SMALL CORRECTION - poxwalkers have a 5+ Feel No Pain this edition, not 6+ like last time round. Maybe Accursed Cultist mutants could be one example (though they do have the torments to complicate matters)
On krieg the 5+ is very good. Because they just keep trucking and they come back. The other player always assumes the small bit of anti infantry fire is enough but it isn't.
Easiest way to explain the 50% vs 33% added durability for me is this.. how much of their original damage are they dealing with 1/3 of it negated? 66.6%. How much do you need to multiply that new damage by to kill it now? Well you would need 33.3 or half to add up to 100%... so 150% damage needed (or "50% more") = 50% more durability
@@AlbertoMartinez765 then there would be no reason for variations of FNP to exist, why would you have FNP against psychic if it covers everything anyway? doesn't make sense mate
Army wide FNP on Black Templars has been extremely useful in my experience. Even one spike during a shooting phase can save a ton of value. Plus, FNP's often force your opponent to commit more shooting into a unit as they have to account for the potential of FNPs hitting.
It's brutal on BTs, especially with the big Crusader blobs. I had to play into that twice as Necrons at my last RTT, and it totally hairballed my shooting. My Doomstalkers and C'tan could not punch through against the large numbers of infantry, and I just got picked to pieces by a million chainsword attacks. It was ROUGH
Could you do another Math-hammer video on the effects of Combi-weapons please? Such as how effective they are at 4+, at 3+ (like the buff Chaos infantry gets from an Exalted Champion), how useful "Anti-infantry x" is on them, and how it ties in with Devastating Wounds. Not all weapons have those variables available to them, and it's worth knowing how useful they are to run versus, say, a massive flurry of bolter fire.
(Im a templar player) the fnp is great. I love playing elite 3W space marines but it’s so depressing when they get wiped by mass damage 3 attacks. The fnp counteracts that. It also feels like you have to skew too much into melee if you take the other vows
@@mattkeepingazoriustactical Plan is to gift Tännhausers bones to a terminator character, altough i dont have much experience so i hope it will go well
@@dracometeors3010 Care to elaborate on how Orks are unreasonable currently? They're sitting at a pretty reasonable win rate around 53-54% depending on your data source.
Fnp is generally great all the time but I especially love them on 2 or 3 wound models, which people like to target with efficient d2 d3 shots. On a 3 wound model a 6+++ gives you a 50% chance to waste a cleared shot, doubling the effective hp of the model. Forcing that overkill is great.
No, just as six attempts on a six up don't add up to a 100% chance, three attempts don't add up to 50%. Actual formula would be: 1/6 +(1-1/6)×1/6 +(1-1/6-((1-1/6)×1/6)×1/6 =1/6+5/36+25/216 =0.42129629629 So the chance of at least one wound out of three being ignored is only 42%
... Until a Knight Castellan double-tapped it with a Volcano Lance. Two shots; both hit, both wound, fail both saves, fail CP reroll, and I don't bother rolling FNP for 30 damage on a 10 wound model...
I've been running a melee heavy Sisters list with Arco Flagellants, Penitent Engine, and Repentia Squads. They have a 4+,5+, and a 5+ respectively. Those FNPs definitely help them stay alive so I can use them. Especially when I have to move them across the battlefield to reach enemies beciase of my bad deployment.
That 6+ FNP really helped out my Legionaries the other day. They were subjected to a lot of tickling from storm bolters and splinter rifles, but the Master of Possession kept them on that objective all game, barring three. Bit of a surprise, as I hasn't intended to use them at all, but I had to find 500 points quickly to allow somebody else to play. Now if only I hasn't forgotten about Dark Obscuration...
FNP was at its most logical in 5ED, as it actually represented not feeling pain. The issue with it at the time was that it was too powerful against small arms, as certain codex books gave it out at a 4+++ level in a game where weapons basically did 1 damage. Back then, FNP had no effect against particularly powerful attacks- those which had the Instant Death rule, including where the S was twice the T of the target, and ones that were capable of bypassing 'any' armour save. As I used to describe it to people learning the rules at the time: "The model can ignore the pain of having its legs cut off as much as it wants- but it still can't move or charge any more!" Since 8ED, and the introduction of Mortal Wounds, this has been turned on its head. In an effort to combat the issue of re-rollable invulnerable saves, MWs were intended to bypass these to stop them being so much of an issue. FNP type rolls were then utilised to be a counter to MWs. The problems with this plan were multiple, but not least was the fact that after 7ED ended, there were no re-rollable invulnerable saves in the game. They'd all been removed, and the stated idea behind MWs given in the previews had been fully addressed by the time the 8ED rules were actually released. Instead of taking this into account, GW has doubled down on mortal wounds and the use of FNP type 'saves', What this has left the game with is a situation where lore and logic says many attacks which should be able to be stopped by an invulnerable save, but instead can't do this. Some of the descriptions of these saves literally state they are specific to stopping attacks that the game now represents with the mortal wound system. The upshot of this is that an attack which does 3MW from a powerful melee weapon that lore says is deadly if it makes contact, and thus has to be either dodged or blocked with a Storm Shield, instead has no roll the average model can be equipped with. You can't dodge it as an assassin, or utilise some form of energy shield designed to stop the attack to do so. Instead a 3W Terminator will simply die without its controlling player having any agency over the situation, whereas a third of the poxwalkers that should logically be turned to mush instead just keep going. Because in 8Ed onwards: "You can dodge out of the way of the attack and not be hit, but you'll still die- but if your legs & arms are removed, you can still shoot your guns on the run."
