Comparing the Atlas AZ/EQ-G, CGX, G11 & CEM60 - Why I chose what I did.
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- Опубликовано: 2 авг 2024
- This details all of the criteria I had for a new mount. I was considering the Orion Az/EQ-Pro, Celestron CGX, Losmandy G11 and the iOptron CEM60. I cover the good and bad of each and give the overall reasons I chose the CEM60.
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Brilliant review. Just what I needed right now. I am reluctant to spend 2500€ but if it's good value.
Thanks! Let me know if you have any questions I didn't cover!
Pro trick: you can watch series at Flixzone. I've been using them for watching lots of of movies lately.
@Curtis Rodney definitely, I have been using flixzone for since december myself =)
This is one of the best reviews I have ever watched. Thank you for not using background (or foreground) music! Very articulate.
Thanks for your detailed review. This really helps me to think about options with my next mount!
Excellent video. I like the way you went about your selection process.
Scott
Thanks for the video. You made my choice of selecting a mount much easier.
The Celestron All Sky Polar Alignment is actually very effective. Three iterations took me about 45 minutes and my CGEM DX mount was under 10 arcseconds away from the pole in RA and Dec. This is one of the best features of Celestron mounts. Great comparison matrix!
Awesome review @AstroJeff. Thank you for doing that. Your review forced me to sell my Atlas AZ/EQG and go to CEM-60, and I don't regret it. CEM-60 with ASIAir - that is the best combination. I have brought down my 0-to-image time under 15 mins with this combo!!
Hi @framinash, I was wondering how you connect the ASIAIR (i have it) to the CEM-60 (think of buying it). Do you mind explaining ? Thanks!
Thanks. Great review. For myself, I love doing outreach. I have used an equatorial for that, too slow, to complex. I will try the iOptron Alt-Az pro, for my 127 refractor. I am happy to hear that the iOptron motors are OK. I am sorry to hear about the 9 horrible clamps on the iOptron pier. If you solve the ridiculous clamp problem, post your solution. Thanks for your help.
Losmandy is a great choice and the polar alignment scope is advanced compared with the others. I had a case made for my Losmandy but I chose the G811G because of tucked motors, 50# weight capacity and overall weight. Under 3grand
My main gripe with iOptron is the shoddy finishes they do. I had that same setup a few years ago and after 6 months use I took the pier and counterweights to a pro paint shop to have them stripped and re-powder coated. The shop mentioned it was obvious iOptron did not give the parts nearly enough cure time in the oven, only about 15 minutes it looked. They stripped them down and re-coated everything and cured each part for 90 minutes. The refinish was harder and sturdy and took wear and tear really well.
I agree. I had a little spot that didn't take the paint right out of the factory. And it was not caught in quality control. If there is any. I paid $5 and had a small bottle of touch up paint sent to me. Haven't gotten around to using it yet though.
Totally agree. Way too much marketing hype an BS reviews. In real life they are simply not worth the money. Even the variance in build quality from sample to sample is shocking to say the least. Never again….
Very nice Jeff. Thank you.
A couple of things. I consider the external Gemini box an advantage over having all the electronics tucked away here and there inside the mount. Those boxes are easy to open and work on. In the event of a failure, you just send that little thing back for service. Celestron will probably require you to send in the whole massive mount head. In fact just about every part is available from Losmandy and easily installed by the user. Not sure about iOptron. Astro-Physics also sensibly uses an external control box. The Losmandy polar scope is really good with its variable power self-contained illuminator.
Must agree with your assessment. I first picked the CEM60 and was sorely disappointed. This mount oscillated like spring with the slightest disturbance, and I felt like I was doing the Beta testing for them. Customer service is high on excuses and short on action, plus I had great difficulty getting a refund. For some others online this mount appears to work great, so I must assume there is some lack of quality control. My opinion is the CEM60 is priced well beyond its actual performance. Meshing the worm gearm is delicate process and if done incorrectly you can strip the main sprocket. The manual is loaded with "Do Not" warnings.
The Losmandy is entirely solid, with precisely machined parts and modular parts you can replace, tune and service on your own if needed. This mount has been vibration free and performs under a wide spread of temperatures and payloads. Plus you can actually get Mr. Losmandy on the phone if you have any questions or concerns.
Glad Ioptron has worked for Astro Jeff, but all should research the forums and get the spectrum of opinions before making a purchase of this size.
