The way Western lolita cling to 'the rules' has always made me wonder what Japanese lolita think of those 'rules' and the way we act about them. This is an alt fashion, but sometimes western lolita seem to be strictly against any creativity. I also loathe the idea of showing more skin being inherently more 'sexual'.
hi im mostly a follower of the eastern influences (china, japan) they really dont care about anything other than the sillhouette and even then they allow less poofy a-lines
Feels like not until recently western lolitas actually paid attention to the roots of the fashion and understood the rules are not unbreakable and it's just clothing and even the people who invented it broke them all the time.
The way I see it, ero lolita should be sexy in an avant-garde/fashion way rather than in the traditional sense (if you know what im getting at). To me, the purpose of ero lolita a deconstruction of traditional lolita elements, its about bring the inside out and questioning convenions. Lolita was always about questioning societal conventions, the moment that lolitas get to bogged down in conventions of their own is the moment the style dies.
@@SeRSi239lolita was started in response to societal pressures on japanese women to look attractive for a man but to not have a super loud style, to not be TOO eye catching. lolita says screw that & covers up the body while also being VERY loud. so, if lolitas start policing what others can and can’t wear, it kind of goes against the whole idea of the style. hope that helps !! ^^
The crazy thing is the same people in the community who hate Ero Lolita also always seem to idolize Mana Sama from Malice Mizer/Moi Meme Moitie and he's worn many co-ords back in the Gothic Lolita Bible which would be considered far too revealing by Western Lolita's standards today all the way back in the 90s.
Because they see him as a high status man and are maleworshipping. If he wasn’t in a yaoicore vkei band, those same people would tear him down otherwise. They’re weird about Mana and ignore female celebs in EGL like Misako Aoki, I wish they were more normal with him. As a Malice Mizer fan.
the "no shoulders exposed" "no knees" is so funny to me because I live in a tropical country. Theres a total of 0 people wearing a blouse under a dress here. the average temperature is 40celsius. showing skin is so normal, I will never understand how a knee can be sexualized lol
I don't think knees or shoulders have ever been a problem since you can see many summer outfits on old GLBs where people used no blouse under jsk or shorter skirts. Japan is also a very warm country in the summer. Ero lolita is more about styling than just showing body parts. I argue you don't even have to stray from a classic lolita sillhoutte to wear ero lolita.
@@e3ruisdead I was more into Lolita 10 years ago, and it was a really big deal back then. Like I know of communities that would "forget to invite" people that regularly didn't wear the fashion right. Like blouseless or no petticoat. Things have definitely chilled since then.
Someone once said that ero lolita should look like a Victoria or rococo royal stepped out while in the process of getting dressed, and I've always loved that. In terms of it "being for the male gaze", i can't agree with that because you can wear revealing clothing without wanting male attention. If men didn't exist, I'd wear way less clothing than I do now because I like it, it's got nothing to do with the male gaze or dressing for men.
I think ero lolita got unsavory rep because of the name and how people perceive it. Just like how they think about someone that use corset, harnesses , choker , garterbelts and something along those lines as "sexual". In my opinion all those items are just accesories, that sometimes it could elevate how some coord looks. Just like how ero lolita is just a more "scandalous" than other sub genre.
i remember slowly wearing a makeshift choker, a teal painted bell tried with a black ribbon around my neck and it genuinely made me feel safe bubbly and happy in a content manner that had me making noise whenever i was alone just vibing. Slowly, because i was trying to be cautious wearing it at school since i’m not used to doing that other than necklaces.
As a westerner who lived in Japan I can confirm it was pretty common even in 2008 to play around with the style guide in Harajuku. There was a lot of mixing with other subcultures, and in the summer it was not uncommon to see knees and shoulders. People seem to forget that it's not exactly about avoiding male attention; it's about dressing how you want without regard to male attention, like you don't even care what they think. Intimidatingly, unapologetically effeminate. Maybe for some folks it is about avoiding the male gaze, but that's still letting them control you in a way imo. In Japan there's still this double standard that you can try for a career but once you have a husband or even a boyfriend you're supposed to give it all up to be a wife, and lolita combats this by creating an image of pre-courtship (and therefore disinterest) and creating a woman's sphere free from male influence. Not to mention historically in Japan men actually avoid Lolitas, even ero, because it's seen as self absorbed and immature to not dress "appropriately" so it serves as repellent to the more traditional mindsets. Anyway I'm not Japanese but those were my observations while I lived in Tokyo and chatted with folks in Japan.
I think its important to realize that women (and femmes) get to be sexy *without* it having anything to do with the male gaze or being sexualized. We get to feel good, confident, and feminine in our own bodies and outfits. Sometimes, feeling "sexy" on our terms is super powerful, and it can be done both with and without showing a shoulder or part of a leg. It can be done with a corset. I think if it still fits the basic shape and elaments of Lolita, even if it breaks a rule, like lacy bloomers instead of a skirt, or a corset over a blouse, it's still Lolita. And to assume that anyone is strictly dressing for the attention of a man just because something may be interpreted as "sexy" is pretty gross. Because, lets be real. We're going to get sexualized no matter how "man repellant" we dress. We're just fighting it. It's kind of empowering to take something away from the male gaze and say, "this is MINE now." I say this as a pole dancer. I wear thongs and 8" heels to class and I feel sexy and there isn't a man in sight. I'm not doing it for men. I'm doing it because I feel strong and invincible. I claim my body and anything on it and everything I can do with it. Lolita achieves a similar thing- claiming femininity on our terms- but in a different direction. Both directions are valid, and that valididity can create space for an overlap.
I just have war flashbacks to a puritan lolita in my local community that screamed at everyone if their shoulders were exposed/skirts were slightly shorter than normal, and lost her mind when anyone was in a relationship because 'lolita cannot have sex!' it was actually insane. not to mention screeching about how everything that isn't classic or sweet lolita is costumey and fake
I don't get it: does this Puritan Lolita think people are having sex in their Lolita dresses? I could be wrong, but there's no way in hell anyone is gonna have sex in a $1200 OP from AP! (lol) Seriously, she needs to go look at photos in a Kera magazine and put together a kawaii coord because it's none of her business what any person does in their sex life!
I get how it may be problematic, but i really love the style and going outside of the norm. Personally i prefer more gothic accessories, shorter dresses or bloomers/shorts because of the shape and because im nonbinary so i just like to make the styles more androgynous sometimes.
I think what some lolitas don’t realize is that there is a difference between wearing “sexy” clothing and being sexual. Clothes aren’t inherently sexual, and shaming people for wearing - in all honesty - very modest clothing is just gross. Saying people’s clothing is “male gaze-y” or “looking for male attention” is pretty clear sl*t shaming. There’s also the problem of lolitas not wanting to be associated with the book Lolita. However, that book was about a child! Ero Lolita fashion doesn’t utilize as many childish elements, and the “eroticism” comes from the accessories and skin being shown. So the book associations don’t really work - if anything I’d say ero lolita looks less stereotypically childish than typical Lolita fashion. I’m goth, so maybe I’m not that tuned into the intricacies of lolita, but as a goth the pearl clutching is quite weird to me, since my subculture contains many of the elements of ero Lolita. Pretty tame compared to what I’ve seen (and wear).
also, I hate that any aspect of sexuality and eroticism is seen as "for men", there's so many sapphics in the lolita community and everytime I dress in a more exposed way, it is most certainly not for men, but other queer people and myself.
THIS!! I was wondering if I could say this considering the fact lolita WAS originally made with modesty in mind, but I DO really feel like it's good to have a space where you can be a tiny bit more erotic without being accussed of pandering to men!
@@Len..Kbut was it really made with modesty in mind in Japan? The fashion is flashy and attention-catching, and women were already expected to behave in a way that would make them more likely to get married and settle down and be "respectable." It was a rebellion against work uniforms and societal expectations. In the US, for instance, it often feels like more of a rebellion to be more covered up (i.e. more "modest") but the fashion isn't "modest" whatsoever if you look at the definition of the word.
@@christinafenendael9477 good point! I'll admit I don't really know much about the history and was just going off of the video wkdnwkskw But I think you may be right!
Wanting to look sexy doesn't necessarily mean you want sexual attention. Whenever I get dressed, I love looking at myself in the mirror and saying to myself, I look good! Because I'm dressing for myself and not anybody else. If men think I'm sexy, I don't care, but I'm sexy for me because I like looking good.
i feel like the name "ero lolita" is almost misleading to westerners because our modesty standards are very different. japan's culture is naturally more modest, while in the west we often joke about shoulders being viewed as "erotic" and things of that nature. it's not uncommon to see someone showing a lot of skin, so in comparison the concept of ero lolita almost feels tame to me. it's just a different way of expressing yourself while not adhering to such strict rules. the idea of bloomer shorts and showing shoulders being labeled erotic, or not having a certain skirt length or skirt shape almost seems ridiculous to fuss over. it may not be everyone's cup of tea but that's why it's a style of lolita. (or a subcategory or whatever you'd like to call it) it's still derivative of lolita fashion and includes lolita elements, just without such strict rules and elements you might not find in regular lolita. it doesn't seem to be NSFW by any means, and it seems reductive to write it off just because it does not adhere to strict modesty rules. maybe that's just my perspective as a westerner who is generally openminded and believes that fashion is ever-evolving, but who are we to deny lolitas in japan the ability to show skin that may be deemed "erotic" in their society? it's like reclaiming your body and dressing for yourself, even if people think it fits into the male gaze. lolita fashion has always been about dressing for yourself, and i think that's what matters. also, i think the people shown in the magazines look super cool ^_^ i dig the hoop skirts n all. def need to get my hands on some jfashion magazines
I think I generally have an issue with the whole discourse around “sexualizing”. I feel ero lolita is, well, erotic, but that doesn’t mean it’s sexualizing oneself or the fashion, it just shows you like being sexual. I don’t know how to describe it, but it makes a statement about owning your sexuality without involving other people and not doing it to arouse anyone
I feel like sometimes the hate the ero style gets may border on bodyshaming territory, as depending on the height, size, etc. of the person, the way coords sit on them may have elements commonly seen in ero even if they weren't going for that look, such as skirts looking shorter, some of the chest showing etc.
That's a really good point. I know I've been shamed for wearing tops that would never be considered "inappropriate" on someone else who didn't have such a large bust. I'm sure it's the same sometimes with this style. Having a large bust or bum both make tops & dresses shorter, as well as just being tall, of course.
my first ever coord was ero lolita (main outfit bought from 42lolita) and i wasnt aware that was what it was, i got flamed online for daring to call it lolita (the only problem was the skirt being very short) and it made me scared to mess up again... thanks for shedding light!!
yes! I find it interesting that other lolitas, members of an alternative fashion community, often use the exact same talking points when they criticise ero as really close-minded people who think that a person wearing bright makeup or unconventional clothes must be doing it for male attention. I understand feeling protective of the fashion and not liking the substyle because it doesn't have all the standard lolita elements, but the way the criticism often takes the angle of "this way of self expression is bad and wrong and you should stop and feel ashamed" is... something
Life lesson I have learned is that people really are the same. Doesn't matter if they are in a conservative religious strict Community versus a counterculture community. Both people, despite being in very different groups, usually have the very same mindset. Just replace a few words, and it's basically the same conversation. As a person who had experience with both.
@@2dents513 as someone who dabbles in lolita but has been in a bunch of other "alternative" communities throughout highschool (ie. scene, punk, 90's grunge, metalhead, etc.), gatekeeping is ironically more prevalent in alternative communities over "normal" ones due to the fear of their subculture being "tainted". this inadvertently causes people within that subculture to enforce rules over others even though it's sometimes pointless (which is even more ironic as most alternative communities are built over nonconformity)
1:12 "...to refuse to subscribe to the norm of mature femininity. To counter expectations that is placed on women to dress a certain way..." I kinda call Lolita as a movement. And precisely because it is a movement, it shouldn't stop moving, innovating, or experimenting. "The rules" imposed by some are something that lollita fashion is exactly created to counter. So I say, go on with your ero lolita! Make those stiff and stuck-up people seething mad! You put a covering from head to toe, the male gaze will find a way to sexualized it. The thing that is wrong in male gaze is not the clothings, it is the gaze itself.
So true. I grew up in Muslim country where women are expected to be covered head to toe, not just covered, it has to be extremely loose clothing and sometimes the face is also fully covered... Because eyes are considered 'inviting, alluring, seductive'. All because we are 'fully responsible' for men's criminal actions. But surprise surprise, hijab porn, are RIDICULOUSLY EXTREMELY POPULAR in Muslim countries 💀💀 The rate of sexual assault in my country is also significantly higher among hijab women. Men will ALWAYS sexualize women, no matter what. Also made worse with the rise of AI/deepfakes, fml.
I’m gonna be real, I’ve always found the western Lolita community to be a bit pretentious because of how much concern they have over “the rules” and it’s definitely turned me away from dressing in the style in a lot of ways. I wear slip dresses and corsets all the time and that doesn’t mean I’m wearing it to be sexualized. I think this sort of mentality gets very victim blamey in all honesty. Just because my cleavage is out doesn’t give people the right to make inappropriate comments about my body. Some days I want to look like a pretty princess and some days I want to look like a rockstar. I really wish I felt more welcome by the community because there are so many elements of Lolita fashion I love, but I feel deeply unwelcome from a lot of the stuff I’ve seen online about the community.
This is such a silly western argument, I've lived in Japan for 10 years and nobody here ever fights about this stuff. Lolita has been trending sexy for more than a decade, and there's always been sexual elements in it as far as I've seen. People policing fashion like it's some sort of club with bouncers who'll throw you out if you don't "follow the rules" really frustrate me. Wear what you enjoy, that's what most people in Japan do if they're into fashion at all.