The first game of 10th I played, my 5 man infiltrators survived so much in that first turn. 2w infantry can survive a lot of damage 1 and 2 attacks by just rolling average
Personally I think FNP is too good. Armor counter's is high AP and mortals, invulnerable has mortals. FNP has nothing. You always get it. Because I am old so I remember when you could lose FNP saves to instant death weapons and if it doubled your enemies toughness with strength which had some balance to it. I just watched batrep of GSC shrugging of tau rail guns with 4+ FNP. Its silly and dumb. A simple change could be if weapon strength is double you reduce FNP by 1 or lose completely lose it. I remember using demolisher cannons against old plague marines to negate their T5 FNP+5. There should be counterplay like in the past.
5+ or 6+ fnps are strong but not overbearing as to where they need a counter. And usually, things with FNPs, especially good ones, dont have good characteristics for other saves. Now a 4+ FNP is frankly, quite silly. But those aren't common. GSC Aberrants are the only example I can think of of a unit wide 4+ fnp. And while Aberrants are pretty fucked levels of tanky between them having the -1 to wound them with s7+ weapons, and the 4+ fnp, they also are easily some of the most expensive things GSC can field, at 185 for 5. Thats nearly 200 points for 5 guys who arent very fast, have no guns, and also need an additional 75 point investment to get their ability online. Now, mind you, yes, a brick of 10 aberrants with an abominant is very hard to kill. But at that point, thats 445 points for 1 melee unit. They could have brought a fucking Baneblade variant for around the same point cost, and youre probably gonna have just as much of a hell of a time chewing through one of them. And Aberrants dont get cannons with absurd statblocks.
Also FNPs on squads can be countered with higher damage attacks. If a squad with 1 wound eats a 2 dmg attack they need to succeed on twice as many fnp saves for each model to not die.
I did a match where I had a unit of 10 heavy intercessors lead by the iron father sit on the central objective and they managed to kill a deathleaper and a maleceptor in melee and would on average maybe loose like 1 model a turn most of the time. I basically held the point up until turn 5
Interesting, explains why my Chaos Spawn with the +1 to Feel No Pain blessing of Khorne feel so durable! If only their healing would being back models like Reanimation Protocols...
I play world eaters and I laughed at getting a 6+ fnp. Then I used it and was amazed. It really did add a lot of durability by things just barley surviving something that should have killed them or just shrugging off damage completely on a good roll. Now I use it almost every turn
I mean, World Eaters can have a 6+ Feel No Pain for the entire game if they want. The more Jakhals oriented lists often do in order to take advantage of the fact the army rules increase the Jakhals ability to a 5+
With the way that most competitive armies are running infiltrators, I wish that Invocatus gave a +1 FNP instead of scout. The best it generally does is make it so two units don’t get boxed into the deployment zone (really just one gets truly freed, and the other is still having to get around the unit of wraiths/beastmasters/nuglings/stealth suits/scouts/whatever else that just negates him being effective
FNP is a huge deal with the C'tan, especially since they half wounds taken before rolling for each individual wound so a failed save on a 6D weapon is effectively only 2 wound on average (and more often then not can even drop to just 1 wound).
Wait, what? Isn't it that passing feel no pain negates one attack? From what you say it seems like if say poxwalker is hit by damage 5 weapon it has to pass 5 feel no pain saves in a row from single attack? Also do multiple wound models roll for each point of damage separately?
Definitely worth it on Imperial Knights. Won a few games simply because they shrugged off wounds that would have otherwise killed them, and they remained in the game for longer. Bringing it up to 5+++ makes them even better.
Laughs in Illuminor Szeras. 2+ 4++ 4+++ T8 W9 all for 160 points. Even if he isn’t buffing infantry, he’s awesome objective holder and even better if he can gain lone operative being near out of sight scarabs or something
Krieg are absolutely amazing with a 5++ fnp. The 4+ invul from a Primaris Psyker is good too but I think getting them in cover and giving them take cover is enough of a trolling save boost that they tend to survive pretty well but saves you 60 pts per brick. Also love Primaris Psykers with Scions getting out of Taurox Primes for crazy damage output so don’t always want them for defence However don’t underestimate how troll-ish Psykers are as a defence against Grey Knights and Thousand Sons. 4++ FNP against psychic attacks is crazy good
Since it states "any time this model would suffer a wound" if you are looking at 18 damage 2 shots, couldn't you just roll 36 dice and determine from there? Fast rolling dice determining damage can result in shenanigans anyway, so I don't think it would be unfair
@auspextactics Thanks for the video. I was wondering if you might want to do a video on GW Direct models? New players might not know what they are, how to get them, or how they affect the price of certain armies, like 'nids or Guard?
Nothing is quite as satisfying as having 20 crusaders that your opponent just can't do anything to in the shootimg phase thanks to a 5+ fnp that then have 5 chainsword attacks each in melee
On 3 wound squighog boys it HAS to be good. 5+ on a 3 wound model, on average 1 boy takes 2 damage 3 shots. Thats 100% wounds increase. Pretty annoying the most efficient fire power is actually the least.
How does FNP interact with Tank Shock? Let's say my opponent rams his Knight Rampager into my Void Dragon. With the claw, he can roll 22 dice, which should yield around 7 5+ rolls. The ability caps at 6MW, but is that before or after the FNP rolls? Do I need to roll 7 FNPs, or just 6?
I have to ask to get this right: You get a wound with damage 3. You pass the fnp and 1 dmg of 3 is ignored? I thought it's a ignore the wound so no damage regardless if 1, 2 or more
Nope, if you have 3 damage coming in and you fail 2 FNP's then you still take the two damage. Otherwise single wound models would have a 1/3 chance to just not die, making them very overpowered
You don't roll 1 FNP for a 3 damage attack. You roll 1 FNP for EACH point of damage. So with a FNP 5+ the expected is saving 1 out of 3 damage, so 2 damage goes through
Not very well written. It says if you get a wound, not one wound, not one or more damage excactly, you roll to get the wound ignored, so I thought, doesn't relay on the dmg. If you can't you get the dmg. A little sad, but good to know, that the rules don't mean what's written, it means, what everyone understands.
