A Song of Ice and Fire: Tower, Tower, Joy, Joy Part 1
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- Опубликовано: 21 окт 2024
- Part 1 of a detailed analysis of Jon parentage, the Tower of Joy and whether or not the popular theory R + L = J really holds up.
Part 2: • A Song of Ice and Fire...
Part 3: • A Song of Ice and Fire...
Alliances of Iron (The Ironborn, Theon, Balon, Asha, Euron, Victarion, Daario, Moqorro, the Corsair King, the Shrouded Lord, Dragon Horns)
• A Song of Ice and Fire...
Tower, Tower, Joy, Joy (The Tower of Joy, Jon Snow’s Parentage, Daenerys’ Parentage, the Tournament at Harrenhal, Howland Reed, Ashara Dayne)
• A Song of Ice and Fire...
The Littlefinger Debt Scheme (Littlefinger, Sansa, Harrenhal, the Riot of King’s Landing, Ned’s Execution, the Bank of Braavos)
• A Song of Ice and Fire...
The Dornish Master Plan (Qyburn, the Brave Companions, Aemon, Mirri Maz Duur, Quentyn)
• A Song of Ice and Fire...
Riverlands of the Dragon (The Brotherhood Without Banners, Thoros, House Darry)
• A Song of Ice and Fire...
Dragonless Ambitions (Maesters, the Dance of the Dragons, House Hightower)
• A Song of Ice and Fire...
Cold Conspiracies (Stannis, House Manderly, House Umber, the Hooded Man, the Battle of Ice)
• A Song of Ice and Fire...
The Pink Letter Mystery (Mance Rayder, Val, Tormund Giantsbane, Giants, Greenseers)
• A Song of Ice and Fire...
Daenerys (Quaithe, Viserys, Drogo, Jhorah, Illyrio, Qarth, Pyat Pree, the House with the Red Door)
• Daenerys Videos
What You Are Missing (a detailed show and book comparison)
• Game of Thrones: What ...
Season Five Watch (The Season Five review)
• Game of Thrones: Seaso...
NO. Jon does not get to ride a unicorn.
That honor goes to Rickon.
Filip Ferenčak I hope rickon’s unicorn knows how to zig zag
And Davos. Gods willing…
Don't you mean to ser Flement of House Brax??
"Jon's secretly king, and he's the prince that was promised, and he's gonna save the world, and he's gonna ride a dragon, and he's gonna kill some ice zombies, and he's gonna marry Dany, and he's gonna ride a unicorn, and he's gonna go down a rainbow..." that killed me ! xD
6/8 correct lol
That nailed me 100% 😂
@@thedarksideEU he’s being sarcastic
Okay okay okay... if you're right about the unicorn and the rainbow then we know the John character was only written in because GRRM is looking for 70's and 80's rock van groupies.
When I read this comment I no joke thought the end of the quote you quoted mentioned going down on a unicorn and my brain did a tripletake
hey dude, like your videos and all, but i do want to jump on one thing real quick.
You asked "how could lyanna become so good at jousting all of a sudden?", which is a valid question. In the books, jaime talks about how jousting is mainly horsemanship, with less skill required for the lance. Think "its easier to knock someone off than it is to stay on yourself". Lyanna in the books is described as having a strangely strong connection to her horse, and is even described as half centaur by some. The implication is that Lyanna was a low level warg and had a strong attachment to her horse. If we accept Jaime's theory that jousting is mainly horsemanship (and we should, because hes described as one of the best jousters in the kingdoms), then we should conclude that anyone who was a partial warg with a horse should be able to absolutely kick ass at jousting pretty naturally.
Still though, I like your vids! Keep them coming!
So that modestymaltese asshole disabled my replies and I couldn't post this:
Lyanna did not worship the Seven, she worshiped the Old Gods and would marry under them. Not that it would matter, the Sept always opposed polygamy and incest but the Targaryens have a history of both despite the Sept's wishes. Tywin's opinion neither mattered nor was it sought as he had already left his post as Hand of the King before the war started. Jon Arryn might oppose, but why would that matter to Rhaegar or anyone before Robert took the throne? A secret heir would only be rejected if the alternative wasn't worse (whole kingdoms would pull a Barristan Selmy if they thought the Targaryen was the better option).
I think you are taking it too far with the warging thing, but the rest I can agree with.
modestymaltese I wouldn't say that I am. Warging is in the starks blood, clearly. The fact that Rickon, Rob, Jon and Arya all show high connections with their direwolves is no coincidence, and Bran outright wargs. Remember how Martin writes. He can't say it outright, but if he shows the aunt of 5 wargs having a VERY close connection to an animal, to the point where people start referring to her as half horse (a centaur they called her), I would say that is Martin telling us that she is doing some low level warging. Obviously not to the degree of Bran, who truly realizes his abilities, and can move on to different animals. but more on par with Jon, Rob, Rickon and Arya, who seem to have at very least a mental connection with their own wolves, but don't actually leave their human bodies. And I doubt she dreamed herself into her beast like Arya frequently does. like it or dont though, im not gonna bicker with you again
Petyr Baelish It can be read that way, but I think it's a stretch, because in book 1 a big emphasis is given to the "return of magic" that, amongst other things, enabled warging south of the Wall. Lyanna was long dead by then.
modestymaltese warging is old magic. It didn't need dragons.One of the prologues shows a warg who is at least mid twenties (probably alot older) who had been warging since he was a kid. He was north of the wall, yes, but I don't think the wall plays a role in this
your first minute of this video is basically the plotline of Jon Snow in the show
Ummm.... what
Not even... it's worse
Agreed the shows plot, or lack there of, was even worse.
Tell me... That it is not true it the book as well.
🔥🐲
@@QueenDaenerysTargaryen it will
"...and marry Danny, and ride a unicorn,and slide down a rainbow," funniest shit ever
+Michael Gagliardi It's as possible as R + L = J, not 100% sold on this theory version but it is far more feasible than a Targaryen kid being passed off as a Stark
Yeah... Did you see Carmine's new videos yet though?
I don't think so, who is Carmine?
Red team review.. He does a lot thrones stuff
Ahh. No I haven't :(
Thank you for this. The role Ashara plays in this has bugged me for a good while, especially the point that Eddard forbids mentioning her name.
I've always just assumed R + L = J, and that Ashara was part of some tangentially related love story with Ned. Ned + Ashara at Harrenhal, Ned "dishonors" her but promises to wed her or something like that (hell, it may have already been secretly aranged, as Rickard had wanted his children wed to Southron nobility in order to strengthen Northern ties with the South), but then the war happens and Ned has to bring in the Riverlands armies for the war. Ned marries Catelyn, fights the war, kills Arthur Dayne, returns Dawn to Starfall and tells Ashara that he killed her brother. This eventually drives Ashara to commit suicide. Ned hates himself for what he put Ashara through, and can't square it with the image of the honorable man he sees himself as. He forbids mention of the woman he loved so as not to be forced to remember the heartache, and the greatest shame in his life.
Like I said, that's just how I'd figured things. Interested in seeing how you fit Ashara into a larger picture involving Jon.
3:37 - "It doesn't explain why Lyanna was so good at jousting."
In one of Bran's weirwood visions in ADwD, he saw Lyanna beating Benjen. Also, Roose Bolton comments on how good Lyanna was at riding, saying how she's half-horse herself, and how only his trueborn son Domeric is the only one who can outrace her.
Still no booming voice.
Inkaalhun Variinvu Full face helmet + trying to disguise your voice.
That didn't gave the other men a booming voice.
And disguising your voice? After three exhausting duels? No I don't buy that.
and she could ride, but jousting is not just about riding.
The True King Joffrey GoT Loras vs the Mountain shows that in GRRM's world, jousting is mostly horsemanship. There's the Dunk and Egg novellas too, where an unassuming man is a master jouster.
"...probably by throwing a frog at him"
ROFL
Saeyabor Cpt Ginyu vs Vegeta popped into my head, dunno why. When Goku throws a frog to stop the body transformation.
If I remember correctly there are a few sentences in the books that imply that a) Lyanna was better rider than her brothers and b) a competent warrior. She got the booming voice by shouting inside a helmet.
As for the Ashara Dayne angle- Ned fell in love with her at the Tourney of Harrenhal, and presumably she fell for him. However, Ned had to marry Catelyn Tully to fulfill the obligation of his brother, Ashara, having lost her brother and the man the liked/loved said it was all to much and took the plunge...
But we find out that it was Ned let Howland use his tent for tge tourney…
Probably by throwing a frog at him. ... :D
Y r u guys holding ur dicks here and not fighting the war 😂😝
When it's said that Ned and Reed bring down the Tower of Joy, it just means that they over saw it's destruction not that they did it themselves. Like saying Henry lll rebuilt Westminster. No he didn't build it himself just over saw the building.
Fair point. But it sounds like they had it brought down in a short period of time, and they were supposed to be alone. The events at the Tower of Joy seem to involve a few people, and most of them died there.
We can all agree it's a set of events shrouded in secrecy, so for that to remain secret, there can't be many people involved.
I have a concern with this theory. If B+A=J, why does Ned lie about Jon's parentage? As I see it Ned has literally no reason to sacrifice his own honour and sour relations with his wife by claiming Jon is his own bastard son.
Finnegann maybe because a bastard could have a higher claim to Winterfell if he were ever legitimized. Not to mention the dishonor it would bring to house Dayne. I mean I don’t know, I’m just reaching at this point.
@@mikaelmilnikov So is Preston
OOOOOOOOOOH
Well, it seems fathering bastards doesn't dishonor yourself. The children get the blame for being bastards. Women get shame for having premarital sex or having affairs outside their marriage. The benefits of the patriarchy, I suppose.
@@dirrdevil Yeah but Ned still endured years of bitterness with Catelyn over it, and saw how Catelyn treated Jon. I can't believe he would have said nothing still
@@dirrdevil most likely he took Jon to spare Ashara the shame in my opinion, and he did house Dayne a solid
Q&A: Timeline wise, how is Dany younger than Jon? In the books, GRRM said that at the start Dany is 13 and Jon 14. Plus, if I remember correctly, GRRM has said in an interview that Jon is older by 6 months than Dany. So, the whole R+L=J might not even fit the timeline.
Suppose it depends on how fast Stannis could have mustered a fleet to get to Dragonstone.
Ned thinks about rhaegar all the time, when he's in the crypts with robert he thinks " i can't recall." when robert is talking about Rhaegar, he means he can't recall OUT LOUD in the fear of robert learning the truth.
People may have already pointed this out but.....If Jon is Ashara's child and she is alive I cannot see her having a Quaithe like vested interest in Dany while completely abandoning Jon. If you have the ability to send dreams, use a glass candle to keep tabs, etc wouldn't Ashara/Quaithe have looked after Dany and her own son Jon? Especially after Ned's death the man she gave her son to? Jon isn't exactly safe at the wall yet all the guidance goes to Dany.
Well that’s assuming that Ashara is quaith.
I felt Ned sent Jon to the wall so he would be beyond the kings reach. Ned told Jon he would tell him who his mother is next time he sees him a promise. I feel a lot of people turned on the king in the last days and Jaime Lannister and other kingsguards may have helped R & L escape
Hmm but if Jon stayed at Winterfell he would still be beyond the kings reach. something in this story doesn’t make sense since their is a piece of the puzzle missing.
I think their is a baby swap going on here.
So basically
Find Howland Reed
Rhaegar... You ARE, the father!
AlwonDomz OOHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!
+AlwonDomz My father,
Rhaegar: "No, that's not possible... I pulled out..."
