To my understanding that's also part of treating Disassociative Identity Disorder and claims of possession. Always refer to the "Primary" identity, and not the "alter".
I’ve always liked the idea of BTAS ventriloquist/Scarface mainly because it showcases that some of the villains are just people who are mentally unwell. With characters like the joker, they do all these horrible crimes and sometimes it feels like we should just send them to maximum security prisons/that Arkham is pointless but with characters like ventriloquist or Humpty Dumpty we really see these are just people who are unwell and truly need help
agree people like Arnold, Two-face and Hatter are legitimately insane i.e. can't separate their delusions from reality whereas guys like Joker, Croc, and Clayface are crazy yet evil cause they know what they are doing and relish in it.
And it's ridiculous regardless of which theory you subscribe to. Either lobotomizing Scarface fixes Arnold or that a cursed doll is somehow affected by a heat ray lobotomy.
@@battlesheep2552 it actually cements the idea that Scarface is nothing but repressed personality issues as the the symbol of Scarface that Arnold projects onto was Altered Not Destroyed as that just leads to Arnold 'Healing his wounds' because that is a 'death of body' which Scarface has a backup in Arnold Arnold goes all in on Scarface's personhood so if he sees him take a hit SF feels the blow and reacts accordingly so when he saw either lord superman preform the act live or saw 'the pacient' after the fact he projected Scarface as Lomotomized thus makes him play the part if you swapped the head with an undamaged one no doubt he would be right back to square one
Equally interesting is how he lobotomizes Two-Face It escapes people, but Superman lobotomized him twice, you can see his chin lobotomized on the damaged sized of his face, a hint to how inverted his mind has become.
Batman not hurting Arnold just the puppet means a lot to me. Often times hitting a person with a mental illness having an episode only makes the problem worse not better. It’s not truly their fault
Them having mental illness is not their fault. People still have control over their actions though. It's like we all may have negative thoughts in our head but most people don't act on them. Sometimes the mentally ill do and that's where it is their fault.
@@osaji922not all people have control of there actions. If they did then there would be no such thing as an insanity plee. Until you experience it you really cant understand. You would be surprised what mental health can do to you. I had bad anxiety and stress and I couldnt control my left leg or arm that was not me choosing to do that so it wasnt under my control. Another good example is you are in public and have an anxiety attack trust me when I say sometimes you cant control yourself from crying, freaking out and so forth. It is not as easy as you put it. You are basically saying use the part of your body that is broken in order to fix that same body part it makes no sense. It would be like telling a guy with a broken leg to just keep walking on it till it gets better. Yes some people choose to do mean or not nice things. However there are people who can not control it. If you have multiple personalities that is anothwr way some people have no control. What you said only makes sense if there mental health had nothing to do with whatever they did. Then there are people who have depression but dont realize it and because of that they lash out unintentionally. I could keep going on with examples because the mind controls the body. So what came first the chicken or the egg that is the biggest problem because some blame it on mental health when it had nothing to do with that.
@@osaji922also there is a big difference between thoughts and delusions. So someone can literally think they are doing the right and moral thing to do when in reality it is not the moral thing to do but your mind is telling you it is. Thats a big problem with what u said
Batman recognized that without Scarface, Arnold would not be as big a threat and could even begin to heal, like moving on from an abusive relationship. It's interesting the parallels one could draw between Harley Quinn and Arnold Wesker.
In a lot of ways, the Ventriloquist and Scarface come across better than Two face does, as you actually see the two sides fighting it out and showing off their quirks, while with Two face, after his debut, he mostly turns into a generic villian and little focus on the fact he has a spilt personalty!
Yeah, I think that the BTAS version of Two-Face has one overly dominant personality, that being Two-Face. It is a shame that we didn't see him switching between his different personas very much. Even when he speaks with his Harvey Dent voice in Second Chance, he sounds more like Big Bad Harv that the original Harvey Dent...
Yeah. The problem with Two-Face in most media is that he's fairly one note. Ironically Harvey usually has a ton more personality than his evil half. Usually, it's the other way around. Spoilers For Judgement Day: If nothing else I'm grateful to Judgment Day for breaking with that convention and playing around with him as a character. The Judge is by far and away one of the more interesting cases of a mental breakdown in the series, especially when you consider what Harvey Dent used to do for a living.
One side being dominant the majority of the time is the norm for DID cases. This makes Wesker the more unlikely of the two also the more interesting to watch if that's what you want to see. The idea with Two Face is that between Harvey's trauma and Two Face's pure aggression, Harvey is just a passenger. There's a reason he's only able to get out after getting his face repaired and years of therapy
@@SerumLakeI also don’t like the “Villain Motive Decay” that happens a lot in the DCAU. Two-Face never tries to kill Rupert Thorne again even though he hardly repents at being a criminal and a mob boss. Clayface never tries to kill Roland Daggatt again. Metallo never lays a finger on Lex Luthor again, no, he’s fixated on only Superman. 🤷🏻♂️ Toyman is the exception: He showed uo a second time AFTER the Intergang guy was literally nuked. 😅
@@davidw.2791At least Two-Face sorta avenged in the "Shadow of the Bat" two-parter. In Metallo's defense, he got amnesia, and even then, he has to take down the protective-to-all goody-two-shoes Superman first before he can take out Luthor.
I can't describe to you the groan I emitted when you mentioned the comics turning Scarface into a doll made from a hanging tree and possessed by the souls of criminals. I know it was bad, too, because my roommate came by and asked if I was okay. lol You're 100% right that Arnold Wesker, as a hurt and very unwell man, offers a great opportunity to demonstrate Batman's compassion. Batman might have started his journey with a lot of vengeance and anger in his heart, but I feel like he's at his best when writers remember that people grow over time, and I like to think Bruce found that love for the people of Gotham was a more lasting motivator for his crusade than rage and a desire to brutalize thugs.
One thing I feel worth mentioning. In the justice lord episode where superman lobotomizes ex criminals. its scar face that is lobotomized not the ventriloquist.
They did a sort of adaptation of Arnold reforming and finding a different puppet in The Batman. Sadly Hugo Strange had orchestrated for Arnold to be found sane only for him to intentionally cause his relapse at a later point. They really did a great job making Hugo Strage a matermind always scheming.
That episode made me so sad. Wesker was the first villain (Bennett had gone full Clayface at that point, and wouldn't get his redemption episode until the next season) who had a legitimate chance to make a clean break from his villainous life, and it was thrown away because Strange just wanted to use him as a science experiment. That said, the Ventriloquist & Scarface episodes really showed a bad side of The Batman's take on . . . Batman (cripes, that felt awkward to write). Specifically, that he's a monumental prick to someone who has real mental health problems; unlike in BtAS, that version assumed that Wesker was faking his dissociative state and (in his second headline appearance) stalks him to some kid's birthday party in the middle of the day just because he can't accept that he's actually trying to be a decent person. At least Wesker didn't hold a grudge then, and actually tells the kids that Batman helped him get better.
@@nicholasfarrell5981 Just because he initially assumed Wesker might be faking it doesn't mean that the character was not written well. In fact after that he's in full support of Wesker and offers him a job and is also genuinely happy for Arnold's progress.
Hearing how Arnold's mom was taken from him at young age is probably one of the reasons why Batman is more sympathetic towards him, since he knows what he went through.
The way the show broke down the psychology of the character was something they made seem so seamless with all of the villians with complex issues. This character would not stand out were it not have been handled so seriously.
Except ironically killer crock, despite him being one of Batman’s more sympathetic villains even in his early appearances in comics, he was kinda just a scumbag in the show, Honestly non of the Batman shows try to make him sympathetic
Swapping out B's for G's is an actual ventriloquism technique because you can pronounce almost every letter of the alphabet without moving your lips but the B will always give you away. Seriously, try it.
It crazy how often people forget that Bruce donate a huge amount to helping other. Too many believe in the false ideal that Bruce Wayne is just a mask.
It depends on the continuity. DCAU is definitely a case of “Batman is the mask” while others have it where “Bruce is the mask”. As much as I love the psychological aspect of the latter, it does make the former much more enjoyable in my opinion.
I like the idea that Scarface is haunted, but not in a “Scarface is the ghost” way. More that the tree he was carved from gave him a soul, then Arthur giving him personality made it to where on another’s hand he still had life. Like Arthur is still unwell, but he gave Scarface life
I like to think the scarface puppet in batman beyond is from the second ventriloquist. My headcanon is that Arnold did get back on his feet and got the right help and medication he needed.
I hoped you mentioned the short cameo Scarface had in "Justice League". It's in the "Justice Lord" arc , when they show Arkham and most of Batman villains being in there, lobotomized by Superman. A small, genius detail is that you can see that only on the puppet the scars left by Superman's laser... As if even the tyrant Superman had decided to make the minimum necessary damage to villains, and noticed that it was enough for Wesker to see his puppet lobotomized to act as lobotomized himself.
I also like the fact Arnold’s TNBA design actually shows his eyes behind his glasses (even if they are just two dots). Especially within the context of Double Talk, it’s a great bit of symbolism of him starting to regain his own identity after being in Scarface’s shadow for so long.