Every wound your model has is a singular hp you don't take 3 damage to 1hp that would be silly so if you have a 3hp model n you wound with a 3 damage weapon you can kill him as that 3 damage counts as 3 separate wounds
In world eaters it's okay, it hasn't once saved my jackals though, even when I get the 5+ feel no pain it means almost nothing. 6+ feels like maybe I might do something, but they rarely make much of a difference. It only does anything when my saving throws take care of most of the damage. 6+ feels like a cruel joke of we're giving you some extra toughness.
So, for my multi-wound models (my Black Templars) there is no fast way to roll against multi-damage attacks, correct? You have to roll each failed saves damage group of damage one at time?
Auspex... as a devout Death Guard player... I took a look at Blood Angels, Dark angels, and Space wolfs... All I'm saying is... Where is my feel no pains ): why do I have to bring a 160 Daemon Prince for a 6+ D:
And Blood Angels can give units fnp 5+ with the sang. priests, with or without jump pack. (And increase the melee weapon AP, as a side bonus) Also, as the other apothecaries, they can be "joined" by a lieutenant or captain/chapter master. So, not only Dead Companies (and dreads) with 6+, but also sternguard/vanguard and both foot and jump assault intercessors. Bladeguard will cry for this type of support (and for a few others)
I look at the AS of it as well, if you got a 5 or 6 save, a 5 or 6 INV will be great if cheap upgrade, but if you got 2 or 3 save, a 5 or 6, i say not as worth it, as less guns will rip the armour.
I can’t seem to understand Dev Wounds vs Mortal Wounds when it comes to FNP. If a model has a FNP against mortal wounds and the FNP specifically states FNP against mortal wounds can I apply that FNP to Dev wounds?
No, since the nerf Dev wounds are just wounds you can take no saves against. Devastating Wounds do not spill over, where as mortal wounds do. You can't use mortal only FNP on Dev Wounds.
Its crazy how in HH, DG have a armywide 5+ FNP (can buff it to 4 once per game) yet somehow 10k years of nurgle love doesn't help their resilience. now we play against armies such as Krieg that are using abilities that were a staple of DG back in 7th, even before we had a dedicated army. sad times.
Wait... I don't follow how that fast roll is the same as rolling three wounds individually. It seems like rolling them all would give you a huge leg up.
My only issue with this rule this edition is death guard don't really have it where others amrys have it alot. Just bs for the army that had it originally
The fast dice tip feels like a cheat.. on your example, on the second throw, you are much more likely to get atleast one 6 out of four dice than if you roll each attack individually.
I'm not a math whiz, but the equation you presented to justify 50% is inflated by being at the right number for a fun 12,4,3 interaction. I went ahead and did a little table to check and *correct me, anyone, if I'm wrong* for a 12W monster without and then with a 5+FNP: 12xD1 FNPx16 / 6xD2 FNPx8 / 4xD3 FNPX6 / 3xD4 FNPx4. I'm sure that all changes a bit again if the wounds are 13 or some other less easy multiple. Math and percentages are fun. Have a good day.
The problem with FNP is that it is faaar too common. It should be something that only a few rare things have, such as Great Unclean One, Old One Eye, etc.
@@JimH.MW? Hardly ever see them now. Now if you mean devastating wounds, I'd agree. Especially since there are sources of fnp that only work against mortal wounds (but not dev wounds)
I am a BA player and my army is 3 bricks of Sanguard with each brick being led by a Captain on Jump Pack and a SangPriest. With Armour of Contempt they are immortal. (Plus cover and go to ground)
Tbh if a model has a FNP, it ought to be that gimmick that COULD make a dude immortal if you prayed to the dice god before your game. No specifics or any of that silliness.
Stop complaining! They dropped the points and turned DG into a horde army. All you have to do is buy lots more models to reach 2000 pts. (Kidding of course, don’t really care for the feel of the faction in 10th at all. They don’t suck as much now, after the updates, but the big boost was the points adjustments, more so than the aura changes. A cynical person might feel that it’s just a dodge to force you to buy more plastic. But GW would never go that route, right?)
Why ? I'm genuinely interested, wouldn't it be replacing an ubiquitous very random chance to block damage with another one ? Actually while writing I realised that if you take an attack with huge damage, a single invuln will block like, all 12 damage of the attack, while a FnP would negate half or a third of the damage, so yeah I can see it, are there other reasons ?
imo invulns are far worse than fnps. Like a base fnp is against ALL damage so that affects damage, mortals and dev wounds. While invulns don't block 2 of those. Invulns are just better armour saves but due to MW and dev wounds they tend to be less useful than you would think. Fnps should be on anything that is unreasonably tough (so like nurgle, psyker stuff and specialised defensive infantry) while invulns should be on anything that is reasonably tough (so heavy infantry, leaders and tanks) or at least that's how I see how they should be done.
or even better: drop MWs, make invul saves generally not re-rollable (this is the reason MWs exist) and drop fnp (exists cause of MWs) on everything but the thoughest, biggest stuff out there. And don't add 25 million special rules fucking it up again. So you have: normal save - can be re-rolled and ignored invul save - can't be re-rolled nor ignored fnp - showing unreasonable thoughness of a creature (like a patriarch or carnifex)
I'm pretty unlucky, so 6+ feels pretty worthless. I remember a Kill Team game with the Hand of the Archon, and I made 2 out of 64 rolls for the 6+, and I've made almost none of them where it was meaningful for Chaos Knights, World Eaters, or Death Guard.
Nah. it's each time the model "would lose A wound." So you would role one armor save against the d2 attack. but if you failed and the 2 damage got through, you roll a fnp for both of them, because each point of damage results in the model "losing a wound."
FNP are a nice rule but they are far too common and inconsistently applied. Krieg having a 5+ FNP for how cheap they are compared with Grey Knight Paladins not having one is just bad rules writing. They need to be much rarer, and maybe limited to characters.