Literally the way people police the fashion so much feels like whitewashing IMO. Like, Moite has done lolita photoshoots with kink furnature as set pieces but westerners will see someone wear a spiked heart choker and cry "wah that's too kinky!!! it's sexualizing the fashion!!!" and when told that JP brands have released worse will plug their ears and act like they know better what is and isn't lolita than the same JP brands these people fawn over.
is ero lolita a widely recognized substyle in Japan? I've gone looking on the japanese internet and found almost no mention of it on japanese language lolita guides, even ones that included niche sub styles. Maybe they use a different term. The only article I remember that came close to mentioning it said something along the lines of "the point of lolita is not to exude sexual appeal, although there are exceptions". To be clear I have no problem with the existence of the style. I really like the style if it's done well.
@itsalwayshalloweenexceptwh5118 The term itself is something westerners made up, however "ero lolita" does exist a lot even still in JP lolita communities. It's just seen as "lolita" still and not some super special controversial subtype. Most JP lolitas would just call most stuff the west labels as "ero lolita" a gothic coord. The fact "ero lolita" as a term exists in the west just comes from people throwing fits over stuff they don't like, which is really really tame compared to so much goth and punk and scene and raver fashion. Meanwhile from what I've seen from JP lolitas, they seem to have a similar mindset to western goths (actual goths, as in the goth subculture, not gothic lolitas) about fetishwear in fashion. If it fits within an outfit that when fully put together is appropriate for public and the person wearing it is behaving appropriately in public and not wearing it in places inappropriate to wear it? They don't care. Like legit Moitie has done so many brand photoshoots involving BDSM furnature and things that are very clearly actual BDSM gear and not just decorative if you're familiar with BDSM gear as set pieces, accessories, props, etc. even for when the models are in coords that wouldn't be called "ero" by westerners and no one cares because it's a promotional photoshoot for a brand targeted at adults and owned by vkei musician and kink/fetish elements are everywhere in vkei.
@@alistairrosehearts9734 This is very true in Japan's subculture fashion industry generally. BDSM as a fashion statement came into it with the goths at least as far back as the 80s, and there was a real BDSM boom in Japan during the 80s as well. BDSM styles being mixed with subculture fashion has ebbed and flowed, but it has never gone away in Japan. Today especially, you see tons of kinky BDSM-style stuff in Japanese fashion, including lolita. Brands like Amilige and ACDC Rag are full of collars, chains, spikes, and fetishistic anime art. Nobody bats an eye at it in the trendy areas of Tokyo, and even if you wear that stuff outside of Tokyo you're never going to get more than a few stares. It's far rarer out in the countryside, but generally speaking in the big cities, stuff that westerners would consider "kinky" or "fetishy" or "taboo" like that are pretty normal here. Nobody much cares.
@@itsalwayshalloweenexceptwh5118 Yeah I think the issue is that there's really no concept of "ero lolita" in Japan, it's just a matter of taste and preference. What westerners call "ero lolita" is really a specific reaction to our more puritanical roots and fetishizing, Japan generally isn't that concerned with those sorts of things. Because of that there's no real distinction between sexy and non-sexy lolita styles. Pretty much every subculture I've seen here has some outfits that are more revealing or sexy, some styles more than others, but it's all pretty much up to you. This has been true in lolita fashion as far back as I can remember.
Tbh i have virtually no knowledge of lolita fashion but i think as long as they feel comfortable and happy I don't think ero lolita should be attacked or anything. Looking sexier doesn't always mean you WANT sexual attention. As many people have pointed out , i think gatekeeping an alternative style is not very alternative and feels very silly to me
I feel like one big aspect of west vs Japan in the modesty discussion is that modesty isn't just about not showing skin in Japan. It's about not standing out too much and being subdue. Lolita in Japan, especially older street snaps, show shoulders or have shorter skirts and all these things the west sees as breaking the rules. But for a Japanese context being loud is what they use to subvert the modest expectations women are pressured into. Women are supposed to become wives and mothers who are docile and soft spoken. Lolita isn't about modesty in the way the west latched onto. Thou like you mentioned, in the west there's different expectations and the book so it makes sense it's not 1:1 in how breaking the expectations exists. I think the issue is how purist western Lolitas get about it. Some Lolita simply like the aesthetic and are focused on always trying to trump the male gaze. And Mana-sama was doing bdsm stuff on stage sometimes😂. Regardless of what is modest or not modest, as long as the person is incorporating ero elements for themselves thats what matters. Avoiding the male gaze should not soley diactate what people wear. Men will always gaze. Look at how Lolita wearers in Anime is so often fetishize even if not in fully lewd ways. Just like goth women in the west are super fetishized. I think with western Lolita communities, they are projecting the male gaze in a way that only reinforces exactly what Lolita and similar j fashion subcultures actively reject. For crying out loud look at momoko from kamikaze girls. She's not always wearing blouses and it's hardly sexualized or even ero. It's just summer and hot
I got accused of wearing ero because I wore shorter skirts with sheerer tights like okay. Honestly the purist gatekeepers absolutely killed the fashion for me
honestly, that part about questioning "sexiness" as a cry for male attention is the whole point. People act like everything a women does is for male attention, and this directly challenges that. In the end, we shouldn't have to dress a certain way for men to not feel entitled to us and finally leave us tf alone.
The fact that the very culture that founded lolita doesn't mind this aspect of the fashion is telling enough to me. The idea of something not being for the male gaze doesn't mean it has to be perfectly chaste and pure, imo. I think people are acting under the assumption that any time a woman does something remotely scandalous it's an attempt to get male attention and that it can never be done by herself for herself, that it can't be a reclaimation for herself. It's the same flaw in logic that assumes women wear makeup only for men and not ever because they simply enjoy it. Sexuality is wrong when it's treated as an obligation, but I don't think anyone should ever have their expression of it controlled regardless of if that expression is embracing sexuality or removing sexuality (outside of obvious scenarios like those directly involving children, lol)
It be an interesting topic, the use of crosses in prints worn by those who aren’t Christian. As a Catholic myself I don’t really care, but I’ve accepted they’ve been used for their aesthetic value for decades and it probably won’t go away anytime soon. But I know plenty of lolitas who are Christian and do not like their usage. However, I’m not particularly keen on dresses that are called things like “Catholic Nun OP” just seems inappropriate and too on the nose.
I love ero lolita! I always thought about it like a interpretation of lolita undergarments in a more "historical" way (ej:bloomers, corsets,crinolines,etc), but it also reminds a bit of showgirls. I think ero lolita is more seductive? Than sexual, they always show just a bit of skin while maintaining that air of elegance and modesty I associate with lolita. It is easy to cross the line because it requires certain balance, unlike other lolita substyles.
Personally I have always felt that while lolita is about modesty, it has always been about *reclaiming* modesty for yourself rather than being modest for societal reasons. Policing how modest other itas are just falls back into puritanism, and while I understand the urge to keep lolita fasion "pure", there is also not anything wrong with showing skin or creating more erotic outfits still inspired by lolita fashion. As a trans woman, I know other trans women who don't even dress ero lolita but more traditional lolita and still get harassed for dressing too sexually, because trans women are just viewed as inherently sexual. I think we just need to stay out of people's business and let them dress how they want. The whole point of lolita to me is dressing how you want, not how other people expect you to. So it's ironic that the western community has so many rules about what you are and aren't allowed to do.
If Lolita fashion is about not attracting the Male Gaze, then I feel like Ero Lolita would be reclaiming a woman's body and choice. It's still not about attracting the Male Gaze - it's still Lolita at its roots. Being found attractive doesn't automatically make one "sexual." Just like shibari isn't inherently sexual. Or ones naked body isn't inherently sexual. Saying that someone must dress or execute something "modestly" is very ... well, it feels very shamey. After all, what I find modest and what you find modest are sure to differ. After all, the whole push against SA Culture is that it's not clothes who hurt the victims. It's not the clothes that make someone sexy, but the ideals of the person viewing them. And why should someone be shamed out of wearing a certain style because some people are bad apples who would probably project their own ideals on to others anyway? Why are bloomers and corsets and short skirts "inherently" sexual and erotic? They're not; most people have just been conditioned to believe so through forced modesty.
A rule I’d put for myself that I know some other people follow is if I take something away to make it ero like let’s say showing my hoop skirt I make sure to cover up my legs and shoulders/arms completely so take what I removed and add more elsewhere to balance it out if that makes any sense!
Ero Lolita makes Lolita accessible. I live in the desert so wearing a ton of clothes that cover everything wouldn't be wise to do. I'm also disabled so I am much more vulnerable to overheating, fatigue, and pain so my clothes need to be "more simple/more ero" because of that. I love Lolita fashion but I could literally never do it with all the rules strictly held. Ero lolita is the only way I could ever be considered wearing lolita fashion due to this, which I always found to be rather ridiculous and privileged when there's so much negativity towards it. Also why wouldn't anyone also want to incorporate whatever else they like to wear into their coords? That's what fashion is all about, expressing yourself creatively through it. I understand why there's so much stigma around it all still sadly, but I hope that people can just.. let others be creative and love what they love. Putting too many rules and gatekeeping just defeats the purpose of expressing yourself differently.
at the end of the day, women/femmes/anyone historically oppressed by men, should always have a choice on how they style themselves. men dont want us to have choice and freedom, so expressing that freedom, to me, is the most feminist thing u can do. it would be different if people felt forced to be ero lolita for men, but i dont think that’s the case generally. if the style makes people feel empowered then thats awesome. but in any alt community there is a fear of posers corrupting the community somehow. we have to be more nuanced so that we don’t accidentally end up pushing away people who could otherwise find a lot of peace and comfort with us in our communities ❤
I had assumed, mainly based on manga, that lolita fashion was progressive and non-conformist, but this enforcement of modesty seems almost conservative. The implication that dressing in revealing clothes means you want to be sexualised is also concerning. There is nothing wrong with liking modest clothes, if it makes you safer, even better, but moralising modesty and policing what other women wear will only benefit the types of men most likely to sexualise you.
lolita is an alt fashion, im always kinda surprised how some ppl are strict about rules. i think the divide in understanding is between the lolitas that just dress normal outside of lolita and those who are into other alt fashion as well. ppl should just learn to have more fun with it i think.
I think we should just take "what men think" about the way we dress out of the equation entirely Especially with lolita being anti male gaze, cause like, its got nothing to do with them. Also I love short skirts and dresses and the idea of them being inherently errotic is bizarre to me
Women should be allowed to reclaim eroticism on their terms just like with frilly cutesy femininity. Especially with the gothic aesthetics, those two go hand in hand. Ero Lolita doesn’t seem like something that goes against Lolita style, but expands on it like you said. The western side of a lot of subcultures are way too harsh on anything that wants to embrace sexuality in a way that’s freeing or non exploitative.
God when I still wore the fashion I uploaded a coordinate photo in front of my bedroom door, where I would hang belts and harnesses waist chains for punk outfits. People were dragging me for posting a coord with my "BDSM" gear in the background.
I understand the presence of modesty rules, like you said. They stem from a fear of objectification. But I think what people miss with this is that in the end, it's the responsibility of others to not objectify people! All the cords you showed were totally not inherently sxual, and if creeps read something into those looks, that's their fault.
Thanks for the video! I’m glad I found you. I’ve wanted to wear Gothic Lolita fashion since 2017-not for cosplay or special occasions, but as my everyday casual style. When I started exploring the community, I was immediately discouraged. There were so many rules: you had to be extremely wealthy to afford Lolita clothing, only authentic dresses were acceptable (replicas were heavily criticized, for newbie we’ve not known what is authentic yet), frequent attendance at events was expected, and most importantly, you had to conform to Eurocentric beauty standards to be accepted. I stepped away from Lolita fashion because of these rigid expectations and spent years in the Goth subculture instead. Later, I discovered Visual Kei and gained a deeper understanding of what Lolita fashion truly is. Now, I’m trying to reconnect and learn more about it again.
Good to see you have returned. I've been in the comm 2003~2008/09 and 2017~current. Overly rigid adherence to the "rules" (I see them more like guidelines) stifles creativity. Brand elitism though, I rarely see it anymore. The current lolita market has a lot of lower budget choices and people have generally accepted non japanese brands. I'm lower income and have accumulated a wardrobe over the years by buying second hand, which (unless it's a very sought after piece) does tend to be cheaper than retail. The replica topic; buying replicas that are produced for commercial purposes hurts (especially smaller) lolita brands and makes it difficult for them to continue to exist. This is why the community is generally against replicas. There is no good reason to buy them.
@ Thanks for sharing! Regarding replica clothing, I’ve come to realize that it’s similar to fast fashion, which goes against the values of alt subcultures like Goth and Lolita. Unfortunately, back then, people I met in community discouraged replicas not because of ethical concerns, but simply because they were cheap-while insisting that Lolita fashion had to be authentic by extremely expensive price. That felt arrogant and ignorant to me. However, now that I understand the real issues with replicas and fast fashion, I truly appreciate having the opportunity to learn about Lolita fashion again.
@@hoangthypham6976 Sad to hear you were treated like that. There are a lot of lower budget brands right now that only offer original designs. Cheap is also not synonymous with low quality, although some lolitas use it that way. You can get cotton blouses under 20usd and cotton dresses under 50usd that are pretty decent and will last much longer than fast fashion. What I've read about replicas is that they often have a bad quality to price ratio. They still cost 70~120usd but you can get much better quality for that price, replicas don't end up saving you any money and it would be better to save up and look for the original design second hand or wait for a rerelease.