One of the things that I really like about the BTAS version of Arnold Wesker is he actually gets a canonical recovery that at least in the BTAS continuity, actually sticks and become canon. We actually see a reformed version of Wesker in some of the comics based off the BTAs series continuing that recovery and even working as forensic accountant for the Gotham city district attorney's office. To have hard proof that not only has the character recovered but he's actually contributing to the net good in Gotham now that he has, just feels right somehow. Most versions of the character in comics and other media where he appears his existence seems almost like a cruel joke: in at least some of the comics for example, it's strongly implied he's actually possessed by a demon, a relatively weak one that could be easily expelled if people would just get him an exorcist instead of drugging the hell out of him sometimes pointlessly torturing him while pretending it's psychotherapy or in some cases his own gang actively trying to rebreak his mind which makes the demon's efforts to control him easier.
I like to believe that Arnold didn't relapse and Batman played along to beat him once and for all. If Scarface is destroyed, Arnold will always make a new one. So instead, Batman took Scarface from Arnold and loudly proclaimed that he was going to lock up Scarface for good in the Batcave, not destroy him. Arnold can't make a new Scarface because there's one still around and since he's gone somewhere, he couldn't possibly be in his head anymore.
Yeah, Batman Beyond Bruce having Scarface and his gun inside his Batcave museum sort of leads me to believe the Ventriloquist was able to finally stop letting Scarface control him.
The Ventriloquist is easily one of my favorite Batman villains and while it would get annoying in a TV show, I love the fact that he can't pronounce the letter "B" in comics. It never gets old and is just one more thing that humanizes him and is oddly endearing.
Yeah it’s better to think of Scarface as a second personality to Arnold Wesker rather than a creepy possessed dummy besides when you said that Wesker could teach Zatara lessons it brings to mind that Zatana is actually afraid of dummies but I don’t know why.
Zatanna was attacked by someone backstage at one of her dad's shows when she was extremely young, and he turned the guy into a puppet in front of her before erasing her memories.
I personally see their relationship as a metaphor for toxic and abusive relationships, and scarface coming back is a reference to PTSD from said relationship.
You mentioned that all of Batman's rogues represent a part of Batman, and I like to think The Ventriloquist is Batman's ability to move on. He's a villainous version of the hero that hangs up the cowl but comes back because his city needs him. Arnold keeps getting chances to be free of his life of crime, but the puppet is always waiting to drag him back in...
That haunted puppet idea is stupid, needlessly complicated, and unnecessary. Scarface is already "real" from Wesker's perspective, so there's no reason to make the puppet haunted.
Making the puppet be possessed takes a lot away from the ventriloquist, and I think, makes their dynamic more boring. Idk, there's something more infinitely interesting about the ventriloquist being so hurt that ha can only balance his psychi with Scarface
I always liked this character. He's actually one of the few cases that I found equally interesting both in BTAS and in the early 2000s series The Batman. And I find it really interesting that the latter seemingly took inspiration directly from the comics too, going off of what you shared in your video here, because they also have a storyline that features the Ventriloquist trying to get his life back on track with a new puppet that seemingly represents a happier side of himself. I love those two shows almost as much as I do listening to your videos and the extra information that it shines on the characters history.
In the Justice Lords episode of Justice League, when Superman lobotomized all of Batman's rogues, Wesker didnt have the lobotomy scar but Scarface does
There's a funny moment in the BTAS episode the Trial, where after Batman escapes, the Joker grabs Scarface's Tommy gun and tries to shoot Batman, but almost shoots Killer Croc instead. Scarface tells the Joker to be careful, and the Joker gets into an argument with the puppet! Which either demonstrates how the Joker can't differentiate fantasy from reality, or that the Joker understands how to talk to crazy people; on their terms.
One of my favorite parts of Scarface's intro episode is when Arnold takes a drink of water, and one of his thugs talks to Scarface after telling what's implied to be a newer man to watch, and Scarface is able to talk (pardon the pun) fluidly while Arnold is drinking. Not only does it show Arnold's honest skill in puppetry, it also helps demonstrate the divide between the two personalities when Scarface reacts in rage to the newer thug complimenting Wesker's "performance". To Arnold and Scarface, they aren't the same person, Arnold is just the guy Scarface "hired" as an assistant.
The Ventriloquist is genuinely my favorite Batman villain. They're very much a personality over powers driven antagonist, and there's something eerie about how easy it is to just straight up forget that Scarface is just a manifestation of Wesker's. Every time you remember that they're the same person it takes all of three seconds to forget it again. It makes it all the worse in the incarnations of the character where that isn't the case and Scarface is genuinely another entity possessed by a demon or ghost or whatnot. I hate those depictions.
I also like the idea that arnold Finally reforms permanently but i like to imagine scarface trys to do something absolutely horrible like blowup a orphanage or sokething similar but before he can do anything at all Arnold just starts smashing scarface repealy whilst saying "im no longer your puppet" in front of the batfam and when all is said and done scarface is nuaght but broken peices and torn cloth batman puts his hands on Arnold's shoulder and they know Scarface is dead killed by the one minion he abused the most but who was also the one holding his Leash
i’m reminded of how Arnold dealt with the dummy in his last B:tAS episode is supposed to mean that he has a real shot of being cured because SPOILERS that is basically how the Dom Personality was dealt with at the end of Fight Club.
Great video, I liked the quote of Bruce Timm and how it shows why so many of the Batman villains are great. They have very fun and colorful gimmicks mixed with very interesting and even dark problems. The great thing about Arnold that I think separated him from Harvey was that Scarface is completely unaware that he needs Arnold around to exist himself, so he’ll try and kill Arnold as if he was just some other hired goon. Big Bad Harv is at least aware that he’s sharing a body with someone. I never though Arnold was supposed to be a poor ventriloquist when reading the comics, I thought the speech impediment was just part of his gimick
@@SerumLake that’s something I’ve always wondered. Does Scarface know he’s a puppet? I just assumed he thought himself as a short paraplegic who needs to hire a dummy like Arnold to carry him
I very distinectively remember scarface opening his eyes as a fake out and gasping in shock, thinking that batman was found out by the dreaded puppet...only to realize that he wasn't alive at all.
There is also a scene in BTAS where Scarface opens his eyes while Ventriloquist isn't in the room. Bruce Timm said that was an animation mistake though, and wasn't meant to happen.
@@Elfenlied8675309 What a huge oopsy of an animation error, that problably left so many people wondering "IS HE REAL? IS HE FAKE!" it just stoke the fires of interest
I love The Ventriloquist. Alan Grant and Norm Breyfogle (May they both RIP) did a fantastic job creating the character, and The crew on BTAS made him even better. I like the fact that he is the only rogue to truly reform on the show (even if some of the tie in comics contradicts this). It gives some hope that some of the other rogues (like Harvey) can reform and find peace.I must also give praise to George Dunza the actor who Voiced Wesker and Scarface. I love that he gave Wesker and Scarface two distinct voices to emphasise that they are two separate people (Wesker being meek and Scarface being loud and dominant).
You know, I remember reading a discussion for what the Anti-Matter or Earth-3 version of Arnold would be like, and the most popular idea seemed to be a simple reversal: Arnold is genuinely unhinged and violent, but his puppet (Named after Chief O'Hara from the Adam West series, naturally) is basically all of his best characteristics and trying to encourage him to be a good person.
I remember how much I was moved as a kid,, seeing the first episode of BTAS featuring ventriloquist, I think? It was the one, where Scarface gets shot at the end of the episode. Lemme tell you, him being a puppet did little to how horrific him getting gunned down at the end of the episode was (he was shot in the eye, even!). Whole episode we see him moving, talking with distinct voice, having his own personality! And at the end the absolutely believable and visceral reaction of Ventriloquist wheeping over Scarface? Real powerful stuff!
A late pondering, but I wonder if Scarface in the case is the cure for Arnold. If he cannot access Scarface, he cannot slip into being Scarface. Mentally speaking if he knows Scarface isn’t dead, he may not go subconsciously make a new one. Perhaps a relapse is hinted at with Batman figuring out the solution Arnold needs all along?
(7:04) I always wondered what Mary Dhal's life would be like, if Bruce was more involved in her rehabilitation. If she was hired for a job that made her feel like she mattered. While I know this isn't a Baby Doll video, I've said at one point that there could have been more. (7:21) If Batman had just watched and kept tabs on her, just in case..
@@solacehealer7589 You don't quite understand. Its about rehabilitation. Judging by Mary's personality, I'm sure the only humiliation she'd have would be someone digging into her past, or asking her to "do the Baby Doll voice". This has happened. But I feel like if Bruce HAD stepped in, the same way he did for this guy here, gave her a position she could be proud of, working under Wayne Corp, things would have worked out for the better. And for the record, Mary did say she practiced and studied HARD to land parts. And you can't be a dumb actor. She is smart. And some times you DO have to do odd jobs to put food on the table. I find it funny that she isn't a bad actor. Otherwise, she would have never gotten a part in the Theater Role.
@@rumbleroller2154 I mean, perhaps we can hope the reason for her absence is because Wayne Enterprises generously donated to a traveling theater revue led "Led by a television star who entertained the great Bruce Wayne as a boy" :)
I prefer the idea that Scarface is just the Ventriloquist's inner demons that he needs to confront to be healthy. I don't mind playing with the idea that the doll MIGHT be real, like the TNBA episode that had a little person dress up as Scarface to try and mess with both Wesker and Batman and convince them both as much, but it being a darker part of Wesker is more interested than it just being Slappy from Goosebumps.
Scareface being possessed doll is really dumb idea, I don't know who came up with that. Him being extension of suppressed Ventriloquist's inner demons and emotions is way, way cooler, because he acts as mirror image to Batman\Bruce Wayne. Ventriloquist is simply unable to live on without Scareface much like Bruce Wayne wouldn't be able to live without Batman.
