Great video! This type of meta-analysis of what various properties excel at is very important and I would love to see a common vernacular arise from this approach to dynamics. One application I think is very relevant is the competition setting. Federswerts, for example, seem to lean toward nimbleness and speed, because in a sport setting, it is only necessary to contact the opponent. Also, because the opponent is likely using a lighter weapon as well, the ability to stop a forceful blow from a heavier weapon is less important. In this way, the competition setting deviates even further from a battlefield style of combat, and practitioners may end up with a style less capable of dealing significant damage, even through basic clothing. The Rowlings training swords are another example of purpose-driven contrast. They are very safe and very fast, but the sheer lightness and "floppiness" of it does not reflect they way an effective weapon would perform or properly teach the way such a weapon needs to be used. I personally prefer the Blackfencer trainer, as it forces me to 'cut' more realistically and to plan my actions, as opposed to relying on reflex or getting touches through the "wiggle-blade" technique that treats the blade like a lightsaber. It is also important to note that changes in weight/dynamics will also affect the muscle development that is necessary for the weapon's proper use, and built by its practice. Thank you again for churning out these videos explaining a very complex topic!
It took all afternoon (on and off) to get through this video. Now it will probably take all evening to go through it again and figure out what I missed. I hadn't considered that a small oval could indicate improved defensive capabilities; I'm sure there are more little nuggets like that in this interview. 8-)
My question is, what would a badly designed sword (that handles terribly) look like in a chart like that? Could you please document some wallhanger Sword-Like Objects for comparison? I was thinking e.g. Andúril from United Cutlery vs. an accurate replica of an Oakeshott type XIIa (or whatever the appropriate comparison would be).
An Anduril wallhanger is excellent, for it's purpose. That is to say, it is an excellent decoration. (the only non-functional sword, that I'd be tempted to get)
You'd see the Center of Mass sitting much further out into the blade, due to lack of tang, the rest of what makes an SLO really bad goes beyond these dynamics (in theory you could have a dynamically sound wallhanger... but the build would then be the issue. This is why it is important to note that agility charts are only a piece of information, not all of it.
That would read as great cutting capacity due to higher effective mass at the center of percussion, ironically on a stainless steel blade with a rat tail tang. I know the balance would be off, but I'm interested in seeing what it does to the pivot points, the oval and the hourglass.
For a wall hanger with an overly heavy blade, or at least one with too little distal taper you will often also have an overly heavy pommel or one that is too light. In these cases you will find a strange placing of pivot points.And overly heavy pommel will shift the forward pivot point outside the blade (sometimes by a large amount) while swords with too small pommels will have the pivot points located close together inside the vibration node. If you compare the graphs of these wall hangers with authentic swords it will be very clear the wall hangers have dynamic properties that are not purposeful.
Hi, I appreciate the interview, and really appreciate the work of Peter Johnson with Albion. I also think that those sword graphs are a good way to communicate - as a descriptive language - between sword fan, or between buyer / sword-seller. I always found that these sword graphs, who show more than one aspect at one, are a great idea, but there is still one MAJOR PROBLEM : There is no LEGEND on the graph !!! Secondly, I really think that it would be a good idea that different people with physic background double check this. I am no physics and could be wrong, but I think there is still some dubious things - and please correct me if I'm wrong, this is not an attack against a great guy, it is just total incomprehension or doubts : 1) why is the left blue line (indicating weight at that point) dissociated from the grip vibration node, when the right blue line is always associated with the blade vibration node ? Were is the logic behind this ? 2) the CENTER of the ELLIPSE is just behind the hilt, and not on a point where the sword is held (this point can vary depending on a sword used one or two handed). 3) actions points and pivots points are a great way to compute the sword dynamics, but should not be showed on the end result of the sword graph, except if they are relevant of where the sword is held (ok, the action points should really be out of the swords where the wrist is, but these are sword graphs, so it should eliminate the variable of the size of the wrist, but at least put an action point - and corresponding pivot point - where the sword is held - center of hand / or center of both hand in case of a sword held two-handed). 4) A sword handled with one hand, and with two hand, doesn't behave the same, and this should be showed on the graph.
