Congrats on the launch of your dream computer. A lot shown here is seriously impressive! Don’t worry I’m sure you’ll get plenty of support for Phase 1. Because as we all know PCB stands for Perfect Computer Buyers. Doesn’t it?
I tried to bring back that "magic" for my kids also, but then I came to the conclusion that that ship has sailed my friend. We were mesmerised by computers back in the 80s because they were new and magical. Kids today will never get that feeling that we had back in the 80s.
I agree. Sadly, times has changed and moved on. Heck, I think I "lost" the magic when Amiga and Atari failed to move into PowerPC and when BeOS, GEOS and OS/2 also died.
I wish I had this when I was little, my main computer was a bit too important (and not mine) to mess with like this. My first laptop ran Minecraft at less than 10fps, and I loved it, but it didn't give the suggestion to "play" with it...This would've been great to encourage me.
I'll be honest, as a niche product that caters to retro enthusiasts, I think this has a bright future. In much the same way that the market for vinyl and cassette continues to exist. It's pretty cool, I'd like to buy one. However, as a mass market education tool: no. I don't think it stands a chance. Parents of young children are in their 20s or early 30s; they probably don't actually know how to use it as they grew up with Windows or Macs. Moreover, the Raspberry Pi kind of fills that niche, assuming you can actually get one! Cheap, well-documented, the 400 is pretty close in form factor to something like a Spectrum, and if your kid bricks a Pi Zero, you're not going to lose any sleep. That's just my 2c. As I said, I think this is a cool project, and I would actually like to buy one.
Totally agree, Raspberry Pi already have the educational market using open software and delivers at 1/10 of the price. This has its place but at this price, it’s not going to be mainstream.
Totally agree. Better not to justify its existence with a use case like “avoid social media pressures”. A parent isn’t going to spend the money on this for a kid unless they are fully aware of the niche. A Pi or similar is a smarter move to learn programming skills for the future.
@@familiehermsen-ouwendijk3805 Then they must be supervised or that modern computer has to be content filtered. With a machine like the Commander X there is no need for supervision or filtering.
I've been a huge fan of the channel for years, and am super excited to see you get to build and market your dream computer. I hope it does well, but I don't know if a computer like this can succeed in education market today. The fundamental issue is software. Using a modern Mac/PC or even smartphone offers so much more, and with emulation, can even offer X16 Software. As for in-home I think the main thing holding it back right now is the lack of HDMI port. Non-retro consumers likely don't have VGA/Composite monitors anymore, and the inability to just plug it in may be an issue. I do hope you can overcome these challenges, because a device which has great software and that doesn't have the problems you mentioned with modern machines would be great!
You can get a Raspberry Pi for a fraction of the price, and a very small fraction at that. For a kid, a Raspberry with Python is a far more useful and far more interesting learning environment than any retro clone computer. In my opinion, all the talk about kids and education is a fool's errand, just parents wanting their kids to like the same kids they liked when they were their age, despite that making no sense.
A Raspberry Pi can emulate the BBC Micro, a computer that was designed for education and would eventually lead to to development of the ARM processor (for the BBC Micros successor).
You're right about kids not wanting toys. That always drove me nuts too. I didn't want to play pretend computer; I wanted to learn. Kids don't want to be Wesley Crusher; they want to be Riker. Same deal.
@@jonathaningram8157I have to agree. It's much easier for kids to learn programming on a regular modern computer. Scratch seems to be great at capturing children's attention as it gives instant visual feedback and allows them to easily develop games. I simply do not believe that many of them would find developing some bouncing line program in BASIC very interesting. I am sure there are some who would enjoy it but for the vast majority it would be too abstract. Also, if they wanted to work closer to the hardware, a basic microcontroller could be a much cheaper alternative which would also allow them to build projects with a physical aspect (blinking LEDs, etc.)
I can't imagine many kids enjoying programming on a retro machine. With all the things modern machines can do- it would probably be hard to sell a kid on programming hangman in text mode. But I could be wrong
Congrats on finally releasing it! I am following the project since its start and honestly it and your review of projects alike made me pursue electronic engineering. I was in last year of middle school when I discovered you and now I am second year bachelor. Thank you!
I too have followed from the start . Some concerns and ideas: 1. Add a tokenized Basic token to store indent and another for label so BASLOAD becomes reversible and these things can be input in line number mode (I assume you already have the old RENUM command). 2. Maybe reach out to 3D Realms new owners, maybe they can do something . 3. Look at other educational programmable systems like microBit, Pi400 and Arduino for further ideas . 4. Beware that the network/modem card can bring in all the baddies in text mode, especially the ones that currently roam on X and in chatrooms . 5. Try to get peek, poke and other simpler operations closer to blitz and assembler speeds . 6. Add graphics commands to ease sideways scrolling like in Ti Parsec and Super Mario . Perhaps draw off screen to the side then execute "HSCROLL count" where count is positive or negative for different directions .
I don't know if you'll see this comment, but I just wanted to let you know how inspiring I find the commander x16 project. I'm not much of a retro computing enthusiast beyond consuming videos about it, but just seeing your dream and all the hard work and creative pivots you've had to make long the way-it's so incredible to see that level of dedication. I'm working on several projects with massively long timelines (years long) and watching this series has given me a lot of energy I need to keep working.
OMG! @badinkstudios! I'm a subscriber to your channel and love your videos! (especially the shorts) didn't expect to see a cool comic youtuber hanging out here in a retro computing channel
@@TheTitaniumBunker that’s awesome! I’m a big fan of retro tech channels in general. Stuff like this or Techmoan. I just enjoy deep dives into technology, engineering, product design, and audio visual mediums. Those kinds of content creators are good examples of how to break something down and tell a clear story while highlighting nuances. It helped me learn how to make better content that broke complex ideas down in a fun way!
The nano editor is nice, but I think it's a long shot to ask kids to write code without the benefits of a mouse for cursor placement, select and move, copy/paste/cut, and even more helpful things like linting and autofill/suggestions. I get that i'm talking to people who grew up without those things in the 80's, but when the alternative exists, and is obviously available to anyone with a modern computer, it just feels unlikely. I hope we get to see a more powerful IDE come to the x16 that can actually be "fun" to write in, rather than "less of a chore." But that's not to say the nano editor isn't a huge step up, it's really awesome and actually encouraging to someone like me. I just don't think it's enough to "cross the gap" that would encourage a 6-12 year old to write programs on it when they could be writing programs on a locked down linux box with an actual IDE or even notepad++ and python.
Also programs like MIT scratch bring kids up to speed very quickly in programming, with drag and drop commands, etc. I helped my son write an atari berzerk clone and also a mario type game with scratch and it only took a day or two. The problem is the commander(or any 8 bit computer) is going to be much harder to program, and won't be much better than something made with Scratch. I now have turned my son on to linux and C programming, with the SDL library, you can blow away any 8 bit computer, and it's just as easy to program, as long as you stay with classic C and stay away from the modern "fad" languages.
if you are concerned about basic's line number issue... smilebasic for the Nintendo DSi/3DS and Switch has labels that you can define, which means you can basically name any point in the code as a jump point for a very easily human-readable program, calculator BASIC is nearly identical in this fashion
Have been following this since the beginning and looking forward to it. I have a 15-year-old son who is into retro computing. Had him watch your video, and he is super excited about the X16! Waiting for the cheaper version did not seem to make sense to me, seeing that in two years, he will be 17, and it may be too late for him at that point. Keep up the great work and thanks!
I don't think that circle chart accurately depicts how successful you'll be selling that to kids. You can't compete with a tablet or a cell phone. Handheld devices that teach kids how to use tools they'll need when they're an adult versus a desktop computer that does nothing but play games and code basic? It can't appeal to the masses. Sure there'll be some nerdy hobby type kids that could get into it but don't have high expectations. I have an 8 yr old. If it doesn't play Roblox it's not cool.
@@SnakebitSTI Exactly, people are learning to code because it's a useful skill, learning to code in commodore basic is less useful than learning to code in cobol for gods sake, atleast some ancient mainframe hardware that's still hanging on runs cobol!
@@timberinternational2377 Goto is harmful. I would argue that learning to code with Basic is one of the worst options for actually then moving to anything modern... Meaning actually used these days...
Yeah and we can expand further, my children don't even find classic nintendo games to be very interesting anymore, I doubt SNES would hold their attention either. Actually even the updated Mario classics for the switch where you can play as a family is something of a chore for them, I'm the only one into it and at a point I'm just like ok these older concepts mostly just can't cannot really compete in the new world of technology. Roblox and Minecraft look simplistic in design but in reality they are anything but; with these giant worlds of endless exploration and the almost infinite amount of creation possible. As a youngin I remember the first time I felt that open and free experience in the video game world was playing EarthBound for the SNES, I didn't even care for RPGS up until that point but just being able to traverse all these realistic (for the time) cities and streets and towns was an eye-opening experience for me and I can imagine the kids of today with what they have at their disposal and thinking a few flashing screens and pixels would do much of anything for them or their enjoyment is nostalgia talking. A pixely tank shooting at a pixely starship would probably get 2 minutes of playtime from a kid who has played almost anything from the last 2 decades and coding a game like that would probably get about 30 seconds.
