My easy solution to adding the “X-Files feel” into Gatewalkers is to use the adventure series from Dark Archive as side quests. These are fun one-off adventures that have a strong thematic tie
A little late to the party, but I just wanted to throw in my two bits. Again, as always, Dave gives a fair and balanced presentation that is not only intriguing but as guidance. I appreciate your comments and they're very helpful in guiding new, and old, GM's towards adventure paths. Well done!
Great video! I am currently running the end of this adventure and here's my two cents: While part of me would have liked my players to have had more chances to purchase, we just got into book 3 and everyone actually survived just fine - despite routing a couple of encounters and therefor missing a bit of gear. I only had to make two minor changes to help with this: 1) Any time they received healing items, I doubled the quantity. And 2) Any time they encountered groups of more than a couple of people, I allowed "bartering" up to a certain level. For example: When the players encountered/saved the Reclaimers in Book 2 and made it back to their camp, the 7th level players were able to trade with the reclaimer npcs for common items up to 5th level [Level minus 2]. Given that most groups were pretty generous with rations, they pretty much had all the bases covered. I definitely agree with the filler in book 2. My players routed multiple combats and still ended up being level 8 before the final fight that was meant to get them to that level. Great fights, sure, but often times it felt like combat for the sake of combat.
Running it now, I added a bunch more investigation into it. It was pretty easy to add and I would suggest mixing normal and paranormal investigation. As for the second book...i made the girl 7 and her entire group was lost. She drops into confusing bouts of tongues that the players need to decipher...this drives the story line to gather macguffins to help her.
See, I really like Gatewalkers and I think I get why I disagree with your issues. Firstly I tend to see "filler" as world building. In running AV I have found that my players tend to lose the bigger picture, just because everything is so concentrated Secondly I do find that anytime you run a non combat subsystem it's to focus roleplay. Frequently combats can be retreated from but very rarely lost and actually progress the story. Subsystems, like investigation, players generally have to win. Thematically if the players make no progress on solving an investigation, it's the same as them being unable to beat a BBEG. You just won't finish the story. And lastly player agency as a whole is something that unless you're an incredibly talented GM willing to put in a ton of work, if you're running any AP there's just not going to be as much as people want. They're all on rails, that's a good thing. Sometimes those rails let you carve a broader path, but you're still in the designated area.
It's fairly frustrating reading through the AP, because it would've been pretty easy to give the PCs more agency rather than a bunch of things happening TO them. And even if you actually wanted pulp picaresque adventure magazine D&D, rather than occult investigation D&D, it would still just make it... better. First off, have Kaneepo be at least somewhat aware of Osoyo, due to a psychic bond of resenting their elven captors. Have Osoyo be behind Kaneepo getting out, so that Kaneepo actually connects to the adventure instead of being a random coincidental aside who ends up not mattering. And this means Kaneepo, and/or their ritual chamber and stuff, can give clues pointing the PCs to the North Pole. Then you can have *the PCs* contact Sakuachi instead of an astronomer NPC just telling them about her, again fairly coincidentally, while another NPC just tells them about Osoyo, coincidentally. Have them delve through an alien elven library on this strange world for further clues about this symbol on their key and "the blackfrost dreaming" Kaneepo mentions or whatever. And/or have to go seek out a loopy hermit elder to find out more about ancient myths. Have an NPC mention vaguely recognizing the symbol from the distant past or something if they need a nudge. But don't just have some rando come up and loredump everything at them. That feels so cheap and unearned. And i mean, if they fail to get the clues you can have Sakuachi reach out through the psychic telescope eventually, just make it harder on 'em. Or don't. Whatever works for you. It's not like they *had* to make it so arbitrary how the NPCs randomly get infodumped on or else the AP would go off the rails. They could've at least *tried* to give the PCs a chance to... participate in the story. I like the idea of de-aging Sakuachi. It makes her not having a lot to contribute make sense, rather than the PCs maybe feeling resentful of how useless she's being. And now that it's the PCs contacting *her* instead of the other way around, they won't feel so... dragged along for the ride. Plus hopefully they care about protecting her more as a child. Also you can tweak things so that her helping the PCs get back to Golarion required her to put herself at risk, rather than that just... already happening anyway, so the PCs maybe feel kinda indebted to her and are more interested in helping her since she risked her life to help them. And honestly, if PCs are getting too bugged by following Sakuachi around... you can kill her off. The adventure even plans for her death by saying her spirit guide hitches a ride with a PC. You can even do it at the end of book 2 with the ritual, in dramatic fashion, and then it's the PCs who see its effects. These aren't the hardest things to tweak but... at that point what am i paying you for, Paizo? The answer, for me at least, is just... the Foundry module. The maps, tokens, and encounters.
