American Automaker focus on Fat profits. Also the cost structure is very high. High costs, Fat profits are the biggest culprits. Plus Marketing, Sales person fees, other taxes and regulation shoots total costs to sky high
Saying batteries have gotten cheaper but it doesn't matter is really an out there statement. When Tesla made the first Roadster, their 50kWh pack would cost today adjusted for inflation 100 000 dollars, now a 50kWh pack costs anywhere between 5000 to 10000 depending on chemistry and where it's made, if it's LFP in China it will be cheaper, if it's NMC and made in the US it will be more expensive. You can't take out cost of labor, energy, land and regulation nor scale. Oil is cheaper in countries with large oil deposits, likewise batteries are cheaper in China because they make the most in the world. Build 2TWh in US and then you can be competitive.
I find it amussing as the Musk Rats gloat as the giga mold fabricates half the car shell in each pass. Back in the realworld that style of fabrication means even minor crashes now produce a write off as the car frame can't cheaply be repaired. Your insurance is up due to this alone.
Electronics are not expensive, a high end laptop motherboard with chips and everything might cost manufacturers 200 to 300 dollars tops, you can't tell me that's expensive. Their challenge is in software and employing great designers and engineers to optimize the code and make the UI usable, Chinese car makers copied Tesla or mobile devices with touch screens so theirs appear at least modern and competent, most legacy car makers just defaulted to third parties like Carplay. Then consumers complain the software is bad, expensive and not worth the cost. It's a self reinforcing feedback loop of incompetence all so car makers don't spend those 300 dollars on computing power but 30 dollars to cut costs.
A laptop motherboard is relatively simple compared to the electronics of an entire car. Imagine at least a laptop motherboard in every place of the car that has a screen (every infotainment center) and then at least an additional 10 boards in various places (power train being the most complicated of course) for the various sensors and actuators and lights and controls all over the car. And then add wiring harness design to interconnect all those parts together and do so in a way that minimises interference from one board to the next and that also remains safe under any adverse events such as thunderstorms for example. One of the safety requirements for example is that if a thunder falls next to the car then the electronics should not pick up this extra radiation (albeit that's more of a concern if you have a wireless charging receiver on the bottom of the car). The more electronics you add in a car the more the cost of integration and testing goes up for *both* software AND hardware. It's like buying laptop parts from 10 different suppliers and making sure that they all work together under any and all circumstances.
@@InTimeTraveller I was talking about the newly added tech which is supposed to drive up cost but in reality it is not since it is a fraction of the cost of the car. As for what you mentioned, those logic and chips existed before EVs and are old and obsolete tech that costs cents per unit and likely, combined do not make more than 100 dollars if that, the coper wire harness is likely more expensive than the fokin, idk 150nm chips for those sensors even those factories have stopped making them and car makers are being forced to update them to 5 year old tech. The electronics are not increasing costs in a significant way, this is a bold faced lie. Is it more expensive than not having them? Sure but it will not make a 40k car cost 20k, maybe 39k at most, meanwhile if it did have them they can ask 45k and get a higher profit.
@@eternitynaut as I said the newly added tech is not just one laptop motherboard, it's lots of different electronic components spread out through the car. The cost of this hardware may vary, but the cost of an electronic board is most certainly not just the bill of materials for the board, I should know, I'm an electronics engineer and I work as a test engineer and I test various complex electronic products. The cost is also in EMI design and test, safety testing, production testing, production yields, etc. The ICs themselves may not be manufactured on bleeding edge process nodes from TSMC, but they are not obsolete 150nm processes either. Some simple ICs such as eg CAN/LIN bus controllers or PMICs are going to be manufacture in older nodes for sure, like 90nm or more likely 45 or 28nm nowadays. But even if ICs are cheap, designing and manufacturing a PCB for automotive is not, you have to adhere to multiple standards (safety and otherwise). There is also a shitton of logic in the car when you have multiple infotainment systems such as a screen in the driver dashboard, a screen in the infotainment system, infotainment systems in the back of the cabin etc. Also the wiring harness is not just add some copper and that's it. When you have back cameras for parking for example, you need a high speed interface cable between the back camera and the main screen. Similarly high speed interfaces are necessary for all the infotainment systems in the car, then you need the CANbus system for the control of the car (communication between engine, driver dashboard, steering wheel, door locks, braking, acceleration, inverter, motor controllers, distance sensors, airbag sensors, mirrors, lights, windows, etc all of which are now electronically controlled) and a wiring harness for the power train (from battery to inverter to motors), and all of these need to be designed and placed together carefully so that you don't have EMI from the motors interfering with the cameras for example or worse, with the CAN bus network. And the more electronics you add, you exponentially increase the testing and debug time for integrating all these components together for both hardware and firmware. A car has thousands of interconnected components together, and having all of these components interoperate with each other is much more challenging engineering wise than making a laptop motherboard. The point is that you don't need a car to have all these things though. You can have a car that is not a gadget and is instead just a normal commuting car.