+will be my end LOL
👏👏😂😂😂
I'm watching this from 2020 when people are arguing about Jon's real name, and I'm just like his name is Jon
Lyanna was a good horseback rider Roose Bolton says she was a Centaur. That's where her riding skills come from and she was wild also so she could have had interests in tourney riding. That's one of the reasons Ned lets Arya continue sword play because she reminds him of Lyanna.
Eddard Stark did not father Jon Snow. This much can be literarily proven.
Eddard Stark is what is known in literature as a paradigm; he represents an idea. In his case, it is honor. Honor dictates everything Eddard Stark does and how he does it.
Yet stories require characters to develop, which means gradually to change. Eddard Stark's change comes when Lord Varys suggests that Eddard Stark publicly recant his support for Stannis Baratheon as rightful heir, in exchange for Sansa's life. Eddard Stark thus defies a principle -- in opposition to honor -- in order to save his daughter's life. This compromise of principle is what makes Eddard Stark's recanting so literarily poignant. If Eddard Stark were actually a man prone to dishonor -- such as by fathering bastards -- then his change of heart could not be a centerpiece of the story.
jon + daenerys = Jaehaerys
yanyan smart Oh shit.
Adriel Lopez It's more likely that Eddard named Jon after Jon Arryn.
BucketheadChuck eddard didnt name jon, lyanna and rhaegar must have had a name chosen if they did get married in secret after rhaegar told her of the prophecy and the song of ice and fire
Adriel Lopez We don't know for sure who named Jon. However, the argument of Rhaegar and Lyanna naming him after Jon Connington is pretty weak. Jon Connington was in love with Rhaegar, but they weren't even great friends. It they were to go that route why not name him after Arthur Dayne? Who we know for sure was Rhaegar's best friend.
Also, given Rhaegar's obsession with fulfilling prophecy, and that "the dragon must have three heads," the most logical inference is that Jon was originally named Viserys, because Rhaegar already had an Aegon and a Rhaenys, only missing Visenya from the original Conquering trio.
However, given the circumstances of the war, and the state in which Lyanna was found in, it's not credible that she wasted time telling Eddard what she had named her child. She was dying. I bet the little life she had in her was spent making Eddard swear to keep his promise.
BucketheadChuck okay your explanation makes sense, and yes rhaegar was expecting a girl and it would have been visenya
(promise me ned, the prince(ss) that was promised) *There is sometimes translation errors in the prophecies* -Melisandre
In AGoT it is mentioned that Catelyn asks Ned about the matter. Her exact wording is not given, so she might very well have straightly asked into Ned's face, whether Ashara is Jon's mother, or at least mentioned Jon in some way.
I love your videos Preston. I do take issue with one thing here though. You say that R+L=J isn't right for the story we're being told, because it's too straight forward. Let me make the case that this is in fact incredible writing.
GRRM has lured us into reading obsessively closely, weighing every word for hidden meaning. How did he do that? By having different levels of conspiracies.
We frequently forget the first mystery Game Of Thrones provided us with, and that's because it was solved in the text by the characters. Joffrey's parentage. By the time it was revealed, us readers realized that there were hints to this throughout the text. And that made us read closer. The very next mystery that becomes apparent upon rereading GoT more closely is R+L=J. Our focus was rewarded, and made us read even more closely after that. And it's from there that we all became obsessed.
So what I'm saying is that R+L=J is straight forward because it had to be, to draw us in to start considering things like "who is Lemore really" and "are the Others really evil." It's a level two conspiracy, meant to bring us in to go nuts over the real meat of the series, the level three conspiracies.
Now what's a shame is that the show is leaving it there at R+L=J and not taking advantage of any level threes.
I think...
R + L = Dany &
N + A = Jon
Ned hasn't thought of Rhaegar in YEARS and Jon looks like Ned's clone.
When Ned was arrested, he went against his honor & lied about trying to usurp Robert's throne. Ned will lie if its for the greater good. Hasn't the fandom thought how STRONGLY Ned went Robert for wanting to kill Daenerys?? He was willing to get the king in rage & lost his job & possibly even hurt his family name & his family position at winterfell. Why? Because Daenerys is his niece - Lyanna's daughter. It makes perfect sense. I like these theories much better than R + L = J
I like the part where Jon finds a unicorn and slides down a rainbow. Awesome!
Me too! Hahahah
The mystery knight didnt have a booming voice. It was said that when they spoke their voice boomed through their helmet. Small but significant difference 🤷🏻♂️
I think it's more telling that the circumstances in which Eddard can really dwell on Jon's origins (when Cat wants to send him away; moments before his execution) occur during someone else's POV chapter.
Whatever the case, Ned is definitely NOT his father. "Ned thought, 'If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do?' "Straight from the books. Which child is missing? Hmmm...."
He knows Jon
Sorry, I like a lot of your theories, but R+L is pretty hard to topple, and has way more evidence than this.
Just a quick thought about lineage, as it plays a pretty large part in the books, particularly GoT. If Rhaegar and Lyanna had a child, the rest of the lineage of house Targaryen should have us believe that the child should inherit prominent Valerian features (the white hair and purple eyes) as all of the targaryens seem to have. However Jon has dark hair and dark eyes, like the Starks. If King Robert's family give us any clues, it's that darker hair and features should 'win' over lighter ones, except in the case of valerians, as their features seem to remain strong. As Rhaegar (Valerian-ish) was the father, the child should really inherit white hair and purple eyes (like daenerys) regardless of the mother's features. The inheritance point might have a pretty large part to play, GRRM does drive it home in Ned's mystery solving with the book Pycelle gives him, it could also be a recurring theme, there are a lot of parallels after all.
Targeryens have a very tight gene pool, if the don't marry their sibling, there marring their first cousin or second cousin, if you look at Targs born outside the the incest pool, they take the appearance of their mother, and the ones born to look like a Targ usually have blond hair ( less valerian magic in thier blood I'm assuming). I noticed every first born Targ outside the incest pool, take appearance of their mother. For example Baleor Breakspear, Duncan the Small, Rhaenrys daughter of Rhaegar, so based off of genetics R+L=D cannot work, because dany would have stark features. It makes no sense for a narrative purpose for dany to not be a full incest Targeryan. There is a lot of holes In his theory.
1. Lemon threes don't grow Bravos, so far that's what we been told, so preston says she might have grown up in dorne because of lemon trees, but dany also remembers the lemon tree with grasslands, Dorne is rocky and for must part a desert, grasslands aren't growing in dorne.
2. Brandon and Ashara, tourney at harrenhall happened about a year behavior the war starts, Preston thinks the hooked up in the dungeons of kings landing, you really think Ashara the hand maiden has any pull In the red keep, Rhaegar is not there, so Elia Martell doesn't have any power, it makes no sense.
3. Ned stark didn't stay to protect dany, he quit and he was ready to go backed to winterfell, he stayed because little finger made him check out something.
4. Baby swap makes no sense, inheritance issues in Dorne? Really? Ashara has a older brother besides Arthur dayne, the father of Eric Dayne. How in the hell is Ned going to ship off a baby to dragon stone and making up a story about rhaella having a baby too. A dronish ship going pass the storm land waters you got be fucking kidding me. Read the history of the stromlands and breakersships bay, there is no way a infant child I'd surviving that trip.
5. Viseryes hating Dany because she has a better claim than him, no she does not, queen alicent back in the dance of dragons passed a law that it will always goes to a male heir despite where they stand in the order. So the will inherent before a women. The hate that Viseryes has for dany, is because thier mother died during childbirth, just like how cersei hates tryion.
This theory is made just to go against the popularity of R+L=J. I could be wrong, but Preston has no evidence to support R+L=d
The Harrenhal tourney was not about getting with Lyanna it was about Rhaegar meeting the other High Lords to try to bloodlessly remove Aerys because of his growing madness and reclusiveness. But Varys found out about it told the King of Rhaegar and his other kingsguards plotting and Aerys went to the Tourney. That is when Rhaegar met Lyanna and the rest is history.
According to Varys, the tourney was about Rhaegar meeting with high lords. Yet, where was Rickard Stark, Hoster Tully, Doran Martell and many others? Not there. Rhaegar already had gotten winter roses. He knew he was crowning Lyanna beforehand.
Preston Jacobs Any evidence of this. Where was it stated that Rhaegar had gotten the winter roses before hand?
Well Tywin Lannister was going to attend the Tourney until it was said the King was attending. Then he dropped out and Jaime went without his permission and Aerys tricked him into entering the Kingsguard. It is not farfetched to say the other Wardens did the same. Rickard, Hoster, Jon, and Stephron Baratheon were all old friends from the War of the Ninepenny kings.
John Khantzian How else would he have gotten them if not before? Say Rhaegar really was impressed with Lyanna's Laughing Tree thing and wanted to reward her at Harrenhal. How would he have gotten winter roses so quickly? They're from the north, yes? He had to have planned it before. I also don't buy the Rhaegar plot because we already know that Rickard, Hoster, Jon and Stephron had a plot that Rhaegar was not part of: Southron Ambitions.
Catelyn did ask about Jon. She asked about a rumour about his parentage, of course she was inquiring about Jon.
That's not what the text says. The tales are of : "Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes." and Cat asks the truth of it.
Preston Jacobs Sentance straight before your quote:"Ned would not speak of the MOTHER, not so much as word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husbands soldiers." Catelyn II, page 62 in my book.
Best case scenario you're being extremely selective, if you truly think the question Catelyn took a fortnight to gather courage to ask was unrelated to Jon I don't even know what to say to you
This is also not the only problem with your video but I can't be bothered challenging the others.
ZombieDori Same here
Preston Jacobs She was obviously asking about Ashara being Jon's mother given the rumors that she heard.
ZombieDori Speaking from experience, It takes a lot to get the courage to question a partner about them cheating on you. So your point is bullshit.
ahaha..that opening! "TOJ, Let's do this shit! ...and he's gonna ride a unicorn...and he's gonna slide down a rainbow...and" Lol xD This thing is informative and hilarious, dude!
finding a video of yours in my subscription feed is like getting a birthday gift, keep doing what you do best
In Ned chapters alone, Rhaegar is mentioned 13 times before the quote you're citing.
The quote in Eddard IX:
"For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen."
In fact, Ned thinks of him more than Dany. Here is the first occurrence of "Rhaegar" in every chapter that he is mentioned up to this quote:
Eddard I
"I vowed to kill RHAEGAR for what he did to her."
Eddard II
He remembered the angry words they had exchanged when Tywin Lannister had presented Robert with the corpses of RHAEGAR's wife and children as a token of fealty.
Eddard III
Ser Raymun lived under the king's peace, but his family had fought beneath RHAEGAR's dragon banners at the Trident, and his three older brothers had died there, a truth neither Robert nor Ser Raymun had forgotten.
Eddard IV
He remembered RHAEGAR's infant son, the red ruin of his skull, and the way the king had turned away, as he had turned away in Darry's audience hall not so long ago.
Eddard VII
Then Cersei would fall, and the Kingslayer with her, and if Lord Tywin dared to rouse the west, Robert would smash him as he had smashed RHAEGAR Targaryen on the Trident.
Eddard VIII
"Your Grace, I never knew you to fear RHAEGAR."
Eddard IX
For the first time in years, he found himself remembering RHAEGAR Targaryen.
That's all within the last year of Ned's life, so obviously Ned has been purposely blocking out thoughts of Rhaegar and repressing them.
