To address the whole "SA2 isn't a platformer" to the game's credit the Omochao tutorial describes the Sonic/Shadow stages as "High Speed 3D Action Games" which is a more fitting description.
While a lot of things you said rustled my jimmies (considering this is my favourite game) I still thoroughly enjoyed the video. Excited to see your perspective on the story.
Thank you. A lot of people can get very defensive when someone criticizes something they like, so I'm glad you enjoyed it anyway. The story video should be interesting. I have a lot to say, good and bad.
@@Pariah6950 You really brought a lot of fair criticism, there some stuff that I disagree on but a lot of it comes back to taste, I was gonna comment properly on my thoughts on your videos but I'm currently watching this at work so I can't really do so atm but I'm enjoying listening to your videos even though I love the adventure series with 2 being my favorite
@@Pariah6950 I just disagree with ur take on the bounce bracelet and how it's a simple binary upgrade sure in the levels they don't ask u to use it much when just completing the level in mission 1 but u as the player can use it in so many ways to break the game like even more than the spindash jump ever did in sa1. Like breaking gravity it's a great tool to get u to the ground quickly it takes in to ur account the momentum when bouncing up a wall getting more height. It's good for chaining points together (ik u don't care about that in particular) but that upgrade alone has 4 different purposes for one simple move. The alteration of gravity to get extreme distance and potentially make u potentially even run on walls ur not supposed too, are really fun and increase the skill ceiling tremendously. The roll attack by itself in the base game isn't that interesting ill admit, like sure u can use it increase ur jump speed without having to charge a spindash and jump and you can attacked sheilded enemies while the guard is up. But with the moD Where u maintain your speed, it turns out to be a great tool for maintaining ur speed through a level. But u don't want to use it all the time cuz u can't change ur direction while doing it but you still will gain/maintain speed, even more speed than you would with spam dashing. I also think the way you play the game either when ur time attacking or whatever seems not right like in green forest instead of running forward why dont u grind on the rails that are on the top that are more difficult to stay on but gets u through the section slightly faster and gives u a really high point bonus a clear as day example where the score encourages speed. In sky rail why aren't you spindash jumping from one pumpkin to the next which gives u a massive short cut that was designed by the developers. Pyramid cave is an example where if u just try to complete the level as quickly as possible while ignoring the hoops it just boils down to u at least in the first part just stearing ur way down the corridor which is a lot less interesting to me than doing cool parkour and jumping through hoops and running through walls and light speed dashing and chaning all these moves together its just really fun. Also metal harbour andwhite jungle are the only examples I can think of where there's less platforming in them if u don't count (homing attack chains) as at least a platforming tool I do. Metal harbour and white jungle have lots of optional platforming sequences that u would usually skip over because their usually slower than light speed dashing or taking a different path in hard mode tho they restrict ur routes more and add more platforming overall to the gameplay which are usually more difficult too. City escape has way more platforming in it that u didn't mention because u took different routes. The bottom paths usually had more platforming than the upper paths. Anyways hard mode is my preferred way of playing this game because it just brings out the strengths of each gameplay style more than with the (admittedly more simpler) design of the regular stages. I think you should set the mod loader to play every stage in hard mode on ur next play through and try to play the game in a different way to see if you can see how people like me enjoy the gameplay of the game a lot. Hard mode just makes everything you do more interesting.
@@elibonham4388This why this very game is my favorite to score attack and I return to it more than the rest, I love getting over 20000 Score in Treasure Hunting stages and Speed stages. All I’m saying is that you explained what I do in the Speed stages and it made me appreciate the game,e more.
I see where you're coming from regarding the whole "lack of platforming" thing but I can't help but find it a bit pedantic. You can take any platformer or any game really and boil it down to "press X button here and X button there", though I will grant you that the level design isn't as flexible as a lot of other 3D platformers; but I find mastering fast paced levels like the ones in SA2 immensely satisfying and I want to see more games with this style of play (ideally with more branching paths and flexibility). I also find the score based ranking system to be more engaging than going purely for speed. Different strokes I guess. Lastly I've really enjoyed binging your sonic videos so far and appreciate your perspective for being different than a lot out there.
About Green Hill being the reward for A ranking the emblems, it was pretty cool at the time. Green Hill hadn’t been ran to the ground at that point so it was a really cool novelty.
Pretty good video, even though SA2 is my favorite game and I was inevitably feeling like an arrow was piercing my heart in some parts of the video, it's still interesting to watch these kinds of videos, it makes us feel more open-minded and re-think about our thoughts, especially since you brought some points that I've never seem people talk about. And oh boy I do have my points to share just as you did, so yeah, I'm totally aware this comment is absolutely gigantic :) I don't feel like the ranking system requiring you to score alongside going fast really makes the game slowdown as you said, I actually think totally the opposite of what you've said, just going fast is not what I find the most fun in Sonic games, SA1 has tons of secrets item boxes, hidden 1-ups, chains of enemies all over the levels and much more alternate paths, but does that really matters? What will you get if you collect 20 rings or 1-up or doing a cool trick and skip a section? Literally nothing, so at the end of the day I end up feeling SA1 feels MORE linear than SA2 because I'm literally skipping everything since there is really no incentive to do exploration, skipping enemies, skipping item boxes and just spam-dashing all the way through the level, I don't find this to be as fun as collecting stuff and destroying enemies *alongside* being fast, which is exactly what SA2 incentivizes, it gives actual value to this level design that SA1 never gave to me. Take that section of Pyramid Cave for example, where you flip the hourglass and have to reach the door at the end of the long hallway before it closes, if you go for time attack you literally just hold forward and that's it, you passed that section as fast as possible, but now try to jump through the arches doing Action Link combos, executing the light dash in the air, collect two Item Boxes at the wall, hit the spring which will make you run on the wall and hit another spring that will send you back to the floor passing through more arches, then going through the door just in time and receiving tons of points at the end. What I understood from the video is that if the game incentivizes the player to have a lower time at the end, It's a generally bad thing, so I genuinely ask you if doing the "slower/difficult" route mentioned is really not fun for you, of course I know "fun" is subjective and no one can say how others feel (that's exactly why I'm asking), but for me what makes something fast really satisfactory is what I have to do *while* being fast, if I'm doing tons of actions overcoming a much more difficult obstacle I'll feel much more satisfied in completing it than if I just held forward just for the sake of time attacking, I would really love If SA1 had the same Ranking system because it would make the so-praised level design of it actually meaningful. That's a very personal thing, but I don't really care about strict duration of a level in a Sonic-style game, if I'm doing actions and overcoming obstacles in a fast-paced basic structure, I'll never feel like the game is forcing me to slowdown at all, even though it really looks weird a Sonic game where you basically have to take the longer route to be better, I think developers came with that concept by just testing and realized how fun it is just as I did despite how counter-intuitive it might sound for a Sonic game and I totally would prefer this type of ranking system of "Score + Time" over just "Time". Now for Treasure Hunting. I do believe the radar being limited to one piece at a time in SA2 makes sense and It's apart of how SA2 stages are designed, although this does not mean Treasure Hunting should only be like that as if it were a "magical formula", what I will say is that SA2's makes sense and It was very misunderstood. I believe the change was basically made to give a much more focused gameplay in combination with the hint system in which will give a direction to where the player should go to find THAT treasure as fast as possible. Making so the Rank system works as stablished, the focus is not simply pass through each area of the stage because the stage itself is a playground to traverse, what really matters is how you traverse through the areas as fast as possible based on how well you explore and understand the stage basic structure. The limited radar is important for that because it gives a fair score based on how fast you find THAT location using THOSE hints made specifically for THAT piece, which makes it possible to decide your final Rank in a much more complex and consistent way just like the other two playstyles (Action Race is the Action Link with tricks all over the level, Shooting is the Lock-On combos and Treasure Hunting is the Rank-Up points for each treasure), if it were the what I call "free radar" from SA1, it wouldn't be possible to precisely know if that piece you found has something to do with the hint you saw and so give a fair score based on how good the player was in deducing where to go and how fast it were the same way the limited radar does. More important than that, It's not just about "clear each area of the level until you find three treasures", it's a Decision Making game and I really appreciate you realized that by saying the player can either not use hints and take longer to find the piece or use some hints and find much quickly, I find to be really odd that in your example of Pumpkin Hill you seemed to have totally forgot about that and kept not using hints despite taking a long time to find. This is also important if you consider how the Multiplayer mode works, both players have the radar of the same one treasure and they have to race to see who reach THAT treasure as fast as possible, which ends up making the competition much fiercer and personal than as if players were completely isolated searching for different treasures with the free radar. The most used argument against the limited radar is about having to go to the same areas again. I'm pretty sure everyone already noticed that a lot of Action Race/Shooting stages (if not all) repeats segments in the same level (I think you even mentioned that), now If it were the exact same then it would really be repetitive since it's a linear path, so they always have different objects and enemies positioned, but Treasure Hunting is not a linear path, most of the time even when retuning to areas again you won't do the same sequence of actions, you might enter through another route or explore more of that area that you didn't explore before, if the problem is that it's visually not interesting and does not give variety, then where are the people complaining about Green Forest repeating it's corridors all over the level? The entire stage looks visually about the same so I don't think that's the REAL problem people have when going through the same areas in Treasure Hunting. From what I noticed, the problem is just that... SA1 exists... the way that game challenges the player through it's gameplay IS different than how SA2 challenges, but It's just so simple to compare one game to another as if it were the exact same thing when It's not, while SA1 is a much simpler game of passing through the stage collecting the emeralds relying on a hot and cold mechanic, SA2 is a much more focused decision making exploration game that rewards the player for quick thinking and how fast it goes to point A to B, which really tests the player's understanding of the level structure. There is this general thought players have while playing like "if it were SA1's radar I could have just grabbed that one piece right away", but that's never the intention of the game, what matters is NOT the sole action of collecting that piece while being in that area, but *how fast* you traverse through the areas and reach that piece while using the hints and radar as a support, which the game will then reward with the respective Rank-Up points. It is much easier to understand in case you have played Nights Into Dreams, in the same level there are basically 4 sections where in each one you repeat the same process of "collecting 20 blue spheres, going to the Ideya thing and go back all the way to the beginning, in which you'll be graded for that section", the only difference is that while Nights has a pre-determined path for each of the 4 sections, in Treasure Hunting the player freely chooses which path to take for each of the 3 sections. When you've said about having to scan the level once, then re-scan and re-scan again, that's a choice from the player with the Decision Making thing I mentioned earlier, not some kind of rule, not only that but all treasures are always spread out from each other, so for example If you find an emerald in Church Mountain, for the 2nd piece you won't have to go there, if you've found the 2nd piece in Pumpkin Mountain, the chances are high that you won't have to go to Church and Pumpkin Mountain for the 3rd piece. I think I covered up most of what I wanted to talk about, believe it or not ,I had to make this comment shorter because it was surpassing the 10,000 chars limit, so I had to remove my comments on stage size, replay value and other stuff. This isn't supposed to be any kind of hatred pissed-off response at all and I'm sorry if it sounded like that, I love this game and I don't mind seeing different points of view, it just helps to accumulate knowledge, I wrote this comment one day after I watched the video, so if there is something I pointed out that you already explained, feel free to reply, I'm totally open for discussion! Thanks for reading if you did so.
You make a lot of good points. This didn't sound like hate at all. And I agree with a number of things you say. For me, pure time attack is what I enjoy most about Sonic. I'm okay with SA1's stages having a lot of meaningless side areas, because the geometry of the level design still allows for a lot of open-ended player pathing. You say the levels end up more linear, which kind of true once you have a route figured out. But there's so much room for creativity and experimentation to figure out what a fast route is. And that's really fun to me. That is something SA2 is definitely light on. (And with the Emblem Challenge mod for SA1, there can be an incentive to explore.) Going for the Pyramid Cave hoops is one of the few instances where I find going for score to be more fun than going for time. That part is really cool. But as I said, most of the time the things you do for score are homing attack chains, light speed dashes, etc. Very simplistic things that aren't very interesting. My issue is more about how that contradicts the typical Sonic design of going for a good time. For example, if getting those hoops would open a door to a different path that was faster and more difficult, I think that would be great. Marry score and time together rather than having them conflict. Or like how in Sonic 3, it would sometimes be worth it to go out of your way to get a shield to get through a section faster or take certain shortcuts you can't otherwise. The boost games do that kind of thing pretty well. Speed and score are one and the same. I did want to mention how the SA1 radar does totally break the scoring system, and how the pieces are spread out in specific ways. But I cut those for time. The Pumpkin Hill example was on me. I was thinking that I'd already spent so long that if I checked a monitor, I'd get an even worse score. It was a bad decision. That's fine and part of the game. But you can't deny that the fact that that sort of thing can happen to a player at all can definitely lead to frustration, especially first time players. The main problem for me is I just don't find the core gameplay to be that fun. It's okay, but not something I want to do very much. The movement mechanics are not very interesting, nor the level design. So the SA1 radar speeding up the process makes it more enjoyable for me, and I think most players who don't care about their rank. I was thinking, it would be pretty sick if they gave Sonic treasure hunting actually. Then you could use spindash jumps and stuff for all kinds of interesting pathing to get from one place to another. I think that would be more fun. I have played Nights. And I don't like it precisely because of the way it's designed around it's rank system. But to each their own. Thanks for such and in-depth comment. I'm glad you at least found the video interesting.