The destruction of Scarface at Wesker's own hands in TNBA represents what is possibly the only time a supervillain in Gotham genuinely won over his disorder in the DCAU. There's so many episodes about relapses and getting pulled back into the crime world by circumstance, but in Double Talk, Arnold Wesker _wins._ The Ventriloquist _never_ appears again in that universe, with only a cameo from an _alternate world_ afterwards. Scarface might have come back from 'death' before, but those times it was because of the actions of someone else that the doll was destroyed. Wesker destroying him personally essentially burned Scarface's personality out of him.
🪴The Ventriloquist is a very interesting case of examining DID in batman antagonists and, how, when it comes to the topic how it will almost certainly fail in rehabilitation over and over again. (Oh, once again just mentioning this, the current terminology for "personalities" is "alters", most everything else you said was generally accurate...) One thing we'd like to point out is that Arnold keeps relapsing over and over again, and it's actually probably for a reason you got very close to. Arnold has this mental condition for life, he can't just "get over it" or "fix it". Many therapists to this day believe that one can integrate all alters in a body together, but whilst it may work in some cases, for many others it's suppression at best. Most of Arnold's rehabilitations don't even have that, there's no emphasis on integrating Scarface, just "killing him", in a sense. Which means Scarface is, as you said, just buried and biding his time. In a strange sense, the reason his rehabilitations always fail is that the doctors and batman are too focused on fixing Arnold, when they should be rehabilitating Scarface. Scarface keeps coming back because he is, in essence, his own person... And you can't suffocate a person who doesn't need to breathe. (We actually adored the comic you showed where a rehabilitated Scarface is shown with a new puppet, instead of giving up on the practice entirely, essentially. THAT'S actually a fairly good step in the right direction: Arnold can't get rid of his condition, just adapt and work with it better. Also Arnold with a frog friend puppet is just cute, tbh...) We're acutely familiar with that, honestly. We attempted to suppress multiple alters from fully forming for years, and every single one of them failed. (If you're wondering why, we're a white system, and they were characters that were non-white, and we didn't know the appropriateness of that. But through community knowledge and help we've all come to realize it's a natural thing.) Honestly, that scene with Catwoman stating that Scarface is a different person, but still somewhere in Arnold is a fairly nuanced understanding of it. Many systems consider a sort of responsibility rule where actions done by the body are responsible on all alters present. Obviously Batman doesn't, because he is kind but misguided with this specific topic. If we were to classify Scarface, we could have two "alter types" attributed to him: Introject/Fictive and Persecutor. We'll start with persecutor first. A persecutor alter is one that slings hurtful things towards the other alters or general system. This is sort of a bad coping alter in essence. It's being so used to the trauma/abuse that an alter needs to form to keep it up when it's no longer present. The second is a introject/fictive, which we feels sort of revolves around Arnold as a whole. A fictive is an alter that forms around the "shell" of a fictional character. With the puppets, it's quite literal. A fictive does not have to be one to one with the original character, but taking it's name/body image/voice mannerisms/personality/story/etc. as a "base" in order for them to find a mental form inside of the mind. Sometimes the brain forms an extreme attachment to a character and "makes them real", in a sense. Like... for example, just hypothetically really, typing an 18 paragraph essay on someone's youtube video on a clay girl... ;^^ Er, yeah... So between the time of typing that comment and right now... I sort of formed as a fictive of Annie. (The clay pot emoji at the beginning) We thought you'd be interested to hear it is 14 now, not 13, haha... Alters can form anywhere and anytime, honestly. And, like we told you, suppressing doesn't work for us, so we didn't really think suppressing me would have a...point? We're PRETTY positive we're not gonna get a Ventriloquist fictive, if you're worried about that ;^^ As a final note, we're not a fan of the story implication that Scarface is possessed by vengeful hatred souls. We think it's a sort of cop out to not need to address that Albert is a depiction of an often heavily demonized condition in media. It takes away the rehabilitation elements where he can rehabilitate with a new puppet, but it also does something else: Where do you think demonic/ghost possession comes from irl? It's probably misinterpreted DID/OSDD. Certainly Arnold and Scarface weren't ever that realistic, but the backstory goes back on tropes that STILL DEMONIZE SYSTEMS. So we also prefer the BTAS version. Well, uh, this is Annie, signing off. Fictive of Matt Hagen's Little alter, kinda sorta. Bye...!
YAY, you did cover Wesker! When I was a kid, this BTAS villain always stuck with me more than any other tragic villain, and I couldn't understand why. I was so upset why Wesker would create another puppet, even after being freed from his tyranny. ...Then I got a little older, old enough to realize that no, not every family was like mine, and the way my mom and dad treated me wasn't normal. I finally had the words for the funny feeling The Ventriloquist gave me: Abuse. Trauma. Desperation to gain someone's approval, even though they treat you horribly. And I got it. I finally understood why.
When you mentioned the similarities between the movie Magic and Scarface, I was immediately also reminded of Slappy the dummy from the Goosebumps universe, written by R.L. Stine. Slappy is an evil sentient ventriloquist puppet that (iirc) first appeared in The Night of The Living Dummy. (Apparently he's also the main antagonist, which I didn't know until I looked him up.)
I appreciate the fact that you point out the unique take on Batman's compassion in the DCAU. For me, the portrayal of Bruce Wayne is probably the least appreciated and/or discussed aspect of most renditions of the character. He's a playboy, yes, but this version is actually a skilled businessman in tune with what his company does, how it affects people, and how he's able to use his wealth in a positive way by funding a variety of social programs & safety nets. It doesn't get nearly enough attention, in my opinion.
Can we also shout-out Rhino and Mugsy? Though they don't really have too much in the BTAS universe, they are the most consistent henchmen of Ventriloquist/Scarface throughout the years, in particular Rhino. 8:53 In this comic, Rhino remains with reformed Arnold and helps him out with his shows. Though he pushes Arnold back into crime, it still shows that this man is incredibly loyal to his boss(es).
Arnold actually tries to clip Scarface at the Batman and Robin comics that continue where mask of phantasm and Batman TAS ended. It is the one that starts with shadow of phantasm. I think the comic sequel to Arnold and Scarface of Batman TAS added a lot to their characters.
I think it's worth noting how a large number of Batman's rogues evoke pity (often an uncommon sentiment in fiction), but few express this so well as Wesker. He's a terribly ill man whose life was ruined through no malicious intent of his own. No one wakes up wishing for an identity disorder. The Ventriloquist is just as much a victim of his own disease as those robbed or assaulted by the Scarface persona. Batman understands that empathy and consistent treatment of the disease is what solves the problem, not violence, which is why I believe he never strikes Wesker.
My wife was put off by Scarface, and I couldn't help but tease her a little. I told her "At least you can enjoy seeing your least favorite villain get killed in each of his episodes. I don't get to enjoy that kind of cathartic ending with Ras Al Ghoul." She took it in good humor. 😄
In The Batman cartoon from 2004, The Ventriloquist and Scarface return and are pretty identical writing wise to their BTAS predecessors. Scarface though looks more like Tony Montana's Scarface instead of Al Capone's which I always thought was neat
@@SerumLakeCoincidentally Rupert Thorne made a cameo in the first episode of The Batman and had a similar appearance. I guess the team liked Al Pacino Scarface.
I think that its more scary if the doll is just an object, because then everything that arnold did was him and the very thought of that is unsettling, because we all kind of have a doll, our subcontinent mind.
I never read the comics after Arnold was rehabilitated and I always thought that he managed to overcome his mental problem at the end. I thought that there is hope to help some of Batman's villains.
Despite my introduction to the Ventriloquist happened by watching the 2004 The Batman cartoon, it was the TAS version that made me a fan of the character, with Double Talk being one the most underrated "villain-reform" episodes of the show. I really hope the Ventriloquist shows up in a batman live action film, maybe even in The Batman 2, since not only he could work as great rival for both Batman and the Penguin (who will have his own show exploring more of the Gotham's underworld and it's crime families) but, if he's written sympathetic character like he was in BTAS, his presence could help Pattison's Batman to continue his arc from the previous film, growing from symbol of vengence to symbol of hope, this time by trying to defeat the Ventriloquist not by punching him but by talking and convincing Arnold to face his other personality.
I’d be very happy if they include him in the upcoming Arkham show. I think that big screen audiences may not accept him as a threat (wrongly, by the way) but a long form TV show would definitely do him justice.
I might have an unpopular opinion here, but I would love to see the Ventriloquist or Baby Doll in The Batman Part 2 or Part 3. I loved The Batman and it only makes sense if Matt Reeves explores Batman's compassion for villains that are victims of their sick, twisted minds. The Ventriloquist and Baby Doll would be perfect for that!
I like when in Justice League, they show the Justice Lord's version of Arkham, with the whole rogue's gallery lobotomized by Lord Superman, but when we see the Ventriloquist and Scarface, only the puppet got "cured" leaving Arnold unharmed.