I think you're reaching too much for evidence against R+L, much more so than R+L theory has to. Radio Westeros has an awesome podcast for just R+L which talks about it critically and the alternatives. I actually compiled some awesome evidence in Ned 3 and 4 which really show how much it's right there in Ned's mind, subconsciously or not.
+Preston Jacobs I really enjoy your theories, they are quite fascinating. The format of your videos is, IMO, the best of the ASOIAF channels I've seen (I like that you don't film yourself). I've been watching your videos for awhile, many several times, so please forgive me, I may start nitpicking bits of your theories. Starting with: if Wylla were at the tower, she wouldn't necessarily need to have a baby herself. Many wet-nurses had still-borns, miscarriages, or children who died soon after they were born. The mothers still produce milk as if the child hadn't died. Again, love your work, and please keep it up.
Rhaegar has performed quite well at other tournaments. Making the finals and semi's several times before harrenhal. Seems to me when he had something to really fight for he was deadly. Let's not forget that rhaegar wounded robert to the point that he could not ride to king's landing. Remember jorah's jousting story
FANTASTIC WORK there, but damn, the pace dude, THE PACE! I had to watch it over and over to catch up. I wouldn't mind a 15 mins video instead of a 9.30 one.
The pace is breakneck, but it's so interesting I shan't mind watching this three year old video plenty of times!
The reason why Ned couldn't think of Rhaegar or Jon properly is called the defense mechanism. Come on, he saw his sister die, it's only natural that he wanted to forget all about it. You just don't like Jon, won't make him ordinary!
God this story is the best part of this entire series
+MxZeal This story is the point of the series.
+Richard Decredico according to Preston, the moment Sansa prevents her own possible rape/murder by the Hound by singing "The Mother" song, an anti-war song, is the the point
+Richard Decredico the point of the series is anti war
agree
"probably by throwing a frog at him" lol bless
Man, I was pumped to see the little +1 next to your name on my subscribed list. This didn't disappoint. Keep up the great work.
If readers were able to figure out the ending to some major plot point in the book early on in the series (big enough to cause grrm to consider changing the story) then it is totally possible that R+L=J is it.
I feel like you missed the point of the conversation between Ned and the Kingsguard. The questions Ned asks them specifically point to the fact that they are staunch Targ supporters. Specifically the kingsguard say that if they had been in Kingslanding, Aerys would still sit the Iron Throne. If R+L/=J, then Viserys would be next in line to be king, but the kingsguard specifically says that Viserys has no kingsguard and that they are where they should be. The specifically receit that they swore a vow, and we know there must always be a Kingsguard with the king.
So who is the Targaryen King in the tower of joy?
We will get to the Kingsguard in future parts.
Q&A: Does "we swore a vow" warrant a close reading of the details of the vow that would permit the King's Guard to abandon Rhaella, Viserys, and Daenerys on orders from not-king Rhaegar? If Dayne was THE honorable knight, the legality of his actions should be ironclad.
perhaps but we don't know remember when the 3 eyed crow looked sad when bran called his father? something up that tower happened horribly we cant know until Gandalf sorry I meant GRRM tell us about it in his book too much mystery!!!
An interesting theory, but just a bit too complex to make it actually fit. I think you've talked yourself in circles when the most plausible theory is the right one. Ned would say that the child is his simply to not besmirch his dead sister's honour and to keep his friend Robert, happy. Could you imagine if Robert knew the actual truth? I don't believe Ned took Jon to protect the child, It is to me more plausible that it was to protect his friend' image of L and to protect his sister's memory.
+Sio Shippe ohhhhhhh crap good one never thought of that
the story being "messy" does not make a "clean" theory false. there are many theories that were pretty straightforward and "clean" that became true. grrm is not a hack, when he comes up with a twist, he buries evidence and foreshadowing so it isn't out of nowhere. i really hope this series of videos doesn't turn into a tinfoily mess, because your videos are the best ASOIAF vids on youtube. cheers.
Oh god that intro, my sides...
+TybrosionMojito ikr xD
+Vesper Worst smg ever lol
And he’s gona do nothing, and he’s gonna say she is ma quwen
Your whole theory is really well made and it would be a lovely surprise to see that in the books. But here's why I don't buy it: there isn't a single mention of Ashara Dayne in the show, while Lyanna's been constantly reminded and foreshadowed as Jon's mom. I know what you're gonna say: the show is the show. Martin can't take the blame for the show's screw up. But we know that, if there's one thing the showrunner know about how the books end, it is who is Jon Snow's mother. If they knew it was Ashara,we would've been listening to her a lot more than we do in the show. In fact, hell, I don't remember a single mention to her. The most probable is that Jon is really Lyanna's son.
+Igor Machado There isn't a single mention of her. Hell, her brother gets ONE mention. In Season ONE.
This theory is interesting, but I think one of the biggest flaws with it is simple genetics. Daenerys is described as looking very Targaryen. This includes her silver blond hair. At least in real life biology, blond hair is a recessive trait, while brown hair is dominant. Starks are described as having dark hair. If a Stark and a Targaryen had a baby, the odds are that baby would have dark hair (like Jon Snow). If Daenerys is in fact half Stark, there could only be three explanations as to why she looks so Targaryen. 1. The Starks have Targaryen blood and Daenerys just happened to get the recessive genes that have been in the Stark DNA for ages, but just haven't expressed themselves. 2. Daenerys is under a glamour spell. 3. Somebody has been dying Daenerys's hair all her life. Explanation two can be thrown out, seeing as it is never mentioned that she has a jewel that she wears at all times. Three seems unlikely as well. Keeping dark hair blonde requires a lot of bleach and at some point she would have gotten dark roots and the secret would have come out. This leaves explanation one. I don't recall any Stark/Targaryen marriages, but it does seem possible that the most powerful house of the North would have had some sort of marriage alliance with the Targaryens at some point. Still it seems unlikely that the Targaryen traits never expressed themselves before Daenerys.
HR: If only your parents could see you as you are now, Lord Snow.
JS: Who was my mother Lord Reed?
HR: Wylla, obviously.
By the gods, new and old, What are you brilliant guys doing!?
R+L=J has been a standard for so long going against it seems like madness.
I have a fondness for this type of madness.
The whole story seems too convoluted and strange to be so straightforward. You guys bring out all the facts and show just how messed the various stories are and how the timeline doesn't seem to fit.
The major question is if he didn't go to Winterfell after Jon Arrey raised his banners, then why did Godric Borrell say he had gone there or didn't Ned go there only to get to Winterfell and Borrel had his story change?
I simply think that Godric is confusing and combining a lot of sea-going gossip.
Preston Jacobs Do you know how many people are going to die within that week? They were counting on you... Promise me Preston, Promise me.
Preston Jacobs Hey Preston love your shit. If you ever see this, now that o found you commenting on it, I've been trying to find where it's specified that only the lords and kings of winterfell were buried in the crypts. Everywhere I've found only says "bury their dead" which is vague. And I consider this one of the linchpins of this theory. If you respond thanks.
'Probably threw a frog at him' Thats such a hilarious line. It does sound like a Paris Achilles situation as Arthur Dayne was so badass. Great video's. I'm watching as many as I can :D
Preston, your theory with Dany impressed me a lot. So last night we got the confirmation of R+L=J. Fans and supporters if that theory are all happy. But: to me this scene seemed odd, like not being complete. D&D said the show won't spoil the new book. And perhaps it has not. Perhaps there is still a secret to be revealed in the book and then in season 7??? Dany being Jons younger aunt seems strange. It does not fit reallt. Why do we see the sword Dawn so clearly in the ToJ scene? Why were there whispers to Ned? Why was the scene so short? Fans waited for years to bath into its reveal?! Why was put so much into reminding viewers of Danys father being the mad king in recent episodes and in the summary? For book readers there are a lot of matters unclear still. It would be great to make a video on this. I watched the ToJ scene with my cousin who does not know the books. She is just a weekly show watcher and she did not understand the scene really...so ToJ2.0 in season7???
Well HBO has just confirmed that Rhaegar Targaeryn is the father of Jon Snow.
www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-3667087/Jon-Snow-s-parentage-officially-confirmed-new-HBO-Game-Thrones-chart.html
Now, whilst it's theoretically possible that Jon Snow's parentage is different in the books, its extremely unlikely. D&D may be diverting from the books but they'll end in the same place. If Jon Snow's parentage is important in the books, then its definitely important in the show, and with all their deviations it could be that Jon's parents being Lyana and Rhaegar could be the key to the conclusion of that series.
Also Preston's theory relies on a bastardised (no pun intended) version of Ned Stark. Cheating the rightful heir out of his inheritance because of "politics"? Really? Preston has the most in-depth knowledge of the Game of Thrones Lore and of G.R.R. Martin, but he looked so hard at a small point you could no longer see the bigger picture. That's what I think happened here. He's definitely right when he said that his theory could very well be wrong. Because it is.
Frankly. there is more thematic weight in Ned Stark sacrificing his "honour" for a more honourable cause (a promise to his sister to protect her child) than to simply being mindful of politics, which Ned never cared for anyway. The whole point of Ned's character is that he takes honour and inheritance very seriously, as was the case with Stannis and Jeoffrey. So why have him back-track on that? Also Preston put Danny in place of Jon...why? There is no mystery surrounding Danny's parentage. Nothing to be solved. It would be creating plot twists where non were needed. It's like he expects G.R.R Martin to have this giant twist but forgets that R + L = J IS the twist. Its become so popular in fandom that it no longer feels that way, hence why Preston came up with this convoluted video.
This is still my favorite video series you have ever done, but fuck me am I glad you have improved your audio.
You are wrong, Preston. Ned HAD actually thought about Rhaegar in years. In fact he thought about Rhaegar in chapter Eddard VIII, right after he leaves the council. I have no idea why GRRM wrote that Ned found himself thinking about Rhaegar for the first time in years, when it's clearly not true.
I like your theories, but yes, you are wrong about (figuratively) half of what you theorize.
So I went back and watched the scene where Sansa is in the crypts. I paused when Sansa stands next to the statue and looked at Lyanna. She looks just like Dany! I put a picture of Lyanna's statue and Dany next to each other and the resemble is uncanny. And Dany scenes always seem to be connected with Ned/Jon scenes. Is it foreshadowing or just coincidence? I can't decide, what do you think?
The problem I have with B+A=J/R+L=D is: 1. There is no reason for Ned to keep Jon's parentage a secret (especially from Catelyn). If Jon is the bastard of a Stark/Dayne, he would be no threat to Robert so why keep it a secret? 2. Jon's personality is WAY closer to Rhaegar than hot headed Brandon. 3. Dany's vision in the House of the Undying, showing a blue rose (Lyanna) in a wall of ice (The Wall) Dany obvs had a vision of Lyanna's son @ The wall. And 4. Literally nothing about Dany is associated with anything Stark related. If Dany is this "Half Stark" she shows nothing of this. ALSO Brandon died before Jon could of been conceived while Lyanna died before Dany would of been born.
Benjen and Jon conversation:
Jon Snow and his uncle Benjen about Wall
“I’m ready.”
“You don’t understand what you’d be giving up. We have no families. None of us will other father sons.
“I don’t care about that!”
“You might, if you knew what it meant!”
Seems much more likely Jon is royal lineage vs. just Brandon and Ashara.
Why would Benjen know about the Tower?
To be fair it’s unlikely that Rhaegar and Lyanna actually got their marriage annulled and if they did I doubt Lyanna would of remembered to tell Ned in her dying breaths. So Ned could very well believe/ just know that Jon is literally actually just a Bastard of Lyanna and Rhaegar.