@@Pariah6950 Yep, I can definitely see you prefer much more freeform style of gameplay, for me I don't really find to be something really *necessary* for a Sonic game to work, so much so that games like Heroes followed SA2's simpler design, not only because it's much easier to develop linear path with straightforward obstacles like somersaulting, homing attack enemies, light dash, etc; but can lead to a much more consistent experience and the lack of freeform exploration certainly doesn't seem to have been that important for the average player because reviews at the time and even nowadays barely comment on the aspects you criticized from Action Race, which is something I find interesting in your video that differentiate from others. There were a lots of reviews that heavily criticized the "slow" platforming of Lost World and praised the more linear high-speed sections like Speed Highway corridors, which is why they pretty much ditched the "platforming" aspect you mentioned for SA2, people weren't really making use of the freeform platforming mechanics of skipping large sections with spindash and such, so why bother creating something that complex? Especially when you can just create straightforward corridors with obstacles that are easy to understand what to do, basically the thing you criticized where you press some buttons to somersault, attack chains of enemies and continue speeding forward. Which is much easier to digest. The fact that you said that SA2 is not really a platformer makes even more sense when you consider the playstyle is called "Action Race", which is a name that matches perfectly with what you described, you pretty much follow a path and overcome clear obstacles with simple actions. And when thinking about that I understand why they implemented moves like somersault or bounce, if they weren't gonna make much use of physics, then the gameplay would be pretty much just "jump" all the time, so they implemented Light Dash as a main move and not just a gimmick, somersault to defeat shielded enemies and serve as a simple obstacle, bounce, rail grinding... So it's not a big of a surprise that only SA1 *really* makes use of physics, and even with that I find myself to be still be really simple and can be repetitive (by "repetitive" I do not mean in a bad way, just that you repeat a lot), It's pretty much spindash or spindash + jump all the time, so I don't quite understand why Treasure Hunting or even Shooting could be too basic when It's basically just as simple as Jump and Spindash. For example, you have the Lock-On mechanic, but the way you approach it can be really different depending on the situation, It's not always just "Lock-On 11 targets and repeat", sometimes you have to release the button earlier or else the enemy will attack you, or you need to avoid a bullet, or you have to do closer-range Punch. This is even more intense on the Dreamcast version because the Lock-On rate is lower, so a lot of times you cannot Lock-On to all enemies in time. For Treasure Hunting, the punch itself works similar to a Spin Dash, if you start accelerating and punch, you'll get an instant boost of speed that is very fun to perform, there is even some physics involved too, where if you jump at a certain speed on a ledge inclined upwards, you'll jump much higher than if it where on flat surface, you can easily test that at the 12 platforms at the bottom of Mad Space, there is the three-punch combo to destroy objects on the air, Drill Claw to descend at high-speeds, digging mechanic that makes the player be more aware of the details of the scenery, Spiral Upper that is very useful to collect airborne objects. I think it has simple movement that can be just as fun to master as for Action Race characters, each level has it's own gimmick that makes it unique from others, either a chasing beetle, strong wind, planet gravity, reversed hints, meteor rain, hourglass doors, etc. That also applies to other styles. About the Nights thing, I can understand why not like it, the game is too heavily focused around the ranking system, so much so that I only really started to have FUN when I started going for Ranks, because just passing through sections casually is boring as hell. I can say SA2 is kinda similar in that regard, the Shooting gameplay is only really engaging if you go for A-Rank, or else you'll just spam the Action Button everywhere, Treasure Hunting can only be "fast-paced" if the player wants to go for A-Rank, and all the Action Link stuff for Action Race like that section of Pyramid Cave I mentioned can only be incentivized if the player goes for A-Rank, or else it will be just a boring linear hallway all the time without much challenge. That's why I don't think people should limit to just "play the campaign", most of the fun cannot be achieved by just playing a level once, because the game is designed considering the player will inevitably replay the levels alongside doing Chao stuff. These next three paragraphs should've been in the first comment, but I had to cut due to char limit so I'll put here. I do agree that Mission 4 is the worst and I wouldn't mind if they just removed it or made them some kind of Mirror Mode or something else to make it more unique, but I really disagree regarding the rest because replaying the same levels is exactly what a replay value is all about, play the game's content again with better results and unlock extra missions with differences here and there, that's what most games I can think about do, I suppose you find repetitive because you literally showed you were playing City Escape over and over and over and over again, when you can easily just switch to Radical Highway, then switch to Final Rush, maybe try Mission Street later... you don't need to play the same level five times in a row, you're just hurting your experience by doing that, I didn't quite understand what were you expecting from replaying a game. There is a decent amount of unlockables other than Green Hill, there is the Multiplayer costumes, alternate Karts, optional upgrades, new themes to buy, and Chao stuff that appears on the Black Market the more emblems you have. There is the stage size, which for most levels I think it's fine, but I do agree that the two space levels overexaggerate a bit, especially Mad Space. I think Death Chamber has the perfect size for a big Treasure Hunting level with limited radar, it takes 2 minutes for a skilled player to pass through all areas and they have a decent amount of hazards and enemies, if we think of Death Chamber as 100% in that regard, I would say Meteor Herd is 120% and Mad Space is 170%, that means they are overexaggerating in level size, if Meteor Herd didn't had two floors of balconies at the top that forces the player to manually climb all the way up, it would be 100%, in Mad Space there is only one floor of balconies, but there a a general lack of mobility to traverse between planets, the Capsule Planet is a bit too big and those platforms at the bottom are too spaced from each other, which wouldn't be a big problem if the render distance reached from a far, forcing the player to step in each of them until the objects can be seen on-screen even if the player already know the level. The last thing I'll add is that hints suffered heavily from poor translation (Mad Space is practically broken from how bad it was translated), if you want to have a much better and faithful experience to how it is in Japanese, I made a mod called "Retranslated Hints", which does exactly that (It's on Gamebanana). Thanks for the attention.
@@sanglish18 SA1's gameplay is definitely one-note. It is just spindash and spindash jumps all day, every day. But I find the raw speed and using the terrain to manipulate the trajectory of my jumps far more fun than the treasure hunting or mech gameplay. I am well aware of everything you mention mechanic wise. I've 100%ed this game at least 4 times in my life, and put in countless hours. It's just a difference in what we find enjoyable. I definitely did hurt my own experience by doing all the missions in a stage back to back. In my playthroughs of later games, I've started varying up the levels and it does make things much more bearable. Though, I still wouldn't say it's great. Replay value is not just about having the player replay things with new stuff to do. It's about how much fun it is while replaying stuff. And I really wouldn't say any of mission types are very worthwhile other than the Chao ones and some of the hard stages. It also doesn't help that I find a lot of this gameplay pretty uninteresting to begin with. My criticism was that the 100% experience is filled with a lot of boring stuff and redoing things you've already done, and it did not have to be that way. And again, I know about the other stuff you unlock. But I don't find any of that valuable, so I didn't mention it. You're the one who made the retranslated hints mod? Cool. I saw that while looking around. Awesome job, dude.
@@sanglish18 Your stuff is well said although Meteor Herd is actually easier to traverse quickly than Death Chamber. You can use the Rockets to easily ascend & then use the Drill Dive to go down & at any point you are diving you can just start gliding around anywhere you need to go. Death Chamber is the Level 4 Stage in 2P for good reason & even then a huge chunk of it is removed. Red-Blue Path is gone & it isn't as easy to go from Blue to Red as it is to go from Red to Blue. I still think of the door into the Blue half as a point of no return after getting all 180 Emblems on 3 occasions. Also we normally don't factor in that the Chao Path was actually part of the level. The Hallway confined structure makes Death Chamber take longer than Meteor Herd to navigate.
as much as i disagree with your adventure reviews and lean towards the ruby of blue/jeb/j’s reviews analysis of the adventure games, you were actually fair and gave your points well, great video, a definite thumb up and sub from me
The reason A ranks are based on score instead of time is to do with the stage design. SA1 and later Sonic Frontiers shows just how much proper Sonic movement and a good move set can destroy a stage, you can just spamdash or air boost flying over everything skipping tons of the stage. And while that's great for time trials, the ranking system is there to add an additional goal to go for. By forcing players to utilize score gimmicks, special rails, enemy chains, light speed dashing, hidden springs, golden beetles, etc., the designers can get players to actually interact with their stage design. Score-based ranking systems aren't needed and aren't used in the 2D games because 2D is inherently more restrictive, you HAVE to interact with way more of the stage design in 2D whereas you can just skip a ton in 3D. The ranking system BEING based on score makes players evaluate and actually use the stage design, without locking anything substantial behind A ranks behind bragging rights and a shitty 3D reinterpretation of Green Hill act 1 Time attack and score attack are two different high-skill level ways to play, letter ranks just substantiated that skill for score attack
Unleashed Wii and Generations both prove that good design is all that's needed to get players to interact with the stage. To go fast, you must interact with nearly everything in those games. In score based games, you usually have to slow down and go out of your way to score, which is why you can just run past everything when playing for speed. If the obstacles were designed around speed, running past them would be what slows you down.
@@Pariah6950 Right, but SA2's chosen solution is that, since the obstacles aren't designed for speed, they're instead designed for style and score. You can go for a good time OR you can go for a good score. The issue is that you can't do both in one run of a stage, especially since SA2's time bonus is so pitiful- it maxes out at 10,000, which is never enough to get an A rank on it's own, you NEED to get a few THOUSAND additional points for the A rank even if you do get the max time bonus. So I do agree that it's weird the ranking system almost exclusively takes score into account and barely cares about time. If there were two ranks per stage, one for time and one for score, I wonder how that would change perception of the ranking system...
The mech shooting is honestly my favorite gameplay style in SA2. The ranking system works best in those levels and it doesnt have any major flaw like the radar in the treasure hunting stages or same button syndrome in the speed stages. I know some criticize Tails being in a mech, but I think that's awesome!
i think SA2 is a prelude to what we eventually got from the boost games in Gens and Unleashed. SA2 is trying to be a linear, obstacle course that tests your reaction time more than anything, but it tries to do that by way of mechanics which are not suited to that at all, those being the mechanics of SA1 and the classics, which were specifically designed for a much more open and explorative platforming experience. The boost games are trying to do the exact same thing as SA2, but in their case, they are much better designed around mechanics to aid that end. of course, I have my fair share of issues with the boost games, but if I had to pick between SA2's speed stages and the boost gameplay of Gens and Unleashed, the latter two pull off this concept way better than SA2 because they aren't trying to retrofit mechanics from a radically different kind of game into their concept like SA2 did.
Somersaults are used not just for breaking boxes and going under gaps, but for also combat. In a lot of situations it’s safer to somersault then homing attack if you know the GUN robot is going to shoot you before the homing attack reaches. Not to mention how awesome somersault jumps look and feel, definitely one of the most swag moves Sonic has ever done in any game
I never had much of a problem with the ranking system being determined by score because I got a lot of joy out of watching Sonic do cool actions stylishly and I usually mapped my runs based on maximizing the cool factor and experiencing what the already rather short levels have to offer rather than raw speed that'd simply trivialize what the developers worked to set up for us. I can totally understand the frustration of time attacking not being conducive to high ranks, but I also understand why that wasn't the design philosophy by the devs
I see how you say the ranking system is off becsuse it doesn't prioritize speedrunning which you're right about, but the fun of it is when you can manage to choose what to do for score or whether you can skip it for time instead. Makes it more like a choice game where you can get a good time depending in whether you know where the best score areas are and whether you can skip it or not allowing for you to get an A rank or not, for exampls you can speedrun final rush and always get an A rank. Its really cool.
I agree with those reviewers, it shows just how much content and replay value the game has, without 100% it's just 31 levels and iirc 18 bosses, granted, those levels alone are also very replayable but people don't tend to see it like that.
You are right about the space emerald stages being too big but man when I was a kid I thought it was the coolest thing, loved exploring all around and looking for hidden shit everywhere
I think most of your criticisms of the gameplay are fair, but regarding the ranking system and general structure of the game I do think SA2 is an Overall improvement when compared to SA1 It's perfectly reasonable to want a good time attack experience in a sonic game, but considering that Speed stages aren't the only playstyle I think the score system is a better fit for the game as a whole. A big problem I have with SA1 is that feels like there's very little incentive to replay the levels other than fastest completion. Frankly, the missions barely change anything for most characters unless you heavily followed the intended path on your first playthrough, and there's no incentive to interact with the level design in new way's. The fact that A ranking a stage actually requires you to interact with and pay attention to the level design makes a second playthrough more worthwhile IMO. It also ties into the structure a bit. I get that not everyone loves the other playstyles, but the thing is you don't necessarily have to grind through a story in one sitting. When I first played SA2 as a kid, when I got stuck on a hero level, I'd switch to dark or vice versa. And if you're really itching to get back to a Speed stage nothing is stopping you from going to stage select to play mission 2 or A Rank mission 1 if you didn't already. Maybe even gather some Rings or Chaos Drives and Animals for your Chao. My Older Sister played mission 1 of Iron Gate over 100 times before she beat the Last Story for this reason. I'd argue that the game is more fun and better paced if you alternate between Story and the Missions and Chao garden as they unlock instead of grinding through each part all at once. But In Sa1 the game encourages you can play a ton of Sonic levels back to back, and ironically sours the experience for me, even though I agree that they're the best levels in the game. Sure you get to play the best part's of the game uninterrupted, but it's all downhill from there. Some of the weakest levels for the alternate playstyles in SA1 are their first ones, so there's even more of an incentive to stick with or go back to Sonic. And that's before mentioning how much of a slog navigating the hubs with Amy and Big is. For the record, I would say I somewhat like every playstyle in the Adventure games (yes, even Fishing), but the way SA2 is more streamlined leads to a more balanced gameplay loop. I've never 100% completed SA2, but I usually wind up with about 80 or so emblems between missions and the Chao Garden whenever I replay it, It honestly feels like a chore to replay SA1 from start to credits.
Ngl In my opinion the sonic fanbase is made of 2 extremes The people who care utmost for that Sonic styled multiple Paths and physics based systems And the people who love the Fast paced obstacle dodging like in Sa2 and Unleashed It’s pretty hard to find That gameplay anywhere outside of sonic Until the Sonic like genre came around ig
Fans of the physics based/open level design tend to like SA1, S&3K, and Gens, whereas fans of the fast paced style tend it like Sonic 2, SA2, and Unleashed
I just want to say I love your content and this video is no exception. Your more analytical look at Sonic games from a gameplay standpoint rather than a more surface level discussion has always been a breath of fresh air. However, I do think you are looking at this game in a bit of the wrong way. I will preface this by saying I have always been a staunch supporter of SA1 > SA2 and, while I do still believe that to be mostly true, I have found a new found love of this game after finally attempting and getting all 180 emblems and looking at the game from a different lens. Sonic Adventure 2 is inherently a score attack game, not a time attack game. Which, while different from the norm for the series, and certainly not what you seem to like, is not a bad thing. Honestly, it's not too dissimilar to how Sonic CD presents a more exploration focused Sonic game in stark contrast to the other classic 2D games. Sonic Adventure 2 is just a different flavor of 3D Sonic. When I started to look at the game from this perspective I started to appreciate it much more. In speed stages, the "pointless" running segments are improved with little challenges like jumping hrough trick rings and hitting ramps. The "pointless" bounce bracelet? Chain kills to rack up a higher score bonus. The set piece moments? Get to the top of the rocket or hit the highest spring at the end of Green forest for more points. Not to mention things like getting a perfect jump off of rails or finding the hidden 1000 point Gold Beetle in every stage. In Hunting stages, the new radar forces the player to use the hint monitors more, however, there is a score penalty for using too many of them, so it introduces a risk/reward system that encourages learning the level layouts more for higher scores. And Shooting segments should be obvious in their scoring potential. Add in the ranking system to incentivise score play, in addition to the multiple missions per level with different rank requirements, and SA2 became a far superior game than the sum of its parts. The depth that the game always seemed to lack to me, finally clicked and my opinion on the game drastically improved. I honestly find it to be the most focused and refined 3D Sonic game, where everything about the game is in-service to the greater design philosophy. Hell, I even like the Chao and how you get the animals, Chaos Drives, and rings in the levels incentivising replaying stages and even adding a bit of exploration (the Lost Chao missions do this too) that the game normally lacks. Ultimately, I believe your disdain for the ranking system being score based is missing the entire design of the game, in that, despite having a different design to other Sonic games, SA2 is still a fantastic game. Also, as a side note, Sonic Team making a score attack game isn't completely out of left field. NiGHTS and Billy Hatcher are also designed much more around scoring as opposed to time. SA2 is just the only time that they really committed to the idea with Sonic.