Hi Jeff, I think you did a great job on this comparison. Agreed, the main limiting factor with the AZ/EQ mount is the under-spec'd tripod, which severely hampers that mounts performance for AP. My solution to that has been to use it on top of the incredibly sturdy EQ8 mount, which solves the vibration issues. A friend of mine who has the same mount put his on the Ioptron Tri-Pier for the same reason. My main reason for sticking with Sky-Watcher / Orion AZ/EQ though was the great functionality I got from EQMOD working in tandem with Sequence Generator Pro. Commanded by those softwares, the AZ/EQ (I have the white SW AZEQ6 GT Pro version) gives my superb pointing, very good tracking accuracy, quick set-up, parking options, multi-star alignments, the ability to use a game pad for adjustments, and much more.
Thanks for the great comments Dave, I loved my Atlas EQ-G w/EQMod!
Excellent video
Great video. Thanks.
Saw that video quite late after it was published. I use my mounts in remote, and EQMOD does not work well under these conditions. If there is a small power cut, the mount is lost and there is no way to recover it through EQMOD, unless, by luck, the mount has the good idea to be very close to where it believes it is. Which never happens. So one has to go to the mount, turn everything off, put it to the pole, start again and with some luck the mount believes it is on the pole, then you can take an image and resynch the mount. In remote operation that's a killer. Same joke for the EQ8... Other than that, the mount itself is nice, as is the EQ6 (mainly the new version).
Finally, someone who can actually manage cables. Great job.
A couple of words for Losmandy mounts. One of the most important parameter is the periodic error, especially the rate of change of periodic error. Losmandy’s periodic error is very good and smooth. And you can press the touch buttons on the controller in gloves.
If you watch the video from Celestron for the CGX they specifically talk about how the weight capacity of 55 pounds is actually pretty conservative and that it’s built to handle every ounce of that and they built it to actually handle a little bit more in case people push it the 50% rule for most of these systems isn’t really necessary manufacturers don’t typically double the realistic capacity it would only lead to poor performance and poor brand recognition
I know this video is pretty old but something i noticed about ppec was that if you turn off ppec, calibrate phd2, record pec, calibrate phd2 again then they dont seem to fight each other.
Dont know if thats a thing or not but semt to work for me.
That was awesome!!! Thanks... I am a first time buyer. Did the upgrades to the Atlas ll make a big difference in your opinion? Thanks in advance
Have you found replacement tightening/loosening bolts for the Tri-Pier? I hadn't realized how much I hate them as well until you mention it in the video.
I actually found that it wasn't as big of an issue as I thought it would be. I found a sweet spot of just loose enough to raise and lower the central pier and only have to turn the bolts a couple of times to tighten it down. Then the reverse for tear down. So, ultimately not an issue.
Not sure how long iOptron has been around but the lack of company info on their website (“iOptron is a global company...”) gives me less confidence than the possibility that Scott Losmandy may one day retire. I have a G11 and absolutely love the mount/tripod and absolutely hate the Gemini II system with its badly designed hand controller/menu system...which is why I’m thinking of switching mounts. Thanks for your well thought out video!
You're welcome! Thanks for the comment.
the first thing to evaluate before all the rest are the dimensions, the number of teeth, and the material (alluminium or bronze) of the two worm gears.
Have you seen the cem70?
Hi! Great videos! I have both the Eq45 pro as the Cem60 but I haven't been able to use them in the field yet.
Your videos helped me decide on the purchase so thank you for making them!
I have the tri-pier and the normal tripod, as the cem and tri-pier will be used for imaging and the others for visual.
I have 2 questions:
- is your polar scope reticle as loose as mine is? It wobbles when turned out to focus, and even shifts polaris, so I am not sure my polar alignment is good.
- I'm still going through your videos but I could really use a video for setting up and levelling the tri-pier in the field.
My polar scope doesn't move at all. I would contact iOptron to see if they can walk you through tighening it up.
I'll try and remember to add a bit of detail on the tri-pier setup next time out.
Astro Jeff it's not the polar scope itself, but the eyepiece. I have to rotate it a bit so it moves outward, in order to get the alignment circles sharp, and then it gets a bit loose. When I touch it, I can see the circles move. Polaris stays stable, it's just the engraving in the polar scope that is moving.
