Destiny 2 Lore - Is our Saint-14 the real... Saint-14? Is he from another timeline?
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- Опубликовано: 5 сен 2024
- Destiny 2's Lore and Story in the Echoes Episode has confronted Saint-14 with a critical question. Is he the real Saint-14. More specifically, is he the real Saint-14 from this timeline. In the new Act 2 story we're seeing that Saint and Osiris' memories of their romance are different and we're starting to see how that difference is driving a wedge between them. Today I wanted to explain how Saint-14 might be from a different timeline and how Osiris brought him back using the Sundial.
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I'm under the impression(and theory) that Saint-14's most important memories have been messed with by the Conductor.
@Deepkeel I was thinking the same thing. Another savathun like tactics to mess with our heads and question each othet until we start disconnecting.
@@itzeagle1969 Also, if The Conductor is who many think they might be then they're a complete and utter hypocrite.
I believe this Maya still seems 'lost' in the simulations she was running through and once she realized she had the ability of control, she was going to correct the dark she she left. She's a cold, calculated who had been obsessed with her'work' and doesn't care for the difference of what reality she's in.
It's possible but the story is more interesting if he really is from a seperate timeline and he and Osiris have to come to grips with that together
It really only takes one critical memory to plant a seed of doubt so its very possible.
Especially since Saint and Osiris' account of the Ronin Shell lore in Act 1 line up with each others, which only Osiris was there for but Saint was told about by Tallulah, and in Devotion he talks to Devrim about a memory of Osiris accidentally knocking a tea cup off Saint's shelf in an argument, only for him to put his hand on Saint's cheek after they exchange apologies, which seems to take place near Ronin Shell and Semitone Shift.
Saint crudely glues the cup together and keeps it as a memento because of how much that moment meant to him, and considering that cup still exists in our timeline, and its what he feeds Osiris the Nezarec tea with in Plunder, that memory lines up.
Personally I think Saint need to have a heart to heart conversation with someone that knows a thing or two on being a stranger in a timeline. Specifically, Saint-14 need to talk to Elizabeth Bray aka Exo Stranger.
I'mma be super disappointed if she doesn't make an appearance by the end, or at least if she isn't mentioned. Seems way too perfect thematically for her not to end up getting involved. Ik she's off with Ana having some sister bonding time but still
Saint-14 is a pretty jolly and unbreakable character pre-Echoes. So whatever the Conductor said to him, she had to have some major evidence and influence to back it up. Considering she may possess one of the Witness's Echoes, I'm fairly certain a lie was woven into whatever words she told him, much like how the Witness had honeyed lies for us when it tried to tempt us to join it.
She DOES have the Echo, it's the collar that she has around her neck and fashioned the ones the Vex have in its image(from what I percieved)
I wouldn't exactly call it a lie tbh.
Based on the most recent audio log we heard it implies our saint's love proposal to Osiris was of an osiris in a different timeline from our own.
Our Saint proposed his love when he requested a report log from Osiris, whereas this saint proposed his love when he and Osiris stared down at the city, that doesn't match up with our timeline.
My best guess to reject this logic is that the conductor fed him false memories perhaps?
But aside from that when I played season of dawn I always assumed that we were meant to travel to a different timeline to save saint-14
I guess this season is meant to clarify the consequences of our actions and clarify what we actually did, we are finally getting answers related to OUR actions so I'm actually excited to see where this goes.
@@horrorpleb249oh fuck it just dawned on me that Saint and Osiris were reunited for less than a year before Savathun took over Osiris, then Osiris was comatose and woke up but got wrapped up with the veil and the final shape stuff, these two have only had a small amount of time together no wonder they’re only just now realizing these problems, damn that’s unfortunate
@@horrorpleb249 that or his memories are being manipulated by the "conductor", since they seem to be able to influence/take control over the Vex's minds(as well as exos it would seem)
I highly doubt that wr lose Saint 14 though, he's as much of a fan favorite as Cayde, if not more so. Plus he's one of the main faces/voices in the game these days. Would be a dumb move to kill him off
My hair brained theory is that the conductor has power over vex(like) minds and did some goofy conscience swapping due to exos having vex milk as an ingredient
Saint is ours. Sure we saved a Saint with the sundial, but he left the forest through its front door, meaning its much less likely hes from another timeline.
He probably memory holed his first confession out of embarrassment
Well we also got the dead one from Curse Of Osiris, so unless we changed the outcome of that, we did save A version of Saint-14. Even though he's not OUR timeline's Saint, the moment we saved him was close enough to his death that he picked up the legacy of the original. Plus he and our Osiris have already spent enough time with each other, that even if Saint's memories are somewhat different, it wasn't until NOW that this was made aware of, either the Conductor messed with his memories, or they are a little different, but enough is still the same, and our Osiris and the new Saint have already spent enough time together to fall back into a relationship they were both happy with till now.
One bit I'm slightly surprised I've not seen brought up is this part of the Sundial Lore entry:
[spaced just in case someone considers this spoilery for whatever reason]
--------
Drifter walked to the central spire and put his ear up against it. “This core…” he said, leaning close. His eyes darted back to Osiris. “It’s whispering.”
Osiris’s expression didn’t change; his arms didn’t uncross. “We’ll seal the core away. I understand the ramifications.”