@@InTimeTraveller feel freeto search the node of those IC from articles during the p an de mic with the chip shortage when fabs stopped making them and refused to restart production and wsnted to upgrade to newer and smaller transistor sizes. I said q50nm but it would not be strange if some chips were even double. Let me repeat that most of the sensors used today existed and were jn use even 15 years ago. What is new? Infotainment and self driving features. The infotainment side might add at most a couple hundred dollars. The self driving part depends on the solution, if it uses lidar, radar and cameras, could be a couple thousand, if it s just cameras it will be around 1k or even less. This ofc does not include software costs as those are not transparent to the public. Ultrasonic sensors predate self driving tech and were installed in econoboes as parking sensors so those should be cheap as well, with some exceptions. In the end though, these are either upgrade trim features or not available for cheap cars electric or otherwise.
The contention that it's 'competition' that makes Chinese EVs cheaper is silly. 40% of the production price was subsidized early on. Do that in America and everyone would be driving EVs because they would be the cheapest.
@@whitlockbr bro also a subside of 40% looks not true, so far I founded on internet that China gave around 2.7k (dollars) per vehicle and actually that subside ended in 2021
Appreciate the detailed breakdown! Just a quick off-topic question: My OKX wallet holds some USDT, and I have the seed phrase. (alarm fetch churn bridge exercise tape speak race clerk couch crater letter). How should I go about transferring them to Binance?
You're kidding right? Chinese auto workers make $4 an hour and work 9am to 9pm 6 days a week. US auto workers work fewer hours and make more per hour. - Gen Z Republican
The lower production cost is not as affected by labour as we're led to believe. The manufacturing of cars in China is highly automated. From what I recall, labour is about 12-15% of production and that does include a significant portion of highly skilled personnel - designers and engineers - who get paid comparatively or more than western tech labour. Automakers benefit from being vertically integrated (These companies own the mines or have exclusive arrangements to mines for battery production) and use fewer parts in manufacturing - giga castings similar to Tesla. It's also not simple for Legacy automakers to repurpose their factories to make EVs, these need significant retooling. The Chinese are already at economies of scale in all these areas. And then there is the software and computers behind it all. Legacy automakers just suck at making software.
Chinese cars are not just "good enough". Anyone who lived in China can say that they are much more full of tech than other countries
Gajin CEO dan manajernya terlalu tinggi😊
American Automaker focus on Fat profits. Also the cost structure is very high. High costs, Fat profits are the biggest culprits. Plus Marketing, Sales person fees, other taxes and regulation shoots total costs to sky high
Saying batteries have gotten cheaper but it doesn't matter is really an out there statement. When Tesla made the first Roadster, their 50kWh pack would cost today adjusted for inflation 100 000 dollars, now a 50kWh pack costs anywhere between 5000 to 10000 depending on chemistry and where it's made, if it's LFP in China it will be cheaper, if it's NMC and made in the US it will be more expensive. You can't take out cost of labor, energy, land and regulation nor scale. Oil is cheaper in countries with large oil deposits, likewise batteries are cheaper in China because they make the most in the world. Build 2TWh in US and then you can be competitive.
I find it amussing as the Musk Rats gloat as the giga mold fabricates half the car shell in each pass. Back in the realworld that style of fabrication means even minor crashes now produce a write off as the car frame can't cheaply be repaired. Your insurance is up due to this alone.
check out Aptera which is my next vehicle
Electronics are not expensive, a high end laptop motherboard with chips and everything might cost manufacturers 200 to 300 dollars tops, you can't tell me that's expensive. Their challenge is in software and employing great designers and engineers to optimize the code and make the UI usable, Chinese car makers copied Tesla or mobile devices with touch screens so theirs appear at least modern and competent, most legacy car makers just defaulted to third parties like Carplay. Then consumers complain the software is bad, expensive and not worth the cost. It's a self reinforcing feedback loop of incompetence all so car makers don't spend those 300 dollars on computing power but 30 dollars to cut costs.
A laptop motherboard is relatively simple compared to the electronics of an entire car. Imagine at least a laptop motherboard in every place of the car that has a screen (every infotainment center) and then at least an additional 10 boards in various places (power train being the most complicated of course) for the various sensors and actuators and lights and controls all over the car. And then add wiring harness design to interconnect all those parts together and do so in a way that minimises interference from one board to the next and that also remains safe under any adverse events such as thunderstorms for example. One of the safety requirements for example is that if a thunder falls next to the car then the electronics should not pick up this extra radiation (albeit that's more of a concern if you have a wireless charging receiver on the bottom of the car). The more electronics you add in a car the more the cost of integration and testing goes up for *both* software AND hardware. It's like buying laptop parts from 10 different suppliers and making sure that they all work together under any and all circumstances.
@@InTimeTraveller I was talking about the newly added tech which is supposed to drive up cost but in reality it is not since it is a fraction of the cost of the car. As for what you mentioned, those logic and chips existed before EVs and are old and obsolete tech that costs cents per unit and likely, combined do not make more than 100 dollars if that, the coper wire harness is likely more expensive than the fokin, idk 150nm chips for those sensors even those factories have stopped making them and car makers are being forced to update them to 5 year old tech. The electronics are not increasing costs in a significant way, this is a bold faced lie. Is it more expensive than not having them? Sure but it will not make a 40k car cost 20k, maybe 39k at most, meanwhile if it did have them they can ask 45k and get a higher profit.