Because Mortals bypass pretty much every game mechanic, hit roll? No. Wound roll? No. Saving throw? No. Enough mortals reduces every mechanic to nonexistent and borderline makes every statline except wound count pointless and ruins balance. 9th was horrible about that, maleceptor at one point did something like 26 mortals a turn on average. FNP doesn't make it worthless to boost your offense to get more damage in the hopes of pushing through in the same way mortals make boosting your defense pointless to try to survive. Higher toughness, save, or negative to hit rolls all become meaningless to mortal wounds.
Mmm because they're not the equivalent? FNP is a chance to ignore damage. Usually a 5 or 6 but rarely a 4. So 17-50% chance. MW are automatic damage. 100%. Period. Short of a FNP (or very rare special ability) there is nothing you can do about MW. You just take damage and/or die. As the comment above stated, MW make stats utterly irrelevant. FNP does not.
@@JimH. I dunno based on comments 4+ seems more common than people think. For example orks lists can give it to any one character with enhancements. I could get a dude with a 5+ invuln and 4+ FNP for like 100 points. And he has 9 wounds I think( it's the deffkilla wartrike). And in comments I saw at least two other ways to get a 4+ FNP.
Feel no pain in many cases is to powerful, as you say companies like the death guard should have it and all theory and the daemons instead of having invulnerable saves
i think since i startet i 4ed. feel no pain have been werid and out of place for the game. i think cover should be the feel no pain save and feel no pain should be removed or replaced with something else.
Could not agree more. FNP is a really stupid mechanic that is needed to counter how much powercreep there has been; invulnerable saves that do nothing and vehicles with toughness instead of armor...
SMALL CORRECTION - poxwalkers have a 5+ Feel No Pain this edition, not 6+ like last time round. Maybe Accursed Cultist mutants could be one example (though they do have the torments to complicate matters)
Wow, I’ve still been playing them with 6+++, this whole time! Ahah
On krieg the 5+ is very good. Because they just keep trucking and they come back. The other player always assumes the small bit of anti infantry fire is enough but it isn't.
So dump my volcano lance into them every time. Truly the imperial way.
Add a a primaris psyker for a 4+ invul and is guard's ultimate damage sponge
@@Felici4baddon that combo always surprises the enemy
@@Felici4baddon invul against psychic don't forget, it is really not good.
@sirflapfla97 alot of points though. 250 points is a hell of alot
Easiest way to explain the 50% vs 33% added durability for me is this.. how much of their original damage are they dealing with 1/3 of it negated? 66.6%. How much do you need to multiply that new damage by to kill it now? Well you would need 33.3 or half to add up to 100%... so 150% damage needed (or "50% more") = 50% more durability
Biggest mistake is people not noticing the difference between types of fnp, fnp against psychic is only on psychic, fnp on mortals etc
MMM But the Rule as Written says when they would take a Wound it doesn't specify the type so you can argue it covers both.
@@AlbertoMartinez765 then there would be no reason for variations of FNP to exist, why would you have FNP against psychic if it covers everything anyway? doesn't make sense mate
@@chaosclg this is correct
@@AlbertoMartinez765 the specifics of the x+ fnp vs mortals overides the general fnp rule
Bad rule writing, thats all
Army wide FNP on Black Templars has been extremely useful in my experience. Even one spike during a shooting phase can save a ton of value. Plus, FNP's often force your opponent to commit more shooting into a unit as they have to account for the potential of FNPs hitting.
It's brutal on BTs, especially with the big Crusader blobs. I had to play into that twice as Necrons at my last RTT, and it totally hairballed my shooting. My Doomstalkers and C'tan could not punch through against the large numbers of infantry, and I just got picked to pieces by a million chainsword attacks. It was ROUGH
"If you hate your injury hard enough it will cease to exist!" High Marshall Helbrecht.
The 4+ fnp on a iron hands termi captain made it feel unkilliable every turn of shooting
I've had great success with this enhancement. He's won me games by surviving on the last objective!
Could you do another Math-hammer video on the effects of Combi-weapons please? Such as how effective they are at 4+, at 3+ (like the buff Chaos infantry gets from an Exalted Champion), how useful "Anti-infantry x" is on them, and how it ties in with Devastating Wounds.
Not all weapons have those variables available to them, and it's worth knowing how useful they are to run versus, say, a massive flurry of bolter fire.
I'd like this level of of survivability on Death Guard, thank you very much.
But now we're a horde army. We can buy another 500 points of Death Guard, and wait until GW changes it all again with our codex.
@@chopsworth3833 no you are 8th Ed eldar now. instead of regular defence, you get to stack -BS/WS and -1hit to avoid attacks
yeah but GW has changed death guard to the legion of stinky, I guess we will have to wait for our codex
I know some Black Templars players who might as well have an army wide feel no pain...
(Im a templar player) the fnp is great. I love playing elite 3W space marines but it’s so depressing when they get wiped by mass damage 3 attacks. The fnp counteracts that. It also feels like you have to skew too much into melee if you take the other vows
We do, u mad? lmao
Uphold the honor of the emperor does not lie.
Add Tännhausers bones to a unit and in the emperor's name we ball
@@homelessswede9675Uphold still doing work even in 10th. Went from 5+ in 9th to 6+, but no downside like it was in 9th.
@@mattkeepingazoriustactical Plan is to gift Tännhausers bones to a terminator character, altough i dont have much experience so i hope it will go well
A non blockable save that's in addition to the extra layers of defences
How could that go wrong
Yeah, Mozrog and his generic cohorts are especially bad. No model should have a 3+ 4++ and 4+++. It's just ridiculous.
@@effindave6909and not like orks aren't already unreasonably though rn...
Its on each point of damage mind you. So 1 wound models with a fnp vs dmg 2 is drastically worse.
@@dracometeors3010 Care to elaborate on how Orks are unreasonable currently? They're sitting at a pretty reasonable win rate around 53-54% depending on your data source.