And there is also something missing from those graphs : 6) No indication of FLEXIBILITY, and this is invaluable to get a grasp of thrusting performances !
Technically this process has been vetted across at least 3 individuals that I know of. The topic of sword dynamics has been around for nearly a decade at this point, but it has not been as accessible. 1) Vincent would likely know the answer to this. I was certainly surprised to see it, and I haven't wrapped my head around it all yet (been to busy making videos on it) 2) I noticed this change as well. 3) I think what you are getting at here is that this aspect of the chart is acknowledging the sword itself, and not the sword + user... a much more complex thing to measure. 4) It could certainly be denoted. since the calculations are partially based on hilt length it does account to and extent.
6) This goes beyond agility and falls more squarely into blade geometry, material, and tempering. Things that are important valuable information, but are not part of the agility per se.
Nothing stopping it from being added, but it doesn't fall under the agility chart proper. In theory you could build a really complex chart with all the information (and a good legend)
Hi Thomas, thanks for your replies. Points 1 to 6 are really my personal understanding of what is wrong or missing. But I really think that a legend is indispensable to give the graph any scientific vale, so if someone with no previous knowledge of those graphs, they could grasp it by themselves. For point 5) I think the graph give a false impression that the center of percussion is = to the blade vibration node. And for point 6) ok flexibility is not part of agility, but those graphs gives some indicators of cutting performance (ok, without mentioning blade geometry or sharpness), but it would be good to give flexibility as an indicator of thrusting capability (even if point geometry is not mentioned). Point 2) should really be double checked. For my other point, it can just in fact be resumed by : on the final graph, we should see the action points (and corresponding pivot points) only where it matters (under where the hand/hands is/are, and not anywhere else). Sorry for the super long comments, but it is because I think those sword graph have great potential (even if then don't replace handling or cutting tests... and they surely don't replace GOOD VIDEO REVIEWS as YOURS) but as they are now, I find these graphs a bit lacking. Anyway, thanks for interviewing Peter Johnson !
So when using a hand and half bastard sword with one hand and then again with two hands would it be necessary to make a seperate graph and how diferent would those graphs look.?. With that question in mind does fighting style, body type, and/or grip directly affect the sword's dynamic properties?
Fighting style, body type will not affect dynamics. How a sword it gripped, 1 hand vs 2 hands will affect it. What you tend to find is that swords that can be used with 2 hands generally have better dynamics (agility for example) when used with 2 hands.
K he mentions using the waggle tests in museums and that the simplicity of a waggle test doesn't scare curators. This is all very good, but I am really curious as to how he determines the nodes of vibration in museum pieces. Does he strike the antique sword to watch it buzz? I think would probably scare curators, so is there another method to determine vibration nodes?
Mr Peter Johnsson's Talks And Lectures Are Quite Amazing, Never More So Than In His Performance In the Video ''THE VIKING SWORD WHAT IT WAS AND WAS NOT'' Which Should Perhaps Be Re Titled As ''Peter Johnsson EXPOSES HIMSELF ON YOU TUBE'' If There Is Any Justice This Video Will Go 'VIRAL' It Really Is 'A MUST SEE'!!! But Do Not Forget To Read The Newest Comments.
Medieval Review That's disappointing. Please make the suggestion to him, or Peter Johnsson, that they should offer it as a PC application. Thanks for the vids, BTW.
Speaking of surprise, when you get to handle a new kind of sword... I remember looking at some type XIVs (from Albion) and thinking that they looked heavy and sluggish ...until I handled them. They're delightfully nimble blades :)
I'd liken agility graphs, to descriptions of the taste and texture of a food. It doesn't tell you which is best (though it can tell you which are crap), because people have different preferences and you want to eat different things, at different times, but... it lets you know what kind of experience each food gives. I'd say the agility graphs, do much the same.