Yeah, exactly. As Pariah usually puts it. Judge a game for what it is, not what it isn't. SA2 isnt a time attack game, it's honestly kinda boring if you play like that anyway. Oh btw, no, I don't like the game btw lmao
I guess I'm different than most people in that I actually like all of the gameplay styles in this game. I didn't really mind SA1, but I think this game just did it right. All of the gameplay styles are fun to me. I didn't mind the hub worlds in SA1, but this game does feel much more streamlined. This is the first time you've actually said you like Sonic bosses, wow. I do think I like SA2 more than SA1, but they're both pretty good. And yes, butt rock is good. I'm just a huge metalhead though. I actually kinda like the Chao. I don't mind playing things I actually like. It's not my favorite, but it's still very good in my opinion.
I recently played both SA1 and SA2 back to back and I completely agree that speed gameplay is just better in SA1, but for SA2 treasure hunting is actually my favorite part of the game. I'll have to give the SA1 radar mod a try, but I think the hint monitors is enough to make it really enjoyable. I find them kind of comparable to collecting stars in mario 64 where you get a hint at the start and then you need to find it. As for the mech gameplay I think the levels are designed better in SA2, but I also think gama just feels a lot better to play as so its a bit hard for me to decide on that. Also you will think this is a terrible idea but last time I played SA1 I tried to return to the chao garden after every stage and was able to complete everything for it before I beat the game, so no grinding was necessary and was amusing to figure out how to get back to one at some points in the game. As for SA2 I think the grind of the chao garden synergizes with how much you need to replay levels for ranks, so if you're going for 100% and you're going back to chao garden after each stage you should be able to get all that done as well pretty easily(not that you'd want to).
For this playthrough, I actually tried to do Chao legit at first. I was regularly returning to the garden, during the story and while going for A ranks. And I was using a mod that dramatically increases how quickly Chao level up. And even then, by the time I had all the other Emblems my Chao was nowhere near where it needed to be to win everything. Then it did just devolve into grinding, and I said screw it. Might as well save myself time and just get the stats up with the editor. I cut that whole part of the video out for length because the end conclusion is the same. I hate grinding so I don't like Chao.
I love both adventure games so much as they were both childhood games, i actually 100% both of them and for me i got the most out of these games by doing it. It was pretty difficult but it was so satisfying. 100% the game did give me a much bigger understanding of the game on both negatives and positives and this video gave me a detailed opposite opinion. While i dont agree with everything in this video, i know these adventure games arent for everyone
As a modern day, 8 months after this video is uploaded, commenter, I think the very reason I like this game is why I like Frontiers as it's out now. I get what he means on the surface it really does seem as though it's nothing but QTEs. But I think that's the genius of it. It's simple and seems as though it's a lot of interactable cutscenes but the point in my view's case is that even that can be thrilling and challenging when you're actually using the freedom of Sonic's move set, even if limited in a way , to do what Sonic has always done in its own way. That's why I just genuinely love this one.
In my honest opinion, The Perfect Adventure Formula would be SA1 Sonic with bounce and insta lightspeed dash (no summersault, just make Sonic roll like Tails and Knuckles if already going at max speed), SA2 Knuckles with the original attacks (the 1-2-3 punches, the roll and heat attacks, maybe giving full i-frames to the latter), SA1 Tails with buffed flight time and VERY nerfed air acceleration (not touching max speed), SA1's open level design and hub worlds, and SA2's score/ranking system. Shadow and Rouge are just clones unless you take a STH 06 (or P-06) approach, and it would be fair to leave Eggman as his own thing. For extras, SA1 Amy but faster (like, slower than Knuckles but not slower than Gamma) and with a double jump, and... well, Gamma is fundamentally different to mechs in many aspects, but Gamma's dead (unless you go with Chaos Gamma, who's not even the same, at that point you could just go with Omega), so I guess you'll have to go with mechs, sadly... and please give Big a reworked fishing system that isn't dictated by RNG and let it be an optional side mode UNRELATED to the main plot, maybe get an emblem per level? idk, Big shouldn't be a part of the main game but that doesn't mean he shouldn't stick around, I really liked his concept of being the exact opposite to Sonic.. but maybe he's already ok with cameos.
although, I wouldn't trade air-cancels just to get some extra height when you can do the same with a spin jump... maybe double pressing the action button could work?
Even when I disagree, I can see where he's coming from... interesting to finally see some of the detractors of the game's points more than ever. Not saying Pariah is, just that over the years of not really understanding and not trying to, I can still see my view and see theirs at the same time. Great video. Love when vids can make me think like that it's engaging.
I just love playing SA1 because of the freedom in areas like the hub for mystic ruins or the second part of Speed Highway. SA2 feels more rigid, like I am forced to things the way the game intends me to, Knuckles stages in SA2 don't even let you collect the emerald pieces out of order for crying out loud
I love SA1 it's my favorite Sonic game Adventure 2 is slowly becoming my favorite again like it once was personally I'm indifferent about the gameplay styles for both games I enjoy both they offer something that the other doesn't and have their strengths and weaknesses much like the classic games that proceed them my personal favorite classic Sonic game is Sonic CD Adventure 1 and 2 are both outstanding games that offer gameplay styles that are up to personal preference either you like one over the other or you're like me and you like both that's why Sonic is beloved his games all have different styles that offer something for everyone he has his bad games like any franchise but he has many gems.
Hey dude. This is a good video you've made. Good job! 👍 Sonic Adventure 2 is a good game, but it's not the greatest Sonic game. That honor goes to Sonic Robo Blast 2.
while this is my favorite sonic game (with only unleashed being close behind it) and while i also disagree with a lot of what you said, i do think most of your criticisms are valid, it's either just things i don't mind or find as big of an issue as you do because of our different tastes in what we want/looking for out of a sonic game. overrall i enjoyed the video and your other sonic videos as well
In many ways, I've found that the classic sonic games and SA1 are games about going fast. SA2 seems more like a game about looking fast. It doesn't mean it's bad, but personally, I prefer the more interactive nature of the previous games. Also, I love that your using the normal shoes mod. Literally thought I was the only person who likes it. :)
Yeah. I'm not a fan of the soap shoes. They are too big and way overly detailed. And the original shoes from SA2's beta are some of the best looking ones they've done on a 3D model, imo. You can also see I've got the upgrade models disabled. I think the designs get way too busy when you strap a bunch of junk all over the characters. It really makes them stand out when standing next to Amy or Tails out of his mech.
@@Pariah6950 I don't think the soap shoes are overly designed. Too big? Idk. But overly designed? No. It can be resigned to look better for Sonic, but the shoes were added for promotional material later in development, so take that at what you will. :p
Good video! While I don't agree with every point, you do make many fair criticisms. Though I personally prefer SA2 over 1, I'll agree I enjoy how Sonic plays in the 1st one more than the 2nd. However, I've always enjoyed 2 a little more because, to me, it feels better to get a good rank or do a good run of a level. Plus level design wise the other two play styles greatly benefit from having levels made just for them instead of ripping areas from Sonic's levels like in SA1. Both games are great, but to each their own!
Idk I kinda switch between preferring SA1 or SA2 on a regular basis but Gamma is more fun than the SA2 shooting stages imo. It would be nice if Gamma's levels had a ranking system but whatever. My main issue with SA2 is them locking an entire stage behind 100%. And the 1-button thing but as you said that can be fixed. Last thing I wanted to say is that I much prefer just playing the treasure hunting hard mode stages twice than wandering around looking for the Chao.
@@Laekith You need the mystic melody ability for finding lost Chao & you don't have to put that much effort into Chao raising if you're just going for the emblems. Chao raising in Sonic Adventure is also required 100% completion in that game as well.
There's very little rose tint on your goggles compared to when I played these games. You've really peeled this one to its core parts. Both Adventure games are fun to me, and I've been playing as dev intent. Felt I'd go off course by spinning way back then.
@The lost bits On the contrary, I've had this as a very nostalgic game personally. There's been an argumet for a a while that only "x" stages are good in SA2, and that can be different person to person. Felt like I was watching one of the most objective povs yet here referring to level design. I would have enjoyed more platforming and navigation. The controls and setpieces are deserving of it. I was laughing at how many single purpose almost qte commands you have in this game. They flow nicely enough when you're in a level.
Not sure if you know this or even care about it but what the heck, I am going to talk about it anyway. But yeah, there were only 1/5 of Sonic Adventure developers who worked on Sonic Adventure 2 and the whole development process was pretty chaotic. (as a matter of fact, the whole situation regarding SEGA was pretty chaotic at the time) And I imagine that this game was probably rushed too. I'd say it's a miracle it is as good as it is. It is still rather rough and it's kinda half and half in terms of being better than SA1 which was also a pretty mess of a game but things could have been way worse.
SA2 is better. Gameplay wise I think they both have their ups and downs along with things that they both do better than the other. When it comes to Story, structure, level Design & music.... Sonic Adventure 2 wins in these categories no competition. Also Chao Garden in SA2 is so much better.
The thing about reusing assets is that every video game company does this to save money. It’s not just unique to Sonic. Many people complain that it’s lazy, but if you differentiate the levels enough most gamers wouldn’t even notice it. It’s just a smart way for companies to save time and money on their games.
The score reliant rank makes sense for Knuckles because the levels are fucking sprawling, but in the linear hallway levels for Sonic and Shadow what's there to explore?
i'm playing sa2 for the first time and it just doesnt "tick" for me. just love sa1 but have my complaints about sa2, mostly the same ones as you. great video!
Yeah,as someone who played sa2 first I also have my complaints about sa1,probabaly would’ve been the same as you had I played adventure 1 first though.
I would definitely suggest at least playing every mission… personally what I did is just shoot for C ranks just to kinda prove to myself I’m familiar with these levels and can get through them somewhat efficiently… and if I had fun trying to do that in a particular mission or felt like I was close I’d go for B or A because I quickly realized going for all A ranks was just gonna be way too sweaty for me to enjoy
The treasure hunting in sa2 is not simple, it's a clever mixture of using critical thinking to solve puzzles and riddles(the hint monitors). They are super useful for finding the pieces of the master emerald especially in stages like death chamber. Especially in the dream Cast version where they get rid of the exclamation mark. In pumkin hill instead of gliding around like a nimrod you could've checked the hints and it would've likely said sad face and you would've been like oh so you go back to that pumpkin mountain and you find the shard. Or you get another hint on top of that and it will specify where it is. It seems like you don't understand the treasure hunting in this game, or you just didn't decide to get it. Also emerald shards are constantly changing places if you get the first emerald place the other two will switch places
Or how the Treasure Hunting Stages are usually divided into three sections usually and the emeralds are spread to each of those areas like in Pumpkin Hill for example (Train Mountain, Church Mountain, Pumpkin Mountain) so it takes knowing the shortcuts to three major areas to know the fastest way between them and trial and error to know the spawn location of the first emerald to get it going and having a sharp eye to see emeralds floating without the radar beeping to get a Perfect score on the way.
I like finding emeralds out of sequence without the radar! It's fun! Once the stages get bigger it becomes impractical though, for sure. Honestly, I do still prefer the variety in this game at least to the other 3d Sonic titles I've played. Playing Sonic heroes lately, I've found it pretty monotonous and the fact that the game never really changes its style makes it a little exhausting. I like that the game takes time to breathe without forcing me into adventure fields. Would have been nice if they built on the last story and let the alt playstyles exist outside of the treasure hunting. Love this game. Never went for 100 percent or A rank because it never felt like it was worth the suffering.
I'm gonna disagree about the somersault and bounce. I'm glad they gave Sonic more moves to change up the gameplay so you're not just barreling through everything with little to no variance. By adding unique obstacles that can only be addressed by specific moves, it makes the game feel more rhythmic when trying to go fast and stops you from just spamming the spindash for every obstacle like in SA1. I do think the somersault should have been replaced by rolling up into a ball though, kinda like how you can in Sonic Robo Blast 2. I also don't really like how you're criticizing the game for telling player "use the b button here" via obstacles when you can reduce literally every aspect of a level's design to to requests like that. It's just a weak, hypercritical point that means nothing because it can be applied to anything.
My one major disagreement is I would definitely play a game that was just the hunting gameplay fleshed out. I could imagine a hunting stage/rougelike thing it sounds pretty fun actually.
Bruh, everyone gotta stick to their own opinion, some say both suck, others say sa 1 is better than sa 2, or vise versa.. either way, whatever intricate details you or anyone will point out.. just stick to what you like… cool video 🔥💪🏽
@@simonplatt5108 Yeah I realize that after coning back now. Although that does happen in base game but it's just a really quick animation then it quits. Just did it in crazy gadget last night on accident when I rolled
While I think you do have some valid criticisms, I really feel like for the speed stages, you are blaming the game for the fact that you're too good at it and it's no longer fun anymore, because your description of "press the button at the right time" does not at all reflect how the average player experiences these stages
That's such a fallacy of an argument. Unless you're an actual speedrunner, most games cannot be reduced to a series of timed button presses. Most games require the player to figure out what to do in the current situation. What buttons should you even be pressing. In lots of games, there's not one correct answer. And skill is often needed. You need to aim in shooters, move precisely in platformers, reaction speed, timing, etc. This game rarely requires anything like that.
I do prefer SA1 although I haven't beaten it yet but I did beat SA2. I didn't really like the gameplay in SA2 as much as SA1, I liked how SA1 had more freedom with movement and more open levels. May or may not be a hot take but I prefer SA1's OST but don't get me wrong, SA2's OST is a banger too, I just prefer a lot more stage tracks and vocal tracks from SA1.
SA1 feels like a transition piece, SA2 is when modern sonic became it's own thing. SA2 Is more successful at doing what it set out to do, but SA1 is the only 3D game setting out to follow the genesis games, SA1 while flawed is the closest to genesis games then any other official 3D games. It's a mess but it's also unique.