@effindave6909 Mozrogs tough for sure but he's far from unkillable and frankly his damage output is pretty poor.
Fnp is generally great all the time but I especially love them on 2 or 3 wound models, which people like to target with efficient d2 d3 shots. On a 3 wound model a 6+++ gives you a 50% chance to waste a cleared shot, doubling the effective hp of the model. Forcing that overkill is great.
No, just as six attempts on a six up don't add up to a 100% chance, three attempts don't add up to 50%.
Actual formula would be:
1/6
+(1-1/6)×1/6
+(1-1/6-((1-1/6)×1/6)×1/6
=1/6+5/36+25/216
=0.42129629629
So the chance of at least one wound out of three being ignored is only 42%
I think they mean a 3 wound model can eat 2 D3 shots if it makes the save.@@geonsilberlicht4632
4+ FNP Hive Tyrant goes brrrrr
More like " MRLUVBBRRRRRTARFG"
... Until a Knight Castellan double-tapped it with a Volcano Lance. Two shots; both hit, both wound, fail both saves, fail CP reroll, and I don't bother rolling FNP for 30 damage on a 10 wound model...
@@sebastianrubin7476 I once got 30 damage on my Illuminor Szeras, and I managed to save the model with 3 Wounds remaining thanks to fnp hahaha
Thanks for this! I realized that the 6+ FNP Templars can get with the Uphold the Honor of the Emperor vow is a lot more valuable than I thought.
I've been running a melee heavy Sisters list with Arco Flagellants, Penitent Engine, and Repentia Squads. They have a 4+,5+, and a 5+ respectively. Those FNPs definitely help them stay alive so I can use them. Especially when I have to move them across the battlefield to reach enemies beciase of my bad deployment.
Thank you so much for that fast rolling tip for light infantry! That'll be used quite frequently in my group's games now.
That 6+ FNP really helped out my Legionaries the other day. They were subjected to a lot of tickling from storm bolters and splinter rifles, but the Master of Possession kept them on that objective all game, barring three. Bit of a surprise, as I hasn't intended to use them at all, but I had to find 500 points quickly to allow somebody else to play.
Now if only I hasn't forgotten about Dark Obscuration...
I noticed you put poxwalkers under a 6up fnp, in 10th they’re now a 5up which is nice
FNP was at its most logical in 5ED, as it actually represented not feeling pain.
The issue with it at the time was that it was too powerful against small arms, as certain codex books gave it out at a 4+++ level in a game where weapons basically did 1 damage.
Back then, FNP had no effect against particularly powerful attacks- those which had the Instant Death rule, including where the S was twice the T of the target, and ones that were capable of bypassing 'any' armour save.
As I used to describe it to people learning the rules at the time: "The model can ignore the pain of having its legs cut off as much as it wants- but it still can't move or charge any more!"
Since 8ED, and the introduction of Mortal Wounds, this has been turned on its head.
In an effort to combat the issue of re-rollable invulnerable saves, MWs were intended to bypass these to stop them being so much of an issue. FNP type rolls were then utilised to be a counter to MWs.
The problems with this plan were multiple, but not least was the fact that after 7ED ended, there were no re-rollable invulnerable saves in the game. They'd all been removed, and the stated idea behind MWs given in the previews had been fully addressed by the time the 8ED rules were actually released. Instead of taking this into account, GW has doubled down on mortal wounds and the use of FNP type 'saves',
What this has left the game with is a situation where lore and logic says many attacks which should be able to be stopped by an invulnerable save, but instead can't do this.
Some of the descriptions of these saves literally state they are specific to stopping attacks that the game now represents with the mortal wound system.
The upshot of this is that an attack which does 3MW from a powerful melee weapon that lore says is deadly if it makes contact, and thus has to be either dodged or blocked with a Storm Shield, instead has no roll the average model can be equipped with. You can't dodge it as an assassin, or utilise some form of energy shield designed to stop the attack to do so. Instead a 3W Terminator will simply die without its controlling player having any agency over the situation, whereas a third of the poxwalkers that should logically be turned to mush instead just keep going.
Because in 8Ed onwards: "You can dodge out of the way of the attack and not be hit, but you'll still die- but if your legs & arms are removed, you can still shoot your guns on the run."
The first game of 10th I played, my 5 man infiltrators survived so much in that first turn. 2w infantry can survive a lot of damage 1 and 2 attacks by just rolling average
Good to hear you are recovering, get well, I hope you had a Merry Christmas!
That fast rolling tip is really useful!
Personally I think FNP is too good. Armor counter's is high AP and mortals, invulnerable has mortals. FNP has nothing. You always get it. Because I am old so I remember when you could lose FNP saves to instant death weapons and if it doubled your enemies toughness with strength which had some balance to it. I just watched batrep of GSC shrugging of tau rail guns with 4+ FNP. Its silly and dumb. A simple change could be if weapon strength is double you reduce FNP by 1 or lose completely lose it. I remember using demolisher cannons against old plague marines to negate their T5 FNP+5. There should be counterplay like in the past.
5+ or 6+ fnps are strong but not overbearing as to where they need a counter. And usually, things with FNPs, especially good ones, dont have good characteristics for other saves.
Now a 4+ FNP is frankly, quite silly. But those aren't common.
GSC Aberrants are the only example I can think of of a unit wide 4+ fnp. And while Aberrants are pretty fucked levels of tanky between them having the -1 to wound them with s7+ weapons, and the 4+ fnp, they also are easily some of the most expensive things GSC can field, at 185 for 5. Thats nearly 200 points for 5 guys who arent very fast, have no guns, and also need an additional 75 point investment to get their ability online.
Now, mind you, yes, a brick of 10 aberrants with an abominant is very hard to kill. But at that point, thats 445 points for 1 melee unit. They could have brought a fucking Baneblade variant for around the same point cost, and youre probably gonna have just as much of a hell of a time chewing through one of them. And Aberrants dont get cannons with absurd statblocks.