“Good luck keeping that contained. Not something I would bargain with, hotshot.” Drifter stood up and beckoned his Ghost with two fingers. It floated earthward and unleashed a holographic array of statistics along the Sundial deck.
--------
It was talked about during the Season of Dawn that the Sundial's core might have some connection to the ahamkara, so if true, then Saint-14 being not quite "our" Saint would be the exact sort of wish twisting I'd expect.
You know who else whispers things to people and has a connection to Osiris? Nezarec. (Not that I think Osiris would've had any reason to seek out some Nezquik for the Sundial, given this happened before Plunder, but maybe someone else knows something I don't.)
He totally pet cemeteried saint
Long story short, this is OUR Saint, but also NOT our Saint.
I'll wager this and this is my theory. The Saint we see back in Curse of Osiris is this one, the very same one that we saved. Why is this the case? The Perfect Paradox. Our Saint didn't recognize this gun at first, but the lore entry for it states that this gun was inspired by the very same guardian that saved him, being us. So at some point, Saint finds out his true identity and rather than succumbing to the madness of not being the Saint from this timeline, he instead chooses to be the Saint he wants to be, saving the very people he cared about, which could possibly explain how he ended up in Mercury in that dark future; probably some uber powerful Vex that could warp time itself, Saint decided to drag that uber Vex into a doomed timeline completely cut off from the Vexnet. He gave his entire light to make a last stand against the Vex, fighting until the very end, then at some point we find him in that doomed timeline, get the Perfect Paradox blueprint, build it, use the Sundial to find him, and give it to him.
I'm only guessing here because all the pieces still have to come into place: Saint's grave in that dark future, getting the Perfect Paradox, finding Saint through the Sundial, and giving it to him... Thus creating the PERFECT PARADOX.
Saint will always die, but also live again.
This or something similar is most likely. Its a fairly common trope in sci-fi with time travel shenanigans. Star Trek calls it a closed loop paradox. A causes B which causes C which causes A.
It's not a paradox for nothing. Also I do not believe the dead Saint is real because we are told so many times Vex can't simulate Guardians because the Light and anything paracausal is too unpredictable; and if they could've replicated a Guardian, how come they haven't done that for other Guardians? And if it's because they had Saint there and could study him, how come they haven't done that for us, who are basically fighting them every weekend? Maybe they just simulated a human with Saint traits and maybe a very super hyper strength, but causal after all, and that's how they managed to find a way to approximate a strategy against him
@biancasawbridgeworth1386 the dead saint is absolutely real. But it was just his corpse, drained of light by the Martyr Mind. The Perfect Paradox lore tab stated that he killed the mind, but not before it had struck a fatal wound. The Vex simply entombed him inside the Forest out of reverence for the sheer plight he was on them.
Perfect Paradox is also given to us in Season of Dawn when we complete a quest and we spacifically get Saint-14s Perfect Paradox this is the one we hand him in the mission.
The mind that makes him mortal has a name and a specific purpose, which was to drain him of his light and it does so
sounds like saint and osiris are having a discord convo
Osiris' Echoes are not the same as his Reflections! Reflections are his Light, and they are what he used at Six Fronts. He says in 'Maintenance Operations Log 30037' lore:
Saint - [u.1:12] If I can find the time, yes. Not all of us conjure Echoes.
Osiris - [u.2:12] Reflections, Saint. I have no need for Echoes anymore.
Saint - [u.1:13] What do you mean? What’s the difference?
Osiris - [u.2:13] One is a manifestation of Light. The other… reserved for Taken Kings. Better suited for traversing the Sundial because of what lies at its core.
The implication being they are related to the Echoes that Oryx used which is definitely not an ability of the Light.
As someone mentioned, either Saints memories are being messed with or Osiris memories are off. I say Osiris is off because of all his echoes he released. Is it possible those echoes inherited memories from those other timelines and gave them to Osiris?
@@jkurtz010 Or #3: Saint really is a different Saint cuz he asked Osiris a question and he answered, it doesn’t match with what Saint remembers.
his echoes aren't from other timelines, and they never interacted with saint when they were in the sundial, so no
@@quandaliusdinglus3374 I know they aren't from other times. They were exploring timelines that were similar to ours. Anime reference. Think Naruto and his shadow clones. Osiris echoes learned info which bled into his own memories. That's not even discussing what savathun did to his brain. Or the nezarec tea
I do think there's some memory tampering shenanigans at play but in the semitone shift lore tab Im completely certain its the exact moment osiris is describing
It’s really cool that we’re going back thematically to the original lore surrounding the Vex. Questions to do with the nature of reality, simulations, are the people who are mathematically the same actually the same? What’s really interesting is Saint keeps referring to himself as a “Simulation.” We know he’s not a Vex simulation, as he’s a Lightbearer and we pulled him out of a different timeline.
The Conductor has planted the idea that a simulation is no different than what the Saint is: something out of place, a variable, loose and to be disregarded. It’s made Saint question his fundamental reality. So good. This is how you do a Vex story.
