There's... A lot i disagree with here. Removal of Sol Ring is always insane, but aside from that i think you are leaning way too heavily into getting multiple landfalls a turn. You only manifest dread if its the first time the ability triggers each turn, so if you have the potential to drop 3 lands on your turn, the third isn't going to do you any good because you won't have anything to flip. Instead, I think you want to try to trigger the first ability on each person's turn, then flip up the best stuff that you find. Creatures like Walking Atlas that allow you to tap and put a land into play allow you to manifest dread at instant speed, and having a bounce land to use with them means you will never run out of fodder for them. This would combo well with something like Seedborn Muse. Also, you named Avenger Of Zendikar as a potential big threat for the deck, and I couldn't disagree more. Avenger's strength comes from his etb, which does not trigger if he gets manifested and then flipped face up. You would need to hard cast him, and finding him off the top on a manifest dread would be a huge bummer. In general im staying away from almost all ETB effects in this deck
I agree with a lot of what you say here, I understand most people don't like removal of sol ring and is an instant pain point. Sorry about that but honestly in my opinion synergy is great than power. The reason for adding so many ways to play multiple land drops is not so we can play 6 lands on each turn its so we can find a card that gives us the effect so we can make sure each game we play we can do at least two land drops. To face down a permanent and then flip it up if need to. Like you mention the good plays are to use your fetches on opponents turns etc and that's where you extract the high power from this deck not by mindlessly dropping everything on main phase and passing turn. Tap to enter effects are great to landfall every turn as well but your land count would have to be very high to be able to do that all the time you would also need an huge amount of card draw to keep up with that effect so while it sounds great it isn't practical as you would sacrifice a lot of slots in the deck to do that consistently. The problem with this video is that i don't state my goal it's just implied and with these upgrades im looking to make the deck more consistent without changing the entirety of the deck itself; it's a loose upgrade afterall to inspire people as most people don't want the same cookie cutter deck everyone else has. If you want to see a full upgrade version I did a no budget version which runs all the fetch lands and recast them from graveyard so you can trigger land falls every turn. Also yes it sucks if you manifest away your zendikar but could say that about any card. That's part of the variance of MTG and venturing into a whole top deck manipulation to stop that takes the deck even further away from what it's trying to do. Thank you for your feedback definitely would like to hear your thoughts on the no budget version. Also please feel free to share your deck lists for her. 👍
@@Spencer4686 Won't "Tap to play a land" cards and "Play 2 lands a turn" cards both lead to you needing a high land count and losing card advantage fast? At least with the "Tap to play a land" cards you can choose what is more valuable in the moment... either more bodies on board by saving your extra land drops for your opponents turns, or flipping important cards right away on your turn. Instead of the "Play another land on your turn" cards being restricted to sorcery speed, the "Tap to play a land" cards can serve either purpose... multiple landfalls in a turn, or better board presence, or flipping at instant speed if you have more than one of them available (or if you are playing a tap land out on your opponents turn, just one of the creatures is enough to flip something at instant speed) To go with your approach of stating a goal for the deck... I would want to build this not in the direction of "Flip every single thing I find off the top, guaranteed", I would probably want to build this as "Get a big board presence of small manifests, with my opponent not knowing if they are valuable permanents or duds I found off the top. Then I can flip the good pieces I find". I have also been playing with morph / disguise creatures that have good flip abilities, so that I can get extra value off flipping them at good times. This is more a thematic choice than anything, I would definitely say I am handicapping myself trying to mess around with morph, lol. Cards I would recommend regardless of whether you are playing with morphs or not: Threats Around Every Corner - Literally made for this commander Printlifter Ooze - Get extra big, trample-y bodies for flipping your stuff face up Vannifar, Evolved Enigma - Either buff your board of face downs or get a big piece out of your hand and face down on the battlefield Experiment Twelve - Makes the stuff you flip up a bit scarier Roiling Regrowth / Entish Restoration / Harrow - Instant speed ramp that has at least 2 lands enter, meaning you can manifest and flip something on an opponents turn Grazilaxx, Illithid Scholar - Card Advantage at best, at worst you purposefully swing with an instant or sorcery that got manifested and you can bounce it back to hand so you get to cast it
I feel like keeping Yedora would be good because when creatures die they come back as lands that will trigger Zimmone's landfall and she could potentially flip them back over.
Yedora is very good if like mentioned you want to go the infinite combo route. But then we need a plan after getting all our permanents on the battlefield. Giving everything haste and swinging for combat dmg win? Or infinite dmg triggers... Just remember if you need an instant or sorcery to win make sure it's not facedown 😅
I like what you did here, makes sense. I like this precon, but im also interested in Desert Bloom from OTJ. Desert Bloom has too many damn come in tapped lands though.