Also FNPs on squads can be countered with higher damage attacks. If a squad with 1 wound eats a 2 dmg attack they need to succeed on twice as many fnp saves for each model to not die.
I did a match where I had a unit of 10 heavy intercessors lead by the iron father sit on the central objective and they managed to kill a deathleaper and a maleceptor in melee and would on average maybe loose like 1 model a turn most of the time. I basically held the point up until turn 5
Interesting, explains why my Chaos Spawn with the +1 to Feel No Pain blessing of Khorne feel so durable! If only their healing would being back models like Reanimation Protocols...
I play world eaters and I laughed at getting a 6+ fnp. Then I used it and was amazed. It really did add a lot of durability by things just barley surviving something that should have killed them or just shrugging off damage completely on a good roll. Now I use it almost every turn
I mean, World Eaters can have a 6+ Feel No Pain for the entire game if they want. The more Jakhals oriented lists often do in order to take advantage of the fact the army rules increase the Jakhals ability to a 5+
People also forget you can give Exalted Eightbound a 5+ FNP too
I play world eaters and until you get up close and personal yeah feel no pains is a must.
With the way that most competitive armies are running infiltrators, I wish that Invocatus gave a +1 FNP instead of scout. The best it generally does is make it so two units don’t get boxed into the deployment zone (really just one gets truly freed, and the other is still having to get around the unit of wraiths/beastmasters/nuglings/stealth suits/scouts/whatever else that just negates him being effective
FNP is a huge deal with the C'tan, especially since they half wounds taken before rolling for each individual wound so a failed save on a 6D weapon is effectively only 2 wound on average (and more often then not can even drop to just 1 wound).
Wait, what? Isn't it that passing feel no pain negates one attack?
From what you say it seems like if say poxwalker is hit by damage 5 weapon it has to pass 5 feel no pain saves in a row from single attack?
Also do multiple wound models roll for each point of damage separately?
Perfect timing for this video! New player and first combat patrol game with tau and the FNP aura had us confused
Definitely worth it on Imperial Knights. Won a few games simply because they shrugged off wounds that would have otherwise killed them, and they remained in the game for longer. Bringing it up to 5+++ makes them even better.
Kastelan robots with FNP 5+ from the Enginseer are pretty tanky. Even if it's only for a single model, just start by allocating to it.
Watching your videos as I work on my pile of shame, see this like "damn this wasn't here 40 minutes ago"
Keep up the good work man
What I keep dabbleling with is Allies. Armiger Warglaives to be specific. Suicide walkers with some punch while playing mostly hit amd run Raven Guard
All I know is running 10 heavy intercessors with their 3 wounds and iron father’s 5+++ attached made them a unit I was happy for anyone to shoot at
Laughs in Illuminor Szeras. 2+ 4++ 4+++ T8 W9 all for 160 points. Even if he isn’t buffing infantry, he’s awesome objective holder and even better if he can gain lone operative being near out of sight scarabs or something
Krieg are absolutely amazing with a 5++ fnp. The 4+ invul from a Primaris Psyker is good too but I think getting them in cover and giving them take cover is enough of a trolling save boost that they tend to survive pretty well but saves you 60 pts per brick.
Also love Primaris Psykers with Scions getting out of Taurox Primes for crazy damage output so don’t always want them for defence
However don’t underestimate how troll-ish Psykers are as a defence against Grey Knights and Thousand Sons. 4++ FNP against psychic attacks is crazy good
Since it states "any time this model would suffer a wound" if you are looking at 18 damage 2 shots, couldn't you just roll 36 dice and determine from there? Fast rolling dice determining damage can result in shenanigans anyway, so I don't think it would be unfair
you can do that but only when your saving on a single model unit
@@conspiracy_marine9238 y tho
@auspextactics Thanks for the video. I was wondering if you might want to do a video on GW Direct models? New players might not know what they are, how to get them, or how they affect the price of certain armies, like 'nids or Guard?
Nothing is quite as satisfying as having 20 crusaders that your opponent just can't do anything to in the shootimg phase thanks to a 5+ fnp that then have 5 chainsword attacks each in melee
The irony that the army which has the least FNP now is Death Guard.
As a Death Guard player, I still feel the pain
This is a GREAT idea for an ongoing series, kind sir. 🎉❤
On 3 wound squighog boys it HAS to be good. 5+ on a 3 wound model, on average 1 boy takes 2 damage 3 shots. Thats 100% wounds increase. Pretty annoying the most efficient fire power is actually the least.
Not enough access to FNP on standard SM imo. Could of been a good feature for veteran units.
That Ork model in the thumbnail is definitely being remade. Doesn’t it look like the model teased in that recent Warhammer upload.
How does FNP interact with Tank Shock? Let's say my opponent rams his Knight Rampager into my Void Dragon. With the claw, he can roll 22 dice, which should yield around 7 5+ rolls. The ability caps at 6MW, but is that before or after the FNP rolls? Do I need to roll 7 FNPs, or just 6?
They can only inflict a maximum of 6 mortals. So the extra would be disregarded.
You'd only have to roll for the 6 wounds.
@@DJCallidus right, because i determine whether the wound does damage or not, after having being wounded. Thank you.
I have to ask to get this right: You get a wound with damage 3. You pass the fnp and 1 dmg of 3 is ignored? I thought it's a ignore the wound so no damage regardless if 1, 2 or more
Nope, if you have 3 damage coming in and you fail 2 FNP's then you still take the two damage. Otherwise single wound models would have a 1/3 chance to just not die, making them very overpowered
You don't roll 1 FNP for a 3 damage attack. You roll 1 FNP for EACH point of damage. So with a FNP 5+ the expected is saving 1 out of 3 damage, so 2 damage goes through
Not very well written. It says if you get a wound, not one wound, not one or more damage excactly, you roll to get the wound ignored, so I thought, doesn't relay on the dmg. If you can't you get the dmg. A little sad, but good to know, that the rules don't mean what's written, it means, what everyone understands.