After seeing the cutscene about his hopes and dreams.... yeah hes totally on the chopping block
Sadly no. Hes the trials vendor and not easily replaced and we spent a whole season saving him and then mending the wounds of time. All that time and effort for him to die? No fuck that
He never left the block 😂
@@Ghost_Toast5000 if they kill this version of Saint in anyway I will genuinely not give a fuck about anything story related. Season of Dawn was literally my first time playing I love Saint 😭😭
@@thecastleofnothing7074 That and the whole "bury your gays trope" would be so FUCKING dumb to lose him, least not a season man , not saint
@@Crocthunderhey now I'm fine with the gay tropes. I see no issues with them. Like I'm fine with him and Osiris being romantic partners.
Given Brother Vance was attacked by a corrupted echo of himself within the infinite forest it doesn’t surprise me at all that Osiris’s echo got corrupted,also I wonder what Vance is up to nowadays. 🤔
He sealed himself inside the infinite forest
@@verakoo6187 what if we have to save him the same way we did with saint? (i only played season of arrivals onwards)
@@iamboringvideos6832 the same problem discussed in this video would apply. Ship of Theesus but with people
@@e.tthee-th0t284 im not sure im getting what you mean?
@@iamboringvideos6832 ship of theesus is a vesse lthat needed repairs (in this case repairs would be saving) and it got new parts. This continued over and over again until the ships entireity had been changed and not 1 part was from the original.
Saint 14 is currently experiencing this but instead of parts being only physical, he also has different memories. If we did save Vance using the sundial, the same outcome could occur.
Honestly i think the did a FANTASTIC job with that last audio message, because as someone whos fav season is Dawn, realising that i might have fucked up and that osiris didnt think this all through really just sunk into me, did i help just kidnap a saint that isnt exactly ours? Is this my fault aswell? First time the game has made ME feel like a reason smth bad happened, maybe lightfall but that felt like way less of a gut punch for me personally.
(this is all however under the presumption that the conductor didnt like screw up saints memories, but i would much rather she didnt, that we did take a different saint and that in time he comes to accept himself and not see himself as like he says "a copy of a copy of a copy".)
Small correction about Osiris’s Echoes:
His Echoes in the Sundial are actually different from his Reflections we see in CoO. In the weblore, Osiris states that Echoes are indeed different, and more similar to the power of Oryx, and better for use with the Sundial given what lies at its core. We still don’t know what exactly was at its core, but we do know it whispered…
Aww, I really wanted to clip the section with him spiralling over Marathon: Infinity.
He could be a time variant. We did see a version of his body in Curse of Osiris. I’m guessing Bungie is going for a Loki route for Saint?
I mean, Elsie isn't our timeline's Elsie but she is our Elsie. Same goes for Saint.
@@Lrbearclaw wait isn't she though? is 2014 vanilla Destiny 1 campaign her timeline or did Beyond Light retcon that? we didn't change timelines between D1 and D2.
@@raccoonomicon It's not that there was a timeline split it's that she's always been living multiple timelines. Entering the timeline somewhere after the collapse and leaving the timeline somewhere around now actually. Though every timeline before this one ended in the final shape, or some version of a total collapse of humanity and the traveler dead or gone.
20:27 Discord notification made me jump (and 20:45)
thought there was something off as I checked my Discord program. XD
Osiris and Saint were talking over discord canonically
I remember Sagira saying that Osiris made his echoes using technology from the Infinite Forest. They were basically simulations of him IIRC.
I love that there's many obvious answers for this specific problem (this is this timeline's Saint, this is not this timeline's Saint), but also there's the option of "You are not this timeline's Saint, but you were destined to have a second chance on this timeline."
Because if the Vex can calculate infinite possibilities in the future, one of those could perfectly be "Saint comes from another timeline to continue the fight", and that would not make him an error, his presence would be intended, would be valid.
(Also, that phrase about "something left from a broken timeline"...... my guy, you should have a word with Elsie xDDD)
I assumed from the start that he was a variant. Back in Season 9, He didn’t recognize his own gun, Perfect Paradox, because it prolly belonged to our Saint.
To be fair, the lore did state that he first got that gun from us. I just assumed it was that.
yeah this. the paradox is that we show up, save saint, give him the gun and then inspire him. so he becomes a legend and in the future inspires us, so we go out and do destiny stuff and then eventually get this gun, in which we then go back in time and show up...
@@Fishbowl-fd6soagreed he didn’t recognise it because we built it for him and that’s how he got it hence the name perfect paradox.
Yeah the reason he didn't recognize the gun is because we traveled back in time and gave him perfect paradox. The moment we gave it to him was when he first got the gun. That's why the gun is called perfect paradox, we only have the shotgun because it is saint's gun, but saint 14 only has the gun because we went back to give it to him.
This isn’t even the first timeline story we’ve encountered in Destiny. Elsie and her struggle to help us learn of Stasis and to stop her sister Ana from being consumed by it has happened during Beyond Light. I would love to see an exchange with Elsie and Saint about what it’s like to jump timelines, by choice or not. Keep up the awesome work 🙏
Only part I'm confused about is that the Saint we saved is the one that we met. We gave him the Perfect Paradox and Osiris remembers him talking about the guardian that gave him hope along with the shotgun.
I guess that's supposed to be the point though. Even though we got a Saint that is mathematically as close as possible, he's still not identical. That's why these major events match, but it's the absolutely miniscule details like the love confession that don't line up. Like, the original and this one could've both fought at Six Fronts, both held the same front, both used the Perfect Paradox, both had the same kill count, but for one single moment, where one punched a dreg, the other shot the same dreg. That's how miniscule the differences are. But for things like the love confession, it's a miniscule difference that matters to Saint. My only question is how did none of these moments come up in conversation between them in the years since we rescued him?