From the Adventure Paths I know of and how they sometimes play out they can be a bit weird. I do love these adventures don't get me wrong! But sometimes the expectation of them and the reality of them can be a bit divorced. Either they can run long and the writers seem to run short on plot for gaps of the experience or an experience starts and then shifts direction. The big one I felt this in was Extinction Curse, where the Adventuring and the Circus felt incredibly divorced from each other.
My players and I stopped Extinction Curse for the same reason. We thought we would be playing "The Circus Adventure", and that's not at all what we got (after Book 2).
@@HowItsPlayed My Extinction Curse game ended at the end of Book 2, I was clashing with one of the players who was a bad influence on another, and my job made it hard to prep appropriately. Also had a hard time with the circus rules which felt very half baked. In short, it got to the point where the campaign was feeling more like a chore, so I ended it where it logically made sense. That said, were I to run it again, I know what plot elements I'd change.
All Paizo APs (and, to be fair, most homebrew campaigns I've played/ran) tend towards this "every adventure is its own vignette"-feeling; even the ones where the initial plan is well laid-out and someone coordinates between the various book-writers. They can still see-saw between a myriad genres and tones. I think this is due to a few factors: a) the static equilibrium for most d20 fantasy games is _the kitchen sink_ - play long enough, and that's what they all end up feeling like; b) year-long campaigns are not easy to keep on-theme - unless the theme is very broad (e.g. "political intrigue"), both the players and the GM will crave a change of pace/scenery at regular intervals. When done correctly, this can result in a diverse series of adventures with a strong thematic throughline. By all accounts, Gatewalkers is what you get when it's done a bit poorly.
прошу прощение но буду писать на удобном для себя языке, я думаю переводчик с легкостью передаст суть моих мыслей. Я провел две книги и сейчас веду третью книгу. Это приключение я позиционирую как "Мистическое путешествие". Каждый уровень это новая локация, хранящая свои тайны и загадки. С обилием ошеломляющих сюжетных поворотов. Я взял медленный темп игры и на один уровень у меня уходит 4-5 игр, я добавляю свой контент что бы прийти к нормальной 3 актовой структуре. Презентация локации, Развитее конфликта, Финал конфликта. В своем вождении я использовал несколько решений, которые на мой взгляд сделали игру лучше. 1)Старт игры начинается с посещения игроками площади в городе и конфликта с друидами. Я решил что это плохо. При моем вождении герои получили квест "проверить арки", но после этого, по дороге в город на них напали феи, которые служат Болану. Герои победили фей, получили уважение от хороших друидов и стали выполнять для них квесты, что позволило Героям пойти к настоящим аркам. Так я получил более классический старт. 2)Второй хук, был в 5 главе, Озеро. Попадая на замерший остров, они попали в мистическое место из которого нет выхода. И там было много, и очень много общения с Мертвецами и проверки теории о способе покинуть место. Мой остров, это остров нежити желающий вернуться в мир живых. Что бы вернуться герои стали призраками, по канону. 3)В результате прибывания на острове герои научились подчинять себе людей, так же как правительница Звездной стражи. И город Эгеде начал превозносить героев как Миссий. Что жутко напугало игроков, тк они понимали что тут может случиться тоже самое что и в Звездной страже, но они будут виновны. Я перечислил лишь самые значимые модификации, в свою игру я так же включал приключения из общества следопытов и Темного архива. и раскрывали арки героев.