People keep highlighting why the animated series is better than every other version of Batman. This one was not only the deep dark night which would be at home in the Nolan films or any of the other modern, manic depressive live action versions, but also had a fun and a compassionate side which would actually be at home in the West version. He actually did use his wealth to try to help criminals out, he didn't just beat them up on the streets and the villains as a result, tended to be better for it. The Joker could be funny and likeable, Ivy was complex and secretly wanted a family and normal life (although they dropped that after a while), everyone was human...even when they weren't. They weren't just Caricatures of villains or heros. And the music was way too good for a cartoon. We have simply never gotten a good Batman score since this era.
ah man, just excellent! Was my favorite cartoon growing up! Would watch it immediately after school, flubbing my homework to my own detriment!😅 Great review or analysis! I was never into comics per se. I dunno if I was a bit too old and they were becoming less known amongst my age group or if I just wasn’t really exposed to them. But these type of videos, I always enjoy these type of videos telling or explaining the source materials behind the animated series. Whether Batman or other animated series originally sourced from comic books.
I’ve never fully watched BTAS, but one character that stuck out to me was Clock King, and I can’t wait to see your video on them because DC doesn’t seem to be able to make up their mind as to how to write them.
I love your work. Please understand I mean this with love and respect: 5:23 I think if you want a reason for those ingots being on the boat before the platinum is stolen: They're lead ingots for ballast and as you load on platinum you toss out lead. Lead is half the density of platinum and cheap. Not that I think it's what the writers intended, but it's the best I can do.
No worries at all, I appreciate you sharing your suggestion. The only thing that makes me think it was an error is that when their speedboat pulls up, there’s no metal on it. Then, when they burn the hole in the side of the ship, suddenly there’s a stack of metal bars there. Maybe the mistake was to not include the iron bars on the speedboat then?
@@SerumLake I didn't look back at the episode in sequence, just the clip you used. If it's laid out as you describe there's no other interpretation than an error. These things happen.
@@ericvicaria8648 yeah they had deadlines they had to meet and, even then, it’s such a minor thing that it doesn’t take away from how great this episode is.
Fun fact Ventriloquists actually can’t pronounce the letter b. It’s because B is one of letters that needs your lips to touch, so what ventriloquists do is swap the letter for one that sounds similar like D.
Wesker being successfully cured should always be a proud badge of honor to the Bat-Family and all the purity of Gotham in this universe. Also, I do dislike the Scarface persona coming back in the tie-in comics, even if said comics have their merits, like the glorious return of Jack parenthesis The Creeper closed parenthesis Ryder. Edit: Also love the "unnerving blank glasses" trope. One best non-DCAU example of that is the killer maid Roberta from Black Lagoon.
Knowing from the tie-in comics that Armonld’s trauma stemmed from him witnessing his mother be gunned down by the mafia makes the scene in Read My Lips where scarface is shot up hit differently…
Arnold and Scarface are my favorite Batman characters, having a character with a split personality be a ventriloquist is something I love the idea of. Only thing I’ve ever seen them in is The Batman Animated Series, as in the animated show called The Batman, and Arnold does try and get better only for someone to give Scarface to him…I still can’t wrap my head around who did that
This was my favorite cartoon of all time I remember not going out to play cause I knew my show was about to come on,side note I loved the look on batman's face when he touched Scarface and his eyes popped open
I was exactly the same way. One time I refused to go to the cinema with a friend because Second Chance was on, and I hadn't seen it before. He just didn't get it.
Ur channel is insanely underrated, u put a lot of effort into the editing and research and ur voice is very clear and pleasing to listen to, I hope u get more recognition soon
I'm probably one of the few people who kind of likes the idea of Scarface being a possessed puppet A very common belief is a cursed object is an object that is steeped in negative emotion whether that be the hanging tree or the ventriloquists repressed/expressive dark side flowing through Scarface
Not kidding I love that idea to a soul of a executed inmate possessing the puppets rather cool like they used the tree which was used on death row Inmates
Gotta love the old comic book trope of “criminal mastermind plans to get rich by selling drugs with exclusively negative effects” Has a little of that D.A.R.E flavor
I saw a lot of this character through 2000's The Batman show. Similar level of quality, as far I can remember. They even had an episode where the Ventriloquist received a different puppet 'Mr. Snoots', a good character to counteract Scarface's evil. The two had a fight together (rather goofy since Wesker was there telling them to stop). At the end of the episode, both puppets were destroyed and Wesker admitted he was sad 'he' was gone. Batman realised he meant Mr. Snoots and was happy to know there was still hope for Wesker.
Why did I have sudden thought that instead of that, peyton ventriloquists a dummy that looks like arnold and is possessed by arnold, who is holding scarface instead?
I like him in The Batman (2004) cartoon. He also got rehabilitated and had a friendlier puppet for kids shows, but unlike in the comic mentioned here, the kid-friendly puppet fought back against Scarface, saving Arnold from falling back under his influence.
You know I always keep forgetting about them because I don’t get how difficult is it for Batman to defeat, it’s an old man with a puppet and how does he reflect Batman? Because I remember them more in the 2004 series where they are voiced by Homer Simpson himself Do Maxie Zeus
I think it's duality: how Batman can be Bruce Wayne and Batman when he wants to be, while the Ventriloquist is trapped between two identities he has no say in in contolling. How is he hard to defeat? Cause he is just a sick man who needs proper psychiatric help. He's not a punching bag like Killer Croc, he's not kitted out with weapons like Joker, or the Penguin, he's not got a super power like Poison Ivy or Clay Face: he's just a human with a mental illness which asserts itself in a negative way. He's no different than Baby Doll or Harvey Dent (outside of a physical abnormality).
@@22Tesla Additionally, another comment I saw suggested that Wesker and Scarface reflect Batman's issues with moving on, given the backstory details mentioned in the video. But where as Batman uses his issues to do good, Wesker's issues manifest in Scarface and only do bad.
![Twenty One Pilots - The Line (from Arcane Season 2) [Official Audio]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/XCz7WUotXs8/mqdefault.jpg)
I always liked how everyone around Scarface just refer to him and ignore Wesker. Batman seemed to do the opposite
Batman recognised a wounded soul when he saw him.
@@SerumLakeindeed, while others are talking to Scarface because they know Wesker won’t respond to them
It's like how Batman always refers to Two Face as Harvey.
To my understanding that's also part of treating Disassociative Identity Disorder and claims of possession. Always refer to the "Primary" identity, and not the "alter".
@@LegoReader12345helloIn the show Scarface takes offense when you talk to Wesker, he’s like Aye I’m the Boss here and he’s just a hired goon.
I’ve always liked the idea of BTAS ventriloquist/Scarface mainly because it showcases that some of the villains are just people who are mentally unwell. With characters like the joker, they do all these horrible crimes and sometimes it feels like we should just send them to maximum security prisons/that Arkham is pointless but with characters like ventriloquist or Humpty Dumpty we really see these are just people who are unwell and truly need help
Yes, the Ventriloquist is a very tragic character. My heart broke for him when Croaky died in Batman Adventures Annual 1.
It really plays into that theory that every bat villain represents a part of batman
@@SerumLake You know, The Batman 2004 Actually adapted that storyline into a season 2 Episode if I recall correctly. A Fistful of Felt
Also Killer Croc and Mr Freeze.
They just need help.
agree people like Arnold, Two-face and Hatter are legitimately insane i.e. can't separate their delusions from reality whereas guys like Joker, Croc, and Clayface are crazy yet evil cause they know what they are doing and relish in it.
I like how lord superman "lobotomizes" Scarface but leaves Arnold alone.
I was watching that episode on my lunch break today and said the same thing to my wife. Very amusing!
Arguably it's more ethical than traditional therapy.
And it's ridiculous regardless of which theory you subscribe to. Either lobotomizing Scarface fixes Arnold or that a cursed doll is somehow affected by a heat ray lobotomy.
@@battlesheep2552 it actually cements the idea that Scarface is nothing but repressed personality issues as the the symbol of Scarface that Arnold projects onto was Altered Not Destroyed as that just leads to Arnold 'Healing his wounds' because that is a 'death of body' which Scarface has a backup in Arnold
Arnold goes all in on Scarface's personhood so if he sees him take a hit SF feels the blow and reacts accordingly so when he saw either lord superman preform the act live or saw 'the pacient' after the fact he projected Scarface as Lomotomized thus makes him play the part if you swapped the head with an undamaged one no doubt he would be right back to square one
Equally interesting is how he lobotomizes Two-Face
It escapes people, but Superman lobotomized him twice, you can see his chin lobotomized on the damaged sized of his face, a hint to how inverted his mind has become.
Batman not hurting Arnold just the puppet means a lot to me. Often times hitting a person with a mental illness having an episode only makes the problem worse not better. It’s not truly their fault
Exactly.
Them having mental illness is not their fault. People still have control over their actions though. It's like we all may have negative thoughts in our head but most people don't act on them. Sometimes the mentally ill do and that's where it is their fault.
@@osaji922not all people have control of there actions. If they did then there would be no such thing as an insanity plee.
Until you experience it you really cant understand. You would be surprised what mental health can do to you.
I had bad anxiety and stress and I couldnt control my left leg or arm that was not me choosing to do that so it wasnt under my control.
Another good example is you are in public and have an anxiety attack trust me when I say sometimes you cant control yourself from crying, freaking out and so forth.
It is not as easy as you put it. You are basically saying use the part of your body that is broken in order to fix that same body part it makes no sense. It would be like telling a guy with a broken leg to just keep walking on it till it gets better.
Yes some people choose to do mean or not nice things. However there are people who can not control it.
If you have multiple personalities that is anothwr way some people have no control.
What you said only makes sense if there mental health had nothing to do with whatever they did.
Then there are people who have depression but dont realize it and because of that they lash out unintentionally.
