The sand and sea analogy is great! The foundation dips lower and you become gradually more immersed. It’s that feeling of accomplishment as you understand something new and realise your progress, followed by a reality check as you adjust your perspective to your new position. Your ability has grown, but now you’re in deeper water and are more aware of what you’re lacking. Once you’re fully submerged in the water, and the sand deep enough to be out of reach, THAT is when you’re fluent. It’s when your language skills serve all intents and purposes, so that you’re no longer relying on any other language.
I always like Richard’s positivity, but this is only a “problem” because people don’t want to use more precise metrics like ECFR levels (A1, A2, B1 etc.) And that’s because using ECFR or equivalent levels would take away wiggle room and make their accomplishments seem, actually, reasonable given the time they put in.
I legit HATE the question, “ How many languages do you speak?” So many people ask it as small talk. And I never have any idea what to say. I live and work in Japan, so I clearly speak Japanese. But I never learned formally, so it is completely functional but a lot of bits are a hot mess. French, on the other hand, I did to university level and am a grammar beast and can read and write, BUT I hadn’t spoken in 10 years, so I couldn’t speak, but I knew everything. And there are a bunch of other languages with other patterns. And the whole thing is too complex to be a sound byte.
I sometimes answer to this annoying question, because it is not seldom annoying, one in two ways: 1. So many that I have stopped to count them (not true) ... reactions to it are amazing and funny ... or 2. I speak 3 and half languages. Then immediately comes the question: which one would be the "half" and why. Also some funny conversations develop out of it.
It's honestly all depends on your perspective, like the glass is half full or half empty or the dress is blue and white or black and gold it solely depends on how someone views it. For example as a native Russian speaker I know that I don't know alot of Russian language , even though I'd reckon I know it better than 98% of Russian people, but some would consider even more basic levels of Russian as "knowing" or "speaking" Russian... Like for example all these caveat words in Russian like "сусека" , "просека", "иссекать" and "изсекать" etc etc etc, all of these non common words, which I bet 99% of Polyglots would never even learn in their lives (though ofcourse I wish them all the best)... but it's impossible to know pretty much any language at a 100%... so how many words would be considered as knowing a language? It solely depends on the person and his opinion of "knowing a language". For example just by knowing Russian language really well you can pretty much read and understand any other Slavic language, and also see connections with other world languages like English or Spanish... (there are more connections than any average person or a polyglot can imagine). So, would that be considered as knowing other Slavic languages? If I can read them and understand them, just by knowing Russian really well? Also an important part, that people are also missing is studying not just the language itself but the history of it as well, as for example some things got outdated or reformed but still pop up in some other languages to this day. It's also very funny seeing online when people give examples of "translating" Russian words to other Slavic languages (and non Slavic languages sometimes too) for example just recently saw this Slovak language (I think)the teacher translated "Myslit'" in Slovak as "dumat'" in Russian...🤦♂️ except that if you translate myslit'" as "myslit'" it would practically be the same thing, as that word also exists in Russian, in fact that particular word is perhaps more historically engraved in the Russian culture than "dumat'", because there's a folklore tale about a father of Rurik (Baltic Slav /founder of Russia) in the 9th century and his name was Gostomysl (which roughly translates to something like "deep thinker") . So you can pretty much understand every single Slavic word just by knowing Russian, though the transcription of words is often slightly changed so if you manage to decipher it you will always have the same word in Russian. So instead of "learning many languages" and caring about the "number" of languages, you could just learn one language really well, and understand other languages because of it.
I like to define fluency in the Spanish sense of “con fluidez” which is closer to “flowing” in English. So for me, it is quite possible to be A1 or A2 fluent, where you can only say very everyday things, but you say them naturally and you might even sound native if no one asks you a difficult question. I think A2 fluency would be a great aim for schools, instead of B2 grammar (ie, knowing a lot of vocabulary and being able to read, but not being able to easily use a language) that schools usually use.
I don't think there is anything "magic" about being a native speaker. They say that English has over a quarter million words, but the average native speaker only knows approx. 25,000. I've heard plenty of non-native speakers who are more fluent in English than I (a native speaker) am, in the sense that they easily, instantly, and idiomatically express themselves, even if they have a "foreign" accent.