О сакуачи. Да сакуачи это главный герой, а PC это "волшебные помощники". Но я создал у игроков необходимость быть рядом с сакуачи: 1)В моем ведении она стала Добрая, Не уверенная в себе, наивная. по детски юнная. От чего ее хотелось защищать. 2)Сакуачи спасала игроков от их способности подчинять себе людей и была маяком надежды. 3)В конце 7главы, я заменил битвы в храмах на трогательное прощание с игроками и принесением себя в жертву богу Руун.
Thanks for answering my question. Having seen your overviews, I agree with your points and will be picking up Sky Kings Tomb as my group's first foray into P2e!
There's no places for them to get gear? Or there's no time? My group is raiding the treehouse now. They are convinced they can make it through without a rest. That's about to change. I just wanted to see what adjustments I might need to make.
I think once players enter the First World, they won't be in a settlement where they can trade until they reach Egede in Chapter 3 of Book 2. And then they will reach Lepidstadt at the start of Book 3, and I think that may be their last settlement for the rest of the AP.
I really dislike book two overall, as it breaks the basic piece of advice you hear all GMs say: The PCs are the protagonists of the campaign. Keep the focus on them. It also breaks the promises (to use Sanderson's term) that it sets up in book one. What possible reason does the party have to Escort Sakuachi and her adventuring party? I'm GMing this AP, but if I was a player I would feel betrayed when I got to book two, I would not be excited about the rest of the AP. I'm going to give books 2 and 3, as well as Sakuachi the Alexandrian Remix-treatment.
Well, you just turned me off from Gatewalkers. And, I am glad you did. I couldn't stand GM N(sert)PCs that were the only way to progress and solve the story when i was a player. I will not be subjecting my players to that.
My easy solution to adding the “X-Files feel” into Gatewalkers is to use the adventure series from Dark Archive as side quests. These are fun one-off adventures that have a strong thematic tie
Good idea!
A little late to the party, but I just wanted to throw in my two bits. Again, as always, Dave gives a fair and balanced presentation that is not only intriguing but as guidance. I appreciate your comments and they're very helpful in guiding new, and old, GM's towards adventure paths. Well done!
Thanks! 😃
Great video! I am currently running the end of this adventure and here's my two cents:
While part of me would have liked my players to have had more chances to purchase, we just got into book 3 and everyone actually survived just fine - despite routing a couple of encounters and therefor missing a bit of gear. I only had to make two minor changes to help with this: 1) Any time they received healing items, I doubled the quantity. And 2) Any time they encountered groups of more than a couple of people, I allowed "bartering" up to a certain level. For example: When the players encountered/saved the Reclaimers in Book 2 and made it back to their camp, the 7th level players were able to trade with the reclaimer npcs for common items up to 5th level [Level minus 2]. Given that most groups were pretty generous with rations, they pretty much had all the bases covered.
I definitely agree with the filler in book 2. My players routed multiple combats and still ended up being level 8 before the final fight that was meant to get them to that level. Great fights, sure, but often times it felt like combat for the sake of combat.
Running it now, I added a bunch more investigation into it. It was pretty easy to add and I would suggest mixing normal and paranormal investigation. As for the second book...i made the girl 7 and her entire group was lost. She drops into confusing bouts of tongues that the players need to decipher...this drives the story line to gather macguffins to help her.
See, I really like Gatewalkers and I think I get why I disagree with your issues.
Firstly I tend to see "filler" as world building. In running AV I have found that my players tend to lose the bigger picture, just because everything is so concentrated
Secondly I do find that anytime you run a non combat subsystem it's to focus roleplay. Frequently combats can be retreated from but very rarely lost and actually progress the story. Subsystems, like investigation, players generally have to win. Thematically if the players make no progress on solving an investigation, it's the same as them being unable to beat a BBEG. You just won't finish the story.
And lastly player agency as a whole is something that unless you're an incredibly talented GM willing to put in a ton of work, if you're running any AP there's just not going to be as much as people want. They're all on rails, that's a good thing. Sometimes those rails let you carve a broader path, but you're still in the designated area.