That’s what I wonder when time travel is involved: Is the character still the same character or are they from a different timeline?
depends on the type, multiversal time travel like destiny no they're technically not, but single-versal yes
@@quandaliusdinglus3374 Yes, it all depends on exactly what type of time travel we did in Dawn. Did we simply save A Saint from another timeline or at least from a version of his death in the Infinite Forest as the Vex you can never be too certain how much temporal influence they have. Or did we simply change the outcome of our present timeline and cause a temporal shift where events still played out the same for everythign outside the Infinite Forest. Another thing to consider is that we did all this WHILE the Reds were fuckign around with timelines trying to change the outcome of the Red War in the Psion sister's favor. We don't know the full effect their fuckign around with time may have had. But it's not important whether we simply saved another Saint, or changed history so OUR Saint did live, or whether the memory difference may just be the Conductor fucking around with us, what matters is that HE is the Saint who came back to OUR Osiris. HE is the Saint who's resumed a relationship with Osiris, and they've mostly been happy together aside from a few ups and downs.
23:05
I don’t have time to explain why I don’t have time to explain moment Byf😂
I have never clicked on a video notification so fast! SAINT 14 LORE FAV TITAN LORE LETS GO!!
Saint is absolutely ours, we changed our own timeline to save him.
But not entirely Osiris's
I thought the entire point of season of dawn was that we pulled another Saint out of a different timeline, making it obviously not the original one
but then the other Saint is a simulation and the Vex don’t know how to simulate paracasual powers
@@alexbg9287 but now they do. With the Echo
@@alexbg9287 Seeing as the echo is a paracausal power the vex now control it means the vex are able to predict paracausality, they are much more powerful now.
Just imagine if Atheon had the echo... that would be terrifying.
@@horrorpleb249 Every paracausal thing has it`s own paracausal signature. To kill Saint, they had to crack his paracausal signature. With that logic the Echo must have it`s own paracausal signature. Means they still can`t predict us and therefore will not beat us.
@@robbay8610 yes, but we saved him before the Vex got Echo
Byf mentioned Marathon Infinity, I’m obligated to ask him to explain it now
I daresay it's more memory manipulation than a different timeline, the fact that Saint can use the light means that either we have a large problem with the vex that we need to deal with, or Saint is very real
My glimmer is on manipulation
My boy is suffering right now
And it is not ok
Conductor is 100% MSUND12. The conductor, Maya last times were spent in the conductor chair.
And S14 definitely sounds like we pulled the wrong one out
SPOILERS FOR ACT II AND POSSIBLY ACT III
While it’s not confirmed to be MSUND-12, the Conductor is Maya Sundaresh in the body of Lakshmi, it’s probable we’ll get lore explaining how Maya got ahold of the echo and how she’s using Lakshmi’s body
Is anyone asking why the Conductor is targeting Saint? What is it adopt him that can frustrate her grand plan? Or is it all a distraction from what is actually happening?
Theory: If the Veil acts as a kind of psychic imprint of the universe then Saint's return could not be meshing right. If the Conductor is using Darkness to take control of things then perhaps Saint being a time anomaly could give him some inherent resistance to their control. It'd be like trying to shove a square peg into a round hole. They wouldn't have the right imprint of him.
This is a bit of a tangential topic, but what if through meddling in the corridors of time, we discover a timeline where a variant Sagira has lost her Osiris, or never found him, or some other vex shenanigans. And somehow this alternate Sagira meets our lightless Osiris, and this is how our Osiris gets his light back. That could potentially open up some significant repercussions including using Osiris’ echoes to help confirm that this is the real Saint? Idk, time travel and alternate realities are usually a lazy writing tool, but this is quite intriguing.
Considering that he’s been around for 3 years and literally no one was like “ohh he seems different” or whatnot tells me that this saint is our timeline saint
Season of dawn is my favorite season ever and had so much interesting lore (and is what got me into lore)
It was my first full season and I had played curse of Osiris just before it
So seeing dead saint and unlocking perfect paradox
Reading the lore then seeing the paradox unfold as we give it to and save saint literally the next week was just
Unspeakably amazing and I love these characters
And being a warlock main and knowing Osiriss lore before hand too was amazing and it was so cool to do something even the greatest warlock in history couldn’t
A part of me wants to be like Saint stop tripping. None of us are real, we've all died and been brought back a thousand times. Every single guardian is a copy of a copy of a copy. Especially if you're an exo. But also I kinda get it. He feels out of place, out of time. The Conductor basically vibe checked him by saying he was supposed to die in our timeline
I'm thinking the Conductor is either messing with Saint's memory, or either Osiris or Saint have misremembered the moment they spoke about. From different perspectives it very well could've been the same, Saint asking for something small could be Osiris giving him that report, and Saint remembering Osiris not hesitating could've been Osiris absentmindedly responding and just not remembering it now.
Damn, I was really hoping we would go back to Venus, but I think you've convinced me about the Corridor's of Time.
6:27 Cheeky, Bungo - I notice that Echo hastened to leave before he could see a most familiar Guardian rush in to help.