I think ero lolita is fine as long as it’s done well. For me personally if you break to many rules in a subculture, it loses it identity. As long as it’s balanced with certain elements it would still count.I’m also sure some Lolita brands break a few rules, if not please correct me.
Ero Lolita is only controversial to noobs who cling to the rules and lack the expertise to pull it off themselves. Also, older experienced Lolita come off as “gatekeepers” because back in the EGL days we needed them because we had westerners legit wearing maido cosplays and calling it Lolita. There have legit been people trying to wear jean pants and call it Lolita because they wore bows and pink with it. I also think people confuse ero lolita in glbs because not every “ero lolita” was Lolita. It was called Gothic AND Lolita Bible. There was gothic, lolita and everything in between showcased in the GLB. My personal opinion? Ero is wonderful when done right. You can break some rules and still be Lolita as long as you don’t break all of them. But most importantly, you don’t have to label everything Lolita. It doesn’t make you less of a Lolita for wearing coords NOT purely Lolita. No one is gonna pull your Lolita card. People get too wrapped up in Lolita as a label.
I find Ero Lolita is just Gothic Lolita with slight sexier twist , yeah i mean the sexy in avant garde way not the traditional way , and i find its strange why community becoming way too hysterical about it **Facepalm**
@ I think Ero Lolita can be gothic OR Lolita. Depending on how Ero is styled it can be either. I don’t agree with it being sexy though, as sexy is objective. It definitely can have traditional fetish/gothic elements. It really depends on the individual coord. Ero style is very fluid imo.
I have mixed feelings. While I think that ero is often villainised in the community, I can also see how it can go wrong real fast. Like, some (but definitely not all) of lolita fashion is based on children's clothing and bringing even the slightest hint of eroticism into it can be a bad look on the whole community. Especially on the west where the book is more well known. But I also think most things people actually wear when they do an ero coord are not inherently sexual (chokers, bloomers, corsets, suspenders ect) so I don't see why some people make it a huge deal. My conclusion is: ero can be unsavoury and a bad look but most of the time it's quite tame and harmless and people need to chill out.
@Carolmikuu yes 100%. I'd like to try the style myself one day because I like how unconventional it is. Also, keep up the good work, your videos are really neat :DD
Let's be very careful here and not fall into "it could look weird if people misunderstand". Clothes cannot "go wrong". People outside of EGL will find us weird regardless of whether or not one skirt is a bit short. A grown adult woman can wear whatever she likes, it's not going to be "sexualizing children" no matter how ruffly your OP is. It's on an adult body. Falling into that rhetoric is falling in line with conservative ideals of "ooo the weirdly dressed queers are groomers" and such. Overall, I understand the urge to make sure people understand lolita isn't a kink, but I've noticed that we as a community are starting to lean towards the other extreme, ultravigilant, policing each other, and in some instances even acting anti-sex/anti-kink altogether. Watch out, friends.
@shinjitruther even as an adult, dressing child-like and sexual at the same time will invite a dangerous audience. An audience the lolita community has been trying to avoid for DECADES. It isn't our fault that creeps exist, but that doesn't mean we can allow them to feed off of our community.
Ero has absolutely no elements that look like children's clothing, it just looks like victorian underwear or boudoir/cabaret photoshoot stuff. People who are always thinking about children and pdfilia are weird.
As someone who got into lolita fashion around 2002/2003ish, I’ve actually always liked erololita. I liked to collect the G&L bibles back then and loved the diversity of styles it displayed. I really don’t know where “the rules” came from, but have always hated the gatekeeping that crops up in some lolita spaces. “The point is to not be sexualized” well did anyone tell the Japanese brands and communities that? Is it really a movement or is it just an aesthetic? Can it mean different things for different people? And what’s wrong with wanting to be sexy? I didn’t really delve into ero lolita myself but I had close friends who were raked across the coals for showing cleavage, wearing shorter skirts, or not wearing blouses under jsk. I wound up participating in a Steampunk group in about 2008? And I did wear a brown leather corset with brass bucks over a brown and pink clockwork op, and I got shit for ‘steam lolita’’not being a real lolita fashion’. I was laughing my ass off when steampunk inspired lolita looks started popping up in the G&L Bible,” and even more so when Alice and the Pirates premiered. I came to prefer fashion communities with broader themes rather than strictly lolita since there was less gatekeeping and more room for creativity and expression. I’m sure there are smaller communities that aren’t so catty but unfortunately what I experienced was not so pleasant.
Ero Lolita leans more towards goth inspo than it does historical under garments to me, which makes the ones that include fetish wear easier to understand. Not a huge fan of a lot of ero, but if they’re enjoying themselves, then that’s all I care about 😎 Also I agree with the sentiment of keeping it modest, I think that should be the only real “rule” to Lolita. ❤
Sometimes, people who are alt or into some alt subculture get so purist of said subculture that they make a new status quo inside that group. So there will be people who want to break the rules always. Imagine being the weirdo between the "weirdos"... i mean, it gets hillarious at some point. Just let people have their own personality.
i think in general, western (no idea on other groups) lolitas have an issue with being not just against sexualizing the style (which i can understand), but with taking it to the extremes of being anti-sex (or anti-sex worker). this moves Beyond ero lolita styles, but some are so afraid of being misunderstood, they want to force lolitas to be pure in a very gross and shaming way. i can't speak for how often that sort of thing occurs as a whole, but it's not uncommon for me to see stories of people who treat being a lolita almost like a badge of moral superiority and purity over others in their pursuit of not having the style misrepresented as sexual in nature- even talking down about other alt styles that are more revealing in nature as if they're lesser than lolita. i don't see why it should be like that, honestly? a lot of us are fully grown adults, with full lives. i work at little caesars and i drink and i am not a stranger to adult interactions with my peers. i keep it separate from my lolita stuff, because i don't feel good conflating the two (and ero lolita doesn't conflate those things in any case). it feels gross to police people's private lives in such a manner- some people are so bad about it, that even having a large bust or rear is considered bad sometimes because those are sexualized by people (though they are not and should not be sexualized, theyre just body parts), even when wearing excessively modest cuts. i dont really know where im going with this comment, other than there are many in the lolita community that seem so scared of being misunderstood (which is understandable), but instead of trying to mitigate misunderstanding by education or literally any other way, they want to police people so hard that having a body shape they deem "sexy" is bad, or having a private life separate to your lolita fashion is bad, or wearing corsets/shorter skirt shapes/more casual coords is bad. it's better than it used to be from my knowledge, but it's still enough to make me feel anxious. i cant be a lolita in public or i'm a pervert because being an adult wearing cute long dresses is "perverted" i guess, but i can't be a lolita online because i'm also a grown adult with my own adult life and don't live to satisfy some person's idea of being a morally pure doll in every interaction i have outside of lolita. does anyone get what i'm trying to say or is this word salad
I've just recently found this Chanel and I've been loving it, please keep doing what you're doing! I've been struggling to find lolita fashion RUclipsrs I enjoy
So I'm goth and I participate in many, many different substyles and one of them happens to be EGL. I never knew that some of how I was dressing could be considered Ero Lolita since with my co-ords and general outfits I often wear chokers/collars, high-highs and corsets since those go hand-in-hand with the rest of my style. I would've never even considered some of those elements as Ero since they're just a part of my regular wardrobe but it's interesting to know. I also as a general rule prefer the silhouette of short skirts, especially since I'm short. That's hella interesting! ❤
For femmes and women i feel like it really doesnt matter how "modest" you dress, a man may still sexalize you because he just doesnt care for your autonomy and boundaries. maybe too serious of an example, but even muslim women who wear hijab and long flowy dresses to hide their curves will get sexualized by predatory men. its the unfortunate reality of living in a patriarchal society.. i think policing eachother is doing way more harm than good, when the true culprit are disrespectful and gross men. while i understand the core sentiment of these strict rules, i feel like lolita and alternative fashion in general should be more about uplifting eachother, and standing together. though to be fair im into gothic lolita and vkei styles mostly, so maybe my mindset is just different
I'm casualy into lolita fashion and I didn't know "just showing arms" is considered ero-lolita. I don't like that name either, knowing that makes me enjoy lolita label less, it felt like people in ero-lolita style are sexualized by traditional lolita, not to my vibe. Beautyful look btw, thank you for interesting video
Haha. I love lolita fashion (As an observer that can only partake via my art, since buying a whole new wardrobe is expensive), but I can't get behind the purity culture so prevalent in lolita spaces. I generally avoid partaking in subcultures because of how conformist they can be (even the self-proclaimed "counter culture" or "non-conformist" ones)
thats so interesting! i always use ero lolita as an example when i explain to people that lolita isnt sexual, because even in the substyle that is more sexualized, there are still slight rules, and what i often see is while most lolitas have cuter looks and makeup, ero lolita goes more into fetish wear and more 'mature looking' makeup, so again, its another point that lolita never meant to sexualize little girls (i have to explain this a lot that the style has nothing to do with the novel of the same name
Thats why its such a strange juxtaposition factor of western lolita community that expecting a Lolita fashion which the nature as an alternative fashion to challenging conformity have to expected to be stay in comformistic set list of dogma , No surprise this act is done for the sake to repels some posers because they want the fashion to be taken seriously
I think that because Western society doesn’t really find shoulders and thighs sexual, calling it erotic makes it seem a little uncomfortable. It feels like by calling it erotic it fetishizes showing skin in general, which goes against the spirit of Lolita. (wearing what you want for yourself. not others.) It seems to be a difference of culture and a bit of a translation issue. But Idk. I just don’t find it very sexy. At most it feels like artistic nudity. Like showing skin to represent being vulnerable. And being comfortable with that vulnerability is amazing!! I honestly don’t have an issue with Ero Lolita. Showing skin like that is fine!! Just. Calling it “erotic” feels counterproductive. That’s my take. For now at least.
And yet, junior high school & HS girls can be humiliated by teachers and forced to cover up for showing shoulders or too much leg skin in the USA, so I don't think this is necessarily true
@ Yeah I suppose that’s true. Maybe it’s just that I don’t personally find it sexy? I’m not sure. Although it is a lot more normalized in the West. At least in Younger people.
I knew one girl way back who was obsessed with Lolita clothes to the point that she was a snob about it. She was into the standard pastel colors, classic silhouettes, below the knee skirts and intricate looking laces. I wouldn’t have minded her overall personality or fashion statements, but when she said that girls with darker skin (tanned or born with) shouldn’t wear Lolita clothes I started avoiding her like the bubonic plague. I’ve let it slide when she talked absolute trash about me speaking English and not being “feminine” enough, but the skin color talk is where I drew the line.
to be honest I think everyone should have the freedom to wear what they want and the right to feel like they belong. at the same time, I also agree that everyone should have the freedom to criticize and openly dislike an aesthetic, as long as they keep things respectful. debating ideas with real arguments keep things fun! fashion shouldn't be a war, fashion should be a way to express yourself and the things you have inside your head!! and to hear/see what others are thinking. BUT my real issue with ero and fetish fashion in general is how people can't seem to choose the occasions to wear it properly. you shouldn't go around in lingerie and fetish accessories to a public space. we live in society and while is very admirable to see people going against the norms, some things are just really innapropriate... especially for kids to see. I don't like children at all but unfortunately the world is full of them and people has to understand that. problematics aside I think it all comes to using common sense while having fun.
I agree and disagree. Should you as a kinkster wear a gimp suit to a anime convention? Probably not - other people did not consent to be part of a scene with you. But if you're wearing a few accessories that are sexual in nature it really isn't that big of a deal. There's a shared responsibility between the wearer and the public. People should be able to talk to their kids and answer questions but adults shouldn't also get to take their kids to adult space and then dictate "Think of the children" because they didn't read the room and brought their kid.
