Vapour Barrier Liners ( VBL ) Part 2: Sleeping bags and foam pads in Alaska's extreme cold. [4K]
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 13 сен 2024
- 01:07 Putting up the tent
03:45 Sleeping pads
10:04 Sleeping bags
11:03 My VBL design
15:23 Overbag
16:12 Sleeping tips
22:04 Morning routine
25:28 Final thoughts
For merch, and to support my videos and help them grow in scope and quality here: www.alexhibber...
Alex's new channel, Arguably: / @arguably-alexhibbert5085
I'm doing two episodes dedicated to a prickly topic amongst cold weather outdoors folks. If you sleep outdoors in the deep cold without the comfort of a hut/cabin/truck for multiple nights, moisture becomes an issue. Frostbite, hypothermia or just general discomfort can result if you ignore the early signs of damp or iced clothing. This is specific to serious cold, and not a viable method for those dealing with freeze/thaw conditions, where rain/sleet complicates things.
In the second episode, I'm covering the use of Vapour / Vapor Barrier Liners for my sleeping bag and general sleeping system, plus a load of tips.
___
Alex's new channel, Arguably: / @arguably-alexhibbert5085
Find out more about Alex's work at:
/ alexhibbert
/ alexhibbert
www.alexhibber...
His books can be bought here:
UK amzn.to/3ncQkRw
US amzn.to/2LkRs86
Canada amzn.to/2JJuwPJ
Signed www.alexhibber...
Thanks to vanguardstorag... for warehousing facilities.
![Vapour Barrier Liners ( VBL ) Part 1: Hands & feet / gloves & socks in Alaska's extreme cold. [4K]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/WpdLsd4fuG8/mqdefault.jpg)
![Vapour Barrier Liners ( VBL ) Part 1: Hands & feet / gloves & socks in Alaska's extreme cold. [4K]](/img/tr.png)
![Second Arctic expedition attempt on Alaska's North Slope in winter. Impossible? [4K]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/qVo4xU5m7Z0/mqdefault.jpg)
I appreciate you taking the time and going through the labor to share your knowledge of the reasons for discipline in this area. Discipline is usually hard won. As the coinventor of the parachute that opens on impact, I’ll count myself lucky to have the opportunity to learn from someone else’s difficulties. I love how you balance the deadly seriousness of what you do with some good natured dark humor. It lets the knowledge sink in without too much pain. I bet this comes in handy while practicing your hobby of teaching university students.
I worked in the 90s in Kotzebue, Alaska. Staying dry was critical.
This was interesting, but at the same time I realize an age-related problem. I have to pee about 3-4 times during a night... Then the tip to avoid contact with the tent wall was great. When I was in the Swedish army, I woke up with my hair frozen to the tent. Thanks for another great video!
Great to hear and see about your cold weather camping/expedition experiences.
My dear Mr. Hibbert, that is invaluable advice regarding sleeping arrangements and VBL. I unequivocally agree with every nuance of what you’ve painstakingly learned. Having been in the US Army Airborne Infantry in the 80’s, with no ride, -30 to -50 temps, and only what could be transported on one’s back - I feel confidently qualified to offer kudos in the methods you’ve generously shared. In some shape or form, my kit was very similar to your own, albeit dated. While easy for some to make light of, your anal retentive qualities WRT sub-arctic sleeping arrangements are very adequately addressed in a straightforward and informative manner, if not amusingly witty. To your readers whom have yet to experience an arctic wilderness where there is NO ONE but you and your teammates to rectify a moments oversight, they’d do well to watch this segment a time or two more. On a 2+ week jaunt in the arctic, pay it forward every moment for that inevitable moment when you or a mate will need and require every last degree of unsullied warmth and energy that your meticulous toil has preserved the potential of use. Having had more than one pair of a buddy’s cold, damp, and unpleasantly odorous feet on my warm belly; Or a fading mate brought back to sanity and life naked with me inside my own meticulously cared for and DRY sleeping bag……….I feel somewhat qualified to comment on this delightful video! As a further testament to the importance of taking care of this aspect of in-use gear maintenance, things would have likely turned out differently for me on one occasion where an unlikely, but ultimately inevitable, chain of events found me sleeping “untented” - which hereby bestow new word status, in a 2 foot deep trench scooped out with a snowshoe. It was a frosty -52 degrees by my thermometer, with a gentle breeze of 30kts. Getting in and out of the arrangement quickly and efficiently was absolutely key, and a learned and practiced skill that was second in importance - only to keeping it moisture free. If you don’t have a large snot-iceberg when you awaken, then you’ve likely not done something right…….and spoiled your bag for the remainder of the outing.