Well, he's essentially just a round-about version of what we ALREADY experience as Guardians. When Ghost rezzes us, they pull a template of our existence from parallel timelines. If we're still us, Saint is still Saint.
it's a case of "I think therefore I am" probably. like there's a possibility that he is our original boy that we just saved (which. is how it happened. we saved an earlier Saint) so he's our boy
I didn't really think it was a problem until this weeks radio message.... that's deep.
I haven’t watched the video yet, so if it’s in the video, I apologize; but, is anyone talking about how Saint-14 speaking at the future funeral in the corridors of time could be Saint-14 giving a eulogy for himself? His real self?
Anyone else catch that in Osiris's version saint said "I love you" like he had already said it a 1,000 times.
Sounds to me that saint has the original and osiris has the story after Saint has already been through the timeline many times. I wouldn't be surprized if it was saint 14 that ended up going back with his shotgun and reliving everything to change our timeline, which eventually changed Osiris's story.
The corridors of time would be a badass dungeon location
From what I've gathered, this is a Saint from another timeline similar to how Elsie is from the Dark Future. And things being pushed and pulled thru time are fairly common. I mean, the lore behind Perfect Paradox says the gun has no original creator. And I feel like a coversation between Elsie and Saint maybe what he needs right now.
Alternatively, The Conductor could also be refering to Saint literally being a copy of a copy of a copy in reguards to him being an Exo. Of which, considering the naming conventions of Exos, he's been reset/ rebooted at least 14 times
I don't now why, but your analysis made me think of the song "Take Me Back" from the musical Black Friday. Specifically the verse "The universe is infinite, and it's definite. There's an alternate reality, where it's only you an me. Take me back in time to love you."
It's definitely a different Saint.... I mean for starters, you didn't rescue Saint, I did.
Love ya Bfy, thanks for the awesome video.
Kinda surprised no has, that i have seen at least, mentioned that this Saint-14 doesn't describe the same Exo dream, that to my knowledge, every other Exo has had of the DSC being a cold wasteland with them fighting people from their memories and an unknown threat they cannot describe whereas Saint says he sees golden fields in his Exo dream. It's a voiceline you can hear while standing by him as an Exo I'm pretty sure
I suspect Perfect Paradox is going to come back into play, because if memory serves, that was the common thread that allowed us to come riding to the rescue. We gave Saint-14 the Perfect Paradox after we saved him from the Fallen (and Ghost explicitly checked that history hadn't changed afterwards, meaning we got the right one then), and then we were able to track that Perfect Paradox through the Corridors of Time to his encounter with Agioktis. Ergo, we got the right one both times, because we were tracking the unique identifier we gave to the right one the first time.
Even if he's from a different timeline, he's still our homie. I still have chills up my spine when I listen to his famous monologue from back in season of Dawn.
Since you mentioned Ergo Sum- I feel as if they already handled the whole "we died wielding this sword thing" with Cayde's sacrifice. Had Cayde not sacrificed himself for Ghost, we very likely could have succumbed to injuries from the Witness battle. Cayde choosing his own fate and letting us live essentially averted our death in the Corridors of Time, at least imo.
I cannot tell you how excited I was to read one of the new lore books and see that it was about the Qugu. My Destiny nerd brain is so happy about that (I know its not brand new with Act 2 but I had taken a month or two break since finishing Final shape)
Sorry, are they not new? I wasn't aware of that at all and couldn't find anything on ishtar-collective either. (BTW, while they weren't in the API as of last week, you could read all three entries by finishing the Act 1 quest on three characters--probably a bug.)
The conductor is definitely maya, probably in exo/vex hybrid form.
I remember when getting the original perfect paradox and seeing how the vex essentially honored him with a grave. If the corridors are to be believed and understood for what they are, that saint that was buried by the vex is the same one.
We saved that saint from the fallen and inspired him, we gave him the perfect pardox, we tracked the moment where he was supposed to be defeated and then he found his way out.
Hes infamous to the vex more so than to the fallen. It would only make sense for the conductor and vex to want to get him out of the equation. And maya had plenty of time experimenting with the veil and we understanding that the darkness holds memories so it would make sense for the conductor to be able to alter them.
Given the existence of Perfect Paradox, I feel like this was always OUR Saint-14. It's existence demands that in some way, this Saint is the one from this timeline.
The Conductor fed him false memories from other timelines. Both through the meddling of the Sundial and the the nature of the Vex themselves.
i never actually realized (or forgot) osiris used his echoes outside of mercury, my impression was that it was a power he possessed because of his mastery of the infinite forest and the sundial that both existed within the vex network on mercury, and thus he would've lost it when we lost mercury. since he used it in other places it was more likely a light power
A Pathways/Marathon lore deep dive from Byf would be great lmao
"I know who are you. You are Destiny"
20:27
Lol, the discord ping is picked up by the screen.
1:13 "confused? Good"
My theory is that this IS our Saint, but he’s not the one that was altered. Our timeline was. The butterfly effect is a crazy thing. When we saved Saint from the fallen attack, while major plot points still happened, they may have been enough to alter other aspects of his life. Including his early interactions with Osiris. My knowledge of this particular lore is shaky, but I still find it plausible.
I'm just kinda shocked nobody's tried to tap Elsie Bray's expertise on this stuff. (Maybe they just didn't wanna pay the VA? Maybe I missed a lore blurb?)
