This situation falls under "ground rules" that are specific to the field. The ground rule, agreed to before the game, states that a ball that hits this area and bounces so the fielder can't field it normally, the umpires are to call "dead ball" and place the runners where they would have advanced had the ball hit the back stop normally. The rule book rule is not considered in this case. Every field of play has it's own ground rules. Every time an umpire gets to the field, one of their first jobs is to assess the field of play and determine if any special "ground rules" should apply. On this field there is a ledge along the back drop, something that is not normal to a baseball field. What should happen if the ball hits that ledge and bounces straight up? The umpires determines this as something out of the norm and makes a "ground rule" which they discuss with both managers prior to the game. The stated rule in this particular case is that the ball will be called "dead" and runners placed where they would have advanced as best the umpire can determine. That is why in this situation the runners are placed at 2nd and 3rd. If the ball was declared "out of play" which is was not, the runners would be placed at 2nd and home per the rule book.
MJH-Baseball a ground rule can not contradict the rule book. If it is to be called a dead ball then runners should be treated as if the ball were out of play.
Alan Hess If it is not in the LL book then it reverts to OBR. The issue here is that no ground rule can circumvent a book rule. If the ground rule says that portion of the backstop is out of play, then it is just like the ball went into the dugout. You have to award 2 bases. Also the initial play has to come from an infielder. If the SS would have picked up the ball and made the throw, then it would have been 2 bases from time of pitch. Since the outfielder made the throw it is 2 bases from time of throw. R2 should have scored and BR should have been awarded 2b
As an umpire watching the play my initial reaction was 2 from the time of the throw. I would have given the batter runner third (in error per the replay as he was still short of first) and the runner who had obtained 2nd home.
Call correct. play it just like a ground rule double. which means the runners advance from their original positions not where they were when the ball went out of play. runner on second scores others left at third base and the batter on second base.
The key here is where were the runners at the Time of Throw (TOT)? Also remember that throws that go out-of-play, the base award is TWO BASES, NOT "1 plus 1," TWO bases. So, R2 (runner at second) would score. R1 (runner at first) had already touched second base at the TOT, he scores. The batter-runner had NOT touched first base at the TOT, so he is awarded second base.
Steve Dandy got it right. Two bases from the time of the throw. Batter gets second base. All other runners score. Don’t know anything about the special backstop ground rule other than it is either live if dead? If dead then 2 bases from the time of the throw. Good call Steve!
two bases from the release of the throw. batter runner gets second base. the runner that was on first had attained second base before the release so he would get home.
I think given how close that ground rule occurs to home plate, I think it makes sense to include an interpretation of judging as if it had played off the backstop/net cleanly.
Adam King The rule is you get 2 bases from the last base you legally touched at the time the ball was thrown. R1 had already touched 2nd when the center fielder threw the ball. 2 bases from 2nd puts him at home plate to score. BR had not touched first yet when the ball was thrown, so he gets second. If he had touched first already, he should have been given third base.
Since it is a thrown ball, the position of the runners at the time of the throw governs what bases they are awarded. The runner on second had already touched third and the runner on first had already touched second. The batter is automatically awarded Third on the two-base award and the other two score by rule.
In general, "ground rules" do not supercede the book rules of that level of baseball. The ground rule may define when a thrown ball is out of play, but the book rule defines the consequences.
Understanding the ground rules, you can see that the runner on second base made it home before the ball hit the "out of play area." However the ball bounced from the top of the rubber (which as begins the metal fence), considering this was still out of play then the batter who was on first and the runner on second who were moving up before the ball hit the wall would continue to 3rd and 2nd. However, that would be according the MLB rules. Since this is the little league and the runners/batters are given two bases the runners on base would all score accept for the batter who would be placed on second base because he did not reach first before the throw. Like if you agree, or don't...... 😞
Alan Hess Understanding that and the ground rules the runners on 1st and 2nd should have been awarded home as the runner and second established before the throw, of course, as well as the runner on 1st who had established 3rd and should have been rewarded with home. The batter should be placed on first since he had not reached first and there fore not established second.
As I saw the play... it's where the runners were at the time of the throw. It would have been runners that were on 1st and 2nd awarded home, batter-runner awarded 2nd as he hadn't quite made it to 1st yet (THATS WHY YOU HUSTLE)...However, no problem with the umpires call as he killed the play for safety reasons and awarded bases as he saw fit had the play continued without the ground rule infraction. Good job.
two bases from the time of the THROW since the ball was from the outfield. Therefore batter/runner is awarded second, runner on first scores since he was past second at the time of the throw from center field. If ball was thrown from infield runners would be awarded two bases from the time of the PITCH.
The ball hitting the top of the backstop had no effect on the fielders or baserunners ability to play. Thus, the ump made the decision to let the it play out "as is", which is the right call. No reason to award a team an extra run that they didn't earn. Now had the ball gotten stuck, or been thrown over the net - then that's a different story.
It may not be a matter how many bases. That's just what the announcer says, but he not's too clear either. The rule for a thrown ball is 2 bases from the TIME OF THROW, unless the throw is the first play by an infielder (ie, throwing to first vs going to 2nd, and then throwing to first to complete the dbl play) in which case it's TIME OF PITCH unless the batter makes it to first, and all other runners advance at least 1 base in which case it goes back to time of throw. At time of throw, the runner from first had just passed 2nd (he stops to see what the fielder is going to do with the ball), so he should get 2 bases from 2nd and score. The runner at 3rd also scores. The batter is just short of 1st base, so he should just get 2nd. But if the umpires didn't see where the runners were at time of throw, then this may be why the runners ended up where the were. We don't get to see the discussion if any in the clip, and it's still hard to believe that replay didn't correct this.
As a LL umpire, the rule is clear, 2 bases from the position of the runners at the time of the throw. Batter-runner gets 2nd, all other runners score. Unless I missed something on this video, I'm a bit confused why none of the other umpires got this call right or why the offensive manager didn't question the call. Maybe they weren't as familiar with the rule.
