8:05 "...let's say my main character is really worried that people will see him as a monster. I don't need to repeat it every other chapter." Shots fired at HWFWM 🤣
This is a hot take, but I don't think that the Wandering Inn is actually LitRPG. It has a LitRPG style setting, but its a drama. You could drop all the LitRPG elements out of it, and it wouldn't make much difference.
@@SethRingWrites Hmm... I do notice that The Wandering Inn doesn't have much leveling up, but I kinda like that. I am also wondering how many words need to be in a LitRPG book?
Yes! The numbers must go up, and they must do so with some regularity. I hate it when the hero is mediocre and just gets dragged along until the Last Battle, when suddenly his love or friendship or willpower makes his power increase tenfold and save the day. No. If you just take Sunday walks, you won't be able to run from Marathon to Athens the day you need to. Victories may be unlikely, but not impossible. They may depend on serendipity, but not on the writer's divine intervention. All hail the numbers!
I've never read a LitRPG novel, but it's an intriguing concept to me as my world building is heavily influenced by the RPGs I've played, especially my magic system. Do these novels include like character sheets where you literally watch the "numbers go up", or is this more of a guiding principle? Like, if my main character's arc includes training sequences and slowly increasing skills, is that LitRPG, or are character sheets and literal representations of the stats increasing requirements of the genre?
I can't help but feel like the 'numbers' themselves may not be strictly necessary, but I can't think of an example in writing. For a game example, imagine a story with a progression system like Minecraft. The jump from a wooden sword to a diamond sword is huge and grants a large increase to damage the player delivers, but the game doesn't outright say 'level up, DPS increased by 10' or whatever; all the numbers are behind the scenes. You could still have a story where the character is grinding and acquiring better gear that slowly makes them more and more powerful, but the numbers aren't being displayed to them, it's all hidden. Am I crazy in thinking this would work fine in this genre, or would what I'm describing be a different genre?
No, you're hitting on how a good 'Systemless' or 'Numberless' system works. In reality, the numbers are there and they are going up, but they are implicit vs explicit.
@@SethRingWrites Ah I see, often in writing it's hard to tell if genres and formulas are rigid or have some room for deviation; thank you for clarrifying!
How do you work in the 'numbers fall' as in when your player dies and looses experience? In a series can you end a book on a huge loss? or does it have to always end with the character having already gained all that experience points back?
Great question. Most stories use perma death, so it isn't ever an issue. For those with a respawn mechanic, you really have to be careful that you don't put your character into anything resembling a death spiral. Its super risky to end with a huge loss, if that loss is a loss of progression. That kills your momentum hard and will have people asking why they even bothered with the first books if your MC was just going to lose everything.
There's this one Chinese (propaganda) webnovel about a zombie girl who just wanders around the country. It's revealed other characters have systems and mechanics, and her power level is lower than a normal human. It only goes down over time. Good read despite the propaganda. Also my favorite litrpg-esque story just has a scan spell that shows stats. There's no system, and it's outright stated that the numbers might vary from caster to caster. Since LitRPG is based on game design, I'd warn that it's not just "numbers go up" but "numbers go up, opening new possibilities."
I think one of the issues with the term "litrpg" is that it is not always descriptive (intuitively and definitvely) enough. In reality (most) litrpg ends up being quantified power fantasy, but that is *not* what the term "litrpg" alone would suggest which is merely a literary sub-sub genre (under gamlit and intersected by progression fantasy which given the nature of games, and more litrpg games, is unavoidable) that focus on rpg games, butrpg games arent necessarily stat based. Hell, not a *video*game but one of the most iconic rpgs is choose your own adventure, because you are roleplaying (although definitions gets flaky at that point as to what is roleplaying vs witnessing)o r at least that is how I understand it, even though the "misnomer" is constantly gainign specificity towards power fantasy isnt it? Sorry for the completely derailed side quest in my comment lmao, once again, good video
@@SethRingWrites Numbers become meaningless after a certain point. The hero either one-shots everybody or battles on an incomprehensible scale. Such stories are trash unless something else carries the story that has nothing to do with the numbers. Either way numbers become meaningless.
8:05 "...let's say my main character is really worried that people will see him as a monster. I don't need to repeat it every other chapter." Shots fired at HWFWM 🤣
😅
Great topic choice and makes sense.
@@richrecovery thanks
Great video! 👏 Question. Do these rules apply to The Wandering Inn?
