I've just woken up this morning to lots of great comments - I'll reply individually, but just wanted to say that you are the best! Thank you for being generous with your knowledge and taking the time to share it! Short of owning every single paint by every single company, I'm always going to be curious about this kind of stuff!
Winsor and Newton Professional are my favourite brand overall if I had to pick one. Their colours are the most transparent and clearest of any brand I’ve used so far. The gel like quality you described seems to be generally more the case with low tinting strength and earth colours, and I’ve come across this gel or gummy consistency in a couple of Daniel Smith earth colours too. I think there may be more binder in colours that use heavier pigments. I particularly love a lot of Daniel Smith colours, but painting side by side, in my experience, I feel like the mainstream WN colours are a bit more transparent. Given that I love both brands, it depends which vibe I’m going for in a painting. Winsor Yellow, Transparent Yellow, Sap green, Perylene Green, Olive Green, Manganese Blue, French Ultramarine, Phathlo Turquoise, Paynes Grey, Quin Magenta, Perm Rose, Winsor Red, Raw Umber, Sepia, Burnt Sienna, Winsor Violet, Transparent Orange and Indanthrene Blue are some of the WN colours I use the most. Out of these, only the Raw Umber can be a little gummy at times. The WN Quin Magenta is by far my favourite out of any brand; it’s such a bright and beautiful PR122. Their Winsor Violet, like the DS version of PV23, has a drying shift, but the WN version dries a bit more vibrant.The WN Indanthrene Blue is a green leaning version as opposed to the DS red leaning, and is an excellent dark blue. These two PB60s are so different, it's worth having both. The WN is similar to Prussian Blue, but more lightfast, and mixes lovely greens. Sorry for the essay, I could talk about paints all day. Thanks for the videos! :) Also I LOVE your splodge and scribble paintings, and the one you did here is great, I don't think it needed the lines in this case, it's beautifully loose and expressive, capturing the feel of the subject so nicely! :)
I love the Winsor and Newton Quinacridone Magenta too. One of my most used color. And I love their perylene Green. Just such a mood. And the Olive Green is maybe the only green I just use as it is without mixing another color into it. (Well, and sometimes the perylene Green as well, but that‘s technically black, so…) I love the colors you listed, a very nice palette!
Thank you so much for such a lovely detailed reply!! I really appreciate it! Because I don't have lots of these more common colours from W&N, this is useful to know. That makes sense that the gel quality comes with the lower tinting strength pigments. I just hadn't noticed it quite so much with my lower tinting paints from other companies. I'm curious what you think about Sennelier paints? I think some of theirs have wonderful transparency too.
I've noticed that the gel-like paints that I've run into are also a low pigment-to-binder ratio; so you simply can't use them like the other colors, because essentially you are gathering up a higher load of binder, whilest trying to get more color payoff. It might be best to think of those specific colors as being more of a "glazing paint/color" - and use them that way, since if you use them that way they will disperse better and the gel quality should virtually disappear. So if they start to feel gel-like while using them, you are using too much paint and not enough water, essentially... which will always produce a very light application of color.
Thank you - that's a really good suggestion - I just need to view them differently and change my expectations! The thing I'd add though, is that after this video, I experimented with more low tinting strength watercolours from various brands, and though not strong, I could still achieve relatively smooth washes with them, though I couldn't from some of the W&N ones.
Hi Helen … Gum Arabic is essentially glue. I’m guessing some pigments are more difficult to bind and therefore have more gum Arabic in the formulation. I’ve also noticed with those kinds of pigments, the formulation for the pans vs tubes is very different. For example, Cobalt Violet is. Notorious for being difficult to rewet and that’s why I use the pan version from W&N. It doesn’t have the gum Arabic/glue issue and resets beautifully. ( Same with Rose Dore)
Thank you, what you say about Gum Arabic that makes a lot of sense! All of these except two were bought as pans versions though - the Cobalt Violet and Rose Doré were pans (and my two from tubes were OK).
@@helencryer Essentially, oil, gum arabic and acrylic emulsions are just glues that help the dry pigment adhere to whatever surface you are painting on. They might have other properties, such as opacity or gloss. But essentially, they are adhesives, hence the name binder. The binder binds the dry pigment to the surface..
I can't comment about W&N but I know EXACTLY what you mean. In my Turner Artist's 18 tube set, the Maya yellow, Maya red and Maya blue all feel like they have a clear gel base and are not very saturated. They are very streaky and remind me of childrens' finger paint. The other colors in the set are top quality and very pigmented and for the price make an excellent intro to professional grade watercolors, but they could just as easily leave the Maya colors out. Interesting video. Thanks
Well that was fun. Don't have many Winsor & Newton paints I must say, probably only a dozen all up and all in tubes. Totally see what you mean about those certain paints. You can immediately tell when you lay them down, lots of little bubbles and a visible brush mark. As far as a mixing palette, I think it was a fabulous palette of colours. I love the mix on the top left. We're debating front door colours for the house at the moment and that one would be spectacular 😁
I have most of these colours from W&N professional range. Some tubes some pans. I have the new Ultramarine Ash for the same reason you bought it! I only have the goopy gel effect when I paint on cheap and hotpress paper. With less tinting colours, I embrace that, rather than try to get so much pigment I'm almost expecting the darkness of prussian blue. I know they are watercolours, but sometimes the ratio water to paint isn't quite right on cheap paper or card. I'll add a medium if I'm not getting a good balance - or swap paper or build up layers rather than achieve the desired colour in one go. I think Ultramarine Ash is a lot like the cotman metallic blue but without mica glitter. I added potters pink and shimmer medium to my Cotman shimmer set. It works well to widen the colour range. I also added a dark blue and shimmer and a Quinacridone Violet and shimmer. I'm still exploring those paints.
Yes, you're definitely right about not expecting the same thing from low tinting strength watercolours as high tinting ones. I will definitely have a play on different papers, thank you. My only comment though would be that even on the same paper as used in the video, low tinting strength paints from other brands fared much better and still didn't streak.
I just had to test my W&N paints quickly after seeing this. I did start with W&N, as my local art store was selling them for a reduced price as they stopped selling W&N products. So I do have a little soft spit for them as my first exploration into watercolor. I definitely get the gel like thing with Terre Verte, I love the color, but always disliked the texture of the paint. I as well did see it in the Rose doré and a little bit in the permanent rose. The gel milk like thing I noticed in the Potters Pink, Cobalt Violet and Permanent Mauve. And the PY150 colors are a bit gel like as well. In some of them it is more manageable in a painting, but the Terre Verte is a pain to work with. Comparing some of them, I have not had the problem with the PV19 in Van Gogh and Daniel Smith. The PY150/PO48 Gamboge from Rembrandt did have the gel like texture as well, but seems more manageable to work around it. PV15 (Rembrandt) and PV16 (Schmincke) seem to have the milky gel problem a little bit, but as well, with a little work, it isn’t as streaky as the W&N once. So I do see it in other brands as well, but maybe a little less. But then, my collection of W&N colors is bigger than the others, so a bit difficult to compare brands. I haven’t noticed it with my Daniel Smith and my Isaro watercolors. With the Schmincke I do see it in some of the paints, Rembrandt/van Gogh as well in some of them. I think your assumption about it being seen more in harder to rewet colors is very accurate. As I definitely don’t see it in all the W&N colors. Sorry, very long comment and probably not much help at all. Interesting experiments : ) Have a wonderful weekend, Mirjam
And as some are saying it is a pan vs tube issue, I have all the colors I tested in pans, not tube, not dried from tubes, but bought in pans. And I still have the same issue as you have. Especially with the Terre Verte and Rose doré.
Thanks ever so much for your detailed comment & I'm genuinely grateful to you for giving it thought, and it helps build up a picture of what different watercolours are like! I think I'm coming to the conclusion that 1) it's all low tinting colours to some extent, possibly because more binder is required for those pigments, and 2) Even among lower tinting watercolours from other brands, the W&N ones seem a bit more streaky. (For example, after this video I was playing with different Green Earths from other brands, and though they had the same milkiness, they still didn't dry in the streaky way as the W&N ones.)
Yes, I have the same feeling, the other brands are a bit more workable. And the streakyness can be “painted out”. I just love to compare and test. Thank you so much for an interesting and thought provoking video. I had a blast. And my desk was a big mess after I did get all of my palettes out and tried so many colors. So much fun. I love that kind of playing.
I have noticed that on some of my paints, but they aren’t professional quality yet. That’s why I watch these to get some idea on the various colors and quality. I love you seem to personally know all your paints. I think that’s one of the reasons I enjoy your content.