They mentioned at the end that the only exception is a possible specific ground rule that states, “When the ball hits the backstop the umpire shall give the runners the bases they would’ve reached rather than applying the standard rule.” So it can be a ground rule. Not sure if that’s actually what happened here though.
I don’t think a local rule can supersede a book rule. I get that they can call it out of play, but I’m not sure it’s legal to also stipulate different penalties. Strange.
The ground rule needs to be revisited. There is no reason for declaring the backstop out of play...it IS a part of the field. If the reason has to do with the added security padding that can cause wild deviations of the ball's trajectory, then a dead ball should NOT advance any runner as technically the ball has NOT been thrown out of play.
You are right and the ball isn't out of play. The commentators say that, and the voice over says that, but the umpires and the ground rule does not. It's just a dead ball.
The "slanting part of the screen above the backstop" is obviously an out of play area. In this video we are talking about a "shelf like" area four feet high along the in play area behind home plate. I don't think you can call this ball "out of play" and apply those rules because there is no way that throw would normally end up going out of play. It should reflect back off the back stop, not bounce 50 feet straight up. Therefore, it is a logical "ground rule" for that field to prevent the offense from getting an unfair advantage due to a backstop issue rather than a player error.
Two bases from start of play batter runner gets second all runners advance two bases. If you were on first you are now on third. Second and third base runners score. Unless a ground rule states otherwise.
The runner at first goes home and the runner that hit the ball goes to third cuz if you are in the middle of a play and a ball goesout of bounds in the dugout or over the foul ball fence the runners get to advance one base
You are right. In this instance, a penalty must be applied to the defense. The penalty is that each runner moves up one additional base. This would leave the batter-runner on third and the other runner awarded home as you said. The emphasis must be on the penalty given to the defense. BUT, the ball never lies...
Video paused at 1:22 to comment. R2 scores, R1 scores because he reached second before the ball was thrown. BR is on second because he hadn't touched first yet when the ball was thrown.
Per the MLB rule, the batter/runner should be awarded the base he was approaching at the time the ball was thrown by the outfielder, plus one additional base. Therefore, if the batter/runner was approaching 1st when the ball was thrown, he should end up on 2nd. If he'd passed 1st but was still approaching 2nd, he should end up on 3rd, and so forth.
Since we don't know the ground rules on the backstop, runner placement cannot be known to us. I'm sure this was discussed in pre-game by the officiating staff. So I have to go with the staff's call.
Ball not out of play, but is dead for purposes of field. Unless explicitly states at location, multiple umpires, conference, since C in clear control, confirm loc of runners when time was called, last base of runners when time was called +1. Runner crossing home plate counts even if runner was "inches from" plate when ball hit backstop.
The hitter and runner both took bases when the throw came in, so there should be runners on 2nd and 3rd and a run in. The result of the game was Kentucky 11 Texas 1, so it actually doesn't really have an actual impact on the game.
1st throw by and outfielder that goes out of play....runners advance 2 bases from time of the throw (both runners score, BR to 2nd) --- this is rather easy.
I’ve always interpreted the rule as the base the runner was going to plus 1 at the time of the errant throw. In my judgment, the runner had passed second base but clearly changed his momentum to retreat towards the second base bag when the center fielder released the throw. With the throw then going out of play, I believe correctly that the runner was awarded third base since it was clear to me that he was moving towards second base at the time of the throw.
You are a classic example of why so many people are woefully ignorant of the rules. You install your own interpretation of the rules instead of what is clearly defined by the rules. You probably think the hands are a part of the bat and that if a batted ball hits home plate it's a foul ball.
The way I was taught, and ALL of the umps have to be aware of what takes place is the runners get one base from their last "established" as soon as the ball leaves the field of play. In my opinion runner from 1st had 3rd established and should have been awarded home. The batter in my opinion had only first established as soon as the ball hit the top rail and should have gotten second but that was an iffy one and he may have gotten third according to the discretion of the second base umpire.
This is why umps need to pay close attention to where the runners are at any given moment. The commentators are correct but it's tough for the umps. It's nice to be a commentator with instant replay and time to think it over.
The rule that I learned is you get two bases based on where the runner is when the ball is thrown, therefore two runs should have scored and the batter should be on third
A preexisting agreement or rule by the facility or tournament host will supersede all others. So if that is why the ump place runners where he did that is absolutely correct. Have seen this many times with field defects, and safety concerns.
they should both get the extra base so the hitter would get 3rd because he was already heading towards 2nd before it wasn't playable anymore so automatically get 2nd, then since it's technically out of play (it's not out of play but same rules as out of play) they get the next base too
The runner made it into home before the ball hit the fence so he is safe. But the two runners that were still on base should move back to the base before because they both didn’t advance to the next base and make it before the ball hit the fence.
Call is correct you get the base you are going to and 1 more. The runner on 2nd is heading back to 2nd at the time of the throw so he gets 2nd and 3rd. And batter gets 1st and 2nd because he had not reached 1st.
I think the run scores and a runner on third because both runners made it to second and third before the ball hit the backstop and thats the equivalent of an infielder throwing a ball away in which an extra base should be awarded so it should be a runner on third and the other runner should be awarded home.
I had a similar play and awarded runners 2 bases from the time of the throw. The coach came out and argued. In 2 man its tough to determine where the runners are when the ball is thrown. 4 man a littler easier.
First two runners score and the kid who hit the ball would be on third because if the ball was thrown wildly the second runner would've also scored and the kid who hit the ball would've advanced to third
if a ball hitting the net is considered out of play like being thrown into the stands or dugout its 2 bases each runner.. runner on first scores and batter gets 3rd
we don't know if that final specific ground rule is the rule at williamsport. so we have to assume it isn't unless definitively told it is. runner scores, batter to 2nd.
