I asked this question on another channel and was pretty much told "its a waste of time" and dismissed the question as, I felt, idiotic. Reason I asked was I had been using this method for quite sometime as it makes complete sense. (i no longer watch that channel because of the answer given.) Thanks Keith!!!!
Every expert will develop their opinion and position based on their experience. I've been using dwell time in the sizing die for quite some time. It' the way I was taught so I don't plan on changing. I don't have a channel and I'm not an expert and I don't compete. But I do have a lot of rifles that shoot a lot of caliber sized groups. My gun builder said he'd mentor me if I wanted to take up benchrest since he's been doing it for a long time.
I have been a mechanic for more than forty five years and worked with a number of different metals, and it makes sense to me as well. As I posted on here earlier, metals have "memory", and brass work hardens, so putting it under stress to form then keeping there long enough to "relax" seems reasonable.
Ok its been a couple weeks since I saw your " dwell" video. So I gave it a try....10 seconds dwell.... WOW what a difference. Been loading for a while,using good gear and SAC dies, but after a few uses of my brass i was having hard chambering issues. All my measurements seemed right on ,but still having issues. I anneal every go round,trim chamfer etc. I check my rounds with an RCBS chamber gauge and I would have to lightly push them into the gauge. I figured I was oversized a couple 10ths. But now with dwell they drop into the gauge and go into battery like butter. Gotta say I was surprised. Also this is the 15 th loading on this batch of brass and it shoots sub 1/2 moa. So,better chambering and more accurate results. I'm a believer, DWELL works. And I owe you a big thank you.
I’ve tried to help friends out with this. They just won’t accept it matters on the shoulder bump consistency. 95% of my 100 pcs of brass come out exactly the same down to .001 with a 15 second dwell time. Depending on if they’ve all been fired with the same powder charge. Not a load developed lot of brass. Those tend to very due to lower powder charges during development. Thanks again Keith!
Is there actual evidence that it makes a difference whether you hold the brass still inside the die? I would think that all the deformation happens within milliseconds of contact with the surfaces inside the die.
Have seen the raw data used to determine induction annealing procedures - it is the time taken to getting up to temperature and holding at that temperature for long enough that is critical. The flame verse induction is personal preference - and patience level, wrong settings or not enough time in heat zone, then you don't get a full annealing in both setups and too much just kills the case. I trust my AMP set up to do the job and do it more consistentthan I can flame it, others trust their flame but also have routine adjustments in the course of the session as the bottles become empty and dropping pressure. You can't anneal one side only. It must be uniform for the entire neck - and induction annealing is a lot easier to do this and why the case manufacturers use this process rather than flame. The early at home process used flame as it is a lot cheaper up front and don't need complex maths to get it setup. The distrust in the AMP is that the codes at the start didn't make sense in the difference between the settings and you couldn't see it doing the job and some came out not visibly marked depending on the brass.
I do this with a slightly compressed load i run in my 223. The extra time taken stops them "growing" after i have seated the projectile. Never thought to incorporate it into sizing brass though.
While it seems like a very simple thing it makes all the sense in the world to me. Metals have "memory" so to speak and giving the case just a bit to take form and then "relax" seems plausible to me. I am just about to start my adventure of reloading at the young age of 60 and I will start with a single stage press I think??? And I will take just that little bit of time to let the case stay in the die and "relax". I am not a high volume shooter, but I do hunt hogs pretty often here in Texas and when there are large sounders in an open field a lot of lead can fly. Thanks for the tip.
In my "loose" chambers of hunting calibers / rifles i mostly calibrate the casenecks for better alignment. In my tight chambers ( 6xc, 6,5x47,...) i calibrate full, especially when the chamber/ barrel was really hot.
I've seen other videos where they tested sizing and turning the brass 90degrees in the holder and then running it up again. Some said it made a difference some not. I think annealing and how well this is done and when it's done would also affect end results. Brass brands will be another factor that will likely show different results as they all have different formulas and thickness will vary. I think the only way to know would be for each person to do there own testing because of the number of variables involved to determine if it made a difference. You would need to start with virgin brass and record every bit of data for quite awhile to enough data to prove it out. But, if you could show it did make a difference, wow that would be a free way of improving scores!
I'll try it but I think the extra cartridges I would load not waiting for the dwell time will help my shooting more than the slight difference in the accuracy I will get with the dwell time.
I’ve always heard guys say they get spring-back and their brass grows. I’ve measured mine and can’t find any instance of this happening to mine. I suppose it’s because I always anneal and when I FL size, I count 1-2-3 before lowering the ram?
@winninginthewind Would you say that consistent shoulder bump has an impact on accuracy? If so, how significant and how does that translate from a F class rifle to a hunting rifle?
Unrelated to dwell time, but I wonder if the temperature of the die makes a difference to how the case is sized? A warmer die has expanded some, possibly increasing the tolerances? A cold die would be tighter ect
Really look forward to your videos and advice but have a question for new rifle brass do you size brand new cases and if so do you FL or just neck ?? Thanks !!