47:57 when you said this I got extremley excited just thinking about it Lol I think I genuienly like the treasure hunting levels more than the speed stages, even with the nerfed radar, which I personally prefer
If ur saying that this game is overall linear and automated (for the speed levels) then I don’t wanna imagine what you’ll say about the boost games. Lol
i disagreed with a decent amount of points but then i thought it over and i think i agree with baaasically everything here- besides the fact that i love gamma’s gameplay lol
Two questions: 1. Why is the Character Select mod essential for Sonic Adventure 2? You can’t finish the speed levels as the non-speed characters, the mech stages as non-mech characters, or the treasure hunting stages as non-treasure hunting characters. So what’s the point. 2. Why is patcher onto Sonic Runners? How do you use patcher for Sonic Runners Revival?
id like to give an honourable mention to the second sonic boss in SA1, in which you can spam the homing attack to fuck and kill eggman in like 30 seconds. yes it's a glitch. yes it's funny as fuck. moving on
I think SA2 is probably the most refined 3d sonic game, especially from a user experience. I love SA1, it's one of my favorite sonic games, but unless you really love and dig into the sonic gameplay, there's really not a lot too it, which I think is the biggest reason people say it aged poorly. It's really janky, most of the level design doesn't work for any character besides sonic, the adventure aspects of it (hub world, other gameplay styles, cutscenes, etc) are not very engaging and get away from the good parts, and I think for a lot of people, the game lost a lot of It's shine when either they replayed it, or played it after playing other 3d platformers. Luckily, the sonic gameplay has a lot of depth with it's movement, and you can really go wild with it, which I think is super fun, but I understand if you can't get into that, or you prefer to just play games as they are....it's really hard to get into and enjoy. Whereas SA2, there's a lot less jank (probably the least 3d janky sonic game), the cutscenes and overall presentation of its story is actually really good for a 3d platformer even now (even if you don't like the story), I think there was a ton more thought put into the design of the treasure hunting and mech stages, the speed characters have better game feel, and I think that really appeals to people. I see why it's so beloved, the game just feels like more of a thought out and planned game. For me personally, I don't find the sonif gameplay style interesting to go back too, I think the mech and treasure hunting stages feel a lot more intrusive despite overall being much better, and well I find its presentation to be really appealing, ultimately, I don't play platformers for cutscenes, so outside of a first playthru, I'm not getting much out of it. So I think kind of as a result, people who are more into just, a refined, fundamentally solid game, and maybe don't go back to sonic games that often, SA2 is a much better game for them, and I think that's a lot more people who are more into the fun, deep, and really replayable gameplay, despite the kinda bad overall experience.
@Lonelysum Yeah, I replayed the game a bit after I commented that, it definitely has a lot more jank than I remembered, and when I said it was the most refined...I definitely was moreso thinking up till Unleashed and on, Colors and especially Generations are much better. But still, I think SA2 has a lot of positives, like I said, but I'm a bit colder on the game nowadays. It's never been my favorite or anytning anyway, but I think I overcorrected, cus I used to hate the game when I was a kid after playing SA1 lol.
Well, maybe I'm weird, Maybe not, But the treasure hunting stages (especially wild canyon and Security Hall) are my favorite levels in the game, And this is my favorite sonic game of the bunch, and oddly enough, Sonic CD is my 2nd favorite classic (behind Sonic 3), is that weird? I'm not gonna go all defensive and say that you didn't raise some good points, I HATE the mech Gameplay because the controls are janky and I can never get the lock on shots to do what I need them to, and The speed stages are... I just find them boring, except city escape, radical highway, and weapons bay. Back to the main point, I'll just say that this game has a lot of really low points (Final rush, final chase, crazy gadget, And Canon's core are the worst offenders I can think of), but the highs of the levels I mentioned before make the game worth playing for me. So yeah, you're entitled to your opinion that SA 1 is better, and in some aspects, I'd agree, but the highest highs of SA2 will always make this my favorite sonic game, and actually my favorite game ever made. Ps. Seriously am I weird for loving the treasure hunting stages and sonic Cd? Maybe I'm just more into exploration than anything else
Alright. On the "it's not really a platformer because you just do things the game tells you" - so... like a platformer then? This complaint is kinda weird. Like, let's take Ratchet and Clank, for instance, a 3D platformer that didn't get a polarizing reputation over the years. There are multiple sequences in that game where you have no other choice but to use a swingshot. In fact, while each level in Ratchet and Clank has multiple paths, the game is actually fairly linear because each of those paths leads to a different objective and on them there are no sidepaths to speak of, other than an occasional secret. Does it make it a bad game because it's linear and you do precisely what the game wants you to do? Just because you do the things the game expects you to do, it doesn't mean you can't fail. Even the homing attack chains you can still fuck up (as many a SA2 player would attest) if your timing or range are off and sometimes it means you'll die, sometimes it slows you down and puts you on a slower path... which do actually exist in this game. I was surprised to hear you say that they don't exist when throughout the video you took some paths I never did, like, say, that very first light dash chain that I never knew existed. They are shorter and less pronounced than in SA1, probably due to Dreamcast getting old while the game's graphics have gotten an upgrade, but they are definitely there, there are sequences where you can either run or rail grind on the side, like in the Jungle stages or in Metal Harbour and if you manage to pull it off well, grinding can be faster, net you some score and put you towards a faster route, but it's very risky. The scoring system also does, in fact, encourage speed - killing enemies in a quick succession and doing things like perfectly pulling off a somersault nets you a score bonus, as does good rail grinding. But on the Sonic games always encouraging you to complete the level as quickly as possible prior to SA2... did they really? Sonic 1 had you collect fifty rings in a level and slow down for the giant ring in the end, Sonic 2 had star post checkpoints act as special stage portals that you had to stop in order to access, Sonic 3&K encouraged you to explore and look for giant rings and Sonic CD... do we even have to say anything on Sonic CD? That rocket in Metal Harbor is such a perfect example because what you call BORING, I call really damn tense because... it was really difficult for me to make it in time to the top ramp and messing up means you lose for good, you need to start the whole stage over because your entire score resets. Score attacking a lot of these levels is anything but easy, your timing and reaction have to be nigh-on perfect at times. SA2 is very much a risk vs reward style game and I don't think you give it nearly enough credit in this regard. It's not deep, but it's not shallow and one-note either, it's philosophy is like that of an arcade game. On the "they could've just made it 100% speed gameplay and it wouldn't have been a problem" - I would disagree there as well. You don't notice that the game reuses assets all the time because the gameplay styles are so different, but it'll get way, way more noticeable if they would be constantly used in the same ways. That's... why we got new gameplay styles constantly and why there wasn't such a thing as a full-on linear one-style 3D Sonic game. Alternate gameplay styles also help bring more traditional platforming into it because speeding and platforming just doesn't combine nearly as well in 3D as it does in 2D, which is also why we got different gameplay styles for the Blue Blur himself with the Adventure gameplay, the Boost gameplay of Unleashed and its follow-ups or the fucking trash gameplay or Lost World. Having those slower styles also helps the pacing of the game because one non-stop rush after another can just wear a player down. Now granted, there are hiccups in pacing like that one example that you pointed out where there were several Tails and Knuckles stages in a row (and Shadow definitely needed more stages), but it's a problem of execution, not the concept. Having just one gameplay style... would require for the entire Speed gameplay to be singificantly slower in order to pad out the length and not overwhelm the players with a constant rush, but then people would end up complaining that Sonic is so damn slow and boring now. Either that, or, well, you end up with a game that's over way too quickly and doesn't let you breath. Not to mention that... you know, SA1 also forced you to play every style if you wanted to actually complete the game, so that example doesn't really work.
I think a better solution for the treasure hunting stages would be to keep the SA1 Radar, but have 5 or 6 shards instead of 3. This would make the levels take longer than SA1 but still mean you don’t have to retread old ground.
I dont think game does not live up to they hype The reason the unleashed works with this type of gameplay is because of how engaging it is. You never get a second to breath and every button press matters.
A lot of really good points, especially the comparison between the speed levels of SA1 and 2, with the latter being much more shallow and uninteresting. Definitely agree. On the other hand, I'd say the other gameplay styles were also way worse in Sa2 compared to their SA1 equivalents. The treasure hunting for instance just drags on and it's way too tedious in SA2. While the mechs in SA2 is so clunky there's little joy in just controlling it, compared to the way faster and more agile Gamma. Ultimately, I don't think any of the gameplay styles other than the speed one, are any good and really have no place in a Sonic game, it just doesn't resemble Sonic gameplay. So the fact that 2/3rds of the game consist of them, makes SA2 one of the weakest Sonic games in the series.
@@RaginDragn24 That's a very weak excuse, considering that Shadow ain't Sonic either yet his gameplay resembles Sonic gameplay still. Not to mention Tails, Knuckles in s3k, advance games and Ray, Mighty in Mania, all had Sonic gameplay despite not being Sonic. So just because it's not Sonic doesn't excuse including awful non-Sonic gameplay in a Sonic game. That's the kind of practice that made people detest the other characters.
@@snakey888 With the expection of Shadow,(who is pretty 8much a clone of Sonic), you only listed stuff from 2D games, which have a completely different design philosophy than 3D.(
kinda unrelated to the whole video but how come when i try to play sonic adventure 2 on pc itll just randomly freeze. There can still be audio but the screen will be stuck on one frame, someone please help?
For the Treasure Hunting Levels I wish there was an optional upgrade you could find in the second to last levels, where it works as an "Upgraded Radar" where all 3 are unlocked. The Meteor Stages are way too big but I feel like having an upgrade like that in a semi-obvious spot could be better, But then again maybe they wouldn't want you to use that upgrade in other stages, so maybe they could've made it a level exclusive sort of thing, if they were able to program that Either way, SA2 for me is a good game, although there are things they've done that was questionable
How did you gloss over the light dash not charging anymore and being incorporated into the flow state? If you don't use the light dash in sa2 you have to be an amateur. What about bouncing onto rails to gain speed? Edit: I always thought the SA1 radar would have been a good upgrade around the halfway point. Would've made the sunglasses matter
I cut some stuff for time. Those are pretty minor things that I didn't feel were that worth mentioning. I show them in the footage enough that I thought that got those things across.
@@Pariah6950 fair enough. I think the light dash being implemented into actual level design at least is pretty notable, but I listen without visuals so I didn't see. The first game has it more like a lock and key type of thing.
Sonic is all about replayability and trial-and-error. And you forget that you are only forced to play the mech stages and hunting stages once. Score Attack is always what the devs intended since Sonic 1, but you are free to play the game with custom home rules for time attack.
So score attack is always what the devs actually intended for Sonic. Why such a focus on speed for marketing then? Why make level design that reward you with speed and shortcuts? Is the games were never about speed, why'd they mislead the public so much about what Sonic is all about?
If you want the mods, it's all in the description. For load order, I haven't had any issues with the mostly default alphabetized order. Only a couple of mods require a specific order. Just read the mod pages and it's pretty easy to setup. Also be sure to configure the mods that can to get things how you want them.
SA2 is Way Better. Both have their Bullshit but SA2’s Bullshit is Less bad and it also has More Good. Edit: Ok after replaying SA2 I can confidently say it’s only got a few problems and it’s way better than SA1. Freakin awesome game definitely the best sonic game ever made
@@Pariah6950 Good thing you shot a good chance of pre 2.3 SRB2 before they gut the physics and levels and make it more Classic and thus invalidate opinions
To address the whole "SA2 isn't a platformer" to the game's credit the Omochao tutorial describes the Sonic/Shadow stages as "High Speed 3D Action Games" which is a more fitting description.
While a lot of things you said rustled my jimmies (considering this is my favourite game) I still thoroughly enjoyed the video. Excited to see your perspective on the story.
Thank you. A lot of people can get very defensive when someone criticizes something they like, so I'm glad you enjoyed it anyway. The story video should be interesting. I have a lot to say, good and bad.
@@Pariah6950 You really brought a lot of fair criticism, there some stuff that I disagree on but a lot of it comes back to taste, I was gonna comment properly on my thoughts on your videos but I'm currently watching this at work so I can't really do so atm but I'm enjoying listening to your videos even though I love the adventure series with 2 being my favorite
@@Pariah6950 I just disagree with ur take on the bounce bracelet and how it's a simple binary upgrade sure in the levels they don't ask u to use it much when just completing the level in mission 1 but u as the player can use it in so many ways to break the game like even more than the spindash jump ever did in sa1. Like breaking gravity it's a great tool to get u to the ground quickly it takes in to ur account the momentum when bouncing up a wall getting more height. It's good for chaining points together (ik u don't care about that in particular) but that upgrade alone has 4 different purposes for one simple move. The alteration of gravity to get extreme distance and potentially make u potentially even run on walls ur not supposed too, are really fun and increase the skill ceiling tremendously.
The roll attack by itself in the base game isn't that interesting ill admit, like sure u can use it increase ur jump speed without having to charge a spindash and jump and you can attacked sheilded enemies while the guard is up. But with the moD Where u maintain your speed, it turns out to be a great tool for maintaining ur speed through a level. But u don't want to use it all the time cuz u can't change ur direction while doing it but you still will gain/maintain speed, even more speed than you would with spam dashing.
I also think the way you play the game either when ur time attacking or whatever seems not right like in green forest instead of running forward why dont u grind on the rails that are on the top that are more difficult to stay on but gets u through the section slightly faster and gives u a really high point bonus a clear as day example where the score encourages speed. In sky rail why aren't you spindash jumping from one pumpkin to the next which gives u a massive short cut that was designed by the developers. Pyramid cave is an example where if u just try to complete the level as quickly as possible while ignoring the hoops it just boils down to u at least in the first part just stearing ur way down the corridor which is a lot less interesting to me than doing cool parkour and jumping through hoops and running through walls and light speed dashing and chaning all these moves together its just really fun. Also metal harbour andwhite jungle are the only examples I can think of where there's less platforming in them if u don't count (homing attack chains) as at least a platforming tool I do. Metal harbour and white jungle have lots of optional platforming sequences that u would usually skip over because their usually slower than light speed dashing or taking a different path in hard mode tho they restrict ur routes more and add more platforming overall to the gameplay which are usually more difficult too. City escape has way more platforming in it that u didn't mention because u took different routes. The bottom paths usually had more platforming than the upper paths.
Anyways hard mode is my preferred way of playing this game because it just brings out the strengths of each gameplay style more than with the (admittedly more simpler) design of the regular stages. I think you should set the mod loader to play every stage in hard mode on ur next play through and try to play the game in a different way to see if you can see how people like me enjoy the gameplay of the game a lot. Hard mode just makes everything you do more interesting.
@@elibonham4388This why this very game is my favorite to score attack and I return to it more than the rest, I love getting over 20000 Score in Treasure Hunting stages and Speed stages.
All I’m saying is that you explained what I do in the Speed stages and it made me appreciate the game,e more.
56:46
Isn't the appeal of Classic Sonic supposed to be "now do it again, but faster?" Rewarding replayability and such? Seems like an odd gripe.
Thing is you aren't forced to do it for 100%. Doing something by choice and being forced to do something are two completely different things.