Although I’m awaiting yours and Alan’s future travails, these sorts of content snippets are completely satisfactory, and I approve. Your thoughtfully demonstrated craft has now garnered quite a bit more of my attention. Thank you for the delightful content you provide!
My thanks for your vote of thanks!
Pretty unfair to use terms like anal retentive when we are talking absolutely critical survival techniques.
It's one of those terms that really is less offensive than it first appears. And ex services folks have a high tolerance to such terms...
@@teeanahera8949I find your comment a bit anal 😂
Wow, never heard of using a bag for moisture you learn something new every day
This was exactly the information for which I have been looking for quite some time. I very much appreciate your share of knowledge. A heart felt, thank you!
Cheers!
My new favourite channel!
Cheers and you have good taste.
Excellent video. Thank you for taking your time to go over reasoning and steps for success. Looking forward to more cold weather tips.
dude super cool and knowledgeable! learned a few things! Thanks.
You're welcome
Always interesting to learn this. Greatly explained
Cheers
Thank you for this Alex, there are a lot of good lessons here for dealing with the cold weather in general and having better outdoor experiences.
Cheers!
I'm amazed that you don't get absolutely soaked inside that PTFE-bag during the night. and have to change your base-layer when you wake up.
PE bag - but same difference. No it's ok. Very slight clamminess, unless the sleeping bag is massively too warm for the exterior temp.
Has there been any bad weather occasions where you've had to remain in the tent for days on end? If yes how do you deal with hoarfrost/moisture build up?
A few days, but not many. You can gently wipe the hoarfrost with a cloth, and then wring it out and dry over the stove pan.
Always love your videos so explanatory and informative
Nice competent treatise on the issues. Minimize vapour into the dewpount and max vapour out through the dew point layers.🎉👍
Cheers
A disturbing lack of lifeboats.
But seriously, good video!
It's an interesting topic and video.
Looks nice and comfy and snug in that tent.
You are different breed of man, months in the freezing cold, sleeping in the plastic bag and having plastic bags as a socks...
I must try it some day 😉.
You make it sound so grim!
Thank you again for sharing your knowledge! Have you tried an arctic bedding bag? It makes easier and faster setting and packing camp (like the sausage bag for the tent) and the outside pockets come very handy for the stop breaks during the day to keep thermos and food. Best regards.
I'm very open to those sorts of innovations, but I've not found a need for that one thus far. I do have a pocket sewn onto the outside of my sledge cover for quick access during the day.
Pretty interesting video, tho I utterly despise any type of cold weather and or hiking in it if at all possible.
I guess we will have to settle for more of this until you get back to the really exciting stuff again ;-)
Enjoying your lifeboat vids bud. Ive got a metal mini mill and lathe if you are in need of a part or two needing machined.
of course i would do all things completely differently. that said, i have no experience camping in the cold and you survived. 😊
awesome video as always. But you missed an important key safety feature of VBLs. P bottle incidents are way less prone to catastrophic results.
Well done and explained. Have you ever tried a liner on the outside as well? I have run into (albeit rare) where we have thermal inversions overnight. It may be -30 when you set in but -10 when you wake up and the tent is raining inside.
I have not yet tried but always open to learning from others who have had a poor outcome 😂
I sometimes use a loose nylon fly draped over the bag if there's a major hoarfrost issue.
Thank you .