Fantastic! Here in Brazil we also used a version of BASIC in the form of an editor with paragraph names (without numbers). It was Turbo BASIC and QBASIC. They offered the option to compile as well. Congratulations to everyone on the new computer production team, Mr David and other 8-BIT GUY collaborators. Thank you very much!
I agree it's a good toy for kids, but for kids from the 80s, not 2010s and younger. Just as fathers bought their sons model trains and played with them themselves, now grandparents will buy CommanderX16 for their grandchildren.
Don't get me wrong I love this project, but I think you might be a little optimistic about the prospects of ever evolving this into an educational tool. You went through the pain of learning basic as a kid because computers were new and exciting, but kids these days have ipads with retina screens and an effective endless stream of content on the internet. A pixelated terminal just doesn't impress anymore, (except for a few especially nerdy ones, but if we're honest a Raspberry Pi running a modern Linux kernel is probably a more fitting learning tool for the next generation of nerds-not to mention already a very popular one that will be hard to compete with).
I mean, kids can like pixelated stuff just fine, it's still a widely used artstyle on those retina display ipads. The Commander'as prospects are the *simplicity* of it, where getting into Linux and higher-level code would probably require having... someone to help, who already understands it. As someone who cut her programming teeth in Qbasic and 6502 assembly in year of our lord 2015, there *is* an appeal to simple as dirt systems, for those starting to understand computers without help. Maybe not a *marketable* appeal, but, an appeal.
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Nowadays not even Raspberry PI is a good fit. Kids will soon tinker with IA stuff. 😊
Not to mention that BASIC's only modern usage is in the hobbyist realm. It's irrelevant in the professional world. Learning modern programming and scripting languages is going to serve them much better in life.
@@MustardMan7321Python is just basic without line numbers, CMV ... Doesn't matter if basic or scratch or TIS-100 or C or Go or Rust .. You learn how to program, and then you can learn whatever language... Unless you learn Lisp...
This is a very cool project and im sure they will sell well to hobbyists but this will have no traction in the education sector. Raspberry pies, microbits and commodity pc`s have that market sewn up. Every child has access to these cheap machines at home, the software is standardised and readily available and skills can be directly transferred to the workplace when the time comes. Schools get thousands of these things very cheaply and parts are off the shelf and available everywhere. there is no way the x16 can scale up to make it worthwhile to educators. Worrying about violent games and porn is pointless at this point as every kid has a smartphone and console or pc where accessing this stuff is trivial. Having said that, I wish the project well, any new hobbyist machine coming to market is a joyous occasion.
Congratulations David on such a big milestone! I’ve been following since the beginning and preordered my X16 and accessories last week. So exciting!!! I’m grateful for all of the hard work you’ve done and can’t wait to set the physical system up when it arrives! This is one of those rare things I’ll be happy to lose sleep over. 😊
Congratulations on the launch of your dream computer. I learnt to program on a ZX81, 1K of memory and then an Amstrad CPC 464 using the thick manuals that came with the computer.
Hah! Looks like the website went down due to the sheer number of requests. I might not be able to get one in the first batch, but I've been waiting for this for YEARS. Excited to see that your dream has finally come to fruition!
Indeed, I just tried it and it doesn't work. I was busy when the video came out, I should have watched the video first. Well, the good news is that the newer units will get better.
@@johndododoe1411Commodore Basic, in any of it's variations, was never as good as QBasic. They wanted compatability with old CBM v2, which was just a bare bones and particularly version of standard MS 8 bit Basic, and yet they've added their own, incompatible commands. Which begs the question... why bother with CBM BASIC in the first place?
@@another3997 All the MS 8 bit basics were customized per computer . Adding extension commands were standard with C=128 having the most CBM extensions and other computers having their own extensions . It seems the new extensions are above and beyond C=128, with as much backwards compatibility as they could get . QBASIC, while 16 bits, was the most evolved of the old style MS BASIC versions, succeeding IBM ROM BASIC and GWBASIC for those machines .
7:28 "The Commander X16 literally cannot do those things." I am now picturing the ears of every coder, coders who loves a challenge, becoming red hot. They may choose to create either code or hardware or both which will allow the Commander X16 to do all of those things. I am not saying that they ought to. But, the challenge flag, a flag which was indirectly raised by that aforementioned statement, has been raised. 😇
Basically, if old, Fortran-powered IBM mainframes from 1960's could run "Edith" program, Commandor X16 will do it without problems xD I can see situation, where computer downloads firstly the resolution of picture, then, part by part, downloads small segments of image at one time, downsizes them by creating the mean value of bunch of pixels and converts it into ASCII characters to be displayed on the screen XD
Great news 8 bit guy and the others that made this come to life. Also stumbling on your youtube channel a few years ago, made me get into the Retro Market. I now have a working C64 and Amiga 500.
Nice work, Dave, and to all those involved. This looks, quite impressive, tbh. Best wishes with it moving forward. I have a good feeling, this is going to be very, very well received.
That was so satisfying when the IO perfectly fit in the rear ports haha. Also I had no idea why this product was a thing, or who it was for, but when I grew up with a BBC Micro in our maths classroom, and was so obsessed with making it play silly noises and screen colours, I completely support this product. Awesome stuff tbh!
The educational angle brings back memories. My path was a bit different but I can resonate with the idea. I got my first computer at the age of about 6. It was during the early Pentium era - but what I got was a 386SX with Hercules graphics. At first I was very disappointed with the amber monitor and not being able to play any contemporary games - but I ended up spending a ton of time learning to code in QBasic, then Turbo Pascal, writing batch scripts, advanced CONFIG.SYS techniques (DOS 6 boot menus, anyone?), examining every file of the MS-DOS 6.22 and Windows 3.1 installs that were on there - all that before I was even a teen. My parents happily let me break things, so it had to be reformatted just days after I originally got it... but the next time I knew how to do it myself. So yeah, a computer that's obsolete but not a toy, can be a really good idea for a kid indeed. Although I'm still a bit worried that modern kids might be put off by just how far behind modern hardware the X16 is, especially in terms of graphics.
9:06 David, I don't know the ins and outs of Basic programming like you do, but regular QBasic on MS-DOS has the most amazing built-in index of commands and explanations that I've ever seen. Maybe you can model a built-in index system of basic commands with that?
I miss the help systems included in QBasic or Turbo C. Intellisense completion is a poor substitute, even when it shows documentation in a tooltip. Those docs were amazing and they even included working examples you could run right there. Things started to go south when Microsoft moved everything to the MSDN, and then eventually to an online search.
The more this machine would do is to ping on a server and maybe write a tweet that you can't actually see, I don't expect any HTML5 red player running on it, but he already set the challenge, so who knows?
Excellent, Dave! My pre-order is already in, and I can't wait. My retro-computing to date has been exclusively on the Color Maximite 2, but I have a lot of other experience with other computers, many different languages including assembler languages, so I hope to get up the X16 learning curve pretty fast and produce some decent software.
Your competition isn't V-Tech, its the various Raspberry Pi educational packages that offer much more for less than half the price. You absolutely know those exist.
The biggest problems here for me is going to be the price (I was 100% sure this wasn't going to be 50$ and that's ok). Although the parts in the computer aren't expensive compared to the parts today, I bet that a big part of the price is due to your manufacturing capabilities at home. If all of the computers we use now were produced by two people in a shop, the price would be at least 10 fold the same way that yours is. Congrats btw it looks awesome! In short: If u want a better price and more profit, create a business or licence the product to a manufacturer.
Fascinating! I've been watching this since it all started. I learned on the C64 at 13 or so, but it's been soooo long ago, and I'm so busy I'm fully aware I don't have a realistic prospect of learning all this all over again. I sat down at an old C128 and I literally didn't even remember how to get the alternate characters etc. I love the computer. I love the work you've done. I wish I had the time and energy to invest into re-learning it. In my defense, I also write and create music on Linux home studio systems, do astrophotography and somehow work full-time at the same time as living with a wife who works full time, my step-son and his daughter AND my two granddaughters both under three. So...yeah. Amazing work though!
At last! This is superb. Amazing work all around, really fantastic from the first day to launch day. I cannot congratulate and compliment you enough David and your team also. I shall be ordering one at the weekend!
Three decades ago, I learned programming using QBasic in DOS! An editor with a run command and built-in help and api reference was all it took to teach me as a kid programming from scratch. It was amazingly fun. So kudos on building a proper code editor into the thing!
16:28 For 3D graphics, a CPU with 16 or 33 MHz would have been better. At 8 MHz it will hardly be smooth. That was the case back then too. The Amiga 500 only had around 7 MHz and 3D games stuttered on it. That's why the domain of 3D games was the PC. A 286 with 16 MHz was able to display a typical 3D scene of that time smoothly.
I think when we were kids we started programming because we wanted to make our games, modeled after the games we played on the computers themselves. I think the Commander X16 would have many more chances to succeed in this respect if it had an easy way to export to mobile, so that kids would be motivated to create games for the platform where they and their friends actually play on! of course they wouldn't be the same as commercial games (nor were ours) but they'd have a way to show and play their creations with others (as we did). good luck in any case!