@@spartanq7781 but you aren't forced to do extra missions too, the game is not pointing a gun at your heard and FORCING you to play.
@@sanglish18 lmao yea
@@spartanq7781 100%ing a game is extremely niche, most players of any game are absolutely not 100%ing them.
@@KrashyKharmayeah nobody 100% a game they don't love like this one
I see where you're coming from regarding the whole "lack of platforming" thing but I can't help but find it a bit pedantic. You can take any platformer or any game really and boil it down to "press X button here and X button there", though I will grant you that the level design isn't as flexible as a lot of other 3D platformers; but I find mastering fast paced levels like the ones in SA2 immensely satisfying and I want to see more games with this style of play (ideally with more branching paths and flexibility).
I also find the score based ranking system to be more engaging than going purely for speed. Different strokes I guess.
Lastly I've really enjoyed binging your sonic videos so far and appreciate your perspective for being different than a lot out there.
Completely agree. Calling the harder path to the rocket "not plattforming" as opposed to glitching your way to the top is insane.
@@kenonerboyhow is the harder path to the rocket platforming
it's like someone finally put my feelings on this game into words, great vid
I like how you mixed in Pepsi Man gameplay, and it doesn't even feel that out of place somehow. XD
I forgot how much Pepsi was in this game
About Green Hill being the reward for A ranking the emblems, it was pretty cool at the time. Green Hill hadn’t been ran to the ground at that point so it was a really cool novelty.
Pretty good video, even though SA2 is my favorite game and I was inevitably feeling like an arrow was piercing my heart in some parts of the video, it's still interesting to watch these kinds of videos, it makes us feel more open-minded and re-think about our thoughts, especially since you brought some points that I've never seem people talk about. And oh boy I do have my points to share just as you did, so yeah, I'm totally aware this comment is absolutely gigantic :)
I don't feel like the ranking system requiring you to score alongside going fast really makes the game slowdown as you said, I actually think totally the opposite of what you've said, just going fast is not what I find the most fun in Sonic games, SA1 has tons of secrets item boxes, hidden 1-ups, chains of enemies all over the levels and much more alternate paths, but does that really matters? What will you get if you collect 20 rings or 1-up or doing a cool trick and skip a section? Literally nothing, so at the end of the day I end up feeling SA1 feels MORE linear than SA2 because I'm literally skipping everything since there is really no incentive to do exploration, skipping enemies, skipping item boxes and just spam-dashing all the way through the level, I don't find this to be as fun as collecting stuff and destroying enemies *alongside* being fast, which is exactly what SA2 incentivizes, it gives actual value to this level design that SA1 never gave to me.
Take that section of Pyramid Cave for example, where you flip the hourglass and have to reach the door at the end of the long hallway before it closes, if you go for time attack you literally just hold forward and that's it, you passed that section as fast as possible, but now try to jump through the arches doing Action Link combos, executing the light dash in the air, collect two Item Boxes at the wall, hit the spring which will make you run on the wall and hit another spring that will send you back to the floor passing through more arches, then going through the door just in time and receiving tons of points at the end.
What I understood from the video is that if the game incentivizes the player to have a lower time at the end, It's a generally bad thing, so I genuinely ask you if doing the "slower/difficult" route mentioned is really not fun for you, of course I know "fun" is subjective and no one can say how others feel (that's exactly why I'm asking), but for me what makes something fast really satisfactory is what I have to do *while* being fast, if I'm doing tons of actions overcoming a much more difficult obstacle I'll feel much more satisfied in completing it than if I just held forward just for the sake of time attacking, I would really love If SA1 had the same Ranking system because it would make the so-praised level design of it actually meaningful.
That's a very personal thing, but I don't really care about strict duration of a level in a Sonic-style game, if I'm doing actions and overcoming obstacles in a fast-paced basic structure, I'll never feel like the game is forcing me to slowdown at all, even though it really looks weird a Sonic game where you basically have to take the longer route to be better, I think developers came with that concept by just testing and realized how fun it is just as I did despite how counter-intuitive it might sound for a Sonic game and I totally would prefer this type of ranking system of "Score + Time" over just "Time".
Now for Treasure Hunting.
I do believe the radar being limited to one piece at a time in SA2 makes sense and It's apart of how SA2 stages are designed, although this does not mean Treasure Hunting should only be like that as if it were a "magical formula", what I will say is that SA2's makes sense and It was very misunderstood.
I believe the change was basically made to give a much more focused gameplay in combination with the hint system in which will give a direction to where the player should go to find THAT treasure as fast as possible. Making so the Rank system works as stablished, the focus is not simply pass through each area of the stage because the stage itself is a playground to traverse, what really matters is how you traverse through the areas as fast as possible based on how well you explore and understand the stage basic structure.
The limited radar is important for that because it gives a fair score based on how fast you find THAT location using THOSE hints made specifically for THAT piece, which makes it possible to decide your final Rank in a much more complex and consistent way just like the other two playstyles (Action Race is the Action Link with tricks all over the level, Shooting is the Lock-On combos and Treasure Hunting is the Rank-Up points for each treasure), if it were the what I call "free radar" from SA1, it wouldn't be possible to precisely know if that piece you found has something to do with the hint you saw and so give a fair score based on how good the player was in deducing where to go and how fast it were the same way the limited radar does.
More important than that, It's not just about "clear each area of the level until you find three treasures", it's a Decision Making game and I really appreciate you realized that by saying the player can either not use hints and take longer to find the piece or use some hints and find much quickly, I find to be really odd that in your example of Pumpkin Hill you seemed to have totally forgot about that and kept not using hints despite taking a long time to find.
This is also important if you consider how the Multiplayer mode works, both players have the radar of the same one treasure and they have to race to see who reach THAT treasure as fast as possible, which ends up making the competition much fiercer and personal than as if players were completely isolated searching for different treasures with the free radar.
The most used argument against the limited radar is about having to go to the same areas again.
I'm pretty sure everyone already noticed that a lot of Action Race/Shooting stages (if not all) repeats segments in the same level (I think you even mentioned that), now If it were the exact same then it would really be repetitive since it's a linear path, so they always have different objects and enemies positioned, but Treasure Hunting is not a linear path, most of the time even when retuning to areas again you won't do the same sequence of actions, you might enter through another route or explore more of that area that you didn't explore before, if the problem is that it's visually not interesting and does not give variety, then where are the people complaining about Green Forest repeating it's corridors all over the level? The entire stage looks visually about the same so I don't think that's the REAL problem people have when going through the same areas in Treasure Hunting.
From what I noticed, the problem is just that... SA1 exists... the way that game challenges the player through it's gameplay IS different than how SA2 challenges, but It's just so simple to compare one game to another as if it were the exact same thing when It's not, while SA1 is a much simpler game of passing through the stage collecting the emeralds relying on a hot and cold mechanic, SA2 is a much more focused decision making exploration game that rewards the player for quick thinking and how fast it goes to point A to B, which really tests the player's understanding of the level structure.
There is this general thought players have while playing like "if it were SA1's radar I could have just grabbed that one piece right away", but that's never the intention of the game, what matters is NOT the sole action of collecting that piece while being in that area, but *how fast* you traverse through the areas and reach that piece while using the hints and radar as a support, which the game will then reward with the respective Rank-Up points.
It is much easier to understand in case you have played Nights Into Dreams, in the same level there are basically 4 sections where in each one you repeat the same process of "collecting 20 blue spheres, going to the Ideya thing and go back all the way to the beginning, in which you'll be graded for that section", the only difference is that while Nights has a pre-determined path for each of the 4 sections, in Treasure Hunting the player freely chooses which path to take for each of the 3 sections.
When you've said about having to scan the level once, then re-scan and re-scan again, that's a choice from the player with the Decision Making thing I mentioned earlier, not some kind of rule, not only that but all treasures are always spread out from each other, so for example If you find an emerald in Church Mountain, for the 2nd piece you won't have to go there, if you've found the 2nd piece in Pumpkin Mountain, the chances are high that you won't have to go to Church and Pumpkin Mountain for the 3rd piece.
I think I covered up most of what I wanted to talk about, believe it or not ,I had to make this comment shorter because it was surpassing the 10,000 chars limit, so I had to remove my comments on stage size, replay value and other stuff.
This isn't supposed to be any kind of hatred pissed-off response at all and I'm sorry if it sounded like that, I love this game and I don't mind seeing different points of view, it just helps to accumulate knowledge, I wrote this comment one day after I watched the video, so if there is something I pointed out that you already explained, feel free to reply, I'm totally open for discussion!
Thanks for reading if you did so.
You make a lot of good points. This didn't sound like hate at all. And I agree with a number of things you say.
For me, pure time attack is what I enjoy most about Sonic. I'm okay with SA1's stages having a lot of meaningless side areas, because the geometry of the level design still allows for a lot of open-ended player pathing. You say the levels end up more linear, which kind of true once you have a route figured out. But there's so much room for creativity and experimentation to figure out what a fast route is. And that's really fun to me. That is something SA2 is definitely light on. (And with the Emblem Challenge mod for SA1, there can be an incentive to explore.)
Going for the Pyramid Cave hoops is one of the few instances where I find going for score to be more fun than going for time. That part is really cool. But as I said, most of the time the things you do for score are homing attack chains, light speed dashes, etc. Very simplistic things that aren't very interesting. My issue is more about how that contradicts the typical Sonic design of going for a good time. For example, if getting those hoops would open a door to a different path that was faster and more difficult, I think that would be great. Marry score and time together rather than having them conflict. Or like how in Sonic 3, it would sometimes be worth it to go out of your way to get a shield to get through a section faster or take certain shortcuts you can't otherwise. The boost games do that kind of thing pretty well. Speed and score are one and the same.
I did want to mention how the SA1 radar does totally break the scoring system, and how the pieces are spread out in specific ways. But I cut those for time. The Pumpkin Hill example was on me. I was thinking that I'd already spent so long that if I checked a monitor, I'd get an even worse score. It was a bad decision. That's fine and part of the game. But you can't deny that the fact that that sort of thing can happen to a player at all can definitely lead to frustration, especially first time players. The main problem for me is I just don't find the core gameplay to be that fun. It's okay, but not something I want to do very much. The movement mechanics are not very interesting, nor the level design. So the SA1 radar speeding up the process makes it more enjoyable for me, and I think most players who don't care about their rank. I was thinking, it would be pretty sick if they gave Sonic treasure hunting actually. Then you could use spindash jumps and stuff for all kinds of interesting pathing to get from one place to another. I think that would be more fun.
I have played Nights. And I don't like it precisely because of the way it's designed around it's rank system. But to each their own. Thanks for such and in-depth comment. I'm glad you at least found the video interesting.
@@Pariah6950 Yep, I can definitely see you prefer much more freeform style of gameplay, for me I don't really find to be something really *necessary* for a Sonic game to work, so much so that games like Heroes followed SA2's simpler design, not only because it's much easier to develop linear path with straightforward obstacles like somersaulting, homing attack enemies, light dash, etc; but can lead to a much more consistent experience and the lack of freeform exploration certainly doesn't seem to have been that important for the average player because reviews at the time and even nowadays barely comment on the aspects you criticized from Action Race, which is something I find interesting in your video that differentiate from others. There were a lots of reviews that heavily criticized the "slow" platforming of Lost World and praised the more linear high-speed sections like Speed Highway corridors, which is why they pretty much ditched the "platforming" aspect you mentioned for SA2, people weren't really making use of the freeform platforming mechanics of skipping large sections with spindash and such, so why bother creating something that complex? Especially when you can just create straightforward corridors with obstacles that are easy to understand what to do, basically the thing you criticized where you press some buttons to somersault, attack chains of enemies and continue speeding forward. Which is much easier to digest.
The fact that you said that SA2 is not really a platformer makes even more sense when you consider the playstyle is called "Action Race", which is a name that matches perfectly with what you described, you pretty much follow a path and overcome clear obstacles with simple actions. And when thinking about that I understand why they implemented moves like somersault or bounce, if they weren't gonna make much use of physics, then the gameplay would be pretty much just "jump" all the time, so they implemented Light Dash as a main move and not just a gimmick, somersault to defeat shielded enemies and serve as a simple obstacle, bounce, rail grinding...
So it's not a big of a surprise that only SA1 *really* makes use of physics, and even with that I find myself to be still be really simple and can be repetitive (by "repetitive" I do not mean in a bad way, just that you repeat a lot), It's pretty much spindash or spindash + jump all the time, so I don't quite understand why Treasure Hunting or even Shooting could be too basic when It's basically just as simple as Jump and Spindash.
For example, you have the Lock-On mechanic, but the way you approach it can be really different depending on the situation, It's not always just "Lock-On 11 targets and repeat", sometimes you have to release the button earlier or else the enemy will attack you, or you need to avoid a bullet, or you have to do closer-range Punch. This is even more intense on the Dreamcast version because the Lock-On rate is lower, so a lot of times you cannot Lock-On to all enemies in time.
For Treasure Hunting, the punch itself works similar to a Spin Dash, if you start accelerating and punch, you'll get an instant boost of speed that is very fun to perform, there is even some physics involved too, where if you jump at a certain speed on a ledge inclined upwards, you'll jump much higher than if it where on flat surface, you can easily test that at the 12 platforms at the bottom of Mad Space, there is the three-punch combo to destroy objects on the air, Drill Claw to descend at high-speeds, digging mechanic that makes the player be more aware of the details of the scenery, Spiral Upper that is very useful to collect airborne objects. I think it has simple movement that can be just as fun to master as for Action Race characters, each level has it's own gimmick that makes it unique from others, either a chasing beetle, strong wind, planet gravity, reversed hints, meteor rain, hourglass doors, etc. That also applies to other styles.
About the Nights thing, I can understand why not like it, the game is too heavily focused around the ranking system, so much so that I only really started to have FUN when I started going for Ranks, because just passing through sections casually is boring as hell.
I can say SA2 is kinda similar in that regard, the Shooting gameplay is only really engaging if you go for A-Rank, or else you'll just spam the Action Button everywhere, Treasure Hunting can only be "fast-paced" if the player wants to go for A-Rank, and all the Action Link stuff for Action Race like that section of Pyramid Cave I mentioned can only be incentivized if the player goes for A-Rank, or else it will be just a boring linear hallway all the time without much challenge.
That's why I don't think people should limit to just "play the campaign", most of the fun cannot be achieved by just playing a level once, because the game is designed considering the player will inevitably replay the levels alongside doing Chao stuff.
These next three paragraphs should've been in the first comment, but I had to cut due to char limit so I'll put here.