I press to the down position - grease up the next shell - then lift it up - put the next shell in and push it down leaving it in that position until the next shell has been greased..
While new to reloading, I was doing that anyway, as it just seemed the right thing to do. An unrelated question if I may please. Do you anneal before or after sizing?
I anneal every reload now and find it controls any spring back. (That I’ve measured for) Not a top level player but I have seen more consistency when I anneal every time.
Metallurgy does not work that way. Brass rebound has little to do with dwell time and much more with allowing for spring back. Bump back 0.5 thou further and don't worry about the dwell time for maximum reliability.
There seems to be an assumption that metallurgy is the driver for this. I'm torn on whether it's partially metallurgy and part human performance (not short-stroking the press) or just the later. Either way, it works. There might also be a difference between and over-centered press situation and a gapped shellholder situation (2 ways to set up a sizing die).
Let's try this again. I think,for some reason, either you or RUclips deleted my reply,which was a question for you Keith. If I offended you in any way, my sincerest apologies. I would very much like for you to show us your " dwell" procedure. And hopefully I can make it work with my equipment. Thanks, I'm a faithful watcher and very much value your knowledge.
When pro shooters anneal brass are they trying for softer brass? Then dont dunk it in water. When i make knives att my forge i let it cool, on its own till its the right color. THE LONGER Ieave it cool softer it gets.
I asked this question on another channel and was pretty much told "its a waste of time" and dismissed the question as, I felt, idiotic. Reason I asked was I had been using this method for quite sometime as it makes complete sense. (i no longer watch that channel because of the answer given.)
Thanks Keith!!!!
Every expert will develop their opinion and position based on their experience. I've been using dwell time in the sizing die for quite some time. It' the way I was taught so I don't plan on changing. I don't have a channel and I'm not an expert and I don't compete. But I do have a lot of rifles that shoot a lot of caliber sized groups. My gun builder said he'd mentor me if I wanted to take up benchrest since he's been doing it for a long time.
I have been a mechanic for more than forty five years and worked with a number of different metals, and it makes sense to me as well. As I posted on here earlier, metals have "memory", and brass work hardens, so putting it under stress to form then keeping there long enough to "relax" seems reasonable.
@@EC-mc7vgYes spring back is real
Ok its been a couple weeks since I saw your " dwell" video. So I gave it a try....10 seconds dwell.... WOW what a difference. Been loading for a while,using good gear and SAC dies, but after a few uses of my brass i was having hard chambering issues. All my measurements seemed right on ,but still having issues. I anneal every go round,trim chamfer etc. I check my rounds with an RCBS chamber gauge and I would have to lightly push them into the gauge. I figured I was oversized a couple 10ths. But now with dwell they drop into the gauge and go into battery like butter. Gotta say I was surprised. Also this is the 15 th loading on this batch of brass and it shoots sub 1/2 moa. So,better chambering and more accurate results. I'm a believer, DWELL works. And I owe you a big thank you.
Interesting. Sounds like you’ve done a lot of research on this. What dwell time do you recommend?
I’ve tried to help friends out with this. They just won’t accept it matters on the shoulder bump consistency. 95% of my 100 pcs of brass come out exactly the same down to .001 with a 15 second dwell time. Depending on if they’ve all been fired with the same powder charge. Not a load developed lot of brass. Those tend to very due to lower powder charges during development. Thanks again Keith!
If I’m not mistaken Zediker in his “Top Grade Ammo” recommended 5 sec.
Is there actual evidence that it makes a difference whether you hold the brass still inside the die? I would think that all the deformation happens within milliseconds of contact with the surfaces inside the die.
I have been doing this for a long time now,
My reasoning was to help prevent brass spring back.
There is also a dwell component with annealing brass. A time/temperature if you will. Leads to some distrust of induction vs combustion annealing.
Have seen the raw data used to determine induction annealing procedures - it is the time taken to getting up to temperature and holding at that temperature for long enough that is critical. The flame verse induction is personal preference - and patience level, wrong settings or not enough time in heat zone, then you don't get a full annealing in both setups and too much just kills the case.
I trust my AMP set up to do the job and do it more consistentthan I can flame it, others trust their flame but also have routine adjustments in the course of the session as the bottles become empty and dropping pressure.
You can't anneal one side only. It must be uniform for the entire neck - and induction annealing is a lot easier to do this and why the case manufacturers use this process rather than flame. The early at home process used flame as it is a lot cheaper up front and don't need complex maths to get it setup.
The distrust in the AMP is that the codes at the start didn't make sense in the difference between the settings and you couldn't see it doing the job and some came out not visibly marked depending on the brass.
I do this with a slightly compressed load i run in my 223. The extra time taken stops them "growing" after i have seated the projectile. Never thought to incorporate it into sizing brass though.
I believe inevitably the question of annealing brass, is going to have to come up.