Every wound your model has is a singular hp you don't take 3 damage to 1hp that would be silly so if you have a 3hp model n you wound with a 3 damage weapon you can kill him as that 3 damage counts as 3 separate wounds
saves are rolled per succesfull wound roll and fnps are rolled per damage value
Need a Alpha Legion video! Just read chapter 9 of Legion and wow! That's a interesting plot line!
In world eaters it's okay, it hasn't once saved my jackals though, even when I get the 5+ feel no pain it means almost nothing. 6+ feels like maybe I might do something, but they rarely make much of a difference. It only does anything when my saving throws take care of most of the damage. 6+ feels like a cruel joke of we're giving you some extra toughness.
I loved it on my maulerfiends, shrugging off pesky lascannon wounds and allowing them to crump whatever was shooting them in the following turn!
@@IamElChapo yes, there it makes a difference. The bigger stuff getting it is more fun.
Imperial Knights die lik flies despite FNP. I wouldn't say that it's useless, but it rarely makes much difference.
10 heavy intercessors with Father Feirros, with 5+ FNP, is my favorite unit to hold objects
Flesh is Weak 💀
i once had a world eaters lord shrug 3 turns of shooting and melee with a 4+ invuln and a 6+ fnp so i would say theyre pretty worth it :)
Bjorn the fell handed with T9, halve dmg, smoke, AoC and fnp 5+ is really2 tough to kill, auto include unit whenever i play 2k game
So, for my multi-wound models (my Black Templars) there is no fast way to roll against multi-damage attacks, correct? You have to roll each failed saves damage group of damage one at time?
Auspex... as a devout Death Guard player... I took a look at Blood Angels, Dark angels, and Space wolfs... All I'm saying is... Where is my feel no pains ): why do I have to bring a 160 Daemon Prince for a 6+ D:
And Blood Angels can give units fnp 5+ with the sang. priests, with or without jump pack. (And increase the melee weapon AP, as a side bonus)
Also, as the other apothecaries, they can be "joined" by a lieutenant or captain/chapter master.
So, not only Dead Companies (and dreads) with 6+, but also sternguard/vanguard and both foot and jump assault intercessors.
Bladeguard will cry for this type of support (and for a few others)
I look at the AS of it as well, if you got a 5 or 6 save, a 5 or 6 INV will be great if cheap upgrade, but if you got 2 or 3 save, a 5 or 6, i say not as worth it, as less guns will rip the armour.
“You’d have to roll 216 dice to save a single poxwalker” - so you’re saying there is a chance!
I can’t seem to understand Dev Wounds vs Mortal Wounds when it comes to FNP. If a model has a FNP against mortal wounds and the FNP specifically states FNP against mortal wounds can I apply that FNP to Dev wounds?
No, since the nerf Dev wounds are just wounds you can take no saves against. Devastating Wounds do not spill over, where as mortal wounds do.
You can't use mortal only FNP on Dev Wounds.
Waiting for the Auspex video on the 2024 sneak peek silhouettes like 😰
Its crazy how in HH, DG have a armywide 5+ FNP (can buff it to 4 once per game) yet somehow 10k years of nurgle love doesn't help their resilience. now we play against armies such as Krieg that are using abilities that were a staple of DG back in 7th, even before we had a dedicated army. sad times.
Faith in the Dark Gods is a fickle thing, whereas, the *Emperor* protects.
Explains why arco flagellants (2 Wounds and 4+ FNP) are so durable. And why C'Tan are a must pick for Necrons right now.
Shame the nightbringer didn’t get a fnp
@@rtl97 didint all the ctan get a 5+ fnp?
@@user-hv6gi9ux6z hmmm he might have. I just thought it was halve all damage
As an iron hands player FnP is always worth it. Just to see the light in your opponents eyes fade when you make all of them on a 6+
Making all of them on 6+ is very lucky and unexpected though, but it can happen, sure
Wait... I don't follow how that fast roll is the same as rolling three wounds individually. It seems like rolling them all would give you a huge leg up.
My only issue with this rule this edition is death guard don't really have it where others amrys have it alot. Just bs for the army that had it originally
The fast dice tip feels like a cheat.. on your example, on the second throw, you are much more likely to get atleast one 6 out of four dice than if you roll each attack individually.
I'm not a math whiz, but the equation you presented to justify 50% is inflated by being at the right number for a fun 12,4,3 interaction. I went ahead and did a little table to check and *correct me, anyone, if I'm wrong* for a 12W monster without and then with a 5+FNP: 12xD1 FNPx16 / 6xD2 FNPx8 / 4xD3 FNPX6 / 3xD4 FNPx4. I'm sure that all changes a bit again if the wounds are 13 or some other less easy multiple. Math and percentages are fun. Have a good day.
This video is bloody great. Thank you.
Back in the good old days when Death Guard were tough.
Am I losing my mind? Don’t poxwalkers have a 5+ fnp this edition.
Really helpful video thanks!
The problem with FNP is that it is faaar too common. It should be something that only a few rare things have, such as Great Unclean One, Old One Eye, etc.
No, MW are "faaar too common."
@@JimH.MW? Hardly ever see them now.
Now if you mean devastating wounds, I'd agree. Especially since there are sources of fnp that only work against mortal wounds (but not dev wounds)
@@JimH. Then the soulution isn't to give more units FNP, it's to decrease the number of mortal wounds...
@@CardsAndComputer Not once did I say otherwise ;)
Doesn't Poxwalkers have Feel No Pain 5+?
This just gets me more excited to play blood angels in the future
I am a BA player and my army is 3 bricks of Sanguard with each brick being led by a Captain on Jump Pack and a SangPriest. With Armour of Contempt they are immortal. (Plus cover and go to ground)
@@jimtziv196 BA tournament results would indicate otherwise.