Nice talk I loved the sand analogy. I work as a programmer and overall my perspective is focused on practicality. For me a language is a tool that allows you to express your thoughts and understand the thought and feelings of the others . With that in mind, I think you can say you speak a language at the moment you can understand (even if is not perfect understanding) the others thoughts and feelings and you can make yourself understood (even if you still lack some word).
I remember after living a couple of months in the US I got good with fluency. But then, I started getting my master's degree in linguistics and the English language when suddenly English became very unfamilliar. I had to get reacquainted with it again.
I struggled a lot to learn English, when I started working on IT support, I was able to help anyone (using English) to fix their computer, so I was "pretty fluent", however if someone asked about the weather in Costa Rica, I was speachless, and couldn't put a sentence together... So was I fluent? I don't think so, but I was able to communicate for my needs, and that is a great start point to become fluent I guess...
Just becaure you passed a C1 or C2 doesn´t really mean you speak a language. It means you passed a text! When I was in france years ago and went through a language course in a university for a year,I passed the B2 exams and entered C1 my spoken french was very poor.There were plenty of students in the class who couldnt even string a sentence together but could write esssays and pages or correct french and also read it.But couldnt speak.I found this to be very interesting and strange.Obviously different parts of the brain work and learn differently.
i saw you in ohrid near the sofia church, but i did not stop you, i don know why. i speak 5 languages + mother lang, thats 6. i understand additional 2 based on my knowledge of the basic 5, i don yet speak them but will very soon. on top i read and listen and understand additional 3 southslavic languages based on my mother lang and i understand additional 2 slavic languages based on my russian knowledge. im here i think, i can say i understand 7 + my mother lang + 5 on the side basiclly from the similar lexic of those base 7. when can you say you are a polyglot?
The sand and sea analogy is great! The foundation dips lower and you become gradually more immersed.
It’s that feeling of accomplishment as you understand something new and realise your progress, followed by a reality check as you adjust your perspective to your new position. Your ability has grown, but now you’re in deeper water and are more aware of what you’re lacking.
Once you’re fully submerged in the water, and the sand deep enough to be out of reach, THAT is when you’re fluent. It’s when your language skills serve all intents and purposes, so that you’re no longer relying on any other language.
I always like Richard’s positivity, but this is only a “problem” because people don’t want to use more precise metrics like ECFR levels (A1, A2, B1 etc.) And that’s because using ECFR or equivalent levels would take away wiggle room and make their accomplishments seem, actually, reasonable given the time they put in.
wow...this brought back memories!
I legit HATE the question, “ How many languages do you speak?” So many people ask it as small talk. And I never have any idea what to say. I live and work in Japan, so I clearly speak Japanese. But I never learned formally, so it is completely functional but a lot of bits are a hot mess. French, on the other hand, I did to university level and am a grammar beast and can read and write, BUT I hadn’t spoken in 10 years, so I couldn’t speak, but I knew everything. And there are a bunch of other languages with other patterns. And the whole thing is too complex to be a sound byte.
I sometimes answer to this annoying question, because it is not seldom annoying, one in two ways:
1. So many that I have stopped to count them (not true) ... reactions to it are amazing and funny ...
or
2. I speak 3 and half languages. Then immediately comes the question: which one would be the "half" and why. Also some funny conversations develop out of it.
It's honestly all depends on your perspective, like the glass is half full or half empty or the dress is blue and white or black and gold it solely depends on how someone views it.
For example as a native Russian speaker I know that I don't know alot of Russian language , even though I'd reckon I know it better than 98% of Russian people, but some would consider even more basic levels of Russian as "knowing" or "speaking" Russian...
Like for example all these caveat words in Russian like "сусека" , "просека", "иссекать" and "изсекать" etc etc etc, all of these non common words, which I bet 99% of Polyglots would never even learn in their lives (though ofcourse I wish them all the best)... but it's impossible to know pretty much any language at a 100%... so how many words would be considered as knowing a language? It solely depends on the person and his opinion of "knowing a language".
For example just by knowing Russian language really well you can pretty much read and understand any other Slavic language, and also see connections with other world languages like English or Spanish... (there are more connections than any average person or a polyglot can imagine). So, would that be considered as knowing other Slavic languages? If I can read them and understand them, just by knowing Russian really well? Also an important part, that people are also missing is studying not just the language itself but the history of it as well, as for example some things got outdated or reformed but still pop up in some other languages to this day.