My first computer was a zx81 with 16k ram. I got it for Xmas along with a book that had the basic code for about 50 simple games. I had to painfully type in the code and then save it to my tape cassette. Very quickly I was modifying these games to make them more interesting and then onward to writing my own basic games. Next was the zx spectrum which had a great basic programming manual. I learnt practical applications for math and basic physics to create my own games. This all set me up for a lifelong career in the IT field. So glad I grew up in the 80s!
I suggest having a yellow light if the disk can be read, but not written to. If it cannot be read, then have the light turn red. And also, if the disk can be both read and written to, then have a green light to indicate that.
I'm really happy to see that your dream is coming true. Congratulations. I follow your channel since 2016. During the pandemics I stopped watching videos as i did in the past. Today I came back here and what a surprise!! Congratulations! Hugs from Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. - Sincerely, Felipe Lima
Congratulations to reaching this milestone! I will definitely keep a look out for availability later on! Right now I'm awaiting the Spectrum Next from their 2nd KS, and hope to start introducing my kid to how I grew up with tech! The Commander looks freakin awesome, and if it ends up as a full kit with something like that case and a keyboard I'll most certainly be interested to order from the EU, if possible, even with the added import costs! love it, looks so great - and I'm so happy initiatives like this both keeps poppin up and successfully completes!
I'm always impressed with the updates in the development of this project! I'd love to see some music software in the future! (Hopefully will a piano roll instead of a tracker style timeline.)
Still feel like this might end up with the same trajectory the Amiga went, but we'll see. I do heavily agree with the software call-out at the end. I've been thinking about making either a webzine, magazine, webshow or all of the above to just showcase software wherein one could send in their programs to showcase. I'd kinda go for a Nintendo Power vibe or something similar, but eh. I'm not sure if it'd be best to do a call-out to other developers out there who have done their own stuff on other platforms, I'd rather try to give the X16 its own identity with its own pantheon of devs as time goes on. Either way, I do give kudos for this coming along this far, and hope it does the best it can.
Congrats on the launch of computer. You driving with phenomenal attitude and energy. 2 thumbs UP! from a fellow hobbyist who grew up playing and engineering on 8-bit computers.
I love your videos. I was an early adopter of the Commodore 64 I bought when I was 13 at the Computer Swap Shoppe in Lincoln, Nebraska for $200, my life savings at that time!
That guide "Personal Computing on the VIC-20" should be an example of how a well laid out an outstandingly instructional manual should be constructed. Absolutely brilliant for kids and adults.
The irony of saying "this computer literally can't do those things" followed immediately by "people underestimate kids ability to do things" XD Your own dude made a serial dialup. The machine is absolutely capable of doing the things you said it can't do :)
Man, this is really cool and if I could swing it financially, I’d snag one immediately. But I have to say, I can’t see either one of my kids (7 and 11) bothering to tinker with it in a world where they can write entire games in modern languages using an in-browser learning ide. It’s a noble goal to keep them away from internet dangers, but also maybe a bit unrealistic unless maybe you’re Amish.
Kids won't get excited about DIP chips, performance comparisons with C64/Apple2, or the VIC-20 origins of the platform. Nor will they appreciate the IEC bus connector. In fact, exposing kids to X16 might even be harmful to them. Scratch is perfect for younger children because they can start programming and grasp the basics (sequence of commands, conditional statements, loops, AND/OR logic) even before they can type proficiently. All this in a welcoming environment. How can BASIC even compare to that? Older kids will benefit more from modern Python or Pico8.
A few months ago they were positioning it as a game console. The x16 is neat, but they are still trying to find a market bigger than his viewers to care.
@@keyboard_g I really don’t know if such a market is gonna exist. Pretty sure that trying to become the next TI graphing calculator long after the tech is obsolete to everyone but hobbyists is gonna go badly.
@@mikewifakit's not, this basically only appeals to a specific group that grew up in the era of basic, and I'm absolutely happy they get something like this that appeals to them it's amazing, but it will never have mass market applications. Businesses won't use it cause raspberry pi's are infinitely more useful and cheaper. Education is pointless cause if you're gonna teach kids tech skills (trust me they need them) basic is absolutely pointless in 2023 since it will never be used. Adults going into university literally don't know what file directories are, teach them that over basic. And gamers won't buy if there's any actually good games for it cause there's a free emulator.
Very interesting study of design choices, implementation realities, and the reactions of the fans. Hopefully some enthusiasts who are also parents will be willing to ante up for the gen 1 machines, because they want to see it be made available to a larger audience. I have been a fan and observer of the personal computer world since high school from '79 to '82. I do have a collection of old systems of my own I want to get up and going some day soon.
This looks great. I’ve pre-ordered for myself and my son. My son is now 17 and been wanting to learn to program for years and did some neat complex stuff with his calculator on his own. Since I just returned to work after a period of unemployment, it would have been best if I could have paid immediately, but it is a pay-when-shipped option. Luckily there was a pay later option so I didn’t have to guess which payment method would be best now. I did check and the 3rd party case was not available at the time I placed by X16 order. But hopefully that will change soon with the kits shipping in a few months.
I like your optimism, but I would recommend introducing your son to python instead, or Godot if he wants to produce a game. It's better for future prospects.
congrats on the launch. but for education in my opinion a raspberry with linux is way better and way cheaper. also the controller ports on the back isnt the best but i dont know if they would go on the front with the pcb layout. i think this is a nice device for some retro people but i think we all want the reall thing. and this is to modified to be called a real thing. i think it is basicly to powerfull. i fully understand that this machine is way harder to make then most people will understand outside the retro community. and doing second gens doesnt sound the best idea. people would hold out and hope it is more powerfull and then you get in a cycle where it becomes a normal pc. why not do something to create like early x86 for dos. that way more people would get served. this machine can do all the really old stuff already. and then you would have a machine for just a little newer era of computers. i know it sounds if i dont like the project but i really do. it is great to see so many people coming togheter and creat it. and it will help preserving the early stages of computing at home. older machines will stop working. parts run out, and having something newer that can still do the old stuff the original way will help massivly with that. and i am just a outsider. it is your project and yyou did do a awesome job on it.
At 11:33 you calculate Y*256 which is basically Y times 2 to the power of 8. In binary computing language may be Assembly you can therefor just shift the bits of variable Y by 8 positions left or just shift left one byte which is much faster than a math multiplication.
Good luck i hope they sell well. Out of my price range right now but i understand the costs. Once again good luck! Its looking absolutely awesome so far! And i genuinely hope it gets to the educational stage.
If someone could or has written a screen reading software for this bad boy, I would love to get one! I think the robust tools for making chiptune is my personal draw to the x16. You can’t get a sound more authentic than that!
I admire it as a passion project. But I’d rather a Mega65 than this. I’m trying to understand the target audience for this. But as I say, I admire David’s passion for this!
Being from that era of the 80s where I owned a C64, I remember those fun times. Thats a very promising project, wish you all the success and I will look to buy one at some point.
Looks great but the biggest problem for me is huge cost - for the complete kit (including a case and all the listed accessories) it would set me back £505 ($615) + around £100 ($120) import duty to the UK. As nice as it is there is no way I can justify around £600 ( $735) on this 😢 even without the accessories the cost of the base computer is too high unfortunately. Guess I'll just have to stick with my AGON light 🤷♂
@@jonathaningram8157 that's not a fair comparison though... A more fair comparison would be a console from Analog or something more small batch. Microsoft probably loses money on their consoles anyway, but they are worth a couple trillion, while 8Bit guy is no where close to that
I'm probably totally missing the point of this project, the Agon Light and other modern retros, but I still wonder if the easy answer is to just stick a BASIC on the Raspberry Pi or similar single board computer.