Im catching the purpose for this now..Like you guys where saying there possibly could be some issues when you have some measurements based on estimations but it shouldn't stop where this could lead...Maybe someone much smarter than me could come up with a standard kit for doing the testing. Maybe even have an electronic vibration testing device of some kind. Just so the measurment wouldn't be just visual and with more delicate swords they would only require slight taps as you move the instrument down the blade and get a real time digital read out
On the point of measures differing from the ones stated by the manufacturer: I don't see that as a real issue. They already display the weight, and that often varies a bit between different examples of the same sword model.
I don't see how you could understand variations of weight, but not similarly slight variations in the agility graph (and I'd expect the differences to be smaller) Also, most people don't actually weigh their swords.
If a swordsmith who casts from molds instead of forging has trouble with his designs when it comes to the functional handling of the finished weapon, and wants to emulate tried and tested antiques using this system, do these diagrams give him insight into the fluctuation of girth and taper and specific points in the mass distribution? It could make improvements relatively simple compared to making several new mold designs until the sword dynamics match the graph.
I don't know that I have the ability to answer this, but I would think if you had the data from museum originals you could certainly lessen your work. I know that the interaction of mass distribution is taking this already complex subject and making it more complex.
18:00 That pitfall existed before. It's just that people will have a more clear indication of the factors and a more clear language, with which to express these flawed notions.
Great video! This type of meta-analysis of what various properties excel at is very important and I would love to see a common vernacular arise from this approach to dynamics.
One application I think is very relevant is the competition setting. Federswerts, for example, seem to lean toward nimbleness and speed, because in a sport setting, it is only necessary to contact the opponent. Also, because the opponent is likely using a lighter weapon as well, the ability to stop a forceful blow from a heavier weapon is less important. In this way, the competition setting deviates even further from a battlefield style of combat, and practitioners may end up with a style less capable of dealing significant damage, even through basic clothing.
The Rowlings training swords are another example of purpose-driven contrast. They are very safe and very fast, but the sheer lightness and "floppiness" of it does not reflect they way an effective weapon would perform or properly teach the way such a weapon needs to be used. I personally prefer the Blackfencer trainer, as it forces me to 'cut' more realistically and to plan my actions, as opposed to relying on reflex or getting touches through the "wiggle-blade" technique that treats the blade like a lightsaber.
It is also important to note that changes in weight/dynamics will also affect the muscle development that is necessary for the weapon's proper use, and built by its practice. Thank you again for churning out these videos explaining a very complex topic!
Can I like this more than once? Thank you so much for the long form interview, what a treat!
Excellent interview. Many thanks to you and your guest.
Thank you
It took all afternoon (on and off) to get through this video. Now it will probably take all evening to go through it again and figure out what I missed. I hadn't considered that a small oval could indicate improved defensive capabilities; I'm sure there are more little nuggets like that in this interview. 8-)
My question is, what would a badly designed sword (that handles terribly) look like in a chart like that? Could you please document some wallhanger Sword-Like Objects for comparison? I was thinking e.g. Andúril from United Cutlery vs. an accurate replica of an Oakeshott type XIIa (or whatever the appropriate comparison would be).
An Anduril wallhanger is excellent, for it's purpose.
That is to say, it is an excellent decoration. (the only non-functional sword, that I'd be tempted to get)
Yeah, I'm not saying it's not a beautiful object. I'm just saying documenting counter examples would be interesting.
You'd see the Center of Mass sitting much further out into the blade, due to lack of tang, the rest of what makes an SLO really bad goes beyond these dynamics (in theory you could have a dynamically sound wallhanger... but the build would then be the issue.
This is why it is important to note that agility charts are only a piece of information, not all of it.
That would read as great cutting capacity due to higher effective mass at the center of percussion, ironically on a stainless steel blade with a rat tail tang. I know the balance would be off, but I'm interested in seeing what it does to the pivot points, the oval and the hourglass.