Thank you, I went down the direction I felt the commander was showing me. I've not looked into the OTJ pre-cons but all pre-cons in genral need better mana bases and the upgrades for that depends so much on cost and individual preferences to how many basics you run.
I'm curious why you didn't cut any enchantments, especially Sandwurm convergence, it's cool and strong but soooo slow and doesn't really have anything to do with what the deck wants. Zimmones Hypothesis, Dig Through Time, kinda mid imo. Eureka moment sounds cool but when will you be using that to where it wouldn't be giving an opponent the largest creature? I can't imagine casting that while your own board is ahead and you just nuke it for a vanilla big boy? You'd be casting it when your opponent is the threat and you not only wipe your own board but give them the biggest benefit in the end. Also Giggling Skitterspike, very cool card and all, but doesn't really do anything for us, would rather have something like Uro or Vannifar that actually contributes to what the deck wants to do.
Am I the only one that feels like "play a second land this turn" effects are bad? I always find myself out of lands in my hand fast and end up playing 1 land a turn anyway... To me spells that place more lands tapped on board at once always felt more effective even if they are more expensive. But it's a land fall deck at the end of the day, you can afford expensive spells so why not? This way you also don't have to fill your deck with 40+ lands 💀
Depends on the deck... If you're out of lands in hand and can't trigger your land fall effects then a few more lands would definitely help after all playing lands generates you the resources you need to win both in terms of mana on board and also the landfall triggers. In this deck because of the commanders ability we want to put something face down and then flip it up for instant value so in this deck I feel multiple lands every turn is a more constant value to build up to an overwhelming board state rather than just casting a scapeshift... And someone removing your commander in response.. (sad times) Some loose maths here... 42 lands gives us about a 40% chance to make our 6th land drop naturally. If we cast commander on turn 4 that only gives us 2 triggers of the commander on separate turns that's 2 face down 2/2's . We definitely want more value off than that if we're trying to win, specifically when we know games tend to close out/end around turn 9/10.
You can find the full upgraded deck list here...
www.moxfield.com/decks/Y6pNAbsQRkyXVazfLWdvuA
Enjoy 😁
There's... A lot i disagree with here. Removal of Sol Ring is always insane, but aside from that i think you are leaning way too heavily into getting multiple landfalls a turn. You only manifest dread if its the first time the ability triggers each turn, so if you have the potential to drop 3 lands on your turn, the third isn't going to do you any good because you won't have anything to flip.
Instead, I think you want to try to trigger the first ability on each person's turn, then flip up the best stuff that you find. Creatures like Walking Atlas that allow you to tap and put a land into play allow you to manifest dread at instant speed, and having a bounce land to use with them means you will never run out of fodder for them. This would combo well with something like Seedborn Muse.
Also, you named Avenger Of Zendikar as a potential big threat for the deck, and I couldn't disagree more. Avenger's strength comes from his etb, which does not trigger if he gets manifested and then flipped face up. You would need to hard cast him, and finding him off the top on a manifest dread would be a huge bummer. In general im staying away from almost all ETB effects in this deck
I agree with a lot of what you say here, I understand most people don't like removal of sol ring and is an instant pain point. Sorry about that but honestly in my opinion synergy is great than power.
The reason for adding so many ways to play multiple land drops is not so we can play 6 lands on each turn its so we can find a card that gives us the effect so we can make sure each game we play we can do at least two land drops. To face down a permanent and then flip it up if need to. Like you mention the good plays are to use your fetches on opponents turns etc and that's where you extract the high power from this deck not by mindlessly dropping everything on main phase and passing turn.
Tap to enter effects are great to landfall every turn as well but your land count would have to be very high to be able to do that all the time you would also need an huge amount of card draw to keep up with that effect so while it sounds great it isn't practical as you would sacrifice a lot of slots in the deck to do that consistently.
The problem with this video is that i don't state my goal it's just implied and with these upgrades im looking to make the deck more consistent without changing the entirety of the deck itself; it's a loose upgrade afterall to inspire people as most people don't want the same cookie cutter deck everyone else has. If you want to see a full upgrade version I did a no budget version which runs all the fetch lands and recast them from graveyard so you can trigger land falls every turn.
Also yes it sucks if you manifest away your zendikar but could say that about any card. That's part of the variance of MTG and venturing into a whole top deck manipulation to stop that takes the deck even further away from what it's trying to do.