@@PaulioBee For the 8-bit Guy, his purpose was to return to a computer that 1 person could understand every part of. On the Commodore 64, he could directly look at and/or change the value in every memory location. He knew how to code commands to use every function of the processor. But with modern computers, there is no one who knows all the parts involved. Game developers write code that communicates with a game engine, the game engine communicates with an operating system, the operating system communicates with the hardware, and the coders for each of those levels have to copy-and-paste other people's code that they don't necessarily understand. So people still use their old computers from the 1980s, but there are no affordable replacement parts. Eventually there will be no replacement parts at any price. That's one reason people are making these new retro computers. But there's also an element of imagination, comparing these improved designs to the computers from the 80s. It's like people who still make NES game cartridges - the games can't do what Xbox games do, but the idea is "Can you imagine if we'd had this game back in the 80s?" Sure you could just play a game on your phone, but we didn't have smartphones in the 1980s. We did have 8-bit games, and that's what the Commander X16 is. So there's a challenge in achieving more within a limited framework. For example, look up "8K Atari Pac-Man". Someone made the best version of Pac-Man that can play on a real Atari 2600, to show that their software coding is so much better than the official Atari version of Pac-Man that was so bad back in 1982. It uses the same Atari, but this programmer got amazing results with it. Instead of making the best 1980s Pac-Man game cartridge 40 years later, the X16 is more like the best 1980s computer made 40 years later. And there's a community of people, and maybe the people's kids, who will make games and programs for the X16. One guy will show his game, and another guy will be impressed like "I wish I had thought of that for my game, let me go back and use what I learned from him." It means more because these games won't be copied and pasted from the internet, just made in 5 minutes with RPG Maker ready-made graphics packs. If you make your own game for the X16, everyone will know that you made it from scratch within the limitations of the technology. You can go to the store and buy a blanket, but some people still weave or crochet or quilt their own blankets. Yes they're using obsolete technology in a way, but the result is something you can't get at a store. The difference between the X16 and the Playstation 5 is that anyone can use a sewing machine or an X16 at home - their skill will allow them to possibly make the best blanket or X16 game in the world, better than anyone else's. But making the best PS5 game requires a hundred million dollars. Owning a hundred-million-dollar blanket factory lets them make thousands of blankets per day, but it doesn't mean they could make 1 single blanket better than my grandmother can make. EA Sports can make a big game for PS5 - but ask them for an X16 game, and that hundred million dollars suddenly can't help them do any better than I might do by myself. So the X16 is like a guitar for a solo singer-songwriter. 1 man can just use his guitar and make a song that millions of people enjoy. Maybe that will also pay his bills. You could instead use AI to sing whatever lyrics you type, in the style and voice of Frank Sinatra. But if you do it the old-fashioned way, with just a guitar and your real voice, then the people using the easy technology might end up making songs in the style of you, in your voice. You'll never get that using the easy way and the newest tech. Because in the end, somebody has to be creative before we can have anything new. Geniuses have to work alone, because nobody else around them is a genius. So there need to be tools that geniuses can use alone, that they can shape directly without anyone else's ideas in their way. The more of these are available to children while they're still creative, the more geniuses will have a chance to reach their potential.
6:27 Very interesting that he wants to market this computer to education. Especially since in his video on the re-released Speak and Spell, he admitted that most kids probably wouldn't be interested in learning about older computer because it's not a novelty anymore. I guess he went back on his previous statement.
I'm not sure if it would have a market for public education, but I think some college computer engineering courses could benefit from having a modern 8-bit computer in an introductory class so people can see the different chipsets needed for a functional computer without needing a microscope and a de-lidded modern chip. It could also help with giving students awareness of older standards that still exist in industry
I wish this was around when I was a kid. I am now 30 years old and wish I knew how to code. I've been following you since the beginning and I can't wait to purchase this to start learning!
I see the idea, but a $350 price point seems way too high for an educational computer for kids these days. Back then there was a novelty and excitement to this that helped offset the price I feel.
It'll likely come down in price if demand can manifest. The first batch is going to be rough to own - it's mostly going to appeal to enthusiasts with a similar mindset to David's. When the second or third make their way to market, those enthusiasts will have had time to polish it, build community, and generally turn it into an educational platform. That said, nobody would bat an eye at spending $350 on setting up a kid with a guitar and some lessons. It's not really different in that regard: you don't buy this for a kid who has shown no interest in understanding their technology. You buy it for the kid who has more fun with their math homework than playing Fortnite.
I was looking for a solution like this when I was a teen. We got Taiwanese clones of the Apple ][+ with no roms and we loved it! The prices were in the $200 to $500 range at a time when a legit base Apple system was $1200.
In Britain we have the BBC micro:bit which is a microcontroller, but they try to keep kids away from the computer side of the hardware, starting them with block programming and moving on to Python. The link to the real developer community is buried down at the bottom of the site and not advertised. Similarly to the Chromebook, it's not meant for teaching kids how computers really work. But then, I'm sure the X16 couldn't teach kids anything about multithreaded programming, and the languages which support it are only going to be inefficient on an 8-bit processor. I grew up with 8-bits and moved on to Unix and C which had a very single-threaded model, but getting used to this has hindered my development as a programmer.
@@eekee6034 I started out in the late '70 - early 80's with BASIC and 6502 ASM, before moving on to what would become x86-Land, when my father bought a Leading Edge PC. So while I would be a good fit for a 'X16/retro computer, I honestly can't see a viable market beyond people like myself, the ones who grew up cutting our teeth on this kind of computer. Kids today just don't have the connection to that era of early computing, so they won't have the interest.
I'd totally be game to write 3D games on this thing. Love this project! I only had a TI 99/4a growing up .. right up until my parents finally bought a 486DX! ... Loved playing those old games but especially doing art and writing little programs... For me was mostly transcribing sheet music to play in TI extended basic... There's so many things could be done with the x16, given its specs.. Voice synth? 3D graphics? Graphing calculators? Maybe much updated "story machine" ?
I love this! Hilariously, the first game I programmed, on an apple 2, was an "ultra violent game" 😂 my teacher was impressed, but wouldn't let me share it 😢.
"The Commander X16 literally can't do those things!" Haha, now that you've said that, someone who has already taught his _Commodore_ 16 or 64 to get online to do at least some of those things will be like... "Agheghhm... hold my joystick!" Or... "64NIC+ has just entered chat." (They'll make a Commander version of that!)😅
Congrats on the project progress! I’ll admit I don’t really understand who this computer is for as I’m more into the history videos you do, but I’m sure there are tons of people ready to buy!
It's just a modern 6502 system. Like if someone rebuilt a retro system with all the benefits of hindsight. So it's for anyone who wants that and can afford that. I'd love one just to play around with but they're too expensive (or maybe I'm just too broke). It'd be cool if it were more affordable but ehh it's their first shot at doing this and they wanted to make it high quality ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
"...depending on the sales of the first generation unit in order to fund the development of the second..." That is where Retro Games was with the C64 Mini a few years back and people didn't know if they wanted the Mini with the non-functional keyboard. And now... we have the Maxi, and TheA500 etc. Cool stuff can happen when creative people have some funding.
Congrats on the launch of your dream computer. A lot shown here is seriously impressive! Don’t worry I’m sure you’ll get plenty of support for Phase 1. Because as we all know PCB stands for Perfect Computer Buyers. Doesn’t it?
Yes it does!
Well actually 🤓 it stands for Peri's baby is crying 😉
😂😂😂
5 screen Ghostbusters! Let's go😅
Nope! It means Prickly Corn Buns.
I tried to bring back that "magic" for my kids also, but then I came to the conclusion that that ship has sailed my friend. We were mesmerised by computers back in the 80s because they were new and magical. Kids today will never get that feeling that we had back in the 80s.
yeah it looked ok then and shit now.
@@andymouse doesn't look like "shit", it is just primitive.
I agree. Sadly, times has changed and moved on.
Heck, I think I "lost" the magic when Amiga and Atari failed to move into PowerPC and when BeOS, GEOS and OS/2 also died.
Same, my kids think old NES games are boring. 🤷
All Roblox and Minecraft now
I wish I had this when I was little, my main computer was a bit too important (and not mine) to mess with like this. My first laptop ran Minecraft at less than 10fps, and I loved it, but it didn't give the suggestion to "play" with it...This would've been great to encourage me.
I'll be honest, as a niche product that caters to retro enthusiasts, I think this has a bright future. In much the same way that the market for vinyl and cassette continues to exist. It's pretty cool, I'd like to buy one. However, as a mass market education tool: no. I don't think it stands a chance. Parents of young children are in their 20s or early 30s; they probably don't actually know how to use it as they grew up with Windows or Macs. Moreover, the Raspberry Pi kind of fills that niche, assuming you can actually get one! Cheap, well-documented, the 400 is pretty close in form factor to something like a Spectrum, and if your kid bricks a Pi Zero, you're not going to lose any sleep. That's just my 2c. As I said, I think this is a cool project, and I would actually like to buy one.
Totally agree, Raspberry Pi already have the educational market using open software and delivers at 1/10 of the price. This has its place but at this price, it’s not going to be mainstream.
Totally agree. Better not to justify its existence with a use case like “avoid social media pressures”. A parent isn’t going to spend the money on this for a kid unless they are fully aware of the niche. A Pi or similar is a smarter move to learn programming skills for the future.
Back in the day, parents had no clue how to program/work with a Commodore 64.
@@BobischEBMbut then again, nowadays they do on current gen machines.
@@familiehermsen-ouwendijk3805 Then they must be supervised or that modern computer has to be content filtered. With a machine like the Commander X there is no need for supervision or filtering.
I've been a huge fan of the channel for years, and am super excited to see you get to build and market your dream computer. I hope it does well, but I don't know if a computer like this can succeed in education market today. The fundamental issue is software. Using a modern Mac/PC or even smartphone offers so much more, and with emulation, can even offer X16 Software. As for in-home I think the main thing holding it back right now is the lack of HDMI port. Non-retro consumers likely don't have VGA/Composite monitors anymore, and the inability to just plug it in may be an issue. I do hope you can overcome these challenges, because a device which has great software and that doesn't have the problems you mentioned with modern machines would be great!
You can get a Raspberry Pi for a fraction of the price, and a very small fraction at that. For a kid, a Raspberry with Python is a far more useful and far more interesting learning environment than any retro clone computer. In my opinion, all the talk about kids and education is a fool's errand, just parents wanting their kids to like the same kids they liked when they were their age, despite that making no sense.