This storyline reminds me of the book Dark Matter. Once a person leaves their original timeline, how can they ever be sure to get back if there is an infinite amount of near parallel timelines. The best they can do is find one as close to their original as possible. There is almost no chance of making it back to the true original timeline.
20:27 Damn who gave Failsafe access to Discord? We're trying to listen to a recollection of a love confession here!
I will say, act 2 lore wise, is getting SO MUCH BETTER AND DEEPER AND MORE STORY DRIVEN than act 1 did. I love act 2 so far. Act 1 was fun but act 2 just takes everything to another level in everything. Thanks byf for this because i have been confused about the some of the lore of act 2 lol
I think the Saint we know is the Saint who first entered the Infinite Forest. When we entered the Corridors of Time, we were following temporal coordinates embedded within the Perfect Paradox. We first found Saint at his low point, facing off House Rain, gifted him the Perfect Paradox and showed him the City in our time. The second coordinate set brought us to the point when the Martyr Mind had siphoned Saint's Light, but before Saint could die; Our intervention returned Saint's Light to him, allowing him to fight his way out of the Infinite Forest.
I do think that his Saint is the same Saint from our time line. The Saint that we found that was long dead was placed there in order for Osiris to give up his search. The Conductor said the things that were said to Saint to plant that seed of doubt into his mind. A seed that would grow, driving a wedge between him and Osiris. Left unchecked that doubt would do what the Vex alone could not.
I'm a sucker for happy endings so I'm willing to bet that he's definitely the real Saint; I can't be certain about the discrepancy between his account of their first "I love you"s (Osiris's account can be found on the seasonal ship) but I'm of a like mind with some people that Perfect Paradox *had* to have led us to *our* timeline's Saint-14. There's a part of me that wonders if the conductor's wording, "copy of a copy of a copy" may be slightly misleading and somehow referring to how pre-rez Saint would've been reset 14 times? Hard to say, maybe I'm just chasing a rabbit.
If I remember correctly in the Cordoors of Time it said that the Perfect Paradox was transmitting (emitting?) coordinates. Which we followed and it lead to Sant-14.
Sooo remember like two weeks ago we got that conversation between Saint and Osiris and Saint mentioned “the moment we both knew,” and Osiris shook him off. And we all took that as Osiris being embarrassed about discussing their love on an open channel? What if Osiris has known from the beginning that this wasn’t exactly his Saint and has been avoiding discussing the past because he doesn’t care and didn’t want Saint to do exactly what he’s doing?
Saint-14 was brought back with Ahamkara Wish Magic.
Change my mind.
(Check that Sundial Core. It was whispering back then, and even Drifter found it weird.)
Osiris made a mistake. Trying to trace _Saint's_ timeline made it significantly harder to find the Saint of *this timeline.*
Osiris should have traced *his own timeline,* to the last meeting he had with Saint, and then had his echoes follow that Saint until his Final Death.
...But that might not have been an option, I suppose.
He traced Saint to the moment he fought the Martyr mind in the Infinite Forest. That’s pretty distinct
I assumed the reason that was out of the options is probably because the corridors of time only allow your to peer through other timelines rather than your own?
I could be wrong on that but tbh when I played season of dawn I always assumed we were traveling to other timelines to save saint, I never really imagined we'd travel back in time in our own timeline but instead travel to a timeline that mirrored our own.
Heck even Osiris stated that he was peering through timelines that mirrored our own, the vex even use timeline analyses to search for the perfect timeline in which the vex successfully destroyed the sun (Panoptes intervention in which we managed to defeat it thanks to Osiris's help)
I am curious as to why Saint emerged from the Corridors of Time in our timeline if it wasn’t our Saint-would there not be infinite exits to other timelines, with infinite versions of Osiris and our guardians hunting for Saint as well?
A thing to remember is that Osiris told us that he Saint had mentioned he met us on mercury. We definitely changed our own history in that meeting.
Cmon, we've known about this since we went into the corridors of time to rescue Saint. I was always under the impression that we didn't pull Saint from the past, but rather from a different timeline, or Vex simulation in this case.
When saint was first rescued, I had thoughts that he may have been a simulation/ variant from another reality.
I understand how that would worry one, but he wields the light all the same
Great job Byf. I would love to visit the corridors of time as I came into the game much later.
It is worth noting that the two versions of the story told by Osiris and Saint are not mutually exclusive. Memory is a funny thing and it can play tricks on you. I personally notice that they both remember the first time they heard the other say they loved them. I also noticed that Osiris got heated as Saint said "my Osiris" sounding like he already has dismissed Osiris as another version. It is quite possible that Osiris also remembers the story Saint told but he got so upset that it didn't occur to him to tell Saint that.
As a bit more copium I keep coming back to this idea that, as I recall, saint in our timeline talked about us before we existed. Our actions in the corridors were already accounted for in our timeline. So this should also extend to our saving Saint. But we find Saints grave. So what gives? Well my cope is that the grave is not from our timeline but a different timeline and its existence is more a reaction to our expectation.
Also it is possible that Osiris in the cut scenes here is misunderstanding something. He was looking for a Saint he could save by looking through our timeline. In the clip it is hinted that he assumes we found another Saint in a different timeline. But here is the thing: That particular Saint never existed as we already saved him. And he never thought to look for Saint after his "Death" so he couldn't find him wandering the Vex simulation.