I could keep going on with examples because the mind controls the body. So what came first the chicken or the egg that is the biggest problem because some blame it on mental health when it had nothing to do with that.
@@osaji922also there is a big difference between thoughts and delusions. So someone can literally think they are doing the right and moral thing to do when in reality it is not the moral thing to do but your mind is telling you it is. Thats a big problem with what u said
Batman recognized that without Scarface, Arnold would not be as big a threat and could even begin to heal, like moving on from an abusive relationship. It's interesting the parallels one could draw between Harley Quinn and Arnold Wesker.
In a lot of ways, the Ventriloquist and Scarface come across better than Two face does, as you actually see the two sides fighting it out and showing off their quirks, while with Two face, after his debut, he mostly turns into a generic villian and little focus on the fact he has a spilt personalty!
Yeah, I think that the BTAS version of Two-Face has one overly dominant personality, that being Two-Face. It is a shame that we didn't see him switching between his different personas very much. Even when he speaks with his Harvey Dent voice in Second Chance, he sounds more like Big Bad Harv that the original Harvey Dent...
Yeah. The problem with Two-Face in most media is that he's fairly one note. Ironically Harvey usually has a ton more personality than his evil half. Usually, it's the other way around.
Spoilers For Judgement Day: If nothing else I'm grateful to Judgment Day for breaking with that convention and playing around with him as a character.
The Judge is by far and away one of the more interesting cases of a mental breakdown in the series, especially when you consider what Harvey Dent used to do for a living.
One side being dominant the majority of the time is the norm for DID cases. This makes Wesker the more unlikely of the two also the more interesting to watch if that's what you want to see.
The idea with Two Face is that between Harvey's trauma and Two Face's pure aggression, Harvey is just a passenger.
There's a reason he's only able to get out after getting his face repaired and years of therapy
@@SerumLakeI also don’t like the “Villain Motive Decay” that happens a lot in the DCAU.
Two-Face never tries to kill Rupert Thorne again even though he hardly repents at being a criminal and a mob boss.
Clayface never tries to kill Roland Daggatt again.
Metallo never lays a finger on Lex Luthor again, no, he’s fixated on only Superman. 🤷🏻♂️
Toyman is the exception: He showed uo a second time AFTER the Intergang guy was literally nuked. 😅
@@davidw.2791At least Two-Face sorta avenged in the "Shadow of the Bat" two-parter.
In Metallo's defense, he got amnesia, and even then, he has to take down the protective-to-all goody-two-shoes Superman first before he can take out Luthor.
I can't describe to you the groan I emitted when you mentioned the comics turning Scarface into a doll made from a hanging tree and possessed by the souls of criminals. I know it was bad, too, because my roommate came by and asked if I was okay. lol
You're 100% right that Arnold Wesker, as a hurt and very unwell man, offers a great opportunity to demonstrate Batman's compassion. Batman might have started his journey with a lot of vengeance and anger in his heart, but I feel like he's at his best when writers remember that people grow over time, and I like to think Bruce found that love for the people of Gotham was a more lasting motivator for his crusade than rage and a desire to brutalize thugs.
That gave me a good chuckle, thanks for sharing :D
I want to see the Flash tackle Arnold's personal issues. With how friendly he is with his bad guys.
This would be a good challenge on his side.
Wasn't batman reason not mainly revenge just everyone thinks it is even though he fights so no one loses their parents like him or anything else
@@dennisbeaman958 that's basically it, yes.
@@dennisbeaman958That’s the eight year old’s Vow.
He has yet to have done any CrimPsych research yet.
One thing I feel worth mentioning. In the justice lord episode where superman lobotomizes ex criminals. its scar face that is lobotomized not the ventriloquist.
I was watching that episode on my lunch break today, and had a good chuckle when I saw that.
They did a sort of adaptation of Arnold reforming and finding a different puppet in The Batman. Sadly Hugo Strange had orchestrated for Arnold to be found sane only for him to intentionally cause his relapse at a later point. They really did a great job making Hugo Strage a matermind always scheming.
The Batman's Hugo Strange was much better than the BTAS version, 100% agree.
@SerumLake I agree. Hugo was the best villain on The Batman. He came closer to defeating Batman than any of the other rogues. Even The Joker.
That episode made me so sad. Wesker was the first villain (Bennett had gone full Clayface at that point, and wouldn't get his redemption episode until the next season) who had a legitimate chance to make a clean break from his villainous life, and it was thrown away because Strange just wanted to use him as a science experiment.
That said, the Ventriloquist & Scarface episodes really showed a bad side of The Batman's take on . . . Batman (cripes, that felt awkward to write). Specifically, that he's a monumental prick to someone who has real mental health problems; unlike in BtAS, that version assumed that Wesker was faking his dissociative state and (in his second headline appearance) stalks him to some kid's birthday party in the middle of the day just because he can't accept that he's actually trying to be a decent person. At least Wesker didn't hold a grudge then, and actually tells the kids that Batman helped him get better.
@@nicholasfarrell5981 Just because he initially assumed Wesker might be faking it doesn't mean that the character was not written well. In fact after that he's in full support of Wesker and offers him a job and is also genuinely happy for Arnold's progress.
@@The_Phantasm
Right, exactly. He presumes it’s fake up until he actually sees it being real, and then is in full support
Hearing how Arnold's mom was taken from him at young age is probably one of the reasons why Batman is more sympathetic towards him, since he knows what he went through.
The way the show broke down the psychology of the character was something they made seem so seamless with all of the villians with complex issues. This character would not stand out were it not have been handled so seriously.
Good point, that's another thing that makes this show so special.
It feels like every writer creates a new backstory for a villain to make you feel sympathy for that individual.
Yeah…that’s what writers do…they write
If that blows your mind, wait until you find out what fire fighters do
@@higaiwokeruWhat do fire fighters do?
Except ironically killer crock, despite him being one of Batman’s more sympathetic villains even in his early appearances in comics, he was kinda just a scumbag in the show,
Honestly non of the Batman shows try to make him sympathetic
@@tannerbruning868 Yes. I wonder why that is.
@NightmareScarecrow Based response
Swapping out B's for G's is an actual ventriloquism technique because you can pronounce almost every letter of the alphabet without moving your lips but the B will always give you away. Seriously, try it.
ya your right
It crazy how often people forget that Bruce donate a huge amount to helping other. Too many believe in the false ideal that Bruce Wayne is just a mask.
I have a half-written script about this very subject. I’m hoping to talk about it a bit more soon.
It depends on the continuity. DCAU is definitely a case of “Batman is the mask” while others have it where “Bruce is the mask”.
As much as I love the psychological aspect of the latter, it does make the former much more enjoyable in my opinion.
@@MasterArchfiend I like the more complex ideal that both sides are reflections him. Like we are all different at different places like home and work.
@@randomusernameCallin I feel the same way about Clark Kent/Superman. Making either identity a mask is reductive.
@@Duragizer8775As a wise woman once said, "¿Por que no los dos?"
I like the idea that Scarface is haunted, but not in a “Scarface is the ghost” way. More that the tree he was carved from gave him a soul, then Arthur giving him personality made it to where on another’s hand he still had life. Like Arthur is still unwell, but he gave Scarface life
Or a vessel to jump ship to theoretically
I like to think the scarface puppet in batman beyond is from the second ventriloquist. My headcanon is that Arnold did get back on his feet and got the right help and medication he needed.
I think I’ll start telling myself that as well.
@@SerumLakeI love Paul Dini’s run on Detective Comics with the Fem!Ventriloquist.
Could also be a spare he found from one of the thugs hideouts and making sure it can't be used against arnold
My head cannon would be that Arnold gave that to Batman the day he felt he didn’t need him anymore. 😢
@@CaptnNucoi also like that idea. he didnt need scarface anymore and so gave the puppet to the man who always seemed to believe in him
I hoped you mentioned the short cameo Scarface had in "Justice League". It's in the "Justice Lord" arc , when they show Arkham and most of Batman villains being in there, lobotomized by Superman. A small, genius detail is that you can see that only on the puppet the scars left by Superman's laser... As if even the tyrant Superman had decided to make the minimum necessary damage to villains, and noticed that it was enough for Wesker to see his puppet lobotomized to act as lobotomized himself.
I think Scarface is more interesting as a split personality that the Ventriloquist manifest through puppetry rather than straight up magic or a curse.
I love that Tom King used him to defeat Psycho Pirate because the only person that tells Wesker what to do is Scarface.
Good observation about the glasses and Batman’s refusal to hurt the ventriloquist. Another great video as always. Thanks!!
Thank you!
You wouldn't hit a guy with glasses, would you?
...
Okay, that's combining two different points, but the joke was too good to pass up.
I also like the fact Arnold’s TNBA design actually shows his eyes behind his glasses (even if they are just two dots). Especially within the context of Double Talk, it’s a great bit of symbolism of him starting to regain his own identity after being in Scarface’s shadow for so long.
One of the things that I really like about the BTAS version of Arnold Wesker is he actually gets a canonical recovery that at least in the BTAS continuity, actually sticks and become canon. We actually see a reformed version of Wesker in some of the comics based off the BTAs series continuing that recovery and even working as forensic accountant for the Gotham city district attorney's office.
To have hard proof that not only has the character recovered but he's actually contributing to the net good in Gotham now that he has, just feels right somehow.