It's fairly frustrating reading through the AP, because it would've been pretty easy to give the PCs more agency rather than a bunch of things happening TO them. And even if you actually wanted pulp picaresque adventure magazine D&D, rather than occult investigation D&D, it would still just make it... better.
First off, have Kaneepo be at least somewhat aware of Osoyo, due to a psychic bond of resenting their elven captors. Have Osoyo be behind Kaneepo getting out, so that Kaneepo actually connects to the adventure instead of being a random coincidental aside who ends up not mattering. And this means Kaneepo, and/or their ritual chamber and stuff, can give clues pointing the PCs to the North Pole.
Then you can have *the PCs* contact Sakuachi instead of an astronomer NPC just telling them about her, again fairly coincidentally, while another NPC just tells them about Osoyo, coincidentally. Have them delve through an alien elven library on this strange world for further clues about this symbol on their key and "the blackfrost dreaming" Kaneepo mentions or whatever. And/or have to go seek out a loopy hermit elder to find out more about ancient myths. Have an NPC mention vaguely recognizing the symbol from the distant past or something if they need a nudge. But don't just have some rando come up and loredump everything at them. That feels so cheap and unearned.
And i mean, if they fail to get the clues you can have Sakuachi reach out through the psychic telescope eventually, just make it harder on 'em. Or don't. Whatever works for you. It's not like they *had* to make it so arbitrary how the NPCs randomly get infodumped on or else the AP would go off the rails. They could've at least *tried* to give the PCs a chance to... participate in the story.
I like the idea of de-aging Sakuachi. It makes her not having a lot to contribute make sense, rather than the PCs maybe feeling resentful of how useless she's being. And now that it's the PCs contacting *her* instead of the other way around, they won't feel so... dragged along for the ride. Plus hopefully they care about protecting her more as a child. Also you can tweak things so that her helping the PCs get back to Golarion required her to put herself at risk, rather than that just... already happening anyway, so the PCs maybe feel kinda indebted to her and are more interested in helping her since she risked her life to help them.
And honestly, if PCs are getting too bugged by following Sakuachi around... you can kill her off. The adventure even plans for her death by saying her spirit guide hitches a ride with a PC. You can even do it at the end of book 2 with the ritual, in dramatic fashion, and then it's the PCs who see its effects.
These aren't the hardest things to tweak but... at that point what am i paying you for, Paizo? The answer, for me at least, is just... the Foundry module. The maps, tokens, and encounters.
From the Adventure Paths I know of and how they sometimes play out they can be a bit weird. I do love these adventures don't get me wrong! But sometimes the expectation of them and the reality of them can be a bit divorced. Either they can run long and the writers seem to run short on plot for gaps of the experience or an experience starts and then shifts direction. The big one I felt this in was Extinction Curse, where the Adventuring and the Circus felt incredibly divorced from each other.
My players and I stopped Extinction Curse for the same reason. We thought we would be playing "The Circus Adventure", and that's not at all what we got (after Book 2).
@@HowItsPlayed My Extinction Curse game ended at the end of Book 2, I was clashing with one of the players who was a bad influence on another, and my job made it hard to prep appropriately. Also had a hard time with the circus rules which felt very half baked. In short, it got to the point where the campaign was feeling more like a chore, so I ended it where it logically made sense. That said, were I to run it again, I know what plot elements I'd change.
I'm about 8-10 pages deep into a total rewrite of book 2 for (mostly) the reasons you presented. It's just a very, very poor book.
All Paizo APs (and, to be fair, most homebrew campaigns I've played/ran) tend towards this "every adventure is its own vignette"-feeling; even the ones where the initial plan is well laid-out and someone coordinates between the various book-writers. They can still see-saw between a myriad genres and tones. I think this is due to a few factors: a) the static equilibrium for most d20 fantasy games is _the kitchen sink_ - play long enough, and that's what they all end up feeling like; b) year-long campaigns are not easy to keep on-theme - unless the theme is very broad (e.g. "political intrigue"), both the players and the GM will crave a change of pace/scenery at regular intervals. When done correctly, this can result in a diverse series of adventures with a strong thematic throughline. By all accounts, Gatewalkers is what you get when it's done a bit poorly.