@@eternitynaut as I said the newly added tech is not just one laptop motherboard, it's lots of different electronic components spread out through the car. The cost of this hardware may vary, but the cost of an electronic board is most certainly not just the bill of materials for the board, I should know, I'm an electronics engineer and I work as a test engineer and I test various complex electronic products. The cost is also in EMI design and test, safety testing, production testing, production yields, etc. The ICs themselves may not be manufactured on bleeding edge process nodes from TSMC, but they are not obsolete 150nm processes either. Some simple ICs such as eg CAN/LIN bus controllers or PMICs are going to be manufacture in older nodes for sure, like 90nm or more likely 45 or 28nm nowadays. But even if ICs are cheap, designing and manufacturing a PCB for automotive is not, you have to adhere to multiple standards (safety and otherwise). There is also a shitton of logic in the car when you have multiple infotainment systems such as a screen in the driver dashboard, a screen in the infotainment system, infotainment systems in the back of the cabin etc.
Also the wiring harness is not just add some copper and that's it. When you have back cameras for parking for example, you need a high speed interface cable between the back camera and the main screen. Similarly high speed interfaces are necessary for all the infotainment systems in the car, then you need the CANbus system for the control of the car (communication between engine, driver dashboard, steering wheel, door locks, braking, acceleration, inverter, motor controllers, distance sensors, airbag sensors, mirrors, lights, windows, etc all of which are now electronically controlled) and a wiring harness for the power train (from battery to inverter to motors), and all of these need to be designed and placed together carefully so that you don't have EMI from the motors interfering with the cameras for example or worse, with the CAN bus network.
And the more electronics you add, you exponentially increase the testing and debug time for integrating all these components together for both hardware and firmware. A car has thousands of interconnected components together, and having all of these components interoperate with each other is much more challenging engineering wise than making a laptop motherboard.
The point is that you don't need a car to have all these things though. You can have a car that is not a gadget and is instead just a normal commuting car.
@@InTimeTraveller feel freeto search the node of those IC from articles during the p an de mic with the chip shortage when fabs stopped making them and refused to restart production and wsnted to upgrade to newer and smaller transistor sizes. I said q50nm but it would not be strange if some chips were even double. Let me repeat that most of the sensors used today existed and were jn use even 15 years ago. What is new? Infotainment and self driving features. The infotainment side might add at most a couple hundred dollars. The self driving part depends on the solution, if it uses lidar, radar and cameras, could be a couple thousand, if it s just cameras it will be around 1k or even less. This ofc does not include software costs as those are not transparent to the public. Ultrasonic sensors predate self driving tech and were installed in econoboes as parking sensors so those should be cheap as well, with some exceptions. In the end though, these are either upgrade trim features or not available for cheap cars electric or otherwise.
The contention that it's 'competition' that makes Chinese EVs cheaper is silly. 40% of the production price was subsidized early on. Do that in America and everyone would be driving EVs because they would be the cheapest.
If so then do it and see how long and how much the US government can afford to subsidize, and then see the results 😂
Actually, the US is doing that😂 go buy an EV and the government will give you around 7k
@luiscastillo3334 the equivalent subsidy in America to the one offered early on in China would be 40% so for a 60k vehicle, you'd get 25k off
@@whitlockbr bro also a subside of 40% looks not true, so far I founded on internet that China gave around 2.7k (dollars) per vehicle and actually that subside ended in 2021
mahal doang,kena banjir lgsung mogok
greed
Appreciate the detailed breakdown! Just a quick off-topic question: My OKX wallet holds some USDT, and I have the seed phrase. (alarm fetch churn bridge exercise tape speak race clerk couch crater letter). How should I go about transferring them to Binance?
And how are the batteries recycled ? Isn't this a forever problem ?
Porque son unos abusivos....
Seeing videos of chinese EV's catching fire all the time, they should invest more on safety.
Seeing videos of ICE cars burning all the time. They should invest more in safety.
Don't most Chinese car companies also have to purchase their batteries from the big 2
You're kidding right? Chinese auto workers make $4 an hour and work 9am to 9pm 6 days a week. US auto workers work fewer hours and make more per hour. - Gen Z Republican
The lower production cost is not as affected by labour as we're led to believe. The manufacturing of cars in China is highly automated. From what I recall, labour is about 12-15% of production and that does include a significant portion of highly skilled personnel - designers and engineers - who get paid comparatively or more than western tech labour. Automakers benefit from being vertically integrated (These companies own the mines or have exclusive arrangements to mines for battery production) and use fewer parts in manufacturing - giga castings similar to Tesla. It's also not simple for Legacy automakers to repurpose their factories to make EVs, these need significant retooling. The Chinese are already at economies of scale in all these areas. And then there is the software and computers behind it all. Legacy automakers just suck at making software.
Don't forget western brands have factories using "cheap labors" in China too, and there are plenty of cheaper places in the world.
Labor is 10% of the cost of the car in North America.
Nada q ver estado unidos financia más q cualquier otro país a sus empresas. No inventen😂😂😂😂