For the bit about Ned shouting at Cat with all the rumours about him and Ashara Dayne it'd be normal for him to suspect she was going to bring up Jon and wanted to save himself the hassle
I think R+L=J is pretty (maybe too) obvious. I don't buy all this "Prince that was promissed" BS though. Rheagar probably intended to breed him but there is no way GRRM will leave us with Jon and Danny happily married on the Iron Throne.
But yeah, Ashara is definately missing in there.
It s nowhere near obvious and no Daenerys and Jon will never end happily married since they are RELATED and Jon thinks incest is a sin.I never knew about this theory even after i read A DANCE WITH DRAGONS
BTW There is an Ashare theory,that s definetely more simple than this
Howland Reed + Ashara Dayne = Meera and Jojen
This is the quick and dirty version of the theory. To read the whole thing, which is about 6,000 words, please click on the spoiler tags below.
My theory is that Ashara Dayne is still alive, living in the Neck, and married to Howland Reed. I believe they met at Harrenhal, fell in love, and married. Meera was conceived almost immediately, and it was a pregnant Ashara who went back to Starfall or King’s Landing-perhaps forcibly sent there by her parents. After the Tower of Joy, Howland picked up Ashara from Starfall, along with their daughter, and went North. The story was put about that Ashara died, and she assumed the name Jyana Reed.
Once at Greywater Watch, the couple had Jojen as well, and have been living there ever since.
In sum, H+A=M & J
The evidence in brief is:
The Tourney at Harrenhal: Howland Reed is watching Ashara and actually makes a list of all the people that she dances with. This has no bearing on the rest of the KotLT story, and yet it is mentioned. Why? Meera, who is telling the story, would have no reason to mention this to Bran and yet she does. Why?
We are told by Barristan that Ashara had a daughter. If that daughter was not stillborn, and lived, Meera is one of the only candidates, due to being the right age and gender. She is about nine or ten months older than Jon, and therefore one of the only known characters born in the beginning of Robert's Rebellion.
Jojen got grey water fever, which is odd because while it affects the Ironborn, you would think that the crannogmen would be immune to it. His eyes are moss-green, which is a color given to mark seers. But what color were they before the fever?
Barristan Selmy, who loved Ashara, remarks that: "She wants fire, and Dorne sent her mud. You could make a poultice out of mud to cool a fever. You could plant seeds in mud and grow a crop to feed your children. Mud would nourish you, where fire would only consume you, but fools and children and young girls would choose fire every time." Considering how many things he has been wrong about so far, is he wrong about this too? Did Ashara choose an actual "mudman"?
We are told that Ned would have died at the TOJ but for Howland Reed. What does this mean? Was it crannog magic, or was Howland Arthur's brother-in-law?
Why was Ned so quick to defend Ashara if R+L=J? It would make sense if she was the wife of his bannerman.
There is specific language over and over again with regards to the Reeds and Bran. Towers, Stars, Falling, and Summer come up constantly. Hints for Starfall, Palestone Tower, and the Summer Sea, perhaps?
The Dornish are looked down on by the other kingsdoms, as are the crannogmen. The crannogmen are reviled for their guerrilla tactics, which are considered cowardly, something the Dornish also have in common with them. Howland has spent his life among the water, just as Ashara spent hers on the edges of the Summer Sea. House Reed also has an ongoing feud with House Frey, just as House Dayne has an ongoing feud with House Oakheart. Common ground for a romance?
This is really the theory in brief, and the rest of it can be seen in the spoiler tags with evidence and analysis.
Spoiler
I kid you not, I thought up this theory after seeing it as a joke on the forums. I can’t find the thread now, but it was about guessing the identity of Ashara’s baby daddy, and all the usual suspects were there. Brandon, Ned, Robert…pretty much every man at Harrenhal. Then someone tossed out a name as a joke, and the conversation pretty much skipped over it. But I think it bears further attention. The name?
Howland Reed.
If you are still reading this, let me explain.
The Theory
My theory is that Ashara Dayne is still alive, living in the Neck, and married to Howland Reed.
I believe they met at Harrenhal, fell in love, and married. Meera was conceived almost immediately, and it was a pregnant Ashara who went back to Starfall or King’s Landing-perhaps forcibly sent there by her parents.
After the Tower of Joy, where Arthur Dayne did not die, Howland picked up Ashara from Starfall, along with their daughter, and went North with Arthur Dayne. The story was put about that Ashara died, and she assumed the name Jyana Reed.
Once at Greywater Watch, the couple had Jojen as well, and have been living there ever since.
In sum, H+A=M & J
Now, to the evidence…
Harrenhal and the Spectator’s Gaze
There is a lot of strangely compelling evidence, that when put together, seems to at least afford the possibility that I am heading in the right direction. So let’s start from the beginning. Consensus seems to state that Ashara Dayne’s baby daddy must have been at Harrenhal. And while she might have talked to him off screen, someone we never saw, it is more likely that GRRM placed him in the scene right under our noses. To quote from Meera’s Tale:
Quote
The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf…but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench. (ASOS 340)
There are many interesting things going on in this passage. For one, this is used by both Brandon and Ned-as-the-dad proponents to prove their point. But it is interesting if you look at the opening of the sentence, rather than the end of it. Up to that point, the passage had just been listing the number of things going on in the hall:
Quote
Under Harren’s roof he ate and drank with the wolves, and many of their sworn swords besides, barrowdown men and moose and bears and mermen. The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle, but when her pup brother teased her for crying she poured wine over his head. A black brother spoke, asking the knights to join the Night's Watch. The storm lord drank down the knight of skulls and kisses in a wine-cup war. The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf . . . but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench.
Ashara danced with a white sword, which could be any member of the Kingsguard, most likely her brother or Ser Barristan. Next a red snake, which is most likely Oberyn Martell. Then came Jon Connington, and then Ned Stark. She also spoke to Brandon, who was the one to ask if Ned could dance with her. However, it is worth noting that the author intentionally makes Ashara Dayne’s first mention in Meera’s tale within the context of being seen by another.
Howland Reed was watching her, so much so that he noted all the men she danced with. This is not a simple casual viewing of the hall. If R+L=J, which Howland Reed would be the one person who would certainly know it, why on earth would he watch Ashara so closely? It is one thing to watch a woman and admire her beauty, but it is quite another to note all her dance partners.
And what man remembers the dance partners of a woman with no connection to him more than a decade later, when telling the story to his daughter? Isn’t it much more likely that Ashara was the one who told Meera that part of the story?
Also, why would Meera even mention Ashara Dayne to Bran? She can’t think that Ashara has any connection to House Stark, because I very much doubt that Howland Reed has been lying to his children all these years. If he wanted to keep R+L=J a secret, why even mention it at all? Simply never mention Jon’s mother, and that’s an end to it. However, if Ashara is Meera and Jojen’s mother, it would be quite important to the story from Meera’s perspective.
Meera mentions Ashara more than once too. She says, when taking about maidens fairer than the current Queen of Love and Beauty: “One was the wife of the dragon prince, who’d brought a dozen lady companions to attend her. The knights all begged them for favors to tie about their lances.” Remember that Ashara was one of Elia’s companions at this time. Meera might have even been about to say more about her, but Bran doesn’t want it to be a love story: “‘This isn’t going to be one of those love stories, is it?’ Bran asked suspiciously” (ASOS 339). He also at one point, cuts off the narrative and urges Meera to get to the jousting. Who knows what she might have added to the story without those caveats?
Swords and Dead Knights
Moving forward chronologically, we get this little tidbit from Ned about the battle at the Tower of Joy:
Quote
“The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed.” Father had gotten sad then, and he would say no more. Bran wished he had asked him what he meant. (ACOK 332)
The common interpretation of this passage is that Howland Reed used some crannog magic to subdue Arthur so Ned could kill him, but it is never explicitly stated in the text. We are told that “only two lived to ride away” (AGOT 427) but also that “They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his” (AGOT 44). Who is the “they”? Did Arthur Dayne “die” that day, and the sword returned to Starfall was actually Dayne himself? There is already imagery of the Kingsguard being referred to as swords, not to mention Arthur’s title was Sword of the Morning. We are told in Catelyn II that:
Quote
…a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they had heard from the lips of her husband’s soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of Morning, deadliest of all the seven knights of Aerys’s Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur’s sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. (AGOT 65)
Already, we know there are many problems with this tale. First of all, he didn’t defeat Dayne in single combat, by his own admission. Second of all, the men who “witnessed” it weren’t actually there, making them unreliable narrators at best, because Ned took six men with him, and only he and Howland made it out alive. Thirdly, Ned seems keen to protect Ashara for some reason, even though he would have no reason to if R+L=J. But when Ned gets angry to the point of making his wife fear him, he asks for who told her. Catelyn then says this: “She told him; and from that day on, the whispering had stopped, and Ashara Dayne’s name was never heard in Winterfell again.” Seriously, this only makes sense if Ashara was Jon’s mother, or if there was another reason Ned wanted to protect her good name…like if she was married to one of his bannermen, and he wanted to prevent tales of her from being spread through the North.
Ashara Dayne’s mystery really is a house of cards. We know from one of GRRM’s SSMs that her body was never found. If she is alive, as many people think, this being discovered would be very bad for Ned. It stands to reason that as one of the last people to see her alive, Ned was asked about Ashara over the years. If he knows she is alive, he would have had to lie. “He had lived his lies for fourteen years, yet they still haunted him at night” (AGOT 115). Lies, plural, not singular. He has been lying about more than just Lyanna and Jon. If Arthur Dayne and his sister are still alive, this would make a great deal more sense. But if it is discovered that she is alive, Ned’s word falls into question, and this could lead to the discovery of Jon’s identity. Also worth mentioning is that Ned has absolutely no reaction to Ashara’s supposed death when it is mentioned by Cersei.
And finally, more than once Meera and Jojen stress that there are no knights in the Neck, almost as if they want to make sure no rumors get started: “My father taught me. We have no knights at Greywater. No master-at-arms, and no maester” (ACOK 435). And yet, for all that, both of them are remarkably well educated. Odd, right? Perhaps the answer comes in A Storm of Swords when the Reeds repeat that there are no knights in the Neck:
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“There are no knights in the Neck,” said Jojen.
“Above the water,” his sister corrected. “The bogs are full of dead ones, though.” (ASOS 337).
If Arthur Dayne is alive, and living at Greywater Watch, he is literally a “dead” knight, living in a bog.
There ideas of "dead" seem to be flexible too:
Quote
Sam was staring at him. "You're Jon Snow's brother. The one who fell..."
"No," said Jojen "That boy is dead." (ASOS 771).
I guess if I had grown up with a mother, and possibly uncle, who were "dead" to the rest of the seven kingdoms, "dead" would be a pretty broad term.
Justice for Starfall?
Still moving forward chronologically, we know that Ned and Howland went to Starfall after the Tower of Joy. Strange, isn’t it that a man, who supposedly just killed their favored son, got out of there alive? Or that he even went in the first place? Seriously, what was to stop Ned from camping half a day away in some little town to get a wetnurse, while he sent a messenger, like a lord from the North, with the sword to Starfall? That would be as honorable as doing it himself, and certainly wouldn’t offend the family. In some cases, it might seem rude to go to the house of the man you just killed, even if it was in honorable combat.
It makes no sense that he would go himself, unless, of course, he had nothing to fear from them.
Consider that Ned Dayne is very interested in Ned Stark, and wanted to meet him at the Tourney of the Hand. Obviously, he didn’t grow up on tales of Ned as a monster. Allyria spoke to Edric of Ned Stark as star-crossed lovers with her sister, so even she doesn’t seem to resent him. It is very unlikely that they knew the truth about what happened, or even that Ashara is alive. What is more likely is that Edric’s father, who was Ashara’s older brother, new the truth of everything and raised his son and sister accordingly.