Very very interesting and helpful video, many thanks for all your precious insights! I'm from Germany and I'm soon planing to do a snowshoe-hike and a wintercamp for a few nights in a snowy aerea, but yet not experienced with very cold nights (my coldest was -4⁰C). So I have one question: when sleeping in freezing cold temperatures outside with a tarp is it possible to use my "breathable" bivybag (it's the Alpkit Hunka XL) on an adequate temperature-rated down sleeping bag? Do you recommend using it with a VBL inside?
Thanks.
A bivvy bag underneath a tarp certainty won't hurt, but both of those are there to mostly keep rain off you.
It depends how many nights. If you risk sleeping whilst in not totally dry clothing, or think it'll be hard to stop moisture from within, a VBL will be useful. If you keep your sleeping bag dry, a breathable bivvy bag isn't that important, but it won't cause any problems. If it's dry cold, and not windy, and if your tarp is not generating hoarfrost, I'd say the bivvy bag is unnecessary.
Shoveling snow from the tent area is unnecessary. If snow is soft you just tramp it down with your skis with good marginal around tent. If there is deep enough snow you can dig vestibule after pitching so that there is more room, in some cases even up to standing straight. Even smaller digging makes it comfortable to sit "on shelf" when there is proper leg room in vestibule
I assure you that ski trampled snow this thick, and this soft, would have been a nightmare. Shovelling was needed.
Along with death and taxes the other thing that is a 100% given is that original tent and sleeping bag, bags are always too small.
You can ignore physics but you can't ignore the consequences of ignoring physics!
That should have been the note left at the pole for Scot by the Norwegians - the many reasons why the British assault on the Pole was a disaster that makes for miserable reading and the Norwegian account is a thrilling boys-own tale of triumphant adventure.
As a semi-tropical mammal I am more than happy to be an awe-struck member of the audience!
It's certainly true that priorities and a series of key decisions were the difference between having a tough but do-able trip, and one that wasn't survivable.
@@AlexHibbertOriginals Starting with the choice of ships that transported their vastly different supplies and ending with their prowess as skiers .. . ..
All those who bought/rented Fram tended to do ok!
Hi, fantastic video, thanks. I didn't understand the bit around 21min about the freezing point issue, could you please develop? Also, I wanted to ask what R-value equivalent you think you're getting from just the 3 foam pads: any clue?
It's about where the freezing point is located in the system. Next to your skin? You get cold. Somewhere in the middle, preferably in the outer layers? Ideal. Too far out and you are radiating lots of heat, and the cover will be too warm, and so may get damp.
Not sure about R values for the mats save for what thermarest publish for one mat.
@@AlexHibbertOriginals Ok, so it's about getting neither too cold nor too hot, no shivering and no moisture. Got it, thanks.
Your sleeping pad system got me thinking, thanks also for that. Love the videos, can't wait for more on extreme cold camping.
HI. I learned a lot. Thank you. Your overbag seems to be thin which surprised me but makes sense. Could you tell me what is the brand and model ?
That's made by PHD. They have a couple of overbags. Other synthetic ones are on the market and a bit cheaper.
An idea for a future adventure - travel to [somewhere challenging] using absolutely nothing made of any type of plastic. Possible?
It would have to be a warm climate expedition if there was no plastic as there would be no tent (canvas tent maybe?), no shoe laces or soles for shoes, no thermals, no sleeping mats, no shell or soft shell clothing, no fishing line (braid and mono are a type of plastic) except gut line, no commercial fishing rod (even carbon rods have plastic in the handle) and the list goes on. It is nuts to think how ubiquitous plastic is in our lives and also nuts as to how it has transformed ski touring/bushwalking/mountain climbing by making them safer and lighter. Imagine how Shackleton et al would have endured Antarctica if they’d had plastic clothes, sleeping bags, tents, shoes etc. It scares me now that my recycled plastic bottle very warm fleece jacket releases a shower of micro plastics every time I wear it.
@@teeanahera8949 All valid points. I was really thinking of polar expeditions. i.e. Would Alex like to consider an expedition to a polar region using equipment built from materials that would have been available to Shackleton, Scott, Amundsen, etc., although with modern design techniques and electronic communications for safety.