I do agree that Mission 4 is the worst and I wouldn't mind if they just removed it or made them some kind of Mirror Mode or something else to make it more unique, but I really disagree regarding the rest because replaying the same levels is exactly what a replay value is all about, play the game's content again with better results and unlock extra missions with differences here and there, that's what most games I can think about do, I suppose you find repetitive because you literally showed you were playing City Escape over and over and over and over again, when you can easily just switch to Radical Highway, then switch to Final Rush, maybe try Mission Street later... you don't need to play the same level five times in a row, you're just hurting your experience by doing that, I didn't quite understand what were you expecting from replaying a game.
There is a decent amount of unlockables other than Green Hill, there is the Multiplayer costumes, alternate Karts, optional upgrades, new themes to buy, and Chao stuff that appears on the Black Market the more emblems you have.
There is the stage size, which for most levels I think it's fine, but I do agree that the two space levels overexaggerate a bit, especially Mad Space. I think Death Chamber has the perfect size for a big Treasure Hunting level with limited radar, it takes 2 minutes for a skilled player to pass through all areas and they have a decent amount of hazards and enemies, if we think of Death Chamber as 100% in that regard, I would say Meteor Herd is 120% and Mad Space is 170%, that means they are overexaggerating in level size, if Meteor Herd didn't had two floors of balconies at the top that forces the player to manually climb all the way up, it would be 100%, in Mad Space there is only one floor of balconies, but there a a general lack of mobility to traverse between planets, the Capsule Planet is a bit too big and those platforms at the bottom are too spaced from each other, which wouldn't be a big problem if the render distance reached from a far, forcing the player to step in each of them until the objects can be seen on-screen even if the player already know the level.
The last thing I'll add is that hints suffered heavily from poor translation (Mad Space is practically broken from how bad it was translated), if you want to have a much better and faithful experience to how it is in Japanese, I made a mod called "Retranslated Hints", which does exactly that (It's on Gamebanana).
Thanks for the attention.
@@sanglish18 SA1's gameplay is definitely one-note. It is just spindash and spindash jumps all day, every day. But I find the raw speed and using the terrain to manipulate the trajectory of my jumps far more fun than the treasure hunting or mech gameplay. I am well aware of everything you mention mechanic wise. I've 100%ed this game at least 4 times in my life, and put in countless hours. It's just a difference in what we find enjoyable.
I definitely did hurt my own experience by doing all the missions in a stage back to back. In my playthroughs of later games, I've started varying up the levels and it does make things much more bearable. Though, I still wouldn't say it's great. Replay value is not just about having the player replay things with new stuff to do. It's about how much fun it is while replaying stuff. And I really wouldn't say any of mission types are very worthwhile other than the Chao ones and some of the hard stages. It also doesn't help that I find a lot of this gameplay pretty uninteresting to begin with. My criticism was that the 100% experience is filled with a lot of boring stuff and redoing things you've already done, and it did not have to be that way. And again, I know about the other stuff you unlock. But I don't find any of that valuable, so I didn't mention it.
You're the one who made the retranslated hints mod? Cool. I saw that while looking around. Awesome job, dude.
@@Pariah6950 Thanks for the support!
You also do a great job with these videos!
@@sanglish18 Your stuff is well said although Meteor Herd is actually easier to traverse quickly than Death Chamber. You can use the Rockets to easily ascend & then use the Drill Dive to go down & at any point you are diving you can just start gliding around anywhere you need to go. Death Chamber is the Level 4 Stage in 2P for good reason & even then a huge chunk of it is removed. Red-Blue Path is gone & it isn't as easy to go from Blue to Red as it is to go from Red to Blue. I still think of the door into the Blue half as a point of no return after getting all 180 Emblems on 3 occasions. Also we normally don't factor in that the Chao Path was actually part of the level. The Hallway confined structure makes Death Chamber take longer than Meteor Herd to navigate.
24:25 I HAVE ALWAYS AGREED WITH THIS TAKE!
as much as i disagree with your adventure reviews and lean towards the ruby of blue/jeb/j’s reviews analysis of the adventure games, you were actually fair and gave your points well, great video, a definite thumb up and sub from me
also has nothing to do with the review but you are great at these games lol, mostly im just staring at this clean ass gameplay.
Pepsiman clip killed me.
F
The reason A ranks are based on score instead of time is to do with the stage design. SA1 and later Sonic Frontiers shows just how much proper Sonic movement and a good move set can destroy a stage, you can just spamdash or air boost flying over everything skipping tons of the stage. And while that's great for time trials, the ranking system is there to add an additional goal to go for. By forcing players to utilize score gimmicks, special rails, enemy chains, light speed dashing, hidden springs, golden beetles, etc., the designers can get players to actually interact with their stage design. Score-based ranking systems aren't needed and aren't used in the 2D games because 2D is inherently more restrictive, you HAVE to interact with way more of the stage design in 2D whereas you can just skip a ton in 3D. The ranking system BEING based on score makes players evaluate and actually use the stage design, without locking anything substantial behind A ranks behind bragging rights and a shitty 3D reinterpretation of Green Hill act 1
Time attack and score attack are two different high-skill level ways to play, letter ranks just substantiated that skill for score attack
Unleashed Wii and Generations both prove that good design is all that's needed to get players to interact with the stage. To go fast, you must interact with nearly everything in those games. In score based games, you usually have to slow down and go out of your way to score, which is why you can just run past everything when playing for speed. If the obstacles were designed around speed, running past them would be what slows you down.
@@Pariah6950 Right, but SA2's chosen solution is that, since the obstacles aren't designed for speed, they're instead designed for style and score. You can go for a good time OR you can go for a good score. The issue is that you can't do both in one run of a stage, especially since SA2's time bonus is so pitiful- it maxes out at 10,000, which is never enough to get an A rank on it's own, you NEED to get a few THOUSAND additional points for the A rank even if you do get the max time bonus. So I do agree that it's weird the ranking system almost exclusively takes score into account and barely cares about time.
If there were two ranks per stage, one for time and one for score, I wonder how that would change perception of the ranking system...
@@aortaplatinum mission 4 is time attack
@@kenonerboymission 4 is not time attack it's a score attack but do it faster
57:11 ah yes my favorite character In SA2 PEPSI MAAAAN
The mech shooting is honestly my favorite gameplay style in SA2. The ranking system works best in those levels and it doesnt have any major flaw like the radar in the treasure hunting stages or same button syndrome in the speed stages. I know some criticize Tails being in a mech, but I think that's awesome!
Some of the later mech levels are super fun too lile eternal engine cosmic wall mission street and cannons core are really fun in particular
Congratulations on 1,000 subscribers man you deserve it!
Thanks. I'm very happy about it.
@@Pariah6950a world ago
i think SA2 is a prelude to what we eventually got from the boost games in Gens and Unleashed. SA2 is trying to be a linear, obstacle course that tests your reaction time more than anything, but it tries to do that by way of mechanics which are not suited to that at all, those being the mechanics of SA1 and the classics, which were specifically designed for a much more open and explorative platforming experience.
The boost games are trying to do the exact same thing as SA2, but in their case, they are much better designed around mechanics to aid that end. of course, I have my fair share of issues with the boost games, but if I had to pick between SA2's speed stages and the boost gameplay of Gens and Unleashed, the latter two pull off this concept way better than SA2 because they aren't trying to retrofit mechanics from a radically different kind of game into their concept like SA2 did.
Yikes. SA2 > Generations.
Somersaults are used not just for breaking boxes and going under gaps, but for also combat. In a lot of situations it’s safer to somersault then homing attack if you know the GUN robot is going to shoot you before the homing attack reaches. Not to mention how awesome somersault jumps look and feel, definitely one of the most swag moves Sonic has ever done in any game
All of that would add or remove anything to this game the move is useless
Adventure 1 feels really ahead of its time
I always said Sonic's leap into 3D was better than Mario and Zelda's, they called me a madman.
@@millabasset1710 ye you r
It's weird to me it released the same year as Ocarina of Time, Banjo-Kazooie, Crash 3, or Spyro 1.
@@millabasset1710ur f'd if u think that
I never had much of a problem with the ranking system being determined by score because I got a lot of joy out of watching Sonic do cool actions stylishly and I usually mapped my runs based on maximizing the cool factor and experiencing what the already rather short levels have to offer rather than raw speed that'd simply trivialize what the developers worked to set up for us. I can totally understand the frustration of time attacking not being conducive to high ranks, but I also understand why that wasn't the design philosophy by the devs
SA2 is the better game because Vegeta is introduced I mean Shadow.
DBZ Vegeta or Dragon Ball Super Vegeta?
Not funny
Didn’t laugh
@@FattyFatMattvery funny giggled
SA2 is better bc’ we didn’t know it was Vegeta but a hedgehog until the meta era.
And I love how in the sequel they introduce future trunks, I mean silver
I see how you say the ranking system is off becsuse it doesn't prioritize speedrunning which you're right about, but the fun of it is when you can manage to choose what to do for score or whether you can skip it for time instead. Makes it more like a choice game where you can get a good time depending in whether you know where the best score areas are and whether you can skip it or not allowing for you to get an A rank or not, for exampls you can speedrun final rush and always get an A rank. Its really cool.
58:58 wow every other reviewer I’ve heard says this is the best game to 100%
I agree with those reviewers, it shows just how much content and replay value the game has, without 100% it's just 31 levels and iirc 18 bosses, granted, those levels alone are also very replayable but people don't tend to see it like that.
Green Hill Zone is a sick reward. Not very often games give you entirely new levels as a reward.
You are right about the space emerald stages being too big but man when I was a kid I thought it was the coolest thing, loved exploring all around and looking for hidden shit everywhere
This channel is my therapy, I watch those videos about sonic (I love sonic) while drinking some hot chocolate milk
Just "hot chocolate", milk is implied (though you can also use water to make the same drink)
I think most of your criticisms of the gameplay are fair, but regarding the ranking system and general structure of the game I do think SA2 is an Overall improvement when compared to SA1
It's perfectly reasonable to want a good time attack experience in a sonic game, but considering that Speed stages aren't the only playstyle I think the score system is a better fit for the game as a whole. A big problem I have with SA1 is that feels like there's very little incentive to replay the levels other than fastest completion. Frankly, the missions barely change anything for most characters unless you heavily followed the intended path on your first playthrough, and there's no incentive to interact with the level design in new way's. The fact that A ranking a stage actually requires you to interact with and pay attention to the level design makes a second playthrough more worthwhile IMO.
It also ties into the structure a bit. I get that not everyone loves the other playstyles, but the thing is you don't necessarily have to grind through a story in one sitting. When I first played SA2 as a kid, when I got stuck on a hero level, I'd switch to dark or vice versa. And if you're really itching to get back to a Speed stage nothing is stopping you from going to stage select to play mission 2 or A Rank mission 1 if you didn't already. Maybe even gather some Rings or Chaos Drives and Animals for your Chao. My Older Sister played mission 1 of Iron Gate over 100 times before she beat the Last Story for this reason. I'd argue that the game is more fun and better paced if you alternate between Story and the Missions and Chao garden as they unlock instead of grinding through each part all at once. But In Sa1 the game encourages you can play a ton of Sonic levels back to back, and ironically sours the experience for me, even though I agree that they're the best levels in the game. Sure you get to play the best part's of the game uninterrupted, but it's all downhill from there. Some of the weakest levels for the alternate playstyles in SA1 are their first ones, so there's even more of an incentive to stick with or go back to Sonic. And that's before mentioning how much of a slog navigating the hubs with Amy and Big is.
For the record, I would say I somewhat like every playstyle in the Adventure games (yes, even Fishing), but the way SA2 is more streamlined leads to a more balanced gameplay loop. I've never 100% completed SA2, but I usually wind up with about 80 or so emblems between missions and the Chao Garden whenever I replay it, It honestly feels like a chore to replay SA1 from start to credits.
Ngl In my opinion the sonic fanbase is made of 2 extremes
The people who care utmost for that Sonic styled multiple Paths and physics based systems
And the people who love the Fast paced obstacle dodging like in Sa2 and Unleashed
It’s pretty hard to find That gameplay anywhere outside of sonic
Until the Sonic like genre came around ig
Fans of the physics based/open level design tend to like SA1, S&3K, and Gens, whereas fans of the fast paced style tend it like Sonic 2, SA2, and Unleashed
I like both and think each have their values
I really appreciate the Pepsiman cameos.
I just want to say I love your content and this video is no exception. Your more analytical look at Sonic games from a gameplay standpoint rather than a more surface level discussion has always been a breath of fresh air. However, I do think you are looking at this game in a bit of the wrong way. I will preface this by saying I have always been a staunch supporter of SA1 > SA2 and, while I do still believe that to be mostly true, I have found a new found love of this game after finally attempting and getting all 180 emblems and looking at the game from a different lens.
Sonic Adventure 2 is inherently a score attack game, not a time attack game. Which, while different from the norm for the series, and certainly not what you seem to like, is not a bad thing. Honestly, it's not too dissimilar to how Sonic CD presents a more exploration focused Sonic game in stark contrast to the other classic 2D games. Sonic Adventure 2 is just a different flavor of 3D Sonic. When I started to look at the game from this perspective I started to appreciate it much more.
In speed stages, the "pointless" running segments are improved with little challenges like jumping hrough trick rings and hitting ramps. The "pointless" bounce bracelet? Chain kills to rack up a higher score bonus. The set piece moments? Get to the top of the rocket or hit the highest spring at the end of Green forest for more points. Not to mention things like getting a perfect jump off of rails or finding the hidden 1000 point Gold Beetle in every stage.
In Hunting stages, the new radar forces the player to use the hint monitors more, however, there is a score penalty for using too many of them, so it introduces a risk/reward system that encourages learning the level layouts more for higher scores.
And Shooting segments should be obvious in their scoring potential.
Add in the ranking system to incentivise score play, in addition to the multiple missions per level with different rank requirements, and SA2 became a far superior game than the sum of its parts. The depth that the game always seemed to lack to me, finally clicked and my opinion on the game drastically improved. I honestly find it to be the most focused and refined 3D Sonic game, where everything about the game is in-service to the greater design philosophy. Hell, I even like the Chao and how you get the animals, Chaos Drives, and rings in the levels incentivising replaying stages and even adding a bit of exploration (the Lost Chao missions do this too) that the game normally lacks.
Ultimately, I believe your disdain for the ranking system being score based is missing the entire design of the game, in that, despite having a different design to other Sonic games, SA2 is still a fantastic game. Also, as a side note, Sonic Team making a score attack game isn't completely out of left field. NiGHTS and Billy Hatcher are also designed much more around scoring as opposed to time. SA2 is just the only time that they really committed to the idea with Sonic.
Yeah, exactly. As Pariah usually puts it. Judge a game for what it is, not what it isn't. SA2 isnt a time attack game, it's honestly kinda boring if you play like that anyway.