Sure , as a non-Western person (( a South East Asian person obviously )), I”m surprised that western Lolita Community often taking Lolita Fashion In competitive direction (( American Lolita fashion community being the most competitive in the West )), making it more like a popularity contest but in contrast juxtaposition , I”m not surprised that western Lolita fashion community often taking Lolita fashion in rather dogmatic approach In a world of fashion that ever changing and ever evolving , it is sounded unrealistic to expect it in simply in conformistic area forever I don’t want sounded hypocrite that I ever considered myself a dumb non American \ non-westerner , sure that I might not be able to changes somebody perspective about how people perceive me I know for many Lolita”s , this fashion is so meaningful for them and some of them feel mad and unhappy if the fashion is being misinterpreted , That”s why I Don”t want to give a simplistic naive defense of “Its just a clothes “ because I don’t want offend any Lolita’s
I think it is a sub genre of its own, just from looking at the street snaps and moon Kana ,it looks more like the style came from clubbing and has more gothic influences than lolita fashion
i dont find it very male gazey at all considering history of eroticism in japan and how in western victorian sense the ANKLES were very scandalous so the butt makes them pass away bc of how scandalous that could be. i find it very feminist and self love actually
might be controversial but I'll say, i'm fine with it as long as it's done tastefully, It's just not my thing- my worry is the impression it gives to the outside world, people aren't as understanding and already think the fashion as a whole is some kind of fetish thing. Don't think my own personal worry is strong enough to warrant shutting the whole thing down! And i'm definitely not gonna knock anyone for doing it!
lolita fashion is a street fashion or alternative fashion and i feel like gatekeeping what is and isn't lolita isn't a very not alternative, i love lolita and would like to be able to participate without being told i'm wrong for not wearing a petticoat or under shirt, i am quite large and very few companies, not even lady sloth, have dresses that fit me, i have very bad sensory issues and the fabric most petticoats are made out of would drive me crazy, not to mention that i can't find a single petticoat in my size, i also run very warm and live in a very warm area where the coldest we really get is 60 degrees farenheit, undershirts would make me sweat like crazy. this has less to do with "ero lolita" and more with the way the western lolita community treats people who don't follow the rules, i personally wouldn't include certian things from ero lolita into my (hypothetical) co-ords like corsets and garterbelts but just because of my body shape and me not wearing an undeershirt i can see myself getting catigorized as an "ero lolita" or fetishizer of lolita fashion with out given the chance to explain. i love lolita and i'd love to take part in it, i've started looking into making my own dresses so i can partake in it, but the lolita rules often make me feel like i'm doing something wrong or offesnive for having my own limitations. now onto actual ero lolita, given the context of the book, which i know is not where the fashion sense comes from but is what a lot of westerners think of when hearing the term, doesn't really feel apropriate in the name, whether it should be classified as not a lolita subfashion or have a different name i don't know. i knew of lolita fashion before i everheard of the book but the way that the book has been misrepresented as a piece of fetish work thanks to the movie adaptaions and the sexualization of brands like dolls kill and musical artisits like lana del rey, it has come to be a bit of a touchy subject for some people. i do not think lolita itself needs a name change, but catagorizing the word "ero" with the word "lolita" feels weird to me, however i wouldn't tell someone wearing "ero lolita" they're a bad person or demonize them for their fashion choices, i'd probably actually enjoy their fit and compliment them. i think self expression is really importatnt and fashion is a really great way to express yourself, sometimes i don't even feel like myself until i'm all dressed up (which in reality isn't very great but it helps me feel good). I think the demonization of a fashion style because of the way society has created context around it is awful, this applies to more than lolita or "ero lolita", a lot of subcultres like punk and goth are about more than the fashion but the way people treat those who dress in certian alternative styles, or really any alternative styles, is bad and full of bigotry. some of the lolita rules feel to me a way to filter out certian people in a bigoted way, the way people who do not partake in alternative fashion use their judgment of alternative fashion and subcultures to write off someone as bad. the only thing that really bothers me about "ero lolita" is the name, but some people feel that way about just "lolita", infact i used to about lolita as well once i learned about the book but now i don't, so who knows maybe in a year or two when i have more experience and know more i won't feel that way anymore. TLDR: the words "ero" and "lolita" feel weird as a combo for me but the fashion is cool. lolita fashion is an alternative fashion and lolita rules is just gatekeeping for the most part, some of which rules read as abelist and fatphobic, which is what the "normies" do to almost all alternitive people. gatekeeping isn't cool, everyone has their own personal circumstances and treating them badly for doing something outside of your rules, lolita or not, isn't cool.
I dislike rigidly adhering to "the rules" and forcing that mindset on other people. But lolita does have guidelines (which can be broken or bent successfully by people who have developed an eye for the fashion) that act both as a useful framework for beginners as well as distinguishing the fashion from other fashions. I've noticed that the people who say lolita has no rules, or that it shouldn't have rules because it's an alternative fashion, tend to have outfits that aren't lolita but they want to be able to label them as such. There are exceptions of course.
The excuse of 'ero lolita caters to the male gaze so it defeats the purpose' doesnt really work when every kind of lolita unfortunately still gets sexualised by men... Its just men
I never understood the phrase "dressing for the male gaze". Im a woman, so im aware of the world around me. Hell even i dress a bit more masc to as a way to tell men "im not interested". But even then that's a tiny reason why i dress that way. I dress that way cuz i like to, not just to detour men. I completely understand if dressing a certin way helps you gain more confidence and control especially in a society that says we shouldn't have any, but still even if we dress super modest and pure or super sexy, men will still be men at the end of the day so why not just dress how you want. Mabye i sound like im talkin outta my ass but that's what i think. Also very ironic for lolita purest to be talking about reclaiming femininity while scoffing at collar bones and bare shoulders.
You're very well-spoken and I'm very happy I found your channel. I've wanted to see new creators within the lolita sphere for some time now. Looking forward to seeing how your content evolves, cheering you on. For ero lolita, I believe many people dismissing it simply don't understand how it looks... but I'm not saying this as a way to look down on critics. I've been involved with this style for a many years now and only recently 'understood' it. It's one of those aspects of lolita that become clearer with community exchange, no matter how much research you do on your own. If we define ero as a style that includes accessories with a history of sexual/intimate connotation (eg. corsets, lingerie-inspired gear, collars such as those made by raspberrymazohyst), I think that opens up a really exciting possibility to 'reclaim' this type of accessorising for a non-sexual context. If anything, I think ero lolita could be an innovative way to express a sentiment similar to the feminist roots at the inception of the wider lolita subculture, what with reclaiming your own personal brand of hyperfemininity. It's also an interesting bridge over to aspects of goth. Corsets, PVC fabrics, and other ero lolita aspects all appear in various typed of gothic fashion-it's not really surprising to see these in lolita as the fashion aspects of these subcultures in many cases overlap. If clothing isn't used in a purposefully sexual context I don't think it should be categorised as inherently sexual, which ero lolita explores in really creative ways.
Before anyone points this out: no, goth isn't a fashion subculture, but it undeniably has an array of fashion styles associated with it... with many taking influence from victorian fashion I hope my thoughts on this make sense.
Might not super related with Ero Lolita but when I once a member of Rufflechat (( But no longer a member anymore )) , There is one of dress with black and pink colour combo that has a BDSM bunny print that riles the entire Rufflechat to a Reee fest due to that risqué print And even a that time I feel want to complaining that a lots of members are being over dramatic and I even says that it is unrealistic to expect an alternative fashion simply just staying on lane of comformistic approach
In my opinion, showing more skin (as long that you are not showing anything like your butt or something) shouldn't count as sexy or anything. Where I live is almost always very hot and I wouldnt SURVIVE if I wore clothes that cover my entire body all the time. However, when you start adding "fetish accessories" , I truly do believe that it's not ok to still call it lolita, since lolita fashion is all about modesty and looking cute and blablabla, you can't achieve that using fetish items since the whole point of lolita is to not be sexualized lol
Tbh I don't really get all the discourse, clothes are clothes. Correcting or giving a heads up to a person who is going against the normality of a genre they claim is okay I guess. But attacking people who just incorporate Lolita clothes into their outfits is just weird. All the labels and sub-genre can be a double edged sword I guess.
In my personal opinion I find it really upsetting how gatekeepy and honestly mean/unwelcoming the Lolita community can get sometimes- I think as long as people are dressing respectfully that there’s nothing wrong with deconstructing some of the rules attached to the fashion style and people need to stop being so judgmental of others who like to be a bit more experimental with their fashion as after all at the end of the day I think fashion should be fun and expressive of individuality!!! As you said there’s obviously a line, but I see nothing wrong with people wearing skirts that are a bit shorter or having exposed shoulders or elements like chokers and corsets!!! As long as people are dressing respectfully I don’t see a problem at all
I am not that experienced in that culture but i think everyone should be able to express themselves how they want and be able to have their own unique appearance
The issue with that is that J fashion sub-cultures have specific guidelines to be considered a part of that community. It isn't much of a western idea where there is more openness or lack of conceptual recognition of sub-cultures and why a specific person goes into them. Like the complex reasons a girl would be gravitated towards gyaru as an example. Even gyaru isn't a thing that can truly be experienced in the west.
@@MingusDynastyy I understand that there is a community part to it, I don’t mean to offend anyone. The problem is probably the name. I don’t think there would be that much of a problem if they stop labelling it as something it’s not.
@@tawny1686 Yeah that's pretty much the issue basically lol. Which westerners trying to get into complex j-fashion have a hard time understanding what it means to be in there then either being too conservative with rules that don't matter, like what she was mentioning or not knowing what it means to be in that culture
I’m just goth but i buy a lot of secondhand clothes from lolita and even gyaru brands and mix them into my personal style. it’s really elevated my wardrobe! I don’t wear skirts/dresses so I’ll never really get into ero lolita but it’s one of my favorite styles on other people. I do take lots of notes from them for my own more “Victorian” outfits, especially how they layer, or style bloomers. I understand wanting to preserve the subculture, but some of the people complaining are obviously Puritanically minded. if your quest to eliminate the male gaze circles back to slut shaming you’ve lost the plot…. I also see a lot of people saying ero lolita looks cheap, but that really just depends on the quality of the clothes and not the style itself. as someone else said if Mana-Sama did it then it’s fair game lol
I always wanted to be lolita, as Ive been a fan of it since like, 12 when I first discovered it, but I have autism whoch leads to issues with processing temperature. I am always overheating. Once I learned about the layers, I gave up on my lolita dreams 😭 Im goth, and alt- ero lolita with less layers is literally the only way I could get lolita adjacent and be in the community. Im ace, I dont wven see ero lolita as sexual, even if it tries to be 😭
I'd love to chime in with my two cents, as someone who has no affiliation with the Lolita culture, but someone who appreciates the hell out of it, HOWEVER, I do have some cred in that I am a part of the alt scene (so punk, emo, goth, tbh I don't subscribe to a particular category, that's why I just say alt) who also will wear things associated with fetish wear. I can understand wanting to somewhat gatekeep the Lolita style. I have such an innate hatred of the 'clean goth' micro-trend that was hot for a second, mostly because Goth, is more about the music. Some people can't wear clothes or makeup associated with the culture due to whatever reasons. I also do understand why a lot of people, particularly Western Lolita folks, don't want people to dress up for the sexualisation, and due to the fact that for a lot of people not in the culture will see Lolita and think of the book/movie. But with saying all this, it does feel weird to hate on people within a specific subgroup. Even with my annoyance of the 'clean goth' micro-trend, I don't actively hate people who do it, and I hope that maybe they can get into Goth as a whole (though I do have #feelings on the whole 'clean' and 'pure' suffixes of these micro-trends, but I digress). While I might dress sexual when I go out to a club, to be honest, 100000% of the time, I'm not dressing for attention from men. Firstly, I am dressing for myself. I like to wear chain harnesses, and short skirts, and chokes and stuff like that. But also, if there's a "gaze" I'm dressing for, it's really just the gaze and attention from my partner (who is a woman). I also dress for basically anyone who isn't a cis man. And I understand that Lolita isn't something that's meant to be sexualised. But tbh, men will often find a way to sexualise women. No matter what they're wearing.
13:05 these all seem to be western Lolitas, but maybe you can find a way of asking older Japanese Lolitas (or even ‘newer’ that aren’t babies) to ask them what they think
I think the western community is goo gatekeepy. It's what made scared of wearing lolita as a teen. I was broke (and still lowkey am), and yes my dresses are from AliExpress (I only have 3 or 4 of them, because even from AliExpress, I couldn't afford much of them-) Now I don't really care, and mostly will call my fashion "lolita inspired" and stuff. But ngl for me I root for ero lolita. I don't think ""sexualization"" has to be made for the male gaze, and I think it can be just a sort of rebellion on the fact that women are expected to be modest, and that "to not be sexualized, you must be modest" which kinda sounds victim blamey imo:/ So yeah, it's why I tend to stay away from the community for these reasons...
This debate seems a little dated to me now. Do western lolitas still care so much about ero lolita? About showing knees and shoulders? I don't find it to be true so much anymore but maybe I am not where these conversations take place. The only "rule" that I think makes a coordinate lolita or not lolita is, if there is a petticoat.
![Seungmin "그렇게, 천천히, 우리(As we are)" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kAzmhLHePqU/mqdefault.jpg)
The way Western lolita cling to 'the rules' has always made me wonder what Japanese lolita think of those 'rules' and the way we act about them. This is an alt fashion, but sometimes western lolita seem to be strictly against any creativity. I also loathe the idea of showing more skin being inherently more 'sexual'.
hi im mostly a follower of the eastern influences (china, japan) they really dont care about anything other than the sillhouette and even then they allow less poofy a-lines
i really think they just fundamentally dont understand the premise of counter cultute lol
Feels like not until recently western lolitas actually paid attention to the roots of the fashion and understood the rules are not unbreakable and it's just clothing and even the people who invented it broke them all the time.
im telling you jp people really dont care too much like how the western community does
@@e3ruisdead Nah, early forums were full of mean girls that called anything slightly non-conforming to the rules "ita"
The way I see it, ero lolita should be sexy in an avant-garde/fashion way rather than in the traditional sense (if you know what im getting at). To me, the purpose of ero lolita a deconstruction of traditional lolita elements, its about bring the inside out and questioning convenions.
Lolita was always about questioning societal conventions, the moment that lolitas get to bogged down in conventions of their own is the moment the style dies.
@judyibrahim7427 I love the way you put it!! I think it makes sm sense
Im new to lolita fashion, could you explain the last sentence better to me?? I'm a little confused lol
THIS
THISS
@@SeRSi239lolita was started in response to societal pressures on japanese women to look attractive for a man but to not have a super loud style, to not be TOO eye catching. lolita says screw that & covers up the body while also being VERY loud. so, if lolitas start policing what others can and can’t wear, it kind of goes against the whole idea of the style. hope that helps !! ^^
The crazy thing is the same people in the community who hate Ero Lolita also always seem to idolize Mana Sama from Malice Mizer/Moi Meme Moitie and he's worn many co-ords back in the Gothic Lolita Bible which would be considered far too revealing by Western Lolita's standards today all the way back in the 90s.