Thanks again for a very interesting and yet entertaining video. I will now have to look for you going on a real expedition to see your expertise in use. One question, though. So, you are all tucked in your 3 sleeping bags, have your night headgear on, then you have to urinate or you have diarrhea. Do you pull things down just enough to go in a can, go outside or just wear a Depends? Not trying to be flip, even though the thought of it can seem amusing, but what do you do? Thanks again for the quality content.
Paid Alan a visit this morning, glad to report he is looking well apart from some marine growth on his hull, nothing that a jet wash wouldn’t sort! 🤙💦
I think the rest will need a quick sanding. But not too laborious.
i've done a fair bit of winter camping/hiking but always where i could have a fire. the above tree line would be a whole different type of thing
Reliance on stoves takes time to get used to, and in particular how they aren't for warming you, per se. So, clothing is key to camping comfort.
@@AlexHibbertOriginals it would be a totally different experience. I really like a fire in the back country.
Hi Alex nice videos. I have the same down bag/synthetic over bag system. I usually go on a 10/14 days trips in Scandinavia. temperatures in the negative 20"s/30's. would you suggest a VBL for those sort of timelenghts? then, how do you cope with personal Hygiene? using the VBL means that the body sweat sticks on your body, especially in the intimate parts. any suggestions about that? thanks
For over a week I would definitely use a VBL, unless the sleeping bag is majorly over spec and you don't mind ice forming.
I wear a base layer in the bag, so my skin isn't in direct contact with the plastic. For hygiene, small wet wipe packs that are quick to thaw.
When you have your shoes outside the sleeping bag. Aren't they cold to put on in the morning? If they are dry, can't you put the shoes in a plastic bag that you then put in the sleeping bag?
It's a space issue really. A hot Nalgene bottle inside the boot for 5 mins in the morning is a treat.
It is not clear from the video: the VBL bag insert stops under your armpits and you sleep with your arms and chest outside of it? Or it should go all the way to your shoulders/neck level with your arms and chest inside the VBL? Thanks!
When not gesticulating at the camera like a deep frozen preacher, my arms are indeed inside the VBL.
How efficient when pulling one off b4 kip?
I have a question: just how bad is it if you don't sleep with a VBL? I get that your body gives off moisture, and it can get into the bag, and that can lower the bag's effectiveness, but by how much? Most of the moisture you give off is from your breath right? And if you've got a synthetic overbag, doesn't the down one stay dry? I haven't had any problems on 2-3 night trips at moderate temps (-10 or -20c), but you're talking about much longer trips, and at much lower temps - does the body moisture sleeping bag issue become far more serious over time and in extreme cold? Thanks for the thoughtful discussion!
My experience is that without a VBL, or with a bad bought one, you notice ice lumps forming in the down after about a week.
OK thanks for the reply. @@AlexHibbertOriginals
So you finally get set for the night, snug inside your walkers cheese and onion crisps bag... then you need another slash
1.5L Nalgene to the rescue.
Voice over Alex are younger than Alex in the shots, but the oldest must be the one reading comments, so who's real? Maybe the one thinking of the comments he just read 🤔
Odd question, but what about desiccants? not worth it?
You'd need half a ton.
@@AlexHibbertOriginals that's a shame, wonder if anyone's working on something better than the current silica stuff
I do prefer Allan.
Im curious why you wouldn't flatten out the area underneath the tent for a more comfortable rest?
I actually did, and then reshaped the sleeping area with my knees. There were some twigs sticking through the snow that I would normally cut before putting the tent up, and they gave an illusion of an uneven surface.
@@AlexHibbertOriginals Ah yes. Even the most novice "camper" has experienced the wrath of the twigs .
I was always interested in what type of Expensive sleeping bag you used as I use this China made Red duck down mummy sleeping bag LY-20108, 320T Nylon, Size 210cm (L) x 80 cm (W) x 50cm (W), Weight: 2.3Kg (including 1500g duck down), -30°C - -15°C-5°C rating It only cost me around $165 AUD or 85.73 GBP.