Excellent explanations! So I’m 90% positive I’ll be buying the cem60.. I will be imaging through an 8RC at 1650mm FL.. with precise polar alignment can you see it guiding well for 20-30 minute subs?
I think a lot of other things come into play imaging at longer focal lengths, balance is big, guiding scope/camera combo (arcsec/px ratio), seeing, wind, overall load on the mount, etc. I don't think the mount would be a limiting factor in the equation though. :) Happy imaging!!!
Good luck with your RC (I presume it's a GSO variant)...nightmares to fix focuser flex, collimate etc. Only the 10+ truss and larger RCs from GSO with the mark II focuser plates solve the flex/collimation issues btw.
The CEM60 has a payload of 60lb (27.2kg). You can halve that for imaging as a rule, so 30lb. The RC8 alone is around 17 lbs (8kg). Factor in your guide scope, camera, guide camera, filter wheel, adaptors, filters, counterweight, you're going to be pushing things to the limit and really have issues imho.
Longer focal length scopes present an even tougher challenge regarding polar alignment, and accurate tracking.
As to subs, what type of camera are you looking at? CCD or CMOS? They both work with data differently and you'll find subs will be different for either too.
What are you aiming to image? Such a long focal length will not online be difficult to polar align and have accurate tracking (ignoring the weight issues on the proposed mount), but will generally have a narrow FOV, making them more for imaging galaxies, small planetary nebula and planets. Forget wide field nebula unless you really want to go with mosaics.
Don't scrounge on software either. Photoshop by itself won't cut it imho. DSS and nebulosity are OK, but imho, spend the money and get PixInsight.
Great review. One question about power/cable management. 5amps in total is usually inadequate if you are using a cooled camera, few strips and so on. Have you made some additional calling? Also, since the USB ports are not powered how do you make use of them?
I run my camera off a dedicated power supply and everything else via the in mount 12v. Works well that way. I use a powered USB hub on top that everything plugs into, then that gets run through the mount using one USB cable. Never had any issues running it that way....so far. 😄
Thanks Jeff for this video! Currently i am struggling from a similar task, considering G11, CEM60 and some others - excellent reputation vs not sure. After a year of experience, what is your opinion today? Did you encounter the "whobbling", and what about stability and tracking accuracy?
Very satisfied. I don't think I'd have gotten much more by spending more cash. It easily does what I want it to do. :)
wouldn't your rig be top heavy with cem60 when loaded up past 27lbs compared to the other mounts with the same load and the CGX has lower center of gravity (I don't know if the COG can be used here}
That's where the counterweights come into play. They offset the weight above so it doesn't tip over. Thx!
For me when I was considering new mount after HEQ5 it was a no-brainier and I went for SkyWatcher AZ-EQ6, which is similar to Orion Az/EQ-Pro. After 3.5 years of using it all I can say that I'm extremely happy with it and the only mount I could exchange it with is SW EQ8, which is twice more expensive and can handle twice more payload, which I don't need for now.
Celestron CGX I was not even considering as it's clearly outsider for many reasons highlighted by you, and not only.
G11 is twice as expensive from what I paid for AZ-EQ6. It's also very heavy, so no.
CEM60 looks like a nice mount, but I didn't like the design. Also it doesn't have that single sweet thing that everyone is buying SkyWatcher mounts for - yes, EQMOD !
I did like EQMOD when using it with my EQ-6. Most of the software out there now has many of the same features so I don't really miss it that much. Glad you're enjoying the AZ-EQ6!
I’ve been thinking of the G11 but with the PMC8 system or the CEM60. As I’ve only owned belt driven mounts, can you explain what you meant by engaging the gears? Thank you. Great video!
Thanks! Most mounts have the worm & ring gears engaged at all times, then you release a clutch to allow for balancing, etc. The CEM60's gears actually separate when you turn the Disengage knob. This has the benefit of allowing very smooth motion for balancing, but the drawback of having to physically re-engaging the gears after balancing or for transport. It's only a worry the first few times you do it. Once you get used to it there's not an issue.
Astro Jeff no problem!
Perfect, that makes much more sense. I thought maybe you had to adjust them frequently. Thanks for your prompt reply!
Hi Jeff, did you consider SW EQ6 R Pro? I'm considering that and CEM60 and while CEM60 seems much better its also about 800$ more expensive, so trying to see if I could be just fine saving this extra money.