Most versions of the character in comics and other media where he appears his existence seems almost like a cruel joke: in at least some of the comics for example, it's strongly implied he's actually possessed by a demon, a relatively weak one that could be easily expelled if people would just get him an exorcist instead of drugging the hell out of him sometimes pointlessly torturing him while pretending it's psychotherapy or in some cases his own gang actively trying to rebreak his mind which makes the demon's efforts to control him easier.
I like to believe that Arnold didn't relapse and Batman played along to beat him once and for all. If Scarface is destroyed, Arnold will always make a new one. So instead, Batman took Scarface from Arnold and loudly proclaimed that he was going to lock up Scarface for good in the Batcave, not destroy him. Arnold can't make a new Scarface because there's one still around and since he's gone somewhere, he couldn't possibly be in his head anymore.
Yeah, Batman Beyond Bruce having Scarface and his gun inside his Batcave museum sort of leads me to believe the Ventriloquist was able to finally stop letting Scarface control him.
The Ventriloquist is easily one of my favorite Batman villains and while it would get annoying in a TV show, I love the fact that he can't pronounce the letter "B" in comics. It never gets old and is just one more thing that humanizes him and is oddly endearing.
Yeah it’s better to think of Scarface as a second personality to Arnold Wesker rather than a creepy possessed dummy besides when you said that Wesker could teach Zatara lessons it brings to mind that Zatana is actually afraid of dummies but I don’t know why.
Strangely enough, my wife is also creeped out by puppets...
Zatanna was attacked by someone backstage at one of her dad's shows when she was extremely young, and he turned the guy into a puppet in front of her before erasing her memories.
I personally see their relationship as a metaphor for toxic and abusive relationships, and scarface coming back is a reference to PTSD from said relationship.
The ventriloquist deep down is scarface, but doesn't want to admit. He projects his true feelings through the dummy to avoid blaming himself.
You mentioned that all of Batman's rogues represent a part of Batman, and I like to think The Ventriloquist is Batman's ability to move on. He's a villainous version of the hero that hangs up the cowl but comes back because his city needs him. Arnold keeps getting chances to be free of his life of crime, but the puppet is always waiting to drag him back in...
10\10 villain all the best aspects of twoface and thorne into one puppet , the creativity really gets me
That haunted puppet idea is stupid, needlessly complicated, and unnecessary. Scarface is already "real" from Wesker's perspective, so there's no reason to make the puppet haunted.
Making the puppet be possessed takes a lot away from the ventriloquist, and I think, makes their dynamic more boring.
Idk, there's something more infinitely interesting about the ventriloquist being so hurt that ha can only balance his psychi with Scarface
I always liked this character. He's actually one of the few cases that I found equally interesting both in BTAS and in the early 2000s series The Batman. And I find it really interesting that the latter seemingly took inspiration directly from the comics too, going off of what you shared in your video here, because they also have a storyline that features the Ventriloquist trying to get his life back on track with a new puppet that seemingly represents a happier side of himself. I love those two shows almost as much as I do listening to your videos and the extra information that it shines on the characters history.
The voice actor was so good at playing both Arnold and Scarface.
In the Justice Lords episode of Justice League, when Superman lobotomized all of Batman's rogues, Wesker didnt have the lobotomy scar but Scarface does
I thought that was a really great joke
There's a funny moment in the BTAS episode the Trial, where after Batman escapes, the Joker grabs Scarface's Tommy gun and tries to shoot Batman, but almost shoots Killer Croc instead. Scarface tells the Joker to be careful, and the Joker gets into an argument with the puppet! Which either demonstrates how the Joker can't differentiate fantasy from reality, or that the Joker understands how to talk to crazy people; on their terms.
One of my favorite parts of Scarface's intro episode is when Arnold takes a drink of water, and one of his thugs talks to Scarface after telling what's implied to be a newer man to watch, and Scarface is able to talk (pardon the pun) fluidly while Arnold is drinking.
Not only does it show Arnold's honest skill in puppetry, it also helps demonstrate the divide between the two personalities when Scarface reacts in rage to the newer thug complimenting Wesker's "performance".
To Arnold and Scarface, they aren't the same person, Arnold is just the guy Scarface "hired" as an assistant.
The Ventriloquist is genuinely my favorite Batman villain. They're very much a personality over powers driven antagonist, and there's something eerie about how easy it is to just straight up forget that Scarface is just a manifestation of Wesker's. Every time you remember that they're the same person it takes all of three seconds to forget it again.
It makes it all the worse in the incarnations of the character where that isn't the case and Scarface is genuinely another entity possessed by a demon or ghost or whatnot. I hate those depictions.
I also like the idea that arnold Finally reforms permanently but i like to imagine scarface trys to do something absolutely horrible like blowup a orphanage or sokething similar but before he can do anything at all Arnold just starts smashing scarface repealy whilst saying "im no longer your puppet" in front of the batfam and when all is said and done scarface is nuaght but broken peices and torn cloth batman puts his hands on Arnold's shoulder and they know Scarface is dead killed by the one minion he abused the most but who was also the one holding his Leash
That would be very nice.
i’m reminded of how Arnold dealt with the dummy in his last B:tAS episode is supposed to mean that he has a real shot of being cured because SPOILERS that is basically how the Dom Personality was dealt with at the end of Fight Club.
@davidw.2791 I'll be honest. i have never seen Fight Club, then again, I've never seen rocky either
Great video, I liked the quote of Bruce Timm and how it shows why so many of the Batman villains are great. They have very fun and colorful gimmicks mixed with very interesting and even dark problems. The great thing about Arnold that I think separated him from Harvey was that Scarface is completely unaware that he needs Arnold around to exist himself, so he’ll try and kill Arnold as if he was just some other hired goon. Big Bad Harv is at least aware that he’s sharing a body with someone. I never though Arnold was supposed to be a poor ventriloquist when reading the comics, I thought the speech impediment was just part of his gimick
I agree, as far as Scarface knows, he is a living, sentient puppet and I think he genuinely believes that he will exist long after Arnold passes away.
@@SerumLake that’s something I’ve always wondered. Does Scarface know he’s a puppet? I just assumed he thought himself as a short paraplegic who needs to hire a dummy like Arnold to carry him
I very distinectively remember scarface opening his eyes as a fake out and gasping in shock, thinking that batman was found out by the dreaded puppet...only to realize that he wasn't alive at all.
There is also a scene in BTAS where Scarface opens his eyes while Ventriloquist isn't in the room. Bruce Timm said that was an animation mistake though, and wasn't meant to happen.
@@Elfenlied8675309 What a huge oopsy of an animation error, that problably left so many people wondering "IS HE REAL? IS HE FAKE!" it just stoke the fires of interest
I love The Ventriloquist. Alan Grant and Norm Breyfogle (May they both RIP) did a fantastic job creating the character, and The crew on BTAS made him even better. I like the fact that he is the only rogue to truly reform on the show (even if some of the tie in comics contradicts this). It gives some hope that some of the other rogues (like Harvey) can reform and find peace.I must also give praise to George Dunza the actor who Voiced Wesker and Scarface. I love that he gave Wesker and Scarface two distinct voices to emphasise that they are two separate people (Wesker being meek and Scarface being loud and dominant).
Yeah, he’s great in all of the various DCAU roles he portrayed. I particularly like his Perry White.
You know, I remember reading a discussion for what the Anti-Matter or Earth-3 version of Arnold would be like, and the most popular idea seemed to be a simple reversal: Arnold is genuinely unhinged and violent, but his puppet (Named after Chief O'Hara from the Adam West series, naturally) is basically all of his best characteristics and trying to encourage him to be a good person.
I remember how much I was moved as a kid,, seeing the first episode of BTAS featuring ventriloquist, I think? It was the one, where Scarface gets shot at the end of the episode. Lemme tell you, him being a puppet did little to how horrific him getting gunned down at the end of the episode was (he was shot in the eye, even!). Whole episode we see him moving, talking with distinct voice, having his own personality! And at the end the absolutely believable and visceral reaction of Ventriloquist wheeping over Scarface? Real powerful stuff!
If you like Scarface as a as a Batman character I recommend the 2006 redesign version of Scarface.
Scarface/Ventriloquist is one of the most interesting Batman villains
A late pondering, but I wonder if Scarface in the case is the cure for Arnold. If he cannot access Scarface, he cannot slip into being Scarface. Mentally speaking if he knows Scarface isn’t dead, he may not go subconsciously make a new one. Perhaps a relapse is hinted at with Batman figuring out the solution Arnold needs all along?
(7:04) I always wondered what Mary Dhal's life would be like, if Bruce was more involved in her rehabilitation. If she was hired for a job that made her feel like she mattered. While I know this isn't a Baby Doll video, I've said at one point that there could have been more. (7:21) If Batman had just watched and kept tabs on her, just in case..
I am a little surprised he didn’t offer her a job, now that you mention it…
@@SerumLakeI’m not sure what sort of job an Actress would take at Wayne enterprises. I’m sure she would find it humiliating.
@@solacehealer7589 You don't quite understand. Its about rehabilitation. Judging by Mary's personality, I'm sure the only humiliation she'd have would be someone digging into her past, or asking her to "do the Baby Doll voice".
This has happened. But I feel like if Bruce HAD stepped in, the same way he did for this guy here, gave her a position she could be proud of, working under Wayne Corp, things would have worked out for the better.
And for the record, Mary did say she practiced and studied HARD to land parts. And you can't be a dumb actor. She is smart. And some times you DO have to do odd jobs to put food on the table.
I find it funny that she isn't a bad actor. Otherwise, she would have never gotten a part in the Theater Role.