@@darak2 Not sure why people keep mentioning the Pi - since pre-school my kids have been given school-issued iPad's or Chromebooks.
@@looneyburgmusic because it’s cheap (as in rrp like a pi 3 is about £33 and can do much more
A Raspberry Pi can emulate the BBC Micro, a computer that was designed for education and would eventually lead to to development of the ARM processor (for the BBC Micros successor).
@@MrDuncl yes
But schools want inexpensive complete systems - a role the Chromebook fits perfectly
congratz releasing a computer must be a unreal feeling for you and your team.
Congratulations to the whole team!
You're right about kids not wanting toys. That always drove me nuts too. I didn't want to play pretend computer; I wanted to learn. Kids don't want to be Wesley Crusher; they want to be Riker. Same deal.
Yeah but between kids back then and kids now, there is a huge difference. They may not want toy computer, but the X16 is way to austere I think.
I remember when I had a leapfrog laptop in my early toddler days
Kids will be way less excited than retro parents about this. Unless they live in the woods and have never seen a computer before.
@@jonathaningram8157I have to agree. It's much easier for kids to learn programming on a regular modern computer. Scratch seems to be great at capturing children's attention as it gives instant visual feedback and allows them to easily develop games. I simply do not believe that many of them would find developing some bouncing line program in BASIC very interesting. I am sure there are some who would enjoy it but for the vast majority it would be too abstract.
Also, if they wanted to work closer to the hardware, a basic microcontroller could be a much cheaper alternative which would also allow them to build projects with a physical aspect (blinking LEDs, etc.)
I can't imagine many kids enjoying programming on a retro machine. With all the things modern machines can do- it would probably be hard to sell a kid on programming hangman in text mode. But I could be wrong
Congrats on finally releasing it! I am following the project since its start and honestly it and your review of projects alike made me pursue electronic engineering. I was in last year of middle school when I discovered you and now I am second year bachelor. Thank you!
I too have followed from the start .
Some concerns and ideas:
1. Add a tokenized Basic token to store indent and another for label so BASLOAD becomes reversible and these things can be input in line number mode (I assume you already have the old RENUM command).
2. Maybe reach out to 3D Realms new owners, maybe they can do something .
3. Look at other educational programmable systems like microBit, Pi400 and Arduino for further ideas .
4. Beware that the network/modem card can bring in all the baddies in text mode, especially the ones that currently roam on X and in chatrooms .
5. Try to get peek, poke and other simpler operations closer to blitz and assembler speeds .
6. Add graphics commands to ease sideways scrolling like in Ti Parsec and Super Mario . Perhaps draw off screen to the side then execute "HSCROLL count" where count is positive or negative for different directions .
Nice to hear!!
Congratulations! This is an amazing accomplishment for you and the team.
An 8 bit computer…….something I wanted back in 1982.
I don't know if you'll see this comment, but I just wanted to let you know how inspiring I find the commander x16 project. I'm not much of a retro computing enthusiast beyond consuming videos about it, but just seeing your dream and all the hard work and creative pivots you've had to make long the way-it's so incredible to see that level of dedication. I'm working on several projects with massively long timelines (years long) and watching this series has given me a lot of energy I need to keep working.
OMG! @badinkstudios! I'm a subscriber to your channel and love your videos! (especially the shorts) didn't expect to see a cool comic youtuber hanging out here in a retro computing channel
@@TheTitaniumBunker that’s awesome! I’m a big fan of retro tech channels in general. Stuff like this or Techmoan. I just enjoy deep dives into technology, engineering, product design, and audio visual mediums. Those kinds of content creators are good examples of how to break something down and tell a clear story while highlighting nuances. It helped me learn how to make better content that broke complex ideas down in a fun way!
Congratulations David! The computer looks great!
The nano editor is nice, but I think it's a long shot to ask kids to write code without the benefits of a mouse for cursor placement, select and move, copy/paste/cut, and even more helpful things like linting and autofill/suggestions.
I get that i'm talking to people who grew up without those things in the 80's, but when the alternative exists, and is obviously available to anyone with a modern computer, it just feels unlikely. I hope we get to see a more powerful IDE come to the x16 that can actually be "fun" to write in, rather than "less of a chore."
But that's not to say the nano editor isn't a huge step up, it's really awesome and actually encouraging to someone like me. I just don't think it's enough to "cross the gap" that would encourage a 6-12 year old to write programs on it when they could be writing programs on a locked down linux box with an actual IDE or even notepad++ and python.
Agreed 😊
Also programs like MIT scratch bring kids up to speed very quickly in programming, with drag and drop commands, etc. I helped my son write an atari berzerk clone and also a mario type game with scratch and it only took a day or two. The problem is the commander(or any 8 bit computer) is going to be much harder to program, and won't be much better than something made with Scratch.
I now have turned my son on to linux and C programming, with the SDL library, you can blow away any 8 bit computer, and it's just as easy to program, as long as you stay with classic C and stay away from the modern "fad" languages.
I saw nano and thought, it needs vi/vim/neovim.
@@JeffreyJibson you read my mind, Sir… now some dude on the interwebs is coding Emacs for the X16 right as we speak :)
@@JeffreyJibsonOr even something like Norton commander
if you are concerned about basic's line number issue...
smilebasic for the Nintendo DSi/3DS and Switch has labels that you can define, which means you can basically name any point in the code as a jump point for a very easily human-readable program, calculator BASIC is nearly identical in this fashion
This is such an amazing result. Been watching you for YEARS and to see this dream of yours come to market is just so bad ass!! Congratulations! ❤
Have been following this since the beginning and looking forward to it. I have a 15-year-old son who is into retro computing. Had him watch your video, and he is super excited about the X16! Waiting for the cheaper version did not seem to make sense to me, seeing that in two years, he will be 17, and it may be too late for him at that point. Keep up the great work and thanks!
Smart kid to be interested in retro computing!
@@jackilynpyzocha662Smart parent to make smart kid.
I don't think that circle chart accurately depicts how successful you'll be selling that to kids. You can't compete with a tablet or a cell phone. Handheld devices that teach kids how to use tools they'll need when they're an adult versus a desktop computer that does nothing but play games and code basic? It can't appeal to the masses. Sure there'll be some nerdy hobby type kids that could get into it but don't have high expectations. I have an 8 yr old. If it doesn't play Roblox it's not cool.
I'm not trying to be disrespectful either I'm just a reliable source on kids. Good luck regardless
@@SnakebitSTI Exactly, people are learning to code because it's a useful skill, learning to code in commodore basic is less useful than learning to code in cobol for gods sake, atleast some ancient mainframe hardware that's still hanging on runs cobol!
@@timberinternational2377 Goto is harmful. I would argue that learning to code with Basic is one of the worst options for actually then moving to anything modern... Meaning actually used these days...
Yeah and we can expand further, my children don't even find classic nintendo games to be very interesting anymore, I doubt SNES would hold their attention either. Actually even the updated Mario classics for the switch where you can play as a family is something of a chore for them, I'm the only one into it and at a point I'm just like ok these older concepts mostly just can't cannot really compete in the new world of technology. Roblox and Minecraft look simplistic in design but in reality they are anything but; with these giant worlds of endless exploration and the almost infinite amount of creation possible.
As a youngin I remember the first time I felt that open and free experience in the video game world was playing EarthBound for the SNES, I didn't even care for RPGS up until that point but just being able to traverse all these realistic (for the time) cities and streets and towns was an eye-opening experience for me and I can imagine the kids of today with what they have at their disposal and thinking a few flashing screens and pixels would do much of anything for them or their enjoyment is nostalgia talking. A pixely tank shooting at a pixely starship would probably get 2 minutes of playtime from a kid who has played almost anything from the last 2 decades and coding a game like that would probably get about 30 seconds.
Congratulations. This has been a labor of love and each posting of your progress has been great.
Fantastic!
Here in Brazil we also used a version of BASIC in the form of an editor with paragraph names (without numbers). It was Turbo BASIC and QBASIC. They offered the option to compile as well.
Congratulations to everyone on the new computer production team, Mr David and other 8-BIT GUY collaborators. Thank you very much!
I agree it's a good toy for kids, but for kids from the 80s, not 2010s and younger. Just as fathers bought their sons model trains and played with them themselves, now grandparents will buy CommanderX16 for their grandchildren.
WRONG: They won't.
Exactly.
Don't get me wrong I love this project, but I think you might be a little optimistic about the prospects of ever evolving this into an educational tool. You went through the pain of learning basic as a kid because computers were new and exciting, but kids these days have ipads with retina screens and an effective endless stream of content on the internet. A pixelated terminal just doesn't impress anymore, (except for a few especially nerdy ones, but if we're honest a Raspberry Pi running a modern Linux kernel is probably a more fitting learning tool for the next generation of nerds-not to mention already a very popular one that will be hard to compete with).
I mean, kids can like pixelated stuff just fine, it's still a widely used artstyle on those retina display ipads. The Commander'as prospects are the *simplicity* of it, where getting into Linux and higher-level code would probably require having... someone to help, who already understands it. As someone who cut her programming teeth in Qbasic and 6502 assembly in year of our lord 2015, there *is* an appeal to simple as dirt systems, for those starting to understand computers without help.