I did. It has similar capacity and features of the EQ-G that I had. My main concerns for that class of mount were payload and counterweight bar thickness. Otherwise I loved my EQ-G. I just wanted to eventually get into longer focal lengths/higher payloads. So it really depends on what you need for capacity. Both are quality mounts but I personally wouldn't go back.
Did you ever get new tripier bolts? If so, which ones?
I did not get new bolts. I found somewhat of a sweet spot where I could loosen each one a turn or two to collapse the pier, then when putting it up I just had to tighten them up a turn or two. Once I got the hang of it, it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be.
Did you consider the Vixen SXD2 w/ Star Book Ten?
I didn't look at that one for my purposes. It looks like a slightly lower payload. Seems like it would be good for a DSLR or small refractor setup though.
Also tried both the Ioptron and Losmandy. The CEM60 appeared to have nice features which did not perform as advertised, The mount head appeared choppy and unstable and overestimated load weights. Their Losmandy G11 proved extremely stable in both mount and tripod. Plus their online support community is very attentive and competent for troubleshooting. I give the quality award definitely to Losmandy with solid machining and US construction, CEM 60 made in China has poor representation in the States.
Yes, Losmandy is a very high quality mount, no arguments there! Appreciate the comments!
I bought mine brand new back in 2014. I love it. If I dropped it, it would probably break the ground. Only thing I find frustrating is some parts are constantly on a waiting list, but Losmandy is a small business.
CEM60 EC has real time PEC. Wonder if that would solve the tracking with guide problem. the price difference, though, is massive at about $1000
I think the recommendation is to NOT guide when using the EC version of PEC. I didn't really consider the EC version due to the much higher price.
The EC version has not lived up to the advertised claim you can image unguided. It's performance in that mode is even questionable for short periods. Most all EC owners use a guide scope, so why buy it? The base CEM60 is the better choice by far.
In my opinion, PEC is a compromise measure. It is better to not have periodic error, or to have as little as possible
The one thing I would have liked to have seen is what is the tracking like? After all that's what you buy a mount for. Backlash can be a real killer or uneven errors that are very hard to guide out.
Ahhh, if we could only know that BEFORE we buy a particular mount, that would be awesome!!! I will say the CEM60 is "as advertised", not better but not worse. I get about .6 - .7 RMS guiding on an average night. My PEC curve printout that came with the mount shows about +- 4 arc seconds. Check out the unboxing video to see it directly.
@@_Astrovert Part of what makes it so hard to get that information is how steady was the seeing and how well was the guiding software performing. The raw tracking can be awful on it's own but a good match of guiding software to mount can be truly wonderful or pure crap the software isn't set up correctly
@@weshandrow2011 Well said my friend, absolutely true!
I have a Celestron AVX mount and as m looking for a new one with more payload. I have been looking at the CEM60. Are you still happy with it?
I am! The few times I've been able to use it I've been very happy with it! I'm looking forward to doing a few live imaging sessions for youtube eventually.
If you put more weight farther out than the harder it will be for the gears to move that weight vs having more weight added but closer to the centre.
Yep, and with more weight out farther you can get some flex in the CW shaft if it's not thick enough.
Four years on, how is your mount doing? Do you think you made the right choice?
Yeah! I use it regularly, now with a 130mm Triplet, mono camera, filterwheel etc. Works great, guides between .5-.75 RMS. One issue with a control board but iOptron sent a replacement and no other issues. Pretty happy with it.
Hi Astro Jeff, if money was no object with these mounts, which one would you now choose? Cheers!
If money were no object I'd look at the Astro Physics or Paramounts, however, I think the difference in quality is narrowing as time goes by. Software can do a lot now to make up for flaws in tracking and guiding in midrange mounts. Drivers are a lot more stable today too. There aren't as many issues with goto, especially if you are plate solving then slewing. So as long as you don't overload the mount and have decent balance and alignment I think most mounts are capable of amazing work. I'm still super happy with the CEM60 and use it regularly as time permits.
Also if money is tight around 1500.00 usd get the new improved eq-6r pro from skywatcher.
Good point. I've heard some good comments on the improvements to the EQ-6 line.
did you spend more than you anticipated?