I’ve always wondered how they seem to miss this
Because they see him as a high status man and are maleworshipping. If he wasn’t in a yaoicore vkei band, those same people would tear him down otherwise. They’re weird about Mana and ignore female celebs in EGL like Misako Aoki, I wish they were more normal with him. As a Malice Mizer fan.
@girlsnightgirIsnight if were being honest it's cause men are never held to the same standards as women 🫠
as a raging mana fan, agreed, it's crazy that they don't see their own hypocrisy.
the "no shoulders exposed" "no knees" is so funny to me because I live in a tropical country. Theres a total of 0 people wearing a blouse under a dress here. the average temperature is 40celsius. showing skin is so normal, I will never understand how a knee can be sexualized lol
Seriously, knees? I don’t get it either
having knees must imply you have legs witch must imply you have thighs witch must imply you have a BUTT😣
I don't think knees or shoulders have ever been a problem since you can see many summer outfits on old GLBs where people used no blouse under jsk or shorter skirts. Japan is also a very warm country in the summer. Ero lolita is more about styling than just showing body parts. I argue you don't even have to stray from a classic lolita sillhoutte to wear ero lolita.
Ive never worn a blouse under a jsk or petticoat (bc yes heat above 100 F) but i consider my style a looot more casual
@@e3ruisdead I was more into Lolita 10 years ago, and it was a really big deal back then. Like I know of communities that would "forget to invite" people that regularly didn't wear the fashion right. Like blouseless or no petticoat. Things have definitely chilled since then.
Someone once said that ero lolita should look like a Victoria or rococo royal stepped out while in the process of getting dressed, and I've always loved that.
In terms of it "being for the male gaze", i can't agree with that because you can wear revealing clothing without wanting male attention. If men didn't exist, I'd wear way less clothing than I do now because I like it, it's got nothing to do with the male gaze or dressing for men.
Honestly, in the end it's just fashion, if a woman wants to dress ero Lolita it's not a big deal (thanks for your perspective btw :D)
I think ero lolita got unsavory rep because of the name and how people perceive it. Just like how they think about someone that use corset, harnesses , choker , garterbelts and something along those lines as "sexual".
In my opinion all those items are just accesories, that sometimes it could elevate how some coord looks. Just like how ero lolita is just a more "scandalous" than other sub genre.
Yess this!!
i remember slowly wearing a makeshift choker, a teal painted bell tried with a black ribbon around my neck and it genuinely made me feel safe bubbly and happy in a content manner that had me making noise whenever i was alone just vibing. Slowly, because i was trying to be cautious wearing it at school since i’m not used to doing that other than necklaces.
As a westerner who lived in Japan I can confirm it was pretty common even in 2008 to play around with the style guide in Harajuku. There was a lot of mixing with other subcultures, and in the summer it was not uncommon to see knees and shoulders.
People seem to forget that it's not exactly about avoiding male attention; it's about dressing how you want without regard to male attention, like you don't even care what they think. Intimidatingly, unapologetically effeminate. Maybe for some folks it is about avoiding the male gaze, but that's still letting them control you in a way imo. In Japan there's still this double standard that you can try for a career but once you have a husband or even a boyfriend you're supposed to give it all up to be a wife, and lolita combats this by creating an image of pre-courtship (and therefore disinterest) and creating a woman's sphere free from male influence. Not to mention historically in Japan men actually avoid Lolitas, even ero, because it's seen as self absorbed and immature to not dress "appropriately" so it serves as repellent to the more traditional mindsets. Anyway I'm not Japanese but those were my observations while I lived in Tokyo and chatted with folks in Japan.
I think its important to realize that women (and femmes) get to be sexy *without* it having anything to do with the male gaze or being sexualized. We get to feel good, confident, and feminine in our own bodies and outfits. Sometimes, feeling "sexy" on our terms is super powerful, and it can be done both with and without showing a shoulder or part of a leg. It can be done with a corset. I think if it still fits the basic shape and elaments of Lolita, even if it breaks a rule, like lacy bloomers instead of a skirt, or a corset over a blouse, it's still Lolita. And to assume that anyone is strictly dressing for the attention of a man just because something may be interpreted as "sexy" is pretty gross. Because, lets be real. We're going to get sexualized no matter how "man repellant" we dress. We're just fighting it. It's kind of empowering to take something away from the male gaze and say, "this is MINE now." I say this as a pole dancer. I wear thongs and 8" heels to class and I feel sexy and there isn't a man in sight. I'm not doing it for men. I'm doing it because I feel strong and invincible. I claim my body and anything on it and everything I can do with it. Lolita achieves a similar thing- claiming femininity on our terms- but in a different direction. Both directions are valid, and that valididity can create space for an overlap.
you get it !! i love this take so much
this yes
I just have war flashbacks to a puritan lolita in my local community that screamed at everyone if their shoulders were exposed/skirts were slightly shorter than normal, and lost her mind when anyone was in a relationship because 'lolita cannot have sex!' it was actually insane. not to mention screeching about how everything that isn't classic or sweet lolita is costumey and fake
what the heck, this is horrible D:
The irony of thinking sweet as one of the few non-costumey styles is hilarious.
@@bloodangelsheart she definitely wore sweet thats why it is ok in her books.
even old school lolita was costumey to her???? 😭😭😭😭
I don't get it: does this Puritan Lolita think people are having sex in their Lolita dresses? I could be wrong, but there's no way in hell anyone is gonna have sex in a $1200 OP from AP! (lol) Seriously, she needs to go look at photos in a Kera magazine and put together a kawaii coord because it's none of her business what any person does in their sex life!
I get how it may be problematic, but i really love the style and going outside of the norm. Personally i prefer more gothic accessories, shorter dresses or bloomers/shorts because of the shape and because im nonbinary so i just like to make the styles more androgynous sometimes.
That's so so valid!!
I think what some lolitas don’t realize is that there is a difference between wearing “sexy” clothing and being sexual. Clothes aren’t inherently sexual, and shaming people for wearing - in all honesty - very modest clothing is just gross.
Saying people’s clothing is “male gaze-y” or “looking for male attention” is pretty clear sl*t shaming.
There’s also the problem of lolitas not wanting to be associated with the book Lolita. However, that book was about a child! Ero Lolita fashion doesn’t utilize as many childish elements, and the “eroticism” comes from the accessories and skin being shown. So the book associations don’t really work - if anything I’d say ero lolita looks less stereotypically childish than typical Lolita fashion.
I’m goth, so maybe I’m not that tuned into the intricacies of lolita, but as a goth the pearl clutching is quite weird to me, since my subculture contains many of the elements of ero Lolita. Pretty tame compared to what I’ve seen (and wear).
also, I hate that any aspect of sexuality and eroticism is seen as "for men", there's so many sapphics in the lolita community and everytime I dress in a more exposed way, it is most certainly not for men, but other queer people and myself.
THIS!! I was wondering if I could say this considering the fact lolita WAS originally made with modesty in mind, but I DO really feel like it's good to have a space where you can be a tiny bit more erotic without being accussed of pandering to men!
@@Len..Kbut was it really made with modesty in mind in Japan? The fashion is flashy and attention-catching, and women were already expected to behave in a way that would make them more likely to get married and settle down and be "respectable." It was a rebellion against work uniforms and societal expectations. In the US, for instance, it often feels like more of a rebellion to be more covered up (i.e. more "modest") but the fashion isn't "modest" whatsoever if you look at the definition of the word.
@@christinafenendael9477 good point! I'll admit I don't really know much about the history and was just going off of the video wkdnwkskw But I think you may be right!
Wanting to look sexy doesn't necessarily mean you want sexual attention. Whenever I get dressed, I love looking at myself in the mirror and saying to myself, I look good! Because I'm dressing for myself and not anybody else. If men think I'm sexy, I don't care, but I'm sexy for me because I like looking good.
i feel like the name "ero lolita" is almost misleading to westerners because our modesty standards are very different. japan's culture is naturally more modest, while in the west we often joke about shoulders being viewed as "erotic" and things of that nature. it's not uncommon to see someone showing a lot of skin, so in comparison the concept of ero lolita almost feels tame to me. it's just a different way of expressing yourself while not adhering to such strict rules. the idea of bloomer shorts and showing shoulders being labeled erotic, or not having a certain skirt length or skirt shape almost seems ridiculous to fuss over. it may not be everyone's cup of tea but that's why it's a style of lolita. (or a subcategory or whatever you'd like to call it) it's still derivative of lolita fashion and includes lolita elements, just without such strict rules and elements you might not find in regular lolita. it doesn't seem to be NSFW by any means, and it seems reductive to write it off just because it does not adhere to strict modesty rules. maybe that's just my perspective as a westerner who is generally openminded and believes that fashion is ever-evolving, but who are we to deny lolitas in japan the ability to show skin that may be deemed "erotic" in their society? it's like reclaiming your body and dressing for yourself, even if people think it fits into the male gaze. lolita fashion has always been about dressing for yourself, and i think that's what matters.
also, i think the people shown in the magazines look super cool ^_^ i dig the hoop skirts n all. def need to get my hands on some jfashion magazines
You put it into perspective perfectly!! Yes modesty standards are very different, thank you for your comment!!
"Fashion is self expression! Except the kind we dont like, thats gross😊" That's how they sound
I think I generally have an issue with the whole discourse around “sexualizing”. I feel ero lolita is, well, erotic, but that doesn’t mean it’s sexualizing oneself or the fashion, it just shows you like being sexual. I don’t know how to describe it, but it makes a statement about owning your sexuality without involving other people and not doing it to arouse anyone
I feel like sometimes the hate the ero style gets may border on bodyshaming territory, as depending on the height, size, etc. of the person, the way coords sit on them may have elements commonly seen in ero even if they weren't going for that look, such as skirts looking shorter, some of the chest showing etc.
I see what you mean yeah, but I think there's more to ero lolita than a shorter skirt? If that makes sense, but i absolutely get what you mean!!
That's a really good point. I know I've been shamed for wearing tops that would never be considered "inappropriate" on someone else who didn't have such a large bust. I'm sure it's the same sometimes with this style. Having a large bust or bum both make tops & dresses shorter, as well as just being tall, of course.
my first ever coord was ero lolita (main outfit bought from 42lolita) and i wasnt aware that was what it was, i got flamed online for daring to call it lolita (the only problem was the skirt being very short) and it made me scared to mess up again... thanks for shedding light!!
yes! I find it interesting that other lolitas, members of an alternative fashion community, often use the exact same talking points when they criticise ero as really close-minded people who think that a person wearing bright makeup or unconventional clothes must be doing it for male attention. I understand feeling protective of the fashion and not liking the substyle because it doesn't have all the standard lolita elements, but the way the criticism often takes the angle of "this way of self expression is bad and wrong and you should stop and feel ashamed" is... something
Yes absolutely!!
Life lesson I have learned is that people really are the same. Doesn't matter if they are in a conservative religious strict Community versus a counterculture community. Both people, despite being in very different groups, usually have the very same mindset. Just replace a few words, and it's basically the same conversation.
As a person who had experience with both.
@@2dents513 as someone who dabbles in lolita but has been in a bunch of other "alternative" communities throughout highschool (ie. scene, punk, 90's grunge, metalhead, etc.), gatekeeping is ironically more prevalent in alternative communities over "normal" ones due to the fear of their subculture being "tainted". this inadvertently causes people within that subculture to enforce rules over others even though it's sometimes pointless (which is even more ironic as most alternative communities are built over nonconformity)
1:12 "...to refuse to subscribe to the norm of mature femininity. To counter expectations that is placed on women to dress a certain way..."
I kinda call Lolita as a movement. And precisely because it is a movement, it shouldn't stop moving, innovating, or experimenting. "The rules" imposed by some are something that lollita fashion is exactly created to counter. So I say, go on with your ero lolita! Make those stiff and stuck-up people seething mad!
You put a covering from head to toe, the male gaze will find a way to sexualized it. The thing that is wrong in male gaze is not the clothings, it is the gaze itself.
So true. I grew up in Muslim country where women are expected to be covered head to toe, not just covered, it has to be extremely loose clothing and sometimes the face is also fully covered... Because eyes are considered 'inviting, alluring, seductive'. All because we are 'fully responsible' for men's criminal actions.
But surprise surprise, hijab porn, are RIDICULOUSLY EXTREMELY POPULAR in Muslim countries 💀💀 The rate of sexual assault in my country is also significantly higher among hijab women. Men will ALWAYS sexualize women, no matter what. Also made worse with the rise of AI/deepfakes, fml.
I’m gonna be real, I’ve always found the western Lolita community to be a bit pretentious because of how much concern they have over “the rules” and it’s definitely turned me away from dressing in the style in a lot of ways. I wear slip dresses and corsets all the time and that doesn’t mean I’m wearing it to be sexualized. I think this sort of mentality gets very victim blamey in all honesty. Just because my cleavage is out doesn’t give people the right to make inappropriate comments about my body. Some days I want to look like a pretty princess and some days I want to look like a rockstar. I really wish I felt more welcome by the community because there are so many elements of Lolita fashion I love, but I feel deeply unwelcome from a lot of the stuff I’ve seen online about the community.
This is such a silly western argument, I've lived in Japan for 10 years and nobody here ever fights about this stuff. Lolita has been trending sexy for more than a decade, and there's always been sexual elements in it as far as I've seen. People policing fashion like it's some sort of club with bouncers who'll throw you out if you don't "follow the rules" really frustrate me. Wear what you enjoy, that's what most people in Japan do if they're into fashion at all.