прошу прощение но буду писать на удобном для себя языке, я думаю переводчик с легкостью передаст суть моих мыслей.
Я провел две книги и сейчас веду третью книгу. Это приключение я позиционирую как "Мистическое путешествие". Каждый уровень это новая локация, хранящая свои тайны и загадки. С обилием ошеломляющих сюжетных поворотов.
Я взял медленный темп игры и на один уровень у меня уходит 4-5 игр, я добавляю свой контент что бы прийти к нормальной 3 актовой структуре. Презентация локации, Развитее конфликта, Финал конфликта.
В своем вождении я использовал несколько решений, которые на мой взгляд сделали игру лучше.
1)Старт игры начинается с посещения игроками площади в городе и конфликта с друидами. Я решил что это плохо. При моем вождении герои получили квест "проверить арки", но после этого, по дороге в город на них напали феи, которые служат Болану. Герои победили фей, получили уважение от хороших друидов и стали выполнять для них квесты, что позволило Героям пойти к настоящим аркам. Так я получил более классический старт.
2)Второй хук, был в 5 главе, Озеро. Попадая на замерший остров, они попали в мистическое место из которого нет выхода. И там было много, и очень много общения с Мертвецами и проверки теории о способе покинуть место. Мой остров, это остров нежити желающий вернуться в мир живых. Что бы вернуться герои стали призраками, по канону.
3)В результате прибывания на острове герои научились подчинять себе людей, так же как правительница Звездной стражи. И город Эгеде начал превозносить героев как Миссий. Что жутко напугало игроков, тк они понимали что тут может случиться тоже самое что и в Звездной страже, но они будут виновны.
Я перечислил лишь самые значимые модификации, в свою игру я так же включал приключения из общества следопытов и Темного архива. и раскрывали арки героев.
О сакуачи. Да сакуачи это главный герой, а PC это "волшебные помощники". Но я создал у игроков необходимость быть рядом с сакуачи: 1)В моем ведении она стала Добрая, Не уверенная в себе, наивная. по детски юнная. От чего ее хотелось защищать. 2)Сакуачи спасала игроков от их способности подчинять себе людей и была маяком надежды. 3)В конце 7главы, я заменил битвы в храмах на трогательное прощание с игроками и принесением себя в жертву богу Руун.
Thanks for answering my question. Having seen your overviews, I agree with your points and will be picking up Sky Kings Tomb as my group's first foray into P2e!
Thanks for the overview - I really appreciate you taking the time to do these in depth reviews. 🙂
The trip to Castrovel felt like someone went, "I don't know how to write paranormal investigation! What's cool enough to distract from that?"
There's no places for them to get gear? Or there's no time? My group is raiding the treehouse now. They are convinced they can make it through without a rest. That's about to change. I just wanted to see what adjustments I might need to make.
I think once players enter the First World, they won't be in a settlement where they can trade until they reach Egede in Chapter 3 of Book 2. And then they will reach Lepidstadt at the start of Book 3, and I think that may be their last settlement for the rest of the AP.
@@HowItsPlayed oh boy. Might have to add some loot then. I'll also look at abp like you suggested
Yeah chapter 2 of gatewalkers was trash
I really dislike book two overall, as it breaks the basic piece of advice you hear all GMs say: The PCs are the protagonists of the campaign. Keep the focus on them. It also breaks the promises (to use Sanderson's term) that it sets up in book one. What possible reason does the party have to Escort Sakuachi and her adventuring party?
I'm GMing this AP, but if I was a player I would feel betrayed when I got to book two, I would not be excited about the rest of the AP.
I'm going to give books 2 and 3, as well as Sakuachi the Alexandrian Remix-treatment.
Well, you just turned me off from Gatewalkers. And, I am glad you did.
I couldn't stand GM N(sert)PCs that were the only way to progress and solve the story when i was a player. I will not be subjecting my players to that.
I hear Season of Ghosts has been very good so far.