Maybe not a *marketable* appeal, but, an appeal.
Nowadays not even Raspberry PI is a good fit. Kids will soon tinker with IA stuff. 😊
Not to mention that BASIC's only modern usage is in the hobbyist realm. It's irrelevant in the professional world. Learning modern programming and scripting languages is going to serve them much better in life.
@@MustardMan7321Python is just basic without line numbers, CMV ...
Doesn't matter if basic or scratch or TIS-100 or C or Go or Rust .. You learn how to program, and then you can learn whatever language...
Unless you learn Lisp...
what about minecraft , how do you explain that
This is a very cool project and im sure they will sell well to hobbyists but this will have no traction in the education sector. Raspberry pies, microbits and commodity pc`s have that market sewn up. Every child has access to these cheap machines at home, the software is standardised and readily available and skills can be directly transferred to the workplace when the time comes. Schools get thousands of these things very cheaply and parts are off the shelf and available everywhere. there is no way the x16 can scale up to make it worthwhile to educators.
Worrying about violent games and porn is pointless at this point as every kid has a smartphone and console or pc where accessing this stuff is trivial.
Having said that, I wish the project well, any new hobbyist machine coming to market is a joyous occasion.
sshh your ruining the dream
What a ride!
Congrats to all people who worked in the project. You have my sincere respect!
Congratulations David on such a big milestone! I’ve been following since the beginning and preordered my X16 and accessories last week. So exciting!!! I’m grateful for all of the hard work you’ve done and can’t wait to set the physical system up when it arrives! This is one of those rare things I’ll be happy to lose sleep over. 😊
Congratulations on the launch of your dream computer. I learnt to program on a ZX81, 1K of memory and then an Amstrad CPC 464 using the thick manuals that came with the computer.
Hah! Looks like the website went down due to the sheer number of requests. I might not be able to get one in the first batch, but I've been waiting for this for YEARS. Excited to see that your dream has finally come to fruition!
Indeed, I just tried it and it doesn't work. I was busy when the video came out, I should have watched the video first. Well, the good news is that the newer units will get better.
Haven’t seen the BASLOAD combined with x16edit in action before this. This is a game changer for basic programming.
Reminds me of QBASIC from 30 years ago .
Or the open-source FreeBASIC that is still going, up-to-date, and very fast.
lol is basic programming still an active scene in 2023
@@johndododoe1411Commodore Basic, in any of it's variations, was never as good as QBasic. They wanted compatability with old CBM v2, which was just a bare bones and particularly version of standard MS 8 bit Basic, and yet they've added their own, incompatible commands. Which begs the question... why bother with CBM BASIC in the first place?
@@another3997 All the MS 8 bit basics were customized per computer . Adding extension commands were standard with C=128 having the most CBM extensions and other computers having their own extensions . It seems the new extensions are above and beyond C=128, with as much backwards compatibility as they could get . QBASIC, while 16 bits, was the most evolved of the old style MS BASIC versions, succeeding IBM ROM BASIC and GWBASIC for those machines .
7:28 "The Commander X16 literally cannot do those things."
I am now picturing the ears of every coder, coders who loves a challenge, becoming red hot. They may choose to create either code or hardware or both which will allow the Commander X16 to do all of those things. I am not saying that they ought to. But, the challenge flag, a flag which was indirectly raised by that aforementioned statement, has been raised. 😇
I mean, he literally demonstrated a WIP wifi card in this video...
I used to get porn on my coco 3 from local BBSs in my early teens. Don't judge me!
Let's not forget that hornography comes in the form of classic novels too.
@@gluttonousmaximus9048 Someone's gonna port Fifty Shades of Grey to the X16 💀
Basically, if old, Fortran-powered IBM mainframes from 1960's could run "Edith" program, Commandor X16 will do it without problems xD I can see situation, where computer downloads firstly the resolution of picture, then, part by part, downloads small segments of image at one time, downsizes them by creating the mean value of bunch of pixels and converts it into ASCII characters to be displayed on the screen XD
Great news 8 bit guy and the others that made this come to life. Also stumbling on your youtube channel a few years ago, made me get into the Retro Market. I now have a working C64 and Amiga 500.
I am 56 and I appreciate all that your doing for the Computer Hobbyist , 8 Bit Guy , Thank you . Liked and Shared :) QC
Nice work, Dave, and to all those involved. This looks, quite impressive, tbh.
Best wishes with it moving forward. I have a good feeling, this is going to be very, very well received.
That was so satisfying when the IO perfectly fit in the rear ports haha.
Also I had no idea why this product was a thing, or who it was for, but when I grew up with a BBC Micro in our maths classroom, and was so obsessed with making it play silly noises and screen colours, I completely support this product. Awesome stuff tbh!
The educational angle brings back memories. My path was a bit different but I can resonate with the idea. I got my first computer at the age of about 6. It was during the early Pentium era - but what I got was a 386SX with Hercules graphics. At first I was very disappointed with the amber monitor and not being able to play any contemporary games - but I ended up spending a ton of time learning to code in QBasic, then Turbo Pascal, writing batch scripts, advanced CONFIG.SYS techniques (DOS 6 boot menus, anyone?), examining every file of the MS-DOS 6.22 and Windows 3.1 installs that were on there - all that before I was even a teen. My parents happily let me break things, so it had to be reformatted just days after I originally got it... but the next time I knew how to do it myself.
So yeah, a computer that's obsolete but not a toy, can be a really good idea for a kid indeed. Although I'm still a bit worried that modern kids might be put off by just how far behind modern hardware the X16 is, especially in terms of graphics.
Super awesome! Congrats. Good luck! Always keeping an eye out on this project. We appreciate it so much
Congratulations on this huge milestone! I can't imagine the amount of work that was required to get here.
Well done! I can almost FEEL someone out there planning a lemmings port.
9:06 David, I don't know the ins and outs of Basic programming like you do, but regular QBasic on MS-DOS has the most amazing built-in index of commands and explanations that I've ever seen. Maybe you can model a built-in index system of basic commands with that?
scruss.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/dosbox-qbasic.png
Note for each of those commands you can [tab] over to it and [enter] and you get a page explaining the command and usage!
BBC Basic also had these things since the 80’s.
I miss the help systems included in QBasic or Turbo C. Intellisense completion is a poor substitute, even when it shows documentation in a tooltip. Those docs were amazing and they even included working examples you could run right there. Things started to go south when Microsoft moved everything to the MSDN, and then eventually to an online search.
@@darak2 The internet is a poor substitute for situations in which there is No Internet!
Well done to you and all of those who contributed in some way. This is impressive!
a huge thanks goes out to pcb-way yay
@@SaraMorgan-ym6ue Indeed! 🙂
Seems like you're truly living your dream! It's cool watching your channel/business evolve over all these years.
Congratulations on getting the X16 to market. Incredible. I hope I'll be able to buy one soon. Wishing you all the best.
Him: kids can use this without parents worrying about the horrors of the internet
Me: *furiously writes web browser*
The more this machine would do is to ping on a server and maybe write a tweet that you can't actually see, I don't expect any HTML5 red player running on it, but he already set the challenge, so who knows?
@@MrLind87 👍
Could write an X16 version of something like Lynx perhaps?
@@SnakebitSTI I think you meant "bloated" rather than "advanced" 😉
@@another3997 no, it's definitely "advanced"
Excellent, Dave! My pre-order is already in, and I can't wait. My retro-computing to date has been exclusively on the Color Maximite 2, but I have a lot of other experience with other computers, many different languages including assembler languages, so I hope to get up the X16 learning curve pretty fast and produce some decent software.
Your competition isn't V-Tech, its the various Raspberry Pi educational packages that offer much more for less than half the price. You absolutely know those exist.
This couldn't be more different from a Raspberry Pi if it tried lmao
The biggest problems here for me is going to be the price (I was 100% sure this wasn't going to be 50$ and that's ok). Although the parts in the computer aren't expensive compared to the parts today, I bet that a big part of the price is due to your manufacturing capabilities at home. If all of the computers we use now were produced by two people in a shop, the price would be at least 10 fold the same way that yours is. Congrats btw it looks awesome!
In short: If u want a better price and more profit, create a business or licence the product to a manufacturer.
Looks amazing! Thank you for the demo. I hope it inspires some people to pickup and tinker with computers.
Buying a Commander X16 to develop ultra violent video games, viruses, and the pressures of social media.
Fascinating!
I've been watching this since it all started.
I learned on the C64 at 13 or so, but it's been soooo long ago, and I'm so busy I'm fully aware I don't have a realistic prospect of learning all this all over again. I sat down at an old C128 and I literally didn't even remember how to get the alternate characters etc.
I love the computer. I love the work you've done. I wish I had the time and energy to invest into re-learning it.
In my defense, I also write and create music on Linux home studio systems, do astrophotography and somehow work full-time at the same time as living with a wife who works full time, my step-son and his daughter AND my two granddaughters both under three.
So...yeah.
Amazing work though!
At last! This is superb.