Hi Helen! Very useful, thank you ❤ I love your little painting it reminds me of the travel scarves of the ‘50s & ‘60s. Lovely. I’ve never used W&N, really. Only because I landed on other pro brands and just stayed with them. I’m very curious about them so this was helpful . Thanks again!
Thanks ever so much! Yes, I already loved Daniel Smiths and Senneliers before I even tried a W&N, which is why I have fewer of the regular W&N colours.
I've had that streaking in my WN rose dore too, also cad scarlet and an ancient cobalt green. All 4 of my watercolor sticks from them are the same... those may have been discontinued. I'm haven't bought too many WN because I found them unreliable and they're not especially inexpensive here. I have those colors in other brands without any issues, and have run across that same goopy texture in a set of Schmincke H...especially cobalt azure, fr. Ultramarine and potters pink. Same thing with several Turner Artist... viridian, maya yellow and red, cobalt violet and turquoise blue. I've always assumed it was an imbalance with some of the harder-to-rewet pigments in some brands. They work better with lots of water, but can't get near mass tone.
Thank you, that's really interesting. It definitely seems to be the less strongly tinting paints. I have one Schmincke like that, but not many from other brands. I've not tried Turners though.
You kept mentioning the gel-like quality of the paints, made me think it was like painting with jello that had not yet set. Seeing the comments has been impressive, so many have mentioned how paint tubes vs paint pans are different, re-wetting difficulties, really interesting to see perspective from others. Really interesting video!!
Hi Helen-I enjoy your work so very much and appreciate all the reviews and swatching and plein air painting you provide for us. My painting instructor always said there is no substitute for Arches watercolor paper, cold press. 😊 I do some swatching on less expensive paper and some practice, but mostly it’s Arches for me. She said you don’t have to buy the best brushes, or even the best paints, but don’t skimp on watercolor paper. I have never enjoyed Winsor & Newton paints personally. My favorite brands are Schmincke, M Graham, and Sennelier. I realize these choices are not for everyone, but thought I would add my two cents. Thanks again for all you do!
Thank you so much for your input! I really like Sennelier, and have lots of Schmincke and one M. Graham, which I enjoy. I have some Arches CP paper, but find it too rough to really enjoy. I also really love granulating paints, and it doesn't show them off at their best. I know it's great for glazes though, and layered work. Personally I found a better brush made the most difference (one that could actually hold water!), but I've still not been doing watercolours for that long, so my opinions might change as I (hopefully) develop!
It’s lovely you write out replies to all of us. Thank you for taking the time. I’m a beginner, too, and your channel has helped me in so many ways. You have a wonderful natural gift and I’m so impressed with how you develop it. Everything you paint is fascinating and imaginative. I enjoy learning about all your choices for art supplies (I’ve purchased many of your suggestions) and your thinking behind the work. I agree, a good brush is important, and I am going to try smoother paper to see what kinds of results I can achieve. Lastly, I could listen to your soothing voice all day long. Thanks again for all the time you devote to your channel. It is so enjoyable, and every time I open RUclips the first thing I look for is a video from you!
80% of my watercolours are Windsor and Newton, but the only one I’ve noticed to be ‘gloopy’ is the Potter’s Pink, which is why I don’t use it very much!
Interesting discussion. I would say the heavier pigments, grainier pigments and pigments with a tendency to clump together will need more binder. Just as a heavier piece of paper needs more glue to stick it to anything. The manufacturer has to play safe and produce a product that works across the board. If you were binding your own v14 (for instance) you could work your own ratio… which might be min binder/max pigment. Big Manufacturer also wants to make profit and lots of these heavy pigments (like v14) are expensive, so they go minimum pigment they can get away with, + more binder. Good way to test that gloopy look… i took a w+n that isn’t gloopy out of the box (v19 for instance) and added some extra gum Arabic (or Aquapasto)(or glycerine). Thanks for kicking this topic off ))
Hi Helen, I think the person to ask will be Lindsay the Frugal Crafter since she has been working with Windsor and Newton Pro and student grade lines in the mid 90s. I will say this once Lindsay mention that the Windsor and Newton Cotman were being made in China and that the Pro line some paints were also coming from China. She was wondering if they change the formulation on the Pro line because for the Cotman they did change the formulation once it came from China. It use to be all made in France. I have no issues with the pro line of Windsor and Newton, I have some half pans and tubes that I bought from Jacksons art a few years ago. I recently just bought 6 tubes have the new granulators and have no issues. Last year many US stores got rid of Windsor and Newton so I bought like 6 tubes and many are older but have not found any issues. So it you might want to check where your tubes were made. On a brighter note, since now you are more experience with paints it could also be a change of brands since it looks like you prefer more transparent paints. Maria
That's interesting, thank you! I'm just wondering if W&M use more Fun Arabic than some other brands, and that this is more obvious in the lower tinting colours. I definitely do like my easy to re-wet, fast flowing, transparent colours!
I don't believe there is anything wrong with these particular WN paint consistencies. If you take DS Green Apatite Genuine, it is extremely "gelatinous" out of the tube and cracks terribly in the pan. The binder always splits from the pigment which has me convinced it's the character of the pigment that needs a higher viscosity binder to keep it evenly suspended. Enjoy your paints, you have a lovely collection.💛
Thanks! I'm not suggesting there is something 'wrong' with the paints, just curious about whether this effect is more noticeable with W&N watercolours. In my experience so far (I did experimenting after this video) lots of lower tinting strength paints of different brands have some of the milky, gel consistency to them, but some of the W&N paints lay down more streakily than other brands. My Green Apatite Genuine (from tube into pan) rewets fine, and has quite nice flow to it, without any of the streakiness I'm talking about.
Your explanation of the ‘gel’ being slow flowing looks quite accurate - I had noticed it with the Rose Dore by comparison to the lemon and orange. Hmm… it would be interesting to know whether there’s an additive in those. As you’re mixing them in the pans it’s extremely evident of the milkiness - almost like gouache - less transparent. 👍🐨
I'm wondering if it's the Gum Arabic, which is then more noticeable in low tinting strength colours. I don't know if W&N use more than other companies though, because to me it seems more noticeable with their brand.
My W&N box needed a bit of a clean up so I thought I would take a look at the gloopiness thing, and I have two colours that definitely do this. Potters Pink and Terre Verte. Both are quite granular pigments, and not highly pigmented. Others have said they have noticed this effect in other brands too. I was not sure what paper you were using, I used a CassArt cup cycle notebook I always use for swatching as it takes paint pretty well. It’s not madly absorbent though. So here is my theory, that the paints that do this have larger pigments and therefore need a different ratio of gum Arabic to other colours. This is both to bind them and hold them in suspension so they do not sink in the pans. This may also be why some manufacturers prefer extruded pans over poured ones which surely must be more labour intensive. I noticed that the finer colours I have mostly went on with no gloominess but may have had more oxgall as they went on smoother and more evenly, one such was Prussian blue which I know is an absolute pain to handmull because it is so fluffy and fine. There’s a great deal of difference in the way pigments handle, better manufacturers allow each one to shine in its own way, but do try and find a balance in making them as uniform to use as is practical. An example of how some colours in other ranges sometimes are gloopy is the DS primateks, but not all of them…. I do not mind quirkiness in the way things handle, it is whether it irritates you or not. I absolutely love Sennelier, but when I first open my palette find they want to suck my brush dry, they really like moisture, to the point they feel sticky, maybe because of the honey, though RS paints seem not to do that! I found the W&N revival neutrals to dry down far more intensely than I expected and lost the delicacy they had in the tubes. Now I know they dry that way I will use them sparingly and dilute them accordingly. I actually really love them! I had no red other than sienna in the set I put them in, but managed to make a passable and interesting red by overlaying the Tyrian purple onto the orange, and think using a textural approach could get something very vibrant. Apologies! I have deviated from the gloopiness issue…. Renewing my acquaintance with W&N has reminded me just why they are so well regarded….. PS have you tried the Schmincke Opera Rose?
Thanks so much for all your thoughts on this - it's really interesting!! I totally agree that we should accept the differing qualities of different paints, and play to their strengths. I was just curious about W&N being more streaky than other comparable colours, really. I have quite a few Primateks, and they definitely have their individual peculiarities, but even so, none seem to be as streaky.
Hi Hellen! If you can read another opinion.... :D Because I am from germany, my go to brand has always been Schmincke. But through other artists and videos I was curious to try other brands too and Winsor and Newton was the easiest to get. I bought a few colours over time, but was disappointed almost every time. The worst buy was Davy's Grey. I just cant get it from pan onto paper. Also Rose Doré is .. I don't know. I never use it. The Opera Pink can't compete against the one from Schmincke. :) The one I like: Aquagreen. :D
Hello Helen, some shades are annoyingly gel like as Terre vert and potters pink from WN and Verone gold ochre from DS. I have tubes dried in pans no issues with most of the colors I own.