After Starfall, what happened there is anyone’s guess, but we know that Ned left with Wylla accompanying him and Jon as well. Weird, isn’t it, that the Daynes, whose son Ned had just killed, sent him off with a trusted family servant? Someone they later allowed to nurse their heir? And Wylla was able to come back after she finished nursing Jon to nurse Edric, so obviously the Daynes don’t harbor any ill will towards her for leaving with Ned Stark.
Around this time, the fiction of Ashara’s suicide begins. Edric Dayne says that Ashara threw herself off the Palestone tower because her heart was broken. But again, this is only hearsay that he heard from his Aunt Allyria who, if she was too young to marry Lord Beric for so many years, would have only been a child or younger when Ashara and Arthur “died.”
Ser Barristan, who harbored an unrequited love for Ashara says this:
Quote
But Ashara’s daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark? (ADWD 879)
The wording there is interesting as well, “looked to me.” (Now, Barristan is an unreliable narrator for reasons I will go into later, but his passages are important, if only because they show what tales he heard that were circulated through the kingdoms, or told to him by someone he thought would know the truth.) Barristan seems to imply that it was the so-called dishonoring that led to Ashara “looking” to a Stark. Which Stark, we don’t know. This often gets misquoted as “turned to Stark”, implying a relationship where there might have been none. However, if Ashara married and became pregnant by one of his bannermen, there is a very large possibility that Ned or Rickard (or Brandon) would have had to step in and smooth the way.
Why? Because the Daynes are not at all just a common house. They are not one of the Big Eight, so they often get overlooked by readers, I think, but there is nothing just average about their house. For one, Gerold Dayne states: “My House goes back ten thousand years, unto the dawn of days” (AFFC 432). They have a cadet branch, the Daynes of High Hermitage, and possibly a second cadet branch if House Jordayne springs from them as well. Also, Ser Gerold Dayne is of the cadet branch, yet Arianne thinks: “He was highborn enough to make a worthy consort” (AFFC 425-426). This is not just any old noble house; that much is clear.
Imagine then that Lady Ashara married Howland Reed without permission, or simply bedded him and became pregnant. He might have been a highborn lord, possibly descended from Kings, but crannogman are looked down on by northmen, let alone the rest of the Seven Kingdoms. The help of House Stark might have very much been needed.
If Ned was able to convince Ashara’s brother, or parents if still living, of the worthiness of House Reed, of their descent from the Marsh Kings, their blood ties to House Stark, the fitness of Greywater Watch, that Howland didn’t dishonor Ashara and married her in good faith, as well as bringing their son back to them alive…yeah, that is probably worth naming the next heir after him for.
Edric, which is a combination of Eddard and Rickard. Interesting, to say the least.
Think of the Children
In a Clash of Kings, we are told that Meera is “almost sixteen” (432). This puts her about nine months older than Jon, who had just turned fifteen at the end of A Game of Thrones. If she was conceived at Harrenhal, or thereabouts, it fits very nicely in with the timeline. Not only would her parents have been in the same place, but also it helps to explain her existence.
Think of it another way. For her to be born to a crannogwoman, Howland would have had to go straight home and marry immediately. He could have had a betrothed waiting for him, but it probably would have taken him anywhere from two weeks to a month to get home from Harrenhal, and then there would have had to be preparations for a wedding, because remember, he had been on the Isle of Faces for an entire winter. He would have been gone from his home for years, so a wedding would have taken a little time to pull together. Unless, of course, Ashara and Howland followed Harwin’s school of thought: “There’s naught like a tourney to make the blood run hot” (ASOS 599).
Also, it is worth noting that House Reed seems to follow Dornish inheritance laws. When they are presented at Winterfell, they are presented as: “Lady Meera of House Reed…with her brother, Jojen, of Greywater Watch” (ACOC 328). Jojen is not introduced as the lord and heir, Meera is. This could be because Jojen has foreseen his own death, and Howland Reed took steps then to make Meera his heir, but it could also be that Ashara Dayne insisted that her daughter not be denied her birthright. In any case, Meera truly seems to be her father’s heir. Like him, she can “…run swiftly, and stand so still she seems to vanish…breathe mud and fly through trees” (ASOS 131). Her father is described in the exact same way, and was also a great hunter when he was younger.
Jojen, on the other hand, is, quite literally, a dreamer. According to the story, he got grey water fever when he was a little boy, and when he recovered, his eyes had turned green. This is interesting, for two reasons. One, when Theon meets with the Ironborn in A Dance With Dragons at Moat Cailin, they warn him not to drink the water because it makes you ill. Meera, we are told, can breathe mud like her father. Presumably, Jojen tried this as well, and got sick instead. You would think that after millennia of living in the Neck, all crannogmen would be immune to grey water fever. Unless, of course, he is only half crannog and he got the bum roll of the genetic lottery and is more like his mother. And two, what color were his eyes before he got sick? Meera, we are told has green eyes, but Jojen’s turned green. Presumably then, Jojen had the same color eyes as his mother…
There are also repeated images of summer, towers, falling, and stars associated with both the Reeds and Bran. Beginning with Summer, the obvious connections are Bran’s direwolf, and Old Nan and Jojen call him a “summer child” and Osha calls him “summer boy.” But there are less obvious ones as well. The first sentence of the first chapter of the book, Bran’s POV, ends in the word summer. Jojen, when petting Summer, is described as having “a touch as light as a summer breeze” (ACOK 333). And when Jojen is telling Bran to open is third eye, he says: “With three you would gaze south to the Summer Sea and north beyond the Wall” (ACOK 437). Remember that Starfall is set on the Summer Sea.
The idea of Bran, the Reeds, and Towers was not as obvious, but rather pointed in the re-read. Bran falls from the Broken Tower, and afterwards calls himself Bran the Broken. On their journey north, Bran names one of the towers they stay in Tumbledown Tower, and they stop at the Queenscrown tower as well. The Freys are enemies of the “mudmen” and their sigil is two towers and a bridge. (Interesting to note, but the bridge at Winterfell between the bell tower and the rookery collapsed after the burning). And one of the squires who attacked Howland Reed at Harrenhal was in service to a Frey, or a Frey himself. And one of the things that drew Howland to Harrenhal was “the towers reached ever higher as he neared shore” (ASOS 338). When they arrive at the Nightfort, Bran notes that it is full of broken towers. And it should be remembered that it was the Children’s Tower at Moat Cailin from where the Children of the Forest called down the Hammer of the Waters, creating the bog that Meera and Jojen live in. If Ashara Dayne was their mother, her having “jumped” from Palestone Tower would add just one more dimension to this.
The falling is obvious as well, but still worth mentioning. Bran was convinced he would never fall when climbing, so of course he did. “It seemed as though he had been falling for years” (AGOT 160). Afterwards, he has no memory of it: “Bran did not remember falling, yet they said he had, so he supposed it must be true” (ACOK 72). But it continues on, even after he has awoken. He dreams of falling over and over again. He also worries that Meera will fall when she is climbing up the wall. And there is one more connection with the Daynes and Starks, if for no other reason than both of them have castles with variations of fall in them, Starfall and Winterfell.
Last, but not least, the star imagery. This appears mostly in Summer’s dreams, who sees things that Bran cannot, and even remembers Jaime before Bran does. During the sack of Winterfell, Summer thinks: “Behind the cliffs tall fires were eating up the stars” (ACOK 957). And Bran says: “He loved to listen to the direwolves sing to the stars” (ACOK 70). During his coma, he thinks: “There was no sun, no stars” (AGOT 160). And stars literally guide them as they trek north: “The blue star in the dragon’s eye pointed the way north” (ASOS 331). And perhaps the greatest connection of Bran’s arc, the Reeds, and Starfall comes when Maester Luwin is warning Bran against believing in Jojen’s green dreams:
Quote
The years pass in their hundreds and their thousands, and what does any man see of life but a few summers, a few winters? We look at mountains and call them eternal, and so they seem…but in the course of time, mountains rise and fall, rivers change their courses, stars fall from the sky, and great cities sink beneath the sea. (ACOK 442)
It should also be noted that Meera and Jojen Reed set off from Greywater Watch (on horses, when they have no master of horse) right after the comet appears in the sky.
Attraction and Common Interests
But would Ashara have bedded or married Howland Reed in the first place? Without this answer being yes, the whole theory falls apart. To answer it, we simply need to take a look at if it was possible, which I think is yes.
Consider the following. From the moment she comes to court, Ashara Dayne is renowned for her beauty:
Quote
His choice would have been a young maiden not long at court, one of Elia’s companions … though compared to Ashara Dayne, the Dornish princess was a kitchen drab. Even after all these years, Ser Barristan could still recall Ashara’s smile, the sound of her laughter. He had only to close his eyes to see her, with her long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders and those haunting purple eyes. (ADWD 879)
This paints a very pretty picture, but it could not have been fun to be at court in those days. For one thing, the king was a mad shut in, who hadn’t left the Red Keep since Duskendale. She was also Lady in Waiting/companion to Elia, who was bedridden after Rhaenys was born for six months, and nearly died birthing Aegon. For a young girl, possibly anywhere from fifteen to nineteen (or Barristan wouldn’t have called her young), this couldn’t have been fun. And despite what I have seen suggested, she did not come to court with Elia, or Barristan wouldn’t have called her “not long at court.” Having her brother nearby wouldn’t have even been much comfort to her, because he would have been busy with his duties, and off fighting the Kingswood Brotherhood.
Over and over, I have seen it said that Ashara Dayne was a great friend to Elia, but there is no canonical evidence for this. For one thing, she would have been much younger than Elia, at least five years. For another, the most likely way she got her position at court was through her brother, who was Prince Rhaegar’s best friend. Seriously, Queens (or princesses) and their ladies don’t have to be friends, just ask Katherine of Aragon and Anne Boleyn. And even if they were friends, Elia was still sick for a lot of that time, which would have left Ashara pretty much to her own devices when not serving the princess. And being at court, as the sister of the famed Arthur Dayne, yet looked down upon for being Dornish, yet praised for her beauty, must have been exhausting.
So why wouldn’t she have been looking to have a little fun at Harrenhal? The Dornish do not hold love affairs with the same horror as the rest of the seven kingdoms. She could have easily gotten together with Howland and conceived Meera. The problem would come if and when she wanted to marry him, I think. Remember that Doran Martell doesn’t care when he hears that Arianne slept with the Bastard of Godsgrace, but he rejected Daemon Sand’s offer of marriage out of hand. Yes, it could have been because she was already betrothed, but Daemon Sand seems to feel otherwise. We simply do not know how the Daynes would have felt about it.
But would Ashara even have been attracted to Howland in the first place?
Possibly, if she was attracted to the typical Dornish look: “… Dornishmen were small and swarthy, with black hair and small black eyes.” (ASOS 595). The Daynes were described mostly like First Men, with Valyrian coloring, despite not having any Valyrian blood. But most of the other men Ashara saw in her day to day life would have been the “Salty Dornishmen,” who lived on the coasts.
Remember that Ashara was described by Catelyn as “tall and fair,” which is a First Men quality, so in all likelihood she would be taller than the men she met every day who had Rhoynish blood, save her family, so Howland Reed wouldn’t have been that much of a change. And regarding the Salty Dornishmen: “There were the salty Dornishmen who lived along the coasts…the salty Dornishmen were lithe and dark, with smooth olive skin and long black hair streaming in the wind” (ASOS 520). Furthermore, the Dornishmen Tyrion sees are described as wearing copper armor. Oberyn’s “shirt was armored with overlapping rows of copper disks.” Later, they are described as scales. Dornishmen are also famous for fighting with spears.