The umpire ruled in accordance with the ground rule. But I think the ground rule should be changed to Play On unless the ball gets STUCK in the backstop or netting.
Ball thrown out of play by a defender means 2 bases for the runners. Runner who stopped at 3rd scores, as he had passed second by the time the ball made it out of play. Batter, who had passed 1st and was headed to 2nd, is awarded 3rd base. Easy call
As a ground rule, BY RULE cannot change a playing rule... (ground rule could award MORE bases.. but not less), runner from 1st scores.. BR on second... because if that area is considered dead ball area, the rule is already in place.
Paused at 1:21 to make my call. Kid scores and guy at third gets to come home and other runner from first is granted third. He was past first heading to second when ball went out of play so he is awarded two bases.(Third)
The thrown ball was deemed "out of play" - at the time of the throw, runners were occupying 2nd , and 3rd. The rule is to award 2 bases at the time of the throw that caused the infraction. Where were the runners at that time? I would rule 2 runs score. The batter-runner goes to 2nd base. Game continues.
Most commenters here keep saying that the ball went "out of play", so each runner should be awarded two bases. That is not the case here. Read the explanation from the publisher below the video. The ball hit a specific area of this field that the ground rules say results in a "dead ball", same as if the ball rested on this shelf/ledge and did not come down. The back-stop is in play, not out of bounds.. but the ledge/shelf is a ground rule resulting in a dead ball. Therefore, the umpire calls the play dead and awards the bases that he judges the runners would have reached safely if the ball hit the backstop cleanly. This is different than if the center fielder overthrew 3rd base and the ball sailed into the stands. In that case, the runner would be awarded two bases. Solution - get rid of that shelf!
They are allowed to go to whatever base they were headed for until the ball was actually out of play. If they had already proceeded past the previous base, first second and third in this case, then they advance to the next logical place. Yes the Run should have scored and the other Runners are at second and third as far as I can tell. I disagree about when the ball was pitched. That's assuming the ball somehow goes out of play from some incident near the plate. But that's only an assumption. I don't know where anyone got the idea that you should be allowed to advance two bases. The ball isn't playing until it isn't oh, that's an easy one to remember and rules should always be implemented in the simplest way possible. And this case oh, they were given the basis they would have acquired had the play just been and overthrow to the catcher. That is a logical and easily assumable end to this play.
There cannot be a ground rule that contradicts an existing rule that covers a situation. Ground rules should only account for unusual or non-standard configurations of the ballpark, like a ball hitting the roof of a domed stadium or a tree that overhangs live ball territory. A ball thrown into dead ball territory IS covered in the rulebook and, therefore, there can be no ground rule that alters this rule. All runners should be award two bases based on the last base touched AT THE TIME OF THE THROW. That would mean that all runners score and the batter-runner would be awarded 2nd base (since, the batter-runner had not yet touched 1st by the time the center fielder released the ball.) If that area of the field is considered "dead ball" territory ... and a thrown ball goes into that area ... that is explicitly covered in the rulebook and there should be no ground rule for that situation that differs from the rulebook.
Batter runner to 2nd, runner that was on 1st to home. I don't like carve outs in ground rules that modify the placement of baserunners. This is a play where every member of the crew needs to be paying attention to every detail of their responsibility and thinking on the fly as to what they have.
First thought - Little League needs to have someone near the commentators that actually knows the playing rules. I have seen many instances where the announcers did not understand the difference between Official Baseball Rules and Little League rules. I agree with Justin Sampson - runner on first scores, batter to second.
Two bases time of the throw as it's played by the outfielder, runner from first had reached second, he goes home, batter runner, had I been calling it, probably would have gotten second unless my partner said he made fist at the time of the throw. In all likely hood batter runner doesn't make first. Without a 3 or 4 man system there's no way you can have eyes on all the base runners. Safest thing to do as an umpire is assume he hadn't gotten 1st by the time of the throw. If I were to guess though the mistake was placing the runners as per time of the pitch rather time of the throw unless there's some special little league rules that are different from standard MLB rules (and there are a few that are different I'm sure). If you're placing them by time of the pitch then the umpires got it right.
I'm actually going with the idea that the ground rule probably limits advancement in this case, as it wouldn't make sense to have those runners advance.
Several people here have it right. I had a game with no fence beyond the player benches. AA level (8-10yrs). Right at the plate meeting I established the grounds rule being that beyond the existing fence line any fly ball along the line would be a judgment call if in play or not. Which always prompts the next question "Well, if the fielder catches the ball an out is an out right?". No coach, if the ball is judged out of play then it is a foul ball caught or not. In this case, the grounds rule is that if the ball hits the fence above the wall behind the catcher the ball is considered out of play. Very simple. Not a rule interpretation, a grounds rule. Which brings us to rule interpretation. At the lower levels of play, in a case like a special grounds rule, I will give the coaches a quick rundown on what happens if the ball is thrown out of play. Again, this is a book rule, not a grounds rule. Grounds rules have nothing to do with the actual rules of the game. The results of the situation (mine or the one in video) are the same. Infielder making his "first" play throws the ball out of play then all runners advance one base. If a secondary throw, then base runners are awarded 2 bases from where they are at the time of the throw. If the initial throw is by an outfielder then 2 bases from where the runners are at the time of the throw. It's not that hard.Now, if you want to get into a real tough decision to make. Runner leaves a base early. There are 21 scenarios in the rule book covering this. What happens is different in each scenario. Read over that section and think about some possibilities. I had a real good one. Got it right in the sense of acting within the spirit of the game. But also got it wrong in regards to the actual written rule. I only know that because I reviewed the rulebook post game and learned from it.
Having stopped the video at 2:11 (without seeing their verdict, and having the camera angle advantage), I think I would rule that the runner scores and the other runners are placed at first and second, based on where they were (roughly) when the ball went out of play. Maybe I would decide differently if I were on the ground. I have six years of umpire experience, but at the end of the day it's up to the umpires on the field.