Literally the way people police the fashion so much feels like whitewashing IMO. Like, Moite has done lolita photoshoots with kink furnature as set pieces but westerners will see someone wear a spiked heart choker and cry "wah that's too kinky!!! it's sexualizing the fashion!!!" and when told that JP brands have released worse will plug their ears and act like they know better what is and isn't lolita than the same JP brands these people fawn over.
is ero lolita a widely recognized substyle in Japan? I've gone looking on the japanese internet and found almost no mention of it on japanese language lolita guides, even ones that included niche sub styles. Maybe they use a different term. The only article I remember that came close to mentioning it said something along the lines of "the point of lolita is not to exude sexual appeal, although there are exceptions".
To be clear I have no problem with the existence of the style. I really like the style if it's done well.
@itsalwayshalloweenexceptwh5118 The term itself is something westerners made up, however "ero lolita" does exist a lot even still in JP lolita communities. It's just seen as "lolita" still and not some super special controversial subtype. Most JP lolitas would just call most stuff the west labels as "ero lolita" a gothic coord.
The fact "ero lolita" as a term exists in the west just comes from people throwing fits over stuff they don't like, which is really really tame compared to so much goth and punk and scene and raver fashion. Meanwhile from what I've seen from JP lolitas, they seem to have a similar mindset to western goths (actual goths, as in the goth subculture, not gothic lolitas) about fetishwear in fashion. If it fits within an outfit that when fully put together is appropriate for public and the person wearing it is behaving appropriately in public and not wearing it in places inappropriate to wear it? They don't care. Like legit Moitie has done so many brand photoshoots involving BDSM furnature and things that are very clearly actual BDSM gear and not just decorative if you're familiar with BDSM gear as set pieces, accessories, props, etc. even for when the models are in coords that wouldn't be called "ero" by westerners and no one cares because it's a promotional photoshoot for a brand targeted at adults and owned by vkei musician and kink/fetish elements are everywhere in vkei.
@@alistairrosehearts9734 This is very true in Japan's subculture fashion industry generally. BDSM as a fashion statement came into it with the goths at least as far back as the 80s, and there was a real BDSM boom in Japan during the 80s as well. BDSM styles being mixed with subculture fashion has ebbed and flowed, but it has never gone away in Japan. Today especially, you see tons of kinky BDSM-style stuff in Japanese fashion, including lolita. Brands like Amilige and ACDC Rag are full of collars, chains, spikes, and fetishistic anime art. Nobody bats an eye at it in the trendy areas of Tokyo, and even if you wear that stuff outside of Tokyo you're never going to get more than a few stares. It's far rarer out in the countryside, but generally speaking in the big cities, stuff that westerners would consider "kinky" or "fetishy" or "taboo" like that are pretty normal here. Nobody much cares.
@@itsalwayshalloweenexceptwh5118 Yeah I think the issue is that there's really no concept of "ero lolita" in Japan, it's just a matter of taste and preference. What westerners call "ero lolita" is really a specific reaction to our more puritanical roots and fetishizing, Japan generally isn't that concerned with those sorts of things. Because of that there's no real distinction between sexy and non-sexy lolita styles. Pretty much every subculture I've seen here has some outfits that are more revealing or sexy, some styles more than others, but it's all pretty much up to you. This has been true in lolita fashion as far back as I can remember.
So happy to see someone discuss ero lolita, I’ve always wanted to learn more
Yayy thank you for watching!! :3
Tbh i have virtually no knowledge of lolita fashion but i think as long as they feel comfortable and happy I don't think ero lolita should be attacked or anything. Looking sexier doesn't always mean you WANT sexual attention. As many people have pointed out , i think gatekeeping an alternative style is not very alternative and feels very silly to me
I feel like one big aspect of west vs Japan in the modesty discussion is that modesty isn't just about not showing skin in Japan. It's about not standing out too much and being subdue. Lolita in Japan, especially older street snaps, show shoulders or have shorter skirts and all these things the west sees as breaking the rules. But for a Japanese context being loud is what they use to subvert the modest expectations women are pressured into. Women are supposed to become wives and mothers who are docile and soft spoken. Lolita isn't about modesty in the way the west latched onto. Thou like you mentioned, in the west there's different expectations and the book so it makes sense it's not 1:1 in how breaking the expectations exists. I think the issue is how purist western Lolitas get about it. Some Lolita simply like the aesthetic and are focused on always trying to trump the male gaze. And Mana-sama was doing bdsm stuff on stage sometimes😂. Regardless of what is modest or not modest, as long as the person is incorporating ero elements for themselves thats what matters. Avoiding the male gaze should not soley diactate what people wear. Men will always gaze. Look at how Lolita wearers in Anime is so often fetishize even if not in fully lewd ways. Just like goth women in the west are super fetishized. I think with western Lolita communities, they are projecting the male gaze in a way that only reinforces exactly what Lolita and similar j fashion subcultures actively reject. For crying out loud look at momoko from kamikaze girls. She's not always wearing blouses and it's hardly sexualized or even ero. It's just summer and hot
I got accused of wearing ero because I wore shorter skirts with sheerer tights like okay. Honestly the purist gatekeepers absolutely killed the fashion for me
honestly, that part about questioning "sexiness" as a cry for male attention is the whole point. People act like everything a women does is for male attention, and this directly challenges that. In the end, we shouldn't have to dress a certain way for men to not feel entitled to us and finally leave us tf alone.
i love ero lolita. i think we shouldnt be so ashamed of sexuality.
TBH, I like Ero Lolita. It's kind of like a sexier version of Gothic Lolita, because of the dark colors, lace, etc.
The fact that the very culture that founded lolita doesn't mind this aspect of the fashion is telling enough to me. The idea of something not being for the male gaze doesn't mean it has to be perfectly chaste and pure, imo. I think people are acting under the assumption that any time a woman does something remotely scandalous it's an attempt to get male attention and that it can never be done by herself for herself, that it can't be a reclaimation for herself. It's the same flaw in logic that assumes women wear makeup only for men and not ever because they simply enjoy it. Sexuality is wrong when it's treated as an obligation, but I don't think anyone should ever have their expression of it controlled regardless of if that expression is embracing sexuality or removing sexuality (outside of obvious scenarios like those directly involving children, lol)
It be an interesting topic, the use of crosses in prints worn by those who aren’t Christian. As a Catholic myself I don’t really care, but I’ve accepted they’ve been used for their aesthetic value for decades and it probably won’t go away anytime soon.
But I know plenty of lolitas who are Christian and do not like their usage.
However, I’m not particularly keen on dresses that are called things like “Catholic Nun OP” just seems inappropriate and too on the nose.
I love ero lolita! I always thought about it like a interpretation of lolita undergarments in a more "historical" way (ej:bloomers, corsets,crinolines,etc), but it also reminds a bit of showgirls. I think ero lolita is more seductive? Than sexual, they always show just a bit of skin while maintaining that air of elegance and modesty I associate with lolita. It is easy to cross the line because it requires certain balance, unlike other lolita substyles.
Personally I have always felt that while lolita is about modesty, it has always been about *reclaiming* modesty for yourself rather than being modest for societal reasons. Policing how modest other itas are just falls back into puritanism, and while I understand the urge to keep lolita fasion "pure", there is also not anything wrong with showing skin or creating more erotic outfits still inspired by lolita fashion. As a trans woman, I know other trans women who don't even dress ero lolita but more traditional lolita and still get harassed for dressing too sexually, because trans women are just viewed as inherently sexual. I think we just need to stay out of people's business and let them dress how they want. The whole point of lolita to me is dressing how you want, not how other people expect you to. So it's ironic that the western community has so many rules about what you are and aren't allowed to do.
If Lolita fashion is about not attracting the Male Gaze, then I feel like Ero Lolita would be reclaiming a woman's body and choice. It's still not about attracting the Male Gaze - it's still Lolita at its roots. Being found attractive doesn't automatically make one "sexual." Just like shibari isn't inherently sexual. Or ones naked body isn't inherently sexual. Saying that someone must dress or execute something "modestly" is very ... well, it feels very shamey. After all, what I find modest and what you find modest are sure to differ.
After all, the whole push against SA Culture is that it's not clothes who hurt the victims. It's not the clothes that make someone sexy, but the ideals of the person viewing them. And why should someone be shamed out of wearing a certain style because some people are bad apples who would probably project their own ideals on to others anyway?
Why are bloomers and corsets and short skirts "inherently" sexual and erotic? They're not; most people have just been conditioned to believe so through forced modesty.
this is so good point. thank you
A rule I’d put for myself that I know some other people follow is if I take something away to make it ero like let’s say showing my hoop skirt I make sure to cover up my legs and shoulders/arms completely so take what I removed and add more elsewhere to balance it out if that makes any sense!
Ero Lolita makes Lolita accessible.
I live in the desert so wearing a ton of clothes that cover everything wouldn't be wise to do. I'm also disabled so I am much more vulnerable to overheating, fatigue, and pain so my clothes need to be "more simple/more ero" because of that. I love Lolita fashion but I could literally never do it with all the rules strictly held. Ero lolita is the only way I could ever be considered wearing lolita fashion due to this, which I always found to be rather ridiculous and privileged when there's so much negativity towards it. Also why wouldn't anyone also want to incorporate whatever else they like to wear into their coords? That's what fashion is all about, expressing yourself creatively through it. I understand why there's so much stigma around it all still sadly, but I hope that people can just.. let others be creative and love what they love. Putting too many rules and gatekeeping just defeats the purpose of expressing yourself differently.
at the end of the day, women/femmes/anyone historically oppressed by men, should always have a choice on how they style themselves. men dont want us to have choice and freedom, so expressing that freedom, to me, is the most feminist thing u can do. it would be different if people felt forced to be ero lolita for men, but i dont think that’s the case generally. if the style makes people feel empowered then thats awesome. but in any alt community there is a fear of posers corrupting the community somehow. we have to be more nuanced so that we don’t accidentally end up pushing away people who could otherwise find a lot of peace and comfort with us in our communities ❤
I had assumed, mainly based on manga, that lolita fashion was progressive and non-conformist, but this enforcement of modesty seems almost conservative. The implication that dressing in revealing clothes means you want to be sexualised is also concerning.
There is nothing wrong with liking modest clothes, if it makes you safer, even better, but moralising modesty and policing what other women wear will only benefit the types of men most likely to sexualise you.
lolita is an alt fashion, im always kinda surprised how some ppl are strict about rules. i think the divide in understanding is between the lolitas that just dress normal outside of lolita and those who are into other alt fashion as well. ppl should just learn to have more fun with it i think.
I think we should just take "what men think" about the way we dress out of the equation entirely
Especially with lolita being anti male gaze, cause like, its got nothing to do with them.
Also I love short skirts and dresses and the idea of them being inherently errotic is bizarre to me
Women should be allowed to reclaim eroticism on their terms just like with frilly cutesy femininity. Especially with the gothic aesthetics, those two go hand in hand. Ero Lolita doesn’t seem like something that goes against Lolita style, but expands on it like you said.
The western side of a lot of subcultures are way too harsh on anything that wants to embrace sexuality in a way that’s freeing or non exploitative.
God when I still wore the fashion I uploaded a coordinate photo in front of my bedroom door, where I would hang belts and harnesses waist chains for punk outfits. People were dragging me for posting a coord with my "BDSM" gear in the background.
I understand the presence of modesty rules, like you said. They stem from a fear of objectification. But I think what people miss with this is that in the end, it's the responsibility of others to not objectify people! All the cords you showed were totally not inherently sxual, and if creeps read something into those looks, that's their fault.
Thanks for the video! I’m glad I found you. I’ve wanted to wear Gothic Lolita fashion since 2017-not for cosplay or special occasions, but as my everyday casual style. When I started exploring the community, I was immediately discouraged. There were so many rules: you had to be extremely wealthy to afford Lolita clothing, only authentic dresses were acceptable (replicas were heavily criticized, for newbie we’ve not known what is authentic yet), frequent attendance at events was expected, and most importantly, you had to conform to Eurocentric beauty standards to be accepted.
I stepped away from Lolita fashion because of these rigid expectations and spent years in the Goth subculture instead. Later, I discovered Visual Kei and gained a deeper understanding of what Lolita fashion truly is. Now, I’m trying to reconnect and learn more about it again.
Good to see you have returned. I've been in the comm 2003~2008/09 and 2017~current. Overly rigid adherence to the "rules" (I see them more like guidelines) stifles creativity. Brand elitism though, I rarely see it anymore. The current lolita market has a lot of lower budget choices and people have generally accepted non japanese brands.
I'm lower income and have accumulated a wardrobe over the years by buying second hand, which (unless it's a very sought after piece) does tend to be cheaper than retail.
The replica topic; buying replicas that are produced for commercial purposes hurts (especially smaller) lolita brands and makes it difficult for them to continue to exist. This is why the community is generally against replicas. There is no good reason to buy them.
@ Thanks for sharing! Regarding replica clothing, I’ve come to realize that it’s similar to fast fashion, which goes against the values of alt subcultures like Goth and Lolita. Unfortunately, back then, people I met in community discouraged replicas not because of ethical concerns, but simply because they were cheap-while insisting that Lolita fashion had to be authentic by extremely expensive price. That felt arrogant and ignorant to me.
However, now that I understand the real issues with replicas and fast fashion, I truly appreciate having the opportunity to learn about Lolita fashion again.
@@hoangthypham6976 Sad to hear you were treated like that. There are a lot of lower budget brands right now that only offer original designs. Cheap is also not synonymous with low quality, although some lolitas use it that way. You can get cotton blouses under 20usd and cotton dresses under 50usd that are pretty decent and will last much longer than fast fashion.