Yes, thanks! I was wondering if W&N paints seems to be worse offenders than the other brands' low tinting strength paints though. For example, after the video I was playing around with some, and Roman Szmal's Green Earth definitely had some of the milky gel-like property, but I could still get a smooth wash with it, but I couldn't with some of the W&N ones.
I’m guessing the slightly gel-like quality I too have found in some of Winsor & Newton pans is due to the fact that they are all colours that are typically hard to re-wet pigments and so they add a little more glycerin to those particular pan colours. I’m just guessing though.
I was JUST about to swatch my new Revival tubes when i saw this video. I've found this gluey consistency/quality you mention over several brands and not exclusively to W&N. As you mentioned, it's usually in low tinting/hard to re-wet pigments, mostly PG23 and PV14. Schmincke's Green Earth PG23 shares this for me (my first watercolor tube disappointment) and also their Volcano Yellow PY159, as well as Rembrandt tube of Cobalt Violet PV14 that i was recommended to buy the pan form of that pigment in their line! Old Holland has a few watercolor in their line that also produce this quality and one tube I have issue from Daniel Smith is Verona Gold Ochre. Love Winsor & Newton professional range watercolors and and their vibrancy. Just purchased 7 more 14ml tubes. I've purchased half pans and tubes and have no preference. Not sure if the new revival half pans of Ultramarine Ash and Mineral Grey would re-wet easier than directly from the tube or dried tube paint.
Thanks for your input on other paint too! I have noticed it too, with other low tinting watercolours from other brands, but my W&N ones are the worst for streaking. My revival paints were bought as half pans.
I've recently bought my first Daniel Smith watercolour. It's Cobalt Violet and it has the same texture that you're talking about, the gluey gel like consistency. It also has a very low tinting strength. I was really disappointed and hope that not all the Daniel Smith watercolours are like this? Thanks Helen for an interesting video.😊
No, I think Cobalt Violets are all very low tinting strength, though I haven't tried Daniel Smith's one specifically. In general I love Daniel Smith watercolours, and if I could only pick one brand forever this would be it. My ideal palette would be a mixture of quite a few brands, but many would be from DS. Please don't give up on them!!!
I haven't had any problems with W&N but I only have a couple of tubes. They are very expensive in Australia and there are other brands I prefer. PY 3 is my preferred lemon but it isn't as lightfast as Winsor Lemon.
I'm not sure I'd go so far as to call it a problem - more a personal preference thing, that I was curious about. Yes, that's true about the Lightfastness.
I only have on color from Winsor&Newton and it's the rose dore, but mine doesn't have a gel-like consistency. I love it because it's quite transparent and flows very nicely and i use it a lot in portraits.
Hello Helen, that is so funny. I just swatched my watercolors (again 😊) last week and found some of the pigments had that same quality, which I never noticed before. But since I noticed this with different brands, I can only attribute it to the pigments, as some of the comments have already stated. It is mostly the pigments that have a low tinting strength and more on the brands that use gum arabica. However none of them had it as much as the paints you were showing. With my Qor and M.Graham paints, I noticed it only with PV14 but not with the Cerulean or other Cobalts. 😊😊 In the end I always go back to my Qor paints for their clarity.
Yes, I think that's the conclusion I'm drawing - the Gum Arabic is more noticeable across many brands with the low tinting strength paints, however the worst of the streaking seems to be with my W&N's. Have you tried Sennelier at all? I think they also have lovely clarity.
@@helencryer I have not tried them, but I’m shying a bit away from honey. I have bought some M.Grahams when I was in the US last year and even though I like them, the paint that was poured into pans, started to smell pretty bad, once my art room started to heat up because of summer. But I can see how the honey is helping to give the pigment clarity. The Viridian from M.Graham is absolutely gorgeous. 😊
Ive been using windsor and newton professional watercolours for a while now, ive not noticed it too much personally, i found the daler rowney aquafine to be more gloopy. I wonder if its the more opaque pigments, Or maybe the granulating pigments that are the gloopy ones?
Thank you! I haven't tried the Aquafines at all, so that's interesting to hear. I don't think it was especially the case for the opaque ones - the Caput Mortuum was probably one of the least like that, but from other brands especially, I've virtually never come across this quality (I think just one Schmincke Supergranulating paint out of about 20 I have does it.)
I think Aquafine are Daler-Rowney’s student colours, their professional range are called Artist’s watercolours. I have a set of the latter, they are really very little different to W&N professional that also used to be called Artists Casstill they had a rebrand. The D-R artists are made in the U.K. I think maybe CassArt has a collab with them, their tiny 1/4 pan palette is most certainly from the same stable, and excellent.
Interesting that Sarah Burns also just posted a video about runny gouache and mentioned that some of the cobalts in particular had a lot of separation. You pros might like to get together to compare.
Lower tinting strength paints tend to have that more 'gloopy' thicker quality, like the cobalts and Terra vertes (or green earth,) potter's pink etc. That's not just windsor and newton it's any brand that you get those types of colors from. It has to do i think with the amount of binder that they have to use for those particular paints, though windsor and newtons tube paints are pretty known for not being formulated with rewtting from a pan very well. Other brands do better with drying down, I've seen some reviews of windsor and newtons tube paints that dont reconstitute at all after drying, but as I said before there are certain paints no matter the brand, that will have that higher binder ratio and it tends to be those that are weaker in tinting strenghth.
Thank you! Yes, after this video I had a good play with my low tinting strength paints from other brands. Though there is some of the same gloopiness/milkiness with other brands, the W&N ones were still the worst for streakiness, whilst I could still get clean washes from other brands. Almost all my W&N paints were bought as pans too.
I dont have helpful answers but I’ve noticed this too. But also with some other brands too. Like Ive never come across a cobalt violet that doesn’t have that gumminess.
Thanks - I think this is what I'm trying to work out - it seems this happens with certain colours, but I don't know if it's always the same colours across different brands, and if W&N are better or worse for this.
I know exactly what you mean about the gel quality, with W&N Terre verte being the worst. But the color is so nice and soft so I'll persist with it... On another note, to perhaps replace your UM Ash for greyish skies, you might like Holbeins Grey of Grey, it's essentially a black and white pigment but so beautiful for moody skies.
Yes, I think Terre Verte isn't great in that regard across most brands, but it's a lovely one! I have Holbein Grey of Grey, and it's lovely too - I've never tried it for skies though, so thank you for the suggestion!
This happens with some pigments; cobalt violet and other cobalts, Terre vert, potters pink, and some others, in both pan and tube form. It’s something to do with the pigment, and it happens in other brands as well. I know the terre vert pigment is in the ultramarine ash and I think it’s in the grey, as well. It’s not just a W&N thing. It’s all about the pigment. I know W&N recommends not putting tube paints in the pan, but I’ve never had a problem with this. I don’t notice a difference between the dried tube paint and the pan form.
Thank you, yes. It's the low tinting strength ones. I did further experimenting after this video though, and though others (like Roman Szmal Green Earth) had some of the milky gel-like quality, I could still get a smooth wash with them. Some of the W&N ones were just more streaky.
I was watching another video this morning and they mentioned optical enhancers that are added to paints and can cause sluggish movement and a thicker feeling. I wonder if it could be that?
I’m wondering if it’s the gum Arabic binder that they have mixed in with the pigments on those colors. I don’t have a lot of Professional Winsor & Newton colors. Just the Phthalo Turquoise & Naples Yellow. Those are not too goopy with mine. I do love 💕 all those colors though that you have.
Yes, I'm starting to think it might be, and that perhaps W&N use more in their recipe than other brands. (Pure speculation though!!) I did wonder if more Gum Arabic is required for lower tinting strength pigments, but the internet says that's not the case, so perhaps it's just that the Gum Arabic is more noticeable because of the lower tinting strength. Phthalo Turquoise and Naples Yellow are both pretty strong paints (or the ones I have are), so you'd probably expect it less with those.
Morning Helen, I started off with W and N but after purchasing small sets of a lot of brands my Favourite are Sennelier and QOR . I so dislike the gum Arabic that so many brands use, it is a glue and that's why u r getting that gummy milky and streaky results....horrid in my opinion. Watercolours should flow and not stay put. Gum Arabic is what is mostly used on our bristles of a new paint brush to guard the hairs/fibres through travel etc....its a glue and that's what its good for.....all my opinions of course. Love the discussions u bring us Helen and we all love what we love and find works with us so there is no wrong or right...just fab seeing my fellow subscriber's opinion's x love Alli XXX
Yes, I definitely lean towards a love of free flowing watercolours too! You are right - it's good to know the differences in watercolours so that we can gravitate towards what works best for us individually. I really love my Senneliers and quite a few QoRs, though I find them a bit 'pushy' sometimes.