Hearing the "1from the rubber, 2 from the field rule" is something I was unaware of. Seeing that the umpires allowed the run to score and kept the runners at 2nd and 3rd, I think that's an acceptable solution because that's where they were when the Plate Ump called "Dead Ball."
The umpires messed up. The ground rules merely define what's in play and what's out of play. R1 should have been awarded home. Too bad the manager of the offense didn't protest -- unless, of course, the umpires judged that R1 had not reached second at the time of the throw.
everything on the field with the runners was correct, the guy on second got home, and if the ball is thrown out of play than both the runners on 1st and 2nd should advance
I've played baseball from the time I was 7-18. My opinion is follows: say the batter hit a infield ground ball the throw goes over first basemans head and into dead ball zone he is given only one base which is second hince my opion the two base runners advance one base hince the runners were advancing to next base when called out of play 1st runner gets third 2nd runner gets second...this is how always played it but it's in umpires hands not really a clear ruling either way.
1st throw by a fielder. Batter runner had not yet made first base at the time of the throw so it defaults to where the runners were at the time of pitch. BR gets 2nd - R1 gets 3rd and R2 scores.....and no more!
From the time of the throw should change as no one knows at that time of the throw is good or not. It's like calling balls and strikes before the pitcher releases the ball.
It's funny to see all of the disagreement with the Umpire's decision. As noted, the "ground rule", which supersedes the written rules, usually because of some kind of anomaly, and the runners are placed at the umpire's discretion. The Umpire couldn't possibly be wrong no matter what decision he made, because it was his to make.,
They should have moved the players 2 bases and the one who scored gets it because the ball does not hit the fence thing after he already scored. So 2 people would have scored and there would be a guy on 2nd base.
i like the umpire's call here to place runners on second and third. while most site the rule as gospel this specific situation is something that clearly is a gray area of that rule. there is no possible way that the runner who had gained on second and the batter who was about to hit first (at the time of the wild throw) make it to home and third base respectively if the ball is still considered "live". the catcher clearly gains control of the ball as the runner who started on first just reaches third and the batter is just over halfway to second. while many will argue against me blindly siting the rule common sense and judgement by the umpire i personally believe was the right call.
According to when the ball was thrown, the runner went back to 2nd, so 1 base would put him at 3rd, the batter was not at 1st so he should not have been given 2nd.
Uh, to me what should be considered is whether or not the throw accidentally hit the fence because he just lost his grip on it or if he INTENTIONALLY threw it that high and far trying to kill the ball so no runs would score. Because it sure looks to me like he couldn't possibly have thrown it that high and hard accidentally. Not only that but what is the "top part of the rail" and how is THAT interpreted? Most ground rules pertain to balls hit into the field of play if they hit the ground and bounce over a low fence or hit the fence in the outfield and bounce back into play over the head of a player running or trying to make a play for it, etc. And I'm certain this ground rule would also apply to a ball tipped back and foul off the fence if it hit just right and high enough so that it bounced up even farther and ends up being in the air with the catcher waitng below to catch it with his back turned so that he has no idea what's going on once he catches the ball and turns toward the field of play. Because that IS a fly ball and a base runner with a lead off base could tag up, step off the base a little and as soon as the catcher has caught the ball but before he gets turned around and oriented tap the bag with a foot and steal a base if the catcher let his guard down when he thought the ball was dead.
The kid that was awarded third should have been home. The kid that was awarded second should have been at third. The rule is if the ball is thrown by an outfielder and goes out of play, the runner gets 2 bases from where he was when the throw occurred.
Runner from 1st should have been awarded home. The BR should have been awarded 2nd since he had not reached first
This situation falls under "ground rules" that are specific to the field. The ground rule, agreed to before the game, states that a ball that hits this area and bounces so the fielder can't field it normally, the umpires are to call "dead ball" and place the runners where they would have advanced had the ball hit the back stop normally.
The rule book rule is not considered in this case. Every field of play has it's own ground rules. Every time an umpire gets to the field, one of their first jobs is to assess the field of play and determine if any special "ground rules" should apply. On this field there is a ledge along the back drop, something that is not normal to a baseball field. What should happen if the ball hits that ledge and bounces straight up? The umpires determines this as something out of the norm and makes a "ground rule" which they discuss with both managers prior to the game. The stated rule in this particular case is that the ball will be called "dead" and runners placed where they would have advanced as best the umpire can determine. That is why in this situation the runners are placed at 2nd and 3rd. If the ball was declared "out of play" which is was not, the runners would be placed at 2nd and home per the rule book.
MJH-Baseball a ground rule can not contradict the rule book. If it is to be called a dead ball then runners should be treated as if the ball were out of play.
Alan Hess look up 5.06(b)(4)(G)
MJH-Baseball You are incorrect.
Alan Hess If it is not in the LL book then it reverts to OBR. The issue here is that no ground rule can circumvent a book rule. If the ground rule says that portion of the backstop is out of play, then it is just like the ball went into the dugout. You have to award 2 bases. Also the initial play has to come from an infielder. If the SS would have picked up the ball and made the throw, then it would have been 2 bases from time of pitch. Since the outfielder made the throw it is 2 bases from time of throw. R2 should have scored and BR should have been awarded 2b
As an umpire watching the play my initial reaction was 2 from the time of the throw. I would have given the batter runner third (in error per the replay as he was still short of first) and the runner who had obtained 2nd home.
I would have done the same thing. I would have done differently would be BR I would have put them on 2nd. Everyone else would have been home imho.
That would be 3 bases, 1st, 2nd and 3rd. The batter runner gets 2nd bc he did not reach 1st before the throw. Thus he gets 1st + 2nd (2 bases).
Call correct. play it just like a ground rule double. which means the runners advance from their original positions not where they were when the ball went out of play. runner on second scores others left at third base and the batter on second base.
The key here is where were the runners at the Time of Throw (TOT)?