This is a hot take, but I don't think that the Wandering Inn is actually LitRPG. It has a LitRPG style setting, but its a drama. You could drop all the LitRPG elements out of it, and it wouldn't make much difference.
@@SethRingWrites Hmm... I do notice that The Wandering Inn doesn't have much leveling up, but I kinda like that. I am also wondering how many words need to be in a LitRPG book?
Yes! The numbers must go up, and they must do so with some regularity. I hate it when the hero is mediocre and just gets dragged along until the Last Battle, when suddenly his love or friendship or willpower makes his power increase tenfold and save the day. No. If you just take Sunday walks, you won't be able to run from Marathon to Athens the day you need to. Victories may be unlikely, but not impossible. They may depend on serendipity, but not on the writer's divine intervention. All hail the numbers!
@@MagnusItland 💯
Exciting video. Thank you. Every time you said, “Why yes, yes I do.” I kept having a Nick Fox 🦊 flashback from Zootopia.
@@michaelcain9324 you're welcome
I've never read a LitRPG novel, but it's an intriguing concept to me as my world building is heavily influenced by the RPGs I've played, especially my magic system. Do these novels include like character sheets where you literally watch the "numbers go up", or is this more of a guiding principle? Like, if my main character's arc includes training sequences and slowly increasing skills, is that LitRPG, or are character sheets and literal representations of the stats increasing requirements of the genre?
Stat sheets, or literal representations of stats increasing is not a requirement, but is super common.
Great video! Thank you for sharing your insights. Could you do one on what to avoid in LitRPG?
Great suggestion!
I can't help but feel like the 'numbers' themselves may not be strictly necessary, but I can't think of an example in writing.
For a game example, imagine a story with a progression system like Minecraft. The jump from a wooden sword to a diamond sword is huge and grants a large increase to damage the player delivers, but the game doesn't outright say 'level up, DPS increased by 10' or whatever; all the numbers are behind the scenes. You could still have a story where the character is grinding and acquiring better gear that slowly makes them more and more powerful, but the numbers aren't being displayed to them, it's all hidden.
Am I crazy in thinking this would work fine in this genre, or would what I'm describing be a different genre?
No, you're hitting on how a good 'Systemless' or 'Numberless' system works. In reality, the numbers are there and they are going up, but they are implicit vs explicit.
@@SethRingWrites Ah I see, often in writing it's hard to tell if genres and formulas are rigid or have some room for deviation; thank you for clarrifying!
How do you work in the 'numbers fall' as in when your player dies and looses experience? In a series can you end a book on a huge loss? or does it have to always end with the character having already gained all that experience points back?
Great question. Most stories use perma death, so it isn't ever an issue. For those with a respawn mechanic, you really have to be careful that you don't put your character into anything resembling a death spiral.
Its super risky to end with a huge loss, if that loss is a loss of progression. That kills your momentum hard and will have people asking why they even bothered with the first books if your MC was just going to lose everything.
There's this one Chinese (propaganda) webnovel about a zombie girl who just wanders around the country. It's revealed other characters have systems and mechanics, and her power level is lower than a normal human. It only goes down over time. Good read despite the propaganda.
Also my favorite litrpg-esque story just has a scan spell that shows stats. There's no system, and it's outright stated that the numbers might vary from caster to caster.
Since LitRPG is based on game design, I'd warn that it's not just "numbers go up" but "numbers go up, opening new possibilities."
Its interesting how consistency between characters in a system isn't necessarily a requirement.
I think one of the issues with the term "litrpg" is that it is not always descriptive (intuitively and definitvely) enough. In reality (most) litrpg ends up being quantified power fantasy, but that is *not* what the term "litrpg" alone would suggest which is merely a literary sub-sub genre (under gamlit and intersected by progression fantasy which given the nature of games, and more litrpg games, is unavoidable) that focus on rpg games, butrpg games arent necessarily stat based. Hell, not a *video*game but one of the most iconic rpgs is choose your own adventure, because you are roleplaying (although definitions gets flaky at that point as to what is roleplaying vs witnessing)o r at least that is how I understand it, even though the "misnomer" is constantly gainign specificity towards power fantasy isnt it?
Sorry for the completely derailed side quest in my comment lmao, once again, good video
Haha, thanks.
Also rein in the f@ing power creep.
That's a tall order, since number go up. But its worth trying to do.
@@SethRingWrites Numbers become meaningless after a certain point. The hero either one-shots everybody or battles on an incomprehensible scale. Such stories are trash unless something else carries the story that has nothing to do with the numbers. Either way numbers become meaningless.