I don’t have many W&N, they’re not as easy for me to get locally. I have a set of 24 half pans (professional) and have barely used them because I didn’t think they rewet easily. However, I’ve been thinking I should get them out and try them again, to see if I haven’t used them enough and maybe they’ll rewet better as I use them more? I don’t think I’ve used them enough to notice a gel and maybe that’s only with tubes?
It's interesting to note which paints we're drawn to, when we're lucky enough to have quite a few options. I agree, many of the W&N seem harder to rewet, but I thought that might have just been my colour choices. Most of mine are not from tubes, so I don't think it's that.
my only w/n w/c paint is an ancient cotman travel palette ii love...only the cobalt blue seems faded....been debating on a new version....not ready for pro tubes yet, but drooling is next best... ii wonder if yours are perhaps made with more traditional honey binder, as they sound similar to how my kuretake gansai tambi paints feel... yr splodges always capture the feel of the place so don't denigrate simple spreads.... we think yr way better than you realize...
I think you might enjoy a pro tube! I'd recommend a little 5ml Daniel Smith any day!! I double checked, but W&N don't use honey. I definitely don't have this problem with my honey paints either (Senneliers and M. Graham).
I wonder if some gum arabic will help with that gumminess? 🤔 Maybe you can try putting some gum arabic in the mixing water, see if that changes anything.
Thank you for your suggestion, though as has been said, I suspect Gum Arabic might make it worse. Ox Gall or synthetic Ox Gal might possibly help, as that increases flow.
I can totally see the difference with the gel - like quality: it seems like they don't want to flow, and as you said, the lines are staying. That's weird!
Yeh I really don’t like W&N professional paints. Partly because for years I thought the Cotman range was the artists range (I was at school so many moons ago!). But even when I tried the pro range they are pants. They rewet oddly and the pay off it not as rich as other makers like Daniel smith. Plus I read years ago that their tubes and pans are made from different recipes, even when they are the same pigment! Whatever binders etc in the ready poured pans make them harder to rewet. I think that was when I gave them up for good and jumped ship to Daniel Smith. Never looked back.
Interesting!! If I HAD to stick to just one brand, it would definitely be Daniel Smith, but my ideal palette would include paints from across loads of brands.
I don't believe that this is a brand issue and I am not sure what causes it. . I've occasionally noticed this with certain tube pigments from all brands-for example, Maimeri Blue's green gold (which I love) and raw umber and some of their other earth colors are noticeably gelatinous, as is Tierra Verde from many brands. Yet the Maimeri Blue paints re-wet instantly (although maybe a tad more slowly than other colors). All brands do produce some low tinting hues. I have used W+N pans for years and have not noticed this issue, but I don't buy greys or many convenience colors like U/M Ash. Just observations, no answers!
Thanks! I know that lots are colours across all brands have low tinting strength, but it was more the gloopiness I was wondering about. After this video I swatched out quite a few low tinting strength paints from different brands - Green Earths etc, but none were quite as streaky/milky at the Winsor & Newtons.
The issue with these watercolours reminds me of the new Schmincke natural watercolour range that they brought out I’ve seen them swatch out and they look terrible. You can see the lines in them and a gel like consistency. They don’t really move look or even feel like normal water colours but tickly of their Calebra. I think there’s definitely something wrong with the consistency that they gonna need to work out.
I don't like that streaking effect that some paints do. One way that might help is using ox gall liquid, but not good if you're a vegetarian or vegan. It does smooth the paint out better.
I’ve heard about the gel-like quality in their burnt sienna, but I never new it was in most of their paints. I haven’t used W&N, so I can’t comment. I only have their Madder Brown PR179, which is a horrible colour so I don’t use it.
Funnily enough, the Burnt Sienna was one of the least like that, and I really like it! I suppose I was just curious, because I know some people really like Winsor & Newton Watercolours, so I wondered if it's a personal preference thing and that they like that particular quality. I need to go take a look at the Madder Brown now!!
I think I misunderstood what you mean by jel-like. Other people have described the burnt sienna as gloopy, but did not mention any glue-like consistency.
It would seem that the paints that are harder to rewet have had something added to them. I know that Lindsay the Frugal crafter says to add a drop of glycerin to them when you pour a pan to make them easier to rewet so maybe W&N does this too. I’ve felt what .I think you are talking about in other brands of the same pigment ie Potters Pink, and I find it unpleasant.
Oh interesting! I've not come across glycerin as an addition, so will read up on it! It does happen with some of my other brand low tinting watercolours, but not to the same extent as some of the W&N ones.
Yes, I have noticed this as well. Windsor and Newton seem to be a brand that is hard to wet once dried in the pan. And I believe their earth colors and heavier pigments have more of this gloopy consistency, possibly to compensate for them being even harder to re wet.
Winsor & Newton doesn't recommend putting tube colours in pans, but people insist on panning them anyway and then moan about the performance. This baffles me.
That's so interesting! I have literally never heard this recommendation before!! As I said in the video though, all but two of them were bought as pans from Winsor & Newton, and only one of the tube paints had the gel consistency a little bit, so I don't think it's that!
This is useful to know. I never saw this recommendation, really. I don't own any W&N yet, but your comment tilts the balance towards pans if I get some.
I don't use Winsor and Newton Professional paints because they're too expensive here, so I can't comment on their paint myself. I don't like that streaky look you're getting there though. It would irritate me if my brush strokes showed like that. I guess expensive doesn't mean better in this case.
I spent some time after the video experimenting with different low tinting paints from various brands. Some of the others show the milkiness too, but none streaked as badly as some of the W&N ones though.
Very interesting Helen. I have noticed this in a few of my watercolours, but I don't have any W&N due to the oxgall in them. So the comment from @agentxp0749 about the heaviness of pigments has started the cogs turning. I will through some of mine and see which I find like this. I was hoping the two new ones were oxgall free, but I can't find that info so far.
I don't know much about ox-gall I'm afraid, though I have debated getting some of the Qor synthetic version. I think the issue at hand affects the low tinting strength watercolours - it would be interesting to see if low tinting strength correlates to heaviness of pigments?
@@helencryer So I looked at my paints and I have one QOR that I love that is very low tinting, Ardoise Grey, and it has a bit of that gel like quality you are experiencing IMHO. I use it a lot as it sort of covers the white barely, but then I can darken later if I need to. It will have that surfactant that QOR put in, so that may be something else to take into account. This Grey has PBk19 as it's only pigment.
I've just woken up this morning to lots of great comments - I'll reply individually, but just wanted to say that you are the best! Thank you for being generous with your knowledge and taking the time to share it! Short of owning every single paint by every single company, I'm always going to be curious about this kind of stuff!
Winsor and Newton Professional are my favourite brand overall if I had to pick one. Their colours are the most transparent and clearest of any brand I’ve used so far. The gel like quality you described seems to be generally more the case with low tinting strength and earth colours, and I’ve come across this gel or gummy consistency in a couple of Daniel Smith earth colours too. I think there may be more binder in colours that use heavier pigments. I particularly love a lot of Daniel Smith colours, but painting side by side, in my experience, I feel like the mainstream WN colours are a bit more transparent. Given that I love both brands, it depends which vibe I’m going for in a painting.
Winsor Yellow, Transparent Yellow, Sap green, Perylene Green, Olive Green, Manganese Blue, French Ultramarine, Phathlo Turquoise, Paynes Grey, Quin Magenta, Perm Rose, Winsor Red, Raw Umber, Sepia, Burnt Sienna, Winsor Violet, Transparent Orange and Indanthrene Blue are some of the WN colours I use the most. Out of these, only the Raw Umber can be a little gummy at times.
The WN Quin Magenta is by far my favourite out of any brand; it’s such a bright and beautiful PR122. Their Winsor Violet, like the DS version of PV23, has a drying shift, but the WN version dries a bit more vibrant.The WN Indanthrene Blue is a green leaning version as opposed to the DS red leaning, and is an excellent dark blue. These two PB60s are so different, it's worth having both. The WN is similar to Prussian Blue, but more lightfast, and mixes lovely greens.
Sorry for the essay, I could talk about paints all day. Thanks for the videos! :)
Also I LOVE your splodge and scribble paintings, and the one you did here is great, I don't think it needed the lines in this case, it's beautifully loose and expressive, capturing the feel of the subject so nicely! :)
keep sharing!!!