Also remember that throws that go out-of-play, the base award is TWO BASES, NOT "1 plus 1," TWO bases.
So, R2 (runner at second) would score.
R1 (runner at first) had already touched second base at the TOT, he scores.
The batter-runner had NOT touched first base at the TOT, so he is awarded second base.
Steve Dandy got it right. Two bases from the time of the throw. Batter gets second base. All other runners score. Don’t know anything about the special backstop ground rule other than it is either live if dead? If dead then 2 bases from the time of the throw. Good call Steve!
two bases from the release of the throw. batter runner gets second base. the runner that was on first had attained second base before the release so he would get home.
I think given how close that ground rule occurs to home plate, I think it makes sense to include an interpretation of judging as if it had played off the backstop/net cleanly.
2 bases from where they were when the ball was thrown. R2 and R1 score, BR on 2nd because he hadn't touched first when the ball was thrown.
Adam King The rule is you get 2 bases from the last base you legally touched at the time the ball was thrown. R1 had already touched 2nd when the center fielder threw the ball. 2 bases from 2nd puts him at home plate to score. BR had not touched first yet when the ball was thrown, so he gets second. If he had touched first already, he should have been given third base.
Since it is a thrown ball, the position of the runners at the time of the throw governs what bases they are awarded. The runner on second had already touched third and the runner on first had already touched second. The batter is automatically awarded Third on the two-base award and the other two score by rule.
Well explained, surprised it wasn't looked at further or discussed amongst the umpires for clarification.
In general, "ground rules" do not supercede the book rules of that level of baseball. The ground rule may define when a thrown ball is out of play, but the book rule defines the consequences.
I think it was the right call. I’m no genius on baseball but regardless of the “correct” ruling I think the way it was handled was completely fair
Understanding the ground rules, you can see that the runner on second base made it home before the ball hit the "out of play area." However the ball bounced from the top of the rubber (which as begins the metal fence), considering this was still out of play then the batter who was on first and the runner on second who were moving up before the ball hit the wall would continue to 3rd and 2nd. However, that would be according the MLB rules. Since this is the little league and the runners/batters are given two bases the runners on base would all score accept for the batter who would be placed on second base because he did not reach first before the throw. Like if you agree, or don't...... 😞
Alan Hess Understanding that and the ground rules the runners on 1st and 2nd should have been awarded home as the runner and second established before the throw, of course, as well as the runner on 1st who had established 3rd and should have been rewarded with home. The batter should be placed on first since he had not reached first and there fore not established second.
As I saw the play... it's where the runners were at the time of the throw. It would have been runners that were on 1st and 2nd awarded home, batter-runner awarded 2nd as he hadn't quite made it to 1st yet (THATS WHY YOU HUSTLE)...However, no problem with the umpires call as he killed the play for safety reasons and awarded bases as he saw fit had the play continued without the ground rule infraction. Good job.
I believe you are correct, but if it was the first play by an infielder and not an outfielder, then it is two bases from the time of the pitch.
I love this channel. Recently discovered it and have watched nearly every video twice! Keep up the good work MJH-Baseball
two bases from the time of the THROW since the ball was from the outfield. Therefore batter/runner is awarded second, runner on first scores since he was past second at the time of the throw from center field. If ball was thrown from infield runners would be awarded two bases from the time of the PITCH.
The ball hitting the top of the backstop had no effect on the fielders or baserunners ability to play. Thus, the ump made the decision to let the it play out "as is", which is the right call. No reason to award a team an extra run that they didn't earn. Now had the ball gotten stuck, or been thrown over the net - then that's a different story.
It may not be a matter how many bases. That's just what the announcer says, but he not's too clear either. The rule for a thrown ball is 2 bases from the TIME OF THROW, unless the throw is the first play by an infielder (ie, throwing to first vs going to 2nd, and then throwing to first to complete the dbl play) in which case it's TIME OF PITCH unless the batter makes it to first, and all other runners advance at least 1 base in which case it goes back to time of throw. At time of throw, the runner from first had just passed 2nd (he stops to see what the fielder is going to do with the ball), so he should get 2 bases from 2nd and score. The runner at 3rd also scores. The batter is just short of 1st base, so he should just get 2nd. But if the umpires didn't see where the runners were at time of throw, then this may be why the runners ended up where the were. We don't get to see the discussion if any in the clip, and it's still hard to believe that replay didn't correct this.
As a LL umpire, the rule is clear, 2 bases from the position of the runners at the time of the throw. Batter-runner gets 2nd, all other runners score. Unless I missed something on this video, I'm a bit confused why none of the other umpires got this call right or why the offensive manager didn't question the call. Maybe they weren't as familiar with the rule.
They mentioned at the end that the only exception is a possible specific ground rule that states, “When the ball hits the backstop the umpire shall give the runners the bases they would’ve reached rather than applying the standard rule.” So it can be a ground rule. Not sure if that’s actually what happened here though.
@@Libertarian_Neighbor Good point!
I don’t think a local rule can supersede a book rule. I get that they can call it out of play, but I’m not sure it’s legal to also stipulate different penalties. Strange.
The ground rule needs to be revisited. There is no reason for declaring the backstop out of play...it IS a part of the field. If the reason has to do with the added security padding that can cause wild deviations of the ball's trajectory, then a dead ball should NOT advance any runner as technically the ball has NOT been thrown out of play.
You are right and the ball isn't out of play. The commentators say that, and the voice over says that, but the umpires and the ground rule does not. It's just a dead ball.
MJH-Baseball If the ground rules, or even the umpires, say that ball went out of play, then the awards must, by rule, be two bases.
The "slanting part of the screen above the backstop" is obviously an out of play area. In this video we are talking about a "shelf like" area four feet high along the in play area behind home plate. I don't think you can call this ball "out of play" and apply those rules because there is no way that throw would normally end up going out of play. It should reflect back off the back stop, not bounce 50 feet straight up. Therefore, it is a logical "ground rule" for that field to prevent the offense from getting an unfair advantage due to a backstop issue rather than a player error.