Oh btw, no, I don't like the game btw lmao
SA1 had ACTUAL ADVENTURE ELEMENTS
Ah yes I’ve always loved to collect COINS with Sonic’s CLASSIC shoes to get a A Rank in Sonic Adventure 2
Every time he says coins I cringe.
I guess I'm different than most people in that I actually like all of the gameplay styles in this game. I didn't really mind SA1, but I think this game just did it right. All of the gameplay styles are fun to me. I didn't mind the hub worlds in SA1, but this game does feel much more streamlined. This is the first time you've actually said you like Sonic bosses, wow. I do think I like SA2 more than SA1, but they're both pretty good. And yes, butt rock is good. I'm just a huge metalhead though. I actually kinda like the Chao. I don't mind playing things I actually like. It's not my favorite, but it's still very good in my opinion.
I recently played both SA1 and SA2 back to back and I completely agree that speed gameplay is just better in SA1, but for SA2 treasure hunting is actually my favorite part of the game. I'll have to give the SA1 radar mod a try, but I think the hint monitors is enough to make it really enjoyable. I find them kind of comparable to collecting stars in mario 64 where you get a hint at the start and then you need to find it. As for the mech gameplay I think the levels are designed better in SA2, but I also think gama just feels a lot better to play as so its a bit hard for me to decide on that. Also you will think this is a terrible idea but last time I played SA1 I tried to return to the chao garden after every stage and was able to complete everything for it before I beat the game, so no grinding was necessary and was amusing to figure out how to get back to one at some points in the game. As for SA2 I think the grind of the chao garden synergizes with how much you need to replay levels for ranks, so if you're going for 100% and you're going back to chao garden after each stage you should be able to get all that done as well pretty easily(not that you'd want to).
For this playthrough, I actually tried to do Chao legit at first. I was regularly returning to the garden, during the story and while going for A ranks. And I was using a mod that dramatically increases how quickly Chao level up. And even then, by the time I had all the other Emblems my Chao was nowhere near where it needed to be to win everything. Then it did just devolve into grinding, and I said screw it. Might as well save myself time and just get the stats up with the editor. I cut that whole part of the video out for length because the end conclusion is the same. I hate grinding so I don't like Chao.
I love both adventure games so much as they were both childhood games, i actually 100% both of them and for me i got the most out of these games by doing it. It was pretty difficult but it was so satisfying.
100% the game did give me a much bigger understanding of the game on both negatives and positives and this video gave me a detailed opposite opinion. While i dont agree with everything in this video, i know these adventure games arent for everyone
As a modern day, 8 months after this video is uploaded, commenter, I think the very reason I like this game is why I like Frontiers as it's out now. I get what he means on the surface it really does seem as though it's nothing but QTEs. But I think that's the genius of it. It's simple and seems as though it's a lot of interactable cutscenes but the point in my view's case is that even that can be thrilling and challenging when you're actually using the freedom of Sonic's move set, even if limited in a way , to do what Sonic has always done in its own way. That's why I just genuinely love this one.
In my honest opinion, The Perfect Adventure Formula would be SA1 Sonic with bounce and insta lightspeed dash (no summersault, just make Sonic roll like Tails and Knuckles if already going at max speed), SA2 Knuckles with the original attacks (the 1-2-3 punches, the roll and heat attacks, maybe giving full i-frames to the latter), SA1 Tails with buffed flight time and VERY nerfed air acceleration (not touching max speed), SA1's open level design and hub worlds, and SA2's score/ranking system. Shadow and Rouge are just clones unless you take a STH 06 (or P-06) approach, and it would be fair to leave Eggman as his own thing.
For extras, SA1 Amy but faster (like, slower than Knuckles but not slower than Gamma) and with a double jump, and... well, Gamma is fundamentally different to mechs in many aspects, but Gamma's dead (unless you go with Chaos Gamma, who's not even the same, at that point you could just go with Omega), so I guess you'll have to go with mechs, sadly... and please give Big a reworked fishing system that isn't dictated by RNG and let it be an optional side mode UNRELATED to the main plot, maybe get an emblem per level? idk, Big shouldn't be a part of the main game but that doesn't mean he shouldn't stick around, I really liked his concept of being the exact opposite to Sonic.. but maybe he's already ok with cameos.
although, I wouldn't trade air-cancels just to get some extra height when you can do the same with a spin jump... maybe double pressing the action button could work?
Even when I disagree, I can see where he's coming from... interesting to finally see some of the detractors of the game's points more than ever. Not saying Pariah is, just that over the years of not really understanding and not trying to, I can still see my view and see theirs at the same time. Great video. Love when vids can make me think like that it's engaging.
I just love playing SA1 because of the freedom in areas like the hub for mystic ruins or the second part of Speed Highway. SA2 feels more rigid, like I am forced to things the way the game intends me to, Knuckles stages in SA2 don't even let you collect the emerald pieces out of order for crying out loud
I love SA1 it's my favorite Sonic game Adventure 2 is slowly becoming my favorite again like it once was personally I'm indifferent about the gameplay styles for both games I enjoy both they offer something that the other doesn't and have their strengths and weaknesses much like the classic games that proceed them my personal favorite classic Sonic game is Sonic CD Adventure 1 and 2 are both outstanding games that offer gameplay styles that are up to personal preference either you like one over the other or you're like me and you like both that's why Sonic is beloved his games all have different styles that offer something for everyone he has his bad games like any franchise but he has many gems.
Hey dude. This is a good video you've made. Good job! 👍
Sonic Adventure 2 is a good game, but it's not the greatest Sonic game. That honor goes to Sonic Robo Blast 2.
agreed
while this is my favorite sonic game (with only unleashed being close behind it) and while i also disagree with a lot of what you said, i do think most of your criticisms are valid, it's either just things i don't mind or find as big of an issue as you do because of our different tastes in what we want/looking for out of a sonic game. overrall i enjoyed the video and your other sonic videos as well
In many ways, I've found that the classic sonic games and SA1 are games about going fast. SA2 seems more like a game about looking fast. It doesn't mean it's bad, but personally, I prefer the more interactive nature of the previous games. Also, I love that your using the normal shoes mod. Literally thought I was the only person who likes it. :)
Yeah. I'm not a fan of the soap shoes. They are too big and way overly detailed. And the original shoes from SA2's beta are some of the best looking ones they've done on a 3D model, imo. You can also see I've got the upgrade models disabled. I think the designs get way too busy when you strap a bunch of junk all over the characters. It really makes them stand out when standing next to Amy or Tails out of his mech.
@@Pariah6950 I don't think the soap shoes are overly designed. Too big? Idk. But overly designed? No. It can be resigned to look better for Sonic, but the shoes were added for promotional material later in development, so take that at what you will. :p
Good video! While I don't agree with every point, you do make many fair criticisms. Though I personally prefer SA2 over 1, I'll agree I enjoy how Sonic plays in the 1st one more than the 2nd. However, I've always enjoyed 2 a little more because, to me, it feels better to get a good rank or do a good run of a level. Plus level design wise the other two play styles greatly benefit from having levels made just for them instead of ripping areas from Sonic's levels like in SA1. Both games are great, but to each their own!
Idk I kinda switch between preferring SA1 or SA2 on a regular basis but Gamma is more fun than the SA2 shooting stages imo. It would be nice if Gamma's levels had a ranking system but whatever. My main issue with SA2 is them locking an entire stage behind 100%. And the 1-button thing but as you said that can be fixed.
Last thing I wanted to say is that I much prefer just playing the treasure hunting hard mode stages twice than wandering around looking for the Chao.
So according to you, having optional, real 100% completion rewards in games is a bad thing?
@@paulbell3682 no, but 100%ing this game sucks
@@Laekith It's not that hard & getting all of the A ranks is easy as long as you know what you're doing & where all of the gold beetles are.
@@paulbell3682 finding the Chao is hard for me and not fun, also the Chao Garden is boring as hell
@@Laekith You need the mystic melody ability for finding lost Chao & you don't have to put that much effort into Chao raising if you're just going for the emblems. Chao raising in Sonic Adventure is also required 100% completion in that game as well.
There's very little rose tint on your goggles compared to when I played these games.
You've really peeled this one to its core parts.
Both Adventure games are fun to me, and I've been playing as dev intent. Felt I'd go off course by spinning way back then.
@The lost bits On the contrary, I've had this as a very nostalgic game personally. There's been an argumet for a a while that only "x" stages are good in SA2, and that can be different person to person. Felt like I was watching one of the most objective povs yet here referring to level design. I would have enjoyed more platforming and navigation. The controls and setpieces are deserving of it. I was laughing at how many single purpose almost qte commands you have in this game. They flow nicely enough when you're in a level.
Coming from the story video, very excited!
This the one pariah video where the sonic fans of this game are defending it like an unborn child and its Pretty funny 😂
LMFAO
You can see there mouths in the SA2 intro 😂
Not sure if you know this or even care about it but what the heck, I am going to talk about it anyway. But yeah, there were only 1/5 of Sonic Adventure developers who worked on Sonic Adventure 2 and the whole development process was pretty chaotic. (as a matter of fact, the whole situation regarding SEGA was pretty chaotic at the time) And I imagine that this game was probably rushed too.
I'd say it's a miracle it is as good as it is. It is still rather rough and it's kinda half and half in terms of being better than SA1 which was also a pretty mess of a game but things could have been way worse.
SA2 is better.
Gameplay wise I think they both have their ups and downs along with things that they both do better than the other.
When it comes to Story, structure, level Design & music.... Sonic Adventure 2 wins in these categories no competition.
Also Chao Garden in SA2 is so much better.
The thing about reusing assets is that every video game company does this to save money. It’s not just unique to Sonic.
Many people complain that it’s lazy, but if you differentiate the levels enough most gamers wouldn’t even notice it. It’s just a smart way for companies to save time and money on their games.
The score reliant rank makes sense for Knuckles because the levels are fucking sprawling, but in the linear hallway levels for Sonic and Shadow what's there to explore?
i'm playing sa2 for the first time and it just doesnt "tick" for me. just love sa1 but have my complaints about sa2, mostly the same ones as you. great video!
Yeah,as someone who played sa2 first I also have my complaints about sa1,probabaly would’ve been the same as you had I played adventure 1 first though.
the way SA2 and CD are my fav sonic games
28:23 literally gagged when i saw that e rank
Right? What a terrible run that was, according to the game.
I would definitely suggest at least playing every mission… personally what I did is just shoot for C ranks just to kinda prove to myself I’m familiar with these levels and can get through them somewhat efficiently… and if I had fun trying to do that in a particular mission or felt like I was close I’d go for B or A because I quickly realized going for all A ranks was just gonna be way too sweaty for me to enjoy
I like sa2 more but both of them are my favorite game so my preference is what I feel like that day
The treasure hunting in sa2 is not simple, it's a clever mixture of using critical thinking to solve puzzles and riddles(the hint monitors). They are super useful for finding the pieces of the master emerald especially in stages like death chamber. Especially in the dream Cast version where they get rid of the exclamation mark.
In pumkin hill instead of gliding around like a nimrod you could've checked the hints and it would've likely said sad face and you would've been like oh so you go back to that pumpkin mountain and you find the shard. Or you get another hint on top of that and it will specify where it is.
It seems like you don't understand the treasure hunting in this game, or you just didn't decide to get it. Also emerald shards are constantly changing places if you get the first emerald place the other two will switch places
Or how the Treasure Hunting Stages are usually divided into three sections usually and the emeralds are spread to each of those areas like in Pumpkin Hill for example (Train Mountain, Church Mountain, Pumpkin Mountain) so it takes knowing the shortcuts to three major areas to know the fastest way between them and trial and error to know the spawn location of the first emerald to get it going and having a sharp eye to see emeralds floating without the radar beeping to get a Perfect score on the way.
Hi i just want to say I really love your content! Only just discovered the channel. Hope you keep it up 😊
wholesome comment
I like finding emeralds out of sequence without the radar! It's fun! Once the stages get bigger it becomes impractical though, for sure.
Honestly, I do still prefer the variety in this game at least to the other 3d Sonic titles I've played. Playing Sonic heroes lately, I've found it pretty monotonous and the fact that the game never really changes its style makes it a little exhausting. I like that the game takes time to breathe without forcing me into adventure fields.
Would have been nice if they built on the last story and let the alt playstyles exist outside of the treasure hunting.
Love this game. Never went for 100 percent or A rank because it never felt like it was worth the suffering.
I'm gonna disagree about the somersault and bounce. I'm glad they gave Sonic more moves to change up the gameplay so you're not just barreling through everything with little to no variance. By adding unique obstacles that can only be addressed by specific moves, it makes the game feel more rhythmic when trying to go fast and stops you from just spamming the spindash for every obstacle like in SA1. I do think the somersault should have been replaced by rolling up into a ball though, kinda like how you can in Sonic Robo Blast 2.
I also don't really like how you're criticizing the game for telling player "use the b button here" via obstacles when you can reduce literally every aspect of a level's design to to requests like that. It's just a weak, hypercritical point that means nothing because it can be applied to anything.
To be fair, most moves in sa2 are unlockable so when it came to light speed dashing in city escape, i don't agree but i see your point
My one major disagreement is I would definitely play a game that was just the hunting gameplay fleshed out. I could imagine a hunting stage/rougelike thing it sounds pretty fun actually.
Bruh, everyone gotta stick to their own opinion, some say both suck, others say sa 1 is better than sa 2, or vise versa.. either way, whatever intricate details you or anyone will point out.. just stick to what you like… cool video 🔥💪🏽
@9:38 He just slid I never knew you could do that.
It’s a mod
@@simonplatt5108 Yeah I realize that after coning back now. Although that does happen in base game but it's just a really quick animation then it quits. Just did it in crazy gadget last night on accident when I rolled
While I think you do have some valid criticisms, I really feel like for the speed stages, you are blaming the game for the fact that you're too good at it and it's no longer fun anymore, because your description of "press the button at the right time" does not at all reflect how the average player experiences these stages
WHY DOES SONIC HAVE HIS NORMAL SHOES ON IN THE SA2 CUTSCENE???
probably a mod but its fun to over react
It's an error that only appears in the Dreamcast version.
@@paulbell3682
Nope, im not talking about the opening cutscene. I knew about that.
Im talking about the cutscene that is exclusive to battle.
@@TheDanimatorsChannel What cutscene?
@@paulbell3682
The first one you see in the video, the opening to adventrure 2 battle
SA2 is better. SA1 had a good Sonic and Knuckles campaign, the rest was either decent or mediocre
"hitting buttons when I'm supposed to hit buttons"
you mean like a video game?
That's such a fallacy of an argument. Unless you're an actual speedrunner, most games cannot be reduced to a series of timed button presses.
Most games require the player to figure out what to do in the current situation. What buttons should you even be pressing. In lots of games, there's not one correct answer.