I love the Winsor and Newton Quinacridone Magenta too. One of my most used color. And I love their perylene Green. Just such a mood. And the Olive Green is maybe the only green I just use as it is without mixing another color into it. (Well, and sometimes the perylene Green as well, but that‘s technically black, so…)
I love the colors you listed, a very nice palette!
I love them because the paint looks clean and pure compared to some other brands.
Thank you so much for such a lovely detailed reply!! I really appreciate it! Because I don't have lots of these more common colours from W&N, this is useful to know.
That makes sense that the gel quality comes with the lower tinting strength pigments. I just hadn't noticed it quite so much with my lower tinting paints from other companies.
I'm curious what you think about Sennelier paints? I think some of theirs have wonderful transparency too.
@@agentxp0749 Love your enthusiasm! Thanks for discussing your paints 🙂.
I've noticed that the gel-like paints that I've run into are also a low pigment-to-binder ratio; so you simply can't use them like the other colors, because essentially you are gathering up a higher load of binder, whilest trying to get more color payoff. It might be best to think of those specific colors as being more of a "glazing paint/color" - and use them that way, since if you use them that way they will disperse better and the gel quality should virtually disappear. So if they start to feel gel-like while using them, you are using too much paint and not enough water, essentially... which will always produce a very light application of color.
Thank you - that's a really good suggestion - I just need to view them differently and change my expectations!
The thing I'd add though, is that after this video, I experimented with more low tinting strength watercolours from various brands, and though not strong, I could still achieve relatively smooth washes with them, though I couldn't from some of the W&N ones.
Hi Helen … Gum Arabic is essentially glue. I’m guessing some pigments are more difficult to bind and therefore have more gum Arabic in the formulation. I’ve also noticed with those kinds of pigments, the formulation for the pans vs tubes is very different. For example, Cobalt Violet is. Notorious for being difficult to rewet and that’s why I use the pan version from W&N. It doesn’t have the gum Arabic/glue issue and resets beautifully. ( Same with Rose Dore)
Thank you, what you say about Gum Arabic that makes a lot of sense!
All of these except two were bought as pans versions though - the Cobalt Violet and Rose Doré were pans (and my two from tubes were OK).
@@helencryer Essentially, oil, gum arabic and acrylic emulsions are just glues that help the dry pigment adhere to whatever surface you are painting on. They might have other properties, such as opacity or gloss. But essentially, they are adhesives, hence the name binder. The binder binds the dry pigment to the surface..
Mousehole is where my mum used to live! Born in St.Blazey. So, I like even more your bright sketch & lovely short visit there. Thanks
It's a very special place! How lovely!
I can't comment about W&N but I know EXACTLY what you mean. In my Turner Artist's 18 tube set, the Maya yellow, Maya red and Maya blue all feel like they have a clear gel base and are not very saturated. They are very streaky and remind me of childrens' finger paint. The other colors in the set are top quality and very pigmented and for the price make an excellent intro to professional grade watercolors, but they could just as easily leave the Maya colors out. Interesting video. Thanks
I've not tried Turners, but another person said they had noticed it with their Turners too. Good to know, thanks!
Well that was fun. Don't have many Winsor & Newton paints I must say, probably only a dozen all up and all in tubes. Totally see what you mean about those certain paints. You can immediately tell when you lay them down, lots of little bubbles and a visible brush mark. As far as a mixing palette, I think it was a fabulous palette of colours. I love the mix on the top left. We're debating front door colours for the house at the moment and that one would be spectacular 😁
Yes! I know what you mean about little bubbles too!
Oh my days... the fun of choosing a front door colour!!!! Keep me posted!!!!
I have most of these colours from W&N professional range. Some tubes some pans. I have the new Ultramarine Ash for the same reason you bought it! I only have the goopy gel effect when I paint on cheap and hotpress paper. With less tinting colours, I embrace that, rather than try to get so much pigment I'm almost expecting the darkness of prussian blue. I know they are watercolours, but sometimes the ratio water to paint isn't quite right on cheap paper or card. I'll add a medium if I'm not getting a good balance - or swap paper or build up layers rather than achieve the desired colour in one go.
I think Ultramarine Ash is a lot like the cotman metallic blue but without mica glitter. I added potters pink and shimmer medium to my Cotman shimmer set. It works well to widen the colour range. I also added a dark blue and shimmer and a Quinacridone Violet and shimmer. I'm still exploring those paints.
You make a good point about the paper. Perhaps these paints would work best in a different paper?
Yes, you're definitely right about not expecting the same thing from low tinting strength watercolours as high tinting ones.
I will definitely have a play on different papers, thank you. My only comment though would be that even on the same paper as used in the video, low tinting strength paints from other brands fared much better and still didn't streak.
I just had to test my W&N paints quickly after seeing this. I did start with W&N, as my local art store was selling them for a reduced price as they stopped selling W&N products. So I do have a little soft spit for them as my first exploration into watercolor.
I definitely get the gel like thing with Terre Verte, I love the color, but always disliked the texture of the paint. I as well did see it in the Rose doré and a little bit in the permanent rose. The gel milk like thing I noticed in the Potters Pink, Cobalt Violet and Permanent Mauve. And the PY150 colors are a bit gel like as well. In some of them it is more manageable in a painting, but the Terre Verte is a pain to work with. Comparing some of them, I have not had the problem with the PV19 in Van Gogh and Daniel Smith. The PY150/PO48 Gamboge from Rembrandt did have the gel like texture as well, but seems more manageable to work around it. PV15 (Rembrandt) and PV16 (Schmincke) seem to have the milky gel problem a little bit, but as well, with a little work, it isn’t as streaky as the W&N once. So I do see it in other brands as well, but maybe a little less. But then, my collection of W&N colors is bigger than the others, so a bit difficult to compare brands. I haven’t noticed it with my Daniel Smith and my Isaro watercolors. With the Schmincke I do see it in some of the paints, Rembrandt/van Gogh as well in some of them. I think your assumption about it being seen more in harder to rewet colors is very accurate. As I definitely don’t see it in all the W&N colors.
Sorry, very long comment and probably not much help at all.
Interesting experiments : )
Have a wonderful weekend, Mirjam
And as some are saying it is a pan vs tube issue, I have all the colors I tested in pans, not tube, not dried from tubes, but bought in pans. And I still have the same issue as you have. Especially with the Terre Verte and Rose doré.
Thanks ever so much for your detailed comment & I'm genuinely grateful to you for giving it thought, and it helps build up a picture of what different watercolours are like!
I think I'm coming to the conclusion that 1) it's all low tinting colours to some extent, possibly because more binder is required for those pigments, and 2) Even among lower tinting watercolours from other brands, the W&N ones seem a bit more streaky. (For example, after this video I was playing with different Green Earths from other brands, and though they had the same milkiness, they still didn't dry in the streaky way as the W&N ones.)
Yes, I have the same feeling, the other brands are a bit more workable. And the streakyness can be “painted out”. I just love to compare and test. Thank you so much for an interesting and thought provoking video. I had a blast. And my desk was a big mess after I did get all of my palettes out and tried so many colors. So much fun. I love that kind of playing.
Awww, I really appreciate it, thank you! But yes - wonderful fun!
I have noticed that on some of my paints, but they aren’t professional quality yet. That’s why I watch these to get some idea on the various colors and quality. I love you seem to personally know all your paints. I think that’s one of the reasons I enjoy your content.
Thank you!! I learn so much from RUclips, and it's partly why I started Youtubing - to try and add to that body of information!
Hi Helen! Very useful, thank you ❤ I love your little painting it reminds me of the travel scarves of the ‘50s & ‘60s. Lovely.
I’ve never used W&N, really. Only because I landed on other pro brands and just stayed with them. I’m very curious about them so this was helpful . Thanks again!
Thanks ever so much!
Yes, I already loved Daniel Smiths and Senneliers before I even tried a W&N, which is why I have fewer of the regular W&N colours.
I love Mousehole! Lovely little place. If I left the South East I would move to Cornwall - the water is so lovely.
Winsor & Newton watercolors are my favourite, though I mostly use Cotman rather than professional ☺☺
Have you tried many other brands to compare them to?
I've had that streaking in my WN rose dore too, also cad scarlet and an ancient cobalt green. All 4 of my watercolor sticks from them are the same... those may have been discontinued. I'm haven't bought too many WN because I found them unreliable and they're not especially inexpensive here. I have those colors in other brands without any issues, and have run across that same goopy texture in a set of Schmincke H...especially cobalt azure, fr. Ultramarine and potters pink. Same thing with several Turner Artist... viridian, maya yellow and red, cobalt violet and turquoise blue. I've always assumed it was an imbalance with some of the harder-to-rewet pigments in some brands. They work better with lots of water, but can't get near mass tone.