For a wall hanger with an overly heavy blade, or at least one with too little distal taper you will often also have an overly heavy pommel or one that is too light. In these cases you will find a strange placing of pivot points.And overly heavy pommel will shift the forward pivot point outside the blade (sometimes by a large amount) while swords with too small pommels will have the pivot points located close together inside the vibration node. If you compare the graphs of these wall hangers with authentic swords it will be very clear the wall hangers have dynamic properties that are not purposeful.
I love Peter Johnson, such a great guy
Hi,
I appreciate the interview, and really appreciate the work of Peter Johnson with Albion. I also think that those sword graphs are a good way to communicate - as a descriptive language - between sword fan, or between buyer / sword-seller.
I always found that these sword graphs, who show more than one aspect at one, are a great idea, but there is still one MAJOR PROBLEM : There is no LEGEND on the graph !!!
Secondly, I really think that it would be a good idea that different people with physic background double check this. I am no physics and could be wrong, but I think there is still some dubious things - and please correct me if I'm wrong, this is not an attack against a great guy, it is just total incomprehension or doubts :
1) why is the left blue line (indicating weight at that point) dissociated from the grip vibration node, when the right blue line is always associated with the blade vibration node ? Were is the logic behind this ?
2) the CENTER of the ELLIPSE is just behind the hilt, and not on a point where the sword is held (this point can vary depending on a sword used one or two handed).
3) actions points and pivots points are a great way to compute the sword dynamics, but should not be showed on the end result of the sword graph, except if they are relevant of where the sword is held (ok, the action points should really be out of the swords where the wrist is, but these are sword graphs, so it should eliminate the variable of the size of the wrist, but at least put an action point - and corresponding pivot point - where the sword is held - center of hand / or center of both hand in case of a sword held two-handed).
4) A sword handled with one hand, and with two hand, doesn't behave the same, and this should be showed on the graph.
And there is also something missing from those graphs :
6) No indication of FLEXIBILITY, and this is invaluable to get a grasp of thrusting performances !
Technically this process has been vetted across at least 3 individuals that I know of. The topic of sword dynamics has been around for nearly a decade at this point, but it has not been as accessible.
1) Vincent would likely know the answer to this. I was certainly surprised to see it, and I haven't wrapped my head around it all yet (been to busy making videos on it)
2) I noticed this change as well.
3) I think what you are getting at here is that this aspect of the chart is acknowledging the sword itself, and not the sword + user... a much more complex thing to measure.
4) It could certainly be denoted. since the calculations are partially based on hilt length it does account to and extent.
6) This goes beyond agility and falls more squarely into blade geometry, material, and tempering. Things that are important valuable information, but are not part of the agility per se.
Nothing stopping it from being added, but it doesn't fall under the agility chart proper.
In theory you could build a really complex chart with all the information (and a good legend)
Hi Thomas, thanks for your replies.
Points 1 to 6 are really my personal understanding of what is wrong or missing. But I really think that a legend is indispensable to give the graph any scientific vale, so if someone with no previous knowledge of those graphs, they could grasp it by themselves.
For point 5) I think the graph give a false impression that the center of percussion is = to the blade vibration node.
And for point 6) ok flexibility is not part of agility, but those graphs gives some indicators of cutting performance (ok, without mentioning blade geometry or sharpness), but it would be good to give flexibility as an indicator of thrusting capability (even if point geometry is not mentioned).
Point 2) should really be double checked.
For my other point, it can just in fact be resumed by : on the final graph, we should see the action points (and corresponding pivot points) only where it matters (under where the hand/hands is/are, and not anywhere else).
Sorry for the super long comments, but it is because I think those sword graph have great potential (even if then don't replace handling or cutting tests... and they surely don't replace GOOD VIDEO REVIEWS as YOURS) but as they are now, I find these graphs a bit lacking.
Anyway, thanks for interviewing Peter Johnson !