It's also very funny seeing online when people give examples of "translating" Russian words to other Slavic languages (and non Slavic languages sometimes too) for example just recently saw this Slovak language (I think)the teacher translated "Myslit'" in Slovak as "dumat'" in Russian...🤦♂️ except that if you translate myslit'" as "myslit'" it would practically be the same thing, as that word also exists in Russian, in fact that particular word is perhaps more historically engraved in the Russian culture than "dumat'", because there's a folklore tale about a father of Rurik (Baltic Slav /founder of Russia) in the 9th century and his name was Gostomysl (which roughly translates to something like "deep thinker") . So you can pretty much understand every single Slavic word just by knowing Russian, though the transcription of words is often slightly changed so if you manage to decipher it you will always have the same word in Russian. So instead of "learning many languages" and caring about the "number" of languages, you could just learn one language really well, and understand other languages because of it.
I like to define fluency in the Spanish sense of “con fluidez” which is closer to “flowing” in English. So for me, it is quite possible to be A1 or A2 fluent, where you can only say very everyday things, but you say them naturally and you might even sound native if no one asks you a difficult question. I think A2 fluency would be a great aim for schools, instead of B2 grammar (ie, knowing a lot of vocabulary and being able to read, but not being able to easily use a language) that schools usually use.
I don't think there is anything "magic" about being a native speaker. They say that English has over a quarter million words, but the average native speaker only knows approx. 25,000. I've heard plenty of non-native speakers who are more fluent in English than I (a native speaker) am, in the sense that they easily, instantly, and idiomatically express themselves, even if they have a "foreign" accent.
Nice talk I loved the sand analogy.
I work as a programmer and overall my perspective is focused on practicality. For me a language is a tool that allows you to express your thoughts and understand the thought and feelings of the others . With that in mind, I think you can say you speak a language at the moment you can understand (even if is not perfect understanding) the others thoughts and feelings and you can make yourself understood (even if you still lack some word).
Excellent talk! I love the sea and beach imagery.
I remember after living a couple of months in the US I got good with fluency. But then, I started getting my master's degree in linguistics and the English language when suddenly English became very unfamilliar. I had to get reacquainted with it again.
I find that its very much like when one says they play the violin, the hidden assumption is that you play it well.
I struggled a lot to learn English, when I started working on IT support, I was able to help anyone (using English) to fix their computer, so I was "pretty fluent", however if someone asked about the weather in Costa Rica, I was speachless, and couldn't put a sentence together... So was I fluent? I don't think so, but I was able to communicate for my needs, and that is a great start point to become fluent I guess...
Just becaure you passed a C1 or C2 doesn´t really mean you speak a language. It means you passed a text!
When I was in france years ago and went through a language course in a university for a year,I passed the B2 exams and entered C1 my spoken french was very poor.There were plenty of students in the class who couldnt even string a sentence together but could write esssays and pages or correct french and also read it.But couldnt speak.I found this to be very interesting and strange.Obviously different parts of the brain work and learn differently.
I can't speak second language, so I admired to someone can speak any foreign languange, How did they do it? I from Indonesia
Saya mau belajar bahasa Indonesia 🤓🇮🇩
You are speaking a second language now!
@@clairegittens3707 i can write english a litle but I do it so struggle too, tanks for your attention
@@user-uf3qr9lx6u bahasa indonesiamu bagus
@@usahahobi2566 terima kasih...
dan bahasa Inggrismu juga bagus
i saw you in ohrid near the sofia church, but i did not stop you, i don know why.
i speak 5 languages + mother lang, thats 6. i understand additional 2 based on my knowledge of the basic 5, i don yet speak them but will very soon. on top i read and listen and understand additional 3 southslavic languages based on my mother lang and i understand additional 2 slavic languages based on my russian knowledge.
im here i think, i can say i understand 7 + my mother lang + 5 on the side basiclly from the similar lexic of those base 7.
when can you say you are a polyglot?
If you're Melania Trump, all you have to be able to do is say "bonjour, comment allez vous?"