Cold War, loss of China, purge of non-communists in Eastern Europe, collapse of French Indochina, Korean War, Berlin Wall, Cuban Missile Crisis, etc. Also, hardly any war criminals are actually executed in either the European or Pacific Theaters by the western Allies. Von Braun was all over the TV in the late 50’s and into the 60’s. The outrage was very muted and I don’t remember much controversy at least in 50’s and 60’s.
The fact that it’s from an era long past doesn’t mean that you can’t criticise it. But when criticising something from former times, we have to keep the norms and values and such from that time in mind. As was shown in the video, even back then there were a lot of critics of the program. That shouldn’t prevent you from looking critically at the program nowadays.
You can criticize, but there was no time to come up with alternatives. Who were the critics? Couldn’t have been too many, this was a secret program. If there was mention in the media it was positive until maybe the 70’s. No one knew what would happen in the post war world. Remember Japan and West Germany were rehabilitated by the early 50’s.
@@johndeboyace7943 " Who were the critics? Couldn’t have been too many, this was a secret program. If there was mention in the media it was positive until maybe the 70’s." Did you actually watch the video?
@@hilariousname6826 fait accompli before it was reported, there was no outcry by the general public. Einstein, Elinor, a few scientists and communist newspapers. If anything if they were against it, they would have accelerated rated the program. People today can’t understand the world 80 years ago, they didn’t care about hurting some group’s feelings. If someone or something was useful, use it, atom bombs or scientists. You can be outraged whether or not a relative may have been exploited by Von Braun and cronies. If you want to be outraged it would be the fact that so few war criminals were actually executed. The US was complicit in allowing many war criminals to escape punishment or serve short sentences, so what’s a few scientists that are useful.
Gonna miss you ladies ♥ Unless of course that you cover the cold war. But you wouldn't take that on, would you?
😉
My commanding officer called the Cold War “a Hot Mess, while we were on the border holding the (Iron) curtain closed, watching the 5th Soviet Shock Army roll onto their side of the border with their brand new T-72s. Nervous times when you were but a speed bump to the Soviet Army.
I've always had a question. Why pick the brains of people that killed more building a weapon than using it? Never did sound smart to me.
combatants had no heart to continue,spys
were pretty much"taken care of"&scientists
were least likely to be in any way violent.
"Many that are guilty liv &go unpunished.
many that are innocent die &or are
recipients of punishment.".G.Davis sr
,Q,galaxy5,theoldmaninthecave
If the Nazis found a cure for cancer in a concentration would it be used or destroyed after the war ? (unit 731 in China)
A distinction should be made between those who designed German weapons and those who built them with slave labor. If the former are to be blamed for the millions killed in WWII, then we must also include such men as John Browning, John Garand, Kelly Johnson, Georgy Shpagin, and Sergey Ilyushin. If we focus only on the means of production that involved slave labor, I would be hesitant to heavily implicate German scientists and engineers. They had little sway over such matters, and they could even argue that slaves fared better than those who went to the death houses. This was certainly the case with my cousin who built V1 components while her parents died at the hands of the Nazis. It is a bitter truth, but it is truth nonetheless.
Have you heard of the Nuremberg trials? These scientists aided and abetted the following legally verified crimes:
Crimes against the peace while starting a war that cost 70 million human lives, endless suffering, and socio/economic losses that have never been and never will be recovered.
War Crimes to a degree and frequency never before or after seen in human history.
Crimes Against Humanity in the worst series of genocides and democides ever recorded, when the Nazis murdered 17 million men, women and children.
@@WorldWarTwo Then you might as well indict every German and Japanese citizen who served in the military or worked in the armaments industry. They share in this guilt, but at some point you have to stop and say enough is enough. I think we're arguing over where that line is drawn.
As you’ll see in episode two, these distinctions were also made for the scientists…
@@WorldWarTwo I'm looking forward to it. Thanks.
Astrid has an impersonator beside her.
Flattered?
How many of Germany’s finest priests and politicians did Operation Paperclip bring to the USA?
so,you kids doan see anything sus in the huge
cast,on his left arm,may or may not defeat an
X-ray search???
Imagine how differently the cold war would have played out, and how different the world would be, if the US wouldn't have grabbed up scientists and left them to Russia. Definitely hard to go black and white with this one, super grey.
Woooooooooooooo!
I think it was justified. We have forgotten just how messed up the geopolitical world was in 1945-1950. The US made the mistake of not doing much planning for the future after WWI, we needed to avoid making that mistake again.
Business is business. Capitalism at its finest... Waiting for the "Osoaviakhim" also, to witness how the other side of the iron curtain put aside its ideological necessities one more time in order to gain knowledge and power.
Pretty much think it was immoral. Like they brought Group 935 scientists to built teleportation tech to reach the moon base. Instead they found out a little girl controlled all the zombies, and those zombies nearly killed Castro and JFK
Was that CoD: Black Ops? I remember the zombie mode in the game started with them.
Well, lore wise we wouldn’t know that Group 935 scientist were taken up by Operation Paperclip until Black Ops 4, alongside their moon teleport experiments explaining why zombies are in America. It’s Black Ops 1 we’re zombies break out and nearly kill Castro and JFK (the game itself taking places years after WW2)
4th, 11 July 2024
Comment for algoritm : )
Ok doc Brown, are you a member of the nutsee party?
“Nein, I removed zee lapel pin”
Ok, good, were you a member of the party?
“Nein, I never attended any parties, zey vould not allow us to expense zee alcohol”
Ok, good, did you ever use forced labor?
“Nein, vee always asked nicely to be forced”.
Ok, good to go!
@@balabanasireti hard time accepting that’s essentially what they did eh.
Was anyone "outraged" about the Soviets doing the same thing ?
Propaganda never dies.
Well yes… wait for the episode on the Soviet program to do the same (coming in the next weeks) and you’ll see. But regardless of outrage or not about the Soviets, it’s quite disturbing to see someone think that it’s equally outrageous that the autocratic, freedom hating Soviets did the same as the democratic country that at its foundation is opposed to the horrors of autocracy.
@@WorldWarTwo Hmm I'm seeing a lot of youtubers take this angle recently, the bigger ones anyway. Did your handlers giver you a new script or are you just nuking the US space programs well earned reputation of your own accord? Do tell.
The most remarkable thing about the handled is how they assume that everyone else is also handled. Handled or not, it’s disconcerting to see the moral mental decline in what President Reagan quoted sermon to be a Shining City Upon a Hill. Unlike you, these “RUclipsrs” you speak of understood, like Reagan did, that holding oneself to a higher standard than the scum of the earth is what sets one apart from that scum. But hey, if you like wallowing in the same dirt as Communists, that’s your prerogative.
@@WorldWarTwo Rocket science is now scum of the earth? Ok buddy.
@@WorldWarTwo How much is amazon paying you?
What is new here?
All european youtube channels :
Afternoon : Nothing
19:00 : 15 videos of 15-30 minutes each
Stop following the youtube guide of 2014 please, there are too many channels. The 19:00 spam cant go on, please try something else.
We usually publish at 15:30, but sometimes we just don’t get things done fast enough to meet that deadline… today was such a day.