So when using a hand and half bastard sword with one hand and then again with two hands would it be necessary to make a seperate graph and how diferent would those graphs look.?. With that question in mind does fighting style, body type, and/or grip directly affect the sword's dynamic properties?
Fighting style, body type will not affect dynamics. How a sword it gripped, 1 hand vs 2 hands will affect it. What you tend to find is that swords that can be used with 2 hands generally have better dynamics (agility for example) when used with 2 hands.
K he mentions using the waggle tests in museums and that the simplicity of a waggle test doesn't scare curators. This is all very good, but I am really curious as to how he determines the nodes of vibration in museum pieces. Does he strike the antique sword to watch it buzz? I think would probably scare curators, so is there another method to determine vibration nodes?
k nvm you already addressed this question. Thanks a bunch.
Mr Peter Johnsson's Talks And Lectures Are Quite Amazing, Never More So Than In His Performance In the Video ''THE VIKING SWORD WHAT IT WAS AND WAS NOT'' Which Should Perhaps Be Re Titled As ''Peter Johnsson EXPOSES HIMSELF ON YOU TUBE'' If There Is Any Justice This Video Will Go 'VIRAL' It Really Is 'A MUST SEE'!!! But Do Not Forget To Read The Newest Comments.
Is Vincent Le Chevalier's weapon dynamics computer available as a downloadable desktop app, or is it only web based on the www.subcaelo.net?
Web based,
Medieval Review That's disappointing. Please make the suggestion to him, or Peter Johnsson, that they should offer it as a PC application.
Thanks for the vids, BTW.
Matthew 15.14 Comes Strongly To Mind.
I have that exact same model of pen that Peter is holding here...
Speaking of surprise, when you get to handle a new kind of sword...
I remember looking at some type XIVs (from Albion) and thinking that they looked heavy and sluggish ...until I handled them. They're delightfully nimble blades :)
I'd liken agility graphs, to descriptions of the taste and texture of a food.
It doesn't tell you which is best (though it can tell you which are crap), because people have different preferences and you want to eat different things, at different times, but... it lets you know what kind of experience each food gives. I'd say the agility graphs, do much the same.
Interesting analogy, and I think fairly accurate.
Im catching the purpose for this now..Like you guys where saying there possibly could be some issues when you have some measurements based on estimations but it shouldn't stop where this could lead...Maybe someone much smarter than me could come up with a standard kit for doing the testing. Maybe even have an electronic vibration testing device of some kind. Just so the measurment wouldn't be just visual and with more delicate swords they would only require slight taps as you move the instrument down the blade and get a real time digital read out
On the point of measures differing from the ones stated by the manufacturer: I don't see that as a real issue. They already display the weight, and that often varies a bit between different examples of the same sword model.
But people today understand those variations, but they may not understand variations in agility (while can appear to vary much more wildly.
I don't see how you could understand variations of weight, but not similarly slight variations in the agility graph (and I'd expect the differences to be smaller)
Also, most people don't actually weigh their swords.
If a swordsmith who casts from molds instead of forging has trouble with his designs when it comes to the functional handling of the finished weapon, and wants to emulate tried and tested antiques using this system, do these diagrams give him insight into the fluctuation of girth and taper and specific points in the mass distribution? It could make improvements relatively simple compared to making several new mold designs until the sword dynamics match the graph.
I don't know that I have the ability to answer this, but I would think if you had the data from museum originals you could certainly lessen your work. I know that the interaction of mass distribution is taking this already complex subject and making it more complex.
I didn't say it on r/SWORDS nor r/wma, but you are amazing.
Sorry but why are there only 1,500+ views? How is an interview with Peter Johnsson not more popular than your Random Ramblings videos?
18:00 That pitfall existed before. It's just that people will have a more clear indication of the factors and a more clear language, with which to express these flawed notions.
We need a graph of pommel dynamics.
That sounds dangerous, someone might get their eye ended rightly.