Amazing work all around, really fantastic from the first day to launch day. I cannot congratulate and compliment you enough David and your team also. I shall be ordering one at the weekend!
The Commodore platform is EXCELLENT as an intro to computing for kids/starters. Kudos on your vision and perserverance!
Three decades ago, I learned programming using QBasic in DOS! An editor with a run command and built-in help and api reference was all it took to teach me as a kid programming from scratch. It was amazingly fun. So kudos on building a proper code editor into the thing!
I would love to see the case have brackets for the slots with the proper holes for whatever application.
7:29 'The commander X16 literally can't do those things' Hold my beer while I port Leisure Suit Larry....
Looks incredibly professional for a product made privately.
125th like
It's made in China and making crap look nice is what they do.
Too be fair, it looks like any design would look, when manufactured by a company which makes these kinds of boards.
ok! it would be incredibly when benchmark i9-14900K vs Commanderx16
I almost bought some of the existing FPGA clones of older computers but none of them grabbed me like the CX16. I'm hyped!
Glad to see the continued success of your retro PC. I know your heart really has been in this for decades.
16:28 For 3D graphics, a CPU with 16 or 33 MHz would have been better. At 8 MHz it will hardly be smooth. That was the case back then too. The Amiga 500 only had around 7 MHz and 3D games stuttered on it. That's why the domain of 3D games was the PC. A 286 with 16 MHz was able to display a typical 3D scene of that time smoothly.
I think when we were kids we started programming because we wanted to make our games, modeled after the games we played on the computers themselves. I think the Commander X16 would have many more chances to succeed in this respect if it had an easy way to export to mobile, so that kids would be motivated to create games for the platform where they and their friends actually play on! of course they wouldn't be the same as commercial games (nor were ours) but they'd have a way to show and play their creations with others (as we did). good luck in any case!
My first computer was a zx81 with 16k ram. I got it for Xmas along with a book that had the basic code for about 50 simple games. I had to painfully type in the code and then save it to my tape cassette. Very quickly I was modifying these games to make them more interesting and then onward to writing my own basic games. Next was the zx spectrum which had a great basic programming manual. I learnt practical applications for math and basic physics to create my own games. This all set me up for a lifelong career in the IT field. So glad I grew up in the 80s!
I suggest having a yellow light if the disk can be read, but not written to. If it cannot be read, then have the light turn red. And also, if the disk can be both read and written to, then have a green light to indicate that.
If "ultra violent" video games are a no-go for the CX16, I guess that rules out my idea: Sandwich Shop Simulator.
Looks like a great product with lots of great improvements on the way! Can't wait to get my hands on one.
I'm really happy to see that your dream is coming true. Congratulations. I follow your channel since 2016. During the pandemics I stopped watching videos as i did in the past. Today I came back here and what a surprise!! Congratulations! Hugs from Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. - Sincerely, Felipe Lima
7:18 - Those ultra-violet video games can be BLINDING!!!!
Congrats on kicking off sales! I hope it sells well ^^
It won't
Great news. Well done on getting it into production.
Congrats, gang! I'm happy to have been able to help with this project, even if it was only financially through the donation drive.
Congratulations to reaching this milestone! I will definitely keep a look out for availability later on! Right now I'm awaiting the Spectrum Next from their 2nd KS, and hope to start introducing my kid to how I grew up with tech! The Commander looks freakin awesome, and if it ends up as a full kit with something like that case and a keyboard I'll most certainly be interested to order from the EU, if possible, even with the added import costs! love it, looks so great - and I'm so happy initiatives like this both keeps poppin up and successfully completes!
I'm always impressed with the updates in the development of this project!
I'd love to see some music software in the future!
(Hopefully will a piano roll instead of a tracker style timeline.)
Still feel like this might end up with the same trajectory the Amiga went, but we'll see.
I do heavily agree with the software call-out at the end. I've been thinking about making either a webzine, magazine, webshow or all of the above to just showcase software wherein one could send in their programs to showcase. I'd kinda go for a Nintendo Power vibe or something similar, but eh.
I'm not sure if it'd be best to do a call-out to other developers out there who have done their own stuff on other platforms, I'd rather try to give the X16 its own identity with its own pantheon of devs as time goes on.
Either way, I do give kudos for this coming along this far, and hope it does the best it can.
Congrats on the launch of computer. You driving with phenomenal attitude and energy. 2 thumbs UP! from a fellow hobbyist who grew up playing and engineering on 8-bit computers.
I love your videos. I was an early adopter of the Commodore 64 I bought when I was 13 at the Computer Swap Shoppe in Lincoln, Nebraska for $200, my life savings at that time!
That guide "Personal Computing on the VIC-20" should be an example of how a well laid out an outstandingly instructional manual should be constructed. Absolutely brilliant for kids and adults.
The irony of saying "this computer literally can't do those things" followed immediately by "people underestimate kids ability to do things" XD
Your own dude made a serial dialup. The machine is absolutely capable of doing the things you said it can't do :)
Man, this is really cool and if I could swing it financially, I’d snag one immediately. But I have to say, I can’t see either one of my kids (7 and 11) bothering to tinker with it in a world where they can write entire games in modern languages using an in-browser learning ide. It’s a noble goal to keep them away from internet dangers, but also maybe a bit unrealistic unless maybe you’re Amish.
Lol !
Kids won't get excited about DIP chips, performance comparisons with C64/Apple2, or the VIC-20 origins of the platform. Nor will they appreciate the IEC bus connector. In fact, exposing kids to X16 might even be harmful to them. Scratch is perfect for younger children because they can start programming and grasp the basics (sequence of commands, conditional statements, loops, AND/OR logic) even before they can type proficiently. All this in a welcoming environment. How can BASIC even compare to that? Older kids will benefit more from modern Python or Pico8.
A few months ago they were positioning it as a game console. The x16 is neat, but they are still trying to find a market bigger than his viewers to care.
@@keyboard_g I really don’t know if such a market is gonna exist. Pretty sure that trying to become the next TI graphing calculator long after the tech is obsolete to everyone but hobbyists is gonna go badly.
@@mikewifakit's not, this basically only appeals to a specific group that grew up in the era of basic, and I'm absolutely happy they get something like this that appeals to them it's amazing, but it will never have mass market applications.
Businesses won't use it cause raspberry pi's are infinitely more useful and cheaper. Education is pointless cause if you're gonna teach kids tech skills (trust me they need them) basic is absolutely pointless in 2023 since it will never be used. Adults going into university literally don't know what file directories are, teach them that over basic. And gamers won't buy if there's any actually good games for it cause there's a free emulator.
I'm your man for 3D! :)
Will you be writing libraries the community can use?
Commodore got me into games, then onto PC games, which is where I learned the basic DOS skills that formed the basis of a career in IT.
Nice work, its good to see a retro project take off like this.
Very interesting study of design choices, implementation realities, and the reactions of the fans. Hopefully some enthusiasts who are also parents will be willing to ante up for the gen 1 machines, because they want to see it be made available to a larger audience. I have been a fan and observer of the personal computer world since high school from '79 to '82. I do have a collection of old systems of my own I want to get up and going some day soon.
This looks great. I’ve pre-ordered for myself and my son. My son is now 17 and been wanting to learn to program for years and did some neat complex stuff with his calculator on his own. Since I just returned to work after a period of unemployment, it would have been best if I could have paid immediately, but it is a pay-when-shipped option. Luckily there was a pay later option so I didn’t have to guess which payment method would be best now.
I did check and the 3rd party case was not available at the time I placed by X16 order. But hopefully that will change soon with the kits shipping in a few months.
I like your optimism, but I would recommend introducing your son to python instead, or Godot if he wants to produce a game. It's better for future prospects.
congrats on the launch. but for education in my opinion a raspberry with linux is way better and way cheaper. also the controller ports on the back isnt the best but i dont know if they would go on the front with the pcb layout. i think this is a nice device for some retro people but i think we all want the reall thing. and this is to modified to be called a real thing. i think it is basicly to powerfull. i fully understand that this machine is way harder to make then most people will understand outside the retro community. and doing second gens doesnt sound the best idea. people would hold out and hope it is more powerfull and then you get in a cycle where it becomes a normal pc. why not do something to create like early x86 for dos. that way more people would get served.
this machine can do all the really old stuff already. and then you would have a machine for just a little newer era of computers.
i know it sounds if i dont like the project but i really do. it is great to see so many people coming togheter and creat it. and it will help preserving the early stages of computing at home. older machines will stop working. parts run out, and having something newer that can still do the old stuff the original way will help massivly with that. and i am just a outsider. it is your project and yyou did do a awesome job on it.
At 11:33 you calculate Y*256 which is basically Y times 2 to the power of 8. In binary computing language may be Assembly you can therefor just shift the bits of variable Y by 8 positions left or just shift left one byte which is much faster than a math multiplication.
Good luck i hope they sell well. Out of my price range right now but i understand the costs. Once again good luck! Its looking absolutely awesome so far! And i genuinely hope it gets to the educational stage.
If someone could or has written a screen reading software for this bad boy, I would love to get one! I think the robust tools for making chiptune is my personal draw to the x16. You can’t get a sound more authentic than that!
screen reading as in vision impairment?