In Meera’s tale, Howland Reed was described thusly:
Quote
Once there was a curious lad who lived in the Neck. He was small like all crannogman, but brave and smart and strong as well. He grew up hunting and fishing and climbing trees, and learned all the magics of my people…he could breathe mud and run on leaves, and change earth to water and water to earth with no more than a whispered word. He could talk to trees and weave words and make castles appear and disappear…he donned a shirt sewn with bronze scales, like mine, took up a leather shield and a three pronged spear, like mine, and padded a little skin boat down the Green Fork. (ASOS 337-338)
Consider this in comparison to typical Dornishmen, and even more, compare it to Ashara’s experiences of life so far. We are told that Princess Elia was looked down upon for being Dornish, so it is no stretch of the imagination that at court, Ashara was as well. Howland Reed is likewise looked down upon for being a crannogman. The crannogmen are reviled for their guerrilla tactics, which are considered cowardly, something the Dornish also have in common with them. Howland has spent his life among the water, just as Ashara spent hers on the edges of the Summer Sea. House Reed also has an ongoing feud with House Frey, just as House Dayne has an ongoing feud with House Oakheart.
For them to meet, all it would have taken was an introduction, which I am sure Ned was happy to provide if he took Ashara over to meet his sister…who was sitting right next to Howland Reed.
The Great Lie
So why lie?
Why say Ashara was dead? Why keep it a secret that she was married to Howland Reed?
Jon.
In the end, it all comes back to Jon. As the true king of the Seven Kingdoms, at least in Arthur Dayne’s eyes, his safety would always be the number one priority. And despite being “dead” Arthur Dayne was the greatest knight that ever was…and he would never let Jon go north without him. My guess is that he went back to the Neck with his sister and her husband, and frequently made trips north to Winterfell to see Jon.
Now, this might not seem like a good place for him to be, but it is for a number of reasons. First of all, the Neck is the sight of Moat Cailin, and according to Ned Stark: “Two hundred determined archers can hold the Neck against an army” (AGOT 202). By living there, at least part of the time, Arthur would be able to meet any foes head on. It is also a sight which makes it easy for him to move back and forth. The crannogman could easily get him up to Moat Cailin, and from there he could go to White Harbor which is extremely close. Having a port right there would be very important for news, or even if he needed to get Jon on a boat quickly. It is also close enough to Winterfell that Arthur could move easily enough.
I wouldn’t even be surprised if Arthur had an identity that he was known to all the folk of Winterfell by, save Ned. The Hooded Man, anyone?
Again, this explains why Ashara Dayne had to “die.” Her living in the Neck would cause stories to circulate, and the last thing Arthur would want is for attention to be drawn northwards.
The next objection would be that Jon has taken the Black and is now no longer king of anything.
So why has the secret continued, and why aren’t Howland Reed and Arthur Dayne back in the story then? Why hasn’t Arthur gone to Dany like Barristan? Easy.
Greendreams.
Jojen has greendreams, and it isn’t a stretch of the imagination to think that he might have said something to his father and uncle about biding their time before he left for Winterfell. He might have also had dreams of Jon’s future as a monarch, making Arthur know his place is still in the North, not in Essos.
In any case, Howland Reed is very busy at the Neck anyway, fighting Freys and Ironborn. But consider that Maege Mormont and Galbart Glover went to Seaguard from where they were supposed to head to Greywater Watch…and have been curiously absent ever since. Something is going on in the Neck, and whatever it is, I doubt it’s unimportant to the story.
According to a SSM, Dawn is currently at Starfall. Arthur might have relinquished the sword when he “died.” Of course, it is also possible that Arthur in fact does have the sword, and we are only meant to think that it is at Starfall. Whatever the case, I think the sword is too important, and mentioned too many times, to have no connection to the end of the tale.
Pièce de résistance
The final, and maybe most important, piece of evidence comes from Ser Barristan the Bold himself. More than once, Barristan displays questionable judgment throughout the books. While he is essentially a morally “good” character, that doesn’t mean he is always right. For example, bending the knee to Robert rather than dying for his principles like Whent and Hightower did. When Barristan did this, he gave immediate legitimacy to Robert’s reign: “Yes, the man was old, but the name of Barristan the Bold still has meaning in the realm. He lent honor to any man he served” (AGOT 770).
Ser Barristan also tells Dany that the small folk are waiting for her in Westeros, something her brother Viserys said, and it is pretty much hopeful nonsense. And was it poor judgment which led him to serve Aerys too? Or simply honor’s sake? And Barristan simply stands by when Robert’s decree is ripped offering only a token protest, though he does hesitate when Cersei orders him to seize Ned. He backs off when Dany doesn’t want to hear that her father was a madman, and couches his words very carefully, not saying anything bad about her family. Questionable behavior, certainly, and no, it does not make him a monster. It is hard to know if this points to a weak mind or bad judgment, but it does show a pattern.
It also shows that everything he says should be taken with a grain of salt. His thoughts and quotes about Ashara are useful in only that they show the rumors going around her at the time, or even his own thoughts on the matter. Like the idea that she was “dishonored” at Harrenhal. Like the maids and soldiers that Catelyn heard about Ashara Dayne from, Barristan Selmy is an unreliable narrator at best. So when I see the following quote, I tend to think just the opposite:
Quote
She wants fire, and Dorne sent her mud. You could make a poultice out of mud to cool a fever. You could plant seeds in mud and grow a crop to feed your children. Mud would nourish you, where fire would only consume you, but fools and children and young girls would choose fire every time. (ADWD 785)
This quote is interesting on so many levels, not for the least in that Barristan takes himself to be knowledgeable about the desires of a young girl’s heart, when he is, by his own admission, celibate. But it also does two things in my opinion. It links the image of Dorne and mud, and it brings to mind the “mudmen.” And to add another parallel, Quentyn Martell, who Barristan calls “mud”, was also called “Frog” on his journey to Meereen. The crannogmen of the Neck are often called “frog eaters” for their dietary choices. It is interesting that Quentyn, who is Dornish, also unites the “mud” and “frog” aspect as well.
There would be great irony if Ashara, the so-called love of Barristan’s life, literally rejected every other man who was “fire”, only to choose “mud.”
Conclusion
So what does it all mean? Well, not much at the moment. On the surface, if Ashara + Howland = Meera and Jojen, it doesn’t really explain much but to add another layer of complexity to the tale. It would certainly help to explain the linkage between Ashara and Ned, and some of the discrepancies presented in the books. It would also explain why Starfall and Dawn and Ashara and Arthur keep getting mentioned in the books, over and over and over. In a sense, they have never really been “off screen”. With Meera and Jojen around since A Clash of Kings, and Arthur popping up in flashbacks, and Ashara getting mentioned by so many disparate people, along with Howland Reed too-it helps to link everything together.
One thing that gets said repeatedly is that Howland Reed is the only one who knows the truth about Jon. But this actually makes no sense when it comes to revealing his identity. Ultimately, it comes down to how GRRM will reveal it and what it will mean. Like if it is revealed and Jon doesn’t really care, and dies in the Last Battle, then no, it will never really matter that Howland Reed told him. But, as many people think, if Jon will ultimately take a throne in the end, like the Northern or Iron, it will matter a great deal who his parents were and it will need to come from a reliable source. Howland Reed might have been a great friend of Ned’s, but crannogmen are not well-respected. But if, on the other hand, Arthur Dayne is alive-one of the greatest knights ever who was beloved by the smallfolk-and he too gives his word about Jon…
Considering that Robb’s will is currently in the Neck, along with Maege Mormont, and Galbart Glover, and the crannogmen are in the perfect position to attack the Dreadfort men at Moat Cailin and then meet any army that might march up the Kingsroad, like from the Vale or Riverlands-the Lord of Greywater Watch will have an important part to play in the future story, even if he remains off screen.
Why couldn’t Howland Reed also have a great backstory as well, one that also took place off screen?
And why couldn’t Ashara Dayne not be the victim of Ned or Brandon that everyone seems to think she was, and instead be the master of her own destiny?
MrGt300 i took the tiem to read your whole theorie.
And i must say it wasn't a waste of tiem, you have some pretty good points.
But i still think ther has to be more to the conection of Starks and Daynes.
Since Eddrick is named after Ned ther must be something more the just speaking out for a bannerman.
Skyrimlord There must be something big going on between them ,Eddard is man of honour and Ned Dayne admires him.I wouldn t admire a man who killed my uncle and shamed my aunt,i believe this theory because we have BadAss Arthur Dayne alive and Ashara who by all means is alive.If R+L=J is true noone would believe the frog eater Howland Reed but everyone would believe The Sword of the Morning who by all accounts was Rhaegar s Best Friend.
MrGt300
i know what you mean. still kind of strange that the sword of the morning is chilling in the neck.Thought it would be awsome to see him, since he pretty much must know about everything, from the start until the end. What interessts me most by the theory is that he probably knows if R and L were married. Whiche would turn the world of ASOIF upside down. Since it would make jon king by right.
What i also conside intresting is the age of house dayne, whiche is suppost to be the oldest house(10.000-12.000 years) in westeros(at least the ones we know about). They must know one or 2 secrets or maybe even a prophesie. It woulden't even supprise me if they gave Reagar the idea to bed Lyanna. And breed the PTWP/AA
Also i simply hope the Theory is true, just to see Arthur Dayne and Ashara. The things they must know....so many answer to our questions.
Skyrimlord He could be chilling with his sister,nephew and niece.From what we know of Arthur he is something like Achilles,i doubt that a person who was beaten by 3 twelve year olds could kill Arthur.He could have said something like Wait and explain the situation to him.As much as i like Jon he is not a king since the Baratheons are the rightful dynasty by the right of conquest.Also by killing Jon GRRM manages to get him out of his vow,how the fuck is Westeros gonna beat the Others with Littlefinger as a Regent in the Eyrie,The Boltons in the North,the Freys in the Riverlands and Cersei as a queen.if Jon learns the truth he will use it to unite Westeros against the real threat,the Others and yes the Daynes know more than they let on.
Preston, do you have any Theory for the fact Robert wasn't at the Tournament of Harrenhal? I mean you said yourself in the Video anyone with a name for himself took part in it. Or did I simply miss a detail in the books where its stated?
Robert was there. He was getting drunk with Richard Lonmouth.
Ah, Ashara isn't missing.
Martin has, literally, been saying for almost 20 years now that the fans that say Ashara is missing, and couldn't be Jon's mother, are flat wrong.
Not sure why so many people just continue to completely ignore this point. Well, actually, I do know: fanboy theories must be true, regardless of anything!
Ashara isn't 'missing' as Martin has been saying for almost two decades.
This aged well
5:39 - Where did get this data? About Eddard and Howland meeting these three women early in the war? As far as I know Eddard only met Ashara twice - during the tourney at Harrenhal and then after the events of Tower of Joy. Jyana I don’t recall ever being mentioned (in the story itself, I mean).
I base meeting Ashara and Wylla on people believing them candidatess for the mother. Gossip usually has some sort of basis. "Ned stark has a bastard? Oh yeah, I remember him with ____, 9 months ago!" Meeting Jyanna is just based on Mirra's age.
Preston Jacobs
Well, from Edric Dayne we know that gossip about Eddard and Ashara is based on the events of tourney at Harrenhal (and not doing the math, apparently).