Thank you, that's really interesting. It definitely seems to be the less strongly tinting paints. I have one Schmincke like that, but not many from other brands. I've not tried Turners though.
I definitely have the same experience with Cobalt Violet W&N in both pan and tube, but my Opera pink is almost gouachey , it’s so creamy!😊
Thanks!
You kept mentioning the gel-like quality of the paints, made me think it was like painting with jello that had not yet set. Seeing the comments has been impressive, so many have mentioned how paint tubes vs paint pans are different, re-wetting difficulties, really interesting to see perspective from others. Really interesting video!!
I probably didn't describe it very well!! Maybe a slightly milky gloopiness would have been better?!
Hi Helen-I enjoy your work so very much and appreciate all the reviews and swatching and plein air painting you provide for us.
My painting instructor always said there is no substitute for Arches watercolor paper, cold press. 😊 I do some swatching on less expensive paper and some practice, but mostly it’s Arches for me. She said you don’t have to buy the best brushes, or even the best paints, but don’t skimp on watercolor paper.
I have never enjoyed Winsor & Newton paints personally. My favorite brands are Schmincke, M Graham, and Sennelier.
I realize these choices are not for everyone, but thought I would add my two cents.
Thanks again for all you do!
Thank you so much for your input!
I really like Sennelier, and have lots of Schmincke and one M. Graham, which I enjoy.
I have some Arches CP paper, but find it too rough to really enjoy. I also really love granulating paints, and it doesn't show them off at their best. I know it's great for glazes though, and layered work. Personally I found a better brush made the most difference (one that could actually hold water!), but I've still not been doing watercolours for that long, so my opinions might change as I (hopefully) develop!
It’s lovely you write out replies to all of us. Thank you for taking the time. I’m a beginner, too, and your channel has helped me in so many ways. You have a wonderful natural gift and I’m so impressed with how you develop it. Everything you paint is fascinating and imaginative.
I enjoy learning about all your choices for art supplies (I’ve purchased many of your suggestions) and your thinking behind the work.
I agree, a good brush is important, and I am going to try smoother paper to see what kinds of results I can achieve.
Lastly, I could listen to your soothing voice all day long. Thanks again for all the time you devote to your channel. It is so enjoyable, and every time I open RUclips the first thing I look for is a video from you!
That is all so kind - thank you!! I wish you well in your exciting art journey ahead of you!
80% of my watercolours are Windsor and Newton, but the only one I’ve noticed to be ‘gloopy’ is the Potter’s Pink, which is why I don’t use it very much!
That's interesting, thanks!
Interesting discussion. I would say the heavier pigments, grainier pigments and pigments with a tendency to clump together will need more binder. Just as a heavier piece of paper needs more glue to stick it to anything. The manufacturer has to play safe and produce a product that works across the board. If you were binding your own v14 (for instance) you could work your own ratio… which might be min binder/max pigment. Big Manufacturer also wants to make profit and lots of these heavy pigments (like v14) are expensive, so they go minimum pigment they can get away with, + more binder. Good way to test that gloopy look… i took a w+n that isn’t gloopy out of the box (v19 for instance) and added some extra gum Arabic (or Aquapasto)(or glycerine). Thanks for kicking this topic off ))
Thanks ever so much for your insights! Really interesting!
Hi Helen, I think the person to ask will be Lindsay the Frugal Crafter since she has been working with Windsor and Newton Pro and student grade lines in the mid 90s. I will say this once Lindsay mention that the Windsor and Newton Cotman were being made in China and that the Pro line some paints were also coming from China. She was wondering if they change the formulation on the Pro line because for the Cotman they did change the formulation once it came from China. It use to be all made in France. I have no issues with the pro line of Windsor and Newton, I have some half pans and tubes that I bought from Jacksons art a few years ago. I recently just bought 6 tubes have the new granulators and have no issues. Last year many US stores got rid of Windsor and Newton so I bought like 6 tubes and many are older but have not found any issues. So it you might want to check where your tubes were made. On a brighter note, since now you are more experience with paints it could also be a change of brands since it looks like you prefer more transparent paints. Maria
That's interesting, thank you!
I'm just wondering if W&M use more Fun Arabic than some other brands, and that this is more obvious in the lower tinting colours.
I definitely do like my easy to re-wet, fast flowing, transparent colours!
I don't believe there is anything wrong with these particular WN paint consistencies. If you take DS Green Apatite Genuine, it is extremely "gelatinous" out of the tube and cracks terribly in the pan. The binder always splits from the pigment which has me convinced it's the character of the pigment that needs a higher viscosity binder to keep it evenly suspended. Enjoy your paints, you have a lovely collection.💛
Thanks! I'm not suggesting there is something 'wrong' with the paints, just curious about whether this effect is more noticeable with W&N watercolours. In my experience so far (I did experimenting after this video) lots of lower tinting strength paints of different brands have some of the milky, gel consistency to them, but some of the W&N paints lay down more streakily than other brands.
My Green Apatite Genuine (from tube into pan) rewets fine, and has quite nice flow to it, without any of the streakiness I'm talking about.
Your explanation of the ‘gel’ being slow flowing looks quite accurate - I had noticed it with the Rose Dore by comparison to the lemon and orange. Hmm… it would be interesting to know whether there’s an additive in those. As you’re mixing them in the pans it’s extremely evident of the milkiness - almost like gouache - less transparent. 👍🐨
I'm wondering if it's the Gum Arabic, which is then more noticeable in low tinting strength colours. I don't know if W&N use more than other companies though, because to me it seems more noticeable with their brand.
My W&N box needed a bit of a clean up so I thought I would take a look at the gloopiness thing, and I have two colours that definitely do this. Potters Pink and Terre Verte. Both are quite granular pigments, and not highly pigmented. Others have said they have noticed this effect in other brands too. I was not sure what paper you were using, I used a CassArt cup cycle notebook I always use for swatching as it takes paint pretty well. It’s not madly absorbent though. So here is my theory, that the paints that do this have larger pigments and therefore need a different ratio of gum Arabic to other colours. This is both to bind them and hold them in suspension so they do not sink in the pans. This may also be why some manufacturers prefer extruded pans over poured ones which surely must be more labour intensive. I noticed that the finer colours I have mostly went on with no gloominess but may have had more oxgall as they went on smoother and more evenly, one such was Prussian blue which I know is an absolute pain to handmull because it is so fluffy and fine. There’s a great deal of difference in the way pigments handle, better manufacturers allow each one to shine in its own way, but do try and find a balance in making them as uniform to use as is practical. An example of how some colours in other ranges sometimes are gloopy is the DS primateks, but not all of them…. I do not mind quirkiness in the way things handle, it is whether it irritates you or not. I absolutely love Sennelier, but when I first open my palette find they want to suck my brush dry, they really like moisture, to the point they feel sticky, maybe because of the honey, though RS paints seem not to do that! I found the W&N revival neutrals to dry down far more intensely than I expected and lost the delicacy they had in the tubes. Now I know they dry that way I will use them sparingly and dilute them accordingly. I actually really love them! I had no red other than sienna in the set I put them in, but managed to make a passable and interesting red by overlaying the Tyrian purple onto the orange, and think using a textural approach could get something very vibrant. Apologies! I have deviated from the gloopiness issue…. Renewing my acquaintance with W&N has reminded me just why they are so well regarded…..
PS have you tried the Schmincke Opera Rose?
Thanks so much for all your thoughts on this - it's really interesting!! I totally agree that we should accept the differing qualities of different paints, and play to their strengths. I was just curious about W&N being more streaky than other comparable colours, really. I have quite a few Primateks, and they definitely have their individual peculiarities, but even so, none seem to be as streaky.
Hi Hellen! If you can read another opinion.... :D Because I am from germany, my go to brand has always been Schmincke. But through other artists and videos I was curious to try other brands too and Winsor and Newton was the easiest to get. I bought a few colours over time, but was disappointed almost every time. The worst buy was Davy's Grey. I just cant get it from pan onto paper. Also Rose Doré is .. I don't know. I never use it. The Opera Pink can't compete against the one from Schmincke. :) The one I like: Aquagreen. :D
Thanks ever so much - it's very interesting to hear from others!
I only have Davy's Grey by Holbein, and it resets beautifully - a really nice paint.
I’ve noticed it with the more gentle colors- in multiple brands. Cobalt violet, green earth, some cerulean blues.