@@CrushedAsian255 yes, a tool to help with vision impairment.
By the way, you've put in a lot of dedication into this project! I hope it goes well for you.
I admire it as a passion project. But I’d rather a Mega65 than this. I’m trying to understand the target audience for this. But as I say, I admire David’s passion for this!
The 8 Bit Guy, my man, strikes again! Well done, and good luck. Amazing you finally did it, I cant believe it.
Being from that era of the 80s where I owned a C64, I remember those fun times. Thats a very promising project, wish you all the success and I will look to buy one at some point.
Looks great but the biggest problem for me is huge cost - for the complete kit (including a case and all the listed accessories) it would set me back £505 ($615) + around £100 ($120) import duty to the UK. As nice as it is there is no way I can justify around £600 ( $735) on this 😢 even without the accessories the cost of the base computer is too high unfortunately. Guess I'll just have to stick with my AGON light 🤷♂
It cost more than an Xbox series S for comparison.
There's a free emulator online
@@jonathaningram8157 that's not a fair comparison though... A more fair comparison would be a console from Analog or something more small batch. Microsoft probably loses money on their consoles anyway, but they are worth a couple trillion, while 8Bit guy is no where close to that
I'm probably totally missing the point of this project, the Agon Light and other modern retros, but I still wonder if the easy answer is to just stick a BASIC on the Raspberry Pi or similar single board computer.
@@PaulioBee For the 8-bit Guy, his purpose was to return to a computer that 1 person could understand every part of. On the Commodore 64, he could directly look at and/or change the value in every memory location. He knew how to code commands to use every function of the processor.
But with modern computers, there is no one who knows all the parts involved. Game developers write code that communicates with a game engine, the game engine communicates with an operating system, the operating system communicates with the hardware, and the coders for each of those levels have to copy-and-paste other people's code that they don't necessarily understand.
So people still use their old computers from the 1980s, but there are no affordable replacement parts. Eventually there will be no replacement parts at any price. That's one reason people are making these new retro computers.
But there's also an element of imagination, comparing these improved designs to the computers from the 80s. It's like people who still make NES game cartridges - the games can't do what Xbox games do, but the idea is "Can you imagine if we'd had this game back in the 80s?" Sure you could just play a game on your phone, but we didn't have smartphones in the 1980s. We did have 8-bit games, and that's what the Commander X16 is. So there's a challenge in achieving more within a limited framework.
For example, look up "8K Atari Pac-Man". Someone made the best version of Pac-Man that can play on a real Atari 2600, to show that their software coding is so much better than the official Atari version of Pac-Man that was so bad back in 1982. It uses the same Atari, but this programmer got amazing results with it.
Instead of making the best 1980s Pac-Man game cartridge 40 years later, the X16 is more like the best 1980s computer made 40 years later.
And there's a community of people, and maybe the people's kids, who will make games and programs for the X16. One guy will show his game, and another guy will be impressed like "I wish I had thought of that for my game, let me go back and use what I learned from him." It means more because these games won't be copied and pasted from the internet, just made in 5 minutes with RPG Maker ready-made graphics packs. If you make your own game for the X16, everyone will know that you made it from scratch within the limitations of the technology.
You can go to the store and buy a blanket, but some people still weave or crochet or quilt their own blankets. Yes they're using obsolete technology in a way, but the result is something you can't get at a store. The difference between the X16 and the Playstation 5 is that anyone can use a sewing machine or an X16 at home - their skill will allow them to possibly make the best blanket or X16 game in the world, better than anyone else's. But making the best PS5 game requires a hundred million dollars.
Owning a hundred-million-dollar blanket factory lets them make thousands of blankets per day, but it doesn't mean they could make 1 single blanket better than my grandmother can make. EA Sports can make a big game for PS5 - but ask them for an X16 game, and that hundred million dollars suddenly can't help them do any better than I might do by myself.
So the X16 is like a guitar for a solo singer-songwriter. 1 man can just use his guitar and make a song that millions of people enjoy. Maybe that will also pay his bills. You could instead use AI to sing whatever lyrics you type, in the style and voice of Frank Sinatra. But if you do it the old-fashioned way, with just a guitar and your real voice, then the people using the easy technology might end up making songs in the style of you, in your voice. You'll never get that using the easy way and the newest tech.
Because in the end, somebody has to be creative before we can have anything new. Geniuses have to work alone, because nobody else around them is a genius. So there need to be tools that geniuses can use alone, that they can shape directly without anyone else's ideas in their way. The more of these are available to children while they're still creative, the more geniuses will have a chance to reach their potential.
I hope there will be a HDMI option at some point.
And it looks awesome so far.
6:27
Very interesting that he wants to market this computer to education. Especially since in his video on the re-released Speak and Spell, he admitted that most kids probably wouldn't be interested in learning about older computer because it's not a novelty anymore. I guess he went back on his previous statement.
I'm not sure if it would have a market for public education, but I think some college computer engineering courses could benefit from having a modern 8-bit computer in an introductory class so people can see the different chipsets needed for a functional computer without needing a microscope and a de-lidded modern chip. It could also help with giving students awareness of older standards that still exist in industry
And?
Yesss! I've been following this Odissey step by step, I'm so happy to see you finally did it!
I wish this was around when I was a kid. I am now 30 years old and wish I knew how to code. I've been following you since the beginning and I can't wait to purchase this to start learning!
If kids are the primary audience, then I don't think this device is going to sell well.
Well the parents would be the ones that buy it and think it's a cool thing for their children.
Congrats, David! You deserve all success on this project!
I see the idea, but a $350 price point seems way too high for an educational computer for kids these days. Back then there was a novelty and excitement to this that helped offset the price I feel.
It'll likely come down in price if demand can manifest. The first batch is going to be rough to own - it's mostly going to appeal to enthusiasts with a similar mindset to David's. When the second or third make their way to market, those enthusiasts will have had time to polish it, build community, and generally turn it into an educational platform.
That said, nobody would bat an eye at spending $350 on setting up a kid with a guitar and some lessons. It's not really different in that regard: you don't buy this for a kid who has shown no interest in understanding their technology. You buy it for the kid who has more fun with their math homework than playing Fortnite.
I was looking for a solution like this when I was a teen. We got Taiwanese clones of the Apple ][+ with no roms and we loved it! The prices were in the $200 to $500 range at a time when a legit base Apple system was $1200.
@@jakykong Never happen, at least in America, as Google already has the education market locked up with every school owning hundreds of Chromebooks
In Britain we have the BBC micro:bit which is a microcontroller, but they try to keep kids away from the computer side of the hardware, starting them with block programming and moving on to Python. The link to the real developer community is buried down at the bottom of the site and not advertised. Similarly to the Chromebook, it's not meant for teaching kids how computers really work. But then, I'm sure the X16 couldn't teach kids anything about multithreaded programming, and the languages which support it are only going to be inefficient on an 8-bit processor. I grew up with 8-bits and moved on to Unix and C which had a very single-threaded model, but getting used to this has hindered my development as a programmer.
@@eekee6034 I started out in the late '70 - early 80's with BASIC and 6502 ASM, before moving on to what would become x86-Land, when my father bought a Leading Edge PC. So while I would be a good fit for a 'X16/retro computer, I honestly can't see a viable market beyond people like myself, the ones who grew up cutting our teeth on this kind of computer. Kids today just don't have the connection to that era of early computing, so they won't have the interest.
This is an incredible machine that you have built. I hope you sell a lot of them. I am amazed.
I'd totally be game to write 3D games on this thing.
Love this project! I only had a TI 99/4a growing up .. right up until my parents finally bought a 486DX! ... Loved playing those old games but especially doing art and writing little programs... For me was mostly transcribing sheet music to play in TI extended basic...
There's so many things could be done with the x16, given its specs.. Voice synth? 3D graphics? Graphing calculators? Maybe much updated "story machine" ?
I love this! Hilariously, the first game I programmed, on an apple 2, was an "ultra violent game" 😂 my teacher was impressed, but wouldn't let me share it 😢.
Holy cow, this looks amazing 🤩 Good job👍🏻
no way! the blank name guy (omg)
"The Commander X16 literally can't do those things!"
Haha, now that you've said that, someone who has already taught his _Commodore_ 16 or 64 to get online to do at least some of those things will be like...
"Agheghhm... hold my joystick!" Or... "64NIC+ has just entered chat." (They'll make a Commander version of that!)😅
Congrats on the project progress! I’ll admit I don’t really understand who this computer is for as I’m more into the history videos you do, but I’m sure there are tons of people ready to buy!
It's just a modern 6502 system. Like if someone rebuilt a retro system with all the benefits of hindsight. So it's for anyone who wants that and can afford that. I'd love one just to play around with but they're too expensive (or maybe I'm just too broke). It'd be cool if it were more affordable but ehh it's their first shot at doing this and they wanted to make it high quality ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
"...depending on the sales of the first generation unit in order to fund the development of the second..."
That is where Retro Games was with the C64 Mini a few years back and people didn't know if they wanted the Mini with the non-functional keyboard.
And now... we have the Maxi, and TheA500 etc.
Cool stuff can happen when creative people have some funding.