What I've read about replicas is that they often have a bad quality to price ratio. They still cost 70~120usd but you can get much better quality for that price, replicas don't end up saving you any money and it would be better to save up and look for the original design second hand or wait for a rerelease.
I think ero lolita is fine as long as it’s done well. For me personally if you break to many rules in a subculture, it loses it identity. As long as it’s balanced with certain elements it would still count.I’m also sure some Lolita brands break a few rules, if not please correct me.
Ero Lolita is only controversial to noobs who cling to the rules and lack the expertise to pull it off themselves. Also, older experienced Lolita come off as “gatekeepers” because back in the EGL days we needed them because we had westerners legit wearing maido cosplays and calling it Lolita. There have legit been people trying to wear jean pants and call it Lolita because they wore bows and pink with it.
I also think people confuse ero lolita in glbs because not every “ero lolita” was Lolita. It was called Gothic AND Lolita Bible. There was gothic, lolita and everything in between showcased in the GLB.
My personal opinion? Ero is wonderful when done right. You can break some rules and still be Lolita as long as you don’t break all of them. But most importantly, you don’t have to label everything Lolita. It doesn’t make you less of a Lolita for wearing coords NOT purely Lolita. No one is gonna pull your Lolita card. People get too wrapped up in Lolita as a label.
I find Ero Lolita is just Gothic Lolita with slight sexier twist , yeah i mean the sexy in avant garde way not the traditional way , and i find its strange why community becoming way too hysterical about it **Facepalm**
@ I think Ero Lolita can be gothic OR Lolita. Depending on how Ero is styled it can be either. I don’t agree with it being sexy though, as sexy is objective. It definitely can have traditional fetish/gothic elements. It really depends on the individual coord. Ero style is very fluid imo.
I have mixed feelings. While I think that ero is often villainised in the community, I can also see how it can go wrong real fast. Like, some (but definitely not all) of lolita fashion is based on children's clothing and bringing even the slightest hint of eroticism into it can be a bad look on the whole community. Especially on the west where the book is more well known. But I also think most things people actually wear when they do an ero coord are not inherently sexual (chokers, bloomers, corsets, suspenders ect) so I don't see why some people make it a huge deal. My conclusion is: ero can be unsavoury and a bad look but most of the time it's quite tame and harmless and people need to chill out.
I understand that point. I think there are lines that can easily be crossed!! But for the most part, if done well, it's a really neat style!
@Carolmikuu yes 100%. I'd like to try the style myself one day because I like how unconventional it is.
Also, keep up the good work, your videos are really neat :DD
Let's be very careful here and not fall into "it could look weird if people misunderstand". Clothes cannot "go wrong". People outside of EGL will find us weird regardless of whether or not one skirt is a bit short. A grown adult woman can wear whatever she likes, it's not going to be "sexualizing children" no matter how ruffly your OP is. It's on an adult body. Falling into that rhetoric is falling in line with conservative ideals of "ooo the weirdly dressed queers are groomers" and such. Overall, I understand the urge to make sure people understand lolita isn't a kink, but I've noticed that we as a community are starting to lean towards the other extreme, ultravigilant, policing each other, and in some instances even acting anti-sex/anti-kink altogether. Watch out, friends.
@shinjitruther even as an adult, dressing child-like and sexual at the same time will invite a dangerous audience. An audience the lolita community has been trying to avoid for DECADES. It isn't our fault that creeps exist, but that doesn't mean we can allow them to feed off of our community.
Ero has absolutely no elements that look like children's clothing, it just looks like victorian underwear or boudoir/cabaret photoshoot stuff. People who are always thinking about children and pdfilia are weird.
As someone who got into lolita fashion around 2002/2003ish, I’ve actually always liked erololita. I liked to collect the G&L bibles back then and loved the diversity of styles it displayed. I really don’t know where “the rules” came from, but have always hated the gatekeeping that crops up in some lolita spaces. “The point is to not be sexualized” well did anyone tell the Japanese brands and communities that? Is it really a movement or is it just an aesthetic? Can it mean different things for different people? And what’s wrong with wanting to be sexy? I didn’t really delve into ero lolita myself but I had close friends who were raked across the coals for showing cleavage, wearing shorter skirts, or not wearing blouses under jsk. I wound up participating in a Steampunk group in about 2008? And I did wear a brown leather corset with brass bucks over a brown and pink clockwork op, and I got shit for ‘steam lolita’’not being a real lolita fashion’. I was laughing my ass off when steampunk inspired lolita looks started popping up in the G&L Bible,” and even more so when Alice and the Pirates premiered. I came to prefer fashion communities with broader themes rather than strictly lolita since there was less gatekeeping and more room for creativity and expression. I’m sure there are smaller communities that aren’t so catty but unfortunately what I experienced was not so pleasant.
Ero Lolita leans more towards goth inspo than it does historical under garments to me, which makes the ones that include fetish wear easier to understand. Not a huge fan of a lot of ero, but if they’re enjoying themselves, then that’s all I care about 😎
Also I agree with the sentiment of keeping it modest, I think that should be the only real “rule” to Lolita. ❤
Ik theres always gonna be controversial shit in subcultures but long as no ones getting hurt i could give less of a shit lol
yes go go ^^
Sometimes, people who are alt or into some alt subculture get so purist of said subculture that they make a new status quo inside that group. So there will be people who want to break the rules always. Imagine being the weirdo between the "weirdos"... i mean, it gets hillarious at some point. Just let people have their own personality.
imagin being so gatekeepy that you cling to rules someone made up and not able to let it go
i think in general, western (no idea on other groups) lolitas have an issue with being not just against sexualizing the style (which i can understand), but with taking it to the extremes of being anti-sex (or anti-sex worker). this moves Beyond ero lolita styles, but some are so afraid of being misunderstood, they want to force lolitas to be pure in a very gross and shaming way. i can't speak for how often that sort of thing occurs as a whole, but it's not uncommon for me to see stories of people who treat being a lolita almost like a badge of moral superiority and purity over others in their pursuit of not having the style misrepresented as sexual in nature- even talking down about other alt styles that are more revealing in nature as if they're lesser than lolita.
i don't see why it should be like that, honestly? a lot of us are fully grown adults, with full lives. i work at little caesars and i drink and i am not a stranger to adult interactions with my peers. i keep it separate from my lolita stuff, because i don't feel good conflating the two (and ero lolita doesn't conflate those things in any case). it feels gross to police people's private lives in such a manner- some people are so bad about it, that even having a large bust or rear is considered bad sometimes because those are sexualized by people (though they are not and should not be sexualized, theyre just body parts), even when wearing excessively modest cuts.
i dont really know where im going with this comment, other than there are many in the lolita community that seem so scared of being misunderstood (which is understandable), but instead of trying to mitigate misunderstanding by education or literally any other way, they want to police people so hard that having a body shape they deem "sexy" is bad, or having a private life separate to your lolita fashion is bad, or wearing corsets/shorter skirt shapes/more casual coords is bad. it's better than it used to be from my knowledge, but it's still enough to make me feel anxious. i cant be a lolita in public or i'm a pervert because being an adult wearing cute long dresses is "perverted" i guess, but i can't be a lolita online because i'm also a grown adult with my own adult life and don't live to satisfy some person's idea of being a morally pure doll in every interaction i have outside of lolita. does anyone get what i'm trying to say or is this word salad
I've just recently found this Chanel and I've been loving it, please keep doing what you're doing! I've been struggling to find lolita fashion RUclipsrs I enjoy
this was rlly interesting!! also the slight clicky sound that ur accessories make while ur gesticulating is rlly lovely to listen to hehe♡♡
Moon Kana is the GOAT I can't stand the hate she used to get for dressing ero or break the rules
So I'm goth and I participate in many, many different substyles and one of them happens to be EGL. I never knew that some of how I was dressing could be considered Ero Lolita since with my co-ords and general outfits I often wear chokers/collars, high-highs and corsets since those go hand-in-hand with the rest of my style. I would've never even considered some of those elements as Ero since they're just a part of my regular wardrobe but it's interesting to know. I also as a general rule prefer the silhouette of short skirts, especially since I'm short. That's hella interesting! ❤
For femmes and women i feel like it really doesnt matter how "modest" you dress, a man may still sexalize you because he just doesnt care for your autonomy and boundaries. maybe too serious of an example, but even muslim women who wear hijab and long flowy dresses to hide their curves will get sexualized by predatory men. its the unfortunate reality of living in a patriarchal society.. i think policing eachother is doing way more harm than good, when the true culprit are disrespectful and gross men. while i understand the core sentiment of these strict rules, i feel like lolita and alternative fashion in general should be more about uplifting eachother, and standing together. though to be fair im into gothic lolita and vkei styles mostly, so maybe my mindset is just different
Your eye make-up is mesmerizing. When you opened your eyes at the start of the video I was so confused for a second, lovely!
7:12 stirs the pot and ruffles some feathers.
i hate going on the lolita subreddit sometimes because they are so annoying about skirt length and showing shoulders
Last time I went to r/lolita it was a cesspit. I do not expect it to have changed much. I recommend looking for communities on fb or discord instead.
I genuinely think people should just be able to dress however they want
I'm casualy into lolita fashion and I didn't know "just showing arms" is considered ero-lolita. I don't like that name either, knowing that makes me enjoy lolita label less, it felt like people in ero-lolita style are sexualized by traditional lolita, not to my vibe. Beautyful look btw, thank you for interesting video
Haha. I love lolita fashion (As an observer that can only partake via my art, since buying a whole new wardrobe is expensive), but I can't get behind the purity culture so prevalent in lolita spaces. I generally avoid partaking in subcultures because of how conformist they can be (even the self-proclaimed "counter culture" or "non-conformist" ones)
thats so interesting! i always use ero lolita as an example when i explain to people that lolita isnt sexual, because even in the substyle that is more sexualized, there are still slight rules, and what i often see is while most lolitas have cuter looks and makeup, ero lolita goes more into fetish wear and more 'mature looking' makeup, so again, its another point that lolita never meant to sexualize little girls (i have to explain this a lot that the style has nothing to do with the novel of the same name
Thats why its such a strange juxtaposition factor of western lolita community that expecting a Lolita fashion which the nature as an alternative fashion to challenging conformity have to expected to be stay in comformistic set list of dogma , No surprise this act is done for the sake to repels some posers because they want the fashion to be taken seriously
I think that because Western society doesn’t really find shoulders and thighs sexual, calling it erotic makes it seem a little uncomfortable. It feels like by calling it erotic it fetishizes showing skin in general, which goes against the spirit of Lolita. (wearing what you want for yourself. not others.) It seems to be a difference of culture and a bit of a translation issue. But Idk. I just don’t find it very sexy. At most it feels like artistic nudity. Like showing skin to represent being vulnerable. And being comfortable with that vulnerability is amazing!! I honestly don’t have an issue with Ero Lolita. Showing skin like that is fine!! Just. Calling it “erotic” feels counterproductive. That’s my take. For now at least.
And yet, junior high school & HS girls can be humiliated by teachers and forced to cover up for showing shoulders or too much leg skin in the USA, so I don't think this is necessarily true
@ Yeah I suppose that’s true. Maybe it’s just that I don’t personally find it sexy? I’m not sure. Although it is a lot more normalized in the West. At least in Younger people.
I knew one girl way back who was obsessed with Lolita clothes to the point that she was a snob about it. She was into the standard pastel colors, classic silhouettes, below the knee skirts and intricate looking laces. I wouldn’t have minded her overall personality or fashion statements, but when she said that girls with darker skin (tanned or born with) shouldn’t wear Lolita clothes I started avoiding her like the bubonic plague. I’ve let it slide when she talked absolute trash about me speaking English and not being “feminine” enough, but the skin color talk is where I drew the line.
to be honest I think everyone should have the freedom to wear what they want and the right to feel like they belong. at the same time, I also agree that everyone should have the freedom to criticize and openly dislike an aesthetic, as long as they keep things respectful. debating ideas with real arguments keep things fun! fashion shouldn't be a war, fashion should be a way to express yourself and the things you have inside your head!! and to hear/see what others are thinking. BUT my real issue with ero and fetish fashion in general is how people can't seem to choose the occasions to wear it properly. you shouldn't go around in lingerie and fetish accessories to a public space. we live in society and while is very admirable to see people going against the norms, some things are just really innapropriate... especially for kids to see. I don't like children at all but unfortunately the world is full of them and people has to understand that. problematics aside I think it all comes to using common sense while having fun.
I agree and disagree. Should you as a kinkster wear a gimp suit to a anime convention? Probably not - other people did not consent to be part of a scene with you. But if you're wearing a few accessories that are sexual in nature it really isn't that big of a deal. There's a shared responsibility between the wearer and the public. People should be able to talk to their kids and answer questions but adults shouldn't also get to take their kids to adult space and then dictate "Think of the children" because they didn't read the room and brought their kid.