I do two runs on the progressive. Case prep and loading. I dwell through both runs and I'm getting more consistent ammo.
I hadn’t considered dwell time on sizing, although I practice it when I seat bullets.
While it seems like a very simple thing it makes all the sense in the world to me. Metals have "memory" so to speak and giving the case just a bit to take form and then "relax" seems plausible to me. I am just about to start my adventure of reloading at the young age of 60 and I will start with a single stage press I think??? And I will take just that little bit of time to let the case stay in the die and "relax". I am not a high volume shooter, but I do hunt hogs pretty often here in Texas and when there are large sounders in an open field a lot of lead can fly. Thanks for the tip.
In my "loose" chambers of hunting calibers / rifles i mostly calibrate the casenecks for better alignment. In my tight chambers ( 6xc, 6,5x47,...) i calibrate full, especially when the chamber/ barrel was really hot.
I've seen other videos where they tested sizing and turning the brass 90degrees in the holder and then running it up again. Some said it made a difference some not. I think annealing and how well this is done and when it's done would also affect end results. Brass brands will be another factor that will likely show different results as they all have different formulas and thickness will vary. I think the only way to know would be for each person to do there own testing because of the number of variables involved to determine if it made a difference. You would need to start with virgin brass and record every bit of data for quite awhile to enough data to prove it out. But, if you could show it did make a difference, wow that would be a free way of improving scores!
Yep been doing this for awhile. Certainly helps with "springback" on cheaper brass too
I'll try it but I think the extra cartridges I would load not waiting for the dwell time will help my shooting more than the slight difference in the accuracy I will get with the dwell time.
I’ve always heard guys say they get spring-back and their brass grows. I’ve measured mine and can’t find any instance of this happening to mine.
I suppose it’s because I always anneal and when I FL size, I count 1-2-3 before lowering the ram?
I found that extending the ram and holding it for a "1000-1" count improved my shoulder bump consistency.
Thanks for the tip. 👍
@winninginthewind Would you say that consistent shoulder bump has an impact on accuracy? If so, how significant and how does that translate from a F class rifle to a hunting rifle?
Let it cook for 5 seconds turn it 180* run it again for 5 seconds
Thats what i do.
Unrelated to dwell time, but I wonder if the temperature of the die makes a difference to how the case is sized? A warmer die has expanded some, possibly increasing the tolerances? A cold die would be tighter ect
The die would be a slightly different size. Whether that would make a critical difference would be quite the experiment.
I "dwell time" on the powder measure at the top when its filling, letting it rest for a second or two.
Really look forward to your videos and advice but have a question for new rifle brass do you size brand new cases and if so do you FL or just neck ??
Thanks !!
I press to the down position - grease up the next shell - then lift it up - put the next shell in and push it down leaving it in that position until the next shell has been greased..
Thank you
To many other variables involved to make an informed determination. Brass composition/quality, firings, chamber print vs die specs…..
Found this out when sizing formed 300 Blackout from 223/556 brass. All the difference in the world.
you maybe wonder for a brief second and then think " Send it" 😀
While new to reloading, I was doing that anyway, as it just seemed the right thing to do.
An unrelated question if I may please.
Do you anneal before or after sizing?
You should anneal before sizing!
@@clausziegler5720 Thank you for that, greatly appreciated 🙂.
I anneal every reload now and find it controls any spring back. (That I’ve measured for)
Not a top level player but I have seen more consistency when I anneal every time.
Metallurgy does not work that way. Brass rebound has little to do with dwell time and much more with allowing for spring back. Bump back 0.5 thou further and don't worry about the dwell time for maximum reliability.
There seems to be an assumption that metallurgy is the driver for this. I'm torn on whether it's partially metallurgy and part human performance (not short-stroking the press) or just the later. Either way, it works. There might also be a difference between and over-centered press situation and a gapped shellholder situation (2 ways to set up a sizing die).
@@winninginthewind whatever works :-)
Let's try this again. I think,for some reason, either you or RUclips deleted my reply,which was a question for you Keith. If I offended you in any way, my sincerest apologies. I would very much like for you to show us your " dwell" procedure. And hopefully I can make it work with my equipment. Thanks, I'm a faithful watcher and very much value your knowledge.
That’s weird, I certainly haven’t deleted any comments.
I’m planning a little follow-up after this next match, when I get a chance to size again.
I don't know, didn't think you did, anyway thanks.
Is that a spring buttstock on your rifle to cushion recoil ?
Yes, it spreads the recoil impulse over a longer period of time. Making it less jarring.
@@winninginthewind nice 👍 can’t that be attached to any rifle ? Or is it just for that stock ?
Dwell time? Sure, if you don't anneal everytime.
When pro shooters anneal brass are they trying for softer brass? Then dont dunk it in water. When i make knives att my forge i let it cool, on its own till its the right color. THE LONGER Ieave it cool softer it gets.
Brass and copper react differently from carbon steel. Quenching doesn’t have the same effect.
👍👍🤝🤝