The ground rules and umpires never say this ball went out of play. Only the commentator and voice over to the video make mention of "out of play."
Then why did the plate umpire kill the play?
Two bases from base occupied at time of throw from an outfielder. R2 Home. R1 Home (past 2nd at TOT); BR 2nd - not reached 1B by TOT. Simple!!
The runner on 1st should have gotten home, because you get two bases from the last one you touched when the ball was thrown.
Two bases from start of play batter runner gets second all runners advance two bases. If you were on first you are now on third. Second and third base runners score.
Unless a ground rule states otherwise.
The runner at first goes home and the runner that hit the ball goes to third cuz if you are in the middle of a play and a ball goesout of bounds in the dugout or over the foul ball fence the runners get to advance one base
You are right. In this instance, a penalty must be applied to the defense. The penalty is that each runner moves up one additional base. This would leave the batter-runner on third and the other runner awarded home as you said. The emphasis must be on the penalty given to the defense. BUT, the ball never lies...
Video paused at 1:22 to comment. R2 scores, R1 scores because he reached second before the ball was thrown. BR is on second because he hadn't touched first yet when the ball was thrown.
Per the MLB rule, the batter/runner should be awarded the base he was approaching at the time the ball was thrown by the outfielder, plus one additional base. Therefore, if the batter/runner was approaching 1st when the ball was thrown, he should end up on 2nd. If he'd passed 1st but was still approaching 2nd, he should end up on 3rd, and so forth.
Since we don't know the ground rules on the backstop, runner placement cannot be known to us. I'm sure this was discussed in pre-game by the officiating staff. So I have to go with the staff's call.
Ball not out of play, but is dead for purposes of field. Unless explicitly states at location, multiple umpires, conference, since C in clear control, confirm loc of runners when time was called, last base of runners when time was called +1. Runner crossing home plate counts even if runner was "inches from" plate when ball hit backstop.
The hitter and runner both took bases when the throw came in, so there should be runners on 2nd and 3rd and a run in. The result of the game was Kentucky 11 Texas 1, so it actually doesn't really have an actual impact on the game.
The little league rule I play with is that if the ball is thrown out of play the runner gets the base they were going to and one extra.
runner at 2, runner at 3, 1 home
My dad met the parents of the centerfielder on that kentucky team when we were at the llws
On an out of play ball (in NCHSBA anyways) you are awarded the base you were running to plus the next base
1st throw by and outfielder that goes out of play....runners advance 2 bases from time of the throw (both runners score, BR to 2nd) --- this is rather easy.
hitter to second, and the other two home
I’ve always interpreted the rule as the base the runner was going to plus 1 at the time of the errant throw. In my judgment, the runner had passed second base but clearly changed his momentum to retreat towards the second base bag when the center fielder released the throw. With the throw then going out of play, I believe correctly that the runner was awarded third base since it was clear to me that he was moving towards second base at the time of the throw.
How many coaches have you had to toss based on that interpretation?
You are a classic example of why so many people are woefully ignorant of the rules. You install your own interpretation of the rules instead of what is clearly defined by the rules. You probably think the hands are a part of the bat and that if a batted ball hits home plate it's a foul ball.
The way I was taught, and ALL of the umps have to be aware of what takes place is the runners get one base from their last "established" as soon as the ball leaves the field of play.
In my opinion runner from 1st had 3rd established and should have been awarded home. The batter in my opinion had only first established as soon as the ball hit the top rail and should have gotten second but that was an iffy one and he may have gotten third according to the discretion of the second base umpire.
This is why umps need to pay close attention to where the runners are at any given moment. The commentators are correct but it's tough for the umps. It's nice to be a commentator with instant replay and time to think it over.
If you are running towards 2nd base when the ball goes out of play ( just an example) you get third base.
The rule that I learned is you get two bases based on where the runner is when the ball is thrown, therefore two runs should have scored and the batter should be on third
2 bases from the time of the throw.....movin' on
A preexisting agreement or rule by the facility or tournament host will supersede all others. So if that is why the ump place runners where he did that is absolutely correct. Have seen this many times with field defects, and safety concerns.
they should both get the extra base so the hitter would get 3rd because he was already heading towards 2nd before it wasn't playable anymore so automatically get 2nd, then since it's technically out of play (it's not out of play but same rules as out of play) they get the next base too
The runner made it into home before the ball hit the fence so he is safe. But the two runners that were still on base should move back to the base before because they both didn’t advance to the next base and make it before the ball hit the fence.
Both your answers are true only way to know 2nd option is to have one of those Williamsport umpires to answer it.
First inning of a little league game. They were playing on a mini fiel and he throws the ball thirty feet over.
That's a tough one, scoring run tagged home plate before ball hit wall
Runner from 1st gets Home and Batter is on Third. You Get Two bases from ball thrown from outfield.
Call is correct you get the base you are going to and 1 more. The runner on 2nd is heading back to 2nd at the time of the throw so he gets 2nd and 3rd. And batter gets 1st and 2nd because he had not reached 1st.
I think the run scores and a runner on third because both runners made it to second and third before the ball hit the backstop and thats the equivalent of an infielder throwing a ball away in which an extra base should be awarded so it should be a runner on third and the other runner should be awarded home.
I had a similar play and awarded runners 2 bases from the time of the throw. The coach came out and argued. In 2 man its tough to determine where the runners are when the ball is thrown. 4 man a littler easier.
First two runners score and the kid who hit the ball would be on third because if the ball was thrown wildly the second runner would've also scored and the kid who hit the ball would've advanced to third
It is ruled a ground rule double. Therefore now there should be a runner on second and third and 1 run scores
if a ball hitting the net is considered out of play like being thrown into the stands or dugout its 2 bases each runner.. runner on first scores and batter gets 3rd
we don't know if that final specific ground rule is the rule at williamsport. so we have to assume it isn't unless definitively told it is. runner scores, batter to 2nd.