Not really. I was prepared to go as high as $3400 with the G11 but the CEM60 met my needs. I even saved a few hundred getting the mount on sale and the tripier w/case used.
@@_Astrovert I am planning to buy CEM60. Any tips of finding sale/discount for the mount?
I've seen them on sale for up to 5% off. I think one time was around US Thanksgiving and the other was after Christmas. I purchased online from OPT in California.
Its all theory, I image at 46 to 52 lbs on CGX and had no issues for over a year now and I have the 2” oem tripod
AstroDabawenyo I’m gonna buy a CGX-L tomorrow the Amazing Allstar alignment
@@Eire32 I tested the CGX because Celestron claims it will track up to its maximum payload, although I only max out at 52lbs it really tracks good and my tripod sits on a wooden deck..CGX-L is 75lbs payload so you wont be disappointed
AstroDabawenyo what do you get unguided 3 minutes I’ll use the baader Polaris crosshair eyepiece
Just fyi, 20mm CW shaft in the cgx is plenty for up to 120 pounds. Physics lesson needed before marking the 20mm shaft as Red. Material properties class 101. 20mm steel rod wont even bend whatsoever with 350 pounds on it. Give it a try. Stand on it!
i go g11 every time
with a long term mount, why not invest in something like the Astro-physics Mach 1 GTO or a 2nd hand AP900, both of which will KILL any of the mounts listed in your video. Yes, they'll cost more, but they will last a life time, unlike the 4 mounts you list...
I agree, those AP mounts are fantastic by all accounts. I just can't justify putting that much money into a mount, and then add even more with accessories. This is just a hobby for me (and for most). Also, I see a lot of AP and other high end mounts on the astro sites' classsifieds. It makes me wonder if the owners have second thoughts as well about having that much money tied up in a mount. After all, what is there to upgrade to after having one of the best mounts out there? Trust me, I'm not knocking high end mounts, I just don't need one. Kinda like a Ferarri. :)
yeah, I get it. I guess I looked at it from this point of view - say, 2800 for the CEM60, it may last 10 years if you're lucky...that's 280/year. An AP900 will probably last 30 years....so $/year is probably better bang for buck over a long term period of time.
Upgradeitis is prolly not an issue either with the better mount. Factor in the cost of your original mount, and the CEM60 and you'll see what I mean.
I have an older EQ6 pro that I need to pull apart and strip and clean and re-test as it hasn't been used for near 9 or 10 years now. A long hiatus from the hobby. These days, I have many issues with my lower back, and abdomen (hernia) and the EQ6 pro is too heavy for me to even set up (as are all the other mounts), so I prolly won't get anymore action out of the hobby, unless I win lotto and can afford to buy a place in a rural area and set up a permanent pier/observatory. :(
@@davepastern The Losmandy G11 won't last a lifetime? The thing is chiseled out of steel bro.
we'll see.
@@JMac85X there have actually been a lot of issues with the G11, just go look on cloudynights.
Remember that rule of half the capacity is not golden and more or less opinions. Unless you're doing 15-30 min sub which is highly unlikely then it's not necessary to use that rule. Personally I think it's silly.
I agree. I think careful balancing, a solid tripod/pier, shorter FL, CW placement and common sense can along can go a long way to allow a capacity closer to, if not at, a mount's specs. It's a good rule of thumb to start with though just to save yourself some self inflicted pain. For example don't plop an 11'' SCT w/imaging gear on an Atlas and expect no issues even though you're under 40lbs.
@@_Astrovert I ran a 26lb Meade SCT with accessories on an AVX. Got 5 minute subs without hiccups. Spoke with Celestron afterwards and they informed me that the load capacity listed isn't the limit. It's a listed limit for quality. Although with the AVX, you get a good one, you get a bad one. I had a great one. lol
Made in China was something I couldn’t stomach any longer. My Losmandy is 100% made in USA 🇺🇸
You got the G11 Mount head weight wrong .. it comes in at a whopping 62lbs. Unless , you were looking at G11GLT..
G11GT
44 lb / 20 kg (Right Ascension Module)
18 lb / 8.2 kg (Declination Module)
62 lb / 28.1 kg (Fully Assembled
Sir I think that You are not looking at the G11G The total mount head is around 34 lbs.(not including weights) This is what He was comparing not the Titan
sorry but 15-20 max payload difference from the cgx to the g11???really?pathetic
Love you.