He's the only Saint-14 I've ever known...
For a long time I had a for funzies theory that the other person the Exo Stranger/Elsie was taking to was an alternate timeline Sagira, the first Sagira that lost her Osiris in the D1 universe timeline, and Destiny 2 is another timeline. She knew where we'll be to speak with us, pop up and cause us to pause so we don't enter/go somewhere a few minutes too early that resulted in a failed outcome in another timeline.
Sagira behind the scenes has been helping Elsie to keep Osiris kicking, staying hidden because she's probably tried before and this Osiris isn't her Osiris. She tried to "incarnate" a past Osiris during the Golden age that failed and it didn't work right. She might have tried a few times and realized it couldn't work with her. Then our timeline Traveler released the Ghosts and our Sagira found and resurrected him properly with no memory of the failed attempt. Events played a bit differently for Osiris and Saint because of that interference.
Again, this just for fun, based on what I think I remember of things in-game and building a "what if..?" Scenario.
This situation involving Saint feels very similar to Gamora's situation in Guardians of the Galaxy Volume 3. Just as what is being alleged with Saint, Gamora originally died during the events of Infinity War, and a different Gamora was pulled through time from 2014 (in the very beginning of GotG Volume 1), to the present taking place during Endgame, resulting in this Gamora taking the dead Gamora's place in the main timeline (and there being a timeline in which Thanos and his forces just straight up vanished, but that's besides the point). As a result, this version of Gamora never joined the Guardians, never fell in love with Peter Quill/Starlord, and regarded him like a stranger, forcing the two of them to go their separate ways. The new Gamora had been plucked from time too soon to have formed any connection to Starboard.
Saint remembering events differently could be an indication that he is in fact a different version, but this could also be psychological manipulation by the Conductor planting false memories in order to sow internal chaos within Saint and promote division between Saint and Osiris. It wouldn't be too hard to imagine Saint being the victim of brainwashing and having memories be altered, not so drastically to be completely different, but subtle enough to make Saint feel like he is not himself. The Conductor's presence represents a fundamental shift in how the Vex operate and behave. It wouldn't be difficult to envision lies, deception and gaslighting now being tools of the Vex.
Given that we intervened to save Saint from the Martyr Mind, the gap in time is nonexistent for it to be a situation similar to Gamora's, meaning that if this Saint isn't OUR Saint and he is from a different timeline, the differences are so minuscule because the larger events unfolded exactly the same to lead Saint to Mercury, to that confrontation with the Martyr Mind (like an episode of Rick and Morty where they vacate one timeline and go to a different one where the only noticeable difference is that a single word is pronounced differently). However, I do think brainwashing and memory alteration are equally valid explanations for Saint's identity crisis, making the Conductor even more of a threat.
I was thinking "sure, we had an entire season about saving Saint from TIME but we really just.... let it go after."
Glad its coming up again.
My thoughts on this situation are that the two questions are entirely separate.
Is Saint likely from a different timeline? Probably (but I am NOT discounting the possibility that there's manipulation going on, either from the Conductor or the Echo generally).
Is Saint real? Ignoring the obvious point that he can wield the Light, that's something only he can define for himself. Osiris, the Vanguard, us, we all can show him all the evidence for or against his "realness", but the only one that can actually determine that is Saint.
These two chased each other for hundreds (I think?) of years, across literal space and time. If this is headed for an unsavory ending I’ll be heartbroken. Amazing story though I’m glad it’s getting its time in the light!
i think, personally, we need to view these two seemingly separate -- yet connected chronologically -- events of the conductor having obtained the echo and subsequently twisting saint into believing he is someone he isnt as something that may have been expected or planned. i think its pretty telling the things saint is saying would possibly be something a certain msund12 would be saying were the roles reversed, especially since we are dealing with an entity that, until recently, we assumed was one of some two hundred entities (not unlike osiris' reflections) floating around in the vex network. i dont believe maya sunderesh predicted the echo having been a part of her plan, but i do think whichever part of maya/reflection of maya we are dealing with was searching for something sufficiently powerful enough to command the vex like we're seeing now, and using saint is a part of that.
saint is an incredibly powerful and feared enemy of the vex. they built an ossuary for him and revered him for his destruction over the countless frames and minds he's destroyed. if the vex have ANY sort of data or simulations relating to one singular guardian besides ourselves, it would be him, and it would be silly to think this was not something maya stumbled onto while seeking an answer to her "query". this may be the twelfth iteration of maya that is seeking answers to the questions saint is now voicing, and as a way to both cripple our movements against the vex and perhaps seek revenge on a victim that has destroyed so many vex that maya considers to be humanity's future, she's inflicted these same doubts on saint to hinder our progress against her and her "query".
i think the saint we have IS the saint from our timeline. we connected a loop that had previously been closed by saving him and providing him with his shotgun. and though it may be he's a different saint from an altogether different timeline, that hasnt stopped characters like elsie from building bonds and relationships in OUR timeline, and perhaps the things saint is experiencing are the memories of a different saint implanted by maya/msund12/the conductor to inflict the same pain she has felt since being released into the vex network. elsie is a prime example of timelines not being too effected by people moving between them, or by that same person divulging information from separate timelines. maya/msund12/the conductor doing this to saint would be a great way for her to gain leverage in the wake of the witness' defeat and the traveler's stretch of silence as it heals, and a great way to leverage the vex against us with a power we dont understand (the echo) to reach her goals.