Wylla is not subject of gossip. It's a name that Eddard gives Robert. Her existance is confirmed by Edric, but he also makes it clear that Eddard couldn't have met her in the beginning of his campaign (with her living in Starfall).
Meera might as well have been conceived shortly before Howland rode south. Unless there is something that says she must be younger then Robb.
"Howland saved Ned from Arthur Dayne, probably by throwing a frog at him" AHAHAHAHAUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
I think almost everyone survived the situation at the Tower of Joy. Three legends of the Kingsguard would never be defeated by seven average swordsmen. We saw how many Barristan Selmy and Jaime Lannister took down before their respective captures on the Trident and in the Whispering Wood. That, with the fact everyone's bones but Lyanna's are not recovered when they easily could've been.
I absolutely love your videos! Please keep them coming! Your analysis is very astute and I intend to reread the series now after studying your videos. You get right to the heart of the weakness in R+L=J and what really happened. I'm just itching for TWOW now. Thank you - please keep them coming!
Its amaizing how out of a kick your intro pin points exactly where the Tv show has taken Jons story , except the unicorn... we still waiting for the children of the forest to pop one out
also Sean Bean confirmed Ned isnt Jon's father, and the directors of the show told the story several times, how GRRM asked them who is jon's mother, and their guess was right. So this "theory" is 99% confirmed, and it's the only possible explanation for Lyanna's death. Sure things are messy, and the Dayne family is involved in some way, but these are just circumstances Lyanna being Jon's mother is pretty much a fact at this point.
I always thought, that Eddard saying "Never ask me about John" and him forbidding everyone to talk about this in the castle is a way to drew attention away from Jon Snow as a potential targarian. Its the same story as with Batman: if there is no explanation of where did this child, that ned coincidentally brought from his trip to cornish tower of joy with Lyanna stark, come from, and suddenly Jon is a center of attention of Westeros. But create messy story, threat someone to be silent, and Streusand effect rolls in.
And it works, since Cercei and possibly other people at Kings Landing think that JS is son of Ashara Dayne.
TL;DR: the reason there is a lot of attention given to Ashara Dayne is because Eddard tried hard to keep John;s origins secret.
I now believe that Ned Stark was the Knight of the Laughing Tree. The reason I say that is 1) Ned says he Never participates in a joust because he doesn't want a man to see what he can do. Therefore he used to sigil of an Unknown Laughing Tree so no one would know it was him. 2) Lyana was a talented "horsewoman. " No One Ever said she was a jouster nor had any fighting ability. I doubt she would have been able to defeat 3 men no matter how badd-assed people want to believe she was. 3) Jojen Reed told Bran: "When I told my father about your father, for the first time in my life, I saw him cry." Now ask yourself, what would have instilled such love and devotion in Howland Reed for Edard Stark? I don't believe it was just his participation in the fight with Ned at the Tower of Joy, nor that Howland was just his sworn bannerman. I believe it was Ned who avenged Howland at the Tourney at Harrenhal.
San47di Thank you man. I've been saying this for months. Just because Lyanna is a good horse rider does not mean she can automatically joust. You need to be able to wield a long ass tourney lance, wear armour and make use of an oak and iron shield to protect your left side and take the impact of another jousters lance. Mind you this is against experienced knights. And the only training we actually hear Lyanna is receiving is where she fights with a young Benjen with sticks in the gods woods. While Ned was fostered in the Vale by Jon Arryn, a region with the purest Andal ancestry and whose fighters are automatically refered to as the Knights of the Vale and famed for their cavalry and lancers. So yeah Ned was the Knight of the Laughing Tree. People just tend to hype Lyanna up way too much.
From A Song of Ice and Fire wiki "The main problem with the theory would be that there is no indication of Eddard being notably short. It would be possible for him to have a late growth spurt following the Tourney, gaining the last few inches of his height, but no character seems to describe or hint at such a change. Also the image of a laughing weirwood seems at odds with Eddard's somber personality." The page has reasons for and against every variant of the theory but I'd like to note that the reasons for Dismissing Lyanna apply just as much if not more so to Ned people didn't just go "Ph Lyanna is great with horses so shes great at jousting" out of nowhere Jamie Lannister one of the best fighters in Westeros says that Jousting is more about horse riding than anything else
The founder of House Dayne is said to have raised Starfall on an island at the river's mouth, having tracked a falling star there. The Daynes ruled as Kings of the Torrentine from the days of the First Men until the defeat of King Vorian Dayne in Nymeria's War
Awesome.... R+L=J is almost foundational at this point. I love this. Way to challenge conventional theory.
i came here expecting a pretty straightforward video explaining R+L=J in extreme detail. What I got was yet another video throwing what I knew out the window. Im still not convinced but i cant wait for the next video.
SPOILER!!!
This dude fuckin ROCKS!!! Keep it up!!
fuck you, I see no spolier
Then you already know.
"Let's do this shit!"
Lol your channel is amazing!!! Obsessed with your videos.
When I want to hear proof that Jon's dad isn't Rhaegar, I'm torn between listening to Preston, or pro RLJ videos. The RLJ crowd ignores so many glaring holes. I just listened to Radio Westeros's video on it and Yolk Boy (whatever that name is supposed to mean) says repeatedly that Ned thinks of Rhaegar often, right after reading the part about how Ned hadn't thought about Rhaegar in years. When he's home in Winterfell, seeing Jon every day, he never thinks about Rhaegaer. How can that be ignored? I do believe Lyanna was the KotLT, but I'm not convinced in RLJ in the slightest. All in all I think people are blowing the topic way outta proportion. It doesn't matter who Jon's parents are, it matters what he as an individual chooses to do. Yes, I realise I've come to this party late.
So if you’re saying R isn’t Jon’s father because Ned doesn’t think about him when he sees him, then where is all the inner dialogue about Ashara? Surely he’d think of Jon’s mother since he has to think of Jon’s father when he sees him, as you imply.
@@VivanLaMNWA I think you're missing the obvious answer: George isn't going to give up his biggest who-dun-it in the whole series in the first book. He's left things intentionally vague to keep the secret until it's ripe
By this account, what happened to the baby Rhaella was expecting when she left King's Landing? Are we to assume that she was not pregnant at all? If she wasn't, wouldn't people be able to question Danny's paternity? Would they just take Visery's word for it?
Some food for thought..
The vast majority of people who have read the books are in agreement that Rhaegar and Lyanna are the true parents of Jon Snow, primarily due to the fact that it sticks out the most in the story, making the most sense. The R+L=D and B+A=J theory can only really be reached if you nitpick every little thing, reading through the book multiple times, and even then it really doesn't hold up, and although A Song of Ice and Fire is a massive storyline without countless characters and locations, Occam's Razor; The simplest explanation is usually the right one. With this in mind, take into consideration one of the biggest giveaways.. When showrunners D&D had dinner with George RR Martin in attempt to have talks over adapting ASOIAF into a TV, the dinner ended with George asking D&D one final question, a question which would determine whether or not a show would be adapted.. "Who do you think Jon Snow's real mother is?" Obviously they answered correctly, but do you honestly think they answered with "Ashara"? Of course not.
daxfury "Wylla"
frankly ashara and wylla are a bit more obvious than lyanna and rhaegar, I never would have put the pieces together for r+l=j because it didn't seem obvious to me. so if we did want to go for the complex answer r+l=j mAkes more sense with both Martin's logic and the hints in the book. (sorry if there are typos in typing on my phone.
When they answered, as George tells it, he only smirked and nodded. It's possible that he deliberately manipulated D&D into thinking that it was Lyanna, so that even a fair few book readers would basically accept R + L = J as canon, even without confirmation.
It may not be the most likely thing to have happened, but it would be fucking brilliant if it was, and you can't deny that it'd be a level of manipulation that wouldn't be out of place in ASoIaF.
Best anti- R + L = J theory I've seen. I'm not convinced yet, but it's very compelling, and I can't wait to see more.
As much as it pains me to swallow it, I have to say I fall in with the R+L=J. The only reason i do however is because Weiss and Benioff successfully gave their guess to Martin. So if those two are the dumbasses I think them to be, the most obvious guess is probably correct. Which is a shame because I really wanted Jon just to be Eddard's son.
Michelle Howard lol ! Why do you think that, those two are the dumbasses ?
Siran424 Probably because they are?
TadRaunch plus they only read the series once before they asked for an interview, AND a Dance with Dragons wasn't out yet so all hints have to come from books 1-4
Michelle Howard But Martin said that he wanted to make sure D&D had successfully analyzed the story. If R+L=J is so obvious, why would they need to thouroughly analyze Jon's parentage.
Michelle Howard GRRM could have messed with D&D - he only asked them who they thought was Jon's mum, no one said anything about his dad. His dad could still be someone else in the book *cough-robert-cough*
What if Ashara Dayne is a distraction to cover the fact that Jon is really a Targereyen. The rumor tricks people to believe that Jon is Ashara's son, but actually, he's Lyanna's son.
And why did Ashara commit suicide?
she didn't... (they never found the body)
Should have responded to this comment, answer the question why she killed herself. She did killed herself it was because she lost everyone she loved her brother arthur, her best friend Elia, and even her daughter just died at birth all that was enough to commit suicide.
@@Richard_Nickerson Anyone can commit suicide because of losing everyone you lost and even dishonor is good enough.
Okay, let me break down why your theory of Brandon and Ashara does not work:
B+A=J does not make ANY sense. The argument is that Ned wouldn't tell people that Jon is Brandon and Ashara's son, and hence the heir of Winterfell and Starfell, because "Catelyn and the Tullys would have been pretty pissed if they accidentally married Cat off to the non-heir. Cat already has anxiety about Jon's children taking claim to Winterfell when he is a supposedly a younger bastard. If he was actually an older trueborn. Oof. Ned was in a really tough position with the Tullys. He had already deflowered and impregnated Cat when he brought Jon back. What could he do, really?" {Preston Jacobs}
No, that's entirely against Ned's character! You're basically saying that to save his own skin and position, he disinherited his nephew who is actually the heir of Winterfell and Starfell? Are you kidding me? This is the most out of character, selfish, dishonourable thing Ned could possibly do! There is NO way that Ned would screw over a helpless child, the child of his dear dead brother and a woman he greatly admired - he would've owned up to it. Besides, Ned didn't have a great desire to be heir, so he wouldn't have been very conflicted about losing leadership of Winterfell, other than that Cat would've been marrying a non-heir, but he would've just accepted that as the price of duty and honour. Their marriage is already consummated and legitimate, so as much as the Tullys might be unhappy about her no longer being married to the Stark heir, there would be nothing they could do about it, particularly since Ned was the new king's right hand man, and hence had great favor with him.
In fact, at least that position of closeness to the king would've been some solace to the Tully's - I'm sure Robert would've awarded Ned a conquered castle, so that once he'd raised Jon at Winterfell until he was old enough to take over Ned and Cat would still have their own land. Not to mention why Ned would then lie for years to come to Cat about Jon being Brandon's son, letting her think he'd cheated and letting her hate the child, when he could've just told her that he is her nephew? It doesn't make sense. All of this is SO against Ned's character that it hurts! NED WOULD NEVER SCREW OVER A CHILD LIKE THAT, taking away his inheritance to simply maintain the Stark/Tully alliance and his own son as heir. If Jon were his brother's trueborn son, Ned would rather act by honour and make Jon the heir, rather than hide it to keep the status quo! The argument is that Ned was acting out of honour? Taking a helpless baby's inheritance and keeping it for yourself is honourable?! Ned got his head lopped off because he so strongly believed in the rightful heir by bloodline being given his just position! Do you think he would've died for Stannis's blood right, someone not of his own blood, but sacrificed the future of his own nephew, letting him be hated as a bastard when he should rightfully be ruling Winterfell?