The umpire ruled in accordance with the ground rule. But I think the ground rule should be changed to Play On unless the ball gets STUCK in the backstop or netting.
Ball thrown out of play by a defender means 2 bases for the runners. Runner who stopped at 3rd scores, as he had passed second by the time the ball made it out of play. Batter, who had passed 1st and was headed to 2nd, is awarded 3rd base. Easy call
ground rule double and the runners are placed according to what the play should have ended up being.
As a ground rule, BY RULE cannot change a playing rule... (ground rule could award MORE bases.. but not less), runner from 1st scores.. BR on second... because if that area is considered dead ball area, the rule is already in place.
It's the first play. Assuming Cal Ripken is the same as Little League, it is a 2 base dead-ball award from the TOP (Time OF the Pitch).
Paused at 1:21 to make my call. Kid scores and guy at third gets to come home and other runner from first is granted third. He was past first heading to second when ball went out of play so he is awarded two bases.(Third)
I would think of it as a ground rule double sorta thing where all the runners move up and the batter goes to second.
Run scored and since a dead ball the runners stop at 2nd and 3rd. The ball is dead so runners can not advance as they can not be thrown out
The thrown ball was deemed "out of play" - at the time of the throw, runners were occupying 2nd , and 3rd. The rule is to award 2 bases at the time of the throw that caused the infraction. Where were the runners at that time? I would rule 2 runs score. The batter-runner goes to 2nd base. Game continues.
umpire got it right you're award the next base or the base you're advancing to runners on second and third since the runner hadn't taken third yet
Most commenters here keep saying that the ball went "out of play", so each runner should be awarded two bases. That is not the case here. Read the explanation from the publisher below the video. The ball hit a specific area of this field that the ground rules say results in a "dead ball", same as if the ball rested on this shelf/ledge and did not come down. The back-stop is in play, not out of bounds.. but the ledge/shelf is a ground rule resulting in a dead ball. Therefore, the umpire calls the play dead and awards the bases that he judges the runners would have reached safely if the ball hit the backstop cleanly. This is different than if the center fielder overthrew 3rd base and the ball sailed into the stands. In that case, the runner would be awarded two bases. Solution - get rid of that shelf!
Play was still live because to ball did NOT go over the fence so play is still live.
They are allowed to go to whatever base they were headed for until the ball was actually out of play. If they had already proceeded past the previous base, first second and third in this case, then they advance to the next logical place. Yes the Run should have scored and the other Runners are at second and third as far as I can tell.
I disagree about when the ball was pitched. That's assuming the ball somehow goes out of play from some incident near the plate. But that's only an assumption. I don't know where anyone got the idea that you should be allowed to advance two bases. The ball isn't playing until it isn't oh, that's an easy one to remember and rules should always be implemented in the simplest way possible. And this case oh, they were given the basis they would have acquired had the play just been and overthrow to the catcher. That is a logical and easily assumable end to this play.
There cannot be a ground rule that contradicts an existing rule that covers a situation. Ground rules should only account for unusual or non-standard configurations of the ballpark, like a ball hitting the roof of a domed stadium or a tree that overhangs live ball territory. A ball thrown into dead ball territory IS covered in the rulebook and, therefore, there can be no ground rule that alters this rule. All runners should be award two bases based on the last base touched AT THE TIME OF THE THROW. That would mean that all runners score and the batter-runner would be awarded 2nd base (since, the batter-runner had not yet touched 1st by the time the center fielder released the ball.)
If that area of the field is considered "dead ball" territory ... and a thrown ball goes into that area ... that is explicitly covered in the rulebook and there should be no ground rule for that situation that differs from the rulebook.
I think the runner is safe at home because he left before the ball was even thrown. But the other runners have to go back to 1st and 2nd
Batter runner to 2nd, runner that was on 1st to home. I don't like carve outs in ground rules that modify the placement of baserunners. This is a play where every member of the crew needs to be paying attention to every detail of their responsibility and thinking on the fly as to what they have.
First thought - Little League needs to have someone near the commentators that actually knows the playing rules. I have seen many instances where the announcers did not understand the difference between Official Baseball Rules and Little League rules.
I agree with Justin Sampson - runner on first scores, batter to second.
Two bases time of the throw as it's played by the outfielder, runner from first had reached second, he goes home, batter runner, had I been calling it, probably would have gotten second unless my partner said he made fist at the time of the throw. In all likely hood batter runner doesn't make first. Without a 3 or 4 man system there's no way you can have eyes on all the base runners. Safest thing to do as an umpire is assume he hadn't gotten 1st by the time of the throw. If I were to guess though the mistake was placing the runners as per time of the pitch rather time of the throw unless there's some special little league rules that are different from standard MLB rules (and there are a few that are different I'm sure). If you're placing them by time of the pitch then the umpires got it right.
I'm actually going with the idea that the ground rule probably limits advancement in this case, as it wouldn't make sense to have those runners advance.
It appears that they went with 2 bases from the time of the pitch because the the throw out of play was the 1st play from the field.
Several people here have it right. I had a game with no fence beyond the player benches. AA level (8-10yrs). Right at the plate meeting I established the grounds rule being that beyond the existing fence line any fly ball along the line would be a judgment call if in play or not. Which always prompts the next question "Well, if the fielder catches the ball an out is an out right?". No coach, if the ball is judged out of play then it is a foul ball caught or not. In this case, the grounds rule is that if the ball hits the fence above the wall behind the catcher the ball is considered out of play. Very simple. Not a rule interpretation, a grounds rule. Which brings us to rule interpretation. At the lower levels of play, in a case like a special grounds rule, I will give the coaches a quick rundown on what happens if the ball is thrown out of play. Again, this is a book rule, not a grounds rule. Grounds rules have nothing to do with the actual rules of the game. The results of the situation (mine or the one in video) are the same. Infielder making his "first" play throws the ball out of play then all runners advance one base. If a secondary throw, then base runners are awarded 2 bases from where they are at the time of the throw. If the initial throw is by an outfielder then 2 bases from where the runners are at the time of the throw. It's not that hard.Now, if you want to get into a real tough decision to make. Runner leaves a base early. There are 21 scenarios in the rule book covering this. What happens is different in each scenario. Read over that section and think about some possibilities. I had a real good one. Got it right in the sense of acting within the spirit of the game. But also got it wrong in regards to the actual written rule. I only know that because I reviewed the rulebook post game and learned from it.