Sure , as a non-Western person (( a South East Asian person obviously )), I”m surprised that western Lolita Community often taking Lolita Fashion In competitive direction (( American Lolita fashion community being the most competitive in the West )), making it more like a popularity contest but in contrast juxtaposition , I”m not surprised that western Lolita fashion community often taking Lolita fashion in rather dogmatic approach
In a world of fashion that ever changing and ever evolving , it is sounded unrealistic to expect it in simply in conformistic area forever
I don’t want sounded hypocrite that I ever considered myself a dumb non American \ non-westerner , sure that I might not be able to changes somebody perspective about how people perceive me
I know for many Lolita”s , this fashion is so meaningful for them and some of them feel mad and unhappy if the fashion is being misinterpreted , That”s why I Don”t want to give a simplistic naive defense of “Its just a clothes “ because I don’t want offend any Lolita’s
I think it is a sub genre of its own, just from looking at the street snaps and moon Kana ,it looks more like the style came from clubbing and has more gothic influences than lolita fashion
i dont find it very male gazey at all considering history of eroticism in japan and how in western victorian sense the ANKLES were very scandalous so the butt makes them pass away bc of how scandalous that could be. i find it very feminist and self love actually
I'm so happy to see more lolita RUclipsrs making more content and yours has been such an utter delight!!!
oh my trip down memory lane, how I wish to be in the 2000s again, rip youth, didnt know this was still a thing, thank you
might be controversial but I'll say, i'm fine with it as long as it's done tastefully, It's just not my thing- my worry is the impression it gives to the outside world, people aren't as understanding and already think the fashion as a whole is some kind of fetish thing. Don't think my own personal worry is strong enough to warrant shutting the whole thing down! And i'm definitely not gonna knock anyone for doing it!
lolita fashion is a street fashion or alternative fashion and i feel like gatekeeping what is and isn't lolita isn't a very not alternative, i love lolita and would like to be able to participate without being told i'm wrong for not wearing a petticoat or under shirt, i am quite large and very few companies, not even lady sloth, have dresses that fit me, i have very bad sensory issues and the fabric most petticoats are made out of would drive me crazy, not to mention that i can't find a single petticoat in my size, i also run very warm and live in a very warm area where the coldest we really get is 60 degrees farenheit, undershirts would make me sweat like crazy. this has less to do with "ero lolita" and more with the way the western lolita community treats people who don't follow the rules, i personally wouldn't include certian things from ero lolita into my (hypothetical) co-ords like corsets and garterbelts but just because of my body shape and me not wearing an undeershirt i can see myself getting catigorized as an "ero lolita" or fetishizer of lolita fashion with out given the chance to explain. i love lolita and i'd love to take part in it, i've started looking into making my own dresses so i can partake in it, but the lolita rules often make me feel like i'm doing something wrong or offesnive for having my own limitations.
now onto actual ero lolita, given the context of the book, which i know is not where the fashion sense comes from but is what a lot of westerners think of when hearing the term, doesn't really feel apropriate in the name, whether it should be classified as not a lolita subfashion or have a different name i don't know. i knew of lolita fashion before i everheard of the book but the way that the book has been misrepresented as a piece of fetish work thanks to the movie adaptaions and the sexualization of brands like dolls kill and musical artisits like lana del rey, it has come to be a bit of a touchy subject for some people. i do not think lolita itself needs a name change, but catagorizing the word "ero" with the word "lolita" feels weird to me, however i wouldn't tell someone wearing "ero lolita" they're a bad person or demonize them for their fashion choices, i'd probably actually enjoy their fit and compliment them.
i think self expression is really importatnt and fashion is a really great way to express yourself, sometimes i don't even feel like myself until i'm all dressed up (which in reality isn't very great but it helps me feel good). I think the demonization of a fashion style because of the way society has created context around it is awful, this applies to more than lolita or "ero lolita", a lot of subcultres like punk and goth are about more than the fashion but the way people treat those who dress in certian alternative styles, or really any alternative styles, is bad and full of bigotry. some of the lolita rules feel to me a way to filter out certian people in a bigoted way, the way people who do not partake in alternative fashion use their judgment of alternative fashion and subcultures to write off someone as bad. the only thing that really bothers me about "ero lolita" is the name, but some people feel that way about just "lolita", infact i used to about lolita as well once i learned about the book but now i don't, so who knows maybe in a year or two when i have more experience and know more i won't feel that way anymore.
TLDR: the words "ero" and "lolita" feel weird as a combo for me but the fashion is cool. lolita fashion is an alternative fashion and lolita rules is just gatekeeping for the most part, some of which rules read as abelist and fatphobic, which is what the "normies" do to almost all alternitive people. gatekeeping isn't cool, everyone has their own personal circumstances and treating them badly for doing something outside of your rules, lolita or not, isn't cool.
I dislike rigidly adhering to "the rules" and forcing that mindset on other people. But lolita does have guidelines (which can be broken or bent successfully by people who have developed an eye for the fashion) that act both as a useful framework for beginners as well as distinguishing the fashion from other fashions. I've noticed that the people who say lolita has no rules, or that it shouldn't have rules because it's an alternative fashion, tend to have outfits that aren't lolita but they want to be able to label them as such. There are exceptions of course.
If you're so fat you can't even find clothes that fit you that sounds like a you problem tbh...
The excuse of 'ero lolita caters to the male gaze so it defeats the purpose' doesnt really work when every kind of lolita unfortunately still gets sexualised by men... Its just men
I never understood the phrase "dressing for the male gaze". Im a woman, so im aware of the world around me. Hell even i dress a bit more masc to as a way to tell men "im not interested". But even then that's a tiny reason why i dress that way. I dress that way cuz i like to, not just to detour men.
I completely understand if dressing a certin way helps you gain more confidence and control especially in a society that says we shouldn't have any, but still even if we dress super modest and pure or super sexy, men will still be men at the end of the day so why not just dress how you want. Mabye i sound like im talkin outta my ass but that's what i think.
Also very ironic for lolita purest to be talking about reclaiming femininity while scoffing at collar bones and bare shoulders.
i love ero and bittersweet. im happy to find lolitafashion.
You're very well-spoken and I'm very happy I found your channel. I've wanted to see new creators within the lolita sphere for some time now. Looking forward to seeing how your content evolves, cheering you on.
For ero lolita, I believe many people dismissing it simply don't understand how it looks... but I'm not saying this as a way to look down on critics. I've been involved with this style for a many years now and only recently 'understood' it. It's one of those aspects of lolita that become clearer with community exchange, no matter how much research you do on your own.
If we define ero as a style that includes accessories with a history of sexual/intimate connotation (eg. corsets, lingerie-inspired gear, collars such as those made by raspberrymazohyst), I think that opens up a really exciting possibility to 'reclaim' this type of accessorising for a non-sexual context. If anything, I think ero lolita could be an innovative way to express a sentiment similar to the feminist roots at the inception of the wider lolita subculture, what with reclaiming your own personal brand of hyperfemininity. It's also an interesting bridge over to aspects of goth. Corsets, PVC fabrics, and other ero lolita aspects all appear in various typed of gothic fashion-it's not really surprising to see these in lolita as the fashion aspects of these subcultures in many cases overlap.
If clothing isn't used in a purposefully sexual context I don't think it should be categorised as inherently sexual, which ero lolita explores in really creative ways.
Before anyone points this out: no, goth isn't a fashion subculture, but it undeniably has an array of fashion styles associated with it... with many taking influence from victorian fashion
I hope my thoughts on this make sense.
Might not super related with Ero Lolita but when I once a member of Rufflechat (( But no longer a member anymore )) ,
There is one of dress with black and pink colour combo that has a BDSM bunny print that riles the entire Rufflechat to a Reee fest due to that risqué print
And even a that time I feel want to complaining that a lots of members are being over dramatic and I even says that it is unrealistic to expect an alternative fashion simply just staying on lane of comformistic approach
In my opinion, showing more skin (as long that you are not showing anything like your butt or something) shouldn't count as sexy or anything. Where I live is almost always very hot and I wouldnt SURVIVE if I wore clothes that cover my entire body all the time. However, when you start adding "fetish accessories" , I truly do believe that it's not ok to still call it lolita, since lolita fashion is all about modesty and looking cute and blablabla, you can't achieve that using fetish items since the whole point of lolita is to not be sexualized lol
I have almost the same vintage nightgown and I wore it w my coordinates I feel so valid ;w;
personally I'm a big fan of ero lolita, wish more people understood it😢
Tbh I don't really get all the discourse, clothes are clothes. Correcting or giving a heads up to a person who is going against the normality of a genre they claim is okay I guess. But attacking people who just incorporate Lolita clothes into their outfits is just weird. All the labels and sub-genre can be a double edged sword I guess.
In my personal opinion I find it really upsetting how gatekeepy and honestly mean/unwelcoming the Lolita community can get sometimes- I think as long as people are dressing respectfully that there’s nothing wrong with deconstructing some of the rules attached to the fashion style and people need to stop being so judgmental of others who like to be a bit more experimental with their fashion as after all at the end of the day I think fashion should be fun and expressive of individuality!!! As you said there’s obviously a line, but I see nothing wrong with people wearing skirts that are a bit shorter or having exposed shoulders or elements like chokers and corsets!!! As long as people are dressing respectfully I don’t see a problem at all
I am not that experienced in that culture but i think everyone should be able to express themselves how they want and be able to have their own unique appearance
The issue with that is that J fashion sub-cultures have specific guidelines to be considered a part of that community. It isn't much of a western idea where there is more openness or lack of conceptual recognition of sub-cultures and why a specific person goes into them. Like the complex reasons a girl would be gravitated towards gyaru as an example. Even gyaru isn't a thing that can truly be experienced in the west.
@@MingusDynastyy I understand that there is a community part to it, I don’t mean to offend anyone. The problem is probably the name. I don’t think there would be that much of a problem if they stop labelling it as something it’s not.
@@tawny1686 Yeah that's pretty much the issue basically lol. Which westerners trying to get into complex j-fashion have a hard time understanding what it means to be in there then either being too conservative with rules that don't matter, like what she was mentioning or not knowing what it means to be in that culture
omg a lolita commentary content creator! i subscribed!
in jspsn dressing lolita or any style is mostly about going against the norm, where as in the west it is just sticking to another norm.
Ero Lolita doesn't fit under the Lolita Umbrella to some people, then.
I’m just goth but i buy a lot of secondhand clothes from lolita and even gyaru brands and mix them into my personal style. it’s really elevated my wardrobe! I don’t wear skirts/dresses so I’ll never really get into ero lolita but it’s one of my favorite styles on other people. I do take lots of notes from them for my own more “Victorian” outfits, especially how they layer, or style bloomers.
I understand wanting to preserve the subculture, but some of the people complaining are obviously Puritanically minded. if your quest to eliminate the male gaze circles back to slut shaming you’ve lost the plot…. I also see a lot of people saying ero lolita looks cheap, but that really just depends on the quality of the clothes and not the style itself. as someone else said if Mana-Sama did it then it’s fair game lol
I always wanted to be lolita, as Ive been a fan of it since like, 12 when I first discovered it, but I have autism whoch leads to issues with processing temperature. I am always overheating. Once I learned about the layers, I gave up on my lolita dreams 😭 Im goth, and alt- ero lolita with less layers is literally the only way I could get lolita adjacent and be in the community. Im ace, I dont wven see ero lolita as sexual, even if it tries to be 😭
Im almost 20- Ive been a fam of it for almost a decade and have had to stay away due to the layers that would make me overheat
I'd love to chime in with my two cents, as someone who has no affiliation with the Lolita culture, but someone who appreciates the hell out of it, HOWEVER, I do have some cred in that I am a part of the alt scene (so punk, emo, goth, tbh I don't subscribe to a particular category, that's why I just say alt) who also will wear things associated with fetish wear. I can understand wanting to somewhat gatekeep the Lolita style. I have such an innate hatred of the 'clean goth' micro-trend that was hot for a second, mostly because Goth, is more about the music. Some people can't wear clothes or makeup associated with the culture due to whatever reasons.
I also do understand why a lot of people, particularly Western Lolita folks, don't want people to dress up for the sexualisation, and due to the fact that for a lot of people not in the culture will see Lolita and think of the book/movie. But with saying all this, it does feel weird to hate on people within a specific subgroup. Even with my annoyance of the 'clean goth' micro-trend, I don't actively hate people who do it, and I hope that maybe they can get into Goth as a whole (though I do have #feelings on the whole 'clean' and 'pure' suffixes of these micro-trends, but I digress). While I might dress sexual when I go out to a club, to be honest, 100000% of the time, I'm not dressing for attention from men. Firstly, I am dressing for myself. I like to wear chain harnesses, and short skirts, and chokes and stuff like that. But also, if there's a "gaze" I'm dressing for, it's really just the gaze and attention from my partner (who is a woman). I also dress for basically anyone who isn't a cis man.
And I understand that Lolita isn't something that's meant to be sexualised. But tbh, men will often find a way to sexualise women. No matter what they're wearing.
I honestly love ero lolita, early 2010s comm tried to imfluence me against it. Will def try my own ero coord soon.
13:05 these all seem to be western Lolitas, but maybe you can find a way of asking older Japanese Lolitas (or even ‘newer’ that aren’t babies) to ask them what they think
I think it is good for warmer climate
I think the western community is goo gatekeepy. It's what made scared of wearing lolita as a teen. I was broke (and still lowkey am), and yes my dresses are from AliExpress (I only have 3 or 4 of them, because even from AliExpress, I couldn't afford much of them-)
Now I don't really care, and mostly will call my fashion "lolita inspired" and stuff. But ngl for me I root for ero lolita. I don't think ""sexualization"" has to be made for the male gaze, and I think it can be just a sort of rebellion on the fact that women are expected to be modest, and that "to not be sexualized, you must be modest" which kinda sounds victim blamey imo:/
So yeah, it's why I tend to stay away from the community for these reasons...
I absolutely adore your makeup
I just found your channel today from this video I’m definitely subscribing this video is great also ps ur makeup and outfit are beautiful ❤
This debate seems a little dated to me now. Do western lolitas still care so much about ero lolita? About showing knees and shoulders? I don't find it to be true so much anymore but maybe I am not where these conversations take place. The only "rule" that I think makes a coordinate lolita or not lolita is, if there is a petticoat.