theres too much evidence and information pointing to saint being our own. he may be doubting himself and pushing osiris away, but i believe that was done purposefully, and maya/msund12/the conductor had this in mind since she began searching for answers to her query. saint is also an exo, and with the addition of clarity into exo systems, he is a prime target for maya to "take" and use as a pawn of her own -- he isnt someone we would just cut down blindly as he means something both to us and osiris, nevermind the last city who adore him and the countless friends and allies he's made over his lifetime. ESPECIALLY the ones since he returned from the infinite forest. saint is practically immutable and invulnerable to any action we would take against him should he turn against us, and maya probably knows that more than anyone, given the information she has access to from the vex hive mind.
anyway -- thank you for these morsels to chew on! i cant wait to see your take on things as they unfold. i enjoy your videos even though ive been a lurker for most of them. keep up the wonderful work and take a break if needed!!
I'm calling time shenanigans. I think that both versions of that confession exists it our main timeline. That bit where it was as if saint had said the words multiple time stuck with me, maybe it was because he already did.
I noticed that this point in our history seems influenced by Black Sabbaths Iron Man. “When he travels time for the future of mankind”
Also notice that Osiris uses the Blade of Dawn freely as he freely draws blade and cuts down his foes.
You should get a book at the end of your “weekly grind”
I may have misheard or misunderstood it but when I heard the devs say, somewhere into destinys past I thought they meant the actual history of the world. Now it feels a bit ridiculous but since it seems some of our main characters are Saint and Osiris, both of them were there at Twilight Gap.
It would be fairly out there and despite having the crucible map there it would probs be too much on the seasonal resources to put us into one of the largest battles in the city’s history but a guy can dream.
My other thought was the Ishtar collective areas of Venus or the VoG again.
Saint will live at the end of this, as he was giving our eulogy when we die.
I noticed the coller around Saints neck that was controlling him is the Ishtar logo..
See, now I want to know the difference between Osiris's Echoes and his reflections. We saw the reflections used plenty of times through Curse of Osiris up to Season of the Worthy (if/when you get to the Lighthouse), but Osiris described his Echoes as something "more fit for Taken Kings ", if I'm remembering the line correctly.
Just something to make you go "hmm."
Well Saint-14 was infunce by us the Gardian, we even gave him a shotgun, a glimpse of the future, and then later rescuing him from the vex mind. So yeah, it's a good example of going back in time and steping on a butterfly effect. Or they both got their memories mixed up.
given the dialogue I've heard thus far, this is probably a different saint 14. getting back to the status quo we had when we first started the episode will be interesting. looking forward to the truth our lovebirds decide
Good job! I got 3 points on this subject. Multiple timelines are not "copies" This Saint-14 is a unique individual regardless of timeline. The accomplishments of this Saint-14 since being pulled to (back) our timeline is evidence of his legitimacy (he did solo Savathun!) Our Osiris saved him, not "his" Osiris (assuming they are different).
while there is a theory that its maya, I still believe that the conductor is an echo of osiris, the one that went rogue, narratively this would be a punch in the gut for the story they're telling with saint and osiris and it would make sense, years of wandering alternate timelines until it went insane
What if there are two Saint 14s, one that we rescued and one that we will have to rescue. Leading to the all too familiar Spider-Man meme.
As for Maya Sunderesh being the conductor...
I think she is indeed our antagonist or at least a variation of her is. MSUND12.
In a lore entry (I can't remember which but I think it was somehow tied to Veil containment) the group that connects to the Veil is referred to as a quoir with Maya acting as a Conductor.
We know Lakshmi-2 and Maya are likely the same person. Since Exos retain some of their past selves upon being rebooted, perhaps Lakshmi and Maya have become become one in the same only a hybrid of the two.
The future war cult had a prediction engine. The Cabal had a prediction engine last interacted with by MSUND12 and ODZOT.
Plus, a little side thing Cayde references a past self used to be one of her bodyguards.
Also, in the mission where we go to find Saint after the conductor makes her play, Ikora mentions how this feels similar to Lakshmi and the endless night. She obviously doesn't know who the conductor is yet but I think that's a sort if subtle hint at Maya's involvement
An old theory for Guardian resurrection was that Ghosts act as an anchor point for this timeline and pull their Guardians back into this reality every time they die from the one where they lived.
Timeline shenanigans! Let's go boys!
I'd never thought about it, but after you read the sundial entry, it came to mind that the conductor, given the term echo has been thrown around a lot recently, could be one of osiris' echoes, one that was trapped in the network after the events of curse of osiris or season of dawn, so it knows exactly what was done with saint, but that would leave the question of, did it come from the object from the traveller, or did it come out of the network to investigate, and was subsequently corrupted by the object.
So, upon going to the lighthouse a few moments ago, there's a projection of saint that disappears when you get closer. Very similar to Asher Mir in Node. AVALON. I'm not 100% sure that the projection was saint himself, but it was certainly something that you may find important.
Remember praedyth, kabr, and pahanin...and how they're paradoxes worked
We have only ever known this Saint-14 so regardless of whether or not he's the original(I think he is and has implanted or altered memories) he is Our Saint-14. I love him, he's one of my favorite characters and he deserves to be happy dammit!