There is no need to go over base awards. When discussing ground rules, all you care about is what is in play and what is out of play.
Having stopped the video at 2:11 (without seeing their verdict, and having the camera angle advantage), I think I would rule that the runner scores and the other runners are placed at first and second, based on where they were (roughly) when the ball went out of play. Maybe I would decide differently if I were on the ground. I have six years of umpire experience, but at the end of the day it's up to the umpires on the field.
Hearing the "1from the rubber, 2 from the field rule" is something I was unaware of. Seeing that the umpires allowed the run to score and kept the runners at 2nd and 3rd, I think that's an acceptable solution because that's where they were when the Plate Ump called "Dead Ball."
normally 2 bases but situations dictate, right call.
I think that is 2 bases from where they were, the runner was at 2nd when the throw did that, so I think they scored
The umpires messed up. The ground rules merely define what's in play and what's out of play. R1 should have been awarded home. Too bad the manager of the offense didn't protest -- unless, of course, the umpires judged that R1 had not reached second at the time of the throw.
the rule is that you get the base you are going to plus one
everything on the field with the runners was correct, the guy on second got home, and if the ball is thrown out of play than both the runners on 1st and 2nd should advance
The umpires had it right. A dead ball, returns all runners back to their bag. A ball OUT OF PLAY gives the runners an extra bag
I've played baseball from the time I was 7-18. My opinion is follows: say the batter hit a infield ground ball the throw goes over first basemans head and into dead ball zone he is given only one base which is second hince my opion the two base runners advance one base hince the runners were advancing to next base when called out of play 1st runner gets third 2nd runner gets second...this is how always played it but it's in umpires hands not really a clear ruling either way.
1st throw by a fielder. Batter runner had not yet made first base at the time of the throw so it defaults to where the runners were at the time of pitch. BR gets 2nd - R1 gets 3rd and R2 scores.....and no more!
From the time of the throw should change as no one knows at that time of the throw is good or not. It's like calling balls and strikes before the pitcher releases the ball.
When the ball is thrown out of play, the base runners get the base they are headed to plus 1 more base!!
It's funny to see all of the disagreement with the Umpire's decision. As noted, the "ground rule", which supersedes the written rules, usually because of some kind of anomaly, and the runners are placed at the umpire's discretion. The Umpire couldn't possibly be wrong no matter what decision he made, because it was his to make.,
The runner at 1st is awarded home and the batter is rewarded 3rd therefore, it should've be a 2-0 game.
well considering it’s 1 bag from the mound 2 from field the 2nd bass runner should score and the 1st base runner goes to 3rd and 3rd base scores
It should be ruled as a ground rule double so the player batting advances to second and the runner on first should of scored
They should have moved the players 2 bases and the one who scored gets it because the ball does not hit the fence thing after he already scored. So 2 people would have scored and there would be a guy on 2nd base.
They should be at the same place because even if it didn't hit that part the runners would be on second and third.
i like the umpire's call here to place runners on second and third. while most site the rule as gospel this specific situation is something that clearly is a gray area of that rule. there is no possible way that the runner who had gained on second and the batter who was about to hit first (at the time of the wild throw) make it to home and third base respectively if the ball is still considered "live". the catcher clearly gains control of the ball as the runner who started on first just reaches third and the batter is just over halfway to second.
while many will argue against me blindly siting the rule common sense and judgement by the umpire i personally believe was the right call.
man on 2nd and 3rd because deadball is an extra base so man on 1st goes to 3rd and at bat 2nd
Awards are time of throw, 2 bases. Batter/runner 2nd,. R1 home.
According to when the ball was thrown, the runner went back to 2nd, so 1 base would put him at 3rd, the batter was not at 1st so he should not have been given 2nd.
R1 was at second at the time of the throw, so his award was supposed to be home.
BR gets 2nd, R1 to third, R2 scores.....ruling = two bases from where they were at the time of the throw (1st throw from outfielder)
Runner scores because he had touched home plate before the ball went out of play. The other two runners should be at first and second
Uh, to me what should be considered is whether or not the throw accidentally hit the fence because he just lost his grip on it or if he INTENTIONALLY threw it that high and far trying to kill the ball so no runs would score. Because it sure looks to me like he couldn't possibly have thrown it that high and hard accidentally. Not only that but what is the "top part of the rail" and how is THAT interpreted? Most ground rules pertain to balls hit into the field of play if they hit the ground and bounce over a low fence or hit the fence in the outfield and bounce back into play over the head of a player running or trying to make a play for it, etc. And I'm certain this ground rule would also apply to a ball tipped back and foul off the fence if it hit just right and high enough so that it bounced up even farther and ends up being in the air with the catcher waitng below to catch it with his back turned so that he has no idea what's going on once he catches the ball and turns toward the field of play. Because that IS a fly ball and a base runner with a lead off base could tag up, step off the base a little and as soon as the catcher has caught the ball but before he gets turned around and oriented tap the bag with a foot and steal a base if the catcher let his guard down when he thought the ball was dead.
Should be 2 runs in and runner at 3rd. Now I'll finish the video to see what the ruling is.
The kid that was awarded third should have been home. The kid that was awarded second should have been at third. The rule is if the ball is thrown by an outfielder and goes out of play, the runner gets 2 bases from where he was when the throw occurred.