Yes I think that's true, I haven't found my other brands to be as streaky though.
Hello Helen, some shades are annoyingly gel like as Terre vert and potters pink from WN and Verone gold ochre from DS. I have tubes dried in pans no issues with most of the colors I own.
Yes, thanks! I was wondering if W&N paints seems to be worse offenders than the other brands' low tinting strength paints though. For example, after the video I was playing around with some, and Roman Szmal's Green Earth definitely had some of the milky gel-like property, but I could still get a smooth wash with it, but I couldn't with some of the W&N ones.
I think I know what you mean, like a gummy effect. I wonder if it’s the binder they use 🧐 fab video as always x
Thanks! It seems that way, and maybe more is used with certain pigments.
Very interesting! Thank you
Thanks!
I’m guessing the slightly gel-like quality I too have found in some of Winsor & Newton pans is due to the fact that they are all colours that are typically hard to re-wet pigments and so they add a little more glycerin to those particular pan colours. I’m just guessing though.
This is a good point. I had forgotten about glycerine.
Thank you for the suggestion - I will read up more on glycerin - I don't really know much about its addition to watercolours.
I was JUST about to swatch my new Revival tubes when i saw this video. I've found this gluey consistency/quality you mention over several brands and not exclusively to W&N. As you mentioned, it's usually in low tinting/hard to re-wet pigments, mostly PG23 and PV14. Schmincke's Green Earth PG23 shares this for me (my first watercolor tube disappointment) and also their Volcano Yellow PY159, as well as Rembrandt tube of Cobalt Violet PV14 that i was recommended to buy the pan form of that pigment in their line! Old Holland has a few watercolor in their line that also produce this quality and one tube I have issue from Daniel Smith is Verona Gold Ochre. Love Winsor & Newton professional range watercolors and and their vibrancy. Just purchased 7 more 14ml tubes. I've purchased half pans and tubes and have no preference. Not sure if the new revival half pans of Ultramarine Ash and Mineral Grey would re-wet easier than directly from the tube or dried tube paint.
Thanks for your input on other paint too!
I have noticed it too, with other low tinting watercolours from other brands, but my W&N ones are the worst for streaking.
My revival paints were bought as half pans.
I've recently bought my first Daniel Smith watercolour. It's Cobalt Violet and it has the same texture that you're talking about, the gluey gel like consistency. It also has a very low tinting strength. I was really disappointed and hope that not all the Daniel Smith watercolours are like this? Thanks Helen for an interesting video.😊
No, I think Cobalt Violets are all very low tinting strength, though I haven't tried Daniel Smith's one specifically. In general I love Daniel Smith watercolours, and if I could only pick one brand forever this would be it. My ideal palette would be a mixture of quite a few brands, but many would be from DS. Please don't give up on them!!!
I haven't had any problems with W&N but I only have a couple of tubes. They are very expensive in Australia and there are other brands I prefer. PY 3 is my preferred lemon but it isn't as lightfast as Winsor Lemon.
I'm not sure I'd go so far as to call it a problem - more a personal preference thing, that I was curious about. Yes, that's true about the Lightfastness.
I only have on color from Winsor&Newton and it's the rose dore, but mine doesn't have a gel-like consistency. I love it because it's quite transparent and flows very nicely and i use it a lot in portraits.
Thank you! It's a gorgeous colour, but for me this is one of the ones that does it the most, so I don't end up using it much! Is yours from a tube?
@helencryer Yes mine is from a tube - could that make a difference?
Hello Helen, that is so funny. I just swatched my watercolors (again 😊) last week and found some of the pigments had that same quality, which I never noticed before. But since I noticed this with different brands, I can only attribute it to the pigments, as some of the comments have already stated. It is mostly the pigments that have a low tinting strength and more on the brands that use gum arabica. However none of them had it as much as the paints you were showing. With my Qor and M.Graham paints, I noticed it only with PV14 but not with the Cerulean or other Cobalts. 😊😊 In the end I always go back to my Qor paints for their clarity.
Yes, I think that's the conclusion I'm drawing - the Gum Arabic is more noticeable across many brands with the low tinting strength paints, however the worst of the streaking seems to be with my W&N's.
Have you tried Sennelier at all? I think they also have lovely clarity.
@@helencryer I have not tried them, but I’m shying a bit away from honey. I have bought some M.Grahams when I was in the US last year and even though I like them, the paint that was poured into pans, started to smell pretty bad, once my art room started to heat up because of summer. But I can see how the honey is helping to give the pigment clarity. The Viridian from M.Graham is absolutely gorgeous. 😊
Ah yes, I guess there are some upsides to not having hot summers!!
@@helencryer 👍😅
Ive been using windsor and newton professional watercolours for a while now, ive not noticed it too much personally, i found the daler rowney aquafine to be more gloopy. I wonder if its the more opaque pigments, Or maybe the granulating pigments that are the gloopy ones?
Thank you! I haven't tried the Aquafines at all, so that's interesting to hear. I don't think it was especially the case for the opaque ones - the Caput Mortuum was probably one of the least like that, but from other brands especially, I've virtually never come across this quality (I think just one Schmincke Supergranulating paint out of about 20 I have does it.)
I think Aquafine are Daler-Rowney’s student colours, their professional range are called Artist’s watercolours. I have a set of the latter, they are really very little different to W&N professional that also used to be called Artists Casstill they had a rebrand. The D-R artists are made in the U.K. I think maybe CassArt has a collab with them, their tiny 1/4 pan palette is most certainly from the same stable, and excellent.
Interesting that Sarah Burns also just posted a video about runny gouache and mentioned that some of the cobalts in particular had a lot of separation. You pros might like to get together to compare.
I don't know if separation is a different issue, but that sounds interesting anyway, thanks! I am definitely not a pro by a long shot though!
Lower tinting strength paints tend to have that more 'gloopy' thicker quality, like the cobalts and Terra vertes (or green earth,) potter's pink etc. That's not just windsor and newton it's any brand that you get those types of colors from. It has to do i think with the amount of binder that they have to use for those particular paints, though windsor and newtons tube paints are pretty known for not being formulated with rewtting from a pan very well. Other brands do better with drying down, I've seen some reviews of windsor and newtons tube paints that dont reconstitute at all after drying, but as I said before there are certain paints no matter the brand, that will have that higher binder ratio and it tends to be those that are weaker in tinting strenghth.
Thank you!
Yes, after this video I had a good play with my low tinting strength paints from other brands. Though there is some of the same gloopiness/milkiness with other brands, the W&N ones were still the worst for streakiness, whilst I could still get clean washes from other brands. Almost all my W&N paints were bought as pans too.
I dont have helpful answers but I’ve noticed this too. But also with some other brands too. Like Ive never come across a cobalt violet that doesn’t have that gumminess.
Thanks - I think this is what I'm trying to work out - it seems this happens with certain colours, but I don't know if it's always the same colours across different brands, and if W&N are better or worse for this.
I know exactly what you mean about the gel quality, with W&N Terre verte being the worst. But the color is so nice and soft so I'll persist with it... On another note, to perhaps replace your UM Ash for greyish skies, you might like Holbeins Grey of Grey, it's essentially a black and white pigment but so beautiful for moody skies.
Yes, I think Terre Verte isn't great in that regard across most brands, but it's a lovely one! I have Holbein Grey of Grey, and it's lovely too - I've never tried it for skies though, so thank you for the suggestion!
This happens with some pigments; cobalt violet and other cobalts, Terre vert, potters pink, and some others, in both pan and tube form. It’s something to do with the pigment, and it happens in other brands as well. I know the terre vert pigment is in the ultramarine ash and I think it’s in the grey, as well. It’s not just a W&N thing. It’s all about the pigment.
I know W&N recommends not putting tube paints in the pan, but I’ve never had a problem with this. I don’t notice a difference between the dried tube paint and the pan form.
Thank you, yes. It's the low tinting strength ones. I did further experimenting after this video though, and though others (like Roman Szmal Green Earth) had some of the milky gel-like quality, I could still get a smooth wash with them. Some of the W&N ones were just more streaky.
I was watching another video this morning and they mentioned optical enhancers that are added to paints and can cause sluggish movement and a thicker feeling. I wonder if it could be that?
Oh, I haven't heard of those at all! Thanks!
I’m wondering if it’s the gum Arabic binder that they have mixed in with the pigments on those colors. I don’t have a lot of Professional Winsor & Newton colors. Just the Phthalo Turquoise & Naples Yellow. Those are not too goopy with mine. I do love 💕 all those colors though that you have.
Yes, I'm starting to think it might be, and that perhaps W&N use more in their recipe than other brands. (Pure speculation though!!)