I have Osteoarthritis, pinching nerves in my back, living on pain meds for life etc so I can only sleep on a couple of those self inflating 8cm & 10cm thick mattresses on the floor, sheets & a light sleeping bag in between month's as a top cover, a sheet for summer & the duck down sleeping bag as a top cover during winter when it gets down to about minus 2c. The duck down sleeping bag used as a cover only acts like a huge sock for part of my legs & feet while acting like just a very warm duvet cover without having many bulky under clothes.
At $165 I wonder how much of that 1,500g of down is actually feathers. The bag Alex had was rated -45ºc and was lighter than yours. Any way in -2ºc it must be very cosy.
@@teeanahera8949 Perhaps it's the quality of feathers, size etc that make all the difference but his sleeping bag would be 3 to 4 times the price, they are not cheap the name brand minus 45 sleeping bags.
How do you dry off in the morning when you're all sweaty and gross from sleeping in a plastic bag, and then how do you dry off your baselayers you slept in? Do you really get out of the bag damp and pack up your stuff while you're still in damp clothes? How does that not cause hypothermia in such low temps? Or does it somehow sublimate without ever melting so the water doesn't make much contact with the skin to be able to take the energy from the body, and it just takes it from the cloth instead?
With the balaclava tight on your face and getting moist from breath, doesn't it make your nose even colder than it would be without it? I experienced this with a thin, synthetic buff at 25F. What could be going on there?
Also, there's something really appealing to me about the level of anal-retentiveness you have to be to keep your sleep system dry.
The baselayers don't tend to get damp. You shouldn't sleep too hot, and that's one reason why over-specced sleeping bags are a problem. I'd need advise from a physiologist, but my guess is that the body's core and skin temperature, and the surrounding humidity, trigger a reduction in perspiration. The baselayers will of course not be bone dry, but they feel dry to the touch, and a short time in the air of the tent before dressing solves the rest.
The balaclava is exceptionally thin, so no it didn't get damp with my use. You could cut and hem a little mouth slit if need-be. Even if it did, at the coldest temperatures that's better than a bare face, or retreating inside the sleeping bag and getting that wet.
5:07 So far, so fine. But will anyone please explain me, why XPE is't available in thicknesses over a few millimeters, on the foam market?
I know, there are thicker rollers out there, but as plain foam, because that stuff is dirt cheap, no chance. Only as plates, they are up to 5cm thickness. Is it really the case, that we are left with one mass market producer and that one gives a shit about anything else than 3mm packing foam?
Oh yeah, in a few seconds Alex is using EVA rollers, and they basically weigh ten times as much as XPE, plus they are water sucking, which again XPE isn't.
let alone, that XPE is recyclable, like any plastic bag, while EVA is basically trash to burn or dump.
Can we please fix that😩
Supazote is a true polyethylene foam, as far as I'm aware? And I can see plenty of 7mm+ yoga mats etc on the market made of XPE.
@@AlexHibbertOriginals I own one. The problem is, i'm a little bit large for it. Also 7mm is not that much. I would rather take the 30mm Plastazote type foam and not have it precut in 1000x2000 tiles☹️ I think, one day i need to visit a factory.
Thx anyway👍
Evazote is quite a step up from Plastazote, and I've had no issues with it retaining moisture. Mine was two 10mm pads bonded with 3M 1099 adhesive.
@@AlexHibbertOriginals The sturdy roller? Doesn't look like 2cm🤔
No that's thinner. The black flat under-mat is 2x 10mm Evazote.
You clearly need a large bag where you collect all you mattresses into one solid block. Or even better -- you need to permanently sew the said bag onto the tent floor. Or even better -- to sew it under the tent floor so the floor will be be clean and less messy. The said bag can have opening on both ends, so it is easy to empty. Depends on the sleeping habits of of course, I tend to roll around alot.
Some people do use mat bags, but then you need to decide what it's made of. Unlike it's cuben or similar, it might wet out and then ice up. Also, I keep changing the z-lites between seat, footrest and sleeping mat, so need access. I am investigating a velcro system with a new sort of Primaloft quilt - but it's very experimental.
This all sounds miserable Alex 😂
Much less miserable than if you didn't follow these or similar steps!