I can't believe people are going along with this B+A=J theory! Even if other factors fit, Ned's actions towards Jon would be totally OPPOSITE to what we know Ned's character to be if indeed Jon was Brandon's child. Ned as a character would be ruined if this theory was true - he is nothing without duty and honour, and doing such a thing to his own nephew not to protect Jon, but to protect himself and his own marriage, would've been entirely lacking in both.
No, if B+A=J is true, Ned would've raised Jon as his own, but let it be public knowledge that he was Brandon's son and that he would be the heir. And if B+A=J is true, but Jon was a bastard, then Ned would've never lied, besmirching his own reputation and shaming Cat, as well as ruining her relationship with Jon, just so that people wouldn't know that Jon was his dead brother's bastard. With Robert as king he would have no fears of Jon being legitimized and usurping Rob, so really there is no angle from which it would make sense for John to be Brandon's child and for Ned to feel that he needed to protect that.
In the end, if nothing else convinces you that there is no way that B+A=J., then you must pay attention to this: Not only does the book not support Brandon and Ashara, but the infamous and widely told story of Dan and Dave being asked by George in that restaurant when they first met who Jon's parents were, and them getting the answer right, [after one of them had only read two of the books, no less, and the other had only read four since ADWD wasn't out], means there is NO WAY that Jon's parentage is anything but R+L=J..They would NEVER have guessed Brandon and Ashara having only just read the books for the very first time, and speed read them at that!
This whole theory is not just implausible, it's downright IMPOSSIBLE.
You forget Ned would never want to soil his DEAD brother's name; Ned would rather take the blame than give it, that is how honor bound he is.
+Ejiro Akamune But isn't it already widely known that Brandon was quite the lady killer? Wouldn't people EXPECT him to have fathered bastards, since he laid with so many women?
Diiffer, people would expect it, yes, but Ned would not just be dishonoring his brother, but also Ashra Dayne and their house. In the north Jon would be a bastard, but in the south he would be the air of house Dayne. It's super complicated, that is why he is doing house Dayne a favor. Ned is saving House Dayne's reputation. They would be looked at as a bastard house if Jon was to become heir
+Ejiro Akamune Since when did bastards have right to inheritance in the south? If so, Stannis would bend the knee to Edric Storm, rather than trying to sacrifice him.
And since Ned is one to conceal people's parentage, wouldn't he just keep it secret that Ashara Dayne is the mother of Brandon's bastard?
In Dorne Jon is not a bastard, House Dayne is a Dornish house. Don't you know the map of westeros Diiffer
Man I'm happy to be home from a rough day! Time to smoke some weed and binge watch some of my man The Sweetest of Robins Breaker of Theories and Mother to sick ass RUclips videos Preston Jacobs!
Cat heard rumors that Jon's mother was Ashara Dayne, thats why when Cat asked about Ashara, Ned responded with don't ask me about Jon!
He also probably felt alot of guilt after he killed Arthur Dayne because in the end Arthur was trying to protect Jon because he is the prince,thats why he gave the sword back to Ashara and thats why he didn't want anyone to talk about her in Winterfell !
but thats just my theory.
Ibrahim IBz I'm hoping that H + A = M & J is true.
That is, Ashara married Howland Reed and assumed the name Giana, and Arthur is with her at Gerywater Watch.
+NamesForDogs But then Jon should look like either a Dayne or a Reed, but he looks exactly like a Stark in the book. So that theory's not right, though its possible that Howland did have children with Ashara.
Yat Nami Sorry, J in this case is Jojen.
NamesForDogs Oh, well then yeah, that is a theory I do like a lot.
Nnnghh..need the second part. I love your vids, you have a sharp mind and very good points!
oh god, oh god I've waited so long for this. I posted a theory about the significance of the crypts and Ned breaking tradition on the forums and got blasted for it (I actually think it cursed House Stark). It's so obvious that Ned is feeling guilty about it when he is talking to Robert, I'm sure you'll touch on it. Love your vids man! Can't wait
asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/108533-started-re-read-noticed-something/
you're welcome, why did you want it if you don't mind me asking?
When Bran has the dream that tells him his father is dead, he visits the crypts and Ned is muttering something about Jon (again with the obvious guilt). There is a clear connection between the crypts and Jon, and in Ned's thinking about the crypts. Also, Jon often has dreams where he feels obliged to enter the crypts for reasons he does not understand. There's obviously something odd going on with the crypts, but it is obviously about Jon.
kevinGT835 He dreamt he was back in Winterfell, limping past the stone kings on their thrones. Their
grey granite eyes turned to follow him as he passed, and their grey granite fingers tightened on
the hilts of the rusted swords upon their laps. You are no Stark, he could hear them mutter, in
heavy granite voices. There is no place for you here. Go away. He walked deeper into the
darkness. “Father?” he called. “Bran? Rickon?” No one answered. A chill wind was blowing on
his neck. “Uncle?” he called. “Uncle Benjen? Father? Please, Father, help me.” Up above he
heard drums. They are feasting in the Great Hall, but I am not welcome there. I am no Stark, and
this is not my place. His crutch slipped and he fell to his knees. The crypts were growing darker.
A light has gone out somewhere. “Ygritte?” he whispered. “Forgive me. Please.” But it was only
a direwolf, grey and ghastly, spotted with blood, his golden eyes shining sadly through the dark...
Maybe they are know who Jon s father is and they are complaining about his presence there since he is not a Stark.
kevinGT835 yeah what MrGt300 said with his quote. When Ned is in the crypts with Robert he is nervous not because of his sister but because of the old kings and he feels them looking at him and he notices some of the older statues have their swords crumbling away which means their spirits are no longer held back.
Man, guess it wasn’t so complicated after all then.... looks like Jon did all those things- except the unicorn part. Love it. R + L = DEEZ NUTZ
And Wylla wouldn't have to have a baby there herself. To be a wet nurse a woman needs to be constantly supplying babies with milk to keep their milk supply coming, if it stops for time (the time depending on each individual woman) the milk supply will dry up. So either Wylla would have had to have had a baby recently and was still breastfeeding, or Wylla just is a wet nurse by trade.
Michelle Howard Apparently she had big tits. From this I would assume she is actually a wet nurse. She is also a mystery too, not many people give her a thought.
Don't go expecting attention to detail in a PJ video.
Jon fighting against a big crowd with the bat and the bull next to him at Castle Black is too neat of a coincidence to overlook. I think he is somehow tied to Arthur Dayne. That may not mean that Jon is his nephew but I don't know how GRRM will relate to this going forward. We are bound to see another Sword of the Morning within the next two books.
Your last quote is taken completely out of context. Catelyn asks that question because it's a rumor surrounding Jon's parentage. She's talking about Jon in the previous and following paragraphs, so you can assume that the question was in reference to Jon, not Ashara specifically.
Not so. She asks the truth of "it" as in the rumors. The rumors contain Ashara and Ned specifically asks Cat where she heard Ashara's name from and then the name Ashara is never spoken again at Winterfell. Ashara is specifically talked about.
"That cut deep. Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband's soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face."
Preston Jacobs Another SICK theory bud! When will you upload Part 2 bro ?!?!?
Preston Jacobs Ashara is specifically talked about because that's the rumor surrounding Jon's parentage and that's who Catelyn brings up as Jon's possible mother. You make it sound like the question had nothing to do with Jon, even though the text surrounding that paragraph makes it painfully obvious.
It's not "painfully obvious." It's actually very ambiguous. Catelyn thinks about Jon's mother. The rumors are about Arthur and Ashara. Cat asks the truth of "it." We aren't completely sure what "it" contains, but "it" absolutely contains Ashara. If Ashara had nothing to do with John (as R+L=J implies), then Ned could have talked about the Ashara part. Instead, Ashara is completely off limits. Ashara is fundamentally linked to Jon.
Preston Jacobs Are you trolling? The paragraph is about rumors of Ned and Ashara after Ned had killed Arthur. Catelyn asks about those rumors because she wants to know who Jon Snow's mother is.
Saying that Catelyn brings up Ashara as a complete aside to her thoughts about Jon Snow's mother is either really sloppy reading or completely disingenuous.
Some notes:
Brandon S rides to KL without his father and gets imprisioned. Lather, Rickard S arrives and demands trial by combat.
Jon Arryn only declares war AFTER brandon and Rick are dead. That means Ned should really go north by the quicker way from the Valle and call his bannerman. It does take him some time, for he almost arrives at the battle of the bells too late.
I think you're overanalyzing a lot of things. While I agree that the series could end very differently from how everyone else wants it to end (being that Daenerys and Jon get together and rule the Seven Kingdoms), I tend to believe that it will end with everything in shambles and that there is no longer an Iron Throne or Seven Kingdoms to rule. But that's another subject for later. I still believe in R+L=J and think it does make sense in the ways it needs to be. It answers why the identity of Jon Snow's mother was kept secret and also why Ned never told Catelyn. If it turned out that Ashara Dayne and Brandon Stark were his parents (as an example), then any answer to any of these two questions feel really forced, not to mention it makes the whole mystery seem pointless. Also, everyone already thinks that Ashara Dayne is Jon's mother in the books, so that should already tell us that she isn't his mother. Why would you suddenly reveal the twist right to the reader on the very first book? That's something that Shyamalan would do, and George R.R. Martin is way too smart for that. Even though the tv series has confirmed R+L=J, I do believe that the books will confirm it as well.
A Song of Ice and Fire -- The only story I've seen yet that you can comfortably cruise the surface waters of the story and be well and truly entertained. But! It has the greatest depths; one can dive as deeply as they want and STILL not see every nugget GRRM placed in the water column. This is the Marianas Trench of storylines.
None better, in my opinion. And THAT is why it will be such an egregious literary crime if it goes unfinished. . . which I fully expect =-[
What if rheagar married to lyanna stark of winterfell and never wed elia?
1, the dorne wouldn't be involved in anything because elia never wed rheagar.
2, there would be no robert rebellion, no downfall of the dynasty.
3, Dany's dragons eggs would never hatched.
4, Brandon and Rickard would still be alive, rickard southern ambition would still be active and his already got allied with vale, riverland.
5, Ned would have joined a sellsword company in essos.
Edit: westeros would be a a boring place and no interesting storyline.
Lyanna will still die in childbirth.
@@dingo1547 Then Rhaegar would remarry to another big time house Hightower or Tyrells, any noble woman but never a Lannister because if his mad father and mother. Stark wouldn't have a promising relationship with the Targaryens like Ice and Fire thise two elements don't get along well. Fire wants warm or more fire not ice, ice needs cold to survive.
Congrats!!! you are doing a great job, keep on, your videos are very vey entertaining
There is no doubt in my mind that Jon is Ned and Ashara's son. There is way too many lines of evidence converging for this and GRRM dropped so many hints. As the Order of the Greenhand have explained on their channel, he is then also Ned's first born son and true King in the North. BTW, Wylla is obviously not a separate person, just a name Ned made up on the spot to refer to Ashara. "The Australian Aboriginal meaning of Wylla is: Woman, Wife." Always look at the names closely, GRRM has spoken before about the care he puts into naming his characters. I'm enjoying your videos man, great job. These books are beyond description in terms of their sheer scope and all the different hidden meanings everywhere, I love it.
That frog throwing joke was so funny I cried a little bit.