Thank you for your feedback definitely would like to hear your thoughts on the no budget version. Also please feel free to share your deck lists for her. 👍
@@Spencer4686 Won't "Tap to play a land" cards and "Play 2 lands a turn" cards both lead to you needing a high land count and losing card advantage fast? At least with the "Tap to play a land" cards you can choose what is more valuable in the moment... either more bodies on board by saving your extra land drops for your opponents turns, or flipping important cards right away on your turn. Instead of the "Play another land on your turn" cards being restricted to sorcery speed, the "Tap to play a land" cards can serve either purpose... multiple landfalls in a turn, or better board presence, or flipping at instant speed if you have more than one of them available (or if you are playing a tap land out on your opponents turn, just one of the creatures is enough to flip something at instant speed)
To go with your approach of stating a goal for the deck... I would want to build this not in the direction of "Flip every single thing I find off the top, guaranteed", I would probably want to build this as "Get a big board presence of small manifests, with my opponent not knowing if they are valuable permanents or duds I found off the top. Then I can flip the good pieces I find". I have also been playing with morph / disguise creatures that have good flip abilities, so that I can get extra value off flipping them at good times. This is more a thematic choice than anything, I would definitely say I am handicapping myself trying to mess around with morph, lol.
Cards I would recommend regardless of whether you are playing with morphs or not:
Threats Around Every Corner - Literally made for this commander
Printlifter Ooze - Get extra big, trample-y bodies for flipping your stuff face up
Vannifar, Evolved Enigma - Either buff your board of face downs or get a big piece out of your hand and face down on the battlefield
Experiment Twelve - Makes the stuff you flip up a bit scarier
Roiling Regrowth / Entish Restoration / Harrow - Instant speed ramp that has at least 2 lands enter, meaning you can manifest and flip something on an opponents turn
Grazilaxx, Illithid Scholar - Card Advantage at best, at worst you purposefully swing with an instant or sorcery that got manifested and you can bounce it back to hand so you get to cast it
@@Sendoria you should definitely check out the no budget version. 👌👍Might align more to your play style.
I feel like keeping Yedora would be good because when creatures die they come back as lands that will trigger Zimmone's landfall and she could potentially flip them back over.
I think you’re right, with a sac outlet that’s infinite loop.
@@BrootalMetalBanjo Altar of Dementia would just mill your opponents out if Zimmone and Yedora were out 🤔
Yedora is very good if like mentioned you want to go the infinite combo route. But then we need a plan after getting all our permanents on the battlefield. Giving everything haste and swinging for combat dmg win? Or infinite dmg triggers... Just remember if you need an instant or sorcery to win make sure it's not facedown 😅
@@BrootalMetalBanjo steve comes in the deck
I like what you did here, makes sense. I like this precon, but im also interested in Desert Bloom from OTJ. Desert Bloom has too many damn come in tapped lands though.
Thank you, I went down the direction I felt the commander was showing me.
I've not looked into the OTJ pre-cons but all pre-cons in genral need better mana bases and the upgrades for that depends so much on cost and individual preferences to how many basics you run.
I'm curious why you didn't cut any enchantments, especially Sandwurm convergence, it's cool and strong but soooo slow and doesn't really have anything to do with what the deck wants. Zimmones Hypothesis, Dig Through Time, kinda mid imo. Eureka moment sounds cool but when will you be using that to where it wouldn't be giving an opponent the largest creature? I can't imagine casting that while your own board is ahead and you just nuke it for a vanilla big boy? You'd be casting it when your opponent is the threat and you not only wipe your own board but give them the biggest benefit in the end. Also Giggling Skitterspike, very cool card and all, but doesn't really do anything for us, would rather have something like Uro or Vannifar that actually contributes to what the deck wants to do.
Yedora is one of the best cards in the deck. Combine her with Ashaya and you got a very nasty combo.
Am I the only one that feels like "play a second land this turn" effects are bad? I always find myself out of lands in my hand fast and end up playing 1 land a turn anyway...
To me spells that place more lands tapped on board at once always felt more effective even if they are more expensive. But it's a land fall deck at the end of the day, you can afford expensive spells so why not? This way you also don't have to fill your deck with 40+ lands 💀
Depends on the deck... If you're out of lands in hand and can't trigger your land fall effects then a few more lands would definitely help after all playing lands generates you the resources you need to win both in terms of mana on board and also the landfall triggers.
In this deck because of the commanders ability we want to put something face down and then flip it up for instant value so in this deck I feel multiple lands every turn is a more constant value to build up to an overwhelming board state rather than just casting a scapeshift... And someone removing your commander in response.. (sad times)
Some loose maths here...
42 lands gives us about a 40% chance to make our 6th land drop naturally.
If we cast commander on turn 4 that only gives us 2 triggers of the commander on separate turns that's 2 face down 2/2's . We definitely want more value off than that if we're trying to win, specifically when we know games tend to close out/end around turn 9/10.