I did wonder if more Gum Arabic is required for lower tinting strength pigments, but the internet says that's not the case, so perhaps it's just that the Gum Arabic is more noticeable because of the lower tinting strength. Phthalo Turquoise and Naples Yellow are both pretty strong paints (or the ones I have are), so you'd probably expect it less with those.
Morning Helen, I started off with W and N but after purchasing small sets of a lot of brands my Favourite are Sennelier and QOR . I so dislike the gum Arabic that so many brands use, it is a glue and that's why u r getting that gummy milky and streaky results....horrid in my opinion. Watercolours should flow and not stay put. Gum Arabic is what is mostly used on our bristles of a new paint brush to guard the hairs/fibres through travel etc....its a glue and that's what its good for.....all my opinions of course. Love the discussions u bring us Helen and we all love what we love and find works with us so there is no wrong or right...just fab seeing my fellow subscriber's opinion's x love Alli XXX
Yes, I definitely lean towards a love of free flowing watercolours too! You are right - it's good to know the differences in watercolours so that we can gravitate towards what works best for us individually.
I really love my Senneliers and quite a few QoRs, though I find them a bit 'pushy' sometimes.
@@helencryer lol Dear Helen, yes Pushy is the word for QOR, i love that analogy. Happy bank holiday Monday xxx
I don’t have many W&N, they’re not as easy for me to get locally. I have a set of 24 half pans (professional) and have barely used them because I didn’t think they rewet easily. However, I’ve been thinking I should get them out and try them again, to see if I haven’t used them enough and maybe they’ll rewet better as I use them more? I don’t think I’ve used them enough to notice a gel and maybe that’s only with tubes?
It's interesting to note which paints we're drawn to, when we're lucky enough to have quite a few options. I agree, many of the W&N seem harder to rewet, but I thought that might have just been my colour choices.
Most of mine are not from tubes, so I don't think it's that.
The comments here are SO INTERESTING!!!
I just love that there are so many people happy to go into depth talking about watercolours!!!
my only w/n w/c paint is an ancient cotman travel palette ii love...only the cobalt blue seems faded....been debating on a new version....not ready for pro tubes yet, but drooling is next best... ii wonder if yours are perhaps made with more traditional honey binder, as they sound similar to how my kuretake gansai tambi paints feel... yr splodges always capture the feel of the place so don't denigrate simple spreads.... we think yr way better than you realize...
I think you might enjoy a pro tube! I'd recommend a little 5ml Daniel Smith any day!!
I double checked, but W&N don't use honey. I definitely don't have this problem with my honey paints either (Senneliers and M. Graham).
I wonder if some gum arabic will help with that gumminess? 🤔
Maybe you can try putting some gum arabic in the mixing water, see if that changes anything.
Unfortunately, gum Arabic will make it worse, as it’s a glue.
Thank you for your suggestion, though as has been said, I suspect Gum Arabic might make it worse. Ox Gall or synthetic Ox Gal might possibly help, as that increases flow.
I can totally see the difference with the gel - like quality: it seems like they don't want to flow, and as you said, the lines are staying. That's weird!
Other brands have it a bit too with low tinting strength colours, but I haven't come across any that lay down as streakily.
Yeh I really don’t like W&N professional paints. Partly because for years I thought the Cotman range was the artists range (I was at school so many moons ago!). But even when I tried the pro range they are pants. They rewet oddly and the pay off it not as rich as other makers like Daniel smith. Plus I read years ago that their tubes and pans are made from different recipes, even when they are the same pigment! Whatever binders etc in the ready poured pans make them harder to rewet. I think that was when I gave them up for good and jumped ship to Daniel Smith. Never looked back.
Interesting!! If I HAD to stick to just one brand, it would definitely be Daniel Smith, but my ideal palette would include paints from across loads of brands.
I don't believe that this is a brand issue and I am not sure what causes it. . I've occasionally noticed this with certain tube pigments from all brands-for example, Maimeri Blue's green gold (which I love) and raw umber and some of their other earth colors are noticeably gelatinous, as is Tierra Verde from many brands. Yet the Maimeri Blue paints re-wet instantly (although maybe a tad more slowly than other colors). All brands do produce some low tinting hues. I have used W+N pans for years and have not noticed this issue, but I don't buy greys or many convenience colors like U/M Ash. Just observations, no answers!
Thanks! I know that lots are colours across all brands have low tinting strength, but it was more the gloopiness I was wondering about. After this video I swatched out quite a few low tinting strength paints from different brands - Green Earths etc, but none were quite as streaky/milky at the Winsor & Newtons.
The issue with these watercolours reminds me of the new Schmincke natural watercolour range that they brought out I’ve seen them swatch out and they look terrible. You can see the lines in them and a gel like consistency. They don’t really move look or even feel like normal water colours but tickly of their Calebra. I think there’s definitely something wrong with the consistency that they gonna need to work out.
I saw those and wasn't tempted by them!!
I don't like that streaking effect that some paints do. One way that might help is using ox gall liquid, but not good if you're a vegetarian or vegan. It does smooth the paint out better.
Yes, that's true - I suppose my question is whether Winsor & Newton paints are worse for this than other brands.
@@helencryer It happens with some of my Turners too. Probably the combination of minerals and gum.
I’ve heard about the gel-like quality in their burnt sienna, but I never new it was in most of their paints. I haven’t used W&N, so I can’t comment. I only have their Madder Brown PR179, which is a horrible colour so I don’t use it.
Funnily enough, the Burnt Sienna was one of the least like that, and I really like it!
I suppose I was just curious, because I know some people really like Winsor & Newton Watercolours, so I wondered if it's a personal preference thing and that they like that particular quality.
I need to go take a look at the Madder Brown now!!
I think I misunderstood what you mean by jel-like. Other people have described the burnt sienna as gloopy, but did not mention any glue-like consistency.
@@awatercolouristNo, I think we're all talking about the same thing: gloopy, gel-like, gluey. It's just that my Burnt Sienna isn't like that!
It would seem that the paints that are harder to rewet have had something added to them. I know that Lindsay the Frugal crafter says to add a drop of glycerin to them when you pour a pan to make them easier to rewet so maybe W&N does this too. I’ve felt what .I think you are talking about in other brands of the same pigment ie Potters Pink, and I find it unpleasant.
Oh interesting! I've not come across glycerin as an addition, so will read up on it!
It does happen with some of my other brand low tinting watercolours, but not to the same extent as some of the W&N ones.
Yes, I have noticed this as well. Windsor and Newton seem to be a brand that is hard to wet once dried in the pan. And I believe their earth colors and heavier pigments have more of this gloopy consistency, possibly to compensate for them being even harder to re wet.
Interesting, thanks!
I know other brands' low tinting strength watercolours are this way a bit too, but just less noticeably so than W&N's.
First!
Hi!
@@helencryer Hello! Always glad to be here 😊.
Winsor & Newton doesn't recommend putting tube colours in pans, but people insist on panning them anyway and then moan about the performance. This baffles me.
That's so interesting! I have literally never heard this recommendation before!!
As I said in the video though, all but two of them were bought as pans from Winsor & Newton, and only one of the tube paints had the gel consistency a little bit, so I don't think it's that!
This is useful to know. I never saw this recommendation, really. I don't own any W&N yet, but your comment tilts the balance towards pans if I get some.
I don't use Winsor and Newton Professional paints because they're too expensive here, so I can't comment on their paint myself. I don't like that streaky look you're getting there though. It would irritate me if my brush strokes showed like that. I guess expensive doesn't mean better in this case.
I spent some time after the video experimenting with different low tinting paints from various brands. Some of the others show the milkiness too, but none streaked as badly as some of the W&N ones though.
Very interesting Helen. I have noticed this in a few of my watercolours, but I don't have any W&N due to the oxgall in them. So the comment from
@agentxp0749 about the heaviness of pigments has started the cogs turning. I will through some of mine and see which I find like this. I was hoping the two new ones were oxgall free, but I can't find that info so far.
I don't know much about ox-gall I'm afraid, though I have debated getting some of the Qor synthetic version. I think the issue at hand affects the low tinting strength watercolours - it would be interesting to see if low tinting strength correlates to heaviness of pigments?
@@helencryer So I looked at my paints and I have one QOR that I love that is very low tinting, Ardoise Grey, and it has a bit of that gel like quality you are experiencing IMHO. I use it a lot as it sort of covers the white barely, but then I can darken later if I need to. It will have that surfactant that QOR put in, so that may be something else to take into account. This Grey has PBk19 as it's only pigment.
I haven't seen that one - it sounds nice! I'll take a look!