And skill is often needed. You need to aim in shooters, move precisely in platformers, reaction speed, timing, etc. This game rarely requires anything like that.
@@Pariah6950 in hard mode it requires these things a lot
@Pariah6950 im a year late, but thats just objectively not true, he met your fallacy with his own
I got stuck on pumpkin hill because of the stupid grave digging spot being picked for one of the shards.
I do prefer SA1 although I haven't beaten it yet but I did beat SA2. I didn't really like the gameplay in SA2 as much as SA1, I liked how SA1 had more freedom with movement and more open levels. May or may not be a hot take but I prefer SA1's OST but don't get me wrong, SA2's OST is a banger too, I just prefer a lot more stage tracks and vocal tracks from SA1.
SA1 feels like a transition piece, SA2 is when modern sonic became it's own thing. SA2 Is more successful at doing what it set out to do, but SA1 is the only 3D game setting out to follow the genesis games, SA1 while flawed is the closest to genesis games then any other official 3D games. It's a mess but it's also unique.
47:57 when you said this I got extremley excited just thinking about it Lol
I think I genuienly like the treasure hunting levels more than the speed stages, even with the nerfed radar, which I personally prefer
If ur saying that this game is overall linear and automated (for the speed levels) then I don’t wanna imagine what you’ll say about the boost games. Lol
@@themissingbits6375 Well they are mostly considered like that in the community unfortunately. Lol
@@themissingbits6375 Lmao
@@themissingbits6375 yeah forces was harder than the other boost games
@@dontbecomelgbt What? Are you deranged?
i disagreed with a decent amount of points but then i thought it over and i think i agree with baaasically everything here- besides the fact that i love gamma’s gameplay lol
Two questions:
1. Why is the Character Select mod essential for Sonic Adventure 2? You can’t finish the speed levels as the non-speed characters, the mech stages as non-mech characters, or the treasure hunting stages as non-treasure hunting characters. So what’s the point.
2. Why is patcher onto Sonic Runners? How do you use patcher for Sonic Runners Revival?
id like to give an honourable mention to the second sonic boss in SA1, in which you can spam the homing attack to fuck and kill eggman in like 30 seconds. yes it's a glitch. yes it's funny as fuck. moving on
I think SA2 is probably the most refined 3d sonic game, especially from a user experience. I love SA1, it's one of my favorite sonic games, but unless you really love and dig into the sonic gameplay, there's really not a lot too it, which I think is the biggest reason people say it aged poorly. It's really janky, most of the level design doesn't work for any character besides sonic, the adventure aspects of it (hub world, other gameplay styles, cutscenes, etc) are not very engaging and get away from the good parts, and I think for a lot of people, the game lost a lot of It's shine when either they replayed it, or played it after playing other 3d platformers. Luckily, the sonic gameplay has a lot of depth with it's movement, and you can really go wild with it, which I think is super fun, but I understand if you can't get into that, or you prefer to just play games as they are....it's really hard to get into and enjoy.
Whereas SA2, there's a lot less jank (probably the least 3d janky sonic game), the cutscenes and overall presentation of its story is actually really good for a 3d platformer even now (even if you don't like the story), I think there was a ton more thought put into the design of the treasure hunting and mech stages, the speed characters have better game feel, and I think that really appeals to people. I see why it's so beloved, the game just feels like more of a thought out and planned game. For me personally, I don't find the sonif gameplay style interesting to go back too, I think the mech and treasure hunting stages feel a lot more intrusive despite overall being much better, and well I find its presentation to be really appealing, ultimately, I don't play platformers for cutscenes, so outside of a first playthru, I'm not getting much out of it.
So I think kind of as a result, people who are more into just, a refined, fundamentally solid game, and maybe don't go back to sonic games that often, SA2 is a much better game for them, and I think that's a lot more people who are more into the fun, deep, and really replayable gameplay, despite the kinda bad overall experience.
This is pure glaze sa2 has pretty jank movements and controls the stages don't add to the moveset it's just do the thing and go
@Lonelysum Yeah, I replayed the game a bit after I commented that, it definitely has a lot more jank than I remembered, and when I said it was the most refined...I definitely was moreso thinking up till Unleashed and on, Colors and especially Generations are much better.
But still, I think SA2 has a lot of positives, like I said, but I'm a bit colder on the game nowadays. It's never been my favorite or anytning anyway, but I think I overcorrected, cus I used to hate the game when I was a kid after playing SA1 lol.
Well, maybe I'm weird, Maybe not, But the treasure hunting stages (especially wild canyon and Security Hall) are my favorite levels in the game, And this is my favorite sonic game of the bunch, and oddly enough, Sonic CD is my 2nd favorite classic (behind Sonic 3), is that weird?
I'm not gonna go all defensive and say that you didn't raise some good points, I HATE the mech Gameplay because the controls are janky and I can never get the lock on shots to do what I need them to, and The speed stages are... I just find them boring, except city escape, radical highway, and weapons bay. Back to the main point, I'll just say that this game has a lot of really low points (Final rush, final chase, crazy gadget, And Canon's core are the worst offenders I can think of), but the highs of the levels I mentioned before make the game worth playing for me.
So yeah, you're entitled to your opinion that SA 1 is better, and in some aspects, I'd agree, but the highest highs of SA2 will always make this my favorite sonic game, and actually my favorite game ever made.
Ps. Seriously am I weird for loving the treasure hunting stages and sonic Cd? Maybe I'm just more into exploration than anything else
18:40 PEPSIMAN!
Alright.
On the "it's not really a platformer because you just do things the game tells you" - so... like a platformer then? This complaint is kinda weird. Like, let's take Ratchet and Clank, for instance, a 3D platformer that didn't get a polarizing reputation over the years. There are multiple sequences in that game where you have no other choice but to use a swingshot. In fact, while each level in Ratchet and Clank has multiple paths, the game is actually fairly linear because each of those paths leads to a different objective and on them there are no sidepaths to speak of, other than an occasional secret. Does it make it a bad game because it's linear and you do precisely what the game wants you to do?
Just because you do the things the game expects you to do, it doesn't mean you can't fail. Even the homing attack chains you can still fuck up (as many a SA2 player would attest) if your timing or range are off and sometimes it means you'll die, sometimes it slows you down and puts you on a slower path... which do actually exist in this game. I was surprised to hear you say that they don't exist when throughout the video you took some paths I never did, like, say, that very first light dash chain that I never knew existed. They are shorter and less pronounced than in SA1, probably due to Dreamcast getting old while the game's graphics have gotten an upgrade, but they are definitely there, there are sequences where you can either run or rail grind on the side, like in the Jungle stages or in Metal Harbour and if you manage to pull it off well, grinding can be faster, net you some score and put you towards a faster route, but it's very risky.
The scoring system also does, in fact, encourage speed - killing enemies in a quick succession and doing things like perfectly pulling off a somersault nets you a score bonus, as does good rail grinding.
But on the Sonic games always encouraging you to complete the level as quickly as possible prior to SA2... did they really? Sonic 1 had you collect fifty rings in a level and slow down for the giant ring in the end, Sonic 2 had star post checkpoints act as special stage portals that you had to stop in order to access, Sonic 3&K encouraged you to explore and look for giant rings and Sonic CD... do we even have to say anything on Sonic CD?
That rocket in Metal Harbor is such a perfect example because what you call BORING, I call really damn tense because... it was really difficult for me to make it in time to the top ramp and messing up means you lose for good, you need to start the whole stage over because your entire score resets. Score attacking a lot of these levels is anything but easy, your timing and reaction have to be nigh-on perfect at times. SA2 is very much a risk vs reward style game and I don't think you give it nearly enough credit in this regard. It's not deep, but it's not shallow and one-note either, it's philosophy is like that of an arcade game.
On the "they could've just made it 100% speed gameplay and it wouldn't have been a problem" - I would disagree there as well. You don't notice that the game reuses assets all the time because the gameplay styles are so different, but it'll get way, way more noticeable if they would be constantly used in the same ways. That's... why we got new gameplay styles constantly and why there wasn't such a thing as a full-on linear one-style 3D Sonic game. Alternate gameplay styles also help bring more traditional platforming into it because speeding and platforming just doesn't combine nearly as well in 3D as it does in 2D, which is also why we got different gameplay styles for the Blue Blur himself with the Adventure gameplay, the Boost gameplay of Unleashed and its follow-ups or the fucking trash gameplay or Lost World. Having those slower styles also helps the pacing of the game because one non-stop rush after another can just wear a player down. Now granted, there are hiccups in pacing like that one example that you pointed out where there were several Tails and Knuckles stages in a row (and Shadow definitely needed more stages), but it's a problem of execution, not the concept. Having just one gameplay style... would require for the entire Speed gameplay to be singificantly slower in order to pad out the length and not overwhelm the players with a constant rush, but then people would end up complaining that Sonic is so damn slow and boring now. Either that, or, well, you end up with a game that's over way too quickly and doesn't let you breath.
Not to mention that... you know, SA1 also forced you to play every style if you wanted to actually complete the game, so that example doesn't really work.
I think a better solution for the treasure hunting stages would be to keep the SA1 Radar, but have 5 or 6 shards instead of 3. This would make the levels take longer than SA1 but still mean you don’t have to retread old ground.
Would a solution of splitting the ranking system into two ranks systems (time and score)?
The game already does that using the mission mode.
this video would have a lot of great criticisms but i cannot look past the fact that you called rings coins for almost the entire video
It's a joke about how people confuse them uronically
@@mrpiccionedivino5598 well shit then i wish he said it like a joke at least
I dont think game does not live up to they hype
The reason the unleashed works with this type of gameplay is because of how engaging it is. You never get a second to breath and every button press matters.
A lot of really good points, especially the comparison between the speed levels of SA1 and 2, with the latter being much more shallow and uninteresting. Definitely agree.
On the other hand, I'd say the other gameplay styles were also way worse in Sa2 compared to their SA1 equivalents. The treasure hunting for instance just drags on and it's way too tedious in SA2. While the mechs in SA2 is so clunky there's little joy in just controlling it, compared to the way faster and more agile Gamma. Ultimately, I don't think any of the gameplay styles other than the speed one, are any good and really have no place in a Sonic game, it just doesn't resemble Sonic gameplay. So the fact that 2/3rds of the game consist of them, makes SA2 one of the weakest Sonic games in the series.
I wholeheartedly, completely disagree.
It doesnt resemble sonic gameplay cause they arent sonic
@@RaginDragn24
That's a very weak excuse, considering that Shadow ain't Sonic either yet his gameplay resembles Sonic gameplay still. Not to mention Tails, Knuckles in s3k, advance games and Ray, Mighty in Mania, all had Sonic gameplay despite not being Sonic.
So just because it's not Sonic doesn't excuse including awful non-Sonic gameplay in a Sonic game. That's the kind of practice that made people detest the other characters.
@@snakey888 With the expection of Shadow,(who is pretty 8much a clone of Sonic), you only listed stuff from 2D games, which have a completely different design philosophy than 3D.(
@@xraiderblack1850
You are right, which is probably a major reason for why Sonic has struggled in 3d since the very beginning.
kinda unrelated to the whole video but how come when i try to play sonic adventure 2 on pc itll just randomly freeze. There can still be audio but the screen will be stuck on one frame, someone please help?
Don't run the game in fullscreen. Use bordless. That fixed crashing for me.
@@Pariah6950 awww man really? Well that didn’t work for me but at least it worked for you so at least something good came from this😅
For the Treasure Hunting Levels I wish there was an optional upgrade you could find in the second to last levels, where it works as an "Upgraded Radar" where all 3 are unlocked. The Meteor Stages are way too big but I feel like having an upgrade like that in a semi-obvious spot could be better,
But then again maybe they wouldn't want you to use that upgrade in other stages, so maybe they could've made it a level exclusive sort of thing, if they were able to program that
Either way, SA2 for me is a good game, although there are things they've done that was questionable
Is SA1 better than SA2?
*Always has been.*
How did you gloss over the light dash not charging anymore and being incorporated into the flow state? If you don't use the light dash in sa2 you have to be an amateur. What about bouncing onto rails to gain speed?
Edit: I always thought the SA1 radar would have been a good upgrade around the halfway point. Would've made the sunglasses matter
I cut some stuff for time. Those are pretty minor things that I didn't feel were that worth mentioning. I show them in the footage enough that I thought that got those things across.
@@Pariah6950 fair enough. I think the light dash being implemented into actual level design at least is pretty notable, but I listen without visuals so I didn't see. The first game has it more like a lock and key type of thing.
and i was expecting for you to like the speed stages becuz you like playing sonic time attack
44:13 WTF is this
Yes, it is.
Mission 4 is timeattack dude...
no, it's still a score attack with a time limit
You forget that the Sonic adventure one and two games is when they first started having video games on 3d
Like Mario 64 that time paid for video games.
Sonic is all about replayability and trial-and-error. And you forget that you are only forced to play the mech stages and hunting stages once. Score Attack is always what the devs intended since Sonic 1, but you are free to play the game with custom home rules for time attack.
It would still be better if you could just never play the other gameplay types if you dont want to like adventure 1
So score attack is always what the devs actually intended for Sonic.
Why such a focus on speed for marketing then? Why make level design that reward you with speed and shortcuts?
Is the games were never about speed, why'd they mislead the public so much about what Sonic is all about?
Cant wait for the story video
*RINGS *RINGS *RINGS
hey, is there a way for you to show me your mod loader because i would really like to try all these mods out. thanks.
If you want the mods, it's all in the description. For load order, I haven't had any issues with the mostly default alphabetized order. Only a couple of mods require a specific order. Just read the mod pages and it's pretty easy to setup. Also be sure to configure the mods that can to get things how you want them.
@@Pariah6950 alright, thank you!
@@Pariah6950 sorry to keep bugging, but by any chance do you remember what mods needed to be moved around in a specific or no?
@@hbghnfcats I can send you a picture of my mod order if you want. Hit me up on Twitter.
@@Pariah6950 alr my user is @BayYnes
SA2 is Way Better. Both have their Bullshit but SA2’s Bullshit is Less bad and it also has More Good.
Edit: Ok after replaying SA2 I can confidently say it’s only got a few problems and it’s way better than SA1. Freakin awesome game definitely the best sonic game ever made
I agree and I disagree with his take on the platforming and his take on the score attack system. Git gud
@@elibonham4388 Are you telling me to get good?
@@Terminal_Apotos no I didn't mean it that way
Sonic robo blast 2 when? /j
Oh, it's coming.
@@Pariah6950 Good thing you shot a good chance of pre 2.3 SRB2 before they gut the physics and levels and make it more Classic and thus invalidate opinions
@@Pariah6950 OH SNAP hype as hell for this!