@@jimtziv196priest cant join sg tho? Or did they change that
@@JakimAkimyou are correct i believe, sang priest still can’t join sang guard, @jimtziv196 is mistaken
Love the complicated maths 🤓👍
Tbh, Orks need it, because 2 T-shirt saves are better than 1.
Tbh if a model has a FNP, it ought to be that gimmick that COULD make a dude immortal if you prayed to the dice god before your game.
No specifics or any of that silliness.
Since 10e Poxwalker have a 5+fnp but the math's stays the same
Worth half-damage for my whole army that already has quite weak damage profiles
Poxwalkers have a 5+ FNP.
Where is my Death Guard FNP GW???? WHERE IS MY DURABILITY????
Exactly this. My favorite army sucks, and I love 10th otherwise!
out the window when GW decided DG weren't about durability anymore (or ever were if you believe the retconning).
Stop complaining! They dropped the points and turned DG into a horde army. All you have to do is buy lots more models to reach 2000 pts. (Kidding of course, don’t really care for the feel of the faction in 10th at all. They don’t suck as much now, after the updates, but the big boost was the points adjustments, more so than the aura changes. A cynical person might feel that it’s just a dodge to force you to buy more plastic. But GW would never go that route, right?)
@@earnestwanderer2471 GW has a tendency to make people cynical.
I feel the pain
I thought poxwalkers were 5+ feel no pain
Invulnerable saves need to become far more rare and FNPs need to become more common.
Why ? I'm genuinely interested, wouldn't it be replacing an ubiquitous very random chance to block damage with another one ?
Actually while writing I realised that if you take an attack with huge damage, a single invuln will block like, all 12 damage of the attack, while a FnP would negate half or a third of the damage, so yeah I can see it, are there other reasons ?
imo invulns are far worse than fnps. Like a base fnp is against ALL damage so that affects damage, mortals and dev wounds. While invulns don't block 2 of those.
Invulns are just better armour saves but due to MW and dev wounds they tend to be less useful than you would think.
Fnps should be on anything that is unreasonably tough (so like nurgle, psyker stuff and specialised defensive infantry) while invulns should be on anything that is reasonably tough (so heavy infantry, leaders and tanks) or at least that's how I see how they should be done.
or even better: drop MWs, make invul saves generally not re-rollable (this is the reason MWs exist) and drop fnp (exists cause of MWs) on everything but the thoughest, biggest stuff out there.
And don't add 25 million special rules fucking it up again.
So you have:
normal save - can be re-rolled and ignored
invul save - can't be re-rolled nor ignored
fnp - showing unreasonable thoughness of a creature (like a patriarch or carnifex)
*cries in Cryptothralls*
I'm pretty unlucky, so 6+ feels pretty worthless. I remember a Kill Team game with the Hand of the Archon, and I made 2 out of 64 rolls for the 6+, and I've made almost none of them where it was meaningful for Chaos Knights, World Eaters, or Death Guard.
So Mortarian technically has 24 wounds, and Trajaan technically has 10.5, nice.
Wait I thought you rolled an fnp against each attack not each individual tick of damage? ie. a single D2 attack you would roll one fnp not two?
Nope. One die per damage inflicted. Two damage, two dice.
1 per each point of damage
Nah. it's each time the model "would lose A wound." So you would role one armor save against the d2 attack. but if you failed and the 2 damage got through, you roll a fnp for both of them, because each point of damage results in the model "losing a wound."
cheers gents had no idea
4+ fnp on aberrants is so good lol
Surely FNP is best save
poxwalkers have a 5 up fnp, not six
FNP are a nice rule but they are far too common and inconsistently applied. Krieg having a 5+ FNP for how cheap they are compared with Grey Knight Paladins not having one is just bad rules writing. They need to be much rarer, and maybe limited to characters.
5+ fnp makes my wife’s vortex beast just that much harder to pop.
Yo, Auspex. It's okay if you decide to catch an hour or two of sleep here or there. 🙂
Love me a good FNP
So much that Death Guard can't afford it.
I honestly don’t know why folks are so often opposed to mortals but love the defensive equivalent
Because Mortals bypass pretty much every game mechanic, hit roll? No. Wound roll? No. Saving throw? No. Enough mortals reduces every mechanic to nonexistent and borderline makes every statline except wound count pointless and ruins balance. 9th was horrible about that, maleceptor at one point did something like 26 mortals a turn on average. FNP doesn't make it worthless to boost your offense to get more damage in the hopes of pushing through in the same way mortals make boosting your defense pointless to try to survive. Higher toughness, save, or negative to hit rolls all become meaningless to mortal wounds.
Mmm because they're not the equivalent? FNP is a chance to ignore damage. Usually a 5 or 6 but rarely a 4. So 17-50% chance. MW are automatic damage. 100%. Period. Short of a FNP (or very rare special ability) there is nothing you can do about MW. You just take damage and/or die. As the comment above stated, MW make stats utterly irrelevant. FNP does not.
@@JimH. I dunno based on comments 4+ seems more common than people think. For example orks lists can give it to any one character with enhancements. I could get a dude with a 5+ invuln and 4+ FNP for like 100 points. And he has 9 wounds I think( it's the deffkilla wartrike). And in comments I saw at least two other ways to get a 4+ FNP.
Hahah: see universal uninteractive damage good when it’s negative bad when positive. Thanks for making that point yall!!!
@@JimH. nothing you can do to stop a FNP turning off your damage tho!
Can you feel the pain?
Feel no pain in many cases is to powerful, as you say companies like the death guard should have it and all theory and the daemons instead of having invulnerable saves
i think since i startet i 4ed. feel no pain have been werid and out of place for the game. i think cover should be the feel no pain save and feel no pain should be removed or replaced with something else.
Could not agree more. FNP is a really stupid mechanic that is needed to counter how much powercreep there has been; invulnerable saves that do nothing and vehicles with toughness instead of armor...