@@rumbleroller2154 I mean, perhaps we can hope the reason for her absence is because Wayne Enterprises generously donated to a traveling theater revue led "Led by a television star who entertained the great Bruce Wayne as a boy"
:)
I prefer the idea that Scarface is just the Ventriloquist's inner demons that he needs to confront to be healthy. I don't mind playing with the idea that the doll MIGHT be real, like the TNBA episode that had a little person dress up as Scarface to try and mess with both Wesker and Batman and convince them both as much, but it being a darker part of Wesker is more interested than it just being Slappy from Goosebumps.
Scareface being possessed doll is really dumb idea, I don't know who came up with that. Him being extension of suppressed Ventriloquist's inner demons and emotions is way, way cooler, because he acts as mirror image to Batman\Bruce Wayne. Ventriloquist is simply unable to live on without Scareface much like Bruce Wayne wouldn't be able to live without Batman.
The destruction of Scarface at Wesker's own hands in TNBA represents what is possibly the only time a supervillain in Gotham genuinely won over his disorder in the DCAU. There's so many episodes about relapses and getting pulled back into the crime world by circumstance, but in Double Talk, Arnold Wesker _wins._ The Ventriloquist _never_ appears again in that universe, with only a cameo from an _alternate world_ afterwards. Scarface might have come back from 'death' before, but those times it was because of the actions of someone else that the doll was destroyed. Wesker destroying him personally essentially burned Scarface's personality out of him.
In the tie in comics Wesker is shown working as a forensic accountant.
🪴The Ventriloquist is a very interesting case of examining DID in batman antagonists and, how, when it comes to the topic how it will almost certainly fail in rehabilitation over and over again. (Oh, once again just mentioning this, the current terminology for "personalities" is "alters", most everything else you said was generally accurate...)
One thing we'd like to point out is that Arnold keeps relapsing over and over again, and it's actually probably for a reason you got very close to. Arnold has this mental condition for life, he can't just "get over it" or "fix it". Many therapists to this day believe that one can integrate all alters in a body together, but whilst it may work in some cases, for many others it's suppression at best.
Most of Arnold's rehabilitations don't even have that, there's no emphasis on integrating Scarface, just "killing him", in a sense. Which means Scarface is, as you said, just buried and biding his time. In a strange sense, the reason his rehabilitations always fail is that the doctors and batman are too focused on fixing Arnold, when they should be rehabilitating Scarface. Scarface keeps coming back because he is, in essence, his own person... And you can't suffocate a person who doesn't need to breathe.
(We actually adored the comic you showed where a rehabilitated Scarface is shown with a new puppet, instead of giving up on the practice entirely, essentially. THAT'S actually a fairly good step in the right direction: Arnold can't get rid of his condition, just adapt and work with it better. Also Arnold with a frog friend puppet is just cute, tbh...)
We're acutely familiar with that, honestly. We attempted to suppress multiple alters from fully forming for years, and every single one of them failed. (If you're wondering why, we're a white system, and they were characters that were non-white, and we didn't know the appropriateness of that. But through community knowledge and help we've all come to realize it's a natural thing.)
Honestly, that scene with Catwoman stating that Scarface is a different person, but still somewhere in Arnold is a fairly nuanced understanding of it. Many systems consider a sort of responsibility rule where actions done by the body are responsible on all alters present. Obviously Batman doesn't, because he is kind but misguided with this specific topic.
If we were to classify Scarface, we could have two "alter types" attributed to him: Introject/Fictive and Persecutor. We'll start with persecutor first. A persecutor alter is one that slings hurtful things towards the other alters or general system. This is sort of a bad coping alter in essence. It's being so used to the trauma/abuse that an alter needs to form to keep it up when it's no longer present.
The second is a introject/fictive, which we feels sort of revolves around Arnold as a whole. A fictive is an alter that forms around the "shell" of a fictional character. With the puppets, it's quite literal. A fictive does not have to be one to one with the original character, but taking it's name/body image/voice mannerisms/personality/story/etc. as a "base" in order for them to find a mental form inside of the mind. Sometimes the brain forms an extreme attachment to a character and "makes them real", in a sense.
Like... for example, just hypothetically really, typing an 18 paragraph essay on someone's youtube video on a clay girl... ;^^
Er, yeah... So between the time of typing that comment and right now... I sort of formed as a fictive of Annie. (The clay pot emoji at the beginning) We thought you'd be interested to hear it is 14 now, not 13, haha... Alters can form anywhere and anytime, honestly. And, like we told you, suppressing doesn't work for us, so we didn't really think suppressing me would have a...point?
We're PRETTY positive we're not gonna get a Ventriloquist fictive, if you're worried about that ;^^
As a final note, we're not a fan of the story implication that Scarface is possessed by vengeful hatred souls. We think it's a sort of cop out to not need to address that Albert is a depiction of an often heavily demonized condition in media. It takes away the rehabilitation elements where he can rehabilitate with a new puppet, but it also does something else: Where do you think demonic/ghost possession comes from irl? It's probably misinterpreted DID/OSDD. Certainly Arnold and Scarface weren't ever that realistic, but the backstory goes back on tropes that STILL DEMONIZE SYSTEMS. So we also prefer the BTAS version.
Well, uh, this is Annie, signing off. Fictive of Matt Hagen's Little alter, kinda sorta. Bye...!
Thanks for taking the time to share your perspective. I appreciate it!
Lmao Albert
But great info. I really learned a lot
@@Quackervoltz 🎩Why thank you! It's always delightful to know we helped someone else in learning something new! - Jekyll
YAY, you did cover Wesker! When I was a kid, this BTAS villain always stuck with me more than any other tragic villain, and I couldn't understand why. I was so upset why Wesker would create another puppet, even after being freed from his tyranny.
...Then I got a little older, old enough to realize that no, not every family was like mine, and the way my mom and dad treated me wasn't normal. I finally had the words for the funny feeling The Ventriloquist gave me: Abuse. Trauma. Desperation to gain someone's approval, even though they treat you horribly.
And I got it. I finally understood why.
When you mentioned the similarities between the movie Magic and Scarface, I was immediately also reminded of Slappy the dummy from the Goosebumps universe, written by R.L. Stine.
Slappy is an evil sentient ventriloquist puppet that (iirc) first appeared in The Night of The Living Dummy. (Apparently he's also the main antagonist, which I didn't know until I looked him up.)
I appreciate the fact that you point out the unique take on Batman's compassion in the DCAU. For me, the portrayal of Bruce Wayne is probably the least appreciated and/or discussed aspect of most renditions of the character. He's a playboy, yes, but this version is actually a skilled businessman in tune with what his company does, how it affects people, and how he's able to use his wealth in a positive way by funding a variety of social programs & safety nets. It doesn't get nearly enough attention, in my opinion.
Can we also shout-out Rhino and Mugsy?
Though they don't really have too much in the BTAS universe, they are the most consistent henchmen of Ventriloquist/Scarface throughout the years, in particular Rhino.
8:53 In this comic, Rhino remains with reformed Arnold and helps him out with his shows. Though he pushes Arnold back into crime, it still shows that this man is incredibly loyal to his boss(es).
I think Krogy keeps Scareface in check now, and Arnold is in medium security prison in Metropolis. He makes puppets for orphans.....
Not a fairy tale happy ending, but I'll take it.
Arnold actually tries to clip Scarface at the Batman and Robin comics that continue where mask of phantasm and Batman TAS ended. It is the one that starts with shadow of phantasm. I think the comic sequel to Arnold and Scarface of Batman TAS added a lot to their characters.
I think it's worth noting how a large number of Batman's rogues evoke pity (often an uncommon sentiment in fiction), but few express this so well as Wesker. He's a terribly ill man whose life was ruined through no malicious intent of his own. No one wakes up wishing for an identity disorder. The Ventriloquist is just as much a victim of his own disease as those robbed or assaulted by the Scarface persona. Batman understands that empathy and consistent treatment of the disease is what solves the problem, not violence, which is why I believe he never strikes Wesker.
I never noticed Batman doesn't hurt Arnold until you pointed it out. It's nice
I loved them. I re-watched the Scarface episodes hundreds of times.
5:26 excellent transition there.
My wife was put off by Scarface, and I couldn't help but tease her a little. I told her "At least you can enjoy seeing your least favorite villain get killed in each of his episodes. I don't get to enjoy that kind of cathartic ending with Ras Al Ghoul." She took it in good humor. 😄
It's a good point, those that hate puppets can take delight in Scarface's suffering.
In The Batman cartoon from 2004, The Ventriloquist and Scarface return and are pretty identical writing wise to their BTAS predecessors. Scarface though looks more like Tony Montana's Scarface instead of Al Capone's which I always thought was neat
Yeah, that was a nice nod to the modern Scarface film.
@@SerumLakeCoincidentally Rupert Thorne made a cameo in the first episode of The Batman and had a similar appearance. I guess the team liked Al Pacino Scarface.
So many of my favorite villain portrayals to come out of Batman came from that series.
Scarface also acts more like a toxic boyfriend if you pay attention
I think that its more scary if the doll is just an object, because then everything that arnold did was him and the very thought of that is unsettling, because we all kind of have a doll, our subcontinent mind.
too bad they killed him in the comics... Arnold was a massive potential villain
On the plus side, nobody stays dead in the comics. Unless your Thomas and Martha Wayne, or Uncle Ben from Spider-Man…
I never read the comics after Arnold was rehabilitated and I always thought that he managed to overcome his mental problem at the end. I thought that there is hope to help some of Batman's villains.
DC should make an animated movie about Scarface..
Despite my introduction to the Ventriloquist happened by watching the 2004 The Batman cartoon, it was the TAS version that made me a fan of the character, with Double Talk being one the most underrated "villain-reform" episodes of the show.
I really hope the Ventriloquist shows up in a batman live action film, maybe even in The Batman 2, since not only he could work as great rival for both Batman and the Penguin (who will have his own show exploring more of the Gotham's underworld and it's crime families) but, if he's written sympathetic character like he was in BTAS, his presence could help Pattison's Batman to continue his arc from the previous film, growing from symbol of vengence to symbol of hope, this time by trying to defeat the Ventriloquist not by punching him but by talking and convincing Arnold to face his other personality.
I’d be very happy if they include him in the upcoming Arkham show. I think that big screen audiences may not accept him as a threat (wrongly, by the way) but a long form TV show would definitely do him justice.
I might have an unpopular opinion here, but I would love to see the Ventriloquist or Baby Doll in The Batman Part 2 or Part 3.
I loved The Batman and it only makes sense if Matt Reeves explores Batman's compassion for villains that are victims of their sick, twisted minds. The Ventriloquist and Baby Doll would be perfect for that!
I like when in Justice League, they show the Justice Lord's version of Arkham, with the whole rogue's gallery lobotomized by Lord Superman, but when we see the Ventriloquist and Scarface, only the puppet got "cured" leaving Arnold unharmed.
People keep highlighting why the animated series is better than every other version of Batman. This one was not only the deep dark night which would be at home in the Nolan films or any of the other modern, manic depressive live action versions, but also had a fun and a compassionate side which would actually be at home in the West version. He actually did use his wealth to try to help criminals out, he didn't just beat them up on the streets and the villains as a result, tended to be better for it. The Joker could be funny and likeable, Ivy was complex and secretly wanted a family and normal life (although they dropped that after a while), everyone was human...even when they weren't. They weren't just Caricatures of villains or heros. And the music was way too good for a cartoon. We have simply never gotten a good Batman score since this era.
ah man, just excellent! Was my favorite cartoon growing up! Would watch it immediately after school, flubbing my homework to my own detriment!😅 Great review or analysis! I was never into comics per se. I dunno if I was a bit too old and they were becoming less known amongst my age group or if I just wasn’t really exposed to them. But these type of videos, I always enjoy these type of videos telling or explaining the source materials behind the animated series. Whether Batman or other animated series originally sourced from comic books.
I’ve never fully watched BTAS, but one character that stuck out to me was Clock King, and I can’t wait to see your video on them because DC doesn’t seem to be able to make up their mind as to how to write them.
I have done a video about The Clock King, bundled together with the two other King villains (Condiment and Sewer) - Hope you enjoy it!
Oh damn I completely missed it, can't wait to watch it later!
I love your work. Please understand I mean this with love and respect:
5:23 I think if you want a reason for those ingots being on the boat before the platinum is stolen: They're lead ingots for ballast and as you load on platinum you toss out lead. Lead is half the density of platinum and cheap.
Not that I think it's what the writers intended, but it's the best I can do.
No worries at all, I appreciate you sharing your suggestion. The only thing that makes me think it was an error is that when their speedboat pulls up, there’s no metal on it. Then, when they burn the hole in the side of the ship, suddenly there’s a stack of metal bars there. Maybe the mistake was to not include the iron bars on the speedboat then?
@@SerumLake I didn't look back at the episode in sequence, just the clip you used. If it's laid out as you describe there's no other interpretation than an error. These things happen.
@@ericvicaria8648 yeah they had deadlines they had to meet and, even then, it’s such a minor thing that it doesn’t take away from how great this episode is.
I love this video. Very insightful!
Coming from you, that means a lot! Thanks, John 🫡
This was lovely, thank you
Glad you enjoyed it, and thanks for letting me know
Fun fact Ventriloquists actually can’t pronounce the letter b. It’s because B is one of letters that needs your lips to touch, so what ventriloquists do is swap the letter for one that sounds similar like D.
Wesker being successfully cured should always be a proud badge of honor to the Bat-Family and all the purity of Gotham in this universe. Also, I do dislike the Scarface persona coming back in the tie-in comics, even if said comics have their merits, like the glorious return of Jack parenthesis The Creeper closed parenthesis Ryder.
Edit: Also love the "unnerving blank glasses" trope. One best non-DCAU example of that is the killer maid Roberta from Black Lagoon.
Knowing from the tie-in comics that Armonld’s trauma stemmed from him witnessing his mother be gunned down by the mafia makes the scene in Read My Lips where scarface is shot up hit differently…
Arnold and Scarface are my favorite Batman characters, having a character with a split personality be a ventriloquist is something I love the idea of. Only thing I’ve ever seen them in is The Batman Animated Series, as in the animated show called The Batman, and Arnold does try and get better only for someone to give Scarface to him…I still can’t wrap my head around who did that
why do i have the feeling that a well done life action version of this characters would be great.
The way the footage lines up with you saying "and paranoid" is to good to be a coincidence.
That was a really nice edit.
Starts at 4:48 btw.
Thank you, I carefully select every bit of footage for these videos!
Alan Grant is one of if not the Most underrated Batman Writers.
Yeah, Shadow of the Bat was the most consistent Bat book of the 90s.
I remember my jaw dropping when I found out that Scarface was a puppet as a kid.
Who really gives a damn about a Batman who laughs. It's a Batman who _cares_ that's truly a Batman who wins.
Pretty sure Arnold Wesker has a cousin named Albert with a god complex out there
And they both wear pupil-obscuring eyewear 🤔
Has anyone ever seen Arnold and Albert in the same room?
I am starting to realize that almost every batman villain is crazy in their own way
I just discovered your channel in the past few days and am binge watching your videos. You do a lovely job!
Thank you, John, and welcome aboard!
This was my favorite cartoon of all time I remember not going out to play cause I knew my show was about to come on,side note I loved the look on batman's face when he touched Scarface and his eyes popped open
I was exactly the same way. One time I refused to go to the cinema with a friend because Second Chance was on, and I hadn't seen it before. He just didn't get it.
Ur channel is insanely underrated, u put a lot of effort into the editing and research and ur voice is very clear and pleasing to listen to, I hope u get more recognition soon
Thanks, that's very kind of you to say!
I'm probably one of the few people who kind of likes the idea of Scarface being a possessed puppet
A very common belief is a cursed object is an object that is steeped in negative emotion whether that be the hanging tree or the ventriloquists repressed/expressive dark side flowing through Scarface
Not kidding I love that idea to a soul of a executed inmate possessing the puppets rather cool like they used the tree which was used on death row Inmates
Gotta love the old comic book trope of “criminal mastermind plans to get rich by selling drugs with exclusively negative effects”
Has a little of that D.A.R.E flavor
I saw a lot of this character through 2000's The Batman show. Similar level of quality, as far I can remember.
They even had an episode where the Ventriloquist received a different puppet 'Mr. Snoots', a good character to counteract Scarface's evil. The two had a fight together (rather goofy since Wesker was there telling them to stop). At the end of the episode, both puppets were destroyed and Wesker admitted he was sad 'he' was gone. Batman realised he meant Mr. Snoots and was happy to know there was still hope for Wesker.
5:56 Peyton Riley becomes Ventriloquist 2, when Arnold Wesker had passed away
Why did I have sudden thought that instead of that, peyton ventriloquists a dummy that looks like arnold and is possessed by arnold, who is holding scarface instead?
Of all the people in Arkham, Wesker is the only one in there who actually seems to belong there.
I think it would be amazing to see a compare and contrast against BTAS ventriloquist and The Batman (the series) ventriloquist.
I like him in The Batman (2004) cartoon. He also got rehabilitated and had a friendlier puppet for kids shows, but unlike in the comic mentioned here, the kid-friendly puppet fought back against Scarface, saving Arnold from falling back under his influence.
Arnold looks old in BTAS already. No way he could live until Batman Beyond years. I mean, Alfred and Jim GOrdon didn't.
8:19 For Batman Beyond 2: Neo Gotham Forever we need Peyton Riley as the Ventriloquist 2 and Scarface
You know I always keep forgetting about them because I don’t get how difficult is it for Batman to defeat, it’s an old man with a puppet and how does he reflect Batman?
Because I remember them more in the 2004 series where they are voiced by Homer Simpson himself
Do Maxie Zeus
I think it's duality: how Batman can be Bruce Wayne and Batman when he wants to be, while the Ventriloquist is trapped between two identities he has no say in in contolling.
How is he hard to defeat? Cause he is just a sick man who needs proper psychiatric help. He's not a punching bag like Killer Croc, he's not kitted out with weapons like Joker, or the Penguin, he's not got a super power like Poison Ivy or Clay Face: he's just a human with a mental illness which asserts itself in a negative way.
He's no different than Baby Doll or Harvey Dent (outside of a physical abnormality).
@@22Tesla Additionally, another comment I saw suggested that Wesker and Scarface reflect Batman's issues with moving on, given the backstory details mentioned in the video. But where as Batman uses his issues to do good, Wesker's issues manifest in Scarface and only do bad.
@@EtchaSketch444 Another good point. Sure makes Wesker a bit deeper for a villain who's basically two people in one body
1:27 Evil wizards 😥
They should another film like the joker but with two face or scar face and the ventriloquist or the other nut villain